Original subtitles

[footsteps approaching]

[Rick Rubin] Let's step into the light.

[bottle thuds]

- [bottles clinking] - [chair scraping]

You up for listening to a bit of music, sir?

- Let's do it. - Let's listen to something.

[♪ "Intro (The Dynasty)" playing]

Hey, that's a nice start.

- [laughing] - That's a great start.

- Man. - That's the "Intro."

[Jay-Z chuckles]

[♪ music stops]

Tell me what comes up when you hear those words.

Oh, man.

Um, just the space.

My favorite intro. Um...

This is after, like, four albums.

This is Dynasty album, which was meant to be a compilation album.

It was just like, you know, that moment of...

the realization of where you come from...

and where you're going.

You thinking like people of means

didn't have problems.

Specifically in this song,

Bill Cosby and, like, speaking of Ennis,

"keen senses ever since I was a teen on the benches,

every time somebody with Ennis was mentioned,"

- and Ennis is the name of Cosby's son. - Mm-hmm.

"I would turn green, me being in the trenches,

"him living adventurous,

not worrying about expenditures."

Like, they had no worries 'cause they had money.

And that-- that sorta-- "I would turn green," right?

- Yeah. - Me being jealous of that lifestyle.

"I'm braving temperatures below zero.

No hero, no father figure." Right? These are--

These-- This was what's going on for me in my life,

and, you know, not growing up with your-- your father.

Well, my father left around 11.

That whole thing I had to re-explore as well,

you know, the dynamic between, like,

you know, myself and my dad.

Um, but just this thought of this criminal world

that I was living in, "the theme song to The Soprano

plays in the key of life," like real life.

And it's a reference to Stevie as well, like...

And then it goes right to Stevie,

"plays in the key of life..."

- Yeah. - "...on my mental piano."

- Incredible. - Like "Stevie Wonder

with beads under the durag,"

like just making the comparison to me and Stevie.

And I always wore a durag at that time.

- Yeah. - With no waves.

- [laughing] - "Intuition is there

even when my vision's impaired."

Like, you grow up knowing what's gonna happen next.

You grow up knowing 'cause you have a sense

of if this-- these certain things happen

or these guys come into the room and they move in a certain way,

you already know how it's gonna play out.

- Mm-hmm. - Because you survived on...

your instincts.

"Intuition is there even when my vision's impaired,

knowing I can go just switching a spare,"

knowing how fragile life was.

Ennis had, uh, got murdered.

He pulled over to the side of the road,

he was switching his tire.

And these are the things that were happening at the time.

Oh, so the switching a spare is a reference to--

"Knowing I can go just switching a spare."

- I had no idea that was a reference to that. - Yeah.

"On the highway of life."

- Visually bringing those two things back. - Incredible.

And so, just drawing these parallels

of how you think, you know, Michael Jordan

and the Bill Cosbys, and all them,

you know, that their life is so much greater

'cause they have money.

You know, I know better now.

- Yeah. - Um, but you think,

"Well, if I had $100,

I wouldn't be complaining about anything."

It's like, mm.

That's not... [chuckles]

You know, everyone has problems, different problems.

- Yeah. - Every-- and I guess the whole, uh, feeling

of everyone thinking the grass is greener on the other side.

That's pretty much what that-- that intro was about,

dealing with that.

You have the reference about the-- The Sopranos,

and throughout the songs there are references

- to television, movies a lot. - Yeah. Yeah.

Would you say it's an inspiration,

or is it just a metaphor that when you say it,

it's like shorthand for the message

- that you're trying to tell? - Well, I love TV and film,

so it always-- it's always back there.

And I know it's shorthand

that if I say the theme song to The Sopranos.

- We know what that is. - We know what that is.

- Yeah. - I don't-- just move on to the next line.

You don't have to explain it and what that is.

And you talk about, "Never read the Quran or Islamic scriptures,

only Psalms written on arms," like...

So, on the arms of Biggie--

this was a reference-- Biggie, D-Roc, Lil' Cease,

they all have the same, um, Psalm scripture on their arm.

- Really? - Yeah.

They all got the same tattoos.

So, it was a reference to them.

"Only Psalms I read was on the arms of my niggas tattooed."

