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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,940 Today we're watching Argentina and Spain in the World Cup final. 2 00:00:13,420 --> 00:00:16,920 We're in Las Vegas, Nevada at the Mirage Mega Mansion. 3 00:00:17,300 --> 00:00:19,960 This is a winnable World Cup watch weekend. 4 00:00:20,380 --> 00:00:25,280 The winnable is essentially only fans for the sports betting creator economy. 5 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:29,820 The guys in this house have made millions of dollars on prediction 6 00:00:29,820 --> 00:00:33,320 markets, probably eight figures just over the course of the World Cup. 7 00:00:33,840 --> 00:00:35,240 I like betting on Calci. 8 00:00:35,480 --> 00:00:36,500 Training on Pauly Market. 9 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:38,180 Beginning of the World Cup. 10 00:00:38,810 --> 00:00:42,210 You get to pick who you think is going to win the whole World Cup. 11 00:00:42,830 --> 00:00:48,350 So before I started, I put $5,000 on Spain to win the whole thing. 12 00:00:51,750 --> 00:00:55,350 So I put Spain to win. 13 00:00:55,710 --> 00:00:59,590 When you wake up, you got to put on your lucky underwear, take a deep breath, say 14 00:00:59,590 --> 00:01:00,590 a prayer. 15 00:01:01,310 --> 00:01:03,530 I think prediction markers are low-key taking over the world. 16 00:01:07,590 --> 00:01:12,010 Welcome to day four of flipping 1K into 10 grand on Polymarket. Now to an 17 00:01:12,010 --> 00:01:14,870 industry skyrocketing in popularity, Prediction Market. 18 00:01:15,090 --> 00:01:16,190 What are you guys talking about? 19 00:01:16,430 --> 00:01:20,030 Prediction Market app, dude. You know, online peer-to-peer betting. $100 on 20 00:01:20,030 --> 00:01:20,809 Kane to school. 21 00:01:20,810 --> 00:01:26,770 Done. 10K on Jake Hall makes you $90,000? 22 00:01:28,170 --> 00:01:31,770 There are two major players, Kaoshi and Polymarket. 23 00:01:32,050 --> 00:01:35,690 They just really, really don't like each other. Kaoshi has just posted its 24 00:01:35,690 --> 00:01:40,640 most... lucrative market ever who will win the finals of the world cup it is 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,980 shocking the extent to which prediction markets have proliferated thanks to 26 00:01:44,980 --> 00:01:51,060 prediction markets you can now bet on basically anything and i mean anything 27 00:01:51,060 --> 00:01:56,300 from taylor swift's wedding date to the chances of an iran nuclear deal we're 28 00:01:56,300 --> 00:02:01,040 gambling on war the longtime teleprompter operator for the president 29 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:05,790 he's on leave now for alleged insider trading the long-term vision is to 30 00:02:05,790 --> 00:02:06,790 financialize everything. 31 00:02:06,910 --> 00:02:10,190 This is my life. Me, just like refreshing, refreshing, refreshing. This 32 00:02:10,190 --> 00:02:15,690 is the hyper-financialization or hyper-gamification of our entire lives. 33 00:02:16,490 --> 00:02:23,030 The whole world, unfortunately, has become somewhat of a casino. 34 00:02:34,960 --> 00:02:39,440 I've been writing about the prediction markets for almost 25 years now. 35 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:45,160 The first real prediction market that we know of was started at the University of 36 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:51,740 Iowa in the late 1980s. They started with a really obvious one, how likely 37 00:02:51,740 --> 00:02:55,360 a candidate was to win a presidential election. 38 00:02:55,740 --> 00:03:01,620 You would buy a contract in Michael Dukakis if you thought Dukakis was going 39 00:03:01,620 --> 00:03:02,620 to win. 40 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:08,620 that market proved to be exceptionally good, really better than almost all 41 00:03:08,620 --> 00:03:14,720 polls. And by doing so, they create this really powerful kind of collective 42 00:03:14,720 --> 00:03:19,260 forecasting machine that taps into what I call the wisdom of crowds. 43 00:03:21,440 --> 00:03:26,160 The basic idea of the wisdom of crowds is that under the right conditions, 44 00:03:26,500 --> 00:03:29,860 groups of people can be remarkably intelligent. 45 00:03:30,220 --> 00:03:34,980 So... If you can figure out ways to tap into that wisdom of crowds, then you can 46 00:03:34,980 --> 00:03:39,940 actually create tools that will solve problems. And even in some 47 00:03:39,940 --> 00:03:45,160 circumstances, and this would be where prediction markets come in, forecast the 48 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:47,280 future. This is how it works. 49 00:03:48,540 --> 00:03:51,240 Every prediction market starts with a question. 50 00:03:52,740 --> 00:03:57,920 Let's say, will the US government acknowledge the existence of aliens by 51 00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:02,970 2029? And that is a real market in Kaoshi right now. So there are two 52 00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:04,590 options, yes or no. 53 00:04:05,090 --> 00:04:09,470 In a prediction market, there are always two people trading against each other. 54 00:04:09,590 --> 00:04:15,210 So for you to make this trade, you would buy shares of yes at 25% odds. 55 00:04:15,650 --> 00:04:21,649 Another person would have to take the other side of that trade at 75%. The 56 00:04:21,649 --> 00:04:24,070 price in the market is always changing. 57 00:04:24,780 --> 00:04:28,100 And that reflects the changing opinions of the people in the crowd. 58 00:04:28,340 --> 00:04:30,940 And you can cash out your bet at any point. 59 00:04:31,400 --> 00:04:37,080 When the outcome is known, the winner gets 100% of the payout and the loser 60 00:04:37,080 --> 00:04:38,200 gets nothing. 61 00:04:38,800 --> 00:04:43,200 Cauchy and Polymarket, they make money by taking a transaction fee. The more 62 00:04:43,200 --> 00:04:45,560 people that bet, the more money they make. 63 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:53,980 You've got all of this enthusiasm over World Cup and a betting bonanza. And 64 00:04:53,980 --> 00:04:58,680 Kalshi did more than $5 billion in trading volume this week. Joining us, 65 00:04:58,700 --> 00:05:03,900 Tarek Mansour is a CEO and co-founder at Kalshi. When he left MIT, he joined 66 00:05:03,900 --> 00:05:06,940 really the giants of Wall Street. 