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KATIE COURIC:
It used to be so simple.
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You were a boy
or you were a girl.
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Girls wore pink, boys wore blue.
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Girls played with dolls,
boys played with trucks.
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Girls played house,
boys played sports.
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But that was then...
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and this is now.
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MAURA PFEFFERMAN: My whole life,
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I've been dressing up
like a man.
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This is me.
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WOMAN: The next battleground,
transgender rights.
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REPORTER: Gloucester
School Board has been ordered
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by a court in Virginia
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to allow Gavin Grimm to use
the same restroom as other boys.
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MAN: What happens if your baby
is born with the anatomy
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of both a boy and a girl?
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ASH CARTER: Transgender
Americans may serve openly.
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REPORTER: A transgender
staff member
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now works at the White House.
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REPORTER: The question is
whether this athlete should run
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in the men's or women's race.
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SARAH MCBRIDE:
Will we be a nation
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where everyone has the freedom
to live openly and equally?
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TRACEY NORMAN:
It's good to be back,
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and it's really good to be me.
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JAMES CHARLES:
I am a new Cover Girl.
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REPORTER: Unisex baby names
are totally trending.
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Girls are getting names like
Riley, Mason, and Taylor.
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ANDY DEROIN:
My name's Andy DeRoin.
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I use they, them, their
as pronouns.
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REPORTER: DeRoin identifies
as gender non-binary,
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or neither male nor female.
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MAN: My generation says
that gender is fluid,
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and that it's more
of a spectrum.
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CAITLYN JENNER: This woman has
lived inside of me all my life.
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It's time for her to live.
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KATIE: It's all happening
so fast,
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but thanks to planes, trains,
and automobiles,
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I set out to explore
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the changing terrain
of gender today.
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What is gender
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and what determines it?
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How can someone's sex at birth,
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their anatomy,
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be different than
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their gender identity?
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And what if gender roles
are rejected entirely?
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And what about people
who don't consider themselves
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men or women?
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So many questions
as we find ourselves
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in the midst
of a Gender Revolution.
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* Shoob dooby
dooby doo wop wop *
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* Shoob dooby dooby
doo wop wop *
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I was born in 1957
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and raised in a culture that
made one thing perfectly clear.
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The world was divided
into two categories.
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Male, like my brother Johnny,
and female, like me.
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And every message in popular
culture reinforced that notion.
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MARCIA: You're prejudiced
against women drivers.
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GREG: No, I'm not. Not as long
as they stay off the roads.
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KATIE: As I grew up,
things started to change,
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and I was able to do things
my mom never dreamed of.
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* Who can turn the world on
with her smile *
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Mary Tyler Moore inspired me
to go into TV news
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even though some of the issues
Mary faced
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still haven't gone away.
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MARY TYLER MOORE:
I would like to know why
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the last associate producer
before me
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made $50 a week more than I do.
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MAN: Oh, because he was a man.
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[laughter]
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KATIE: Back then, the revolution
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was really about
changing gender roles.
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Now, it seems it's about the
whole concept of gender itself.
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TOM: Goal!
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MITCHELL: Nice shot, Tom.
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Tom used to identify as Tina.
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CAMERON: [gasps] Oh, I wish
you wouldn't have told me.
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You know how proud I am
of my gender identificadar.
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KATIE: It can be a bit confusing
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and pretty overwhelming.
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After all, Facebook now lets you
choose male, female, or custom,
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which lets you tailor your
gender profile any way you want.
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For some people,
it's too much to handle.
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MAN: I come from you're either
male or you're female.
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Have I been living in a hole?
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[laughs]
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MAN: I can't imagine that
there's 58 different ways
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to gender categorize yourself.
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WOMAN: I think perhaps there is
some sort of madness going on
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with political correctness.
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Sometimes you just want to say
what you want to say.
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KATIE: So, what's a cisgender
woman like me to do?
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By the way, cisgender means
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I identify with the gender
I was given at birth.
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*
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Thank you. Thanks a lot.
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I decided to head to
a playground in New York City
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to get some straight talk
about gender.
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I first saw Sam Killermann
giving a TEDx talk,
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and he got my attention
with his opening line.
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SAM KILLERMANN: So, I'm not gay.
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[laughter]
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KATIE: Sam has been studying
gender for more than 10 years,
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and he even wrote
a book about it.
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SAM: The reason why people
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always assume I'm gay has
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nothing to do with sexuality.
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It's all about gender.
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Gender and sexuality are
often lumped together,
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but they're two
different things.
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KATIE: Sam and I met up
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so he could give me a lesson
in Gender 101.
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Let's unpack this whole
gender conversation.
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You use a device or a character
called the genderbread man.
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SAM: Person.
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KATIE: Oh, sorry.
Oh! Sorry, sorry.
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The genderbread person!
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SAM: It's okay.
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I find it really helpful
to think about gender
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in a few different
distinct categories.
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Gender identity--
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how you define your gender
and how you see yourself.
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Gender expression--the different
ways that we present
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or perform gender
through our actions,
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our dress, and our demeanor.
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And biological sex
or anatomical sex.
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The physical characteristics
that make up our body
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that in many people's minds
equal gender, but don't.
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KATIE: So, gender expression
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is the way you present yourself
to the world.
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So, you could be talking
about the way you dress.
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SAM: Yeah.
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KATIE: The way you'd comb
your hair or...
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SAM: Or don't.
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KATIE: Or use product?
SAM: Yeah.
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KATIE: So, everything kind of
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as it relates to
the outside world, right?
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SAM: Yeah, yeah, that, I mean,
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that's a perfect way
of thinking about it.
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So, even just, okay.
So, this is funny.
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The way that
I'm sitting right now
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is a very feminine expression
of sitting,
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because, like, how we sit
is gendered, right?
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KATIE: Meanwhile,
I'm kind of manspreading.
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SAM: Yeah, you're manspreading.
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You're not even giving me
enough room
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to properly manspread over here.
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This is the man cross, the
masculine way of crossing a leg.
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This is just uncomfortable
for me.
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It feels like so much...
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KATIE: It feels good to me.
SAM: Yeah?
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KATIE: Yeah, it's like yoga.
Okay. Now, let's do the girl.
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SAM: Okay.
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KATIE: So, gender is different
than sexual orientation.
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SAM: Yeah.
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KATIE: But a lot of people
get them confused.
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SAM: Yeah.
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Gender is who you go to bed as.
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Sexual orientation is
who you go to bed with.
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KATIE: Got it.
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SAM: So, if you haven't heard
that one, that one's important.
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KATIE: So, let's talk about
penises and vaginas, shall we?
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[laughs]
SAM: Yeah, we might as well.
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KATIE: Let's just go
right there.
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SAM: If you haven't
already talked
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about penises and vaginas,
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we need to talk about
penises and vagina,
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because that's what everybody
always thinks,
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like, immediately,
as soon as you say gender,
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anybody who's walking by
right now
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who's hearing us say
the word gender,
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the first thing that's
popping into their mind
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is external genitalia.
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They're thinking about
penises and vaginas.
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KATIE: So, for the purpose
of our discussion,
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the bottom line is
your external genitalia
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does not dictate your gender?
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SAM: Yeah.
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KATIE: Wait a second.
Can you rewind that?
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The bottom line is
your external genitalia
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does not dictate your gender?
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SAM: Yeah.
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I mean, that, I couldn't
have said it better.
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KATIE: Actually,
for the vast majority of us,
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our external genitalia
does correlate
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with the gender we identify as,
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but that's not the case
for everyone.
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To make sense of it, let's go
back to eighth grade biology.
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FILM NARRATOR: Human growth
begins when, during mating,
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millions of sperm cells are
released inside the mother.
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This union of egg and sperm
is called fertilization.
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KATIE: So, what happens
after that?
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Well, we all start out
looking like girls.
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JOSHUA SAFER: The default
in utero is female,
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at least with regard
to external genitalia.
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But when you add testosterone,
what that really is doing is
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it's making the clitoris grow,
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and there you have a penis.
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What's also happening is that
the labia grow together.
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They actually fuse.
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KATIE: Meanwhile,
all babies have gonads,
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and if you're a girl,
those gonads turn into ovaries.
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KATIE: But if you're a boy.
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JOSHUA: Those gonads
now grow down
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into those fused labia
that were, are now a scrotum.
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KATIE: The game-changing
hormones
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that put it all in motion
are called androgens.
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Otherwise known as testosterone.
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But what happens when
something different occurs
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during that critical window,
the first trimester,
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when the genitals form?
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What if a female embryo
is exposed to testosterone
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or a male embryo
isn't exposed to enough?
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That can lead to
a baby born intersex.
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Siri, what does intersex mean?
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SIRI: Intersex means relating to
or denoting a person or animal
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that has both male and female
sex organs
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or other sexual characteristics.
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ELLEN FEDER: There are
female children born
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looking more typically male
than female.
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They have typical internal
female reproductive anatomy.
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They have a phallus, which
in women we call a clitoris,
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in males, we call a penis,
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but they have a phallus that
looks more male than female,
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and they can be born
with fused labia.
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00:10:01,534 --> 00:10:05,014
KATIE: So, if these babies are
not clearly male or female,
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what determines their gender
and who gets to decide?
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I wanted to learn more about
what it means to be intersex
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and what people born this way
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might teach all of us about
the origins of gender itself.
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So, I came to Maryland
to meet Brian Douglas,
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00:10:24,457 --> 00:10:26,487
because for nearly 50 years,
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00:10:26,526 --> 00:10:29,256
Brian was Diane.
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00:10:29,296 --> 00:10:31,456
Is it okay for me
to talk about Diane,
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because I know for, for some
people, it's really painful.
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BRIAN DOUGLAS: That's okay.
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00:10:36,970 --> 00:10:38,870
KATIE: Tell us about the
condition you were born with
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00:10:38,906 --> 00:10:40,836
and what it does.
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00:10:40,874 --> 00:10:43,944
BRIAN: The condition that I have
is known as CAH,
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00:10:43,977 --> 00:10:47,177
which is congenital adrenal
hyperplasia.
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KATIE: So, you were born,
as many intersex babies are,
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00:10:50,984 --> 00:10:54,624
with what I guess is termed
ambiguous genitalia.
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00:10:54,654 --> 00:10:57,224
BRIAN: Yes, they thought I was a
boy absolutely when I was born.
245
00:10:57,257 --> 00:11:02,827
I've had enlarged, it looked
like a penis and testicles.
246
00:11:02,863 --> 00:11:07,533
KATIE: At the same time,
you had a womb and ovaries, yes?
247
00:11:07,567 --> 00:11:08,567
BRIAN: Yes.
248
00:11:08,601 --> 00:11:09,901
While in my mother's womb,
249
00:11:09,937 --> 00:11:13,307
I was exposed to excessive
amounts of testosterone.
250
00:11:13,340 --> 00:11:17,810
KATIE: Your doctors advised your
parents that you needed surgery.
251
00:11:17,845 --> 00:11:20,045
BRIAN: Exactly.
252
00:11:20,080 --> 00:11:22,420
ELLEN: Dating from
about the 1950s,
253
00:11:22,449 --> 00:11:26,889
medicine has sought actively
to intervene
254
00:11:26,920 --> 00:11:29,560
in normalizing
the bodies of children
255
00:11:29,589 --> 00:11:31,659
born with atypical
sex anatomies.
256
00:11:31,691 --> 00:11:33,231
That determination was made
257
00:11:33,260 --> 00:11:36,830
strictly on the size
of the phallus.
258
00:11:36,864 --> 00:11:38,834
KATRINA KARKAZIS:
This is the Phall-O-Meter,
259
00:11:38,866 --> 00:11:39,926
made into a very helpful
260
00:11:39,967 --> 00:11:42,267
refrigerator magnet.
261
00:11:42,302 --> 00:11:43,272
[laughs]
262
00:11:46,606 --> 00:11:49,406
KATIE: The Phall-O-Meter
was developed in the 1990s
263
00:11:49,442 --> 00:11:51,242
by intersex activists
264
00:11:51,278 --> 00:11:55,078
to illustrate the arbitrary
nature of these surgeries.
265
00:11:55,115 --> 00:11:58,945
ELLEN: If a boy was born with
a penis smaller than one inch,
266
00:11:58,986 --> 00:12:03,756
he would be castrated and
surgically reassigned girl.
267
00:12:03,791 --> 00:12:07,031
If a female child was born
with a clitoris
268
00:12:07,060 --> 00:12:09,460
longer than one centimeter
in length,
269
00:12:09,496 --> 00:12:11,226
she would have a clitorectomy
270
00:12:11,264 --> 00:12:14,134
and she would continue
her assignment as a girl.
271
00:12:19,106 --> 00:12:22,576
KATIE: You had your first
surgery when you were how old?
272
00:12:22,609 --> 00:12:24,809
BRIAN: 11 months.
273
00:12:24,845 --> 00:12:26,875
KATIE: How were your parents
told to deal
274
00:12:26,914 --> 00:12:29,454
with this whole situation?
275
00:12:29,482 --> 00:12:31,082
BRIAN: Silence.
276
00:12:35,823 --> 00:12:36,993
Never a word was said
277
00:12:37,024 --> 00:12:39,564
over the years of treatment
that I received,
278
00:12:39,592 --> 00:12:42,902
because back in the day, the
doctors, you know, were gods,
279
00:12:42,930 --> 00:12:44,460
and you didn't question them.
280
00:12:44,497 --> 00:12:48,667
KATIE: So, you grew up
as a girl, Diane.
281
00:12:48,701 --> 00:12:49,901
BRIAN: Correct.
282
00:12:49,937 --> 00:12:51,937
KATIE: You had the appearance
of a girl,
283
00:12:51,972 --> 00:12:55,582
but all the while feeling
284
00:12:55,608 --> 00:12:57,078
that this wasn't you.
285
00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:59,410
BRIAN: It was beautiful
wrapping paper,
286
00:12:59,446 --> 00:13:02,076
but that did not match
the individual
287
00:13:02,115 --> 00:13:04,645
underneath that wrapping paper.
288
00:13:04,684 --> 00:13:06,494
And it was very frustrating,
289
00:13:06,519 --> 00:13:11,119
and it took me a little while
to, um, put the pieces together
290
00:13:11,158 --> 00:13:13,828
and to realize what was
going on with me.
291
00:13:13,861 --> 00:13:15,961
KATIE: Why did it
finally register?
292
00:13:15,996 --> 00:13:17,926
BRIAN: I noticed that
my birth certificate
293
00:13:17,965 --> 00:13:19,595
had a whiteout on it.
294
00:13:19,632 --> 00:13:20,972
The name had been whited out
295
00:13:21,001 --> 00:13:23,871
and typed a different name
over top of it.
296
00:13:23,904 --> 00:13:26,114
And I called my mother
and I said,
297
00:13:26,139 --> 00:13:28,779
'Mom, what was my name
on my birth certificate
298
00:13:28,808 --> 00:13:32,978
when I was born?' And, um...
299
00:13:33,013 --> 00:13:34,453
KATIE: How old were you?
300
00:13:34,481 --> 00:13:36,021
BRIAN: Early 30s.
301
00:13:36,049 --> 00:13:41,289
And, um, she started to cry, and
I said, 'Mom, I love you dearly,
302
00:13:41,321 --> 00:13:44,661
but I have the right to know,'
and she told me.
303
00:13:44,691 --> 00:13:45,891
KATIE: She said it?
BRIAN: Yes.
304
00:13:45,926 --> 00:13:48,526
KATIE: It was Brian?
BRIAN: Correct.
305
00:13:48,561 --> 00:13:54,801
*
306
00:13:54,834 --> 00:13:56,674
KATIE: After spending
most of his life
307
00:13:56,703 --> 00:13:58,243
trying to live as a woman,
308
00:13:58,271 --> 00:14:04,011
Brian decided to affirm
his gender identity as a man.
309
00:14:04,044 --> 00:14:05,854
Did you start taking
testosterone?
310
00:14:05,879 --> 00:14:07,049
BRIAN: Yes.
311
00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,820
KATIE: Have you noticed
your body changing?
312
00:14:08,848 --> 00:14:10,078
BRIAN: Oh, yeah, yeah.
313
00:14:10,117 --> 00:14:12,887
I actually have facial hair.
I shaved for you.
314
00:14:12,920 --> 00:14:14,690
KATIE: Can I feel it?
315
00:14:14,721 --> 00:14:15,921
Oh, yeah, you do.
316
00:14:15,956 --> 00:14:17,556
BRIAN: Yeah.
I shaved for you today, so.
317
00:14:17,590 --> 00:14:20,530
KATIE: Thank you. I appreciate
that. You didn't have to.
318
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:22,000
BRIAN: Okay.
319
00:14:22,029 --> 00:14:23,259
KATIE: What about
your mom and dad?
320
00:14:23,296 --> 00:14:25,396
Do they call you Brian now?
321
00:14:25,432 --> 00:14:28,102
BRIAN: They haven't gone to the
point of calling me Brian yet.
322
00:14:28,135 --> 00:14:29,595
KATIE: So, what do
they call you?
323
00:14:29,636 --> 00:14:31,696
BRIAN: They call me D.
324
00:14:31,738 --> 00:14:33,008
Yeah.
325
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:34,840
KATIE: Do you wish
they'd call you Brian?
326
00:14:34,874 --> 00:14:36,844
BRIAN: I do.
327
00:14:36,876 --> 00:14:38,506
KATIE: Do you think
they'll get there?
