Original subtitles

Now we can start.

So, welcome Mr. Harari. Or may I say

Yuval?

Yuval is fine, perfectly.

Yuval, I'm honored and excited to have

the opportunity this evening to uh

to pick your brain, but also hopefully

to get to know you a little better. Um

get to know the man behind the books and

the lectures. And and I understand I'm

just in time. Mhm. Cuz before we started

this interview, you told me that coming

Sunday you're leaving for your your

annual off-the-grid retreat meditation.

Yeah. I'm going for 2 months meditation.

Yeah, but it's also 2 months of not

talking at all? Complete silent. I mean,

not talking to people and no phones and

no computers, no books, no writing, no

nothing. Yeah. Uh you know, to detoxify

the mind. Yes.

So, no talking. So, don't hold back now.

You can still You can still talk. You

get every opportunity in the next what?

90 minutes.

Um and without I mean, I I didn't want

to dive too deep right away into the

details of meditation cuz I hope we'll

Yeah, we'll get to that later.

We'll get to that later probably, but I

I did wonder what you miss the most when

you're away for those 60 days. Is it Is

it your husband? Yes. Oh, no no no. I

wanted I wanted to give you three

options.

Ah, okay. Okay. Pretty obvious.

that you said yes right away.

No, I wanted to say is it your husband,

your cell phone, or your dog? I don't

have a cell phone.

Uh it's it's definitely my husband. I

mean, my dog is currently he's 14 and he

has cancer and he seems to be in his

last days. So, it's it's really kind of

I hope it'll it'll it'll wait until I

come back from the meditation retreat.

He's doing well now. He's He's taking

these cannabis drops. I mean, he's not

taking it. We We are giving it to him.

Wait, you're giving weed to your dog?

Not weed. It's You know, it's the the

extract that the the medicinal oil.

dog or to your husband?

yeah. And he's not smoking, you know.

You're not rolling him joint. No. No.

And uh we we just kind of spray it on on

on on his food and he and it it really

improves his his condition.

Really? Uh it seems so. And there is no

placebo effect on these dogs. I I know.

That would be funny though. Placebo

effect in dogs that you're telling him

this really works and then he thinks,

"Yeah, you're right. Yeah." Yeah. Yeah.

So, 60 days of no talking.

Um and we are now we are We're setting

off on a journey through your head

basically and and and through your life.

And to do so, we've asked you to pick a

handful of uh movies, TV series that are

meaningful to you in one way or another.

And I happen to know that watching TV

series is one of the main hobbies of you

and your husband,

Yes.

right?

Yes.

are you typical binge watchers? No. I

mean, he tends to be more of a binge

type. I tend to be like, "Oh, we need to

digest this episode before we move to

the to the next one." So, there is often

a conversation around it. So, we often

end up watching two episodes in a row.

Okay, so not the whole season

No, no, no, no, no.

in one night. I mean, we just yesterday

night we watched the first episode of

Succession of the new Ooh, the new the

third season. It's amazing. I mean, it's

so good. It's like Shakespeare for the

21st century. I haven't gotten a chance

yet. I had to watch all the the the the

movies that you are about to discuss

this evening. Yeah. Um how about we take

a look at the first clip you selected.

It's an educational children's cartoon

series from late '70s.

I think even early '70s, yeah.

Early '70s. I watched it in the like

late '70s, early '80s when I was 4, 5

years old. Yeah.

And it kind of completely blew my mind.

Yeah, we were born in the same year,

1976.

'76.

'76.

Yeah. I also watched it as a kid. Mhm.

Um it's um I mean, when I watch it now,

I'm surprised again and again that some

of the things I write today in my books,

and I think that oh, this is something I

just thought about like today or or or

this year. And then I watch it, and I

know it was already there when I was

like 5 years old. It was on TV. You

basically plagiarized it. Yes.

Maybe consciously Unconsciously.

unconsciously

Yes. from your childhood because it's a

series about the history of humanity. Uh

it's originally French, entitled Il

était une fois l'Homme, which means Once

Upon a Time, Man. Um

why why why do you want to kick off with

it without

giving away the full story?

It it it inspired my my love of history.

Mhm.

And as I said, it really blew my mind

that you know, I mean to

as a kid trying to understand the world,

why is the world the way it is?

And then you watch it and it tells you

that the world wasn't always like this.

It was completely different.

And how things keep changing over time.

And I think it shaped to to large extent

my view of the world. And

it has I think I I I I don't know

it's difficult to put a number on it,

but I I credit it to some extent with my

becoming a historian. Wow.

So basically this is the origin of Yuval

Harari. As a historian, yes, as a

historian.

Wow. Once upon a time, man.

First of all, pretty harsh scene for a

vegan.

I wasn't vegan then. No, you're No, not

as a kid, obviously.

And well, then then the cat's out of the

bag. This is where you got your

information from. Millions of readers

all over the world wonder where does he

get his information from? At least some

of it. I mean, watching it now, I mean,

again, it's I mean, it's all sexist.

There are no women there. There's just

this one woman who does nothing

throughout the whole thing except

cooking.

They hand out the food.

out the food and that's it. Even Even in

the '70s, history was written by men.

Yes, still. Still. But But But still, I

mean, it's it's such a rich

show in

makes it so good for you?

You know, it it starts with evolution,

which, you know, growing up in in Israel

in the 1980s was not obvious. We still

don't really teach evolution in in in

school.

So, you know, watching this kind of a

powerful image or a powerful narrative

that sticks in the mind

and also, you know, the basic

understanding that humans are animals

that still most people reject.

Most people around the world today.

Yeah. And so, you were not taught that

as a young boy. No, I mean, we were

taught the Bible.

okay.

we I come from a secular family and I

went to a secular school, but still in a

secular school in Israel, you learn like

tons and tons of Bible. You don't learn

evolution. But you don't learn anything

about dinosaurs or fossils or

dinosaurs, kids like dinosaurs. You

probably hear about dinosaurs. But you

know, that the whole process of

evolution and where we human beings came

from and ancient human species, maybe it

was mentioned here and there, but you

get far more Bible

than that.

But but what did you think then when you

watched this? You like, "Wait a minute.

No one's telling me about this."

I'm not sure. I mean, you know, I mean,

the world is so complicated when you're

five. I mean, it's still complicated

even today. But you just to make sense

of it and you get so many different

points of views and stories that don't

really add up. So, it took me

many many years to integrate

the different narratives

that I heard from different places.

Yeah. And I also to discount some of

these narratives. Like to understand

that that the Bible is just it's not the

the history of humanity. It's just a

story that some humans invented 3,000

years ago and became extremely powerful

and and and successful, but it's it's

just a story.

