Original subtitles

Judith Durham, welcome to the Australian Music Vault. Wow. So much to talk about.

As Julie Andrews would say, let's start at the very, very beginning.

Oh, wow.

Can you remember when music first came into your life?

Well, my mother apparently said that I sang nursery rhymes in perfect tune when

I was two.

I, of course, being two, I don't remember it, but really it was Dad with

the piano.

He had an old upright which was brilliant and he played by ear, so I

couldn't wait to get on the piano. Of course, we started with chopsticks, but

then I started piano lessons and I got very, I mean, really it was playing the

piano that was the most inspiration and the radio.

just hearing songs that I loved and wanted to sing along with.

So it was just magic for me. But I used to get frustrated because I wanted to do

it better, the piano playing.

I used to want to do it better. And for about a whole year or something, I used

to burst into tears because I couldn't do it.

But singing, not a problem.

Always could sing, loved it.

What were some of those songs that you remember hearing on the radio?

Well, there were 24 hours of sunshine. There were 24 hours of sunshine every

day that you were in love. Lovely messages, you see.

And forever and ever, just beautiful melodies.

And Vera Lynn's voice inspired me.

But just wanting to...

Just do it. I mean, I just couldn't stop doing it, making that noise, as it were.

But I didn't learn singing as such. It was the piano that inspired me to learn

until I was much older and then I was going to learn, officially learn.

Well, let's jump ahead to those years.

So you did study piano at the concert.

Well, initially from private teachers at mum and dad. No, not at the con straight

away. OK. Mum and dad had to scrimp and save to help me, you know, so to learn

anything and they were very, very kind. But because I became so, you know, good

at it and got my MSA, so my diploma in other words, so I learned from Ronald

Farron Price and that was...

Just the biggest blessing, you know.

And I was in love with him as well.

Oh, were you now? Yes.

He knows that too. Really?

Yes. Well, Ron Farron Price, that's a very, very legendary name.

Absolutely, Professor, of course.

Yes. Oh, absolutely.

He was so inspiring and, of course, I was learning on a grand piano and that

in itself was inspiring to actually have that experience.

So, oh, no, it was very magic, the whole thing magic. But I stopped in the end

because I just didn't have the time to do both and I started singing with jazz

bands initially because I was going to learn opera and didn't because I got

taken away by the idea of singing jazz.

And so then I stopped.

doing the piano virtually because there just wasn't time in the day, making all

my own clothes as well and trying to just do everything.

And what was it about jazz that lured you?

Well, it was all the rage.

It was all the rage. Everybody just loved trad jazz. The town halls used to

be... jam-packed and with the church dancers or, of course, Ernie Sigley or

whatever at the RSLs and, you know, it was a different, that kind of, you could

either be rock and roll or you could be trad jazz in those days until the

Beatles came along and then everything kind of changed.

But you were asked to sing with the Melbourne Uni jazz band?

Well, initially I had to pluck up the courage to ask a band, could I sing?

I just couldn't wait to get up on a stage and sing.

So, you know, the trombone player looked pretty friendly.

Vin Thomas, his name was.

And because he was so friendly and he said, oh, we'll come back on a quieter

note or something, you know.

But they were very, very welcoming and it turned out to be brilliant and I was

offered a job. And so for a whole year I was...

Singing with jazz bands and having a great time and the place got packed out

and I sang at the Myer Music Hall for the first time actually and got a

standing ovation.

It was amazing.

I remember jazz concert in those days.

And what about Frank Traynor? He was a part of the scene.

Yeah, but Frank Traynor, he was like the best.

I was so thrilled and honoured when I was going to sing with his band and he

had a different place to play, a great seven-piece band, of course.

He really wanted to...

inspire me to do better. In fact, he wrote the cover notes from our very

first EP because I was lucky to record with what was WNG Records in those days.

So I was given that opportunity for an EP, four tracks, as they say.

But The Seekers also because I'd met up, oh, it's a bit of a long story, but I

met Athol Guy a year later because I sang with the guy. Oh, hang on, yeah,

we'll get to that in a moment. But it's sort of, they all cross over.

Of course. Yes, it's hard to isolate.

Of course. Yes, yes. What were the jazz songs that you were singing?

Oh, well, the first one I sang, I sang Weeping When I Blues,

Reckless Blues, which was real blues, and Basin Street Blues, I think, because

I knew that.

But I had to learn, like to specifically get up and sing with a band, I had to

learn.

Yes, Ken Farmer, who was a drummer, who I had a crush on, of course, but he lent

me all his Betty Smith records and things.

And so that was how I got to know the repertoire.

And, yeah, so...

I thought, right, I only need three songs to be able to, I just thought,

well, I'll learn three songs.

So then one of the other musicians, they lent me to do a chord book so

I could get up with a jazz band so that we had all the chords so that you could

give the banjo player the chord book and, you know, it was real.

This is how you do it in the trad jazz world. And you studied the music and the

records of people like Bessie Smith, Billie Holiday.

Yes, I didn't appreciate Billie Holiday quite the same. It's a slightly

different era from Bessie Smith, of course, because Bessie was the real

blues and I found it very, very inspiring.

But at the same time, I was very inspired by Maria Callas.

and still wanted to do opera. So it was all very mishmash.

And Joan Baez came along, and so I thought, oh, I like those songs too.

And a lot of people like Skiffle, you see, so Skiffle music, and Skiffle was

on the radio as well.

So it made a big, everything was crossing over and all the influences.

But Bessie Smith, I mean, obviously Queen of the Blues, and I tried to

emulate her. That was really the voice.

that turned me on, if you like.

And people said that your voice was very strong, very distinctive. Can you

remember what someone like Frank Treanor said about your voice?

Well, he wrote in the notes, he said how, that I, oh golly, I'd have to quote

it, because he wrote cover notes on the back of the EP to say that I had the

qualities that blues singers twice my age.

would have normally because I was only 19, I think it was at the time.

Yeah, so, you know, and when I went on, I did television.

I did one IMT in Melbourne Tonight.

I did one of those because a girl wrote into the paper and said, oh, you know,

you've got to hear this girl, Judy Durham.

And somebody came along and listened to me and then I got on IMT.

Graham Kennedy?

Yeah.

What do you remember of that?

Oh, well, it was a disaster, really.

Why? Oh, I had a beehive hairstyle and it just didn't even look like me.

Oh, I can picture it now.

And Rosie Sturgis, who was in the back, she said, oh, if that girl was black,

she'd be doing really well or something. I remember that now. And whose idea was

the beehive?