328
00:14:38,545 --> 00:14:39,705
BRIAN: Yes.
329
00:14:44,217 --> 00:14:45,717
KATIE:
The protocol for operating
330
00:14:45,752 --> 00:14:47,752
on intersex babies like Brian
331
00:14:47,787 --> 00:14:51,887
was pioneered in the second half
of the 20th Century
332
00:14:51,925 --> 00:14:54,685
by this guy, Dr. John Money.
333
00:14:54,727 --> 00:14:59,697
Money theorized that nurture
could actually supersede nature
334
00:14:59,732 --> 00:15:01,972
when it came to gender identity.
335
00:15:02,002 --> 00:15:04,972
And in 1966,
he found an opportunity
336
00:15:05,005 --> 00:15:09,135
to test this hypothesis
on identical twins.
337
00:15:09,176 --> 00:15:10,636
Both had been born male,
338
00:15:10,677 --> 00:15:15,377
but one had his penis destroyed
in a botched circumcision.
339
00:15:15,415 --> 00:15:17,715
ELLEN: This was the perfect
experiment for Money.
340
00:15:17,750 --> 00:15:21,250
Identical twin boys, and
if he could successfully see
341
00:15:21,288 --> 00:15:25,558
to the rearing of the one child
as a female,
342
00:15:25,592 --> 00:15:29,732
then his theory about gender
malleability would be confirmed.
343
00:15:29,762 --> 00:15:33,932
KATIE: Following Money's advice,
David Reimer was operated on,
344
00:15:33,967 --> 00:15:37,397
renamed Brenda,
and raised as a girl.
345
00:15:37,437 --> 00:15:40,107
ELLEN: For many years,
it was believed
346
00:15:40,140 --> 00:15:43,810
that the experiment
was a rousing success.
347
00:15:43,843 --> 00:15:49,183
And Money published many papers
attesting to that success.
348
00:15:50,850 --> 00:15:52,320
KATIE: But the world didn't know
349
00:15:52,352 --> 00:15:55,692
that despite trying to live
as a girl, he was miserable.
350
00:15:55,722 --> 00:15:59,262
And when his parents told him
the truth at the age of 14,
351
00:15:59,292 --> 00:16:04,762
he immediately went back
to being a boy.
352
00:16:04,797 --> 00:16:06,097
DAVID REIMER: If I could
prevent this from happening
353
00:16:06,133 --> 00:16:07,803
to somebody else, you know,
354
00:16:07,834 --> 00:16:10,944
maybe what happened to me
wouldn't be in vain.
355
00:16:10,970 --> 00:16:12,170
KATIE: For David Reimer,
356
00:16:12,205 --> 00:16:15,305
this experiment turned
into a living nightmare,
357
00:16:15,342 --> 00:16:19,452
and he took his own life
in 2004.
358
00:16:19,479 --> 00:16:22,679
But by then, John Money was
already considered
359
00:16:22,715 --> 00:16:24,475
a world-renowned expert,
360
00:16:24,517 --> 00:16:27,717
and the Reimer case had
established the rationale
361
00:16:27,754 --> 00:16:29,964
for operating on intersex babies
362
00:16:29,989 --> 00:16:33,629
with the theory that you could
impose a baby's gender
363
00:16:33,660 --> 00:16:37,160
simply through surgery
and parenting.
364
00:16:39,332 --> 00:16:42,472
The same year David Reimer
committed suicide,
365
00:16:42,502 --> 00:16:46,712
a landmark study of intersex
children seemed to confirm
366
00:16:46,739 --> 00:16:50,709
that gender identity is
biologically predetermined
367
00:16:50,743 --> 00:16:52,983
and cannot be manipulated.
368
00:16:53,012 --> 00:16:53,982
JOSHUA: This study is
369
00:16:54,013 --> 00:16:56,423
David Reimer on steroids.
370
00:16:56,449 --> 00:17:00,249
KATIE: 16 children were born
with a rare intersex condition.
371
00:17:00,287 --> 00:17:04,487
While they had XY chromosomes
and were genetically boys,
372
00:17:04,524 --> 00:17:07,334
they were born without penises.
373
00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:10,100
Most had vaginas
surgically constructed
374
00:17:10,130 --> 00:17:12,430
and were raised as girls.
375
00:17:12,465 --> 00:17:17,265
Despite the surgeries, four of
them insisted they were boys,
376
00:17:17,304 --> 00:17:20,514
four others initially
lived as girls.
377
00:17:20,540 --> 00:17:23,110
JOSHUA: But when those kids
learned
378
00:17:23,143 --> 00:17:25,013
what their medical histories
really were,
379
00:17:25,044 --> 00:17:27,014
they decided,
'Oh, that explains a lot.'
380
00:17:27,046 --> 00:17:28,246
I know you've given me
a girl's name,
381
00:17:28,281 --> 00:17:30,681
and dressed me in pink,
and given me a vagina,
382
00:17:30,717 --> 00:17:33,347
and are giving me
female hormones in puberty,
383
00:17:33,386 --> 00:17:35,516
but actually, I'm a boy.
384
00:17:35,555 --> 00:17:38,185
KATIE: Ultimately, nearly
two thirds of the children
385
00:17:38,225 --> 00:17:41,525
felt that regardless
of their external genitalia
386
00:17:41,561 --> 00:17:45,201
or how they were raised,
they were boys.
387
00:17:45,232 --> 00:17:47,432
What happened to
the remaining children?
388
00:17:47,467 --> 00:17:50,597
We don't know because
the study ended.
389
00:17:50,637 --> 00:17:53,207
But it was enough to convince
a lot of doctors,
390
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:55,210
including Joshua Safer.
391
00:17:55,242 --> 00:17:57,812
JOSHUA: So, this is not
just one individual
392
00:17:57,844 --> 00:18:01,314
who was treated unfortunately
by the medical establishment,
393
00:18:01,348 --> 00:18:05,048
but a whole group of kids.
394
00:18:05,084 --> 00:18:07,724
KATIE: And Brian Douglas
is living proof
395
00:18:07,754 --> 00:18:10,624
that gender identity
comes from deep within.
396
00:18:10,657 --> 00:18:13,887
Because no matter what he was
named, or how he was dressed,
397
00:18:13,926 --> 00:18:17,226
or what he may have looked like
anatomically,
398
00:18:17,264 --> 00:18:20,634
Brian Douglas always
believed he was a boy.
399
00:18:20,667 --> 00:18:23,637
And in 2008, he wrote a letter
to the doctors
400
00:18:23,670 --> 00:18:26,570
who had chosen
his gender for him.
401
00:18:26,606 --> 00:18:30,936
BRIAN: I write this letter
to attempt to truly communicate
402
00:18:30,977 --> 00:18:35,977
and express the shame,
humiliation, and suffering
403
00:18:36,015 --> 00:18:40,985
I have experienced as a result
of medical practices performed
404
00:18:41,020 --> 00:18:44,390
because I was born intersex.
405
00:18:50,530 --> 00:18:52,430
KATIE: You did get an apology.
406
00:18:52,465 --> 00:18:54,465
BRIAN: I did, I got
two letters of apology.
407
00:18:54,501 --> 00:18:56,501
KATIE: Were you surprised?
408
00:18:56,536 --> 00:18:58,806
BRIAN: I was.
I was very shocked, actually.
409
00:18:58,838 --> 00:19:02,478
That's basically unheard of
for a doctor to do that.
410
00:19:02,509 --> 00:19:03,679
KATIE: What would you say
to doctors
411
00:19:03,710 --> 00:19:06,480
who are still performing
these surgeries?
412
00:19:06,513 --> 00:19:07,853
BRIAN: Your days are numbered
413
00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:14,790
as far as this being
the acceptable and humane way
414
00:19:14,821 --> 00:19:16,321
to practice on children.
415
00:19:16,356 --> 00:19:19,786
And so, I wish that soon
that the procedures
416
00:19:19,826 --> 00:19:24,956
that were done on me, they will
become few and far between.
417
00:19:24,997 --> 00:19:28,667
And that's my desire.
418
00:19:28,701 --> 00:19:29,741
STEPHANIE LOHMAN:
What I thought was
419
00:19:29,769 --> 00:19:31,369
why aren't they giving me
the baby?
420
00:19:31,404 --> 00:19:33,574
KATIE: Rosie was born intersex.
421
00:19:33,606 --> 00:19:35,706
STEPHANIE: And the doctor said
that she would need surgery.
422
00:19:35,742 --> 00:19:39,152
KATIE: Why are doctors still
performing these surgeries?
423
00:19:39,178 --> 00:19:41,708
One out of ten kids
feeling forced
424
00:19:41,748 --> 00:19:43,748
into the wrong gender identity,
that's...
425
00:19:43,783 --> 00:19:45,893
MAN: Is bad.
KATIE: That's a high number.
426
00:19:51,258 --> 00:19:53,928
KATIE: How many babies
are born intersex?
427
00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:55,760
Well, no one knows for sure,
428
00:19:55,795 --> 00:20:00,925
but experts say it's one
in every 1,500 to 2,000 births.
429
00:20:00,967 --> 00:20:02,397
GEORGIANN DAVIS: And I know
thousands of people
430
00:20:02,435 --> 00:20:04,665
all around the world
who are intersex.
431
00:20:04,704 --> 00:20:07,244
So, to me, the real issue is not
how common it is,
432
00:20:07,274 --> 00:20:09,714
but the way in which
society views intersex.
433
00:20:09,742 --> 00:20:12,912
KATIE: And those views
are starting to change.
434
00:20:17,049 --> 00:20:18,749
How old are you?
435
00:20:18,785 --> 00:20:19,845
Four years old?
436
00:20:19,886 --> 00:20:21,546
Today, the Lohmans
are celebrating
437
00:20:21,588 --> 00:20:24,118
their daughter Rosie's birthday.
438
00:20:24,156 --> 00:20:26,786
Oh, nice, what do you think?
439
00:20:26,826 --> 00:20:28,796
We hear you're
a big baseball fan.
440
00:20:28,828 --> 00:20:31,698
I'm a fan of
the New York Yankees.
441
00:20:31,731 --> 00:20:32,871
ROSIE: Boo!
442
00:20:32,899 --> 00:20:33,999
[laughter]
443
00:20:36,836 --> 00:20:39,706
KATIE: Rosie's dad, Eric,
is a media studies professor
444
00:20:39,739 --> 00:20:41,809
at the University of Wisconsin.
445
00:20:41,841 --> 00:20:45,141
Her mom, Stephanie,
is a registered nurse.
446
00:20:45,177 --> 00:20:46,207
ERIC: Nice.
447
00:20:46,245 --> 00:20:47,705
STEPHANIE: Wow, good job.
448
00:20:47,747 --> 00:20:51,477
KATIE: Tell me about
the day Rosie was born.
449
00:20:51,518 --> 00:20:55,718
STEPHANIE: It was a perfectly
normal pregnancy.
450
00:20:55,755 --> 00:20:59,555
I had many ultrasounds,
and they said it's a girl,
451
00:20:59,592 --> 00:21:01,132
so then we had Rosie,
452
00:21:01,160 --> 00:21:04,800
and it was, you know, just like
any other birthing experience.
453
00:21:04,831 --> 00:21:06,671
ERIC: So, when Rosie
was delivered,
454
00:21:06,699 --> 00:21:09,469
they showed Rosie to Steph,
and she smacked me
455
00:21:09,502 --> 00:21:10,772
and said that she told me
456
00:21:10,803 --> 00:21:12,843
that these ultrasounds
can be wrong, right?
457
00:21:12,872 --> 00:21:14,342
When she looked at Rosie
for the first time,
458
00:21:14,374 --> 00:21:16,084
she thought it was a boy.
459
00:21:16,108 --> 00:21:17,778
And so...
460
00:21:17,810 --> 00:21:19,580
You did smack me, I remember.
461
00:21:19,612 --> 00:21:25,082
So, I looked around the room and
I saw what looked to be panic.
462
00:21:25,117 --> 00:21:26,147
STEPHANIE: What I thought was
463
00:21:26,185 --> 00:21:27,745
why aren't they giving me
the baby?
464
00:21:27,787 --> 00:21:29,917
You know, right, like,
they usually give you the baby
465
00:21:29,956 --> 00:21:31,486
right away and...
466
00:21:31,524 --> 00:21:34,694
ERIC: It went from very exciting
to sort of very scary quickly.
467
00:21:34,727 --> 00:21:35,757
KATIE: And very confusing.
468
00:21:35,795 --> 00:21:36,755
ERIC: Very confusing
very quickly.
469
00:21:36,796 --> 00:21:39,326
STEPHANIE: Yeah, very confusing.
470
00:21:39,366 --> 00:21:40,826
And then the doctor came over,
471
00:21:40,867 --> 00:21:43,937
it was very hard for the doctor
to look at me and tell me,
472
00:21:43,970 --> 00:21:47,210
he said, 'Well, sometimes babies
are not quite a girl
473
00:21:47,239 --> 00:21:48,679
and not quite a boy.'
474
00:21:48,708 --> 00:21:53,948
And he said, 'The baby has
this condition called CAH.'
475
00:21:53,980 --> 00:21:57,850
KATIE: Like Brian Douglas,
Rosie was born with CAH,
476
00:21:57,884 --> 00:22:01,354
a serious medical condition that
can cause a baby
477
00:22:01,388 --> 00:22:04,658
to be born intersex.
478
00:22:04,691 --> 00:22:07,831
STEPHANIE: The doc said that
she would need surgery
479
00:22:07,860 --> 00:22:09,900
within six months.
480
00:22:09,929 --> 00:22:11,399
KATIE: What did you say?
481
00:22:11,431 --> 00:22:15,031
ERIC: I was angry, I mean,
I turned hostile very quickly,
482
00:22:15,067 --> 00:22:16,867
you know, this is
a cosmetic procedure.
483
00:22:16,903 --> 00:22:19,213
What he's describing and
what he did describe to us
484
00:22:19,238 --> 00:22:21,808
was a cosmetic, you know,
procedure.
485
00:22:21,841 --> 00:22:25,341
Her body functions normally,
so to make any changes to it
486
00:22:25,378 --> 00:22:27,878
are by definition cosmetic.
487
00:22:27,914 --> 00:22:30,854
GEORGIANN: No one should be able
to sort of dictate
488
00:22:30,883 --> 00:22:35,493
or tell a child
or consent to a procedure
489
00:22:35,522 --> 00:22:38,192
that, on a kid's body,
that's irreversible
490
00:22:38,224 --> 00:22:39,934
and medically unnecessary.
491
00:22:39,959 --> 00:22:42,599
ERIC: She might never ever want
to have a surgery
492
00:22:42,629 --> 00:22:44,659
that changes the way
that she looks.
493
00:22:44,697 --> 00:22:45,767
I wouldn't be able to justify
494
00:22:45,798 --> 00:22:47,398
saying we made this choice
for you
495
00:22:47,434 --> 00:22:49,704
and I hope it was the right one.
496
00:22:49,736 --> 00:22:52,506
KATIE: So, why are doctors
still performing surgeries
497
00:22:52,539 --> 00:22:55,109
on intersex babies like Rosie?
498
00:22:55,141 --> 00:22:58,781
We asked Rosie's pediatric
urologist that question.
499
00:22:58,811 --> 00:23:01,451
He disputes the Lohmans' version
of events
500
00:23:01,481 --> 00:23:05,221
and says not operating
was presented as an option,
501
00:23:05,251 --> 00:23:08,391
and said he's sorry if they got
the wrong impression.
502
00:23:08,421 --> 00:23:11,461
He also says if
it had been his child,
503
00:23:11,491 --> 00:23:13,791
he would've likely
opted for surgery.
504
00:23:13,826 --> 00:23:14,856
SUMIT DAVE: One of the things
we know
505
00:23:14,894 --> 00:23:16,864
with congenital
adrenal hyperplasia
506
00:23:16,896 --> 00:23:18,626
is that the majority of them,
507
00:23:18,665 --> 00:23:22,795
90% to 95% of them, would
identify themselves as females.
508
00:23:22,835 --> 00:23:24,965
The trouble really lies
in that five, ten
509
00:23:25,004 --> 00:23:28,314
who do not identify as a female,
and you operate on them,
510
00:23:28,340 --> 00:23:30,140
and you didn't give them
the chance
511
00:23:30,176 --> 00:23:32,646
to express that gender identity.
512
00:23:32,679 --> 00:23:36,319
And for that, it's, for that
group of people, I agree,
513
00:23:36,348 --> 00:23:38,718
it's a complete,
you know, disaster.
514
00:23:38,751 --> 00:23:43,721
KATIE: One out of ten kids
feeling that they were forced
515
00:23:43,756 --> 00:23:46,886
into the wrong gender identity,
that's...
516
00:23:46,926 --> 00:23:47,726
SUMIT: Is bad.
517
00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:49,060
KATIE: That's a high number.
518
00:23:49,095 --> 00:23:50,895
SUMIT: Yeah, it is,
and it could be even higher.
519
00:23:50,930 --> 00:23:52,500
KATIE: What percentage
of these kids
520
00:23:52,532 --> 00:23:55,272
are currently being operated on?
521
00:23:55,301 --> 00:23:58,671
SUMIT: I can't give you,
give you an exact number,
522
00:23:58,705 --> 00:24:00,105
but if you look at the data,
523
00:24:00,139 --> 00:24:05,679
about 75% to 85% of the parents
would decide on surgery.