And your parents did not at least did

not forbid you to watch

No, absolutely not. No, no. Again, I

came from a secular family. They were

very much in favor of of this. But um

again, you you go to school and and

until today, you learn mainly Israeli

history and Jewish history. You learn

Again, you learn an awful lot of Bible.

But, even in history class, it's mostly,

you know,

you don't learn anything about China.

You don't learn anything about, I don't

know, the agricultural revolution. You

learn something about the Roman Empire,

but mostly, what did the Romans do to

us?

And then you learn about the French

Revolution, it's mainly about what

happened to the Jews in the French

Revolution. So, um

But, every country has their tunnel

vision, right?

Yes, absolutely. I In lower school

school, I learned about, you know, how

great the East India Companies were,

right? Yeah. So, but this to you was a

source of proper information.

And especially

didn't realize it back then, but you

realized it later. Yes, it's kind of an

an alternative

understanding

of the world that with time became more

and more convincing and powerful and and

rich.

Yeah. And it's accurate, as I understand

you, correct? It's as accurate as an

animation series for for little kids can

be. Of course, it's not I mean, if you

go now to the latest findings, then no,

it's not 100% accurate. But, as an

initial view

of of evolution and history, it's it's

surprisingly good.

Sufficient. Yeah, and it raises some of

and

many cases In many cases, when you deal

with with kind of these big narratives,

the real question is, what are the

questions?

That okay, the answers that are being

given, they are corrected over time. You

have new archaeological findings and new

historical theories and so forth. That,

you know, people in the '70s didn't know

that Neanderthals and Homo sapiens had

sex and even had children together. They

thought they were two different

they were two different species and then

the Neanderthals disappeared and this is

what you see in in in in in the episode.

Now we know from genetic evidence that

yes, something like 50,000 years ago

some Neanderthals had sex with some

sapiens and most of us have some

Neanderthal DNA. It's like 2%.

2% 3% percent something like that.

Yeah. Now because I wanted to to quote

something from this particular episode

because the voice over says "Chances are

slim Cro-Magnon men descended from

Neanderthal men

since the two lived side by side for

5,000 years. Cousin or conqueror,

Cro-Magnon men did win out in the end."

So well obviously now we don't we don't

call it Cro-Magnon men. Yeah, I mean

anymore. The the the terminology

changes, some of the details change, but

what I said is is again, the questions

are the important ones. Yeah. Does Does

this clip give us any clues on why we

came to conquer the planet?

First of all again, it it ask the

question. Why did our species of humans

conquer the planet?

Yeah. Which is a very important

question. First of all to realize that

they were different species

and secondly to

this basic question of why we dominate

the planet. Yeah. We get different

answers to it. But do we get an answer

in this scene you think?

Yes and it's it's basically still the

answer that I give in Sapiens that it's

cooperation. You have the scene when

there is the mammoth

group the the group of mammoth One

spotted and the bands join together in

order to cooperate to hunt the mammoth

and this is also the the the answer that

I give in Sapiens that the real secret

of success of our species, our source of

power is not that we are individually

smarter or more creative, nothing like

that. It's that we are the only mammals

that are capable of cooperation in large

numbers. You know, chimpanzees and and

elephants and and wolves and dogs, they

can cooperate in small numbers. They

They are in packs. Yeah. So, the

chimpanzees can cooperate say 50

chimpanzees, a hundred chimpanzees,

because cooperation among them depends

on intimately knowing each other.

Chimpanzees also hunt, but to go hunting

with you, I need to know you personally.

What kind of chimpanzee are you? Are you

nice? Can I trust you? Now, the the

thing about Homo sapiens, we have this

amazing ability to cooperate with

complete strangers.

And this is why we can cooperate

basically in unlimited numbers. If you

look at the world today, so at least in

the economic sphere, we have a network

of cooperation of almost 8 billion

people. Like this shirt that I'm

wearing, it was produced by somebody in

Vietnam or Guatemala that I've never

met. But this network of cooperation

brings me my shirt. Yeah. And this goes

back to

uh uh of thousands of years ago

when sapiens first acquired this ability

to cooperate in in large numbers. And

this is our This is why we managed to

uh uh push aside or exterminate the

Neanderthals.

That We actually Neanderthals had bigger

brains than us. And individually, they

were physically probably more powerful.

And also intellectually, there are

reasons to think that they were not

inferior to us. But they did not

cooperate as well. As far as we know,

they couldn't They cooperate on on the

level of bands of say again 20, 15

Neanderthals. Sapiens could cooperate in

hundreds and thousands. And it doesn't

just mean that, you know, this image of

a big battle that a thousand sapiens

versus 15 Neanderthals. It's much more

than that. It's networks of exchanging

information, exchanging ideas. If you

discover a new herb that can cure an

illness, then you tell it to all the

other bands in in the area. And if

somebody discovers a new method to to

produce a knife or to hunt a mammoth or

anything else.

of mouth-to-mouth advertising.

Exactly. And and this is the the the

deep source of of our power, the ability

to cooperate in very large numbers.

Yeah.

It's funny how you mentioned the word

battle.

Cuz I

I want to suggest we go

to the next clip. As a historian, you

initially specialized in medieval

military history. Yeah. More

specifically, logistics.

Logistics, yeah. I was like my like my

my master's thesis was like the most

boring thing in the world. It was about

medieval logistical systems of how do

you feed an army on the march, how many

calories does a does a medieval knight

consume, and how much fodder each horse

eats, and where do you get the fodder?

And like if you go on a campaign and you

need to bring fodder for the horses. So

you you have a cart and you put the

fodder in it, but then you need horses

to pull the cart.

For something boring, you make it sound

pretty exciting. It's you know, I worked

on it for like 2 years. Um

in this regard, you want us to show

a military battle. Yes. From the HBO

series Game of Thrones.

I'm not even going to try to explain

who's fighting whom.

If you didn't see the show,

it doesn't I watched all the episodes

cuz I'm a fan, but even I I mean get

frustrated sometimes by keeping you

know, track of who's who and who's

belling who's trying to kill whom, etc.

All you need to know or all

the viewer needs to know is that there's

the one guy, the handsome Jon Snow. He's

talking to some other guy. He's the

leader of the moral

The wildlings.

Scots, basically, who live on the north

beyond the an anarchistic

uh

and then some other, you know,

power-driven king barges in and and

tries to take over.

Game of Thrones.

Why did you take us to the continent of

Westeros and particularly to this scene?

Well, I mean

as I said originally, I specialized in

medieval military history. Mhm. And even

more specifically in logistics. And then

I I watch this and I live I I like Game

of Thrones very much, but I I I I I sit

and cringe, you know, because I this is

so

unscientific. What you see here is

they're in the middle of nowhere,

somewhere in the frozen north, and

suddenly out of nowhere appears this

huge army of Stannis Baratheon

and surprises them.