I just thought it was the hip thing to do because everybody had beehives. It

was so stupid.

I mean, I didn't in those days. I still didn't have, I didn't have long hair. I

had, I'm just trying to think, my hair was too, I didn't have a fringe even at

that point. I mean, it varies over the years, but I think it was the picture on

the EP's cover, I'm at a microphone and my hair's taken to one.

over just to one side with no fringe.

So, and I've got my school jumper, which was cut down, because I didn't have any

clothes, you know.

So I had Dad's, I made, because I made everything, I cut down my old school

jumper, put some fringe around the neck, which was like a braid.

This was navy blue and then that.

The skirt was made out of Dad's old trousers and I thought I was hip as

anything and that's what I turned up every week at at the jazz club.

So it worked fine, yes.

Brilliant. I mean, you know, I used to make everything, everything.

Marcus, Jo and I both, we loved making our own clothes.

And in those days, everybody made their own things.

You know, you couldn't afford to.

Judith, let's move then from the jazz world to the Seekers.

How did that happen?

The Seekers. Well, look, you know, it's such a fairy tale.

The last thing in the world that I would have thought of aspiring to was anything

that required an image.

So, in fact, I thought probably I'll just make records and not have to be

photographed.

Anyway, and I was working full-time at the India Hospital as secretary to

pathologists. Mum said I needed to get a job paid more money.

So I went along and did an interview for a job.

Didn't have a clue what it was.

Rolled up, sixth floor of J. Walter Thompson.

I said, J. Walter Thompson, don't know what that is, but I'll go anyway.

And the next, at the end of the weekend, the guy rang up and said, well, you've

got the job.

So I was secretary to the market research guy.

And when I got chatting to the other girls in the typing pool, because I was

a secretary, taking shorthand and everything.

They said, oh, there's another account manager in here. His name's Athol Guy.

So because my sister had... Oh, this is so complicated, Brian.

My sister had introduced me to Athol on the phone once because Beverly used to

work on the Channel 9 desk.

Yeah.

So we had a chat and he said, oh, I'll come in and hear you sometime because I

was singing a downbeat.

And I never did come.

But that's typical Athol, of course, is every 45 minutes.

But then I rolled up in his office.

I went in and said, hi, I'm Judy Durham. Oh, right.

And he said, why don't you come along and sing with us tonight? I'm singing

with Athol, I mean, with Bruce Woodley and Keith Potka. As we do, we work as a

trio in the coffee lounge at Treble Cliff.

Interact, right? Yes.

So that was that very night, that very night. It's so hard to get my own head

around it. And what did you sing?

I just joined in on any traditional tunes that I happen to know.

And what were they playing? Because they were folk and you were singing jazz.

Well, no, because there's a crossover and this is what's so hard to explain to

people. You see, jazz crosses over into skiffle, Peter, Paul and Mary, of

course, but Lonnie Donegan and the Kingston Trio and just all and, oh,

I just can't think of the names.

We all clock over into these different genres which are acoustic-based things,

acoustic roots.

Like it's just so nothing sophisticated. It's just everybody knows down by the

result. You just can sing along. And my sister and I, we used to sing them.

We just did it and you just didn't think about it.

Do you remember the song that you sang with the Seekers, with the boys? And

they were called the Seekers.

They were called the Seekers, yes, and little did I know that they were looking

for a girl to join the group.

But I didn't have a clue.

I just rolled up and thought, oh, this will be, you know, interesting, and

probably was in the school jumper at the same time, you know. Yeah, your homemade

clothes. Do you remember what you sang?

Well, we would have done several things because it was a whole evening of

entertainment in the coffee lounge.

Yeah. Very small place. A little big draw, I suppose I could describe it.

And we shared $12 between us or something.

Well, it might have been, oh, God.

Down by the riverside. Well, definitely that. And anything that I knew of Joan

Byers's I could do.

Little Moses, for instance, or all my trials.

And, oh, the boys had some great things.

You know, these bones are going to rise again.

Oh, it's so hard to come to mind. But they had a very, and of course they were

all great performers.

I thought, gosh, I still didn't know they wanted a girl in the group.

But when did that happen?

I think they'd been looking for a girl. They wanted a girl in the group.

And when did they ask you?

They never did.

I honestly don't think they ever did because we were supposed to go to

England.

When Athol came and asked me would I like a trip to, well, at that time we

thought we were going to Italy.

Yeah.

And I thought, oh, yeah, sounds all right. We were going for 12 weeks, one

-class ship, and it was the Sitmar line and it was amazing.

But mum and dad said, yes, I could go. And we seriously thought we were coming

back. We had our return tickets and we were going to get on, because we got on

a cruise, I mean, really, one-class cruise.

But that's what we did. We were going to do that comeback and then do the rest of

what was supposed to be an all-round staying on the same boat cruise thing.

Very basic but great fun.

But then fate had it.

Athol and Keith being very clever.

They'd taken great photographs with the ship's photographer that we could send

ahead, our album that we'd made with W&G.

So you had recorded in Australia? We'd recorded in our lunchtime, that's right,

and we'd recorded with W&G Records.

Had you done many shows as a seeker? Well, not really because we did a few in

Melbourne because we'd all had to be done as well as doing our daytime jobs.

And then once we knew we were going overseas, we then...

went up to Brisbane, and that was basically my very first time literally

away from mum and dad.

And so, and I seriously made clothes and stuff to get ready to, crikey, I'm going

overseas.

And so, I've forgotten what your question, what did you say? How many

shows had you done as The Seekers?

Yeah, well, I suppose it was over, not that long.

Yeah, I mean, we'd done stuff around Melbourne. Yeah.

Yes, and I'd gone to Rob's Drive in the restaurant with the boys and then I'd go

back to the jazz club.

It was a pretty busy life.

But, no, it wasn't that long that we actually worked before because we knew

we were going. Yeah.

So you built up a repertoire for the crew.

Yes, and we were doing the gigs at the top end of the ship.

sitting down with this kind of folky stuff with, of course, the stand-up bass

from Aslan and the boys.

And then we'd go down the other end of the ship for the dancing.

And the boys had brashly said, oh, well, you know, yeah, sure, we can play for

dancing. So Bruce had a drum and Keith brought an electric guitar or

something and I think Ethel brought an electric guitar so we could play

pretending and I was on the piano and I got all my sheet music out so I could

play for barn dancers and whatever you did in those days.

Wow.

Judith, what was the magic of the Seekers in those early days?

The three boys and their voices. But then you added that extra something.

