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We are about 4 miles away from where Kevin Lee was murdered.

As you can see, it's a very rural area.

It's very quiet.

His body was found here in the ditch.

He was face down roughly where that tire is.

His buttocks and his legs were exposed.

And he was wearing a woman's cocktail dress.

Joanne Dennehy shocked the nation

after going on a 10 day killing spree in March 2013.

You've got a female serial killer who's also a mother.

And that is rare.

You think you know that person, but actually you don't.

But I didn't expect murder.

Dennehy stored his body in a wheelie bin

before dumping it.

The fact that they're all male victims is not random.

She wanted men.

There's a fantasy there, being the one with the power.

The one with the control.

Joanne Dennehy was driven by a blood lust.

This was a woman who enjoyed killing.

She has become one of Britain's

most notorious female killers.

It still remains one of the most shocking crimes

that has ever been committed by a woman in this country.

She started stabbing me in the chest.

I fell to the ground.

And as I lay there, I thought,

this is where I'm going to die.

It's absolutely the right thing that she won't come out of prison.

In my view, she is truly a psychopath.

So many horrible men and women

out there have committed terrible crimes.

But she stands head and shoulders above the rest of them.

Joanne Dennehy was just pure evil.

She belongs in hell.

May she rot in hell.

What made her change into somebody

who wants to go around stabbing men to death?

What compels her to do that?

What is going through her head to do that?

She wants the world to be scared of her.

"I've done many things to many people.

But I do not regret killing them."

And then she's signed it with a star.

Three men murdered.

Their bodies dumped in two ditches near Peterborough in March 2013.

And one woman, Joanna Dennehy,

admitted stabbing them all to death.

In my investigations of many, many murders,

and many, many murderers, Joanna Dennehy is the most cold,

callous, calculated, manipulative offender

that I've ever had to deal with.

My work involves looking at the childhood of an individual.

Looking at their early years environment

and what's happened in that environment

to lead them to the place that they're at now.

I think it's important that we understand

where criminal behaviours come from.

If we don't understand the trajectories

that lead people towards crime,

how can we ever prevent this happening again in society?

Joanne was born in St. Albans in Hertfordshire in 1982.

She grew up in Harpenden,

which is a leafy, lovely, friendly,

quite expensive middle-class area.

Her father was quite a strict disciplinarian to a point.

Her mother was a doting loving mother.

The school Joanne went to is a really lovely school.

She played lots of sport.

She was in the netball team.

She learned musical instruments.

Her family had really high hopes for her.

They were hoping that she would go on to university

and maybe even pursue law as a career.

She had, by all accounts, a very normal childhood.

She was very much that blonde, blue eyed, beautiful,

you know, happy go lucky girl.

And at what point did she turn?

We tend to have this age-old debate in criminology

as to whether individuals are born evil.

The reality of the matter is there's no killing gene.

A child's upbringing is fundamental to who they become as an adult.

And in this case, there could have been significant trauma

in her childhood for her to have developed

into the person that she's been.

And that's not to say that her family even knew about it.

Their experience might have been of a happy childhood.

But her experience clearly was not.

And that's how she's ended up maturing

into the person that she has matured into.

Joanne started using drugs and alcohol when she was 13.

She fell in with some fairground workers that came to her town.

And she started shoplifting, drinking alcohol,

and taking heavy drugs with them.

A young vulnerable schoolgirl.

Effectively, she's being groomed by these men.

Taking drugs and alcohol will damage the brain at any age.

But when the brain is developing and evolving,

it can cause irreparable damage.

She started bunking off school.

And that's when things started to take a turn for the worse.

She suddenly became out of control.

So her parents tried to rein her in.

And the more they tried to rein her in,

the more out of control that she got.

She rebelled.

It was only within a space of a couple of years

that she'd gone from allegedly being a very happy child,

everything being quite calm and stable

and functional at home to then suddenly,

getting involved with drink and drugs,

spending time and associating with older people

who were not a healthy influence on her.

When she was 15, she entered into a relationship

with a man who was five years older than her at the time.

I'm John Treanor,

and I was in a relationship with Joanna Dennehy

for about 10, 11 years.

I met Jo in 1997.

It was my dog.

The dog drew her over.

I had a lovely German shepherd called Bonnie.

And I used to take her up to the park each day.

Play football. Throw sticks.

As a teenager, Joanne was bright.

And she was very confident and very outgoing,

whereas John was a little bit more reserved and introverted.

And actually, those qualities that Joanne had

of being the outgoing, extroverted person

was what drew him to her.

She was bubbly. Funny.

I would've pretty much done anything for her.

You know what I mean?

Her parents were really against her being with John.

They didn't like her going out with somebody five years older than her.

They thought that he was a bad influence on her.

They accepted me for a little while.

Well, put up with me, shall we say.

I was never good enough for their daughter.

I think it's significant that she's entered

into a relationship with an older man.

Why was she seeking out a relationship

with someone older than her?

I think she was probably looking for safety, security.

Jo didn't want to be at home anymore with her mum and dad.

She felt restricted.

So that's how we ended up homeless.

That was probably about a year.

Sleeping in forests and tents and train stations.

Trying to make sure that we were fed.

Somewhere to sleep.

I hated it.

But she loved it.

I just wanted to be in somewhere secure.

That was just my drive.

I didn't want to be doing what we were doing.

It's not me.

The escape, the living on floorboards,

the stealing, the shoplifting for booze

was natural to her by now because she'd been led astray

by these fairground workers.

I found being homeless very, very difficult.

But for her, it wasn't.

The freedom of just doing what she wanted to do.

Like, she didn't have to conform to anybody.

And I guess that's what it was.

In 2013, I was a detective superintendent.

And I was the head of the major crime unit for Cambridgeshire Constabulary.

My first involvement with this case occurred

on the 29th of March.

I was at home in the evening.

I had a phone call from one of my senior detectives

to say that some uniform colleagues had referred a missing

from home inquiry to him

because there was some suspicious circumstances.

Kevin Lee was a married man.

Resident of Peterborough.

He ran a business known as Quick Let,

which in essence was a number of properties.

And he used to rent those to people largely

who had their rent paid by the benefits system.

Kevin Lee's family were concerned

because he didn't return home when he was expected to.

So they went out looking for him.

They went to Rolleston Garth,

where they knew that Quick Let had a property.

And whilst there, one of the family members saw

what they thought was Kevin's car leave the area at speed.

They tried to follow it.

They lost it at some traffic lights.

And about 25 minutes later, that car was reported burning

on a drove just outside of Yaxley, near Peterborough.

Many cars that are set on fire are set on fire by criminals

because they've been involved in activity

and they want to destroy any forensic evidence associated with it.

Uniformed police officers started to make some inquiries

in relation to his last known movements.

That obviously took them to Rolleston Garth.

So they secured entry to those premises.

And immediately were concerned

because they did find some blood spots within the property.

As a result, preserved that particular property as a crime scene.

On the morning of Saturday, the 30th of March,

a man walking his dog on Middle Road in Newburgh,

a remote village on the north side of Peterborough,

discovered a body in a ditch next to some farmland.

The identity of the individual

in the ditch wasn't immediately apparent.

But obviously, there were some inquiries going on to find Kevin Lee.