And this is just absolutely impossible.

I mean, I'm I'm watching it and I'm

thinking, "How did they supply the

horses? Where did they get the fodder?"

It's The food, yeah. The food for the

horses, for the men. Usually in a

medieval army, the the the the most

common way is to just rob the the

villages.

You you pass through a country and you

just take the the the the bread, the

chickens, the eggs, the fodder to feed

your army. But there are no villages.

They are in the frozen north. So, the

other in in this situation, what

medieval armies do is you bring a supply

train with you. But the supply train is

very slow.

And it's, you know, it's it's pulled by

oxen and and and by by by horses and and

things like that. It's very difficult to

move a huge army through this kind of of

territory. They've never been there.

So, they they shouldn't they don't know

the land. And if they try to move a huge

army with its supply train, there is no

way that the native wildlings would have

missed it.

I mean, how can they be surprised? They

sure It's all

on the couch watching your favorite

series and then cringing because it's

not accurate. Is that correct? Uh in a

way because it's something that is very

close to home, medieval logistics.

I get it, but it's like watching the

Muppet Show and then getting angry

because frogs can't actually talk. No,

but but but it's it's kind of, you know,

to it it conveys a

deeply wrong view of, I mean,

what people often don't understand about

history is the logistics. Mhm. It's how

complicated it is to do simple things

like move an army.

And this is for instance what feeds into

conspiracy theories.

You know, the biggest problem with

conspiracy theories is that they

underestimate the complexity of the

world. Like they imagine that you can

control the world by, you know, you get

a bunch of billionaires sitting in and

around a table like this.

Yes, if you watch Shield and Hydra.

Yeah, and and and they release epidemics

and they start wars and the logistics

doesn't work.

No. Because yes, you can start a war,

there is no way you can predict the

outcome.

Uh you know, a real conspiracy is

something like the American invasion of

Iraq.

That went completely off the tracks.

Because there were no weapons of mass

destruction.

No, not just that. I mean, you have the

biggest superpower in the world invading

this third

third rate country

and it goes completely in an unexpected

direction. The country which probably

benefited most from the American

invasion is Iran. Yes, in this case.

how it really happens in history because

on the ground things get messy.

And the plans you make in your head, oh,

we land in the port and we I'll I'll

I'll move my huge army over the frozen

ice and surprise them, it just doesn't

work in in practice because oh, but what

we the horses don't have enough to eat.

Yeah, and therefore you do accept the

fact that there's actually ice zombies

and dragons. I don't like the ice

zombies and dragons, but I you know, but

that's okay. So this is kind of this is

the the the the their stick. The let

there be ice zombies, but um But at

least have a a proper

you know, view on or a proper display of

how armies move and Yes, because this is

something

for me which is more basic

to understand the complexity of

historical processes

and it has a bearing on how people

understand events today. But you know,

with zombies people see it on television

and hopefully they know that there are

no zombies.

But when they see the movement of

armies, they tend to think well, this is

this is much more accurate than zombies

and they they

they kind of use this to understand how

military events actually happen in the

world whether in the Middle Ages or or

today. And this distorts our

understanding of history. It is

portrayed or it is described as a

medieval it's said in medieval times or

it has this medieval Yes, feel.

Absolutely.

feel. That's that's what I was looking

for. But what what makes it medieval?

The castles and the swords and you know,

the technology is basically medieval,

the outlook or the kind of chivalrous

culture and you have kings and you know,

and certainly in Europe when you think

in terms of of an ill-defined time or

legend time or primordial time, it's

always the Middle Ages.

If you even you think about the Smurfs,

the Smurfs are basically in the Middle

Ages.

They they live in the village and there

is the nobleman in the castle and If I

was writing an article, this would be

the headline. The Smurfs are actually in

No, but I think this is this is well

known. You know, because you don't see

Greek a Greek city with all kinds of

elections and the forum and then no.

Usually legend time is the Middle Ages.

That is so funny. Never realized that.

Because most of our legends and and

except for you know, for for the Bible

and stuff, they come from the Middle

Ages. So

storytelling for us too as well.

Yeah, all all the children's fairy

tales, they're about princesses and

princes, not about consuls and praetors.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Let's move on to another fairy tale.

Money. The biggest of them all.

Um The Big Short, the true story about

how the financial crisis of 2007-2008

was triggered by the United States

housing bubble.

Um One unique aspect of this film is

that some actors will break the

so-called fourth wall

to directly address the audience and

explain complicated financial products

um such as um what's it called? CDOs,

CDUs, something like that. Synthetic

CDOs. Hm.

Uh disconcerting to say the least.

Um This guy, the investment advisor,

says society values me very much. How

come people put so much faith and money

into

in

into an obvious pipe dream?

Well, that's the basis of of the whole

of history, of the whole of society.

When we talked earlier about how we

ruled the world and not the

Neanderthals, because we can cooperate

in very large numbers. Yes. Including

with complete strangers, like the people

who made this shirt.

Now, the next question is what makes it

possible? What How come we can do it and

the chimpanzees can't?

And the answer is stories.

Uh fictional stories at the basis of

every large-scale corporation, there is

a fictional story. Now, it's very clear

in the case of religions that, you know,

a billion people can cooperate and build

cathedrals and synagogues or or go on on

crusades and jihads because they all

believe the same fictional story that if

you die in this holy war, after you die,

you go to heaven and How many virgins do

you want?

Yeah, and you know, for millions of

years you will enjoy all the best

things. No chimpanzee will ever believe

that. You can't convince a group of

chimpanzees to go fight another group of

chimpanzees by telling them, "Yeah, you

know, if you die, you get to chimpanzee

heaven and there you have lots and lots

of bananas and coconuts and whatever you

want." No chimpanzee will believe that.

In the same way I cannot convince a

chimpanzee to give me all his bananas

and say for a piece of paper.

week you get

the double the bananas.

Not in a week. No. Right now, I'll give

you this green piece of paper if you

give me your banana. Yeah.

No chimpanzee will agree. No. But humans

agree to it. This is why we can have

trade networks. This is why I can wear a

shirt that somebody on the other side of

the world has produced.

Because we all believe, I mean, the

greatest story ever told is not the

Bible, it's not about gods, it's not No,

the greatest story ever told is money.

You know, the the the biggest Nobel

Prize in literature that should be

awarded is not to the people who write

books, it's to the people who create

money.

It's the only story everybody believes.

Do we know who

invented

Well,

money? First of all, we need to

understand what what money is and and

and this it's a wonderful way that they

presented it. Money

people think that money is is

materialistic. You know, it's kind of

matter, it's it's But money is actually

one of the most

spiritual or mental things in the world.