67 00:05:08,980 --> 00:05:12,380 Prediction markets are covering things that are top of people's minds, things 68 00:05:12,380 --> 00:05:14,960 that are very kind of core and front and center right now. 69 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,780 And so sports have been an amazing propeller. 70 00:05:19,560 --> 00:05:20,560 I mean, it's massive. 71 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:23,100 I mean, $30 to $40 billion in volume. 72 00:05:23,540 --> 00:05:24,660 The growth has been incredible. 73 00:05:25,320 --> 00:05:28,840 A lot of people watch sports, so it's an easy way to kind of understand what this 74 00:05:28,840 --> 00:05:30,320 is and get educated about prediction markets. 75 00:05:30,680 --> 00:05:34,180 A big chunk of the users essentially convert to other things, like the 76 00:05:34,180 --> 00:05:37,040 economy, politics, weather, culture. 77 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:40,180 If you're not making money watching Love Island, you're doing it wrong. 78 00:05:40,460 --> 00:05:43,220 You know, it's interesting. When we started the company, it was 2018. 79 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:47,480 This was a time where, you know, you saw the sort of first wave of 80 00:05:47,480 --> 00:05:48,480 misinformation. 81 00:05:49,360 --> 00:05:56,240 polarization the country being driven to the extremes social media 82 00:05:56,240 --> 00:06:00,940 was supposed to be a solution to that but it ended up adding fuel to fire i am 83 00:06:00,940 --> 00:06:05,640 over it the beauty of prediction markets is the incentive structure is the 84 00:06:05,640 --> 00:06:10,720 opposite the the incentive structure in the system is true it's a truth that's 85 00:06:10,720 --> 00:06:12,940 coming from people with skin in the game 86 00:06:14,020 --> 00:06:17,220 And, you know, and you think about it, right? Like, you sit sometimes at a 87 00:06:17,220 --> 00:06:19,820 dinner table at Thanksgiving, and everyone has all these crazy takes, and 88 00:06:19,820 --> 00:06:23,840 you're like, hey, like, let's put $10 on it. And all of a sudden, they get a lot 89 00:06:23,840 --> 00:06:27,360 more careful, right? The person that was so certain about their belief and their 90 00:06:27,360 --> 00:06:29,380 opinion, all of a sudden, they're not so sure anymore. 91 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:30,759 It's objective. 92 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:34,260 It's mathematical. It's statistical in a way that all the other mechanisms are 93 00:06:34,260 --> 00:06:36,060 not. And I love math. 94 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:40,640 I grew up in Lebanon with a single mom. 95 00:06:41,390 --> 00:06:44,870 I lived, you know, the way I describe Lebanon is a very volatile country. 96 00:06:45,850 --> 00:06:50,010 In this sort of complex, constantly evolving dynamic environment, I found 97 00:06:50,010 --> 00:06:51,510 math to be a refuge. 98 00:06:51,890 --> 00:06:54,990 And prediction markets are a bit of an application of that. You want the people 99 00:06:54,990 --> 00:06:58,690 that are doing the research. You want the people that are, like, very sharp or 100 00:06:58,690 --> 00:07:02,290 well-informed or smart. And imagine a society where we basically tackle a lot 101 00:07:02,290 --> 00:07:04,550 of our big questions by thinking more. 102 00:07:20,919 --> 00:07:22,000 Another Capri Sun? 103 00:07:22,580 --> 00:07:25,760 Yeah. I just get nervous and I like drinking Capri Sun. 104 00:07:29,700 --> 00:07:33,800 We're a bunch of people who bet and trade on sports for a living and always 105 00:07:33,800 --> 00:07:35,520 trying to make as much money as possible. 106 00:07:36,920 --> 00:07:39,740 In terms of placing this bet, yeah, you know, you just get... 107 00:07:40,300 --> 00:07:44,240 Probably way too comfortable with moving around large amounts of money. 108 00:07:44,480 --> 00:07:49,040 Since Prediction Markets started offering sports trading, I've made mid 109 00:07:49,040 --> 00:07:50,040 -six figures. 110 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:55,360 I remember not that long ago when if Dayton lost 100 bucks, it would be 111 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:56,259 pretty devastating. 112 00:07:56,260 --> 00:08:00,300 And now I think it would probably take 30 times to maybe even register. 113 00:08:00,980 --> 00:08:02,680 And that's worth it to you guys? 114 00:08:03,220 --> 00:08:06,360 Making a million dollars in like two weeks? 115 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:08,920 That seems pretty great to me. 116 00:08:10,410 --> 00:08:12,450 And he celebrates like LeBron James. 117 00:08:13,010 --> 00:08:17,970 Wait, Belgium just scored. Yeah, we missed it. The prediction markets are 118 00:08:17,970 --> 00:08:21,910 faster than the streams, so Belgium scored before we actually got to see the 119 00:08:21,910 --> 00:08:26,850 goal. Oh, you made so much. This is crazy. DTM just made like $50,000 on 120 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:29,350 that goal. Look at him. Doesn't even feel a thing. 121 00:08:31,610 --> 00:08:36,210 The way it works, you have market makers, and then you have market takers. 122 00:08:36,720 --> 00:08:42,200 And in the vast majority of cases, the market makers are sharp or smart and the 123 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:47,760 market takers are not smart in the sense that they are making losing trades. 124 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:50,180 I mean, Dayton used to work at Jane Street. 125 00:08:50,480 --> 00:08:54,540 The people at Jane Street are often described as mathematical. 126 00:08:55,340 --> 00:08:59,600 They're problem solvers in the most advanced way. 127 00:09:00,420 --> 00:09:02,060 I mean, yeah, we're all. 128 00:09:02,790 --> 00:09:06,690 only able to make money because people smarter than us haven't entered these 129 00:09:06,690 --> 00:09:07,690 markets yet. 130 00:09:08,530 --> 00:09:12,010 Describe your perfect counterparty. I think it's just, like, someone who 131 00:09:12,010 --> 00:09:15,190 randomly, like, place orders and has, like, zero information. 