Like, that was my-my-my-- my, um, learning of religion,

which was a bit of exaggeration

'cause my grandfather was a preacher.

And my grandfather had his demons.

You know, a bunch of demons. He got his, um...

You know, we'll-- we'll get into that.

Where was the line of, um, exaggeration

permissible and not for you?

It was only in painting a-- a picture.

Part of my-- my rule was if it's not about me

or about something that, you know,

my friends went through, I'm not gonna say it.

- Mm-hmm. - I'm not gonna create a beautiful tale

like a Slick Rick would do.

- No fantasy. - There's no fantasy.

Even in, like, storytelling, when I made a song

like, Meet the Parents.

So, Meet the Parents was-- was this song about, um--

- if you have it there, I won't-- - We do.

- Yeah, that's-- - You wanna hear it?

Yeah.

[♪ "Meet the Parents" playing]

♪ I got y'all ♪

- [♪ music ends] - I don't know how you did that.

So, I took a real subject, "Meet the Parents,"

like, you know, my father being gone.

So many of our fathers was gone and we're always in the street.

Even our dads was in the street.

So, if you had left early enough,

you would run into yourself somewhere

and not know that that's your son,

and the possibility that you could kill your son.

- Yeah. - Because that's what was happening at the time.

So, this is actually a PSA for, like, parenthood.

'Cause you're making a point.

- Making a point. - You wanted to make a point.

I wanted to make a point.

Not just me. Forget me.

Just the whole neighborhood.

Imagine, you know, your brother died,

your father died, your [indistinct] locked up.

You start thinking...

- That's what it is. - That's what it is.

- Yeah. - There's no God coming to save us.

There's no superhero coming to save us.

This is like, I gotta do for self.

And you start hardening.

Yeah, you have the line somewhere about, uh,

church is only for atheists.

Oh, that's probably Where I'm From.

- "And the church is the flakiest..." - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

"And we been praying to God so long that we atheist."

You know, it's just like you've been asking for relief...

- Yeah. - ...from this struggle.

And, you know, you don't have the...

- spiritual maturity to know it. - Mm.

That's not how life works.

And you'd go through certain things and you never know why,

but you look back and say, "Man."

- You look back later and say-- - Yeah, makes sense.

- Makes sense. Makes sense. - Yeah.

Just from a technical standpoint,

do you start with the track, or do you ever have an idea

for a song before you hear a track?

I think with those two, because I was in the studio,

the track dictated where-- where these two went.

But it happens both ways.

- The mood of the music would inspire. - The mood. Yeah.

If you listen to my songs that have strings...

- Yeah. - ...they're all, like, super melancholy

and, like, introspective, because something about strings

make me, you know, go into, like, story-mode

and it's like... [singing melody]

On this Meet the Parents, it was like immediately,

something about it informs my brain's story.

How similar was your experience

to the experience of the kids in your neighborhood?

Very similar.

Everyone had the same experience,

except I was the one that could stand on the soapbox

and, like, articulate what we were going through.

I think that's what-- that's how I struck a chord.

- Yeah. - There's like, certain details

and certain smells to it that you couldn't know unless--

- Too specific. - It's too specific.

- Unless you were there, you couldn't know... - Yeah.

...you know, a handheld weigh scale

and what that meant, you know. You had to know.

How would you describe the hip-hop that came before

in comparison to what you were doing?

- You know, especially in the beginning... - Yeah.

...it was just the stylings of music.

Like, how-- how can I say things,

um, in a very unique way?

- Mm-hmm. - Rakim came with multi-syllables,

and then Kool G Rap said, "No, I got even more multi-syllable."

And then Kane was like, "No, but I have song structure."

- Yeah. - Obviously, Melle Mel

came and did The Message, and that was a major moment

where we were like, oh,

this could do more than just "I'm the best, I'm the best."

Do you remember when you first heard The Message?

I don't know where I was, but I do remember the feeling

and the time, you know.

My mom and pop had a huge record collection.

I actually heard-- my first rap record

was something like King Tut III

or King Tim, something like that.

King Tim or King T-- It was a green label.

- Mm-hmm. - I remember that.

My first rap record I ever heard was from my mom.