Look, all of us had something special. None of us, you would choose none of our

voices. Otherwise, you'd pick the best.

tenor voices or harmony singing. It wasn't like that. It was all so organic.

That voice sounds entirely different from Bruce's and Keith's. So different.

So nobody could have possibly auditioned the group. It happened because fortune,

God, whatever it meant, that was supposed to happen.

And a lot of people have said, what is the sound of the sneakers?

We were asked ourselves, we don't know. They just said, they call it the sound

of the speakers. It's a special harmony blend that our four voices, which may

not be the best in the world, but it works. And it's a pop sound.

That's what's so remarkable about it. So instead of us being a folk group, when

we got to England and we met up with Tom Springfield, who became our producer, he

was designing a song that could be played on the radio.

And, of course, it was I'll Never Find Another You. And all of a sudden, The

Sound of the Seekers was what people were told it was. It's The Sound of the

Seekers. It's a blend.

And that song, and we will go back to the first day, but let's keep going.

I'll Never Find Another You, written by Tom Springfield.

Am I right in saying that you were late for the recording?

Yes.

What happened there?

I slept in.

I put my alarm on for 6 o'clock in the morning thinking I've got to be up, got

to wash my hair because we were told a photographer was going to come to me. We

were at EMI Abbey Road.

Abbey Road.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, all our clothes.

Beatles were downstairs recording and we were upstairs during the daytime out.

So we did a lot of our recordings there.

So anyway, I was going to be beautiful.

I was very self-conscious about my looks, actually. But I thought, well, at

least I'll wash my hair.

Anyway, I slept in.

First thing I knew was somebody, the lady who used to come and do the sheets

or whatever, she goes, well, I was upstairs in an attic. I mean, literally,

I didn't even have a view of the street. I had a skylight. Oh, classic,

five floors up.

And she came and hammered on my door. It's a phone call for you.

Anyway, it was Eddie Jarrett saying, look, you're late.

Everybody's waiting for you. Where are you?

So he said, I'll pay for the packed taxi.

Just come over. Well, I'd never had a taxi before. I never couldn't afford it,

et cetera, et cetera.

Anyway, I rolled up. The boys had all put their parts down. It was the way

that we did it in those days.

Even the Beatles photographer, Jeff, I can't think of his other name, not

photographer, sound engineer.

Jeff Hamrick. Yes, him.

Yeah, we were talking about it when I last saw him.

And that's how we did it. You know, we all sort of stood in or stood back to

get the blend right.

I think the boys put their stringed instruments on, recorded them. Yeah.

That was one, because we had the speakers coming out in the studio.

You heard it from the fallback studio, you know, because it was all so

primitive.

So we had to listen to the speakers. It's like the speakers over there, but

you mustn't have it too loud because you might hear it over the, you know. Yeah.

Anyway, they did all that.

But they couldn't put their voices down till I'd turned up. I think this is

right. Yes, and Tom was going to, he was, you know, going to get the sound

going and all that stuff. So they were literally waiting for me.

And it was one take or whatever it was, thank goodness.

There's a flat note in it.

Is there?

I'm so embarrassed about it, yes.

I know, I'll never find another you. If everybody listens for it, there it is.

I'll always remember it. You left it in.

Well, you couldn't take it out. In those days, there was no such thing as multi

-tracking or anything. You either did the whole thing again or, yeah, so.

Judith, am I right in thinking that I'll Never Find Another You, written by Tom

Springfield, was nearly rejected for The Seekers?

Sort of. I'd been to the dentist and I came back.

And Tom was on the phone.

And he played me the track over the phone, actually. What do you think of

this? And I thought, like, you know, it's nice sort of thing.

Couldn't possibly. I mean, I knew nothing about commercial anything, you

know. So in that way, my knowing what makes a pop song

is the last opinion you would ask. I mean, bearing in mind I was going to go

to. opera like you know i've all sorts of music appeal to me so i couldn't have

possibly judged a pop song so yeah so i was really and i'm still to this day

absolutely stunned that i'll never find another you is so just

heartfelt by millions of fans around the world it is Our most amazing

song that touches people.

And I just, I marvel that my voice was the one that would be the vehicle.

Is it a great song to sing?

It's quite difficult for me. All the Seeker songs are quite difficult for me.

Yeah, challenging, especially as my voice got more mature.

I wanted to try and keep that pop sound.

So, yeah, I mean, I managed to, but...

They are challenging songs and it's a legato, what they call legato singing,

as I understand it, where you have to, I mean, these days pop singers don't

really do it. They'll cut the note off or they'll come off the note quickly.

They won't hold the note for its full length. Some do, a lot of beautiful

things do, but many of the people who are aspiring for pop music, they'll just

do things or gymnastics or something, which is very impressive in itself.

But it isn't what's required.

If you're trying to sing I'll Never Find Another You, which is how it was done

and people seem to love it, well, that's, you know, I used to do it

because that's what I'd heard good singers do in those days.

It's so funny because that was my upbringing.

And Vera Lynn, huge influence of mine.

You know, she absolutely was my idol, musically speaking.

And, you know, that's what she did. So I copied her and wanted to sound like her.

Did you ever meet Vera Lynn?

I have not... Yes, I met her years and years ago. In fact, I was lucky enough

to speak to her only about not that long ago, actually, on her... Just after her

100th birthday, we spoke. It was thrilling, actually, to have the

conversation. But...

Way back we were reminiscing that I did meet her at the Ivor Novello Awards when

I'll Never Find Another You won the award actually. Yeah. The best song of

that year. And I actually met her then.

So it was a big thrill to actually meet her. But it means even more now that

I've talked to her and she's still living. Yeah. What a legend, you know.

Incredible. Oh, and what an inspiration. And I hope people want to hear her voice

and are influenced by it because it's magic.

It gets into your soul. It's brilliant.

Judith, let's just go back. We need to get this date. In 1964, the Seekers set

off for England on a Fitmar cruise.

Well, first of all, we went and did the Crip Fiji Islands or something. Oh, did

you? Yes.

That was part of the deal, as it were, yes.

But yes, it's my cruise, so all expenses paid. We didn't fly. It was too

expensive in the plane.

We were on a cruise for five weeks. And you turned up in London and you stayed

there, which is unusual because a lot of Australian bands would work here for

months or years and then travel, but you went pretty early.

Well, this was very clever of the boys because they were in advertising and

Athol had the connection with the SITMA line.

So we were very fortunate and they had that flair because they'd been on TV

themselves as a group, you know, before long, before I came along.