So there was one eye on the fact

that this individual could have been Kevin.

So we are in Middle Road in Newborough.

As you can see, it's a very rural area.

It's very quiet.

And for that reason, I suspect it was the ideal site

for them to deposit a body.

The body was found here in the ditch.

He was faced down roughly where that tyre is.

His buttocks and his legs were exposed.

And he was wearing a woman's cocktail dress.

Once the body was recovered from Newburgh

and identified as Kevin Lee, then we clearly were

in the realms of a murder investigation.

It is not just a murder and a body being dumped.

There's a lot more at play there.

A man put in a dress.

The way he was positioned.

The way he was left humiliated,

with the dress pulled up and his bottom on show.

Ultimately, there's a hugely psychological component

to that murder.

I would imagine a police officer will be terrified at that

and where that's going to end.

In 1999, when Joanne was just 17,

she and John moved in together in a council flat in Milton Keynes.

And it was here that she fell pregnant

with their first child.

On the surface, it looked like she was starting

to build a life for herself.

Starting to build a family.

Things looked okay.

Me personally, I've always wanted to be "2point4 Children."

You know what I mean?

Both have a job. Have holidays.

That was me.

We spoke about it.

And I think that was her as well.

But it wasn't real.

I think she was quite good at feeding me crap.

And I swallowed it.

I was quite gullible, to be perfectly honest.

When she was pregnant with her first child,

Joanne actually seemed to turn a corner.

She stopped the drinking and the drugs.

And it seemed that she was really making an effort

to turn her life around for her future child.

Once she was born, it became apparent

that I'm the sole carer doing everything,

while she does what she wants to do.

It started to go downhill really quite quickly.

It does speak to the fact that she's so consumed

with what's going on in her own mind.

I wonder if there's even space in there

to accommodate the needs of an infant, really.

I mean, she's 17 years old.

I don't think she was able to.

She's too busy trying to survive herself.

I was more than happy to bring up my daughter.

You know, it's like you go out and do what you need to do.

And I will make sure that these are good.

Because she didn't have that want to do that,

if that makes sense.

A lot of people have said she seemed

to lack a maternal instinct and didn't have that warm,

compassionate care that a mother really is expected to have.

She was playful.

Sometimes too playful, I thought.

Like, please, don't throw them on the sofa like that.

She was still drinking.

Like, she would wake up in the morning,

still needing to have her beers and whatnot.

It was all action for her.

When my daughter was younger,

she would've seen it as the only mother time she's getting.

And the things that she did with her were not correct.

So she would've seen it as fun.

I didn't.

It sounds more like a sibling relationship, doesn't it,

than a mother-child relationship.

She's emotionally immature, you know.

And that's what this demonstrates.

After the birth of her first daughter,

Joanne quickly returned to her old ways.

She began drinking again.

And, really, it seemed like she lost interest

in being a mother.

It's quite possible she didn't have the the best

of times as a young child,

for whatever reason that might have been, that having a baby

of her own would've been triggering for her.

If she's been taking a lot of drink and drugs

for the previous four years, from the age of 13,

she won't have been processing anything healthily.

So she'll have had four years of experiences,

and who knows what kind of experiences they were,

with the types of people that she was around,

that she also hasn't processed.

So then she stops drinking.

And during the pregnancy, she would've had all

of these things popping back up in her mind.

And naturally, the first thing she would want

to do after her pregnancy is

to block these things out as soon as she could.

And that's why she's gone back to the drink and drugs.

In a bid to get their relationship back on track

and really make things work between them,

Joanne and John actually moved away from Milton Keynes in 2001.

We moved to King's Lynn.

And she got a job working the land,

picking the veg and stuff,

while I did looking after my daughter.

It was going all right for the first few weeks.

And then she started coming home without wages.

And she started coming home really late.

And then not for the night.

And it was all drink fueled.

And she started being paid in alcohol.

She turned up on one of the days from work.

She walked through the door absolutely smashed

out of her face with two bottles of vodka

and some stolen clothes and stuff that she'd been paid in.

And I'm like, well, this isn't going to feed my daughter.

It's only feeding you.

And it kind of led to a bit of an argument.

And she just went off it

and smashed the bottle of vodka in the kitchen

while we were in there.

And off she went and I didn't see her again.

I think it's hard for someone like her

to be a loving mother and partner

because she's too lost in her own chaos.

You know, the drug addictions,

what's going on in her own mind.

She hasn't got the capacity to think about the needs of others.

She can barely look after herself.

Joanne then disappeared for 18 months.

Didn't see her daughter.

I didn't know where she was at all.

Within that time, Joanna was arrested

for a violent, vicious, assault.

She ended up in prison

and then sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

And she was diagnosed

as having a very serious personality disorder.

Joanne was diagnosed with

antisocial psychopathic personality disorder.

People with antisocial personality disorder

don't care about society's rules.

They tend to be quite prevalent

with individuals that are quite angry,

that are full of aggression,

that display impulsive behavior.

People with psychopathic personalities tend

to have impaired empathy and remorse.

They tend to externalize any accountability.

They're bold, disinhibited, and egocentric.

And if you have a sensitive brain chemistry

and you are already dysregulated

and already emotionally unstable,

anything that has the capacity

to affect your mood will have a destabilising effect.

Therefore, drink and drugs in somebody

with a disorder like Joanne's is likely

to have more of an effect on them

than it would on somebody who doesn't have that diagnosis.

Towards the end of that 18 months, I got a letter sent.

I ignored it.

Said I didn't want it.

A few weeks later, there's another one turned up.

So I thought, "Oh, all right, I'll open it."

And it was basically saying she's in prison.

And she's on tablets to help with this, this, and this.

Would I come and see her?

So I went and visited her.

When she came out of prison,

Joanne was begging John to take her back.

And he ended up agreeing

and giving the relationship with her another go.

I just wanted my daughter to have a mother.

So we got her back to normal.

It was relatively normal for a year.

And then we were pregnant.

And honestly, I will never, ever, ever forget her

coming out of the doctors' and storming straight past me

with the worst look on her face.

Like, "I'm pregnant" and stormed off.

You know, she wanted five kids in that period of normal.

She's like, "Oh, we should have five kids."

Blah, blah, blah.

So we talked about it and then she found out

and it was like the whole world had ended.

And for me, I'm like, I'm ecstatic.

And it's hard to be happy when the other person's not.

Despite her misgivings about falling pregnant again,

Joanne gave up the drink and the drugs.

And she tried really hard to stay as healthy as possible

and provide the best chance for her second daughter.

However, it wasn't that long

after her second daughter was born that actually,

Joanne was back to her old ways again.

She got invited to a party on a Sunday for the little kiddies.

And she hadn't drunk for, oh God,

so she'd done the nine months pregnancy

and probably about seven or eight months of Saff being born.

And she went to this party and it all changed.

Because she went and had a drink.

And it just went downhill straight away from that moment.

Often, people with personality disorder

have self-defeating characteristics,

where even if life seems to be going relatively stable,

they will act in ways to derail that.

She had all the freedom to go and better herself.

But actually, she was just damaging herself.

Probably the best thing she's ever done

for both of the children is not drink

and smoke while she was pregnant.

But she couldn't do it once they come out.

She couldn't just be their mum and do it normally.