524
00:24:05,712 --> 00:24:06,682
KATIE: But I guess
525
00:24:06,713 --> 00:24:07,853
some would argue,
526
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:10,150
isn't that the child's decision?
527
00:24:10,182 --> 00:24:11,522
SUMIT: Yes, it is.
528
00:24:11,551 --> 00:24:13,591
But, you know, as parents,
529
00:24:13,620 --> 00:24:15,790
we take a lot of decisions
for our children.
530
00:24:15,822 --> 00:24:17,822
And that's not just
for medical reasons,
531
00:24:17,857 --> 00:24:20,587
we do that for everything.
532
00:24:20,627 --> 00:24:23,757
KATIE: Some doctors, and
I imagine some parents, feel
533
00:24:23,796 --> 00:24:28,326
it's just less traumatic
to grow up as male or female
534
00:24:28,367 --> 00:24:30,367
in this binary world
we're living in.
535
00:24:30,402 --> 00:24:31,442
GEORGIANN: Mm-hmm.
536
00:24:31,470 --> 00:24:32,840
KATIE: Do they have a point?
537
00:24:32,872 --> 00:24:35,682
GEORGIANN: Well, I think the,
it's a great question,
538
00:24:35,708 --> 00:24:36,838
but I think what
we can think about it
539
00:24:36,876 --> 00:24:38,706
is that these are
human rights violations
540
00:24:38,745 --> 00:24:40,375
on intersex kids' bodies.
541
00:24:40,412 --> 00:24:43,822
And kids, I feel,
should have their right
542
00:24:43,850 --> 00:24:47,150
to make their own decisions
about their own bodies.
543
00:24:50,422 --> 00:24:52,962
KATIE: What if one day
Rosie says to you,
544
00:24:52,992 --> 00:24:57,902
'I can't believe you didn't
have the surgery
545
00:24:57,930 --> 00:25:01,570
when I was a little baby?'
546
00:25:01,601 --> 00:25:04,001
ERIC: Yeah, that is a concern.
547
00:25:04,036 --> 00:25:06,506
STEPHANIE: I'd rather deal with
the fallout of an adolescent
548
00:25:06,539 --> 00:25:09,039
saying, 'Why, why didn't
you do this sooner?'
549
00:25:09,075 --> 00:25:11,135
And I'll say, 'Well, I wanted
you to have a choice.'
550
00:25:11,177 --> 00:25:14,477
Than to have a teenager,
an adolescent saying,
551
00:25:14,513 --> 00:25:18,753
'Why did you do that to me?
I never would've wanted that.'
552
00:25:18,785 --> 00:25:20,845
KATIE: For now, the Lohmans
are keeping an open mind
553
00:25:20,887 --> 00:25:24,217
in case Rosie decides to have
surgery when she's older.
554
00:25:24,256 --> 00:25:28,226
They say they just want to do
what's right for their child.
555
00:25:28,260 --> 00:25:31,230
And that's exactly what
the Ford family is doing
556
00:25:31,263 --> 00:25:33,773
with their daughter as well.
557
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:35,270
I visited them in their home
558
00:25:35,301 --> 00:25:38,341
in Northeast Washington, DC.
559
00:25:38,370 --> 00:25:40,870
Vanessa and JR have two kids.
560
00:25:40,907 --> 00:25:44,737
Ellie is five and Ronnie is six.
561
00:25:44,777 --> 00:25:47,707
Both born male,
but at the age of four,
562
00:25:47,747 --> 00:25:52,787
their youngest son told them
she was a girl.
563
00:25:52,819 --> 00:25:55,759
Hey, Siri, what does
transgender mean?
564
00:25:55,788 --> 00:25:57,558
SIRI: Transgender means
565
00:25:57,590 --> 00:25:59,290
denoting or relating to a person
566
00:25:59,325 --> 00:26:00,785
whose sense of personal identity
567
00:26:00,827 --> 00:26:02,087
does not correspond with
568
00:26:02,128 --> 00:26:03,128
the gender assigned
569
00:26:03,162 --> 00:26:04,732
to them at birth.
570
00:26:04,764 --> 00:26:06,734
KATIE: I'm gonna help you guys.
What are we making?
571
00:26:06,766 --> 00:26:08,936
JR FORD: So, we're gonna
make a feta salad.
572
00:26:08,968 --> 00:26:10,368
KATIE: The day I visited,
573
00:26:10,402 --> 00:26:12,972
they were getting ready to host
a neighborhood barbecue.
574
00:26:13,005 --> 00:26:17,135
So, tell me about when
Ellie became Ellie.
575
00:26:17,176 --> 00:26:19,046
JR: So, when she was
in preschool,
576
00:26:19,078 --> 00:26:23,578
her and her brother would
dress up in costumes and dresses
577
00:26:23,616 --> 00:26:24,976
and whatever they wanted.
578
00:26:25,017 --> 00:26:26,887
VANESSA FORD: I mean, so many
little boys did that,
579
00:26:26,919 --> 00:26:28,889
they play, they play princesses.
580
00:26:28,921 --> 00:26:30,791
But by the time Ronnie was four,
581
00:26:30,823 --> 00:26:33,493
that was gone, like,
that wasn't part of who he was.
582
00:26:33,525 --> 00:26:34,825
KATIE: So, with Ronnie
it was a phase?
583
00:26:34,861 --> 00:26:36,661
VANESSA: Yeah,
with Ronnie it was a phase.
584
00:26:36,696 --> 00:26:38,766
And with Ellie,
we had a different kid
585
00:26:38,798 --> 00:26:40,568
when that dress was on.
586
00:26:40,599 --> 00:26:42,129
We have pictures of her
in snow gear,
587
00:26:42,168 --> 00:26:45,838
and there's this dress
over all of the snow gear.
588
00:26:45,872 --> 00:26:50,742
And on her fourth birthday,
we had this big birthday party,
589
00:26:50,777 --> 00:26:52,847
and she stopped
and she turned to me,
590
00:26:52,879 --> 00:26:55,679
she's like, 'Mom, I'm not a boy,
591
00:26:55,715 --> 00:26:57,275
I'm a girl in my heart
and my brain.'
592
00:26:59,886 --> 00:27:03,286
KATIE: So, when Ellie,
who was then your son...
593
00:27:03,322 --> 00:27:04,362
VANESSA: Right.
594
00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:05,590
KATIE: Said that to you,
595
00:27:05,624 --> 00:27:07,694
'I'm a girl in my heart
and in my brain.'
596
00:27:07,727 --> 00:27:09,257
VANESSA: Yeah.
597
00:27:09,295 --> 00:27:13,765
KATIE: I mean, was that, was
that a little scary at first?
598
00:27:13,800 --> 00:27:15,870
VANESSA: Yes.
599
00:27:15,902 --> 00:27:19,712
Initially, I thought how could
this child know that,
600
00:27:19,739 --> 00:27:21,169
what does that mean?
601
00:27:21,207 --> 00:27:23,807
JEAN MALPAS: When
a four-year-old cisgender child
602
00:27:23,843 --> 00:27:26,713
tells you, 'I'm a little girl.'
603
00:27:26,746 --> 00:27:30,716
Do you say,
'Well, I don't know yet,
604
00:27:30,750 --> 00:27:32,120
let's see, let's take some time,
605
00:27:32,151 --> 00:27:35,861
let's wait until you're 15 or 18
and we'll find out.'
606
00:27:35,888 --> 00:27:36,988
When we're thinking about
607
00:27:37,023 --> 00:27:39,033
would kids change their mind,
608
00:27:39,058 --> 00:27:41,058
we have to really
differentiate
609
00:27:41,093 --> 00:27:43,633
the kids who are
gender explorers,
610
00:27:43,662 --> 00:27:45,872
gender expansive, gender fluid,
611
00:27:45,898 --> 00:27:47,528
who after adolescence
612
00:27:47,566 --> 00:27:49,566
will not want to transition.
613
00:27:49,601 --> 00:27:51,901
What we know with kids who are
614
00:27:51,938 --> 00:27:53,138
persistent, consistent,
615
00:27:53,172 --> 00:27:53,972
and insistent
616
00:27:54,006 --> 00:27:55,406
from a very young age
617
00:27:55,441 --> 00:27:57,211
is that almost none of them
618
00:27:57,243 --> 00:27:58,753
change their mind.
619
00:27:58,778 --> 00:28:00,748
KATIE: So, how do young kids
like Ellie
620
00:28:00,780 --> 00:28:03,720
know with such certainty
who they are?
621
00:28:03,750 --> 00:28:04,920
Perhaps it's because
622
00:28:04,951 --> 00:28:08,051
that's what their brains
may be telling them.
623
00:28:08,087 --> 00:28:10,257
Once again, scientists suspect
624
00:28:10,289 --> 00:28:12,889
the big T, testosterone,
625
00:28:12,925 --> 00:28:14,185
is playing a role.
626
00:28:14,226 --> 00:28:16,426
In the second and third
trimesters,
627
00:28:16,462 --> 00:28:18,562
a baby's brain grows rapidly.
628
00:28:18,597 --> 00:28:21,497
Higher than normal levels
of testosterone in a girl
629
00:28:21,533 --> 00:28:27,213
during this time, and her brain
maybe wired to think she's a he.
630
00:28:27,239 --> 00:28:30,509
Lower than normal levels
of testosterone in a boy,
631
00:28:30,542 --> 00:28:34,752
and his brain maybe wired
to feel like a she,
632
00:28:34,781 --> 00:28:36,751
just like Ellie.
633
00:28:36,783 --> 00:28:38,793
Some people said, you know,
634
00:28:38,818 --> 00:28:41,218
the parents' job is
to guide their child,
635
00:28:41,253 --> 00:28:46,533
and that a child basically
in essence isn't old enough
636
00:28:46,558 --> 00:28:49,928
to make this kind of choice.
637
00:28:49,962 --> 00:28:51,802
Did you have
a medical professional
638
00:28:51,831 --> 00:28:53,771
kind of guiding you
through this?
639
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:56,300
Because I know as a parent,
640
00:28:56,335 --> 00:28:59,465
I mean, it's such
a massive decision.
641
00:28:59,505 --> 00:29:00,635
VANESSA: Yeah.
642
00:29:00,672 --> 00:29:03,212
JR: So, Vanessa found that
there's a clinic
643
00:29:03,242 --> 00:29:05,712
within the Children's National
Medical Center
644
00:29:05,744 --> 00:29:07,384
that we sought out first.
645
00:29:07,413 --> 00:29:10,123
They brought Vanessa, myself,
and Ellie in.
646
00:29:10,149 --> 00:29:12,049
So, that was our initial
kind of intake
647
00:29:12,084 --> 00:29:15,094
into, you know, what does
this mean for Ellie,
648
00:29:15,121 --> 00:29:17,391
what does this mean for us?
649
00:29:17,423 --> 00:29:20,563
VANESSA: They asked about how
she depicts herself in drawings,
650
00:29:20,592 --> 00:29:21,962
what she calls herself,
651
00:29:21,994 --> 00:29:23,134
and then they bring you in
652
00:29:23,162 --> 00:29:24,802
for about a two-hour conference.
653
00:29:24,831 --> 00:29:26,471
They met with Ellie on her own,
654
00:29:26,498 --> 00:29:27,798
and then they met with us,
655
00:29:27,834 --> 00:29:30,774
and they've said,
'You're doing the right thing,
656
00:29:30,803 --> 00:29:33,013
your kid is who
she says she is.'
657
00:29:33,039 --> 00:29:35,509
And then, of course,
we got Ellie a therapist,
658
00:29:35,541 --> 00:29:38,741
and she's a PhD, she does
assessment, she does diagnoses,
659
00:29:38,777 --> 00:29:40,077
she does all of that.
660
00:29:40,112 --> 00:29:42,952
And she was another
affirming person who said,
661
00:29:42,982 --> 00:29:44,622
'You have a trans kid.'
662
00:29:44,650 --> 00:29:45,950
KATIE: Like most families,
663
00:29:45,985 --> 00:29:49,015
they shared the news
in a thoroughly modern way.
664
00:29:49,055 --> 00:29:50,255
VANESSA: We actually have
a video of her
665
00:29:50,289 --> 00:29:52,019
that we posted on Facebook
at the time
666
00:29:52,058 --> 00:29:54,188
saying we don't know
what this path is,
667
00:29:54,226 --> 00:29:57,796
our son just really wants
girl clothes,
668
00:29:57,830 --> 00:29:58,870
and so we bought her
a whole new wardrobe,
669
00:29:58,898 --> 00:30:00,198
and we have a video
of her coming up
670
00:30:00,232 --> 00:30:02,032
and seeing the clothes
for the first time.
671
00:30:02,068 --> 00:30:03,868
Ready for the big surprise?
672
00:30:03,903 --> 00:30:04,943
ELLIE: Yeah.
673
00:30:04,971 --> 00:30:06,041
VANESSA: Look in your closet
674
00:30:06,072 --> 00:30:09,042
at all the dresses
that are hanging up.
675
00:30:09,075 --> 00:30:11,035
ELLIE: I'm gonna wear
this dress first.
676
00:30:11,077 --> 00:30:12,807
VANESSA: That's the one
you're gonna wear first?
677
00:30:12,845 --> 00:30:14,175
ELLIE: Yeah.
678
00:30:14,213 --> 00:30:18,053
KATIE: And what was the reaction
to that on Facebook?
679
00:30:18,084 --> 00:30:19,394
JR: Uh, phenomenal.
680
00:30:19,418 --> 00:30:21,518
VANESSA: Yeah.
681
00:30:21,553 --> 00:30:24,663
JR: All our family and friends
have just really been
682
00:30:24,690 --> 00:30:27,890
just loving and caring and just
have been really supportive,
683
00:30:27,927 --> 00:30:30,897
because they know us.
684
00:30:30,930 --> 00:30:32,730
They know our family.
685
00:30:32,764 --> 00:30:34,204
Um...
686
00:30:37,603 --> 00:30:39,813
And, um...
687
00:30:39,838 --> 00:30:41,568
It's just been
a really good feeling
688
00:30:41,607 --> 00:30:43,507
to know that people support us.
689
00:30:43,542 --> 00:30:44,742
We want to make sure
690
00:30:44,776 --> 00:30:47,246
that our kids are healthy,
protected, loved.
691
00:30:47,279 --> 00:30:51,649
So, any way that we could
support them, we will do it.
692
00:30:51,683 --> 00:30:53,853
KATIE: Do you want to try to put
some lipstick on me?
693
00:30:53,886 --> 00:30:54,886
ELLIE: Yeah.
694
00:30:54,921 --> 00:30:57,561
KATIE: Okay. Whoa, not too much.
695
00:30:57,589 --> 00:30:59,359
Ellie is now in kindergarten,
696
00:30:59,391 --> 00:31:03,261
where her mom and dad say
she's just one of the girls.
697
00:31:03,295 --> 00:31:07,565
And she'll be allowed to live as
a girl as long as she wants to.
698
00:31:07,599 --> 00:31:09,769
VANESSA: We've seen her,
we've seen this progression,
699
00:31:09,801 --> 00:31:12,601
and we've seen how amazing
she's become
700
00:31:12,638 --> 00:31:16,038
and confident in who she is,
and we're okay with that.
701
00:31:16,075 --> 00:31:18,435
KATIE: And they say all of this
can be undone
702
00:31:18,477 --> 00:31:23,047
if Ellie changes her mind,
which they believe is unlikely.
703
00:31:23,082 --> 00:31:25,122
JEAN: When a child transitions,
704
00:31:25,151 --> 00:31:27,451
everybody transitions
along with them.
705
00:31:27,486 --> 00:31:29,116
That means the parents,
706
00:31:29,155 --> 00:31:30,285
the classmates in school,
707
00:31:30,322 --> 00:31:31,862
the teacher, the principal,
708
00:31:31,890 --> 00:31:35,690
everybody has to understand
what's going on.
709
00:31:35,727 --> 00:31:37,797
KATIE: But for Ellie,
the real challenge will happen
710
00:31:37,829 --> 00:31:39,429
a few years down the road,
711
00:31:39,465 --> 00:31:41,725
something the Fords
know all too well.
712
00:31:41,767 --> 00:31:42,937
JR: When kids get older,
713
00:31:42,969 --> 00:31:44,799
you know, when they're going
into puberty,
714
00:31:44,836 --> 00:31:46,466
this dysphoria is heightened,
715
00:31:46,505 --> 00:31:48,765
it's increased because
all the hormones
716
00:31:48,807 --> 00:31:49,877
are starting to come in,
717
00:31:49,908 --> 00:31:53,778
and there's just
this internal battle.
718
00:31:53,812 --> 00:31:54,882
KATIE: You're 12 years old,
719
00:31:54,913 --> 00:31:56,753
so puberty is just
around the corner.
720
00:31:56,782 --> 00:31:57,782
ALLY HUDSON: Yeah.
721
00:31:57,816 --> 00:31:59,416
JEAN: Puberty is very stressful.
722
00:31:59,451 --> 00:32:01,821
The body will betray
who they are.
723
00:32:01,853 --> 00:32:03,963
And once they start
cross hormones,
724
00:32:03,990 --> 00:32:05,060
these are permanent changes.
725
00:32:05,091 --> 00:32:07,431
EJ: I'm almost six months on T.
726
00:32:07,459 --> 00:32:08,489
OLIVER: Lucky.
727
00:32:08,527 --> 00:32:10,497
I want to be six months
on T already.