Wow.

[chuckles] Yeah, because they had--

you know, they built this wall unit.

We didn't have much money, so they had, like, milk crates,

- like iron crates. - Yeah.

And I guess this was definitely normal then, right?

- That's what you carried your records in. - Yeah.

So, they have, like, iron crates on both sides,

then took like a plywood, put it on top,

then put another set, and then put the speakers,

and then on top had like a reel-to-reel.

[Rick] Mm-hmm.

Um, I didn't even know how great that was back then.

I was just like, what's the big thing up there?

- And I never used it. - What was the music

that was playing in your house growing up?

Everything. Uh, Prince,

Michael Jackson, Stevie,

- Ohio Players. - Mm-hmm.

O'Jays, Supremes,

- Richard Pryor's albums. - Yeah. Yeah.

I heard all my curse words from Richard Pryor.

- Redd Foxx album. - Yeah, fantastic.

- Um... - I had Redd Foxx's album.

And I've said this before, but it was--

it was always fascinating to me that my parents shared kids,

but their names were on the records.

- I was like-- - Well, it tells you how much they cared about it.

Yeah. It had, like, you know, like, plastic covers.

- Yeah. - Like, everything was in its cover.

There was nothing out. You pull it out,

and a sticker was on the corner, "Lulu."

That's what we call my mother, Lil Lulu.

- Her name is Gloria Carter. - Yeah.

She had "Lulu," and then my father had "AJ."

That was his name, Adnis Reeves Jr., "AJ."

And they just had their names on every single one of their--

- That's incredible. - Their records, their vinyls.

Was that the thing of most value in your house?

- Oh, by far. - The record collection.

- Oh, by far. By far. - Yeah.

'Cause it was everything. It was the center

- of our universe. - Mm.

Everyone came to my house, right?

- 'Cause we had all the records. - Yeah.

And people would come there and party.

I remember my house being a house of sports and music.

You know, Sundays, you know, you smelled Pine-Sol

or Ajax in the-- in the house, you know,

which I kinda figured out that as well with my mom.

There was like this incessant cleaning.

Like, and it was just her trying to control her little space.

- Mm. - The whole world around her

was dirty and-- or looked down on her.

- And out of her control. - And out of her control.

And that's the thing that she can control, her household.

- Yeah. - We lived in the projects.

You know, it might be, you know, broken bottles outside

and dope needles, but in her space,

the space that she can control,

it was super clean.

- Mm. - It was always clean.

We always had like a-- a schedule

of our chores, of like, "Wednesday, you do the dishes,"

and ah, this, and "You take out the garbage

and you sweep the floor."

There were a lot of, like, angst over that

and discipline over that, I mean, my mom

was just always on me about the way I swept the floor.

She like this-- almost like this military upbringing

when it came to cleaning.

Yeah. I'm picturing it.

And then, so I would-- it was sports.

Everyone would come, they'd be cooking,

Pine-Sol cleaning, windows open and music.

- Mm. - You know, after the sports and the music start,

and then they would have like a little red light situation

in the living room where we, like, sneak out the back room

and be peeking and, you know, they rolling they little joints,

- you know, on the vinyl cover. - Yeah.

Back then, they had terrible weed,

- so it was like seeds, all the seeds in the weed. - Yeah.

So, you had to, like, take the-- the bamboo paper,

and, like, my mom would let me do this as a kid.

She trusted me as-- as an-- as an adult

really early, I think about that often.

- Why do you think that was? - I think she knew.

It was like, "He's-- he's mature enough to handle it."

Like, she-- she really trusted me.

I was away from my house at 16.

- I was in Trenton, New Jersey... - Mm.

...living away from my mom for months.

Months. Sixteen.

- Yeah. - So, I remember seeing

the Sugarhill Gang in my house

on the first time when they were on, um...

- American Bandstand, maybe? - Soul Train.

- Soul Train. - So, Soul Train.

And I remember being like...

It was odd to me.

Like, what are they doing on there?

So, that was the first time you saw people rapping?

- On TV, definitely. - But you'd seen them rapping

- in the street before? - Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

'Cause they-- we used to have, like, little block parties

where they would, like, plug into, like, the lamppost.