So they sort of knew the ropes of TV and what was required kind of thing.

So, yeah, so by the time we got to London, they'd already sent ahead to an

agent who happened to be Eddie Jarrett, whose name might be familiar to you, our

record and our last Kinney tape with us being, with Graham

Kennedy hosting the show.

So people could see and hear us before we got there to a certain extent.

But not still on the front of the U track.

Myra, I think, was the track we'd already recorded in Australia. Myra,

Myra. Many boats in the harbour. Exactly. So that went ahead.

That didn't become a hit single, but certainly it was out on Oriol soon after

we got there.

But, yeah, so it was like the bay was paved because Eddie Jarrett, he heard

the track, saw the vision and thought he could book it.

So we were booked. We had a gig booked when we arrived.

We were on television that night, which was, whatever, this day tonight or one

of those evening slots.

We sang South Australia or one of those. I can't remember which song it was now.

So the TV audience saw us for the first time, just this newly arrived off the

boat from Australia. From Australia. Yes. And then there was a show with

Dusty Springfield.

That was a little six weeks. No, not even that. Two weeks after that.

So we did that TV show. We were booked up in.

Blackpool with Freddie and the Dreamers and I think because with all those

variety bills in those days and that evening one of the people who was an

opera singer funnily enough, she was sick and they had to have somebody fill

in and Dusty was on that bill and Tito Gobby the opera singer and quite a huge

variety of stuff and Dusty was on that show and the Seekers last minute

Horry Dargie, in fact, was the one who was very instrumental. Was he harmonica?

Yes. He was very instrumental in helping us get started and he was the one who

rang up, I'm pretty sure this is right, and said, look, tell the boys, get their

instruments back off the train, literally, because we were going to be

on the gig that night. So much happened by chance. He said, well, you'd say

chance, but it's just meant to be. And Dusty Springfield's on the show. Her

brother is Tom Springfield. Yes. He writes not only I'll Never Find Another

You. Hadn't written it yet, of course. No, but he also wrote A World of Our

Own. Oh, yes. And he co-wrote Georgie Girl. Yes, and The Carnival is Over. And

The Carnival is Over.

But at that stage, Dusty mentioned that she'd seen this group, The Seekers, and

told Tom about it.

And I believe Keith talked to Dusty about the fact that he wanted his

guitar, wanted to buy his old guitar or something. I may be getting this wrong.

So there was a lot of sort of talk. And Eddie Jarrett, meanwhile, had asked,

Tom, could you write a song for us?

Oh, so, and meanwhile, we were doing TV all the time. Yeah.

And me with a weight problem.

I'd be thinking, oh, my God, how am I going to look slim on television?

And they started making clothes for me, you know, really, because I had to find

two dresses for each of the programs every week because we were on TV all the

time. So we were really well known by the viewing audience, but we still

didn't have a record.

And Eddie Jarrett realised that we needed a record, a radio identity.

Yes, and this is where Tom came into it because he, bless him, wrote that

monumental song and it became a hit all around the world. A huge hit. Yeah, and

then two more because, as you said, world of our own and the carnival is

over. One, three in a row, all number ones, never been done before, so I

understand. And you're knocking off.

English bands like the Kinks. Absolutely.

The Rolling Stones. Yes.

You're in swinging London.

Yes, the Beatles.

Unbelievable. We kept them off the top of the charts. We were a challenge for

them. Yes. Did you have any contact with those bands?

Well, look, I was close to them. I think Keith spoke to the Beatles at one point.

I was rubbing shoulders with the Beatles when we were backstage at Wembley.

various ones, because we were all doing Top of the Pops together.

So every week, if we had a hit in the charts, we'd be rolling up to Manchester

to do the slot, because you can imagine, we had a continual run of hits

in the top 40, whatever, top 10, I suppose. Yeah, top 10, top 40. Yeah, I

can't remember how many it was on that chart.

So we were always there.

So we'd see all, you know, The Bachelors and everybody, The Kinks. I remember

having a chat with The Kinks backstage. He had a song for me to listen to.

Yeah, it's just, you know, so much going on. And the boys met, you know, a lot of

people. Right.

I'd be a bit shy.

So would they take part in Swinging London?

Would they go to the clubs, the speakeasies? I think they had a pretty

full-on life, as you would if you were in that position. But not you?

No, I was too shy.

And when you say before a weight problem, it was a problem perhaps of you

thinking that you had a problem.

Well, I had to squeeze into things. I was pretty...

I mean, remember, I was making my own dresses and a lot of the reason for that

was so I could disguise that I needed neck-to-knee corsets and stuff to nip my

waistline in. You know, I tried to disguise it the best way I could.

And were you looking at the other girls, the other singers, Dusty, Cilla Black,

Petula? Yes.

Well, a lot of them too, you know. I mean, I heard from later on that... that

Dusty herself thought she had a weight problem. Yeah. I had to idolise the

appearance of Dusty.

But Stella, of course, was renowned. She was really quite slim.

Petula, very petite person. Sandy Shaw.

Sandy Shaw, absolutely.

So I didn't realise in any way that I could compete physically at all.

I thought, oh, it must be that they like my singing.

It never occurred to me that physically anybody would really, you know, think I

looked all right.

Really? Yeah, yeah, really, seriously.

So now I see it differently, and especially now larger-sized women are

much appreciated now, you know, and it's the confidence and everything. And, of

course, I was confident when I sang.

Yeah. No question, that was not a problem at all.

But, you know, in front of the camera, and I was so grateful that the people

who were lighting me, you know, that I learned a lot about make-up

because the girls would spend ages and ages making it look like I had hollow,

indents in my cheeks, you know, and one girl...

She showed me how to, you know, do my hair. Oh, various things. And so I

learned a lot and they made special clothes sometimes for me and things like

that. So I am indebted. That was a period of about six months prior to us

having I'll Never Find Another You.

So I'd already had a lot of, because this was, you imagine, every week we

were doing TV.

Yeah. Two shows, two songs every week.

And here's this acoustic group again, the Seekers. And this time they're going

to sing Well, Well, Well or, you know, Lady Mary or something.

So it was remarkable how it all unfolded that we got. And I learned, they said,

don't wear green on stage because we were doing some of the theatrical shows,

the theatrical, you know, and they said, oh, whatever you do, don't.

wear green because it doesn't look good under the light.

Well, I wouldn't have had a clue because they were complaining because I was

wearing a different dress every night and they didn't know what dress I was

going to turn up in.

Dresses that you were making.