It wasn't in her.

Drink, the alcohol, it changes people.

That's what changed her, for sure.

The bingeing of it.

The amount she would consume.

It would ruin anyone.

She wasn't really interested in being a mum.

It wasn't exciting enough for her.

She was much more interested in going out

and doing her own thing

and seeking excitement all the time.

I mean, I've heard all sorts.

Like, she's having sex with two men in a graveyard

or she's pummeled somebody's head off a kerb at a pub

or all sorts of stuff.

And, yeah. Self-harming.

I caught her going into my bathroom and she'd done one up her arm.

And I'm like, "What the hell are you doing?"

Self-harm, in its most serious forms,

like Joanne's self-harm was,

usually means that someone's dealing

with internal rage and pain that is absolutely intolerable.

And they just cannot deal with it.

And they inflict the pain back on themselves.

You can't tell what somebody's thinking.

You don't know where they're going.

You're in a relationship.

You think you know that person, but actually, you don't.

As much as she puts on the bravado

of being this really strong, scary person,

I think she's actually quite vulnerable underneath it all.

Because a strong person who doesn't care about anything

wouldn't feel the need to cut themselves.

Wouldn't feel the need to obliterate themselves with drink and drugs.

It just kind of progressed and got worse.

The things that she did as time went on.

But I didn't expect murder.

The background inquiries that were conducted

in relation to Kevin's life did establish

that he had been in a sexual relationship

with Joanna Dennehy for some months prior to his death.

Kevin Lee was last seen alive

by an associate of his near to Rolleston Garth.

During that interaction,

Kevin Lee told this individual that Dennehy wanted him

to dress up in a woman's dress as she'd fantasised

about raping a man dressed in that way.

The longer that investigation went on,

the more Joanne came to the fore.

This was kind of galvanized by phone data work,

which did identify some interaction

between Kevin Lee's phone and Joanne Dennehy's phone.

But also, that's when Gary Stretch started

to feature prominently as well.

Gary Stretch is a very distinctive individual.

He's a very large man. He's seven foot three.

He was somebody who had a very extensive criminal history.

Largely associated with offenses of dishonesty.

Some of violence.

He was a burglar.

And not a very successful burglar at that.

Because, as one of the police officers told me,

that when he would climb through a window,

his feet would follow about 10 minutes later.

He has got an extremely low IQ.

And he falls in with Joanne Dennehy.

And she manipulates Gary Stretch.

And he becomes her minder.

Her protector.

Joanne Dennehy and Gary Stretch were identified

as key individuals that we wanted to speak to

in relation to Kevin Lee's death.

As a consequence, on Sunday the 31st of March,

officers went to an address in Bifield in Autumn Gold Hay.

This is the address which we believe

that Joanne Dennehy had been living at.

By the time police got to the house, Joanne wasn't there.

The property was searched.

And in the rear garden,

there was a bloodstained mattress

that was found and recovered.

Whilst at Bifield, officers came across

another resident there by the name of Leslie Layton.

He said that he knew Joanne Dennehy.

But he hadn't seen her for some considerable time.

A third resident by the name of John Chapman,

who we established was living at the address,

couldn't be located.

By 2009, Joanne and John were actually living separately.

And Joanne continued with the drinking and the drug-taking.

But even though she wasn't living with her daughters,

her behavior still impacted the family.

I cared about her.

I didn't like seeing the self-destruct button.

I hated it.

More so because where we lived,

we were walking around and my daughters were seeing it.

Seeing the level of how low she had got.

So it wasn't love then? No.

For the last year of us being in the same vicinity, it wasn't love.

It was more I was trying to help her constantly.

I saw her in a park.

And she was wearing a pair of man's shoes.

And she stunk.

I took her back to mine and said, "Go get yourself a bath.

And I took her up to town.

I bought her some of the jeans and a top and a jumper.

And just made her feel normal for five minutes.

Nobody was there dealing with it but me.

You know, everybody's got a finger to point.

But, actually, I was the one being destroyed.

It wasn't the other way around.

I gave it to the last bit

until I couldn't see my children take no more

of what they were seeing, hearing.

I've got social services on my back,

telling me I've got to make a decision

when she turns up, to opening the door.

Is she drunk? High?

Is she able to come in?

And she's out of her face on alcohol.

When I'm like, no, you can't come in,

physical abuse would be there.

Putting my head into the wall.

And the worst bit, I think, is the mental side.

It strips you of everything.

Honestly, my head was to the floor.

It was that bad.

It makes me shake inside because it was horrible.

The final straw for John was when Joanne turned up at the house

with a knife that she'd kept in her boot.

She just sat on the floor, pulled a knife out,

and just said, "I could just kill somebody."

And she had pins all in her legs and her arms.

And it was all blood everywhere.

And she'd brought a jar of 5p's to try and contribute,

which she'd stolen from somewhere.

And she was off her face as well.

And when I sit here now,

it's like should I have rang somebody?

But I was just more focused on

not letting her get near them children.

Please, I just want you out of my house.

I get goosebumps.

It goes all through me and it's horrible.

John made the decision that he had

to get his daughters as far away from Joanne as possible.

I said, look, I'm actually going today.

I'm taking the kids and we're off.

There was no, please don't go, none of that.

I think she kind of had to accept it.

Despite our best efforts,

we were unable, at that early stage,

to be able to locate Stretch and Dennehy.

We were very, very concerned for public safety,

given the fact that we felt they were involved in Kevin's murder.

And we felt that the best way to be able to identify them

was to call for public assistance.

So photographs of Stretch and Dennehy

with their descriptions was released to the media.

Police are appealing for help in tracing two people

in connection with the murder of a man in Peterborough.

The body of Kevin Lee, who was 44,

was found close to the A16

in Newborough near Peterborough on Saturday.

He'd died from stab wounds.

As a result of the media release,

we had a phone call from a police officer in Norfolk,

who'd gone to an offense of making off

without payment from a petrol station.

And at that location, had identified two individuals

that fitted the description of Stretch and Dennehy.

We were notified

and as a result of that particular drive off,

we were able to establish the index number of the car

that they were using.

A green Vauxhall Astra.

So that was a significant breakthrough for us.

It enabled us to use the ANPR network

around the country to try and locate the vehicle.

Whilst Stretch and Dennehy were being tracked down,

we were doing a lot of phone work.

And we established that a phone

that we could attribute to John Chapman was also interacting

with those that we knew were being used by Stretch and Dennehy.

The phone was also interacting

with a phone belonging to Leslie Layton as well.

We also knew at that stage that the blood staining on the mattress

was attributable to John Chapman.

So we were keeping an open mind

but John Chapman sat in the category of either potential suspect

or potentially another victim.

The ANPR work that we did established

that Stretch and Dennehy may have been traveling

in the general direction of Hereford.

And some background work on Stretch identified

that he did have at least one associate in that area.

So a phone call was made to West Mercia Police,

just to advise them that we were looking for these two individuals

and that they may soon be in their area.

After John Treanor fled Joanne Dennehy in terror,

she was in and out of prison like a rubber ball on an elastic band.

No respect for law and order. No respect for her children.

No respect for John Treanor. No respect for her parents.

She became totally antisocial.

She's mentally disintegrating.