728
00:32:14,366 --> 00:32:18,836
*
729
00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:22,910
KATIE: What would you do if your
daughter told you, 'I'm a boy?'
730
00:32:22,941 --> 00:32:25,811
Or your son said, 'I'm a girl?'
731
00:32:25,844 --> 00:32:27,184
And what makes someone feel
732
00:32:27,213 --> 00:32:29,823
that way in the first place?
733
00:32:29,848 --> 00:32:31,248
We know that scientists believe
734
00:32:31,283 --> 00:32:34,023
that something happens
to the trans brain
735
00:32:34,053 --> 00:32:36,923
while it's developing in utero,
736
00:32:36,955 --> 00:32:38,015
but there's also some evidence
737
00:32:38,057 --> 00:32:41,087
from human brains
examined postmortem
738
00:32:41,127 --> 00:32:45,297
that seems to show trans brains
are in fact different.
739
00:32:45,331 --> 00:32:48,271
And ground zero
is the hypothalamus,
740
00:32:48,300 --> 00:32:51,640
the tiny nerve center that
controls your heart rate,
741
00:32:51,670 --> 00:32:54,170
sleep, and metabolism.
742
00:32:54,206 --> 00:32:57,476
Scientists initially believed
that the hypothalamus
743
00:32:57,509 --> 00:33:01,809
of a gay man would resemble
that of a woman,
744
00:33:01,847 --> 00:33:04,617
but what they found
surprised them.
745
00:33:04,650 --> 00:33:08,390
JOSHUA: Down below, we have the
staining pattern of a gay man.
746
00:33:08,420 --> 00:33:09,990
The picture above is
the staining pattern
747
00:33:10,022 --> 00:33:11,022
of a straight man.
748
00:33:11,057 --> 00:33:12,657
And observe,
there is no difference
749
00:33:12,691 --> 00:33:14,831
between the gay man
and the straight man.
750
00:33:14,860 --> 00:33:17,300
However, over here
in this corner,
751
00:33:17,329 --> 00:33:20,399
we have the staining pattern
for our transgender woman,
752
00:33:20,432 --> 00:33:25,542
and observe that even though
her external body parts at birth
753
00:33:25,571 --> 00:33:27,741
may have been male,
754
00:33:27,773 --> 00:33:29,243
she has the same
staining pattern
755
00:33:29,275 --> 00:33:31,875
as the non-transgender,
as the cisgender woman.
756
00:33:31,910 --> 00:33:37,350
What it tells us is that
there are areas in the brain
757
00:33:37,383 --> 00:33:39,493
that correlate
with gender identity
758
00:33:39,518 --> 00:33:42,588
and not with
external body parts.
759
00:33:42,621 --> 00:33:46,391
KATIE: But it's not just
hormones like testosterone
760
00:33:46,425 --> 00:33:49,925
influencing how our brains
are wired.
761
00:33:49,961 --> 00:33:53,931
It may also be in our genes.
762
00:33:53,965 --> 00:33:55,925
Why do scientists think that?
763
00:33:55,967 --> 00:33:58,597
A 2012 study out of Belgium
764
00:33:58,637 --> 00:34:03,677
found that among fraternal twins
who do not share identical DNA,
765
00:34:03,709 --> 00:34:06,949
the likelihood that
if one twin is trans,
766
00:34:06,978 --> 00:34:09,678
the other will be is very low.
767
00:34:09,715 --> 00:34:15,715
But among identical twins,
the likelihood shoots up to 40%.
768
00:34:15,754 --> 00:34:16,964
What does that mean?
769
00:34:16,988 --> 00:34:18,118
STEPHEN ROSENTHAL:
Well, what that says to me
770
00:34:18,157 --> 00:34:20,357
is that your DNA is
playing a role here,
771
00:34:20,392 --> 00:34:24,632
because the identical twins
essentially share the same DNA,
772
00:34:24,663 --> 00:34:26,733
whereas
the non-identical twins don't.
773
00:34:26,765 --> 00:34:29,735
JOSHUA: We don't know if this is
one gene or eight genes
774
00:34:29,768 --> 00:34:31,038
or a group of genes
775
00:34:31,069 --> 00:34:32,599
that are affected
in slightly different ways,
776
00:34:32,638 --> 00:34:36,238
but I absolutely do believe
that we will have a day
777
00:34:36,275 --> 00:34:39,605
when you can do either
a brain scan or a blood test,
778
00:34:39,645 --> 00:34:42,445
and we will be able
to say that, yes,
779
00:34:42,481 --> 00:34:46,491
your kid has the biology
in their brain
780
00:34:46,518 --> 00:34:51,158
for the opposite
gender identity.
781
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:53,260
KATIE: After all,
according to one estimate,
782
00:34:53,292 --> 00:34:54,832
the number of people in the US
783
00:34:54,860 --> 00:34:57,060
who identify as trans has
784
00:34:57,095 --> 00:34:59,965
doubled in the last five years.
785
00:34:59,998 --> 00:35:03,668
Now, up to 1.4 million
Americans.
786
00:35:03,702 --> 00:35:05,172
JOSHUA: So some people
have the sense
787
00:35:05,204 --> 00:35:08,344
that the number of transgender
individuals is increasing,
788
00:35:08,374 --> 00:35:10,584
but of course,
if this is biology,
789
00:35:10,609 --> 00:35:12,779
then it wouldn't make any sense
that that would be true.
790
00:35:12,811 --> 00:35:16,951
Rather, what's happening is
people who are transgender
791
00:35:16,982 --> 00:35:19,292
are coming forward now more.
792
00:35:19,318 --> 00:35:20,748
KATIE: As more and more
children,
793
00:35:20,786 --> 00:35:25,356
often under the age of five,
are identifying as trans,
794
00:35:25,391 --> 00:35:29,601
some parents are left
feeling dazed and confused.
795
00:35:29,628 --> 00:35:31,758
JEAN: There's no manual
for parenting to begin with.
796
00:35:31,797 --> 00:35:36,697
But when your child comes
with a whole other territory,
797
00:35:36,735 --> 00:35:38,165
with other references,
798
00:35:38,204 --> 00:35:41,874
with other needs that you've
never had to think about,
799
00:35:41,907 --> 00:35:43,137
it is really, I think,
800
00:35:43,175 --> 00:35:44,205
shocking and disorienting,
801
00:35:44,243 --> 00:35:48,313
and where you need
a lot of help.
802
00:35:48,347 --> 00:35:50,847
KATIE: What's it like to be
one of these families?
803
00:35:50,882 --> 00:35:52,522
How do you prepare for this?
804
00:35:52,551 --> 00:35:55,221
And what kind of help
are they getting?
805
00:35:55,254 --> 00:35:56,624
That's what I was
hoping to learn
806
00:35:56,655 --> 00:35:59,015
when I went to meet Ally Hudson,
807
00:35:59,057 --> 00:36:01,457
a 12-year-old transgender girl,
808
00:36:01,493 --> 00:36:04,533
on a day when she had
another visitor as well.
809
00:36:04,563 --> 00:36:05,733
KRISTINA OLSON:
So I'm going to tell you
810
00:36:05,764 --> 00:36:07,134
about two kinds of kids,
811
00:36:07,165 --> 00:36:09,165
and I want you to decide
which one you're more like.
812
00:36:09,201 --> 00:36:10,201
Does that make sense?
813
00:36:10,236 --> 00:36:11,236
ALLY HUDSON: Yeah.
814
00:36:11,270 --> 00:36:12,540
KRISTINA: My name's
Kristina Olson,
815
00:36:12,571 --> 00:36:15,441
and I'm the director
of the TransYouth Project.
816
00:36:18,344 --> 00:36:22,754
So what we're doing is
a 20-year longitudinal study
817
00:36:22,781 --> 00:36:26,751
of hundreds of young transgender
and gender nonconforming kids,
818
00:36:26,785 --> 00:36:30,755
and we go and visit them
every about two or three years
819
00:36:30,789 --> 00:36:33,589
to assess
basic gender development.
820
00:36:33,625 --> 00:36:35,085
Would you want to be friends
with a boy
821
00:36:35,126 --> 00:36:36,426
who wears nail polish?
822
00:36:36,462 --> 00:36:37,432
ALLY: Definitely.
823
00:36:37,463 --> 00:36:38,703
KRISTINA: One of the questions
824
00:36:38,730 --> 00:36:40,070
that we're working really hard
to try to answer
825
00:36:40,098 --> 00:36:42,928
is this question that nearly
every parent asks us of.
826
00:36:42,968 --> 00:36:44,538
Is this is a phase?
827
00:36:44,570 --> 00:36:46,540
Is my child gonna
grow out of this?
828
00:36:46,572 --> 00:36:48,512
And so the way that we're
trying to answer that
829
00:36:48,540 --> 00:36:50,440
is to get a lot
of different kids
830
00:36:50,476 --> 00:36:51,936
in a lot of different situations
831
00:36:51,977 --> 00:36:54,707
and look at what their
later development looks like.
832
00:36:54,746 --> 00:36:57,776
KATIE: So, Ally, how did you
feel about being in the study?
833
00:36:57,816 --> 00:37:01,116
ALLY: I like it, because I want
to pave the way for other kids,
834
00:37:01,152 --> 00:37:06,122
to make it easier for them and
not have it as hard as I did.
835
00:37:06,157 --> 00:37:07,387
KATIE: On the surface,
836
00:37:07,426 --> 00:37:10,526
Ally seems like any other
12-year-old girl.
837
00:37:10,562 --> 00:37:14,472
She loves music, art,
and basketball.
838
00:37:14,500 --> 00:37:18,540
But she hasn't always been this
comfortable in her own body.
839
00:37:18,570 --> 00:37:20,640
She was assigned male at birth.
840
00:37:20,672 --> 00:37:24,742
But for as long as she can
remember, she felt like a girl.
841
00:37:24,776 --> 00:37:28,406
ALLY: In no way should anybody
think that this is phase.
842
00:37:28,447 --> 00:37:29,977
We've been this way
all our lives
843
00:37:30,015 --> 00:37:34,945
and that we've just now had the
voice and the guts to speak out
844
00:37:34,986 --> 00:37:36,656
and tell what we're thinking
845
00:37:36,688 --> 00:37:40,388
and not just what society
wants us to say.
846
00:37:40,426 --> 00:37:43,156
KATIE: And Cristina,
did you ever think,
847
00:37:43,194 --> 00:37:47,104
'Oh, perhaps my son is gay?'
848
00:37:47,132 --> 00:37:50,002
CRISTINA: We thought that
our child was just very in touch
849
00:37:50,035 --> 00:37:52,995
with her feminine side.
850
00:37:53,038 --> 00:37:54,268
KATIE: And might be gay?
851
00:37:54,306 --> 00:37:55,436
CRISTINA: Yeah, might be gay,
and we thought,
852
00:37:55,474 --> 00:37:57,314
'Okay, that's great.
That's no problem.'
853
00:37:57,343 --> 00:38:01,453
I remember even one time we went
to the American Girl Doll store
854
00:38:01,480 --> 00:38:02,950
with a friend of mine
855
00:38:02,981 --> 00:38:06,691
who does have a gay son
who also likes dolls.
856
00:38:06,718 --> 00:38:08,688
And Ally gets in the car
after the day
857
00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:13,490
and she says, 'Mom,
I'm not really like him.'
858
00:38:13,525 --> 00:38:16,125
She didn't know
the word gay then,
859
00:38:16,161 --> 00:38:17,861
but I knew what she was saying.
860
00:38:17,896 --> 00:38:19,026
She was letting me know,
861
00:38:19,064 --> 00:38:23,544
'Mom, yeah, this really isn't,
isn't me.'
862
00:38:23,569 --> 00:38:26,639
KATIE: I wondered, Cristina,
there are some people out there
863
00:38:26,672 --> 00:38:29,712
who I think have the attitude
as a parent,
864
00:38:29,741 --> 00:38:35,311
you tell your kids what to do,
how to behave, who to be,
865
00:38:35,347 --> 00:38:37,777
and that this tendency
to be more accepting
866
00:38:37,816 --> 00:38:41,016
of transgender children
is part and parcel
867
00:38:41,052 --> 00:38:45,222
of a overly permissive
kind of parenting style.
868
00:38:45,256 --> 00:38:46,726
CRISTINA: I do get that a lot.
869
00:38:46,758 --> 00:38:51,198
Like, you know, 'Wow, I don't
even let my child decide
870
00:38:51,229 --> 00:38:52,329
what they're gonna
have for dinner,
871
00:38:52,364 --> 00:38:55,034
and you're letting
your child decide
872
00:38:55,066 --> 00:38:57,836
that they're now going to be
another gender?'
873
00:38:57,869 --> 00:39:03,679
But what I say to them is,
'I didn't really have a choice.'
874
00:39:03,709 --> 00:39:05,639
KATIE: Something Cristina
realized
875
00:39:05,677 --> 00:39:10,747
when Ally's constant anxiety
had reached a breaking point.
876
00:39:10,782 --> 00:39:13,492
CRISTINA: And after
one panic attack,
877
00:39:13,519 --> 00:39:17,389
she said to me
878
00:39:17,423 --> 00:39:20,693
with a look of, of despair,
879
00:39:20,726 --> 00:39:24,926
she said, 'Mom, I need you
to answer one question,
880
00:39:24,963 --> 00:39:29,073
because, Mom,
I can't do this again.'
881
00:39:29,100 --> 00:39:31,570
And I said, 'What?'
882
00:39:31,603 --> 00:39:33,613
'Yeah, yeah, I just
need to know, Mom.
883
00:39:33,639 --> 00:39:35,169
What happens when I die?
884
00:39:35,206 --> 00:39:36,536
Mom, will I be a girl then?
885
00:39:36,575 --> 00:39:38,705
Will I be, will I be a girl?'
886
00:39:38,744 --> 00:39:41,384
And I said,
'Absolutely. Totally.'
887
00:39:41,413 --> 00:39:42,853
'You sure, Mom?'
888
00:39:42,881 --> 00:39:45,781
'Yeah, I'm sure.
God would never do that.
889
00:39:45,817 --> 00:39:47,347
You'll, you'll come back,
890
00:39:47,385 --> 00:39:51,685
and, and you'll, you'll come
back how you want to come back.'
891
00:39:51,723 --> 00:39:54,133
And she just sighed with relief.
892
00:39:54,159 --> 00:40:00,399
And it took that, her kind of
asking permission to die
893
00:40:00,432 --> 00:40:04,642
to get me finally that,
that next day,
894
00:40:04,670 --> 00:40:05,900
I just got on it.
895
00:40:05,937 --> 00:40:08,967
I think that I'd never
really had the strength
896
00:40:09,007 --> 00:40:11,137
to type in
'transgender children,'
897
00:40:11,176 --> 00:40:13,646
and that's what it took.
898
00:40:13,679 --> 00:40:16,309
KATIE: So you've,
you were suicidal?
899
00:40:16,347 --> 00:40:17,477
ALLY: Yes.
900
00:40:17,516 --> 00:40:18,916
KATIE: At seven and a half?
901
00:40:18,950 --> 00:40:20,550
ALLY: Mm-hmm.
902
00:40:20,586 --> 00:40:22,746
KATIE: Now, with her family
supporting her,
903
00:40:22,788 --> 00:40:25,818
Ally's dealing with
a challenging new stage.
904
00:40:25,857 --> 00:40:28,487
JEAN: The emergence of puberty
for a lot of those kids
905
00:40:28,527 --> 00:40:29,827
is very stressful.
906
00:40:29,861 --> 00:40:32,501
Like, the idea that
the body will change,
907
00:40:32,531 --> 00:40:34,171
and the body will betray,
908
00:40:34,199 --> 00:40:37,169
in a way, who they are
and who they want to be,
909
00:40:37,202 --> 00:40:39,172
really creates a lot of anxiety.
910
00:40:39,204 --> 00:40:42,744
And puberty blockers allow
the body to not masculinize
911
00:40:42,774 --> 00:40:44,814
and feminize
in a way that's unwanted.
912
00:40:44,843 --> 00:40:46,683
WOMAN: I'm starting
blockers today.
913
00:40:46,712 --> 00:40:48,682
WOMAN: Oh, my God, guys,
I'm so excited.
914
00:40:48,714 --> 00:40:52,124
WOMAN: I got my first blocker
shot at the doctor's office.
915
00:40:52,150 --> 00:40:56,690
WOMAN: It's like a big step,
it's gonna block male hormones.
916
00:40:56,722 --> 00:40:58,322
KRISTINA: Many people call them
the pause button,
917
00:40:58,356 --> 00:41:00,626
and what it does is
it pauses puberty where it is.
918
00:41:00,659 --> 00:41:02,159
WOMAN: There it is!
919
00:41:02,193 --> 00:41:04,263
KRISTINA: It allows the child
to develop a little bit more
920
00:41:04,295 --> 00:41:05,755
without going into puberty.
921
00:41:05,797 --> 00:41:07,967
It buys them a few years
of decision making,
922
00:41:07,999 --> 00:41:10,699
and then if they go off
of the puberty blocker,
923
00:41:10,736 --> 00:41:14,536
they will go just directly
into their natal sex puberty.
924
00:41:14,573 --> 00:41:15,773
KATIE:
Ally, you're 12 years old,
925
00:41:15,807 --> 00:41:17,707
so puberty is just
around the corner
926
00:41:17,743 --> 00:41:19,383
whether you want it
to be or not.