So, there was always, like, music outside.

Around nine is when I start, like, trying to like...

- DJ. - DJ.

I think that's everyone's entry, um...

Then, start writing. Then, I would start writing.

Around nine is when I caught the bug

of like, I remember clearly,

distinctly, like, being obsessed.

Like, write-- I would write every day.

Every day, every day, writing, just writing, just writing.

And would you write rhymes, or would you write songs?

- I would write rhymes. - Rhymes.

- I didn't really understand song structure... - Yeah.

...or anything like that yet, just long--

- Just cool rhymes. - Long raps, yeah.

And I wrote so much that my mom bought me this, uh,

green little-- I wish I had it-- this green little, um, binder.

It was almost like it was-- it was made.

It was like, you know, big gold, um, paperclips,

I guess is what you call 'em when you bend 'em over.

- Mm-hmm. - They would come through,

and had, like, three of those.

And the-- and the sheets of paper

didn't have lines on it.

So, like, the songs would be like sideways,

the whole thing, like, they had no structure.

And then, I would write really small--

- So it was like drawing paper... - Yeah.

- ...more than writing paper. - Drawing paper.

- It was drawing paper, yeah. - Yeah.

And I would just write and write, and then just--

You know, I had this thing about people seeing what I wrote,

so I would write really small and then I'd cross it out,

and write, like, almost like in a decoded way

so only I can, like, read it.

When did you start memorizing instead of writing it down?

So, say from nine to 15...

just wrote and wrote.

Once I got to Trenton, I was in the streets then.

It was way different.

- Tell me about it. - From nine to 15, I'm home.

- Yeah, writing. - I'm writing and going to talent shows

and writing with Jaz.

When did you meet Jaz? How old were you?

I wanna say right before I left.

- Fifteen-ish? - Yeah.

And we met 'cause everyone was like, "This new guy is really good."

And it was like, "No, this guy's the best in the projects."

And we were meant to battle, and, you know,

it was like a mutual respect.

He was like, "Man, he is good."

And we just started, like, writing together.

- Then it was just-- - Yeah, talk about battling a little bit,

'cause that's an interesting part of the culture.

- Yeah. - Rap battles.

You had to prove that you were good enough

to get on the-- the mic at block parties.

You know, like at the block party,

they ain't gonna just throw somebody up there.

You-- you know, you could ruin the vibe of the party.

- Yeah. - Like, any DJ wanna make sure

that the MC saying something really good

- while he's playing music for me. - Yeah, so it was like a--

- It was like a tryout almost. - Yeah. Yeah.

You had to battle to be like, "Oh, he's the best one.

He can go up there."

So, there's no rap records yet.

- This is a local-- - There are rap records,

but it's not, like-- it's not ubiquitous.

They're like, like I said-- it's King Tut III

- and Jimmy Spicer. - And one independent record.

- Yes, yeah. It had-- - Yeah, not anything you'd hear

- on the radio ever. - No radio.

I remember when Hot 97 turned over

- from like a Latin station. - Yeah.

I was in the car with my-- my cousin Briant.

- Yeah. - We call him "Bee-High."

And um, he was like, "Yo, this-- this thing

is turning all rap at noon,"

- or whatever time it-- - How shocking was that?

- It was unbelievable. - I mean, coming from

the most, uh, fringe...

- Yes, yeah. Yeah. - ...small underground movement.

- Yeah, you had to find a club. - Yeah. Or I remember

if I wanted to buy a 12-inch, I had to go to the Bronx.

- Brad's Record Den in the Bronx... - Yeah.

- ...was the only place that sold records. - Wow, yeah.

- That's incredible. Yeah. - Yeah, it was a real underground movement.

- Yeah. - And it feels like

any of the people who started loving it then...

there couldn't have been any aspiration attached to it...

- Right. - ...because there was no upside.

- Exactly. - You only did this

- 'cause you loved it. - Yeah, although...

- Tell me. - The minute I realized,

"Oh, this is a business," was like '88, '89.

- Yeah, that makes sense. - And, you know, Kane and them were out,

but I'm saying, Jaz got a deal

- with EMI Records. - Mm-hmm.