132 00:09:15,570 --> 00:09:19,810 Yeah, someone who just logs in and just wants to bet on anything that they see. 133 00:09:19,950 --> 00:09:22,790 They're not making a sophisticated choice as to what they're trading. 134 00:09:23,150 --> 00:09:24,450 They're just buying or selling. 135 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:26,700 whatever it is that's in front of him. 136 00:09:26,920 --> 00:09:31,480 It's a fancy way of saying that he wants to be against the 19-year-old who's 137 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:33,020 randomly firing off. 138 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:39,680 I'm 19 years old. 139 00:09:41,820 --> 00:09:48,580 I work as a chef and I like to bet on Kashi. 140 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,580 I think I've always been a little more... 141 00:09:54,540 --> 00:09:58,560 impulsive and maybe adventurous than my peers. 142 00:09:59,320 --> 00:10:04,740 A lot of my friends I grew up with didn't want to do crazy things as much. 143 00:10:05,540 --> 00:10:06,700 Crazy things like what? 144 00:10:08,820 --> 00:10:10,160 Gamble away all their rent. 145 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:21,300 When the Knicks made the finals, that's when I would say started the peak. 146 00:10:21,740 --> 00:10:24,080 of how much I was putting into the call sheet. 147 00:10:25,000 --> 00:10:30,880 I started with $1,000, you know, went up and down, and then I borrowed another $1 148 00:10:30,880 --> 00:10:32,520 ,100 from my roommate. 149 00:10:33,620 --> 00:10:35,640 You know, I lost it all, pretty much. 150 00:10:37,340 --> 00:10:41,600 I don't understand, but this is going very well. 151 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,140 Gambling can be incredibly dangerous and problematic for a lot of people. It's 152 00:10:48,140 --> 00:10:50,100 especially true for young people. 153 00:10:50,670 --> 00:10:54,870 I mean, we just saw Timothee Chalamet on TV saying, sign up for Kalshi, it's 154 00:10:54,870 --> 00:10:59,230 great. And one of the things that is most dangerous, in my opinion, is an 155 00:10:59,230 --> 00:11:05,850 influencer saying how they paid their rent by guessing the weather or some 156 00:11:05,850 --> 00:11:09,250 person on YouTube talking about how easy it is to get rich quick. 157 00:11:10,350 --> 00:11:14,350 The more people you expose to that advice, the more people who are going to 158 00:11:14,350 --> 00:11:15,350 have serious problems. 159 00:11:15,980 --> 00:11:22,640 be spain against belgium in los angeles this friday tonight i i'm i'm lucky in 160 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:28,120 boston and norway yeah we can see it the final screen which which isn't much you 161 00:11:28,120 --> 00:11:35,100 know but now my portfolio is 300 and it's pending payout but he is 162 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:39,620 still smiling it has been the cause of significant stress 163 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,180 Like I haven't paid my rent for a month because of this specifically. 164 00:11:46,120 --> 00:11:50,140 You know, I can say no, it doesn't have that much of a grip on me, but clearly 165 00:11:50,140 --> 00:11:51,140 it does a little bit. 166 00:11:53,500 --> 00:11:57,760 As of right now, I have $57 in my checking account. 167 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,520 Did you ever consider putting limits on your Kalshi account? 168 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:05,620 Yeah, there's a limit on my Kalshi account. 169 00:12:06,020 --> 00:12:08,740 It's whatever I have in my checking account. 170 00:12:09,420 --> 00:12:10,800 is the limit. 171 00:12:19,460 --> 00:12:20,460 All right. 172 00:12:21,460 --> 00:12:25,060 I'm going to hit the button in three, two, one. 173 00:12:27,040 --> 00:12:30,740 My name is Dustin Galker. I'm the host of this podcast, The Event Horizon. 174 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,140 We're here to talk this week about prediction markets. 175 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:39,400 Over the course of the World Cup, Kaoshi has had the biggest days it's had in its 176 00:12:39,400 --> 00:12:42,120 history. I don't think even I had a sense of how big this would be for 177 00:12:42,120 --> 00:12:43,120 Kaoshi. 178 00:12:45,020 --> 00:12:47,800 Prediction markets are the fastest growing industry this side of AI. 179 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:49,040 I have no doubt about it. 180 00:12:49,660 --> 00:12:52,020 These companies have gotten big really fast. 181 00:12:52,720 --> 00:12:56,920 Everything is disrupted by this. It's like it's changed how we view the world. 182 00:12:58,480 --> 00:13:03,240 Polymarket kind of dominated for the early 2020s. They're crypto native. 183 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,800 and mostly unregulated offshore until recently. 184 00:13:07,680 --> 00:13:09,160 Kalshi was doing this totally differently. 185 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,560 We spent four years getting regulated before we launched a single product. 186 00:13:12,780 --> 00:13:16,820 We have more than a thousand markets across politics, entertainment, culture. 187 00:13:18,860 --> 00:13:23,480 But the billions of dollars we're hearing are not on real-world events 188 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:24,480 that really matter. 189 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:31,100 Sports are about 85 to 90 percent of trading volume at Kalshi right now as we 190 00:13:31,100 --> 00:13:32,100 sit here. 191 00:13:32,720 --> 00:13:37,520 It may not be legally gambling, but what is happening is 100% just gambling. 192 00:13:38,580 --> 00:13:42,240 Kentucky's attorney general is suing the prediction market platforms. 193 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,820 Accusing them of facilitating illegal sports betting. That's what all these 194 00:13:46,820 --> 00:13:48,080 court cases are about. 195 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,940 Because gambling has always been the purview of the state. 