Prison as a place of incarceration for Dennehy clearly didn't work

because this is an individual who bases her life

on greed, manipulation, control, dominance, impulsivity.

And prison doesn't teach you

how to effectively rehabilitate from these things.

If anything, during her time in prison,

her behavior would've accelerated and amplified.

And she would've used her time in prison

to think about what she can do in the outside world,

so as to be able to get her fix and to satisfy her needs.

What happened with Joanna in intervening years

before she really got into serious trouble

is rather clouded in mystery.

My dad introduced Joanne to our lives when I was about 12.

The first girlfriend, I think, after my mum and dad's divorce.

And, yeah.

Just got a really like, cold feeling about her straight away.

She didn't smile.

She wasn't warm and welcoming.

And she kind of like, tainted our weekends

with my dad like, straight away.

The end of the relationship of Danielle's parents

will have been a confusing time for her.

And what she will have needed would've been kindness,

nurturance, and guidance from any figure that was within her life.

And Joanne just wouldn't have been able

to offer that to Danielle.

My dad was a little bit older than her.

And she was obviously paying my dad attention.

He just wanted to be loved.

He didn't want to be alone.

And I think she saw his kindness as such a weakness.

And she was like, I'm going to take everything I can out of him.

Their relationship moved from like,

zero to a hundred like, really quickly.

And she moved in pretty much straight away.

So that just kind of put such a dark cloud

over our like, childhood home.

She was supposedly meant to be a step-mum figure.

But there was no motherly love or instinct about her at all.

I feel like she was jealous,

which is so strange to be jealous of a child.

But I think she just wanted my dad's full attention.

You know, she was his only girl.

I don't think she'll have seen Danielle as a stepdaughter.

I think she'll probably have seen her more as a rival.

She was in the way of Joanne being able

to have power and control and ultimately,

monopolise the attention of the father.

Any children in that relationship will just have been incidentals

and seen as irrelevant for her to engage with.

I don't think I ever had two seconds alone with my dad.

She was just there all the time.

And she'd like, drink from like, morning to night as well.

The empty bottles of vodka would be sat on the side.

It just all of a sudden felt like it was Joanna's house.

And we were like, the guests.

She never had really any interactions with me.

But one day, she was like,

"Oh, do you want to learn how to dance?"

And I was like, "She wants to spend some time with me.

This is like, amazing. Oh my god. She does like me."

And we were practicing dancing for ages.

And she seemed to be really like, excited about it.

And she was like, "We're going to perform this

in front of your dad."

It wasn't until I got home and showed my mum the dance

that I realized what she'd kind of been trying to teach me.

It was very sexually like, explicit.

My mum was mortified.

Absolutely mortified.

The fact that she thinks this is appropriate with a 13-year-old

suggests to me that she has no understanding

of what is considered appropriate sexual contact.

And no boundaries.

After a few years, my dad finally saw her true colors

and ended the relationship with her.

She ended up sleeping with one of my dad's friends

behind his back in exchange for vodka.

So, yeah, he literally chucked her out.

I was over the moon.

Like, absolutely over the moon that I had my dad back.

But he was very angry and upset.

So it took me a while to start building up the confidence

to go to my dad's on the weekends again.

Although it was just him there,

her presence kind of remained in the house,

which I look back now and it makes me really sad.

Because I'd do anything

to have those weekends back with my dad.

Joanne Dennehy first became known to Kevin Lee

when she walked into the Quick Let Office

in Peterborough in 2012,

looking to rent some accommodation.

She told them at that time that she'd been

in prison for some violent offences.

But nevertheless, they were satisfied

that she would be somebody they could

offer some accommodation to.

And she became a tenant of theirs.

The area where we lived was a close-knit community.

We always helped each other out,

or if someone new moved in, we got to know them.

And if they needed any help, we would always be there for them.

I was a neighbor of Joanne Dennehy.

And I was a friend of John Chapman.

Three tenants lived in there.

There was John Dennehy, John Chapman, and Les Leighton.

You see.

As I point up to it.

That was Dennehy's room where she slept.

John's bedroom was the first floor at the back.

And that is Les Layton's room.

I lived in the house at the end there.

John Chapman.

Quite well-decorated ex-Navy, who's fallen on hard times,

and turned to drink and became an alcoholic.

We had a nickname for him, Uncle Albert.

Hearing all his naval stories would just remind us

of Uncle Albert from "Only Fools and Horses."

He and I to sit down and talk.

You know, hearing his stories, it was just wonderful.

He was married to a lovely woman called Anne.

And then she sadly passed away.

And he started drinking because he couldn't cope.

When you've got that addiction, it's hard.

Since Dennehy came out of prison,

Kevin Lee was not only her landlord,

the pair had become engaged in an affair together.

So he was also her lover.

And he had used her intimidating reputation

and look as an enforcer for him

to collect unpaid rent and bills and debts.

She went around and spoke to them, threatened them,

sometimes used violence to make sure that he got his money.

Working as an enforcer for Kevin Lee, I should imagine,

has given her a sense of power and purpose.

I expect she'll have enjoyed it.

And, you know, the lack of empathy

that she allegedly has means

that it will not have weighed heavy on her,

knowing that she was doing this to people.

Les Layton said how scared he was of Joanne.

John come in and he was shaking.

A bit tearful as well.

Saying that, "She's gonna get rid of me.

She's gonna get rid of me."

And we just said, "Oh, shut up, John," you know.

But if only we knew then what we know now.

I was the superintendent local policing commander.

It started, of course, as a normal day.

I received a briefing from one of my intelligence officers.

And there was a particular item of interest in there.

We'd been contacted by Cambridge Constabulary

to say that they were in the very early stages

of what they believed to be a murder investigation.

And they'd identified two people,

who they described as being of interest to them.

One was Joanna Dennehy.

And the other was Gary Stretch.

And they were believed to be using a particular green Astra vehicle.

Shortly after half past three in the afternoon,

my detective chief inspector came to me

and explained to me that there had

being a serious incident on the street.

And one of my detective inspectors came to me

and said, "Oh, boss, just to let you know.

There's been a stabbing on the street."

Of course, I responded saying, "Yes, I know that."

And actually, it transpired that my DI was explaining

to me there'd been a second stabbing.

A man in his 60s was stabbed on West Faling Street.

10 minutes later, a second man was stabbed on the footpath

between Golden Post and the Belmont Estate.

He was in his 50s.

And, of course, then your blood runs cold

and the hairs are on the back of your neck.

This is a very, very rare event for any city, really.

But especially for Hereford.

Only last week,

Hereford was named as the safest place in Britain.

Now, these attacks have left the community in shock.

To have two random knife attacks

on complete strangers during broad daylight

in what was the school holidays is very, very rare.

Your concern immediately is,

these are so random in nature.

What is the extent of this going to be?

And how many more attacks could there be?

The timescale between the two was so short.

Of course, you work on the assumption they must be linked.

But you have no basis other

than your gut instinct to say that that's the case.

The ambulance service had responded to the first victim,

who had described his attacker as having a tattoo on her cheek.

The officer from the intelligence department that I'd spoken

to earlier immediately put two and two together.

Reflected on the content of the morning briefing.

We have photographs of those individuals.

And indeed, Joanna Dennehy did have that tattoo.

The first victim, Robin Bereza, was 63.