And because EMI didn't h-have rap,

they didn't-- they had The O'Jays and things like that,

they didn't know to treat him like a rapper.

So, they gave him a-- a recording budget

for $400,000.

And when he told me, I was like... "What?"

- [laughing] - "$400,000 to do this? To rap?"

How hard would you have to work to earn $400,000...

- I know. - ...in the actual world

- at that point in time? - Exactly, yeah.

- I mean... - Not doable, right?

- Well... - Difficult.

You had to be in the underworld, right?

- That can happen there. - Yeah.

You had to risk your life daily and risk your freedom.

- Yes. - You know, there's legends

in the street that people "celebrate"

- for, like, being kingpins... - Yes.

...that's never seen $400,000, for sure.

Most people at the end of their run

would've been better with a, like, a-- a regular job.

The amount of hours, like, you just standing out there.

- It was no nine to five. - If you amortize the hours...

- Yeah. - ...the potential downside...

- Exactly. - ...it's not worth it.

- It's not worth it. It really isn't. - Yeah.

It's worth it for maybe 1% of the people.

It sounds like you didn't choose it.

It was what was available.

Yeah. It was like air.

It was everywhere. It was the path.

- Yeah. - You know, and before you get to map your life out,

the street says, "Come here.

"Your mom doesn't have groceries.

"Your lights is out. You didn't have heat last week.

You had to turn off the heat to keep the lights on."

That's what my mom was doing. So, what she would do

is like, say, "Okay, what could be sacrificed this month?"

- Yeah. - Rent has to be paid.

Right? And even sometimes she would--

they would do a thing where you go three months out

and then they would take you to court

and then you would pay, but you got the three months.

You-- you got the three months where you can...

You know, my mom was a hustler. She was trying to figure out

how to-- how to make this thing work for four kids.

My mom had four kids before she was 20.

- I'm the last at 20. - Wow.

And I look at that saying,

man, I don't even know how to manage that.

Four children at 20.

So, the streets grab you for that.

Like, you're not gonna help your mom?

You gonna let you-- what, you watching your mom

struggle like this? And, you know,

go do something. Like, be a man.

And there was no one else offering any other kind of jobs?

No, no, there was no other kind of job.

But we had, like, summer jobs.

A couple hundred dollars,

- couldn't be more than that, you know. - Yeah.

So, you were talking earlier about Trenton.

- We-- I-- I interrupted you. - So--

Let's go back to the difference in living in Trenton...

- Mm-hmm. - ...versus living at Marcy.

So, Marcy was this-- this environment

from nine to 15 where I did some hustling.

But it was-- I was mostly focused on music.

Once I got to Trenton, we were living

in a friend of mine's aunt's house,

and the freedom we had was unbelievable.

- No parents. - We're like, living like adults.

And we were in and out hustling, paying all the bills

in her house as well.

So, I got further away from music.

So, the little boy that was sitting at the table

writing every day, I had no time.

But because I trained my mind to work like that.

You know, it's like anything else,

three o'clock, these thoughts are coming back,

'cause at three o'clock,

I'm typically at the table writing.

But now, I'm outside and I'm like,

oh, I got a really good line.

I gotta mem-- uh, let me memorize this.

Now, to memorize this, I gotta hold onto it.

And, you know, at first I start, you know,

I couldn't and I would lose, like, I was like, dang,

I know I had a really good line. What was it?

It was... it was...

And, you know, like, whole songs I've lost like that.

- I mean, unbelievable material. - I bet. I bet.

I've-- I've just-- just gone.

- Yeah. - At some point, I was like,

you know what, I'm gonna go in the store.

I was outside on the corners and things like that.

So, I would go in the store and write the idea

and then, like, ball the paper up and put it in my pocket.

I wonder if it worked as a form of,

I'll call it therapy.

Like, if you're in a stressful situation...

and you have this other thing you're doing...

- Mm-hmm. - You know what I'm saying?

- Yeah, of course, yeah. - You're occupying yourself...

- Yeah. Yeah. - ...with something that's not this scary thing...

- Yeah, yeah. - ...happening out here.

- But, "I have this other life in my head." - Yeah.

I never thought about it like that.

That's-- That's-- That's, you know...