196 00:13:53,880 --> 00:13:57,640 A year and a half ago now, Kalshi said, we're going to offer this, but we're 197 00:13:57,640 --> 00:13:58,780 going to do it under federal law. 198 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:02,320 No different than other exchanges where you can... 199 00:14:02,650 --> 00:14:06,530 buy a stock or sell a stock we don't have to worry about state laws we are 200 00:14:06,530 --> 00:14:11,170 legally under the federal government and that's it whether something feels and 201 00:14:11,170 --> 00:14:14,930 looks like gambling doesn't necessarily make it gambling speculation exists in 202 00:14:14,930 --> 00:14:19,390 all financial markets there's this patchwork state-based solution where 203 00:14:19,390 --> 00:14:25,830 every single state is like some sort of weird backdoor lobbying the cftc started 204 00:14:25,830 --> 00:14:29,930 off just being very hands-off then we got a new chairman of the cftc michael 205 00:14:29,930 --> 00:14:36,080 selig And they became not just hands-off, but an active proponent of 206 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:36,819 the industry. 207 00:14:36,820 --> 00:14:37,820 What is he doing? 208 00:14:39,820 --> 00:14:42,540 I have to say this in a way that won't get me in trouble. Let's see. 209 00:14:47,560 --> 00:14:49,480 Some people argue that it has to do with corruption. 210 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:51,480 Some people will say it's just deregulation. 211 00:14:52,000 --> 00:14:53,800 I'm not here to pontificate on that. 212 00:14:54,260 --> 00:14:57,640 It's hard to, like, separate the fact that Donald Trump Jr. 213 00:14:58,240 --> 00:15:02,120 is an advisor to both calci and polymarket certainly the president his 214 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:05,840 family has a vested interest in the success of prediction markets and we 215 00:15:05,840 --> 00:15:09,880 have a cfdc that is being very friendly now towards prediction markets 216 00:15:09,880 --> 00:15:23,160 there's 217 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:27,710 agreements and and walls that are put in place such that We're not dealing with 218 00:15:27,710 --> 00:15:30,130 any members of the president's family when it comes to policy. 219 00:15:30,770 --> 00:15:34,230 We don't engage with the president's family on any of these types of issues. 220 00:15:35,630 --> 00:15:40,350 So in my belief and understanding, there is no sort of conflicts of interest. 221 00:15:41,930 --> 00:15:44,730 The prior administration didn't like the prediction markets. 222 00:15:45,070 --> 00:15:50,510 I mean, that was very clear. They sought to ban the product with respect to 223 00:15:50,510 --> 00:15:52,150 political prediction markets. 224 00:15:53,250 --> 00:15:54,650 The courts threw it out. 225 00:15:55,150 --> 00:15:59,770 And then we saw the gates open. Prediction markets are absolutely 226 00:15:59,770 --> 00:16:04,010 exploding. Events in pop culture, in tech, in sports, in climate, in the 227 00:16:04,010 --> 00:16:08,250 world, in literally anything you can think of. I've been in the seat for 228 00:16:08,250 --> 00:16:13,090 about six months now, and there's no clear rules of the road yet. We're 229 00:16:13,090 --> 00:16:14,910 trying to put those in place as soon as we can. 230 00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:19,590 What's your message then to states who are trying to limit prediction markets? 231 00:16:20,010 --> 00:16:21,130 The law is clear. 232 00:16:21,930 --> 00:16:26,470 The law provides that the CFTC has exclusive federal regulatory authority 233 00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:30,290 over these markets because they are national markets. To any state that 234 00:16:30,290 --> 00:16:36,390 seeks to circumvent federal regulation and replace federal law with state law, 235 00:16:36,610 --> 00:16:38,030 we will see you in court. 236 00:16:49,310 --> 00:16:52,530 Bounced around this sort of startup tech crypto scene for a while. This NYU 237 00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:54,410 dropout crypto bad boy. 238 00:16:54,690 --> 00:16:55,690 He's now a billionaire. 239 00:16:56,910 --> 00:16:59,470 I think that when people think about prediction markets right now, all they 240 00:16:59,470 --> 00:17:00,470 think about is sports. 241 00:17:00,630 --> 00:17:01,630 I love sports. 242 00:17:01,710 --> 00:17:05,430 But I didn't start Polymarket for it to be a sports site. 243 00:17:06,109 --> 00:17:07,250 Found myself in a lucky position. 244 00:17:07,490 --> 00:17:08,490 It was during the pandemic. 245 00:17:08,630 --> 00:17:09,630 I was broke. 246 00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:11,109 I was living in the Lower East Side. 247 00:17:13,109 --> 00:17:16,710 And I was like, when are things going to open back up? When people talk about the 248 00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:17,710 vaccine, when's it going to be ready? 249 00:17:18,439 --> 00:17:20,880 when's shelter in place going to be over? Are things going to go back to 250 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:26,420 normal? And I was like, this idea of information markets is the perfect, this 251 00:17:26,420 --> 00:17:31,160 is the perfect use case in the perfect moment. And I think because of a mix of 252 00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:36,000 my nerdy passion of markets and this sort of like academic literature about 253 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:41,060 what today, you know, we think of as prediction markets, plus maybe just 254 00:17:41,060 --> 00:17:45,360 enough creativity and being so broke that I had nothing to lose. 255 00:17:45,960 --> 00:17:49,400 The triad of that, I was like, screw it, I'm going to go build this thing. 256 00:17:52,220 --> 00:17:56,220 You know, when polymarket really glowed up and became a thing, it was all about 257 00:17:56,220 --> 00:18:00,960 politics. I think the real watershed moment, the inflection point, was during 258 00:18:00,960 --> 00:18:03,380 the first debate between Biden and Trump. 259 00:18:05,180 --> 00:18:11,140 When Biden started stumbling with his words, 260 00:18:11,460 --> 00:18:16,280 the polymarket for him dropping out was skyrocketing. 