He's well known.

He'd been both a firefighter and also a postman.

He was walking his dog in the direction of his home address.

Joanna got out of the car

and stabbed Mr. Bereza in the back.

She then attacked him from the front.

And so vicious was her attack,

when Mr. Bereza raised his arm to defend himself,

she actually ended up breaking a bone in his arm.

Incredibly, he managed to find his way to a home address,

which was when the alarm was raised.

Then they drive over the River Wye

to South Hereford to an area around the Golden Post.

And John Rogers had literally just come out

to walk his dog, Archie.

He was 56 years of age.

He was well known, well liked.

Just an ordinary guy, again, going about his ordinary business.

Gary Stretch stops the car.

Joanna Dennehy then approached John Rogers from behind

and again starts stabbing John.

He's stabbed in the back multiple times.

He falls to the floor.

He's stabbed in the chest area, the abdomen.

His bowels and kidney are severed.

And he's pleading with Joanna Dennehy to stop.

But she says words to the effect of,

"Well, look, you're bleeding. I better do it some more."

And then turns him over on his front

and stabs him some more times in the back

and leaves John for dead.

And for some inexplicable reason,

Joanna Dennehy took Mr. Rogers' dog from the scene,

put it in the car, and drove off with it.

30 times she stabbed the final victim.

And I expect she's trying to get

that feeling that she got from the first victim back.

She wasn't getting the release that she was hoping for,

which is why it's such a frenzied attack.

She just wants to feel what she wants to feel.

And she's going for it.

Much like a drug addict would with a drug.

Much like an alcoholic would with a drink.

Two stabbings at two different locations in Hereford.

Police say both random and unprovoked.

Anybody who thinks

that they may have seen suspicious activity,

please get in touch with us.

It may be that small piece of information is useful to us.

There is an element of policing that is built upon good luck.

But that good luck is founded on the principles of good policing,

one of which is understanding your local communities.

On hearing the scene of the second attack,

we formed the opinion there was a strong likelihood

to be linked to activities in an area known as The Oval,

which had a reputation

for being high crime and involving drugs.

We chose to deploy to The Oval.

And that good luck conspired.

When they arrived at the scene,

they found the green Astra vehicle.

Joanna Dennehy is alone in the vehicle.

Sat with Archie, the dog that she's stolen

from John Rogers and left him for dead.

Responding officers have approached Joanna Dennehy.

She didn't put up any resistance.

But they got her out of the car, restrained her, searched her,

and recovered the knife that we know was used

in the attack on John Rogers.

So that initial response secured some vital evidence.

And the arresting officers,

when they cautioned Joanna Dennehy,

her response was admission

of the fact that she'd killed a man.

And undoubtedly, that was referring to John Rogers,

who she'd just literally stabbed 30 times.

The point of arrest is the weakest point for a suspect.

They are likely to say things that they will not say later.

So the fact that she said,

"I admit it, I killed him," is very, very significant.

The time scale between the first stabbing

and the arrest of Joanna Dennehy was somewhere

in the region of 30 minutes or so.

But, of course, we immediately knew we were also looking

for a second person.

So that suspect hunt must be conducted diligently

and very, very quickly to protect the public.

And that was done within literally two hours,

Gary Stretch was located near the village of Armley and detained.

We were pleased they were in custody.

But we were unclear as to how

and why they were involved in another incident.

It never occurred to us at that stage that she was the person that she was.

You then have the opportunity to reflect.

And it is a fact that an attempted killing of this nature

is very, very rarely perpetrated by a female offender.

And so there is an element of surprise.

Joanne doesn't really conform to what we expect women to be like.

Quite often in society, we still see women

as the caregivers, the maternal figures.

So when we see them going out of their way

to show such violence against other people,

that really does shock our core beliefs.

Once an offender is arrested,

they'll be brought to the police station.

And they'll be presented before an officer known as the custody officer.

You have been arrested on suspicion

of attempted murder and murder, okay?

For somebody who just really seriously attacked two men

on the street, she was joking,

and making light of the fact that she'd been arrested

for both attempted murder and murder.

Would you be cheery if you were up for attempted murder and murder?

- I wouldn't, but- - No, but I'm still smiling.

Attemopted murder and murder is nothing.

It's like going down for Sunday Roast.

Easy.

Joanne is a very seductive individual.

And the CCTV footage shows us just

how skilled she is at being able to manipulate

and get what she wants in terms of interactions from other people.

And not necessarily just men.

I love your eyebrows.

Thanks.

She has the ability to lure people in with her persona.

And she's demonstrating just how skilled she is with that.

She does have this energy to her, which is alluring,

and which absolutely is classic femme fatale.

You acted perfectly.

Why, thank you.

You are a decent copper.

Thanks.

Remarkable.

No guilt at all.

Body language. Just cocky.

Center of attention.

What's really interesting is

how the police officer's body language shows

that he's responding to her flirtatiousness.

So he's gone from being fairly closed

and fairly standoffish, guarded

to actually leaning on the work top,

almost as if the side by side in a bar.

Quite a shocking, shocking video.

Joanne had alleged that she was abused

at some point in her childhood.

If the sexual abuse claims are true,

unprocessed sexual abuse does tend

to present as sexually provocative behaviour.

We do see it with Joanne.

She is seductive.

She is provocative.

That's all she knows in terms of how to relate to men.

But then she is a pathological liar as well.

We know that she uses lies to get what she wants.

So even though we've got a really, really good start

on the investigation,

we've got Joanna Dennehy in custody,

there's a knife recovered,

you know that you're dealing with a very, very serious case.

Witness inquiries, CCTV, house to house,

fast track actions, forensic actions.

Whole host of enquiries have to go on in that stage.

And what those inquiries quickly revealed is

that Joanna Dennehy and Gary Stretch,

in a green Vauxhall Astra,

had driven from Cambridgeshire across to Herefordshire.

Down the M5.

And then we've got CCTV recovered from Strensham services.

That showed Joanna Dennehy

and Gary Stretch walking hand in hand

into Strensham services very casually.

The interesting thing

is all these people walking past her hardly noticed her.

And yet, she's become one

of the most notorious killers in British history,

and nobody knows, which goes to prove

that you couldn't tell a killer if they're standing in front of you.

And that's the shocking thing.

While Stretch and Dennehy were effectively on the run,

they committed a domestic burglary out in Norfolk.

And one of the items they took from that burglary was a camera.

When you look through the images,

they've taken pictures of each other, of the scenery,

as though they're on some family road trip together.

It paints the picture of what Joanna Dennehy referred

to herself as that she wanted really

to be known as Bonnie and Clyde with Gary Stretch

and become notorious for the nature of her offending.

Gary Stretch had connections to Herefordshire.

And in particular, to a man known as Mark Lloyd.

Gary Stretch and Joanne Dennehy had been responsible

for stealing items whilst they were on the run.

They wanted Mark's help in selling those goods.

And they believed Mark could help them do that.

So Gary Stretch drives the Vauxhall Astra.

Joanna Dennehy gets in the front passenger seat.

And they have Mark Lloyd get into the back of the Vauxhall Astra.

And they travel to Hereford.

They stopped their vehicle

about 200 meters before that scene of the attack.

And they'd gone into a local convenience store.