It doesn't exist anywhere except in our

imagination, in our mind. It's

completely non-materialistic

and it's actually made of trust. You

know, the equation basically is money

equals trust. The things you make money

out of is trust. So, initially

there wasn't a lot of trust between

people, between strangers. So, the first

type of money that we know about for

sure was created in ancient Mesopotamia

around 5,000 years ago. And it was just

barley. Grain. Oh, barley. Yeah.

Grain. Grain.

Um food. Okay, food. And this was the

first money because people didn't trust

each other enough or the system. So, the

money was something you can actually

eat. Yeah, makes sense.

If Yeah, I mean if there is in I don't

know, like the the the global financial

meltdown, okay, I have my barley, I'll

eat it.

Um but then the next stage was gold.

And the amazing thing about gold, gold

has absolutely no value whatsoever. You

can't eat it. You can't eat it.

You can't eat it.

Uh you can't make useful things from it.

You know, iron, you can make an axe. You

can make a plow. You can make a knife.

Gold is a very soft metal. It's not good

for any of these things. The only thing

you make of it is status symbols like

crowns and jewelry and and and and and

statues of your gods. And money.

So, it's putting your trust not in the

gold

but actually in other people because the

value of the coin comes from the fact

that other people also value it.

And then it moved to paper.

That oh well, why do we need this this

cumbersome gold? You can just shift to

paper.

yeah. Yeah, it's it's much easier and

it's the same principle. The the the

value of the pay It has no value in

itself. It's just if everybody believes

the story that the the the bankers come

and tell us, So now this green piece of

paper, it's worth a banana.

If you believe it and I believe it and

the people in the supermarket believe

it, it works. I can go to the

supermarket, give this worthless piece

of paper and get a banana.

And then it moved to the next stage,

which is digital. Most money today in

the world is not even paper. If you take

all the papers and coins, it's less than

10%.

It's only

basically data in computers being moved

around. Like how did this shirt get to

me? I moved some bits in a computer from

this file to that file.

You ordered it online and Yeah, and then

the people got paid and digitally. And

you know, during the the current crisis,

governments have have have created

trillions, not millions, trillions of

euros and yens and and dollars. And how

do they do it? It's not like in the

1920s that you have printing presses

working all day. No, you did the the the

the president just goes to this guy and

tells him, "Okay, go into the file in

the computer

and whatever it's written, I don't know,

five trillion, delete the five and write

six." And that's it. And that's also

what we see happening in The Big Short,

right? There is a myth and then we start

piling up other myths on top of it.

They they creating money out of nothing

just by this kind of system of trust,

which most of the time works until it

doesn't.

Yeah. And we were watching the clip and

then you also said to me like this was

actually the first time I understood

Yeah. what they What is a synthetic CDO?

It brought down the global economy.

There was another scene in The Big Short

that struck me and because we discussed

earlier

this evening how you were you were

brought up in a more secular family,

right? But the school you went to was

you had there was Bible study.

was also a secular school.

a secular school, but the Bible was very

present.

was everywhere. Yeah, cuz there's a

scene in The Big Short that

where the the rabbi complains to we saw

Steven Carell also in this scene. His

character is Mark Baum. And then the

rabbi complains to Mark Baum's mother

that Mark Baum as a young boy is trying

to find inconsistencies in the word of

God.

I I mean, does it sound familiar to you?

Is that something you did as a boy?

Um

Yes, I mean, I it's I mean, from quite

an early age I understood that

the the Bible was not exactly the the

truth, the whole truth, and nothing but

the truth. I remember it was when I was

like 6 or 7 and I was asked maybe it was

in class, maybe it was by some family

gathering. I mean, who who who was the

first the first person, the first

people? Mhm. And the person expected I

would say Adam and Eve because this is

what we learned in in in school in in in

Bible. And I said Peking Man because I

just read that about, you know, this was

back in the in in the '80s and I just

read this, I don't know, this book that

said that that discussed Peking Man.

And then the archaeological finding from

China that was like 1.7 million or 1.5

million years old. And then I know that

it's much older than Adam and Eve, of

course.

So, what was the response of your

teacher?

Um they they were actually quite amused.

Really? Yeah, they they I mean, the

amount of Bible we got is nothing in

comparison to what you get in a

religious school. In an Orthodox In an

Orthodox school. Yeah.

I get it. Yeah. But still, I mean, you

grew up in Israel, history-laden

country. Too much history. Too much

history.

It's a It's a country suffering from

from far too much history.

Yeah. And and And you were a teenager

during the First Intifada, right? That

was like 1987.

In 1980 December '87.

Went on for 5, 6 years and and and your

father worked as a He worked as a in in

an arms In the in the weapons industry

like I don't know like I don't know like

a quarter of Israelis are working in the

weapons industry or something.

Yeah. So, but but how did these things

influence you back then?

I was very much interested in military

history. Again, this was my my expertise

in university at first was medieval

military history and the crusades and

things like that.

Yeah. Um so, uh But did you think it

influenced your choice of studies, for

example?

The the the focus on on military issues,

yes, very much so.

Uh and it's kind of grounds you

You know, I guess if I grew up in the

Netherlands, I would have a very

different view of the world. If you grew

up in the Middle East, uh you you you

tend to kind of

have um a darker view

of of humanity and of human history

because the the the violence and the

cruelty and also the stupidity is is all

around you. It's on your doorstep.

Yeah. You know, people killing each

other

over, you know, not over food, which

makes sense in some way,

but over fictional stories that that

other people invented. You know, I I I I

I I teach in Jerusalem,

one of the most famous cities in the

world, and you go around Jerusalem and

it's, you know, it's just a regular

place. You have stones and you have

trees and you have dogs and cats and

cars. It's it's just an ordinary place.

But then in their minds,

people create a second layer of reality

and superimpose it on top of the stones

and trees and and and cars, and they

walk around and they see angels and

demons and paradise and hell and all

these things,

and uh they they live in in this second

reality. I mean, one of the clips that

we thought of showing and we didn't show

in the end is is the Matrix. Mhm. Uh but

this kind of futuristic idea that people

will live inside a virtual reality

sometime in the future when AI and

computers will become over developed,

but people have been living in virtual

realities for thousands of years.

Everything around us is basically

virtual reality in a way. Yes, again,

there is the physical reality, of

course, of the stones and the trees and

the animals, but on top of that, we

impose

uh our fictions, our our our virtual

realities, our inventions. Whether it's

money or whether it's nations or whether

it's all these religious mythologies,

and most of the time what we see and

what kind of moves us

is the is the virtual reality. It's not

real.

If the coral reefs

or or or the Amazon rainforest, which is

this amazing creation of of nature which

took millions of years to create and

which really sustains our life, if this

gets destroyed,

people basically do nothing.