261 00:18:16,780 --> 00:18:18,680 And the Polymarket for him winning was tanking. 262 00:18:19,360 --> 00:18:21,460 And someone said to me, it was like a really funny quote. 263 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,620 They were like, Shane, there's really two things that can happen here. 264 00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:29,800 Either he'll drop out and you build one of the most important sites in the 265 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:34,180 world, or nothing's going to happen and you've lost all credibility. No one's 266 00:18:34,180 --> 00:18:39,080 ever going to take Polymarket seriously again. And I was like, okay, let's see 267 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:39,929 what happens. 268 00:18:39,930 --> 00:18:42,730 We are coming on the air at this hour with breaking news. 269 00:18:42,930 --> 00:18:46,670 President Biden has just announced that he is ending his reelection bid. 270 00:18:47,090 --> 00:18:52,470 When he dropped out, that was a moment. Just a stunning announcement from... And 271 00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:59,190 then election day was this crazy moment where the way that the market moved that 272 00:18:59,190 --> 00:19:05,270 night and called Trump winning when the TV stations were still talking about, 273 00:19:05,310 --> 00:19:06,299 oh, it's neck and neck. 274 00:19:06,300 --> 00:19:11,360 At the very end, we find a tie nationally. 49% for Harris, 49% for 275 00:19:11,360 --> 00:19:16,160 Trump. Harris having a slight edge over Trump in the latest national poll, very 276 00:19:16,160 --> 00:19:20,460 slight. Polymarket was spot on the entire time. Yeah. That was one of the 277 00:19:20,460 --> 00:19:23,920 most gratifying moments ever, just because the idea worked. 278 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:29,700 The idea worked, and from that moment on, there was the level of credibility 279 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:32,820 that Polymarket had and the way people thought about it had just changed 280 00:19:32,820 --> 00:19:33,820 entirely. 281 00:19:38,800 --> 00:19:44,740 So prediction markets have gotten very popular, but there hasn't been a steady 282 00:19:44,740 --> 00:19:45,740 evolution. 283 00:19:46,620 --> 00:19:51,880 Another exotic idea from the Pentagon's Defense Advanced Research Projects 284 00:19:51,880 --> 00:19:53,520 Agency, DARPA. 285 00:19:54,400 --> 00:19:57,780 A futures market, if you will, in terror. 286 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:04,320 In 2003, the intelligence community was planning on launching public markets in 287 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,060 geopolitical events called the policy analysis market. 288 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:10,400 It was going to be open to anyone. 289 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:15,620 The hope was that the collective judgment of that market would yield some 290 00:20:15,620 --> 00:20:18,600 useful information for the U.S. intelligence community. 291 00:20:18,980 --> 00:20:23,940 What they mostly wanted to forecast were things like the political stability of 292 00:20:23,940 --> 00:20:29,300 regimes or what was going to happen to oil in upcoming years. 293 00:20:30,180 --> 00:20:36,180 But when they went to work and kind of advertised the market, they also talked 294 00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:39,750 about things like whether or not there would be a missile attack from North 295 00:20:39,750 --> 00:20:43,190 Korea or betting on assassinations. 296 00:20:43,510 --> 00:20:48,430 There was this just massive backlash against it. The federal government is 297 00:20:48,430 --> 00:20:52,210 encouraging people to bet on and make money. 298 00:20:52,720 --> 00:20:55,360 from atrocities and terrorist attacks. 299 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,580 You're gonna make money if terrible things happen. 300 00:20:58,820 --> 00:21:02,520 Why are we potentially creating an incentive for people to, like, go out 301 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:03,520 and try an assassination? 302 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:05,740 It is a tragic waste of taxpayers' money. 303 00:21:05,940 --> 00:21:08,300 It will be offensive to almost everyone. 304 00:21:08,580 --> 00:21:13,000 And the amazing thing is, as soon as there was any pressure, they folded. I 305 00:21:13,000 --> 00:21:15,160 mean, the whole thing was over within, like, two days. 306 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:20,520 I think the main thing that has changed, honestly, is that we are just much more 307 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:21,560 comfortable with gambling. 308 00:21:22,090 --> 00:21:23,710 than we were 20 years ago. 309 00:21:24,430 --> 00:21:28,750 So when you give people the chance to bet on pretty much anything, it gets 310 00:21:28,750 --> 00:21:30,090 complicated really fast. 311 00:21:30,330 --> 00:21:35,930 And it seems like there are three big issues. Let's call them the dark side of 312 00:21:35,930 --> 00:21:36,930 prediction markets. 313 00:21:37,150 --> 00:21:42,010 The first one is insider trading. A U.S. Special Forces soldier who helped to 314 00:21:42,010 --> 00:21:46,590 plan the January capture of Venezuelan President Nicolas Maduro has been 315 00:21:46,590 --> 00:21:50,630 indicted. Now pleading not guilty, authorities say he won more than $400 316 00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:54,490 ,000 using classified information to win on Polymarket. 317 00:21:54,690 --> 00:21:57,850 Polymarket says it referred the suspicious bets to the Department of 318 00:21:57,850 --> 00:22:00,310 Justice. The second problem is the problem of people... 319 00:22:01,090 --> 00:22:04,150 gaming, the things that are used to measure the outcomes. 320 00:22:04,430 --> 00:22:06,790 This involves tampered weather data. 321 00:22:07,110 --> 00:22:11,430 France's national forecaster has filed a police complaint after detecting 322 00:22:11,430 --> 00:22:15,290 suspicious temperature spikes at Paris' Charles de Gaulle airport. Somehow the 323 00:22:15,290 --> 00:22:19,470 equipment was tampered with, maybe a lighter, maybe a hairdryer, to give this 324 00:22:19,470 --> 00:22:21,670 5 degrees Celsius spike in the reading. 