I see that clear and I-- I recognize that.

Thank you for that.

I-- I thought-- how I saw it was, it was an exercise.

Like, I built up my mind...

- I see. - ...and memorized these things.

But I guess it was therapy.

It was a distraction from what was happening in my real life,

the danger of what was happening.

Like, anyone could pull up, you know.

It could be a shootout, it could be a robbery.

It could be the jump out, police,

which was often the case. [chuckles]

- Yeah. - You know, it wasn't like the police

wasn't running down on us all the time.

And then, you know, again,

we started having more and more success.

We started-- I moved further and further away

from that pen, that pad. So, from Trenton,

then we started moving into our own places.

And then we start, you know, going further.

Then, I went to Cambridge, Maryland.

And then, I went to Virginia. It was like I was getting

further and further away from this notepad.

- Yeah. - You know?

Um, so that's what, 11 years of your life.

- Yeah. - Big.

Yeah. Big danger and big risk.

So, it sounds like you always were planning

on coming back to music at some point.

- Yeah. - Even when you were on-- on the corner.

Yeah.

Yeah, at some point, like, there became a thing

where hustlers was making so much money

that rappers was corny.

So, I almost had to hide the fact

that I wanted to be a rapper.

It was like, you wanna be-- look at those guys.

Like, you know, and then we would, like, go to shows,

and, like, uh, rappers would pull up

in like, Turtle Tops and minivans,

and we was coming with, like, 4Runners

and Lexus, and Acuras, and, like, "You wanna do that?

- We already doing this, like..." - Yeah.

"That-- that seems like a step backwards."

In fact, my first record, Can't Knock the Hustle,

I really was talking to the hustlers,

"Who do you think you are? Maybe one day you'll be a star."

- Yeah. - That was the feeling of,

I wanted to be a rapper, and the hustlers

looked down upon being a rapper at that time.

Yeah.

[♪ "Can't Knock the Hustle" playing]

- It's fun. - Yeah, this is great.

- Yeah, thank you. - ♪ Check, check, yo ♪

♪ I'm taking out this time ♪

♪ To give you a piece of my mind ♪

♪ Who do you think you are? ♪

♪ Baby, one day you'll be a star ♪

♪ Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah ♪

♪ But until then, lately ♪

Is the first record?

- Yeah. Yeah. [chuckles] - Amazing.

♪ 'Cause that's the way you're making me feel ♪

[Jay-Z] I remember the feeling being like rap is my hustle.

- Hustling was my job. - [Rick] Yeah.

- "Don't Knock the Hustle" being about rap. - [Jay-Z] Yeah.

- [Rick] Yeah. - [Jay-Z] Yeah.

I remember hearing that you wanted your first album

- to be your only album. - Yeah.

- That was your original plan. - Yeah.

- Tell me about that. - I don't know where that thought

came from, but it was-- it was serious for me.

- I had these goals. - Yeah.

I'll have one record, it'll go gold.

- I see. - And that'll be it.

And then I'll have this company.

I've always thought like a-- like a businessman.

- Mm-hmm. - You know, it was like I was fighting the artist.

I didn't love being an artist. I didn't like shooting videos.

I didn't like interviews. I didn't like speaking.

- Yeah. - I was pretty much an introvert.

This was the way I spoke.

I would never talk like that if you were sitting around me.

People that sat around me was like...

Go look it up. Everyone says, "He was so quiet.

He never said anything, bah, bah, bah."

I would never talk, like, in those days.

I would never have a conversation.

You know, it-- and it was part of the, you know...

my job.

You're not talking to people, keep yourself sane,

stay in the shadows.

You a hustler and you gonna be on TV?

- That goes against everything. "Who are you?" - Yeah, just the opposite.

There's no early footage of me.

I would never let any cameras come around me.

- Mm. - Film me?

Oh, no, we gonna have a fight.

Like, there's gonna be a problem filming me.

Yeah, so everything I was doing was...

counterintuitive to how I lived.

And I didn't-- I didn't like...

the music business.

I wanted to do it 'cause I had a dream

and I had a talent to do it, but I didn't--

- I didn't wanna be in-- - Yeah.

You didn't aspire to be an artist.