But if some, I don't know, the Western

Wall or Al-Aqsa Mosque or some other of

these, you know, buildings that we built

uh just, you know, 1,000 or 2,000 years

ago

and which are not really necessary for

our existence, if somebody would touch

one stone there,

you will all all hell will break loose.

And what does that prove?

That fictions are far more powerful

than reality

in

shaping

uh human history and politics and

economics. In the competition between

fiction and truth,

fiction, at least politically, usually

wins because the truth is just too

painful and too complicated.

And we don't only come up with fictional

stories about the world around us. Um We

also create them within ourselves. Yes.

And to illustrate this, you wanted to

show

another animated

clip. This time from a Disney Pixar

movie, Inside Out. Um A really a

wonderful, one of the best movies I've

ever Yeah, it's such a good

Very like at the very top of of my list.

It's about a girl named Riley and we're

starting at the beginning of the story

right after Riley's birth. Is there Do

we need any more context? Anything we

need to know?

It's I would say it's kind of taking

everything Disney has done previously

and just tears it to bits and throws it

away and here is a completely different

way to understand humanity.

Let's have a look.

One of your favorites. Yes. Yeah, but in

in 21 Lessons for the 21st Century, you

you write about Inside Out. Most viewers

might well have missed both its

neurological meaning and its sinister

implications. What are these sinister

implications? It basically says, you

know, most Disney movies, they tell you

look inside yourself and you'll find

your authentic true core and who you

really are and things like that. Follow

your heart.

Follow your heart and and all these

advices and here you look inside and you

realize that Riley is basically just a

big robot

controlled by not a single spark like a

soul or a spirit, but by a very

complicated neurobiological mechanism

which doesn't have a single self or a

single core. You have all these

different and sometimes con- conflicting

forces which are personified here as joy

and sadness and disgust and the fear,

but basically and and you know that the

movie that it just starts. It things

gets complicated, there is a problem and

and they they go to basically explore

Riley's brain. What's happening in

there?

And they never discover a core self.

They just discover more and more

complicated biological mechanisms.

And the implications, you know, they

they are shattering. That first of all

that you have no idea what's happening

inside.

And secondly, that as you explore, you

realize that there isn't just a single

self.

There is a a whole bunch of conflicting

forces and mechanisms.

Which is very much in line with what

modern science tells us.

But something that most humans refuse to

accept and certainly most Disney movies

don't give you that impression. So that

that's what's amazed you that all of a

sudden Disney

turned around a corner and

Like something gave us a different view.

Yes. And you know, I mean Disney's is

not so important. The the importance is

that this is suddenly a new view that is

being given to kids

about who they are and what makes them

function. Yeah, there is no little Riley

inside Riley and that's what you would

have

expected.

Exactly. And when when you first see it,

like the very first seconds, you think

that okay, joy is Riley's soul. Yeah.

But then you realize no, joy isn't

Riley's soul. Joy is just one element.

One of the captains in the mothership.

Exactly.

And um And so Riley also Mhm. her it's

Riley does not

um have one little Riley inside of her

telling what she wants or what she needs

or

it also said something about free will,

I guess. Um, you you never get any sense

of free will. No.

the Riley is just being controlled by

the conflict between these forces inside

her.

keep changing.

keep changing. And a very crucial

message of the movie is that none of

them is the real Riley. Again, the whole

problem, I don't want to ruin the movie

for those who didn't see it, but the

whole problem is that Joy thinks that

she is the real Riley and sadness

uh she's an intruder or something.

Mhm. And the kind of uh uh

big epiphany of the movie is to realize

no, Joy isn't Riley. It's all these

forces together that shape and control

Riley.

The idea of giving up a soul or a self

or

free will. I mean, that's you you

already mentioned for for many people

that's that's very hard. I mean, what's

left for us as humans if we have to give

up the idea of the self of the free

will. To explore the the reality. I

mean,

you know, my main problem is with with

the idea of free will and the self, it

makes us extremely incurious about

ourself. If my decisions just reflect my

free will, whatever that is,

then there is nothing to explore. Why

did I choose to agree to do this show?

Why did I choose this shirt? Why did I

choose this movie? Oh, it's my free

will, end of story.

But once you give up the the this

assumption,

you start really investigating what are

the many causes or or processes The

roads towards.

that shape exactly that shape our

desires. Where do they come like the

next thought that comes up in in my

mind? Where did it come from? Why this

thought? Now, I think we've arrived at

the chapter of meditation here as well,

right? Is that the the how you do it?

Mhm. But if we stick to the metaphor

the Inside Out metaphor and we so we we

take a look inside your head in in a

Disney way.

There's then Joy who loves watching

with her husband and then there is Anger

who's angry at what? Animal cruelty and

then there's Disgust disgusted at the

historical inaccuracies in Game of

Thrones.

Um what do these characters do when you

meditate?

They do their thing. I mean meditation

is not about trying to control them or

stop them. It's about just, you know,

observing what's happening.

But who's observing them then at that

That that's the classical question.

Um nobody's really observing them. It's

just a process of observation. There

isn't a self standing aside. There is

just a whatever is

is is a process not an entity. Now,

there is no point in kind of trying to

get too much philosophical or whatever.

It's it's all about the experience. When

when I went for the first time to

meditation retreat, the instruction was

extremely simple at first. Just just

feel the breath coming into your

nostrils and going out of your nostrils.

That's it. Just do that. Whenever your

mind wanders away, just bring it back.

And I couldn't do it for more than 10 10

seconds. And you know, 10 seconds

the mind goes somewhere. It takes me 5

minutes to realize I lost touch with the

breath and then bring it back.

And that's something you can train. And

this gets better over time, but that's

not the point. The point is you realize

something very very important about

yourself that you have no control or

very little control over the mind and

that you don't really understand what's

happening there. That's the really

shocking thing. But you created a

meditation for handling fame and

adoration.

Uh how how does sitting still for 2

hours a day and and breathing contribute

to not becoming a self-righteous

douchebag with a guru complex?

Which you're not, obviously.

Um, I hope not.

I hope not. I don't know. Because, you

know, and

it's

the the better you get to know your

mind,

it's much of it is about getting to know

your own weaknesses and getting to know

the stories that keep repeating in your

mind. You know, like a nation has a

national mythology and a religion has a

religious mythology. Each person has

personal personal mythology. Who am I?

Where did I come from? What are my

strength and weaknesses and whatever?

And usually it's just a mythology.

And I'll leave it

putting you on a pedestal is one of

those mythologies. Is that what you're

saying? Or It It could become very easy

I mean, we like our myth to be

flattering. And what's more flattering

than, you know, all these people telling

you that you're so smart and that that

you're like this and you're like that.

It you know, it immediately goes to the

head.