325 00:22:21,950 --> 00:22:25,290 Third, and I think by far the most consequential, is when... 326 00:22:25,840 --> 00:22:31,380 The existence of a prediction market actually changes what people do. 327 00:22:32,380 --> 00:22:37,160 There was a Cauchy market on whether or not George Santos would show up at the 328 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:38,240 State of the Union address. 329 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,480 I'm going to be there for the State of the Union in the gallery, guys. 330 00:22:42,860 --> 00:22:48,360 Santos had reportedly made a bet on Cauchy on the no side of the contract. 331 00:22:48,500 --> 00:22:51,680 That is, he would not show up. During the address, he posted... 332 00:22:52,010 --> 00:22:55,990 Watching State of the Union from an airport TV was not part of the plan. By 333 00:22:55,990 --> 00:22:59,750 skipping the speech, sources say he pocketed tens of thousands of dollars. 334 00:23:00,250 --> 00:23:02,950 I do think going forward, they're just going to have to figure out how to 335 00:23:02,950 --> 00:23:03,950 manage this. 336 00:23:10,350 --> 00:23:17,230 All right, so where are we on requesting materials from the 337 00:23:17,230 --> 00:23:18,710 traders in Georgia? 338 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:39,060 Any regulated financial institution is going to face people who come to commit 339 00:23:39,060 --> 00:23:41,860 financial crime, whether it's money laundering, whether it's insider 340 00:23:41,860 --> 00:23:43,500 trading, market manipulation, etc. 341 00:23:44,700 --> 00:23:49,080 So I lead our investigations and the enforcement actions that we undertake. 342 00:23:49,930 --> 00:23:52,750 Our team's grown quite a bit in the last year. 343 00:23:53,150 --> 00:23:58,170 We have about 15 to 20 employees, individuals who are just focused on 344 00:23:58,170 --> 00:24:02,190 surveillance. We have individuals who are surveilling for fraud, and then also 345 00:24:02,190 --> 00:24:03,190 a legal team. 346 00:24:03,330 --> 00:24:05,570 We've hired surveillance analysts from the FBI. 347 00:24:06,050 --> 00:24:10,010 We have people with backgrounds with the CFTC and the Department of Justice. 348 00:24:10,270 --> 00:24:14,790 There's been a significant increase in our investigative and referral efforts 349 00:24:14,790 --> 00:24:18,890 over the last six months in particular, just as the exchange has grown. 350 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:23,340 surveillance algorithms are running over every single trade happening on the 351 00:24:23,340 --> 00:24:28,120 exchange when they demonstrate some anomalous behavior whether that's a very 352 00:24:28,120 --> 00:24:32,900 well-timed trade a pattern of very well-timed trades a very significant 353 00:24:32,900 --> 00:24:36,940 price jump that occurs right after an unusual trade all those things might 354 00:24:36,940 --> 00:24:41,600 trigger a trade that comes across my desk or the surveillance team's desk so 355 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:46,400 then There's probably 100, 150 each quarter that are meaningful 356 00:24:46,400 --> 00:24:50,060 investigations that may lead to some finding of wrongdoing or disciplinary 357 00:24:50,060 --> 00:24:54,200 action. And we've made dozens of referrals to law enforcement. 358 00:24:54,960 --> 00:25:00,120 Any new product or evolution in technology leads to really smart, bad 359 00:25:00,120 --> 00:25:02,620 actors figuring out how to game that system. 360 00:25:02,980 --> 00:25:08,660 And the key is to try to stay one or five steps in front of them at all 361 00:25:08,660 --> 00:25:11,500 times. You won't always succeed at that. 362 00:25:17,610 --> 00:25:20,250 This is one of the big things that I spoiled myself with. 363 00:25:20,850 --> 00:25:23,710 This is paid for by prediction markets. 364 00:25:24,450 --> 00:25:30,970 With the press of a button, you can go from a sunlit room to what becomes 365 00:25:30,970 --> 00:25:31,990 total darkness. 366 00:25:34,610 --> 00:25:38,730 Brought to me 100% by Kalshi. My wife would not let me spend this money if it 367 00:25:38,730 --> 00:25:40,450 wasn't just, like, bonus money. 368 00:25:41,070 --> 00:25:46,150 Back in March of 2024, Kalshi really started to hit the culture markets hard. 369 00:25:46,590 --> 00:25:50,230 In theory, their music and movie markets, the way that you win them is by 370 00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:51,089 using math. 371 00:25:51,090 --> 00:25:57,570 So I turned a $10,000 deposit into over $200,000 in about 372 00:25:57,570 --> 00:25:59,090 six or seven months. 373 00:25:59,290 --> 00:26:04,030 The most common plays that I would do on Spotify is who will get number one 374 00:26:04,030 --> 00:26:05,470 during a given month. 375 00:26:06,390 --> 00:26:08,530 June 28th. 376 00:26:09,930 --> 00:26:12,950 I noticed some weird pricing on Olivia Deen. 377 00:26:13,370 --> 00:26:18,030 Somebody thought that there was a more than 11% chance Olivia Deen was going to 378 00:26:18,030 --> 00:26:19,030 get first. 379 00:26:19,310 --> 00:26:23,610 And I thought the true odds of Olivia Deen getting first place naturally was 380 00:26:23,610 --> 00:26:25,710 zero. This was an old song. 381 00:26:25,950 --> 00:26:29,470 When I dug into the details, I was very concerned. 382 00:26:30,090 --> 00:26:33,530 The data that I was looking at is the top 200 songs. 