I didn't aspire to be an artist.

Yeah. So, I was like, I'm gonna do this

and then I'll have a company,

and, you know, I'll be Russell Simmons.

- [chuckles] Yeah. - Yeah. And then, another last album.

When you did The Black Album,

it was-- you were planning on retiring at that point, too.

I think that was more just exhaustion.

I just was at-- from '96,

'97, another album.

- '98, another album. - Every year.

'99. Every year, a album. In between, features on this,

movie soundtracks here,

shows, tours in between.

It was like this nonstop pace of recording and making music.

And I had never stopped to say, I'm not actually living.

I had fun. Don't get me wrong.

- But it's work. - And it was always work.

It's fun, but you don't have a choice.

- Yeah. - Because you showed up.

Never missed a show. Never was late.

Always just on time, always just nonstop work ethic

and just always creating.

You know, and I went too far with it.

And-- and I really felt like in my heart I was like,

you know how you get that-- those feelings like, I'm done.

I'm done with this. I gotta do something else.

I don't wanna just make music just to make music.

And what do I have to say?

I think a better thing in hindsight

would have been just to step away.

You know, and I didn't-- I didn't step away for long.

It came right back, maybe like two years later.

Would you say you write all the time?

Yeah. Yeah.

What will inspire?

Will it be a thought or will it be something in the world?

What inspires something to come?

Life.

Life, wherever I am at that moment, like--

It might start with a phrase or a thought?

A phrase, a saying.

- Yeah. - Or something.

It's just like everyday, like, life inspiring you.

♪ Turn the music up, turn me down ♪

[♪ "What More Can I Say" playing]

That's incredible.

♪ What more can I say ♪

So, in this song, first verse is like, um,

"I'm not a biter, I'm a writer for myself and others.

I say a B.I.G. verse, I'm only bigging up my brother."

Biggie Smalls, who had passed at that time.

You know, and a song on Volume One,

I say, "I'm gonna make sure a world with no thing

remember your name."

So, part of it was like paying homage

and, like, saying, like, little bits and pieces

of, uh, B.I.G.'s song.

And then, it became this thing of, like, me--

out of all the songs I made,

you know, that I was taking Biggie Smalls

to create my career.

And I address it on this song.

And I thought about it, I'm like, "Man, rap and music

is based on homage, and samples, and--"

- Absolutely. - So, what am I talking about?

I remember the first time I heard that happen,

Snoop had done La Di Da Di over.

And I was like, "This is really good.

- Can he do that?" - Cover song.

We never cover songs, like, in hip-hop.

You know, they do it all the time in country

- and rock, et cetera, et cetera. - Can you say the words?

- Of this song? - Yeah.

- Tell me the verse. - On What More Can I Say?

"Never had a nigga done good this long,

"this hood or this pop, this hot or this strong,

"with so many different flows. This one's for this song.

The next one I switch up. This one will get bit up."

- I mean, there's so many people... - Yeah.

...that say all my lyrics, like...

In defense of myself, there's, like...

- Yeah. [laughing] - ...way more of my lyrics and people--

"This one to get bit up.

"These fucks too lazy to make up shit.

"They crazy. They don't paint pictures.

"They just trace me. You know what?

"Soon they forget where they pluck their whole style from,

"then try to reverse the outcome,

"I'm like, 'Tah.'

- [laughing] - "I'm not a biter, I'm a writer

"for myself and others.

"I say a B.I.G. verse, I'm only bigging up my brother,

"Bigging up my borough, I'm big enough to do it.

"I'm that thorough, plus I know

my own flow is foolish. So them rings--"

- And there's a B.I.G. verse. Then you go... - Yeah.

"The rings and things you sing about, bring 'em out."

Is it different, um, recalling words

when you don't hear the music?

Mm, it's a good question.

I never thought about that.

I guess-- I guess the music would help a bit.

Um, but nah, I just--

I hadn't heard that in so long, like...

How long did you have to start preparing to do that?

- Like, if you know you have a show coming up... - Yeah.

...and not doing it for four years, how long do you start--

I'm supposed to do it a month ahead, but I never do.

- [laughing] - I always wait till the last week.