927
00:41:19,410 --> 00:41:20,380
ALLY: Yeah.
928
00:41:20,411 --> 00:41:22,011
KATIE: And you've made
a decision
929
00:41:22,047 --> 00:41:24,277
that you will go on
puberty blockers.
930
00:41:24,315 --> 00:41:25,475
ALLY: Yeah.
931
00:41:25,517 --> 00:41:27,217
KATIE: You didn't want
to grow facial hair.
932
00:41:27,252 --> 00:41:28,392
ALLY: Yeah.
KATIE: Right?
933
00:41:28,419 --> 00:41:29,619
ALLY: Yeah, definitely.
934
00:41:29,655 --> 00:41:31,315
KATIE: You didn't want
your voice to lower.
935
00:41:31,356 --> 00:41:32,816
ALLY: Yeah.
936
00:41:32,858 --> 00:41:34,958
KATIE: So the doctor told you
you would have an implant,
937
00:41:34,993 --> 00:41:36,163
is that right?
938
00:41:36,194 --> 00:41:37,834
ALLY: There's a shot,
there's an implant,
939
00:41:37,863 --> 00:41:42,503
and I chose the implant,
because it lasts for two years.
940
00:41:42,534 --> 00:41:43,844
KATIE: Is that a new area?
941
00:41:43,869 --> 00:41:44,969
CRISTINA:
Yeah, it's not like I can...
942
00:41:45,003 --> 00:41:46,373
KATIE: Does that worry you,
Cristina?
943
00:41:46,404 --> 00:41:48,544
CRISTINA: Yeah, that's why
I love a study like this,
944
00:41:48,574 --> 00:41:50,914
because I wish there was a study
that I could look at right now
945
00:41:50,942 --> 00:41:55,252
and say, 'Okay, let me see
about a 60-year-old
946
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:58,850
that at 12 years old went on
blockers and then hormones.'
947
00:41:58,884 --> 00:42:00,754
But there is no study like that.
948
00:42:00,786 --> 00:42:02,316
So it is a little scary,
949
00:42:02,353 --> 00:42:06,733
and I know that some parents
might find it hard to understand
950
00:42:06,758 --> 00:42:09,898
why I am choosing this
for my child.
951
00:42:09,928 --> 00:42:14,728
But I believe that doing nothing
could be detrimental as well.
952
00:42:14,766 --> 00:42:17,596
KATIE: So you really are kind of
a pioneer, aren't you?
953
00:42:17,636 --> 00:42:18,836
ALLY: Definitely.
954
00:42:18,870 --> 00:42:20,840
JOSHUA: Puberty blockers
are relatively safe
955
00:42:20,872 --> 00:42:22,912
and are relatively reversible.
956
00:42:22,941 --> 00:42:27,081
And in my view, we should be
using puberty blockers
957
00:42:27,112 --> 00:42:31,352
for any kid who is reporting
that he or she is trans
958
00:42:31,382 --> 00:42:33,252
as he or she is entering puberty
959
00:42:33,284 --> 00:42:36,594
until they are able to decide
what to do long term.
960
00:42:36,622 --> 00:42:39,462
KATIE: And you feel
this is definitely
961
00:42:39,490 --> 00:42:41,260
the right course of action
for you?
962
00:42:41,292 --> 00:42:42,862
ALLY: Yes, definitely.
963
00:42:42,894 --> 00:42:47,374
There is nothing that is
stopping me from being who I am.
964
00:42:47,398 --> 00:42:50,638
KATIE: So if puberty blockers
are the pause button,
965
00:42:50,669 --> 00:42:54,639
what happens when these teens
decide to hit play
966
00:42:54,673 --> 00:42:58,483
and want to make their
transition more permanent?
967
00:42:58,509 --> 00:43:00,749
That means hormones.
968
00:43:00,779 --> 00:43:02,649
This is Camp OUTdoors!,
969
00:43:02,681 --> 00:43:04,881
one of the growing number
of summer camps
970
00:43:04,916 --> 00:43:09,816
catering specifically to gay,
lesbian, and transgender teens,
971
00:43:09,855 --> 00:43:12,885
and many of them are thinking
about hormone therapy,
972
00:43:12,924 --> 00:43:15,994
which will begin to physically
transform their bodies,
973
00:43:16,027 --> 00:43:18,727
bringing them into alignment
with their gender identity.
974
00:43:18,764 --> 00:43:20,334
MAN: Boo-yah.
975
00:43:20,365 --> 00:43:22,765
KATIE: A person who is assigned
female at birth
976
00:43:22,801 --> 00:43:24,641
but is transitioning to male
977
00:43:24,670 --> 00:43:26,570
would take testosterone.
978
00:43:26,604 --> 00:43:28,674
A person who is assigned
male at birth
979
00:43:28,707 --> 00:43:32,177
but is transitioning to female
would take estrogen.
980
00:43:32,210 --> 00:43:34,180
JEAN: Cross hormones have
permanent effects,
981
00:43:34,212 --> 00:43:36,782
so transgender adolescents
have to understand
982
00:43:36,815 --> 00:43:38,845
that once they start
cross hormones,
983
00:43:38,884 --> 00:43:40,254
their body's gonna change.
984
00:43:40,285 --> 00:43:42,785
They might grow breasts,
they might grow facial hair,
985
00:43:42,821 --> 00:43:44,321
their voice tone
is gonna change.
986
00:43:44,355 --> 00:43:47,055
But obviously,
these are permanent changes.
987
00:43:49,394 --> 00:43:50,864
OLIVER: In order for me
to start testosterone,
988
00:43:50,896 --> 00:43:51,996
my parents have to
consent to it,
989
00:43:52,030 --> 00:43:54,030
because I am not an adult,
I'm a minor.
990
00:43:54,065 --> 00:43:55,425
MAN: Oliver.
OLIVER: Piper.
991
00:43:55,466 --> 00:43:57,866
JOSHUA: The guidelines that
are out there right now
992
00:43:57,903 --> 00:44:02,213
for cross sex hormones
are very conservative.
993
00:44:02,240 --> 00:44:03,880
EJ: I know for a fact
994
00:44:03,909 --> 00:44:07,179
that you have to have a letter
from a therapist.
995
00:44:07,212 --> 00:44:08,212
OLIVER: Yeah!
996
00:44:08,246 --> 00:44:09,376
MAN: Very good.
997
00:44:09,414 --> 00:44:11,224
JEAN: We do a comprehensive
assessment.
998
00:44:11,249 --> 00:44:12,379
Always make sure that
999
00:44:12,417 --> 00:44:13,847
every kid in every family
1000
00:44:13,885 --> 00:44:15,845
has an in-depth assessment
1001
00:44:15,887 --> 00:44:17,857
and process to really find out
1002
00:44:17,889 --> 00:44:20,729
what the right pathway
is for them.
1003
00:44:20,759 --> 00:44:22,629
EJ: I fortunately had
a good therapist.
1004
00:44:22,660 --> 00:44:23,730
She got me on it right away,
1005
00:44:23,762 --> 00:44:25,732
because I talked about it
so much.
1006
00:44:25,764 --> 00:44:29,034
She knew that I needed
to be on hormones.
1007
00:44:29,067 --> 00:44:31,537
I'm almost six months on T.
1008
00:44:31,569 --> 00:44:32,739
OLIVER: Lucky.
1009
00:44:32,771 --> 00:44:34,071
I want to be six months
on T already.
1010
00:44:34,105 --> 00:44:36,465
EJ: It's so, it, like,
goes by like that. [snaps]
1011
00:44:36,507 --> 00:44:37,707
You don't even notice it.
1012
00:44:37,743 --> 00:44:39,883
It's cool to see different
people's reactions
1013
00:44:39,911 --> 00:44:42,011
to how my voice
is getting deeper
1014
00:44:42,047 --> 00:44:44,217
and will be continuing
to get deeper.
1015
00:44:44,249 --> 00:44:45,879
Is the reason you haven't,
like, started hormones
1016
00:44:45,917 --> 00:44:47,887
is because of your parents?
1017
00:44:47,919 --> 00:44:50,259
OLIVER: I think the reason
why they are so resistant
1018
00:44:50,288 --> 00:44:54,258
is they think, I'm pretty sure
they think it's a phase.
1019
00:44:54,292 --> 00:44:55,092
EJ: Yeah.
1020
00:44:55,126 --> 00:44:57,326
OLIVER: It's just upsetting.
1021
00:44:57,362 --> 00:44:58,362
EJ: Yeah.
1022
00:44:58,396 --> 00:44:59,926
JEAN: So this whole question
1023
00:44:59,965 --> 00:45:03,765
about who's gonna continue to be
trans as adolescents and adult
1024
00:45:03,802 --> 00:45:05,702
is, you know,
the million-dollar question
1025
00:45:05,737 --> 00:45:06,837
we're all trying to figure out.
1026
00:45:06,872 --> 00:45:09,942
We don't have an exact way
to say,
1027
00:45:09,975 --> 00:45:12,005
'I can guarantee that
this child will continue
1028
00:45:12,043 --> 00:45:15,283
identified this way
in 10, 15, 20 years.'
1029
00:45:15,313 --> 00:45:19,453
But what we know is that not
having this conversation
1030
00:45:19,484 --> 00:45:23,394
is also a risk that
we cannot afford take.
1031
00:45:23,421 --> 00:45:25,861
You know, the suicide rate
in the young people
1032
00:45:25,891 --> 00:45:28,761
or even in children
is really staggering,
1033
00:45:28,794 --> 00:45:31,764
so we must have those
difficult conversations.
1034
00:45:31,797 --> 00:45:33,357
KADO STEWART:
Statistically, almost half
1035
00:45:33,398 --> 00:45:38,398
of trans-identified people have
attempted or died by suicide.
1036
00:45:38,436 --> 00:45:39,806
That's unacceptable.
1037
00:45:39,838 --> 00:45:42,568
It's a question of
do we want them to live?
1038
00:45:45,777 --> 00:45:49,917
MAN: What are you guys most
excited about looking forward?
1039
00:45:49,948 --> 00:45:51,578
EJ: This is more
like a personal thing,
1040
00:45:51,616 --> 00:45:54,586
but I'm really excited about
my voice getting deeper.
1041
00:45:54,619 --> 00:45:55,949
[laughter]
1042
00:45:55,987 --> 00:45:58,117
My voice used to be up here,
and now it's down here,
1043
00:45:58,156 --> 00:46:01,256
and, like, that makes me
really happy.
1044
00:46:01,292 --> 00:46:05,462
KATIE: But hormones are not the
final step for a lot of people.
1045
00:46:05,496 --> 00:46:08,766
After that, there's an even
bigger decision ahead.
1046
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,800
You decided to have surgery.
1047
00:46:10,836 --> 00:46:12,066
LINDA ROHR:
I said, 'Goodbye, Bill.'
1048
00:46:12,103 --> 00:46:13,643
And she became Kate.
1049
00:46:18,309 --> 00:46:19,509
DOCTOR: Do you plan
on undergoing
1050
00:46:19,544 --> 00:46:21,584
gender reassignment surgery?
1051
00:46:21,612 --> 00:46:24,352
MAURA: I'm gonna have to
get back to you on that one.
1052
00:46:24,382 --> 00:46:28,252
KATIE: For some trans people,
a definitive step in the process
1053
00:46:28,286 --> 00:46:32,016
brings them to Dr. Marci Bowers'
operating room.
1054
00:46:32,057 --> 00:46:34,857
I wanted to learn more about
Marci and her patients,
1055
00:46:34,893 --> 00:46:37,763
so I got on a plane
to San Francisco.
1056
00:46:37,795 --> 00:46:44,165
*
1057
00:46:44,202 --> 00:46:45,702
Hi, Marci.
1058
00:46:45,736 --> 00:46:47,136
MARCI BOWERS: Hi, Katie, it's
such a pleasure to meet you.
1059
00:46:47,172 --> 00:46:48,712
KATIE: It is so nice
to meet you.
1060
00:46:48,739 --> 00:46:51,979
It's hard to find someone more
personally invested in her job
1061
00:46:52,010 --> 00:46:58,180
than Marci Bowers, an OB/GYN
who transitioned in 1998.
1062
00:46:58,216 --> 00:47:02,216
Marci is feisty, friendly,
and very funny.
1063
00:47:02,253 --> 00:47:05,123
MARCI: Somebody called me the
Georgia O'Keeffe of genitalia.
1064
00:47:05,156 --> 00:47:06,556
[laughs]
1065
00:47:06,591 --> 00:47:08,161
KATIE: When I met her,
1066
00:47:08,193 --> 00:47:10,833
she was getting ready to perform
her second surgery of the day.
1067
00:47:10,862 --> 00:47:13,802
So it's not called gender
reassignment surgery anymore?
1068
00:47:13,831 --> 00:47:15,201
MARCI: Well, the idea is that
1069
00:47:15,233 --> 00:47:19,573
really, your gender is something
that you feel internally
1070
00:47:19,604 --> 00:47:21,214
at a very, very early age.
1071
00:47:21,239 --> 00:47:23,409
And so it really doesn't change.
1072
00:47:23,441 --> 00:47:24,981
So you're not
reassigning gender,
1073
00:47:25,010 --> 00:47:27,980
you're, you're affirming
or confirming
1074
00:47:28,013 --> 00:47:29,713
what you felt since
you're an early child.
1075
00:47:29,747 --> 00:47:30,917
KATIE: Got it.
1076
00:47:30,949 --> 00:47:32,579
MARCI: Or I like
gender affirmation surgery,
1077
00:47:32,617 --> 00:47:36,187
but then that stands for GAS
and nobody likes gas, so.
1078
00:47:36,221 --> 00:47:37,591
[laughs]
1079
00:47:37,622 --> 00:47:40,232
KATIE: So maybe gender
confirmation's a better term.
1080
00:47:40,258 --> 00:47:42,428
MARCI: Gender confirm,
GCS seems right.
1081
00:47:42,460 --> 00:47:43,760
KATIE:
Well, let's go see Allison.
1082
00:47:43,794 --> 00:47:45,664
MARCI: Let's go see Allison.
1083
00:47:45,696 --> 00:47:47,866
[knocks]
1084
00:47:47,899 --> 00:47:49,029
Hi, Allison, how are you?
1085
00:47:49,067 --> 00:47:50,067
ALLISON: Not bad, you?
1086
00:47:50,101 --> 00:47:51,601
MARCI: Good.
I have a special guest.
1087
00:47:51,636 --> 00:47:54,706
KATIE: Hi. I'm Katie. Hi.
ALLISON: Hi, I'm Allison.
1088
00:47:54,739 --> 00:47:56,839
KATIE: Very nice to meet you.
ALLISON: You, too.
1089
00:47:56,874 --> 00:47:58,214
KATIE: How are you feeling,
Allison?
1090
00:47:58,243 --> 00:47:59,243
ALLISON: Nervous and excited.
1091
00:47:59,277 --> 00:48:00,747
KATIE: Yeah?
ALLISON: Mm-hmm.
1092
00:48:00,778 --> 00:48:02,008
KATIE: More nervous
or more excited?
1093
00:48:02,047 --> 00:48:03,047
ALLISON: Mostly excited.
1094
00:48:03,081 --> 00:48:04,281
KATIE: Oh, good.
1095
00:48:04,315 --> 00:48:06,115
Can I ask you what your name was
before Allison,
1096
00:48:06,151 --> 00:48:07,691
or would you rather I didn't?
1097
00:48:07,718 --> 00:48:08,948
ALLISON: I'd prefer not.
1098
00:48:08,987 --> 00:48:10,517
I don't like really thinking
about my old name,
1099
00:48:10,555 --> 00:48:13,115
because it really isn't me
and it never really was.
1100
00:48:13,158 --> 00:48:14,958
KATIE: That's something
called dead naming.
1101
00:48:14,993 --> 00:48:16,093
I just learned that.
1102
00:48:16,127 --> 00:48:17,127
ALLISON: Mm-hmm.
1103
00:48:17,162 --> 00:48:19,402
KATIE: Explain what that is,
Allison.
1104
00:48:19,430 --> 00:48:23,100
ALLISON: Just the idea
that your old self,
1105
00:48:23,134 --> 00:48:26,944
who was a depressed person,
is effectively dead
1106
00:48:26,972 --> 00:48:29,912
and gave birth to
a newer, happier person.
1107
00:48:29,941 --> 00:48:31,541
KATIE: Well, good luck
with everything,
1108
00:48:31,576 --> 00:48:33,706
and thank you for
letting us talk to you
1109
00:48:33,744 --> 00:48:37,324
during what is, I'm sure,
an anxiety-producing time.
1110
00:48:37,348 --> 00:48:39,818
MARCI: Okay, sweetheart,
so we're gonna do well, okay?
1111
00:48:39,850 --> 00:48:41,490
ALLISON: Okay.
MARCI: Okay. Bye, baby.
1112
00:48:41,519 --> 00:48:42,489
ALLISON: Bye.
1113
00:48:44,355 --> 00:48:46,955
KATIE: How many of these
surgeries do you perform a year?
1114
00:48:46,992 --> 00:48:51,132
MARCI: Approximately 140 to 150
per year.
1115
00:48:51,162 --> 00:48:53,002
This is just the male to female.
1116
00:48:53,031 --> 00:48:55,131
KATIE: And what about
female to male?
1117
00:48:55,166 --> 00:48:56,766
MARCI: They're more difficult
surgeries to perform,
1118
00:48:56,801 --> 00:48:59,771
and they have more complications
that are potential.