Many of them. And inspired by, am I right in thinking that you were inspired

by the Queen?

Definitely. Oh, absolutely. Because when I knew I was going to London,

absolutely, I thought, well, this is the right thing. I never would have gone

anywhere without high heels.

And, of course, gloves, matching shoes, matching handbag, matching gloves.

And I tried. Yeah, I aspired. I thought, well, she's well-dressed. Mum approved

of her and everything like that. So it wasn't until I got to London and

discovered that London was supposedly swinging, then I didn't know a clue. I

didn't know about swinging London.

Did you swing?

No. I was too shy.

No. My sister was there, though.

Beverly. Beverly.

Plus Beverly, because she had already gone to London a year or so ahead of me.

And it was the most amazing thing that there she was, living in Earl's Court,

of course, five floors up.

You know, I had the attic next to her and her friend, and it was such a

wonderful thing. And she showed me London. So she took me into Phoenix and

Bond Street and the places where she'd got to love.

Yeah. Judith, let's talk about Georgia Girl, a huge hit in 1966.

You identified with the lyrics?

Oh, yeah, very much so.

And, of course, Tom Springfield wrote it with Jim Dale, who's so remarkable as an

actor as well. How on earth did he write those very insightful lyrics?

Unbelievable.

But what a hit song.

It had the best production value and it still does today.

So it's very inspiring for young girls and all that sort of stuff.

Now, I've forgotten what the question was.

I'm interested in how you identified with the lyrics. The lyrics.

Yes. Shake off your downy feathers.

That's right. At first, I didn't identify with any lyrics.

I was a great one on melody.

and whether they moved me. So it wasn't until a bit later on that I started to

be inspired by the lyrics more so because I've sung it through the years

in my own solo shows as well as all the Seekers and more and more and more I've

come to be really appreciated and uplifted by it.

So it's a very modern, still today, song.

As you say, she had those doubting, if only I could have been inspired right

then to do exactly that. But I didn't have the confidence to do it, you see.

Do you think the boys realised your shyness?

No. No? I don't think so. I don't think anybody really, no. I think... You

didn't talk about it with them?

Not that I recall, no. They were terrifically helpful, friendly,

wonderful people.

But no, I was too...

Look, I was just introverted and I thought I was the only person. You know,

you always think you're the only person who's feeling what you're feeling and

it's only now I'm so much older and, of course, there's a lot more talk about

it. Now you'd talk about it, you'd tell people, but I used to keep it all to

myself. Yeah, so I really... I think I unnecessarily caused myself

sadness, you know. And, of course, I've always been...

I've never been a, well, not really a depressed person, although at one stage

when I had... When I got nervous exhaustion, I burst into tears. That was

1965.

We had the first big year and came back.

Yes, I did get nervous exhaustion and I had to not perform for a while.

So then I suppose, you know, because I had to have a tranquiliser or something

like that, I was only prescribed it for, you know, two weeks and then I wasn't

meant to have it again, which I never, ever did.

But, yes, I needed something to, you know, sort of...

Ground me, yes.

And what about fame?

Did that have a big impact on you?

I don't think I ever really felt famous.

I think I'm starting to feel famous now. The fact that you're here today and I'm

being put into this wonderful vault, I really mean it. I'm starting to feel

famous. But other people tell me I'm famous. But what about when you came

back to Australia after your time in England with all those hits?

There must have been wild scenes at airports.

Absolutely. Well, yes. I mean, Mum and Dad, but all the airport scenes, like

when we first came back, which was after a year away, and we touched down, every

single airport would be here, I welcome.

I remember particularly going to Brisbane and they were lining the

cyclone fence, reaching out for us all, you know, because you'd walk off the

tarmac. It wasn't, you know.

It was very much down home. In Melbourne, of course, you know, Essendon

as it was in those days.

You know, for mum and dad to be there and it was a real hero's welcome.

So, yeah, I mean, all that. But it's still, when I know now that we were

really competition for the Beatles, we were keeping them off the top of the

charts. There's no way in the world I ever thought that I was at that level.

All I was still thinking about, oh, my God, what am I going to wear?

That was always like, oh, because I had to.

I didn't have any assistance.

I had to get up early, do my own hair, pack my clothes.

You know, I had to do it all. And now I think, well, at that level of stardom,

you'd have...

Yes,

yes. You know?

You'd have Amalia in the background. Well, Amalia is not, I mean, she's the

most amazing person. But, yeah, but like an assistant for that job. Of course.

You know, I mean, Amalia is amazing that she does so many things.

She's not, you know, your average person at all.

What about, were you aware of the fact that Australian artists...

back in Australia were possibly watching the Seekers and watching them knock the

Stones and the Beatles and the Kinks off the charts? Well, I know more about it

now and especially because of the blessing of the internet, which didn't

happen then. You know, people would write to us and I'd get a phone message

and all that.

But now we've got the benefit of this amazing tool at our disposal. So we've

learned a lot more about ourselves now.

But at that time, you didn't really realise.

No. I remember very now distinctly, I had a letter from someone, an Aboriginal

lady, and she said, oh, you know...

that she loved the Seekers music and, you know, we used to dream of the

time... We had our home on the rubbish heap, I mean, seriously, and we used to

dream of the time when this land would be your land and this land would be our

land. So that was... I thought, oh, my God, an Aboriginal fan.

We never met any Aboriginal people.

It's just mind-boggling. Like, when the Seekers played the My Music Bowl in that

huge crowd we had, 1967...

It's unthinkable that they hadn't done this.

There was no vote. The Aboriginal people weren't even being.

And they're having all this adulation.

And where are the Aboriginal people? I didn't know a single Aboriginal person.

Were you aware of that then?

No. I don't think anybody thought of it. It's awful.

It's awful.

I'm just so ashamed now. But then the awareness just wasn't there.

I remember when I was in school, which was down in Hobart at the time, and they

said that the teacher said that the last Aboriginal person in Tasmania had died.

And I thought, oh, that's good.

I thought, well, that tidies that up.

It's horrendous. Well, you've made up for it, though. You've been very active.

It's wonderful.

Oh, look, I feel so blessed that still in my lifetime I've been shown that this

can change. Yeah. You know, and we've got to all be very, very sensitive about

it. We've all got to be really put the Aboriginal people first.

They were here first.

It's really important to think, well, how much they feel about this. Of

course. That's what's still missing.

Yeah. So I'm doing my best and hopefully I live long enough to...

you know, still helpful.

Judith, tell us about that incredible homecoming concert, 1967,

the Myer Music Bowl, 200,000 people.