383 00:26:34,290 --> 00:26:35,730 Most of them saw a drop. 384 00:26:36,170 --> 00:26:40,470 Two of them were newer songs, like newer small songs. It's not unusual for those 385 00:26:40,470 --> 00:26:41,309 to go up. 386 00:26:41,310 --> 00:26:47,130 but for a well-established song to go up almost 20 percent like this drake song 387 00:26:47,130 --> 00:26:53,710 did or seven percent like this olivia dean song did this is a very strong sign 388 00:26:53,710 --> 00:26:59,590 that fraud was happening in theory somebody is stream botting or stream 389 00:26:59,590 --> 00:27:05,540 boosting it's just artificial automated ways of of listening to music where 390 00:27:05,540 --> 00:27:09,340 nobody's really listening to it they're just trying to run up the numbers so at 391 00:27:09,340 --> 00:27:13,120 this point i had seventeen thousand dollars that drake wouldn't get first 392 00:27:13,120 --> 00:27:16,860 place and i had thirteen thousand dollars that olivia dean wouldn't get 393 00:27:16,860 --> 00:27:22,120 first place and i was quite worried so i started sending emails i emailed cal 394 00:27:22,120 --> 00:27:28,940 shee i emailed spotify saying i was completely convinced that the drake 395 00:27:28,940 --> 00:27:34,170 and olivia dean's streams were being botted But they didn't seem to take it 396 00:27:34,170 --> 00:27:35,170 very seriously. 397 00:27:39,650 --> 00:27:46,350 Then the results come out, and I look at who's in first place, and it wasn't 398 00:27:46,350 --> 00:27:47,350 Olivier Dien. 399 00:27:47,450 --> 00:27:49,050 And it wasn't Drake. 400 00:27:50,910 --> 00:27:52,230 It was Malcolm Todd. 401 00:27:56,250 --> 00:28:00,810 Like, what? That makes no sense. Malcolm Todd wasn't even on the radar. 402 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:02,440 as a possibility. 403 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:08,580 And if you look at this chart, you can see, boom, just this huge spike. 404 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,180 So his streams went up by 70% in a single day. 405 00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,940 And then they paid it out. And then I was pissed. 406 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,700 Spotify removed the streams. 407 00:28:23,620 --> 00:28:26,180 And they admitted that they were fraudulent. 408 00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:33,510 But then in seeing how Kalshi handled it, how they just stopped replying i 409 00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:39,590 liquidated my calci account so i withdrew maybe 220 000 there 410 00:28:39,590 --> 00:28:45,150 are individuals who take a look at something and say i can conclude this is 411 00:28:45,150 --> 00:28:49,210 bots and it's manipulation and they may very well be right but from a legal 412 00:28:49,210 --> 00:28:53,530 perspective you need evidence to make that determination you can't just say it 413 00:28:53,530 --> 00:28:56,970 looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck so it is we're gathering the 414 00:28:56,970 --> 00:29:00,350 evidence we would need to make that determination but that's pretty much the 415 00:29:00,350 --> 00:29:05,990 most that i can comment on in terms of specifics about that okay patricio it's 416 00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:10,250 kind of the wild west right now regulation has not caught up to what 417 00:29:10,250 --> 00:29:15,970 these markets are doing at all and as long as it's the platforms basically 418 00:29:15,970 --> 00:29:20,250 policing themselves they're going to grow as much as they possibly can 419 00:29:21,710 --> 00:29:26,710 Offer as many markets as they possibly can and consequences be damned. 420 00:29:34,290 --> 00:29:38,250 It is day 11 of the U.S.-Israel war with Iran. 421 00:29:38,670 --> 00:29:43,250 The strikes lighting up the night sky and sending people rushing to shelter. 422 00:29:47,290 --> 00:29:48,970 My name is Emmanuel Fabian. 423 00:29:50,090 --> 00:29:53,810 I've been working for the Times of Israel for around six years now. 424 00:29:55,150 --> 00:29:58,390 I basically cover everything related to the Israeli military. 425 00:29:59,170 --> 00:30:04,050 I'm at this point covering the Iranian attacks on Israel and Israel's attacks 426 00:30:04,050 --> 00:30:05,050 on Iran. 427 00:30:05,890 --> 00:30:12,870 On March 10th, there was one of several missiles that day which struck outside 428 00:30:12,870 --> 00:30:15,070 the city of Bet Shemesh near Jerusalem. 429 00:30:16,910 --> 00:30:19,370 They reported there was no injuries, no damage. 430 00:30:20,170 --> 00:30:25,110 There wasn't anything particularly unusual in the grand scheme of things of 431 00:30:25,110 --> 00:30:26,110 this war. 432 00:30:27,070 --> 00:30:30,910 Much later that day, I get kind of an unusual email, essentially asking me to 433 00:30:30,910 --> 00:30:32,450 change my earlier reporting. 434 00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:37,410 And they were claiming that the missile that struck was fragments that were 435 00:30:37,410 --> 00:30:39,310 following an interception of a missile. 436 00:30:40,870 --> 00:30:45,500 And I respond to them and said, look, Residents told me that they felt a 437 00:30:45,500 --> 00:30:47,880 massive explosion and a shockwave that shook all their windows. 438 00:30:48,260 --> 00:30:52,280 And the army also confirmed to me that it was a missile that struck the area. 439 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:58,580 And then I started getting a barrage of messages. 440 00:31:01,700 --> 00:31:07,400 They wrote here, if you do not correct this by 1 a.m. Israel time, you're 441 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,840 bringing upon yourself damage you never imagined you would suffer. 442 00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:12,580 You make us lose $900,000. 443 00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:15,380 We will invest no less than that to finish you. 444 00:31:17,340 --> 00:31:21,060 It was scary at that point. I'm married. I have a young daughter. 445 00:31:21,960 --> 00:31:24,860 I didn't know what this person was actually capable of. 446 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:29,840 At that point, it was very clear to me that it was bets on polymarket. 447 00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:35,420 Essentially, the bet was, did Iran strike Israel on a specific date? 448 00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:40,900 You can see that the amount of money that was bet here reached $23 million. 449 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,580 Those who had voted no were the ones trying to convince me to change my 450 00:31:46,580 --> 00:31:48,240 reporting to say that it was intercepted. 