And if if you don't have a kind if if

you don't really make the effort to

observe what's happening inside, very

easily you create a temple of yourself

in your mind and you put a statue of

yourself like this

beautiful garden in in in the mind and

you get so much attached to it. And then

the moment somebody criticizes you in

some I don't know, TV show or in some

newspaper or in in in in a blog, you you

get so upset. How can they criticize?

I'm such an important person and I do so

many good How How do they dare criticize

me? And this is because you became

attached to this mythology

that that that you created in your mind.

Yes, you created it with materials from

outside. We always do that. But, does it

still affect you, criticism? Or not at

all? Yes, it does. Yeah, a lot, right?

Obviously, I'm human. I I meditation is

not a magic No. I mean, that's that's

the point about meditation. People think

that meditation is about getting rid of

stuff. The stuff I don't like about

myself, whether it's my anger or whether

it's my uh irritation or or selfishness

or whatever, I'll get rid of it.

And yes,

things change, but the really key the

the the really important thing is not to

get rid of stuff, is to get to know

yourself better. And especially to get

to know the stuff you don't like about

yourself, because it's easy to get to

know We all know the stuff we like about

ourselves. Uh let's move on to the

obvious next question, namely

if humans are computers, cuz you just

called Riley a a computer, can computers

become humans?

And yeah, and what does that even mean?

Uh the answer might be in the next

movie, Her. Um the story is set in the

near future, where the main character is

lonely and he falls in love with his

operating system called Samantha. Kind

of like a sexy Siri or a sexy Alexa in

Her.

Yeah, she said

this is an AI and Yes. she it says that

she's embarrassed. Mhm.

Um is she really and what would that

imply?

Uh there's so much to unpack in in this

scene. It's it's just amazing. Um

No let let let Maybe let's start

somewhere else. I mean Sure.

As a historian, I'm interested in the

past but also in the future.

Even the distant future, because it's

it's part of our identity. What makes

who we are is not just the past, it's

also the future.

And I have this very strong sense that,

you know, we have

deep down we are much

we are not just, you know, belong to a

nation or religion. All these things are

very shallow. Religions, nations, all of

them are just, you know, like 5,000

years old. Mhm.

And much more deep is our biological

identity, which we saw with with with

Riley. All these emotions

and and the body, they go back not 5,000

years. They go back tens of millions of

years. Like the the love between a

mother and a child, this is something

that's been around for hundreds of

millions of years. The breath, which we

talked about earlier, is hundreds of

millions of years. I still share that

with with reptiles.

I I I you breathe, I breathe. We we are

the same thing.

And then I look to the future and maybe

in a couple of decades, Earth will be

populated or even dominated by entities

that are not organic.

That they don't breathe. They don't have

emotions. Like the the potential of AI

is much much bigger than any historical

revolution. It's really a biological

revolution. Since the you know, for 4

billion years, all of life was organic.

And this is at least an an idea of

inorganic life forms. That's the biggest

thing that happened on Earth in 4

billion years. And it might happen in

our lifetime. Now, the biggest question

when it comes to AI would AI is

artificial intelligence. Yes. And the

big question is, will it have

consciousness, emotions, feelings? The

difference between intelligence and

consciousness is Intelligence is the

ability to solve problems.

Whether it's playing chess or diagnosing

a disease or a math problem.

Consciousness is the ability

That's That's intelligence. Mhm.

Consciousness is the ability to feel

things. Like love and hate and pain and

pleasure. Yes. Now, in humans and other

animals, they go together. We solve

problems by having feelings.

Computers so far, they have more and

more intelligence, but zero

consciousness. When a computer beats you

me in chess, the computer doesn't feel

happy. No, and he calculated all the

moves.

Yeah. So, it's a completely different

kind of intelligence. Now, nobody knows

there is a

maybe the biggest question about the the

the future is whether

we will have super intelligent beings

without any consciousness dominating the

planet, or whether we will have Or maybe

artificial consciousness.

Yes. Like we saw in in in here. Cuz

that's why I asked the question about

about her about Samantha being

embarrassed cuz that's such a thing of

the conscience. Yes, now we don't know.

We There is It's possible. I mean, there

is no scientific reason why

consciousness must be limited to organic

biochemistry and carbon-based life forms

and can't exist in silicon-based life

forms. Cuz we're also little computers

ourselves. We're just in a bio

mechanical

yeah. But so far, we don't see any

artificial consciousness. I mean, most

science fiction movies about AI are not

about AI. They are about AC, artificial

consciousness. The moment every movie

focuses on is the moment the computer or

the robot gains consciousness and then

either the the the the man falls in love

with the computer or the computer falls

in love with the human or they try to

kill each other or something like that.

Yeah, they take over the planet and then

kill all the Yes, but the So far, it's

science fiction. There is no indication

that computers are developing

consciousness.

At present, a far more frightening

scenario is that we will have super

intelligence without consciousness, the

same way that airplanes fly faster than

birds without developing feathers. So,

computers will become more intelligent

than us, far more intelligent without

having any feelings, any emotions

and they will dominate.

Is there a difference between a

Darwinian evolution and the AI

evolution? Yes, first of all Darwinian

evolution until today was organic. Yeah.

And this is not organic. But And also

Darwinian evolution is evolution by

natural selection. Here we have

intelligent design.

Yeah. So not the intelligent design of

the creationists in the Bible, a real

intelligent design. We are designing the

AI and then the AI will design maybe the

next generation of AI. So it's a

completely different kind of process.

But

if

if AI is taking over

um

No, let me let me rephrase this

question. I'm a human. I am a conscious

human being. We still don't know if AI

will have a conscience.

Yes. Um besides that, but like Riley,

I'm driven by joy, anger, fear, and

that's what motivates me. So what

motivates then an AI if it's not

controlled by humans? It develops its

own maybe non-conscious motivation. It's

it you know, AI is machine learning. You

don't program it. You build the basic

thing and then it learns.

Self-learning. It's it's learns and it

develops and you don't understand. You

know, it's it's it's it's very practical

today when you apply to the bank for a

loan and the bank basically lets an

algorithm decide your fate and it and

and the algorithm says no, don't give

this lady a loan and you ask the bank

why not? What's wrong with me?

Is it my face? Is it my

Yeah, is it my my the gender, the race,

whatever. The bank says we don't know.

The algorithm said no and we don't

understand even the people who designed

the algorithm don't understand the

decision that it is making and what even

more kind of frightening is as we saw in

in this clip it

it it's on the verge of having the

ability to hack human beings.

I mean if Riley is this kind of

spiritual self with free will, computers

can't hack us, can't understand us. But

we if we are basically a very complex

biological process,

then with enough data

and enough computing power, we are very

close to the point when computers can

hack human beings, can understand my

emotions, my likes, and my dislikes

better than me. Not perfect. You can

never hack something 100%. You don't

need 100%. You just need to know people

better than they know themselves, and

this is quite easy because most people

don't know themselves very well. So,

just imagine what happens when we pass

as the algorithm knows what I want

better than I than I know it.