Absolutely astonishing.

Of course, Hector Crawford's wonderful audience because it was music for the

people, for Moomba actually.

But nobody expected such a huge crowd. We'd already played it the year before

and 100,000 people turned up. But this was like 200,000. 10,000 people. It was

like for one person for everybody in Melbourne.

One tenth of Melbourne's population. That's right.

And they've got an aerial shot of it because Channel 7 was going to televise

anyway. And so that was happening and so they've got an early, like an 11 o'clock

shot. But this still wasn't when the hugest crowd, which was later in the

afternoon.

where they were all the way down to St Kilda Road.

So we didn't, we were kind of not really prepared for it. I think we had about

seven songs prepared.

Right. But people had been sitting there, you know, all day, up from six o

'clock in the morning or something in the heat, just thrilled to bits to be

there, out over the hill, because in those days there was no barrier.

That's right.

That's right. So people didn't...

care that really, well, you weren't meant to be over the hill, but they all

still were there and all the way down.

Do you remember your feeling when you walked out onto that stage?

Total awe, of course, awe.

Very exciting.

To be honest, I do remember that it was, because it was a very hot day, I do

remember being worried about a dry mouth, you know, but that didn't last

long. But I do remember thinking about that, oh, you know, yeah, to keep my

mouth moist.

But it was just all so unexpected.

And such a, we had the Navy band as well as the symphony orchestra.

Right. So it was a lot of people on that stage.

And we walked on. Of course, it was the old rock face as it used to be. Yeah.

You know, and we sort of appeared around the end of the thing.

But, and of course, I had the emerald green dress, which I'd brought out from.

From Melbourne, sorry, from London, I knew I needed some clothes because I was

going to be going on tour back in Australia and I needed some clothes. So

I was really lucky to be able to get that dress, which was in a shop in

Knightsbridge, as I recall, off the peg and it fitted me easily and never

dreaming it was going to become something of an iconic dress.

Of course. Yeah.

I think it's taffeta. I'm not really 100% sure, but it looks a bit taffeta

-ish. Well, I think it's on display at the Australian Music Vault, so people

can make their own mind up. Look, I'm thrilled that they see fit to put it on

display. It's so nice because all my homegrown fashions, I didn't make that

dress, of course, but everything's kind of, it had to come from somewhere.

How did I find it? Wasn't it brilliant that it happened to be there in that

shop?

It fitted me. By then I'd lost enough weight that it fitted me, you know.

So many things have to fall into place for something like that. Did you have an

idea of the style that you were projecting?

Not really. No. It's been very helpful to discover that apparently I was

projecting a style.

Now, some of that, it was always to try and emphasise my narrowish midriff, like

my rib.

is a bit narrow.

So that style of dress at that time was lucky because it was what you'd call a

princess style, I think. Not quite sure about that, but the narrow midriff. So

it was a bit of shape without having a waistline nipped in like the later,

earlier dresses had been.

But quite conservative.

Always conservative. I think you'd say demure almost.

You know, I...

Once or twice I used a low neck, but I was sort of a bit self-conscious. And

then later on, though, more colourful, more floral dresses. More floaty. Yeah.

Yes, but nothing was ever really defined as such until later.

In fact, there was...

A website not long ago, I can't think what it was called, but they said it was

the Judith Durham look. Right. And they got a model to make, and I thought, oh,

I've got to look, you know. But for me, it was just that it was the fashion,

obviously, at the time, and this narrow ribcage thing, sometimes a high neck,

even though it didn't have the long sleeve.

But some of it was just because I loved those.

You know, and the hair to one side, of course, that in a way came of necessity.

I found that easier to handle.

Yes, and it just, things kind of evolved. And then I got known for it.

And I didn't realise I had to look, you know. So it's really nice to find it

out. And it was organic.

So you do the big show in 67, but then eventually you feel like you need to

leave The Seekers.

Yes. I mean, there was no contract with us, you know. It was always like, well,

if any of us want to leave, this is what we all said to each other. Had it been

discussed over the years? Yeah, from the time we realised we were a group because

I was going to stay in England.

That was a big thing to turn up our return tickets back to Australia and

stay in England.

And so at that time, we all kind of said, oh, well, if any of us want to

leave, we'll give six months notice.

But, of course, you see the group, and still to this day, I honestly think the

group would have become more and more successful.

I don't see any reason for it to have stopped, which is a huge

blessing.

And yet you stopped it.

Well, yes, but you see, it's so hard to put your head back to it.

In those days, if you got to the age of 24, by the time you were 25,

you were an old maid.

So if I hadn't got married, so I thought if I'm ever going to find Mr. Right,

I'm going to have to leave and do something different.

You didn't think it could happen within the confines of the band?

No. I had crushes on all three of the boys.

From time to time, from when I first met Keith and saw him in the back of a... He

killed a match. I never went to football, but on this occasion I did.

There was Keith up the back. I looked at Keith all the way. I was 14.

Never dreaming I was going to meet him one day.

And then, of course, I got a big crush on Bruce when we went to the treble clef

and I'd be looking at those beautiful blue eyes across the guitars in the

treble clef. Oh, you know, and he'd drive me home and, you know, but oh, you

know. It was like, oh, I better not, you know.

And then later on I got a crush on Athol.

I remember he was kind. But nothing was ever kind of spoken or anything like

that. And little did I dream that I was going to meet my Mr. Right, Ron, one

day. And I met John Ashby, who was the sickest. I mean, I met John Ashby and he

became my boyfriend just prior to when I, I mean, how can I say?

He became my boyfriend while I was in The Seekers at that point. Yes. But we

spoke of marriage at one time, but it didn't really seem like it was going to.

He was not faithful to me. I mean, he knows.

And so I thought, no, my husband's going to be faithful to me.

So anyway, that's what happened. And, of course, it turned out I had to pluck up

the courage because I needed a musical director.

If I was going to go solo, this was a big thing.

And so I gave them a six-month notice. We were in New Zealand at the time. How

did they react?

Well, I can't remember.

I mean, it was depicted in the Georgie Girl musical as if they were upset.

But I don't truly... Isn't it funny? I can't... I take their word for it.