1119
00:48:59,804 --> 00:49:02,014
And not all female to males
1120
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,740
seek to have
gender confirmation surgery.
1121
00:49:04,775 --> 00:49:05,905
KATIE: And for those who do wish
1122
00:49:05,943 --> 00:49:09,653
to anatomically
go from female to male,
1123
00:49:09,680 --> 00:49:12,920
Marci provides a less
complicated method
1124
00:49:12,950 --> 00:49:16,850
which relies primarily
on testosterone.
1125
00:49:16,887 --> 00:49:19,857
Her waiting list
is three years long.
1126
00:49:19,890 --> 00:49:21,930
While some choose
not to have surgery,
1127
00:49:21,959 --> 00:49:24,029
there are plenty who want it,
1128
00:49:24,062 --> 00:49:27,132
especially now that it's being
covered by insurance
1129
00:49:27,165 --> 00:49:29,325
in a growing list of states.
1130
00:49:29,367 --> 00:49:31,797
I know that you have
more and more seniors.
1131
00:49:31,836 --> 00:49:33,596
MARCI: Our oldest patient
was 76,
1132
00:49:33,638 --> 00:49:35,138
and we've actually had
two of those.
1133
00:49:35,173 --> 00:49:36,213
KATIE: Wow.
1134
00:49:36,241 --> 00:49:37,311
MARCI: We have someone
on the schedule
1135
00:49:37,342 --> 00:49:38,982
apparently who's about 80.
1136
00:49:39,010 --> 00:49:40,550
KATIE: Really?
1137
00:49:40,578 --> 00:49:43,808
MARCI: And their feelings were
that they did not want to die
1138
00:49:43,848 --> 00:49:45,548
in their birth-assigned gender.
1139
00:49:45,583 --> 00:49:49,523
They wanted to die as the person
they felt themselves to be.
1140
00:49:52,490 --> 00:49:54,630
KATIE: From Mills-Peninsula
Medical Center,
1141
00:49:54,659 --> 00:50:01,129
I took the long and winding road
to Fort Bragg, California.
1142
00:50:01,166 --> 00:50:02,896
I was first introduced
to the Rohrs
1143
00:50:02,933 --> 00:50:06,603
when I watched a piece about
them by the Washington Post.
1144
00:50:12,443 --> 00:50:16,183
KATIE: For Kate, transitioning
has been a lifelong journey.
1145
00:50:16,214 --> 00:50:18,654
And unlike many other
transgender people,
1146
00:50:18,683 --> 00:50:23,693
she's very comfortable
talking about her past.
1147
00:50:23,721 --> 00:50:28,431
Bill Rohr was born in
Fanwood, New Jersey, in 1946.
1148
00:50:28,459 --> 00:50:31,729
KATE: When I was three or four,
I knew something was wrong.
1149
00:50:31,762 --> 00:50:33,102
People talk about it,
1150
00:50:33,131 --> 00:50:35,231
and it's been written about
being in the wrong body.
1151
00:50:35,266 --> 00:50:37,396
I never thought of it that way.
1152
00:50:37,435 --> 00:50:40,105
I just knew something was wrong.
1153
00:50:40,138 --> 00:50:42,338
My mother had this habit
every year
1154
00:50:42,373 --> 00:50:45,343
of taking the picture of the two
boys to send to everybody,
1155
00:50:45,376 --> 00:50:47,876
you know, the two boys
sitting together.
1156
00:50:47,912 --> 00:50:49,612
And we always had
the same shirt.
1157
00:50:49,647 --> 00:50:51,747
And one year,
I finally declared,
1158
00:50:51,782 --> 00:50:53,622
'I don't want to wear
my brother's shirt.'
1159
00:50:53,651 --> 00:50:55,121
And so she said,
'Alright. Go pick it out.'
1160
00:50:55,153 --> 00:50:56,293
And I went over
the girls' department
1161
00:50:56,321 --> 00:50:58,621
and picked out a girl's T-shirt.
1162
00:50:58,656 --> 00:50:59,956
She took it to the counter
and the woman said,
1163
00:50:59,990 --> 00:51:01,760
'You can't buy this for him.'
1164
00:51:01,792 --> 00:51:03,362
She said, 'Why not?'
She said, 'It's a girl's.'
1165
00:51:03,394 --> 00:51:05,604
And my mother had to
put it back.
1166
00:51:05,630 --> 00:51:08,430
The message was you're a boy,
and this is what boys do,
1167
00:51:08,466 --> 00:51:10,796
and you will live
the boy's life.
1168
00:51:10,835 --> 00:51:13,265
KATIE: And that's exactly
what he did
1169
00:51:13,304 --> 00:51:15,974
in the most all-American way.
1170
00:51:16,006 --> 00:51:18,106
In high school,
he was an A student,
1171
00:51:18,143 --> 00:51:22,483
lettered in varsity track and
was student council president.
1172
00:51:22,513 --> 00:51:26,423
Then it was on to Princeton
and later medical school.
1173
00:51:26,451 --> 00:51:28,321
Just as the scientific community
1174
00:51:28,353 --> 00:51:31,493
was starting to recognize
gender dysphoria,
1175
00:51:31,522 --> 00:51:34,262
Bill met a young woman
named Linda.
1176
00:51:34,292 --> 00:51:35,462
KATE: Yeah, it was 1966.
1177
00:51:35,493 --> 00:51:36,663
I had just finally read the book
1178
00:51:36,694 --> 00:51:38,904
that says this is
a medical condition.
1179
00:51:38,929 --> 00:51:39,959
It will not change.
1180
00:51:39,997 --> 00:51:41,767
It's somehow programmed
into the brain,
1181
00:51:41,799 --> 00:51:43,669
and then along comes this woman
who all of a sudden,
1182
00:51:43,701 --> 00:51:46,001
I'm just crazy about
and fall head over heels,
1183
00:51:46,036 --> 00:51:47,766
and how am I gonna
put this together?
1184
00:51:47,805 --> 00:51:50,175
So I said, 'Well, the genie
goes in the bottle,
1185
00:51:50,208 --> 00:51:51,608
put the cork on the bottle,
and I'm Bill,
1186
00:51:51,642 --> 00:51:54,752
and we're gonna
make a go at this.'
1187
00:51:54,779 --> 00:51:58,679
KATIE: Did you worry about
putting Linda in this position
1188
00:51:58,716 --> 00:52:03,446
knowing that you weren't really
comfortable as Bill?
1189
00:52:03,488 --> 00:52:05,518
KATE: The biggest challenge
I've had
1190
00:52:05,556 --> 00:52:07,656
through this whole transition
1191
00:52:07,692 --> 00:52:11,432
is a level of guilt that was
just really overwhelming
1192
00:52:11,462 --> 00:52:14,672
for having told her that lie
for all these years.
1193
00:52:14,699 --> 00:52:18,439
KATIE: After 45 years
of marriage, two children,
1194
00:52:18,469 --> 00:52:22,169
and a hugely successful career
as an orthopedic surgeon,
1195
00:52:22,207 --> 00:52:23,467
Bill finally told Linda
1196
00:52:23,508 --> 00:52:26,638
the one thing he'd never
admitted to anyone else.
1197
00:52:26,677 --> 00:52:29,147
KATE: I said, 'I don't know
how to tell you this,
1198
00:52:29,180 --> 00:52:34,150
but all my life, I've believed
I'm a woman, that I'm female,
1199
00:52:34,185 --> 00:52:37,115
and that I am therefore
transgendered.'
1200
00:52:37,154 --> 00:52:39,724
And I looked at her
and she started crying,
1201
00:52:39,757 --> 00:52:41,627
and I thought,
'Now what do I do?'
1202
00:52:41,659 --> 00:52:43,189
You have to understand,
all my life,
1203
00:52:43,228 --> 00:52:44,828
I believed my life would end
1204
00:52:44,862 --> 00:52:48,132
the moment another person
discovered this.
1205
00:52:48,165 --> 00:52:49,795
So here I'm sharing the secret,
1206
00:52:49,834 --> 00:52:51,904
but I'm thinking, and now
she's starting to crying,
1207
00:52:51,936 --> 00:52:55,306
and I'm thinking,
'This is it. It is over.'
1208
00:52:55,340 --> 00:52:57,580
She said, 'Well, if you told me
you had cancer,
1209
00:52:57,608 --> 00:52:59,808
you were gonna die,
how would I deal with that?'
1210
00:52:59,844 --> 00:53:01,584
She said, 'If you told me
you were gay
1211
00:53:01,612 --> 00:53:04,012
and really had
an affection for men,
1212
00:53:04,048 --> 00:53:05,178
I have nothing against that,
1213
00:53:05,216 --> 00:53:06,916
but where would I fit
in that picture?'
1214
00:53:06,951 --> 00:53:09,851
She said, 'But this is, you
still love me?' I said, 'Yes.'
1215
00:53:09,887 --> 00:53:10,987
LINDA: Or an affair.
1216
00:53:11,021 --> 00:53:12,491
I was afraid
you were having an affair
1217
00:53:12,523 --> 00:53:14,933
and you were gonna tell me
you found another woman
1218
00:53:14,959 --> 00:53:18,999
or something like that, things
that would end our marriage.
1219
00:53:19,029 --> 00:53:23,929
And the reason why I was crying
was more out of sadness
1220
00:53:23,968 --> 00:53:27,368
for the struggle that
she had lived her whole life
1221
00:53:27,405 --> 00:53:31,735
and that she kept it from me
and from the family
1222
00:53:31,776 --> 00:53:37,516
and sacrificed for us
to give us a really good life.
1223
00:53:37,548 --> 00:53:39,778
KATIE: I think people have
a hard time, in general,
1224
00:53:39,817 --> 00:53:42,617
understanding what it's like
to be transgender.
1225
00:53:42,653 --> 00:53:43,953
KATE: Mm-hmm.
1226
00:53:43,988 --> 00:53:45,718
KATIE: And I think they have
a hard time, Linda,
1227
00:53:45,756 --> 00:53:49,226
understanding what it's like
to be a partner of someone
1228
00:53:49,260 --> 00:53:50,960
who decides to transition.
1229
00:53:50,995 --> 00:53:52,525
LINDA: Sure.
1230
00:53:52,563 --> 00:53:55,303
KATIE: They are like, 'Wait,
you all are staying together?'
1231
00:53:55,333 --> 00:53:57,133
LINDA: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
KATE: Happily.
1232
00:53:57,167 --> 00:53:58,367
KATIE: How do you explain it
to them?
1233
00:53:58,403 --> 00:54:00,943
LINDA: Well, the way
I kind of look at it
1234
00:54:00,971 --> 00:54:04,781
is that we all are given
challenges in life,
1235
00:54:04,809 --> 00:54:10,449
and this is one challenge that
I felt that I could deal with.
1236
00:54:10,481 --> 00:54:12,651
I didn't come to
this conclusion overnight.
1237
00:54:12,683 --> 00:54:15,593
This is something
that I had thanked Kate,
1238
00:54:15,620 --> 00:54:21,760
had time to deal with
after this big revelation.
1239
00:54:21,792 --> 00:54:26,002
Um, I had to say
goodbye to Bill.
1240
00:54:26,030 --> 00:54:29,970
I had to grieve Bill, and
it took me a year to do that.
1241
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:33,240
And Kate gave me that time
that I needed.
1242
00:54:33,270 --> 00:54:34,570
It was very important to her
1243
00:54:34,605 --> 00:54:38,675
that she would not go forward
with a transition
1244
00:54:38,709 --> 00:54:41,679
until I was comfortable with it,
1245
00:54:41,712 --> 00:54:45,522
and this was something that
we were going to do together.
1246
00:54:45,550 --> 00:54:48,290
I just woke up one morning
after praying about it
1247
00:54:48,319 --> 00:54:50,519
and asking for guidance,
1248
00:54:50,555 --> 00:54:51,785
and I woke up one morning
1249
00:54:51,822 --> 00:54:54,692
and I said, 'Okay. I'm ready.
Let's do it.'
1250
00:54:54,725 --> 00:54:57,855
And I was gung-ho,
and I said, 'Goodbye, Bill.'
1251
00:54:57,895 --> 00:55:03,365
You know, Bill's gone,
and she became Kate in my mind.
1252
00:55:03,401 --> 00:55:06,871
And that's how I've looked at it
ever since that day.
1253
00:55:06,904 --> 00:55:11,314
KATIE: I know you talked to
your son in a very manly place.
1254
00:55:11,342 --> 00:55:12,542
KATE: Oh, yes, of course.
1255
00:55:12,577 --> 00:55:13,837
KATIE: In the parking lot,
1256
00:55:13,878 --> 00:55:15,708
in the parking lot
of a Home Depot.
1257
00:55:15,746 --> 00:55:17,676
LINDA: And it was
on Father's Day!
1258
00:55:17,715 --> 00:55:20,645
KATE: Yeah.
KATIE: Oh, my God!
1259
00:55:20,685 --> 00:55:22,715
LINDA: Kate has
impeccable timing.
1260
00:55:22,753 --> 00:55:24,723
KATIE: Matt Rohr lives
with his wife
1261
00:55:24,755 --> 00:55:26,885
in Manchester, New Hampshire.
1262
00:55:26,924 --> 00:55:28,194
You're lucky.
1263
00:55:28,225 --> 00:55:29,655
I've never seen two people
who love each other
1264
00:55:29,694 --> 00:55:31,964
quite as much as your parents.
1265
00:55:31,996 --> 00:55:33,296
MATT: They definitely do.
1266
00:55:33,330 --> 00:55:35,000
And I'm, you know,
I'm definitely blessed
1267
00:55:35,032 --> 00:55:39,642
to have my parents, um...
1268
00:55:39,670 --> 00:55:41,170
KATE: He gets emotional.
1269
00:55:41,205 --> 00:55:42,235
KATIE: That's okay.
1270
00:55:42,272 --> 00:55:44,012
LINDA: But that's Matt.
He's a crybaby.
1271
00:55:44,041 --> 00:55:46,011
[laughs]
1272
00:55:46,043 --> 00:55:49,413
MATT: Yeah, I mean, you know,
my parents are inspirational,
1273
00:55:49,447 --> 00:55:52,917
regardless of
the transgender stuff.
1274
00:55:52,950 --> 00:55:56,820
That is just one small piece
of our family,
1275
00:55:56,854 --> 00:55:59,024
the transgender piece
is just one part of it,
1276
00:55:59,056 --> 00:56:02,226
and that's the new normal
for us, and that's great.
1277
00:56:02,259 --> 00:56:07,929
*
1278
00:56:07,965 --> 00:56:08,925
[click]
1279
00:56:08,966 --> 00:56:10,766
*
1280
00:56:10,801 --> 00:56:12,501
LINDA: They don't have
a whole lot of smell,
1281
00:56:12,537 --> 00:56:13,897
and you wouldn't know
1282
00:56:13,938 --> 00:56:15,608
because your, your sniffer
doesn't work well.
1283
00:56:15,640 --> 00:56:16,710
KATE: Well, it works better
since the estrogen.
1284
00:56:16,741 --> 00:56:18,441
There's no two ways about that.
1285
00:56:18,476 --> 00:56:20,406
All of a sudden,
everything smells different.
1286
00:56:20,445 --> 00:56:22,375
KATIE: You decided
to have surgery?
1287
00:56:22,413 --> 00:56:23,583
KATE: Yes.
1288
00:56:23,614 --> 00:56:25,584
KATIE: Um, why?
Why was that important?
1289
00:56:25,616 --> 00:56:27,716
KATE: If you're as trans
as I am trans,
1290
00:56:27,752 --> 00:56:31,292
and probably as far on the pole
as trans as one can be,
1291
00:56:31,321 --> 00:56:37,291
the genitalia are a marker
of something that's not you.
1292
00:56:37,327 --> 00:56:39,797
It's something you come
to sort of detest.
1293
00:56:39,830 --> 00:56:41,800
But once I have the surgery,
1294
00:56:41,832 --> 00:56:44,672
they can't take Kate away
from me anymore.
1295
00:56:47,672 --> 00:56:48,712
LINDA: How is she doing?
1296
00:56:48,739 --> 00:56:50,979
MARCI: She's a girl.
1297
00:56:51,008 --> 00:56:53,478
LINDA: She's a girl.
MARCI: Yeah.
1298
00:56:53,511 --> 00:56:56,311
KATIE: Linda, you are
a heterosexual woman.
1299
00:56:56,346 --> 00:56:58,416
LINDA: Yes, I am heterosexual.
1300
00:56:58,449 --> 00:57:01,819
I am not attracted to women.
1301
00:57:01,852 --> 00:57:06,592
The fact that my partner
now is a woman
1302
00:57:06,624 --> 00:57:09,494
and I have loved her
for 48 years
1303
00:57:09,527 --> 00:57:14,227
doesn't change
my sexual orientation.
1304
00:57:14,264 --> 00:57:15,304
That doesn't change.
1305
00:57:15,332 --> 00:57:16,832
I know people will look at me
and say,
1306
00:57:16,867 --> 00:57:20,507
well, because you're in
a relationship now with a woman,
1307
00:57:20,538 --> 00:57:22,338
that changes your label or...
1308
00:57:22,372 --> 00:57:23,342
KATIE: Or are you gay?
1309
00:57:23,373 --> 00:57:24,843
LINDA: Or are you gay?