And what was described by the store assistant was really,

really light-hearted banter

between Joanna Dennehy and that store assistant.

And for me, that says something about the mindset of an individual,

who only a minute or so later,

conducts a really vicious attempted murder

on an innocent man.

Police are now appealing for witnesses as they try

to work out why these two men became the victims

of a random attack.

I found it very, very difficult to come to terms

with how anybody could attack a stranger

in broad daylight in the street for no reason.

There was no attempt to be secretive

or to cover up these crimes

or be particularly sophisticated

in the way that they're committed.

I've investigated major crime

where offenders are taking great lengths

to protect their identities

to cover up their involvement in any type of crime.

This wasn't one of those sorts of instances.

Joanne thrived on excitement.

And she was intelligent enough

to know she will eventually have been caught

for her behavior.

But the excitement whilst this was happening

would've been a more significant draw for her.

My honest thoughts are

that I think she enjoyed being in prison.

So, actually, for her, there's not really a lot to lose.

I think she wanted to be caught.

The human element of what we respond to is not lost on us.

And in my personal view,

it was due to the pure professionalism of paramedics,

and, obviously, staff at the hospital

who saved Mr. Rogers life in particular

because his injuries were really significant.

And, of course, Mr. Breza's injuries were really serious too.

I've got the added consideration of liaising with my counterpart,

the senior investigating officer

in the Bedfordshire Cambridgeshire Hertfordshire

major investigation unit,

who've already circulated Joanna Dennehy

as wanted for the murder of Kevin Lee,

whose body was discovered on the 30th of March.

We were expecting, at some point,

to be engaged with West Mercia Police

to make arrangements to bring Stretch and Dennehy

into custody into Cambridgeshire

so that we could interview them for Kevin Lee's murder.

But it was on the morning of Wednesday, the 3rd of April

that farmers had located two bodies

in a ditch in Thorney Dyke, which is some miles

from where Kevin Lee's body was found.

But nevertheless, these bodies were found in similar circumstances.

And it's that stage that we knew

that we were dealing with a serial killer.

The bodies were ultimately recovered.

And the identity of one of them

was quickly established as John Chapman.

It became apparent that his phone had been taken

by Stretch and Dennehy and had been used

by them throughout the period of time that they were on the run.

And we knew therefore, that he had become a victim,

rather than being a suspect

and an associate of Stretch and Dennehy's.

As a consequence of there being no defensive wounds

to John Chapman's hands or arms,

so we believe that he was stabbed on the mattress

that was found subsequently in the garden

whilst he was either asleep

or unconscious due to significant alcohol consumption.

The entire gravity of this homicide is reflected

in the post-mortem report.

He was stabbed five times in the chest.

Two stabs penetrated the heart.

One stab was so powerful, it went through the breastbone.

One stab severing the carotid artery.

He died without a struggle.

That is a ferocious murderous attack.

We found out one of the bodies was John.

And that's when all the press from the world came round.

Television, cameras, reporters.

You know, everywhere we went,

it's all like, oh my days.

Media circus.

John was well loved and well liked around this community here.

He really was.

He didn't realize how much he was loved.

Although he was a heavy drinker,

John Chapman's neighbors say he was never any trouble.

He was all right. He was harmless.

Because he was drunk all the time.

And just say hello and he'd stagger on by.

The other individual was a person

that was subsequently identified as Lukasz Slaboszewski.

He was somebody that we had not come across before in our investigation.

Lukasz was a Polish national living in Peterborough.

He was last seen alive at just

after five past seven on the 19th of March

on some CCTV footage in Lincoln Road,

which was near to where he lived.

Telephone data suggests at 7:36,

Lukasz calls Dennehy's phone from the Dogsthorpe area,

where Rolleston Garth is located.

We think that an arrangement had been made

for Lukasz to see Joanna at Rolleston Garth.

And it was there that she lured him into the house and then killed him.

Slaboweszki was clearly the ideal victim for Dennehy.

He was living by himself.

He had a very little social circle.

And therefore, he didn't really have anyone to protect him.

Following Lukasz's murder,

his body was moved from Rolleston Garth to a wheelie bin,

where it stayed for a couple of days before it was ultimately deposited

in the ditch over at Thorney Dyke.

We're unable to say for certain

how Lukasz's body was moved

from Rolleston Garth into the wheelie bin.

But given the weight,

I suspect that Joanne Dennehy didn't do that on her own.

It's very likely that Stretch assisted and maybe others.

Joanne was very much in control

when it came to the dynamic between her and Gary Stretch.

He was a big man.

He had his own criminal involvement.

But really, the driving force

and the mastermind and the decision maker

in this relationship was Dennehy.

I think he'd have done anything she wanted him to do.

He was under her spell.

And ultimately, when you're in that position,

your boundaries are lost.

You don't really know what you are doing.

You are making decisions based on what they want.

Females that are involved in killing largely tend

to operate in a secondary capacity.

They tend to be a facilitator.

They tend to serve as an accessory.

Rarely do we come across females that kill,

that operate primarily, independently,

with minimal supervision,

and in fact, have men as their subordinates.

When we look into what femme fatale means,

yes, it talks about women's attractiveness

and women's ability to seduce.

But it also talks about the darkness

that female energy can also have.

And that can be used to draw men

to do things that they wouldn't ordinarily have done.

And Joanne demonstrated that quite clearly with her accomplices.

Jo's sister rang me.

Because I don't really watch TV at all.

Anything negative, news, I don't touch it.

She's rang me to say, "Have you seen the news and that?"

I'm like, "No."

She's like, "I've got something to tell you."

And that's how I found out.

I just remember like, seeing weird people pull up in a car.

And I'm thinking, what's going on?

It was all people wanting your story, newspapers.

I got both the kids out the school.

And the head teacher even drove me home the back way

to get them out of the way.

Because I didn't want them...

It's like staying out of a film, if I'm honest.

I kind of made the mistake

of not being honest with my daughter at first.

I should have just said, look, here.

This is what she's done.

I tried to protect her, in a way.

That's my own fault, really.

The press were there, so I had to get walked to my house

with my dad's beanie over my head.

I didn't really know what was going on.

So it was scary.

She's done what she's done.

And she's not thought about

what she's brought into the world or anything

and what it's going to do to them or any of that.

My mum picked me up from school and it come on the radio

that Joanna had done these awful crimes.

And I just like, sat there

and me and my mum looked at each other.

And I was like, "What?"

You know, when you're like just disbelief.

I just kept going, mum, that could have been us.

To find out that I'd stayed in the same house with this woman

and that she's just done these awful crimes just makes me feel sick.

Even now, that's just awful.

I had nightmares for months

because I would just have this vision of the outside of my bedroom door

and her just being outside.

I feel really, really angry with her

because we were probably just a blip in her little world.

But that stayed with me.

And I'll always remember that time that,

you know, she was under the same roof as all of us.

So whilst we were running the major investigation from Hereford,

at the forefront of my mind is the suspect interviews.

Given the nature of offending,

we had some doctors to assess Joanna Dennehy.

And the assessments indicated

that she was not fit to be interviewed.

And she was sectioned under the Mental Health Act

and sent to Arden Lee Institution for further assessments

to be undertaken into her mental state.

As those assessments are being arranged

in the custody block, I remember thinking,

what does a serial killer look like?