It's just something about it, like something--

some-- some kind of freshness to it when I'm...

nervous about not knowing the next line.

Let's talk about that. Would you say that pressure...

makes you better or undermines you?

I definitely run towards the pressure.

- Even when we did Unplugged with Quest and The Roots... - Yeah.

...we didn't rehearse till the day before.

And he was like, "What are you doing?"

I'm like, something about it, like just--

it-- it's something about it that makes you play.

- You're not acting. - Yeah, you're living it.

- It's-- it's the moment. - You're living it, you haven't--

you haven't rehearsed it so much that you're just...

'Cause if I know it so much, I'm gonna check out.

My mind wanders.

You have a way that works for you, so it's--

- Yeah. - There is no right or wrong way.

- Yeah. Yeah. - It's-- the beauty is finding the way that works.

Also, when the last song started, it starts with,

"Turn the music up, turn me down."

And normally, on most records,

you wouldn't get to hear that. You wouldn't get to hear

the instructions to the engineer.

- And it gives it much more of a documentary feeling of... - Yeah.

...this is really happening right now, this is live.

- Yeah. - And you do it on many songs.

Yeah, yeah. Having full conversation.

"Turn the lights up." And that was, like, real conversation.

- I know. I know. - [chuckles] Yeah.

When was the idea like,

"I'm gonna keep this in the record"?

I don't even know. I-- I feel like the first--

Was there a decision made or did it just happen at first?

It just-- I think it just happened, I think--

I think around Hard Knock Life,

because I was really going through the drums,

like, "Turn the drums down. Turn-- take the bass out."

'Cause I wanted to rap over just the drums.

- Yeah. - Okay, and it was like,

"Maybe not, put the bass back in."

- Like, and I'm really trying to find the space. - Yeah.

- And it just dropped so good. - Yeah.

It's the first time I remember. It could have been before that.

- Mm-hmm. - But that's the first time I remember

leaving in, like, the talk.

- Yeah, the direction. Yeah. - Yeah.

Well, then back to B.I.G., one of my favorite applications

of this is a song called Victory.

Biggie is talking.

[singsong] "Your time won't last forever."

[mumbling indistinctly] "Turn the music up.

No, sir, I need that shit knocking."

- I'm like... [chuckles] - Amazing.

- Yeah. - Amazing.

[♪ "Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)" playing]

♪ Take the bass line out ♪

♪ Uh-huh ♪

♪ Jigga ♪

♪ Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh, yeah, let it bump though ♪

♪ It's a hard knock life for us ♪

♪ It's a hard knock life for us ♪

♪ Instead of treated, we get tricked ♪

♪ Instead of kisses, we get kicked ♪

- ♪ It's a hard knock life ♪ - ♪ From standing on the corners boppin' ♪

♪ To driving some of the hottest cars New York has ever seen ♪

♪ For dropping some of the hottest verses rappers ever heard ♪

♪ From the dope spot with the smoke Glock ♪

♪ Fleeing the murder scene, you know me well ♪

♪ From nightmares of a lonely cell, my only hell ♪

♪ But since when y'all niggas know me to fail, fuck naw ♪

♪ Where all my niggas with the rubber grips, bust shots ♪

♪ And if you with me, mama, rub on your tits and whatnot ♪

♪ I'm from the school of the hard knocks, we must not ♪

♪ Let outsiders violate our blocks and my plot ♪

♪ Let's stick up the world and split it 50/50, uh-huh ♪

♪ Let's take the dough and stay real jiggy, uh-huh ♪

♪ And sip the Cris and get pissy-pissy, flow infinitely ♪

♪ Like the memory of my nigga Biggie, baby ♪

♪ You know it's hell when I come through ♪

♪ The life and times of Shawn Carter, nigga, volume two ♪

- ♪ Y'all nigga's been ready ♪ - ♪ It's a hard knock life for us ♪

♪ It's a hard knock life for us ♪

♪ Instead of treated, we get tricked ♪

♪ Instead of kisses, we get kicked ♪

♪ It's a hard knock life ♪

♪ I flow for those 'dro'ed out ♪

♪ All my niggas locked down in the 10 by four ♪

♪ Controlling the house, we live in hard knocks... ♪