You're a puppet. It can manipulate you.

It can press your emotional buttons. And

this is what is happening now with our

smartphones and all these, you know,

algorithms on social media.

why you don't have a smartphone?

Uh that's one of No, that's one of the

reasons. But basically, it's it's to

keep my my time. And you know,

over the last 20 years, the most the

smartest people in the world and the

best technology in the world has been

working on the problem of how to hack

human beings and control them through

the screens and small through the

smartphones. I'm no match to them.

If I give them access, they they win.

Yeah. So, I try to limit their access.

In that way. In that way.

Yeah.

Her is also about the basic human need

understood, finding someone else who

totally gets you.

Um yeah, to feel loved. And I think

that's also the common thread in the

Australian Netflix series Please Like

Me.

Created, written, performed by uh Josh

Thomas. I absolutely love this series.

I I I watched it like four or five

times.

Cried my eyes out at the end. Um why did

it appeal to you?

Um

well, first of all, I think it's one of

the he's one of the funniest people on

the planet today. The main character and

the main character Josh Josh Thomas he

has a very unique sense of humor. It

gets It It

It takes time to grow on you. I mean, I

was the first time I watched the first

episode and closed the TV and thought

I'm not watching that. And after a

couple of weeks or months, I tried again

and gave it a chance and it it kind of

it takes time.

And

it's it's just such I I never saw

something like this on television.

It was just, you know, so real in a way.

And what makes it so real for you?

Um,

the the way that the people behave and

and

again and this kind of deep

existential sense of humor. It's not

like funny haha funny. It's I think very

kind of

uh, mixture going again back to Riley

when joy and sadness mix together and

you get a kind of this is really how how

life is. It's not like in the comedies.

It's a gray area. Yeah, and it's not

black and white. It's not haha or

laughing. It's everything combined.

Yeah, and we really see that in this in

this scene. We meet Josh at the zoo with

his mom Rose and her friend Hannah

and so there's Josh and then there's

cute Arnold in please like me.

So romantic.

Why did you choose this particular

scene?

Oh,

I like it very much that it's in a zoo.

It's kind of it's part of nature.

Um,

Wait, a zoo is part of nature? No, I

mean I I mean that what's happening

between them Yeah, okay. It's it's

natural. It's part of nature like the

meerkats and like this dolphin or

whatever

them getting kissing you mean? Yeah,

they're getting together, the romance

and we talked about you know, our deep

biological identity and you know, you

have all these rituals and you have

national rituals and religious rituals

and these rituals they are very shallow.

They go back you know, like 2,000 years,

5,000 years like I think about my bar

mitzvah. So people had for like 3,000

years top.

Now romance and your first kiss and like

having this click with somebody, this is

a biological drama, a biological ritual

which goes back tens of millions of

years.

And it's such a deep thing and it's like

your entire body is like some new button

is is being pressed. And

it's and then it connects everything we

talked about in about the previous

clips.

Like I came out as as gay when I was

almost 21.

Now Samantha, the AI from Her, she could

tell me that I was gay when I was I

don't know, 13 or 14. It should have

been written on my forehead but people

don't know themselves well. So I didn't

know.

I I I I still it's still one of the kind

of foundational insights I have about

human beings remembering myself at 15

that it should have been absolutely

obvious. Cuz you think coming out at age

21 is is quite late and I because I read

that you regretted coming out. It's not

so much about whether it's late or it's

I'm trying to how

how did I miss it? I think I'm a

intelligent person and you know, it was

So it was not that you stayed in the

closet for other people but you stayed

in the closet for yourself. You were

hiding from yourself.

Yes, and this ability of the mind not to

know something so deep, so important,

and again should have been so obvious.

This it's it's it's really mind-boggling

that we can do these things. And it also

connects to these stories that the

fictional stories, I mean, why does it

happen? So, one of the most basic

explanations is because, you know,

again, growing up in Israel in the

1980s, People would ask you when you

were going to get a girlfriend. Uh of

course, you almost you never hear about

gay people. If you hear anything, it's

always terrible things.

Like it's against nature, or it's

against God. Oh, and that's why you

found the zoo and the nature thing

important. Exactly. And then it take a

very long time to realize, "No, it's not

true. It's just a story that some people

invented 2,000 years ago."

Yeah, cuz basically what everything

humans do is nature.

Exactly. I mean, you can't break the

whole thing about homosexuality being

unnatural, it's a misunderstanding of

what nature means. You can never do

something unnatural. But it's just also

the stupid argument that people who hate

homosexuals in the first place use. It's

not a real They don't really think that

it's unnatural.

No, I mean, you have all these rabbis in

in in Israel that would go around and

say, "No, this is It's not just the

Bible, it's nature."

And um

I believed it to to some extent for many

years. And to understand that what

nature actually is, you cannot break the

laws of nature. The laws of nature are

not like the laws of a country that the

government has a rule that you can't

drive more than 90 km/h.

And I tried anyway. You drive 120, a

police officer stops you and gives you a

ticket. This is not how nature works.

That there is a rule against moving

faster than the speed of light, you do

it anyway, it's unnatural, so a galactic

police officer comes along and gives you

a ticket. No. And it doesn't work like

that with sex and romance.

If homosexuality was against nature, it

just couldn't exist. You know, things

against nature are for example driving

faster than the speed of light. You

don't need human rules against them,

they just can't happen.

It's impossible.

Yeah. So

go back cuz I love the way you explained

the feeling of getting your first kiss

as like a button being pressed and then

you feel it all all over. When when

do you do you want to tell me about your

first kiss?

such a good No, it wasn't a bad

experience, but it wasn't such a good

experience either.

it a bad kiss or what was Um

it was kind of an anticlimax. You hear

about it so much and again it's part of

the kind of the damage of being in the

closet for so long that you kind of you

you don't allow things to take the more

natural course.

And then, you know, all these characters

in the head that we saw in in in in

Riley, they get completely messed up.

And they are kind of tied in knots

within knots. It takes you years to

untangle these knots. So, what should

have been you know, a kind of playful

and wonderful and natural

uh uh ritual

or biological drama Mhm. gets this

complicated social, cultural, religious

toxic mix.

There was too much pressure. You you

yourself put too much pressure on it.

Yeah, too much conflicting expectations

and too much pressure and

misunderstandings and

uh you know, there was

after I came out, so there was a time

that I felt that finally I've solved it.

Like there was this one piece of the

puzzle in I don't understand life and

here I have this missing piece of the

puzzle. Yeah, but when did you realize

how did you realize you were gay at 21?