To see one in the flesh and to be struck

by that realization really,

that it just looks like any other normal woman

that might be walking the streets.

Ultimately, she was assessed and then rearrested

and taken to a police station for questioning.

By that stage, we'd already made decisions about Gary Stretch.

He'd been charged with two attempted murders.

He provided a version of his own events.

So he did speak.

But denied any involvement or knowledge

in the attempted murders, stating that he wasn't aware

that Joanna Dennehy was going to attack anybody.

He wasn't just a hapless helper.

That's what he wanted us all to believe.

No, he did way more than that.

He knew exactly what Joanne Dennehy was capable of.

It soon became apparent

that Leslie Layton hadn't told the truth.

He's a bit of a sad individual.

I think probably of a weak character.

And I don't think he had the courage

to refuse the requests of Dennehy and Stretch.

He was involved in the burning out of Kevin Lee's Mondeo

following his murder

and was also responsible, along with Stretch and Dennehy,

for the deposition of Kevin Lee's body

and also that of John Chapman.

Mark Lloyd was dealt with for handling stolen goods,

but became a crucial witness for the prosecution

in describing what occurred inside that car

during the two attacks in Hereford.

So when we finally got to interview Joanna Dennehy,

she went, "No comment," which is her right.

Joanne Dennehy and Gary Stretch were subsequently charged

with offences associated with the murders

of Kevin Lee, Lukasz Slaboszewski, and John Chapman.

Joanne Dennehy pleaded not guilty.

Obviously, then that puts the pressure on the investigation team

to make sure we've got sufficient evidence

to prove that case beyond all reasonable doubt.

We were preparing for a lengthy trial at the Old Bailey.

What we have to do is build that sequence of events,

that storyline that will prove the involvement

of Joanna Dennehy, Gary Stretch, and others

in offenses that have been committed.

We also need to look at why she did what she did.

Joanne Dennehy is the only female murderer

that I've ever come across that has murdered so many people

in such a short space of time.

Something about her character meant that

that was always her destiny.

But what I struggle with is the moment

at which that button was pressed.

The moment at which she committed that first murder,

which was in essence, her first step along the line

to becoming a very notorious female serial killer.

The first victim here,

Lukasz Slaboszewski, was a Polish guy.

31 years old.

And he was in a mall where he bumped

into Joanne Dennehy for the first time.

Joanne Dennehy lured Lukasz round to a bedsit.

He thought that he had started a romantic relationship with her.

He'd even sent a text to friends

and family to let them know

that he had met this wonderful English woman

who was going to be his girlfriend, he hoped.

The minute Lukasz walked through the door

and got as far as the kitchen,

she plunged a five-inch lock knife into his heart.

He's quite a big guy.

The ferocity of that girl plunging

that knife into that man once into the heart in one go

and overpowering him is almost something

out of a horror film.

Putting the body in a bin was, for her,

a way of just disposing of something meaningless.

She's just discarded of him like trash, hasn't she, literally.

After that first murder,

Joanne is said to have told someone that she got a liking for it.

She really found it quite moreish and she wanted another taste.

I expect the first kill

gave her something she wasn't expecting.

That sense of release, that catharsis.

So I think that the shame and the guilt

and the pain and the humiliation

that she's been holding onto

for her entire life was suddenly projected out

into another person through that penetration of the stab.

And that's why it's moreish.

Because then, she's looking for that release again.

Joanne Dennehy was somebody, without question,

driven by a blood lust.

And she murdered on that first occasion for whatever reason.

And after that, it was almost as if a button had been pressed.

And she wasn't going to stop until she'd been arrested.

John Chapman was Dennehy's second victim.

He was fast asleep with a drink in his bed.

Joanne Dennehy crept into his room,

pulled his sheet back,

and stabbed him multiple times in the chest, the heart, the neck.

I think the choice of weapon is really significant.

There's something about a knife,

something about the sharpness of it,

the stabbing that is arousing for her.

The interesting thing with stabbing someone is

that you have to get up close and personal.

So I can imagine that the process of that, for her,

was thrilling in that she was actually able

to see the confusion and the fear in people's faces as she did that.

Before she even moved John's body,

she's moved on to her next victim.

She arranged to meet up with Kevin Lee.

And they'd been texting about what she's gonna do to him.

And there's a bit of talk about she's gonna dress him up and rape him.

There's a fantasy there being the one with the power.

The one who's going to do the penetrating.

But she ends up murdering him.

Stabbing him five times in the chest, puncturing his lungs.

By this point, Dennehy is on the news already.

There is a manhunt underway for her.

Police are appealing for help in tracing two people

in connection with the murder of a man in Peterborough.

She tells Gary Stretch that she wants more.

She wants to commit further acts of violence.

She is making comments.

You know, "You've had your fun, Gary, I want mine.

I don't want a woman. I don't want a child.

Find me someone to kill."

She's very excited for what she's about to experience.

Gary Stretch pointed to Robin Bereza

and said to Joanne Dennehy, "Will he do?"

Once the call came in for the initial stabbing,

within minutes, literally, there's another stabbing.

John Rogers.

The fact that they're all male victims is not random.

She wanted men.

It's about overpowering the men.

It's about her taking her power back.

Murderers and serial killers

and offenders are normally victims

before they become criminals.

They were a victim first.

That's what's led them down this path.

She's been diagnosed with psychopathic personality disorder.

And she's also got a diagnosis

of emotionally unstable personality disorder,

which will make her much more sensitive

to the world around her.

Emotionally more unstable.

I think the deadly part

of the situation here is that psychopathic element.

Because if she had the empathy,

this wouldn't have led to murder.

It would have been violent.

She might have hurt someone.

She might have felt bad for it.

But actually, when you put

in there the psychopathic traits, unfortunately,

that's just an absolutely lethal combination, isn't it?

On the first day of the trial,

witnesses were getting ready to give evidence

when Joanna Dennehy changed her plea from not guilty to guilty.

We were all shocked.

Her pleas today stunned her defense team,

who said it wasn't something they'd anticipated.

"I've pleaded guilty and that's that,"

Dennehy told the court.

She later objected to her lawyers being given time

to check her guilty pleas.

"I'm not coming back down here again just

to say the same stuff," she told the court.

"It's a long way to come

to say the same thing I've just said."

I don't believe her entering that guilty plea

was her showing remorse.

That was her exercising, in her mind,

further control over the criminal justice system.

This was the ultimate stage for her.

Being able to control the proceedings at court.

Being able to create a drama and a theater where,

once again, she's the center of attention.

It was almost her final swan song.

I think she knew the evidence was damning.

She knew she was going to go to jail.

And her pleading guilty is her taking control of that situation.

It's saying, "I am guilty. Take me down."

It's not allowing someone else to make a judgment on her.

She just can't have that.

Despite the fact that Joanna Dennehy pleaded guilty,

there was still a trial to be had

at crown court for other offenders who had aided, abetted.

Ultimately, all were found guilty.

Stretch was jailed for life

and must serve at least 19 years.

Leslie Layton was sentenced to 14 years

for the part he played.

Joanna Dennehy was sentenced the following year, 2014.

These events had such long-term traumatic impact

on both of these Hereford victims.

It was actually commented upon by the judge in sentencing.