Absolutely, I wouldn't dream of doubting anything. But it's just that I don't

remember that because I was not...

happy in the situation i needed to make the change and you wanted to sing jazz

no no no all sorts of music okay oh no no it wasn't like it wasn't a musical

differences situation well i loved all sorts of music yeah i wanted to sing

with orchestras and i wanted to do everything and you felt you couldn't do

that with the seekers not a variety of music it always had to be a specific

kind of song with the seekers that was very difficult for us to find suitable

um vehicles for the three boys you know in messages as well that was quite a

difficult task and so but to sing orchestras and of course it turned out

in the end i was right well i'd already started writing songs with david riley

even colors of my life we'd already written even though i was still in the

seaters yeah so i had more strings to my bow that i wanted to do things before i

would leave to get married and have children of course which is what i

thought so Thinking, oh, well, you know, I'm going to be an old maid unless I,

you know, do so.

So, but because I was giving the six-month notice, you know, that was a

period of time.

You thought, I'd better find a musical director. Yeah, well, it was Eddie

Jarrett who said, don't forget, you will need a musical director. I didn't dream

I'd have a musical director.

So he said, why don't you try Ron Edgeworth, who had been...

The group, the Treble Tones, he used to be on the Variety Bills as well as on

the Seekers, touring with the Seekers with his group, the Treble Tones, as

well as earlier in the show, opening the show as a trio.

So Ron and I got chatting backstage because I had the thrill of singing my

solo. My one solo song was The Olive Tree, which Tom Springfield had written

for me.

And the boys used to sing...

their solo, I can't think, 10,000 years ago, Rattler,

the day there was a trio.

So Ron and I would have a chat in the wings while the boys did their thing.

Oh, he's nice. I sort of liked him. But I wasn't dreaming we were going to have

a romance.

Never dreamed in a million years it was going to develop into anything like

that. I knew, and I asked him for his phone number because I thought he'd be,

because Eddie had said, you know, musical director. Musical director. So

Ron came around, wouldn't eat the cake I'd baked for him, especially because it

wasn't made with wholemeal flour and it had eggs.

White flour.

No, no.

He was very, very principled and he was already a vegetarian.

Really? So this was like a whole new ballgame of like this person.

We hit it off very, very well in every respect.

And that was when there was a flicker of romance?

No, no.

And it turns out both of us had resolved, no, this was going to be a

professional relationship. Yeah.

And so he committed, he sort of signed a contract with me or something for a

minimum of two months working with me, during which time we would tour.

Not tour America. I mean, do the record in America, which was the Christmas

album, and to come back to Australia to do the New Zealand tour.

And then I toured Australia. So by then, Ron and I, we'd gone and stayed on a

health farm together.

And, you know, we toured and all that. And I did my television special, which

was Judith Darn special, a big deal.

And so we realised we had a lot in common.

And we realised we liked spiritual subjects.

An approach to the world.

Absolutely. So much to share.

So it was a remarkable match.

And then we started to fall in love. That would have been two months after

he'd come out to Australia. But we had to admit to each other there was more to

this. Because he had a girlfriend.

I mean, that was also like, oh, my God. Because he was going to stay in

Australia. And that was, I mean, a big shock.

you know, and for his brother too because Patrick decided to stay in

Australia too and he came out for our marriage.

Right. You know, so it's amazing what Australia's done. But anyway, so anyway,

Ron and I were so matched and it was a match made in heaven really. And you had

a wonderful life together.

Oh, bless him. He changed my life in so many ways. I love being with the

Seekers. We still to this day, we're very, very good buddies and terrific,

wonderful.

match in the way it is, especially musically.

But this was another whole dimension.

The other dimension of my life which was missing. You know, the spirituality, the

environmental thing, health, everything.

And the sad thing is, of course, you've got motor neurone disease.

Who would have thought?

That obviously was a huge shock.

So Judith, you go back with the Seekers. There was a Seekers reunion in the

1990s. Yes, that was the Silver Jubilee, of course. Of course. But this is a new

Judith Durham.

You're a person who's perhaps more developed spiritually.

What effect did that have on the band?

I don't really think I've chatted about it with the band in that way.

It was definitely a change. I mean, a lot of things happened at that time

because, of course, very soon after that, Ron was diagnosed with MND.

And, of course, the big adjustment for me was the fact that I was actually

going back into a group situation.

Yeah. That was very, very difficult.

Emotional, actually, apart from the fact it was emotional to see the boys.

But it was very...

because all of a sudden I wasn't my own person anymore.

I had other people who were in my life and we were now doing sound in a

different way because when I worked with them prior, it used to be an acoustic

band with maybe a drummer, but here we had a huge sound system and lights and,

you know, somebody on the side of the stage doing sound and lights and likely

it was a really big deal.

And how were those shows then?

Oh, it was all very successful.

But it was just an entirely different experience.

Yeah. Do you feel like you performed differently?

Yeah, I had to. But it was a different experience because of the sound being

different. Because I was used to singing in an auditorium, sort of projecting,

oh, it's so different.

And we were even checked out, did we want to use our earpieces? Yeah.

Can't stand them. We tried them for a couple of... Right. Can't stand them. I

don't know how people perform with them because it's not like a real auditorium.

So that's just me.

But this is the way things are done now. So it was good to have the opportunity

to try out what would The Secret be like in the 90s. And that's what it was like.

Very successful. What about the fans?

Oh! They were mind-blown. They were so, so thrilled.

Yeah. Yes. And then, of course, little did we know. I thought that was going to

be the end of it at that time.

And little did we dream that another 25 years would go by and we'd have the 50

-year anniversary.

Remarkable. It is.

Remarkable. And, of course, then I was going to have a brain hemorrhage to sort

of stymie everything.

And, of course, we had our musical opening, being the Georgie Girl musical,

and all of a sudden there's our life story on the stage. How was that?

Oh, it was excellent.

It was frustrating because I couldn't change things. Oh, but it wasn't quite

like that. That aspect of it was jolly hard and still is hard to bear.

the reality that people have put all this effort in. And this amazing singer

who was sounding and looking better than me, with the Judith Durham hairstyle.

So I was having a chance to see how...

people perceived us and our place in the pop world, really.

So that's been a lovely reason to stay alive longer, to sort of see, and even

with the Music Vault opening, to see how the public, what part of what you've

created helps to give the public a perception of where the Seekers and

Judith Durham, where we fit.

It's been amazing.

It was wonderful to have you as part of the Rockwiz show.

At the Music Bowl and I can remember sitting next to Paul Kelly and at one

point we were in tears watching you rehearse The Carnival Is Over.

Gosh, what a privilege.

That was so fantastic.

I couldn't believe that that was happening and seeing people, as you say,

people in tears, people in the audience in tears.

You see, that's the dimension you don't, when you're being that person back then,

you don't realise what something's going to mean to people another 50 years on.