451 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,540 But I was not going to change the story and it was going to stay exactly how it 452 00:31:52,540 --> 00:31:53,540 is. 453 00:31:54,220 --> 00:31:56,620 It wouldn't surprise me if there are many more cases. 454 00:31:57,620 --> 00:32:01,320 Journalists being threatened to change their reporting, I don't think I'll be 455 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:02,320 the last. 456 00:32:27,460 --> 00:32:30,060 Prediction markets are a cesspool. 457 00:32:30,260 --> 00:32:35,780 Even if it is legal, right, is there something immoral or ethically 458 00:32:35,780 --> 00:32:40,400 questionable here about betting on geopolitical events when lives are 459 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,400 potentially at stake? 460 00:32:41,520 --> 00:32:46,060 We haven't done a good enough job in terms of, you know, distilling why we do 461 00:32:46,060 --> 00:32:46,859 what we do. 462 00:32:46,860 --> 00:32:52,140 I know that we are probably in some, like, vibe debt, maybe. 463 00:32:52,730 --> 00:32:56,810 in terms of just how people kind of group PolyMarket in with a lot of other 464 00:32:56,810 --> 00:33:00,770 stuff. It's the latest allegation of insider trading on prediction markets. 465 00:33:00,830 --> 00:33:04,810 Someone opened an account on PolyMarket, and now they can make over a million. 466 00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:07,370 What are your thoughts on this? This is just another coinkydink. 467 00:33:07,590 --> 00:33:09,510 Cash is proven itself for the last few months. 468 00:33:09,850 --> 00:33:13,030 We are applying these rules. No matter who it is, if somebody's going to try to 469 00:33:13,030 --> 00:33:14,030 cheat, we will catch them. 470 00:33:15,150 --> 00:33:18,530 It's not some sort of offshore thing where it's done in the shadows. It's 471 00:33:18,530 --> 00:33:21,490 done right here in the middle of our financial system. 472 00:33:25,230 --> 00:33:29,150 I know what happens in this office. Like I know the conversation we have. I know 473 00:33:29,150 --> 00:33:33,270 what I care about and what drives me. And you have to kind of oscillate 474 00:33:33,270 --> 00:33:37,630 between like cutting out the noise, but also understanding people's criticism 475 00:33:37,630 --> 00:33:38,589 and concerns. 476 00:33:38,590 --> 00:33:42,290 Maybe there's things that you missed that other people are flagging and maybe 477 00:33:42,290 --> 00:33:44,690 they hate you, but maybe they're actually making some good points. This 478 00:33:44,690 --> 00:33:46,250 is inherently evil and bad. 479 00:33:46,470 --> 00:33:49,530 Do you think Kenzie's going to do the splits? It feels nihilistic, right? It 480 00:33:49,530 --> 00:33:50,530 feels like. 481 00:33:51,130 --> 00:33:52,250 Why are we betting on everything? 482 00:33:52,550 --> 00:33:55,350 There's a place for prediction markets. I think they should definitely exist. 483 00:33:55,570 --> 00:33:56,570 I think they have values. 484 00:33:56,670 --> 00:34:01,390 I just think there needs to be more guardrails, more thought put into how 485 00:34:01,390 --> 00:34:04,030 this industry has come about and where it's headed. 486 00:34:04,770 --> 00:34:09,790 Right now, it feels like all gas, no brakes. When this is everywhere and you 487 00:34:09,790 --> 00:34:14,989 have a completely gamblified world, people are not going to integrate it 488 00:34:14,989 --> 00:34:18,110 healthily into their lives. And I'm as guilty of that as anybody. 489 00:34:20,090 --> 00:34:21,310 I'm kind of just letting it ride. 490 00:34:21,670 --> 00:34:27,489 When everything's a market, the opportunities for cheating are basically 491 00:34:27,489 --> 00:34:32,510 endless. That's a reality that we're gonna, you know, be facing now, and it's 492 00:34:32,510 --> 00:34:37,530 gonna be much more difficult to sort of, you know, find what's true now, and 493 00:34:37,530 --> 00:34:38,670 that, I think, really worries me. 494 00:34:39,230 --> 00:34:43,510 With a couple months to go until the midterms, we've already seen volume 495 00:34:43,510 --> 00:34:45,350 that's far exceeded 2024. 496 00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:54,659 What I'm most interested in about them is their usefulness for forecasting the 497 00:34:54,659 --> 00:34:59,200 future. And these midterms are going to generate a lot of interest because 498 00:34:59,200 --> 00:35:00,580 there's a lot at stake in them. 499 00:35:01,420 --> 00:35:05,860 And so in that way, this is kind of one of the bigger tests of prediction 500 00:35:05,860 --> 00:35:06,860 markets. 501 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:10,520 I think prediction markets have definitely hit critical mass. 502 00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,500 The growth in the prediction market has been so fast because they work. 503 00:35:14,480 --> 00:35:17,360 We're bringing the prediction markets data next to the news, next to polls, 504 00:35:17,500 --> 00:35:21,000 next to everything else, so people can look at everything and make their own 505 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:22,000 independent assessment. 506 00:35:22,260 --> 00:35:26,080 I think that it's inevitable that everyone will be looking at it to kind 507 00:35:26,080 --> 00:35:27,080 of understand what will happen. 508 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:30,740 The only thing that you have to believe, to believe that prediction markets are 509 00:35:30,740 --> 00:35:33,460 going to keep growing the way they've been growing, is that there's going to 510 00:35:33,460 --> 00:35:34,800 be interesting news in the world. 511 00:35:35,540 --> 00:35:38,780 I feel like there's so much work left to be done in terms of like the inventive 512 00:35:38,780 --> 00:35:41,540 side of prediction markets and what could be that isn't yet. 513 00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,480 we're very committed to this vision because we think it's one of the most 514 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,540 important things we could be working on and i feel like if i don't go and invent 515 00:35:48,540 --> 00:35:50,740 that or realize that vision it probably won't happen 47520

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