1310
00:57:24,875 --> 00:57:28,345
No, I'm not, because I am not
attracted to other women,
1311
00:57:28,378 --> 00:57:32,678
and I would not be in another
relationship with another woman.
1312
00:57:32,717 --> 00:57:35,687
You know, you may not have
the traditional way
1313
00:57:35,720 --> 00:57:38,860
of pleasuring each other when
you are as a man and a woman,
1314
00:57:38,889 --> 00:57:41,029
but you, you just find
different ways
1315
00:57:41,058 --> 00:57:44,828
of, you know,
having that pleasure,
1316
00:57:44,862 --> 00:57:48,372
and it would be the same
if someone had an accident
1317
00:57:48,398 --> 00:57:50,428
and couldn't even
perform anymore.
1318
00:57:50,467 --> 00:57:51,867
But some people, again,
1319
00:57:51,902 --> 00:57:54,712
that is a very important part
of a relationship.
1320
00:57:54,739 --> 00:57:57,009
And I can understand that.
1321
00:57:57,041 --> 00:58:01,311
And it was very important to us
for 45 years,
1322
00:58:01,345 --> 00:58:05,515
and it still is important to us,
but it has changed.
1323
00:58:05,550 --> 00:58:06,850
KATE: I've always loved women.
1324
00:58:06,884 --> 00:58:08,794
I'm still attracted
to this woman.
1325
00:58:08,819 --> 00:58:10,989
I would not replace her
with anyone else.
1326
00:58:11,021 --> 00:58:12,561
Sorry, that's just the way,
1327
00:58:12,590 --> 00:58:14,890
you know, I just am intensely
in love with her.
1328
00:58:14,925 --> 00:58:18,995
LINDA: I think that love doesn't
necessarily have a gender.
1329
00:58:19,029 --> 00:58:22,699
It doesn't have to be
sexually oriented.
1330
00:58:22,733 --> 00:58:26,743
If you love someone, you're
willing to do what it takes
1331
00:58:26,771 --> 00:58:30,411
in order to make that work.
1332
00:58:30,440 --> 00:58:32,080
SABEL SAMONE-LORECA:
Even in everything
1333
00:58:32,109 --> 00:58:33,579
that's being done today,
1334
00:58:33,611 --> 00:58:34,911
I've been a victim
of a hate crime.
1335
00:58:36,180 --> 00:58:38,250
KATIE: But no battle
is more contentious
1336
00:58:38,282 --> 00:58:40,592
than the controversy
over public restrooms.
1337
00:58:40,618 --> 00:58:41,588
GAVIN GRIMM:
It's the Supreme Court.
1338
00:58:41,619 --> 00:58:42,749
I mean, this could
go really well
1339
00:58:42,787 --> 00:58:45,117
or it could go really wrong.
1340
00:58:49,894 --> 00:58:52,834
KATIE: If you want a sign of
how much things have changed,
1341
00:58:52,863 --> 00:58:55,733
just look at the popular
dating app, Tinder.
1342
00:58:55,766 --> 00:58:58,096
Tinder is now
acknowledging gender,
1343
00:58:58,135 --> 00:59:02,835
allowing users to choose
designations beyond the binary.
1344
00:59:02,873 --> 00:59:04,543
WOMAN: It lets trans people feel
1345
00:59:04,575 --> 00:59:06,375
like they're a part of society.
1346
00:59:06,410 --> 00:59:07,910
They're human.
1347
00:59:07,945 --> 00:59:11,775
WOMAN: Having trans people
integrated into the world.
1348
00:59:11,816 --> 00:59:12,846
WOMAN: You know what?
1349
00:59:12,883 --> 00:59:13,953
I can have what every other
1350
00:59:13,984 --> 00:59:16,694
person is deserving of having.
1351
00:59:16,721 --> 00:59:18,621
KATIE: And Tinder is just
the latest example
1352
00:59:18,656 --> 00:59:22,056
of how trans has become
more mainstream.
1353
00:59:22,092 --> 00:59:24,762
You may think given
the avalanche of media coverage
1354
00:59:24,795 --> 00:59:26,225
and greater visibility,
1355
00:59:26,263 --> 00:59:29,733
the trans people feel
more protected now.
1356
00:59:31,501 --> 00:59:34,541
But in fact,
many transgender people
1357
00:59:34,571 --> 00:59:36,711
continue to live in the shadows,
1358
00:59:36,741 --> 00:59:41,211
poor, unemployed, and often
the target of violence.
1359
00:59:41,245 --> 00:59:42,705
SABEL SAMONE-LORECA:
Even in everything else
1360
00:59:42,747 --> 00:59:46,477
that's being done today,
trans women are being killed.
1361
00:59:46,516 --> 00:59:48,416
I've been a victim
of a hate crime,
1362
00:59:48,452 --> 00:59:51,222
but a lot of us don't even have
the strength to go to the court
1363
00:59:51,255 --> 00:59:55,425
or the strength to report a
crime that has been done to us
1364
00:59:55,459 --> 00:59:56,659
because we're constantly being
1365
00:59:56,694 --> 00:59:58,304
pushed down by society
1366
00:59:58,328 --> 01:00:00,428
and stating that we're,
1367
01:00:00,464 --> 01:00:01,874
we are less than.
1368
01:00:03,267 --> 01:00:07,337
KATIE: In 2016, more transgender
people were murdered
1369
01:00:07,371 --> 01:00:09,911
than any other year on record.
1370
01:00:09,940 --> 01:00:12,010
And the unemployment rate
among them in this country
1371
01:00:12,042 --> 01:00:14,512
is twice the national average.
1372
01:00:14,544 --> 01:00:18,854
For trans people of color, it's
four times the national average.
1373
01:00:23,220 --> 01:00:26,390
But someone is trying
to change that.
1374
01:00:27,892 --> 01:00:29,592
WOMAN: Yes, I did two.
1375
01:00:29,626 --> 01:00:31,026
KATIE: Michaela Mendelsohn,
1376
01:00:31,061 --> 01:00:34,871
a trans woman who owns
six El Pollo Loco franchises
1377
01:00:34,899 --> 01:00:36,769
in the Los Angeles area.
1378
01:00:36,801 --> 01:00:38,871
She's been making
a concerted effort
1379
01:00:38,903 --> 01:00:41,873
to hire trans workers
at her restaurants.
1380
01:00:41,906 --> 01:00:44,106
MICHAELA MENDELSOHN:
I realized how lucky I was
1381
01:00:44,141 --> 01:00:45,881
to have transitioned as a boss.
1382
01:00:45,910 --> 01:00:48,650
You know, what I saw was
that trans women,
1383
01:00:48,679 --> 01:00:50,949
their self-esteem was so low
1384
01:00:50,981 --> 01:00:52,521
because of the way
they were treated,
1385
01:00:52,549 --> 01:00:56,019
that they were starting
to accept this as, as normal,
1386
01:00:56,053 --> 01:00:58,993
that they were starting to
almost believe they deserved it.
1387
01:00:59,023 --> 01:01:00,663
And this just wasn't right.
1388
01:01:00,691 --> 01:01:04,831
That's when I decided to start
helping trans people get jobs.
1389
01:01:04,862 --> 01:01:08,032
KATIE: At the restaurant
I visited in Central LA,
1390
01:01:08,065 --> 01:01:11,095
a third of the staff is trans.
1391
01:01:15,272 --> 01:01:19,682
KATIE: Both of you worked
in other fast food restaurants.
1392
01:01:19,710 --> 01:01:23,450
What about you, Kristy, and what
was that like compared to this?
1393
01:01:48,472 --> 01:01:50,072
KATIE: So, you got fired?
1394
01:01:55,579 --> 01:01:56,909
KATIE: And what did he say?
1395
01:02:10,094 --> 01:02:12,164
KATIE: Your nose was broken
by a customer?
1396
01:02:14,264 --> 01:02:15,474
KATIE: Really?
JESSYE: Mm-hmm.
1397
01:02:15,499 --> 01:02:18,499
KATIE: Because of your,
your gender identity?
1398
01:02:28,345 --> 01:02:32,475
MARIE: We work hard and
we have struggled from day one.
1399
01:02:32,516 --> 01:02:34,076
And here, I could be myself.
1400
01:02:34,118 --> 01:02:37,788
Our customers get educated
just, just by seeing us here,
1401
01:02:37,822 --> 01:02:40,422
just seeing her in a position
of leadership,
1402
01:02:40,457 --> 01:02:42,827
seeing her in a position
of leadership, seeing me there,
1403
01:02:42,860 --> 01:02:45,060
in a position where I am
interacting with them,
1404
01:02:45,095 --> 01:02:47,725
and I'm providing a service
of excellency,
1405
01:02:47,764 --> 01:02:50,774
they know now that
we are capable of that,
1406
01:02:50,801 --> 01:02:52,741
that we're no longer
just someone
1407
01:02:52,769 --> 01:02:54,099
who has to dedicate
to street work.
1408
01:02:54,138 --> 01:02:55,268
Now, this is an individual
1409
01:02:55,305 --> 01:02:57,435
that is also capable
of doing much more.
1410
01:02:57,474 --> 01:02:59,244
KATIE: What do you hope
to be doing in 10 years?
1411
01:02:59,276 --> 01:03:01,246
MARIE: Well, I want to be
a person like Michaela
1412
01:03:01,278 --> 01:03:03,948
who are able to empower
other women like us
1413
01:03:03,981 --> 01:03:08,921
to be better and then
to truly help this community.
1414
01:03:08,953 --> 01:03:10,593
KATIE: Well, I think
you're doing that already.
1415
01:03:10,620 --> 01:03:11,620
Don't you?
1416
01:03:11,655 --> 01:03:13,085
MARIE: Well, we hope we are.
1417
01:03:13,123 --> 01:03:16,693
KRISTY: You have Melvin's
Ultimate Bowl, right? Good.
1418
01:03:16,726 --> 01:03:17,856
MICHAELA: We get
more compliments
1419
01:03:17,895 --> 01:03:19,795
on our trans employees
than anybody else,
1420
01:03:19,830 --> 01:03:21,300
because they are thriving.
1421
01:03:21,331 --> 01:03:22,631
It's the first time
in their lives
1422
01:03:22,666 --> 01:03:25,236
they get a chance to work
as their authentic self.
1423
01:03:28,505 --> 01:03:31,275
MICHAELA: 25% of the trans women
I've hired
1424
01:03:31,308 --> 01:03:32,678
have made it into management,
1425
01:03:32,709 --> 01:03:35,949
and it speaks of their attitude
of being so appreciative
1426
01:03:35,980 --> 01:03:38,880
and so happy to be doing
what they're doing.
1427
01:03:38,916 --> 01:03:40,886
KATIE: While Michaela's
changing the lives
1428
01:03:40,918 --> 01:03:43,788
of her trans employees
in California,
1429
01:03:43,820 --> 01:03:46,360
other states have
joined the fight.
1430
01:03:46,390 --> 01:03:49,560
19 have passed laws
prohibiting employers
1431
01:03:49,593 --> 01:03:53,233
from discriminating on the basis
of gender identity.
1432
01:03:53,263 --> 01:03:56,533
But no battle is more
contentious than the controversy
1433
01:03:56,566 --> 01:04:00,636
over transgender rights
and public restrooms.
1434
01:04:00,670 --> 01:04:02,570
PROTESTERS: HB2 has got to go!
1435
01:04:02,606 --> 01:04:05,036
KATIE: The North Carolina
legislature passed a law
1436
01:04:05,075 --> 01:04:09,045
known as HB2 in March of 2016,
1437
01:04:09,079 --> 01:04:12,419
stating that individuals
must use the bathroom
1438
01:04:12,449 --> 01:04:16,089
that correlates with the gender
on their birth certificate.
1439
01:04:16,120 --> 01:04:18,920
But in May, citing Title IX,
1440
01:04:18,956 --> 01:04:22,086
the Obama Administration
directed public schools
1441
01:04:22,126 --> 01:04:24,756
to allow trans students
to use the bathrooms
1442
01:04:24,794 --> 01:04:27,434
that matched
their gender identity.
1443
01:04:27,464 --> 01:04:29,274
LORETTA LYNCH:
To the transgender community,
1444
01:04:29,299 --> 01:04:32,069
we see you, and we will do
everything we can
1445
01:04:32,102 --> 01:04:33,402
to protect you.
1446
01:04:33,437 --> 01:04:36,107
KATIE: 11 states then sued
the federal government,
1447
01:04:36,140 --> 01:04:40,950
and a fiery national debate
erupted.
1448
01:04:40,978 --> 01:04:43,678
PASTOR: This must be
a movement of love
1449
01:04:43,713 --> 01:04:45,253
and a movement of justice!
1450
01:04:45,282 --> 01:04:48,422
WOMAN: I strongly believe
there will be cases of rape.
1451
01:04:48,452 --> 01:04:49,852
JAMES INHOFE:
Our nation's schools
1452
01:04:49,886 --> 01:04:51,286
should not be ground zero
1453
01:04:51,321 --> 01:04:55,291
for social experiments
from liberal agenda.
1454
01:04:55,325 --> 01:04:57,925
KATIE: And now, one case
is heading all the way
1455
01:04:57,962 --> 01:05:00,532
to the Supreme Court.
1456
01:05:00,564 --> 01:05:07,104
*
1457
01:05:07,137 --> 01:05:10,467
Ground zero in the fight
over transgender bathrooms
1458
01:05:10,507 --> 01:05:14,977
is this quiet town
in southern Virginia.
1459
01:05:15,012 --> 01:05:16,152
The unlikely face at the center
1460
01:05:16,180 --> 01:05:19,250
of it all, Gavin Grimm.
1461
01:05:19,283 --> 01:05:20,953
You're not skipping school,
are you?
1462
01:05:20,985 --> 01:05:22,145
GAVIN GRIMM: No, I'm not,
I have an early out.
1463
01:05:22,186 --> 01:05:23,986
KATIE: Okay. Good.
1464
01:05:24,021 --> 01:05:26,291
I came to meet this 17-year-old
1465
01:05:26,323 --> 01:05:28,763
and his pot-bellied pig,
Esmeralda.
1466
01:05:29,826 --> 01:05:32,456
Hey, Esmeralda, how you doing?
1467
01:05:32,496 --> 01:05:34,396
GAVIN: She'll rub on your leg,
so...
1468
01:05:34,431 --> 01:05:35,631
KATIE: She will?
GAVIN: Yeah.
1469
01:05:35,665 --> 01:05:36,665
KATIE: Okay. Whoa!
1470
01:05:36,700 --> 01:05:37,670
GAVIN: There she goes.
1471
01:05:37,701 --> 01:05:38,841
KATIE: Yeah, she really is.
1472
01:05:38,868 --> 01:05:41,108
Hey, how you doing?
1473
01:05:41,138 --> 01:05:43,838
Getting to know you, Esmeralda.
1474
01:05:43,873 --> 01:05:45,383
[oinking]
1475
01:05:47,611 --> 01:05:51,521
Gavin was born a girl
but never felt like one.
1476
01:05:51,548 --> 01:05:54,318
Gavin initially thought,
I'm a lesbian,
1477
01:05:54,351 --> 01:05:56,121
but that didn't
feel right either.
1478
01:05:56,153 --> 01:05:58,593
He'd never even heard
the word transgender,
1479
01:05:58,622 --> 01:06:01,792
but then something on YouTube
changed everything.
1480
01:06:01,825 --> 01:06:06,855
MAN: I am transgender,
I do consider myself male.
1481
01:06:06,896 --> 01:06:07,926
KATIE: When you realized
you were trans,
1482
01:06:07,964 --> 01:06:09,534
you actually went to the doctor.
1483
01:06:09,566 --> 01:06:10,796
GAVIN: I went to
a gender therapist
1484
01:06:10,834 --> 01:06:13,104
who specialized in seeing
transgender youth,
1485
01:06:13,137 --> 01:06:17,667
and it was very apparent to her
very quickly
1486
01:06:17,707 --> 01:06:21,447
that transition had to be done
as quickly as we possibly could,
1487
01:06:21,478 --> 01:06:22,778
because I was suffering greatly.
1488
01:06:22,812 --> 01:06:23,812
KATIE: You and your mom
1489
01:06:23,847 --> 01:06:24,847
went to school
1490
01:06:24,881 --> 01:06:25,951
when you were a sophomore,
1491
01:06:25,982 --> 01:06:26,982
you explained to the school
1492
01:06:27,017 --> 01:06:28,517
what was going on.
1493
01:06:28,552 --> 01:06:34,462
And my understanding is your
high school was pretty accepting
1494
01:06:34,491 --> 01:06:36,391
and receptive, is that accurate?
1495
01:06:36,426 --> 01:06:37,786
GAVIN: I was assured
that I would be respected
1496
01:06:37,827 --> 01:06:38,897
at the school,
1497
01:06:38,928 --> 01:06:41,068
I would be called
exclusively Gavin
1498
01:06:41,098 --> 01:06:44,828
and exclusively
by male pronouns.
1499
01:06:44,868 --> 01:06:46,238
KATIE:
At Gloucester High School,
1500
01:06:46,270 --> 01:06:49,510
Gavin initially used the
bathroom in the nurse's office,
1501
01:06:49,539 --> 01:06:53,409
but it was inconvenient
to get to from his classes,
1502
01:06:53,443 --> 01:06:55,583
and since he was already
using the men's room
1503
01:06:55,612 --> 01:06:57,582
at restaurants
and movie theaters,
1504
01:06:57,614 --> 01:07:00,924
he asked the principal if
he could do the same at school.