So I'm so pleased we've shared that together, Brian. Really fantastic.

And that song is very powerful.

Oh, yes. And I suppose music is powerful like that, isn't it? Oh, yes. And the

combination, the words and the music are so important.

That's really, you know, I feel more and more, especially as my life changed,

where it was always just the music that I...

most about, how the lyrics become so much part of that whole experience for

people as they go through life.

Of course.

Let's just talk for a moment about young women entering the industry.

Do you have any advice that you would give them?

Advice to young women?

Well, you see, you need to be yourself.

My strong belief is that if you can live the life you want to live and

that, it's hard to say it, because there are so many influences now and

particularly because it's a real industry now, you've got to be so

mindful that other people need to make money as well as yourself.

Otherwise you might as well give up and go home.

So you've got to be so careful about what you do. Which song, you know, are

you going to sing? Because you could be known, as I am, you could be known by

that song, for the rest of your life and you've got to live with it. And

categorised, put in a box. Categorised, absolutely.

Somebody once said, a journalist said, crystallised by your own immaturity.

You know, this was by a Don Moraes, I think his name was, and he said that

because he was doing an interview on Twiggy in a very modern contemporary

magazine. It was...

Twiggy was the new up and coming.

And they were doing me being interviewed and Twiggy being interviewed.

Right. Yes. This is so amazing when I think about it.

So, and you can see, I mean, Twiggy was one. Now I'm thinking, oh, gee, I'm not

slim enough and all that. But I didn't even really know that much about Twiggy.

So I don't know quite why I've deviated into that. Well, also, I think it was a

quote from you. You once said, you know, why do people have to become sex

symbols? That's right.

Yes.

I feel sad for people who project that image, especially as it can't last

forever. You know, it's not something... And I need... You look at me as a prime

example. I was down on myself, you know, very critical of myself and have always

been to a certain extent.

But the longevity is what...

I mean, if you've got a young image and you can't project that for the whole of

your life, even somebody like a footballer, you can't keep that going.

It's got to be, you've got to have something else to go on to.

So to have the gift, the gift of music, the gift of being able to sing, making

any sound at all, but as long as it's something you enjoy.

See, I get frustrated with these programs where you're being judged and

you get struck off with all. a talent in the world but somebody's got to get

knocked off and i feel so sad because everything everything's got to be judged

yeah instead of just giving the person look at the chance i had to develop yeah

you know singing at the jazz clubs just doing you know everything just never

being crystallized in my own immaturity as it were except in the case of the

group sound of the speakers with the one song

So other than that, I had a chance to develop in all sorts of ways.

But also you saying you were down on yourself, perhaps that gave you

additional impetus and determination.

Absolutely. And that's a big part of it.

Absolutely. I had my astrology sign once done a chart and it said tenacity of

purpose was one of my qualities in the astrological.

Absolutely. I so much believe in that.

You know, that's what, you know, you've got to keep going. You've just got to,

that really is a key thing, I think.

Very important.

But not to let your looks be the means of that. That there's got to be

something beyond that which gives you meaning in your own life, not just that

you go, oh, I wonder how I look. I hope I look good enough. Because obviously

that was part of me as well, which wasn't a good thing at all, you know. Do

you feel that women are being more and more respected and encouraged?

Do you feel like we've turned a corner?

Well, there's a lot more emphasis on the importance of women and having careers

and reaching the last ceiling and all that sort of thing.

I think the emphasis is, yes, turning a corner, but we've still got that same,

you know, all the things that are still controversial.

There's a lot more talk about it. I never thought about the fact that I was

a girl with three boys.

I mean, when you think I dealt with that without realising that just to be able

to do that. I used to be in tears sometimes.

You know, I do remember that. Really? Because I was self-conscious about

something that had happened or I couldn't win my points, that I felt so

strongly about something. But, oh, no, the boys wouldn't agree, so I'd have to

let it go. And there were three of them. Yes, three of them. And they were

strong. Strong men.

Strong men and all very, very respectable, important men in their own

field. But also sensitive and intelligent.

What an amazing combination.

Yes, all of them.

All of them. Wonderful, wonderful men.

So for a girl to come along who knew her mind, even though it was too shy to sort

of express it.

I'm a very opinionated person, I think, but often I can't express it.

And I'd like to have a say. I like people who listen to what I say. Just

listen. No, let me say it.

That is very important to me, to be heard.

As long as somebody's heard and understood the point, then I'm happy to

set back, as long as they've taken that time to listen.

So that's really important.

Well, Judith Durham and what you stand for and what you have been is now

preserved and will be heard.

in the Australian Music Vault. Oh, isn't that a thrill?

That's an astonishing statement. Thanks for just saying it like that, especially

from your ears. My voice, your ears. Yes, yes.

And you think it is important that the vault exists to commemorate and to

remember and to preserve?

That's extremely important, but what's missing... I'm just throwing this in.

What people don't have a picture of is how did any of my memorabilia end up

anywhere? It's been all around the world, all the places we've been talking

about.

On the balcony with mildew coming in, when we lived in the bush in Queensland,

mildew, moths, my wedding dress got, I think it's rat's urine or something.

It is astonishing how any of it has survived.

So what they need to do is think if somebody's got aspirations, they need to

give some suggestions.

What can you do with the things that might be treasured in case it becomes of

value to somebody? Because otherwise it's just chance.

How amazing, you can have a Judith Dome exhibit at all. You know, otherwise

you'd have to sort of put all the photographs on and say, oh, well, that

was what she used to wear. But you'd never actually witness.

going up to a showcase and there's that dress.

So I don't know. The green taffeta dress. The green taffeta dress.

But you did the work and so you had the fame and you moved people.

Well, I had that, yes, but how do you hang on to it? See, the boys, I see some

digits there. Athol didn't even keep his double bass.

Like, you know, they didn't keep any of their clothes.

So, you know what I mean? It's like, well, what do you do with this stuff?

You've got to downsize or you've got to move.

And, of course, you just can't keep hanging on to stuff in a garage.

That's the problem, I think. That's right.

Yes. So thank God that the Music Vault even exists.

How wonderful.

So we're getting there. But that's got to be like for the people who are 20,

well, you know, five years old now, if they have an aspiring thing to think,

well, I'm going to be photographed for this or whatever, wearing my dress.

You know, we treasure the footage, don't we? Of course. We treasure the memories

and we thank you for all you've given us. Gosh, my great, great pleasure and

so thrilling to talk to you today. Thank you. Thank you, Judith.