Was it

It was a process of a few a few months

and and and the movie also played a I

remember actually this one movie, maybe

I should have shown this.

It was 1997 and there was this film

festival in Jerusalem and there was this

movie called

a Canadian movie, French Lilies.

And it was kind of some had some had

very explicit gay scenes and I remember

walking out of the cinema and saying,

"I'm gay."

Let's Let's the kind of I mean it it

wasn't again we we this is mythology. We

embellish things when when we tell them

to make them simpler. It was a process

of of of several months.

But it's also a beautiful example of

what art can do to you, right?

Yeah, but it was a moment of of

crystallization.

But then it kind of you know, it was a

false enlightenment. Like I had a

feeling for some time that that's it. I

I had this whole life, this feeling that

I don't understand life and the social

system and what's going on and because I

missed this critical piece and now I

have it.

of life.

And yes. You said you cracked the puzzle

of your life of yourself.

Yes, and you know, everybody everybody

already did it because they are straight

and and they had it easy and now I I

finally cracked it. That's it. And it

took like one or two years to realize

now it it it was an important thing. It

was very good

but it's it it it's it didn't solve

everything.

There's still pieces missing.

There's still a lot of pieces missing.

Life is still messy.

And you mentioned the algorithm that

that an algorithm could have have told

you sooner that in fact you were gay.

Yeah, by You know, just watching what

happens to my eyes when I walk on the

beach in Haifa and there is a sexy guy

and a sexy girl walking hand in hand in

swimsuits. Where do my eyes go? I mean,

should have been very simple for an AI

to figure it out. But is that for you

a frightening future? Is it a positive

thing? Cuz I mean

It depends what we do with it. But, it

also depends where you live, right?

live in Iran

Yeah, then you're Yes, that's a

very problematic thing that you know

that they know about you even before you

do.

And that's the thing about hacking

humans. Throughout history

dictatorial governments always wanted to

hack human beings to be able to know

what you think, what you feel. You know,

Stalin gives a speech, everybody smiles

and claps their hands, but Stalin wants

to know what you really think.

they didn't have the technology

have the technology. Now, the technology

is there.

And it's not just it's it's all the

time. You know, again, in the Soviet

Union

the KGB couldn't follow you 24 hours a

day. They didn't have enough agents. And

even if they they had an agent on you,

the agent would write paper reports that

somebody a human being needs to read.

It's impossible to analyze all that.

Now, with AI and smartphones and sensors

and cameras and microphones and all

that, you can literally follow everybody

24 hours a day. You don't need human

agents. We carry the agent in our pocket

or whatever.

And you don't need human analysts to go

over the data. You have AI.

So, it's for the first time in history

it's possible to follow everybody all

the time and follow even what's

happening under the skin and to hack

humans.

Now, it's And to find out their

preferences, their secret loves, their

everything what you like to get to know

you better than you know yourself.

Yeah. But, ironically, science did help

you find love, right? Cuz I read that

you you met your husband through a

dating site. That's also an algorithm.

I I'm I'm not against technology. I

think that every technology can be used

for good or for bad. A knife can be used

to kill a person or to save a person's

life if you're a surgeon on an operating

table or to chop salad. Same goes for

for or

bat that you play baseball with. Yeah.

Exactly. So, again, I met my husband

online. I mean

who who who decided that he actually was

the one? Was that you or was that the

algorithm or was the algorithm in your

head?

it was me. I think that dating apps,

they have a misunderstanding. Most

dating apps, a misunderstanding of of of

humans.

Mm, too many dating apps

uh understood humans as consumers of

mates.

Like, you have the perfect mate out

there and the dating app just needs to

give you you you you you're a consumer

and this is a product you consume. So,

they bring you the product and you try

this one is is is is too dull and this

one is like this and give me another

product.

And this is an entire misconception.

Because humans are not consumers of

mates, they are producers of

relationships. The difficult part starts

after you meet the person. It's not

about meeting Mr. Right, it's about

doing the hard work of actually creating

a relationship, which is something an

app cannot do for you. The hard work you

have to do yourself is what you're

saying. Yeah. Yes. It's also funny how

you're avoiding the term soulmate in

this case cuz there's no such thing in

your world, right? Yeah, so, you know, I

mean, we need an app

to

help us create better relationships.

Because, you know, we need to change

ourselves. There is no Mr. Right, there

is no perfect person, but somebody who

is good enough and then to start the

real difficult work of building the

relationship.

There is no Mr. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And

again, it's it's it's it's something

very basic about

how technology treats us, whether it

kind of constricts us or whether it

gives us opportunities. I I watched

another interview with you where you

told that you I know you don't have

children and I heard you say in an

interview that you're you and your

husband are not planning to to have any.

Me, since ever since I was a young girl,

I always felt a calling deep from within

that I really really really wanted to

become a dog owner.

I never wanted kids either. It's never

crossed my mind. If I didn't know that

people have kids, I would never have

thought about it myself that somebody

would would do such a thing. Yeah, and

on the other hand, now and then, not

very often, I'm like, maybe am I missing

out on the only

possible meaning I feel that I don't

understand life in the world well enough

to take responsibility

for bringing somebody into this mess and

for being kind of you know, the

salesperson of life. Maybe I mean, if it

was easier to adopt, it's almost

impossible for gay guy couple to adopt

kids in in Israel.

If it was possible to adopt, then this

is an option, but just the possibility

that I'm totally responsible for

bringing somebody into this mess, which

I don't understand. If I understood it,

then okay.

And then also being perhaps totally

responsible for their death,

this is too much for me.

It's this is also a good example of the

puzzle, the pieces missing in the puzzle

and you not knowing

yeah, what mess you're bringing them

into. Yeah. Speaking of the mess we are

bringing children into, we started off

this evening, what was it? 700,000 years

ago with a clip from Once Upon a Time

Man and um you you wanted to show

another

Yes. clip from the same series, the

children cartoon series. We're

fast-forwarding to the past century.

And how it all ends.

It's always nice to end an interview on

a positive note.

Thank you for that.

Um Do you have anything to add or are

you going to leave us with it? No, I

think that this is a warning. Mhm. It's

not a prophecy.

Uh history is not a deterministic

like all your books, right? They're not

prophecies. They're

It's not all prophecies. We don't know

how the world will look like in 2050. It

depends on our actions.

We still have agency, we have power, we

have more power than really than ever

before. We sometimes just lack the

wisdom to use it in in the right way.

Yeah, the power of our imagination.

There's hope.

But we need to, you know We need to get

our act together.

to get our act together. But it's

totally within our power

to create a really good world.

Thank you so much for this interview.

Thank you. I really enjoyed it.

hope at the end of this

evening and I will never look the same

way to Game of Thrones and the Smurfs.

Never again. Thank you so much. Thank

you.