Robin Bereza described what happened.

This is from his statement.

"I did not immediately realize that I was being attacked.

I turned around and saw this lady.

She just stared straight through me.

I asked her, what are you doing?

She said, 'I'm hurting you.

I'm gonna fucking kill you.'"

This is what John Rogers told the judge.

"I saw the woman who had struck me, just standing there.

She started stabbing me in the chest.

I was just waiting for it to stop.

There was loads and loads of blood.

And as I lay there, I thought,

this is where I'm going to die."

The judge considered her to be so dangerous

and her offending to be so severe

that she was subject of a whole life order.

And what that means is that she will never be released.

The judge said she was a cruel,

calculating and manipulative serial killer.

She will die in jail for her crimes.

Even after Dennehy was told she'd spend the rest

of her life in prison, her reaction was simply to laugh.

We saw what sort of person Joanne Dennehy is today.

Constantly smiling in front of bereaved families

at times when she showed nothing

but utter disrespect for everything and everybody

in that courtroom today.

The fact that she'll never see daylight again

in the outside world is of huge comfort for the family.

And while I don't measure success

of any investigation on prison time,

in this case, for Joanne Dennehy,

it's absolutely the right thing that she won't come out of prison.

Dennehy became only the third woman in the UK

to ever be given life without parole.

The other two being Myra Hindley and Rosemary West.

And so that really shows the gravity of her crimes

and the seriousness of her offending.

Joanne will have known that she was going

to prison for a long time.

But in her mind, that's probably the next part of her story.

She can go back in with the power and notoriety.

Everyone fears her.

No one's going to hurt her again.

I can only think that she would consider that a badge of honor.

Prison is her environment now

where she will need to negotiate and learn

and find ways of entertaining herself.

So the behaviors that Joanne will have exhibited in the community

will still be exhibited in prison.

She's a high risk to everybody in prison.

We know that whatever that fantasy is in her head,

she's more than willing to act upon it.

So after she was sentenced,

my dad still had a lot of questions.

"Why did you do this?"

So he wrote to her.

And she sent this letter back to him.

She starts off by saying,

"You're the last person I expected to hear from."

And then she starts like, degrading him,

putting him down, you know.

Saying he's lazy and he's got no confidence.

And it's like, she's trying to obtain that power.

You know, I'm still wearing the trousers.

She goes into quite a lot of detail

on how she manipulated these men

and how she done her killings.

How she had a plan to seduce Kev.

What she left out for him to wear.

A little black dress.

She had Elvis playing in the background

while she humiliated and killed him.

Dennehy told others that the reason that she murdered men was

because of unwanted sexual attention from them.

Personally, I just think that's a convenient excuse.

I think she was somebody that enjoyed it.

She mentions here that she doesn't see Kevin and Lukasz as victims.

If anything, she's a victim.

And she doesn't regret taking their lives at all.

Once she'd murdered one person,

I think it was a blood lust that drove her.

And I think she needed to find an excuse

to justify why she did what she did.

She was a woman, in my view,

who was driven by the power that being able

to inflict serious injury on others had

and the pleasure that it gave her.

She dives in here by saying

that she went guilty straight away

because it meant that her reasons

for what she did will always remain with her.

You know, it's my secret.

She must think that little of those

that she's affected to not be able to give them the truth.

Joanne won't care who will still be suffering.

For her, it's about having the ultimate control.

She wants the world to think the worst of her.

She wants the world to be scared of her.

"I've done many things to many people.

But I do not regret killing them.

Good luck, thank you, and goodbye, Joanne."

And then she's signed it with a star.

Whilst this documentary is about the monster that Dennehy was and is,

we must never forget that, you know,

Lukasz and John and Kevin were all victims

that didn't deserve what happened to them.

Joanna Dennehy has taken over our lives

and has callously created a hole that cannot be filled.

She tried to humiliate Kevin in a way that wasn't deserved.

She killed three innocent men.

Kevin Lee will never see his kids grow up.

And Lukasz Slaboszewski would never get a chance

to get married, to have kids.

And John would never get a chance to grow old gracefully.

She took that away from everyone that knew them.

Both victims of these horrific knife attacks

in Hereford were not only physically injured severely,

but also mentally traumatised.

Robin Bereza was very dramatically impacted psychologically.

The second victim, John Rogers,

wasn't in the best of health at that time.

The strange thing, I found,

is when I sat down with John at his home

that this had the opposite effect that it had on Robin.

He actually valued his life more

and became more conscious of healthy living, healthy eating.

And it was fantastic to see him recover.

It's very, very rare, as a police officer,

that you see some good come out of a really bad situation.

But in this case, it did.

And then it was so, so sad that a short time later,

John caught cancer and passed away.

I don't know there's a word to use for her.

Everybody says monster.

But it's more than just a monster.

It's more than that.

If what she wanted was to go down in history

as this sadistic, masochistic,

female iconic serial killer,

then in a way, she's got what she wanted

because people won't forget her in a hurry.

She belongs in hell.

May she rot in hell.

You do think about the people that she's done what she's done to.

You know, it doesn't leave your brain.

Because, you know, I've got my daughters, I'm alive.

And everything's okay in that sense.

But for them, that's a lifetime of hurt, isn't it?

That's when you were just born.

Look how tiny you are.

I was two and a half the last time I saw Joanna.

I wouldn't ever call her my mum.

It's just someone that bought me into this world.

I often wonder what impact

that must have had on her two children,

growing up knowing that their mum is now in custody

for the rest of her life and is known as a serial killer.

How do you approach that subject?

Honestly, you know, Saff didn't find out

until she was, I think, about 12.

I went to a shop with my sister.

And when I was walking home, there was a girl.

And she shouted, "Someone told me

that your mum's like a murderer and she's in prison."

And I had no clue what that meant.

And then my dad had to tell me everything.

It's the worst sentence you're ever going to have to say.

And that's their mother.

I think what gets me the most is the victim's families.

And then, obviously, the people that I love.

What they've all had to go through because of one woman.

I wanted, more than anything on this planet,

for them girls to have their mother in their life.

Because they're both lovely.

And she's lost out big time.

I am grateful that she's not in my life

because she's clearly not a good person.

So I'm glad I've not had that influence around me.

I've got my dad.

So he's kind of been a mum and a dad

throughout my entire life.

It's the only thing I'm good at.

It's the only thing I'm good at.

I don't have any skills.

But it just felt natural.

I think it's been a lot for my dad.

He likes to pretend it isn't.

But it definitely is.

Because it's a lot for someone to go through.

So there's no way it hasn't affected him.

I'm just me again.

Being with Jo, I lost me completely.

She took every bit of self-esteem, confidence.

Anything that was there was gone.

And you have to build all of that back up, don't you?

It took a long time.

And now, I'm probably at a stage

where I'm the person that I should have been all along.

He's done really well.

He's raised us both and he's got a lovely partner.

So he's getting there, yeah.

They're my world, both of my children.

They always have been.

And that's what's kept everything from crumbling.

You know, I wouldn't be here today, really, I suppose, without them.

I couldn't be more proud of my girls.

They're a credit to themselves.

They navigate this world.

And they do it with politeness, caring, love.

So you can't ask for more than that.

They know they're loved and they're what make me smile.