1505
01:07:00,950 --> 01:07:02,590
The principal agreed,
1506
01:07:02,619 --> 01:07:05,919
and Gavin says he used
the boys' room without incident
1507
01:07:05,955 --> 01:07:07,755
for nearly two months.
1508
01:07:07,791 --> 01:07:09,831
GAVIN: For me, it was a matter
of going in and going out
1509
01:07:09,859 --> 01:07:11,429
and minding my own business
1510
01:07:11,461 --> 01:07:14,661
as most everyone does
in a bathroom.
1511
01:07:14,698 --> 01:07:17,168
KATIE: But then the school board
got involved.
1512
01:07:17,201 --> 01:07:18,701
WOMAN: We do not want a policy
1513
01:07:18,735 --> 01:07:21,735
of biological boys
and biological girls
1514
01:07:21,771 --> 01:07:25,881
in the same facilities where an
expectation of privacy exists.
1515
01:07:25,909 --> 01:07:27,409
There is no state or federal law
1516
01:07:27,444 --> 01:07:29,454
that overrides
my students' right
1517
01:07:29,479 --> 01:07:32,019
to his and her expectation
of privacy.
1518
01:07:33,283 --> 01:07:35,123
GAVIN: There was a large amount
of negativity
1519
01:07:35,152 --> 01:07:40,622
and just rudeness and cruelty,
1520
01:07:40,657 --> 01:07:47,527
and just this complete
abandonment of basic values
1521
01:07:47,564 --> 01:07:48,904
that, that people should keep,
1522
01:07:48,932 --> 01:07:51,302
which is, you know,
your typical, be nice to people
1523
01:07:51,335 --> 01:07:56,265
and don't call a kid a freak,
you know, that sort of thing.
1524
01:07:56,306 --> 01:07:57,466
KATIE: Is that what
they called you?
1525
01:07:57,507 --> 01:07:58,777
GAVIN: Yeah.
1526
01:07:58,808 --> 01:08:01,478
MAN: Bathrooms are divided
by sex, not gender,
1527
01:08:01,511 --> 01:08:03,311
not some made-up term
that some organization
1528
01:08:03,347 --> 01:08:04,947
wants you to believe
is the truth.
1529
01:08:04,981 --> 01:08:07,881
WOMAN: It's not fair for our
students to have to be fearful
1530
01:08:07,917 --> 01:08:09,487
to go into their own restroom.
1531
01:08:09,519 --> 01:08:12,789
Put him in a separate bathroom
if that's what it's gonna take,
1532
01:08:12,822 --> 01:08:15,992
and I will vote every single
one of you off of this board
1533
01:08:16,025 --> 01:08:18,495
if you do not protect
our children.
1534
01:08:18,528 --> 01:08:20,128
GAVIN: It was a lot
of that dialogue,
1535
01:08:20,164 --> 01:08:24,604
the straw man
evil transgender faker
1536
01:08:24,634 --> 01:08:27,904
going into hurt women and girls
in restrooms,
1537
01:08:27,937 --> 01:08:31,007
and other arguments which
absolutely held no water.
1538
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:34,110
Being transgender does not
make you a sexual deviant
1539
01:08:34,144 --> 01:08:36,484
or a criminal or a predator.
1540
01:08:36,513 --> 01:08:37,753
MAN: How can you tolerate
a public attitude
1541
01:08:37,781 --> 01:08:39,351
that attacks children
1542
01:08:39,383 --> 01:08:41,793
who are uncomfortable with pure
and simple public indecency?
1543
01:08:41,818 --> 01:08:42,818
Thank you.
1544
01:08:42,852 --> 01:08:44,422
[cheering]
1545
01:08:44,454 --> 01:08:46,524
KATIE: The sentiment at that
school board meeting
1546
01:08:46,556 --> 01:08:51,026
seemed to be that you made
the other boys feel awkward.
1547
01:08:51,060 --> 01:08:53,200
GAVIN: Um...
1548
01:08:53,230 --> 01:08:54,600
People will be uncomfortable
1549
01:08:54,631 --> 01:08:56,631
with a thousand different people
in their lifetimes,
1550
01:08:56,666 --> 01:08:58,436
and you can't kick them
out of public living
1551
01:08:58,468 --> 01:09:00,198
because you don't like them.
1552
01:09:00,237 --> 01:09:01,807
KATIE: Another argument
in this community,
1553
01:09:01,838 --> 01:09:04,538
which is a deeply
religious community,
1554
01:09:04,574 --> 01:09:08,354
is this is against God's will.
1555
01:09:08,378 --> 01:09:10,448
What would you say to them?
1556
01:09:10,480 --> 01:09:14,180
GAVIN: Quite frankly, I don't
care about religious arguments,
1557
01:09:14,218 --> 01:09:16,218
because at its core,
1558
01:09:16,253 --> 01:09:18,193
it has no place in lawmaking
1559
01:09:18,222 --> 01:09:22,832
and legislation
and policy making.
1560
01:09:22,859 --> 01:09:24,159
Hello, everybody,
1561
01:09:24,194 --> 01:09:26,134
I'm Gavin Grimm from
Gloucester High School.
1562
01:09:26,162 --> 01:09:29,002
KATIE: How scary was it to speak
at that school board meeting?
1563
01:09:29,032 --> 01:09:33,072
GAVIN: I had absolutely no idea
what I was about to experience,
1564
01:09:33,102 --> 01:09:34,902
but I knew I had to do it.
1565
01:09:34,938 --> 01:09:38,308
I've been aware of who I was
since I was a very young kid,
1566
01:09:38,342 --> 01:09:39,682
and it's taken me
a very long time
1567
01:09:39,709 --> 01:09:43,679
to be able to be myself
and be okay with that.
1568
01:09:43,713 --> 01:09:49,223
The person I am now, being able
to have all of my rights in full
1569
01:09:49,253 --> 01:09:53,163
is such a massive,
dynamic difference
1570
01:09:53,189 --> 01:09:55,429
from the person I was
just last summer.
1571
01:09:55,459 --> 01:09:56,889
I would like to say, too,
1572
01:09:56,926 --> 01:09:59,596
that if the evidence said
that me using the boys' room
1573
01:09:59,629 --> 01:10:03,399
would be catastrophic, I would
not be advocating for myself.
1574
01:10:03,433 --> 01:10:05,443
Regardless of my personal
emotions over this issue,
1575
01:10:05,469 --> 01:10:08,509
I look only at the facts,
as one should in an issue
1576
01:10:08,538 --> 01:10:10,868
that requires separation
of church and state
1577
01:10:10,907 --> 01:10:13,277
and feelings and state.
1578
01:10:13,310 --> 01:10:14,580
KATIE: The school board ruled
1579
01:10:14,611 --> 01:10:17,181
Gavin could no longer use
the men's room.
1580
01:10:17,213 --> 01:10:19,523
Instead, they gave him
the option
1581
01:10:19,549 --> 01:10:22,589
to use three unisex bathrooms.
1582
01:10:22,619 --> 01:10:25,919
Something Gavin
wasn't interested in.
1583
01:10:25,955 --> 01:10:28,525
GAVIN: The problem is, I'm not
looking for a compromise,
1584
01:10:28,558 --> 01:10:30,588
I'm not looking for
separate but equal,
1585
01:10:30,627 --> 01:10:31,897
I'm looking for
the same opportunities
1586
01:10:31,928 --> 01:10:33,928
that my peers enjoy
every single day,
1587
01:10:33,963 --> 01:10:37,473
and that includes using the same
restroom as any other student.
1588
01:10:37,501 --> 01:10:40,471
KATIE: When you first learned
your case was going to be heard
1589
01:10:40,504 --> 01:10:44,974
before the Supreme Court,
what was your reaction?
1590
01:10:45,008 --> 01:10:49,248
GAVIN: The Supreme Court aspect
of it is daunting,
1591
01:10:49,279 --> 01:10:50,749
if only because
it's the Supreme Court.
1592
01:10:50,780 --> 01:10:52,050
I mean, this could
go really well
1593
01:10:52,081 --> 01:10:53,551
or it could go really wrong,
1594
01:10:53,583 --> 01:10:56,223
and I have to be prepared
for that reality.
1595
01:10:56,252 --> 01:10:58,722
But regardless of what happens,
the end will justify the means,
1596
01:10:58,755 --> 01:11:01,085
because even if
we suffer a loss,
1597
01:11:01,124 --> 01:11:03,334
we've generated a conversation
1598
01:11:03,360 --> 01:11:05,560
that's moved the nation
in the right direction,
1599
01:11:05,595 --> 01:11:07,995
and if we win,
and it's after I graduate,
1600
01:11:08,031 --> 01:11:13,401
I'm still doing good
for a lot of other kids.
1601
01:11:13,437 --> 01:11:15,837
ISAAC: My name is Isaac,
and I use he, him, his.
1602
01:11:15,872 --> 01:11:16,672
MALLET: He, him, his.
1603
01:11:16,706 --> 01:11:18,066
MATTHEW: They, them, their.
1604
01:11:18,107 --> 01:11:19,337
KATIE: They, them, theirs?
1605
01:11:19,376 --> 01:11:22,676
My name is Katie
and I use she, her, hers.
1606
01:11:24,113 --> 01:11:26,853
It's all a lot to wrap
your head around, you know.
1607
01:11:30,454 --> 01:11:32,324
PROTESTERS: Our lives matter!
1608
01:11:32,356 --> 01:11:33,756
Free from fear!
1609
01:11:33,790 --> 01:11:35,290
BARACK OBAMA:
That's why we defend people
1610
01:11:35,325 --> 01:11:37,855
who are lesbian, gay, bisexual,
or transgender.
1611
01:11:37,894 --> 01:11:40,004
KATIE: While the battle
over bathrooms
1612
01:11:40,029 --> 01:11:41,999
faces an uncertain future...
1613
01:11:42,031 --> 01:11:46,541
PROTESTERS: Hey, hey, ho, ho,
HB2 has got to go.
1614
01:11:46,570 --> 01:11:48,870
KATIE: Some institutions
are taking matters
1615
01:11:48,905 --> 01:11:50,665
into their own hands.
1616
01:11:53,643 --> 01:11:55,513
Where would you say Yale falls
1617
01:11:55,545 --> 01:11:59,345
in terms of being most
accommodating or progressive
1618
01:11:59,383 --> 01:12:01,023
when it comes to these issues?
1619
01:12:01,050 --> 01:12:02,990
TAMAR SZABĂ“ GENDLER: Yale's,
I think, ahead of things.
1620
01:12:03,019 --> 01:12:05,889
We did an inventory
of the bathrooms on campus,
1621
01:12:05,922 --> 01:12:07,392
and we discovered that
1622
01:12:07,424 --> 01:12:10,164
in virtually every one of
our central campus buildings,
1623
01:12:10,193 --> 01:12:11,903
there was
a single-stall bathroom
1624
01:12:11,928 --> 01:12:14,898
that we could just re-mark
and indicate
1625
01:12:14,931 --> 01:12:19,141
that it was for not one gender
or the other or both,
1626
01:12:19,168 --> 01:12:21,068
but rather for all genders.
1627
01:12:21,104 --> 01:12:25,214
KATIE: What happens if
a Yale freshman girl
1628
01:12:25,241 --> 01:12:31,521
objected to having a transgender
woman as a roommate,
1629
01:12:31,548 --> 01:12:33,218
would you say that was violating
1630
01:12:33,249 --> 01:12:35,689
that transgender woman's
civil rights?
1631
01:12:35,719 --> 01:12:39,059
TAMAR: So, gender identity
and gender expression
1632
01:12:39,088 --> 01:12:40,918
are protected categories,
1633
01:12:40,957 --> 01:12:44,987
and Yale is committed to
treating protected categories
1634
01:12:45,028 --> 01:12:49,228
in ways that the laws governing
civil rights of this country
1635
01:12:49,265 --> 01:12:50,865
tell us we need to.
1636
01:12:50,900 --> 01:12:54,370
KATIE: So basically, you would
say, this is the way it is.
1637
01:12:54,404 --> 01:12:55,614
TAMAR: Yes.
1638
01:12:57,273 --> 01:12:59,543
KATIE: Yale is dealing with
the gender revolution
1639
01:12:59,576 --> 01:13:01,106
in other ways as well.
1640
01:13:01,144 --> 01:13:04,054
TAMAR: One of the things
that became evident to us
1641
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:07,780
is that a number of schools,
most schools, in fact,
1642
01:13:07,817 --> 01:13:10,587
were issuing diplomas
in students' birth names
1643
01:13:10,620 --> 01:13:12,760
rather than
in their affirmed names.
1644
01:13:12,789 --> 01:13:15,189
And Yale made a decision
late last spring
1645
01:13:15,224 --> 01:13:18,804
to issue diplomas in
the affirmed names of students
1646
01:13:18,828 --> 01:13:21,898
who had used those names
throughout their time at Yale.
1647
01:13:21,931 --> 01:13:23,601
KATIE: At times,
do you feel like,
1648
01:13:23,633 --> 01:13:26,143
whoa, whoa, whoa, it's too fast,
it's making me dizzy?
1649
01:13:26,169 --> 01:13:29,139
TAMAR: So, universities
are places that thrive
1650
01:13:29,172 --> 01:13:30,642
on new discovery,
1651
01:13:30,674 --> 01:13:33,114
and I think universities
find it thrilling
1652
01:13:33,142 --> 01:13:36,312
to feel, like, in the face
of new knowledge,
1653
01:13:36,345 --> 01:13:37,605
we are able to figure out
1654
01:13:37,647 --> 01:13:40,517
how to transform society
as a consequence.
1655
01:13:42,652 --> 01:13:44,792
KATIE: Our understanding
of gender these days
1656
01:13:44,821 --> 01:13:47,491
depends on how old you are.
1657
01:13:47,524 --> 01:13:48,994
MAN: Younger people
are more open
1658
01:13:49,025 --> 01:13:51,825
to exploring new ideas
of what gender is.
1659
01:13:51,861 --> 01:13:53,661
WOMAN: I think it's a lot less
black and white now
1660
01:13:53,697 --> 01:13:55,157
than it used to be.
1661
01:13:55,198 --> 01:13:57,798
MAN: I don't believe in
binary-ness at all in nature,
1662
01:13:57,834 --> 01:13:59,104
I believe that everything
is a spectrum
1663
01:13:59,135 --> 01:14:01,135
when you really look at it
closely enough.
1664
01:14:01,170 --> 01:14:03,440
KATIE: I realized how much
things had changed,
1665
01:14:03,473 --> 01:14:07,013
when my college-age daughter
told me she and other students
1666
01:14:07,043 --> 01:14:09,453
introduced themselves
in some classes
1667
01:14:09,479 --> 01:14:12,019
with their names
and their pronouns.
1668
01:14:12,048 --> 01:14:16,148
ISAAC: My name is Isaac, I'm
a senior and I use he, him, his.
1669
01:14:16,185 --> 01:14:19,185
MALLET: Mallet, I am a junior,
he, him his.
1670
01:14:19,222 --> 01:14:25,292
KATIE: My name is Katie,
and I use she, her...
1671
01:14:25,328 --> 01:14:27,328
ISAAC: Hers.
KATIE: Hers.
1672
01:14:27,363 --> 01:14:29,003
[laughter]
1673
01:14:29,032 --> 01:14:32,302
MATTHEW: My name is Matthew,
and I am a junior,
1674
01:14:32,335 --> 01:14:35,135
and I use they, them, their.
1675
01:14:35,171 --> 01:14:36,611
KATIE: They, them, theirs?
1676
01:14:36,640 --> 01:14:42,380
What exactly does it mean to be
they, them, and theirs?
1677
01:14:42,411 --> 01:14:43,651
PERSON: When I was first
going through
1678
01:14:43,680 --> 01:14:45,210
the initial stages
of my transition,
1679
01:14:45,248 --> 01:14:48,018
there was a time period where
I was trying to get people
1680
01:14:48,051 --> 01:14:49,451
to use he, him, his.
1681
01:14:49,485 --> 01:14:52,485
I'm like, that was maybe
less wrong than she, her, hers,
1682
01:14:52,522 --> 01:14:54,562
but wasn't quite right either.
1683
01:14:54,591 --> 01:14:57,331
So I started out trying out,
they, them, theirs,
1684
01:14:57,360 --> 01:15:00,460
and I was just like, this feels
good, like, this feels right.
1685
01:15:00,496 --> 01:15:01,626
MATTHEW: People are
always saying,
1686
01:15:01,665 --> 01:15:03,565
oh, but they is
a plural pronoun,
1687
01:15:03,600 --> 01:15:04,870
like, how can I refer
1688
01:15:04,901 --> 01:15:06,201
to single person that way.
1689
01:15:06,235 --> 01:15:09,005
But in my head, I think,
1690
01:15:09,038 --> 01:15:11,238
well, I am plural.
1691
01:15:11,274 --> 01:15:13,714
I contain multitudes, I am vast.
1692
01:15:13,743 --> 01:15:15,683
KATIE: These aren't just
new concepts,
1693
01:15:15,712 --> 01:15:18,982
there's also an entirely
new vocabulary,
1694
01:15:19,015 --> 01:15:22,385
and I decided I was going
to be the student.
1695
01:15:22,418 --> 01:15:24,588
What is cisgender?
1696
01:15:24,621 --> 01:15:26,591
MALLET: It's me.
[laughter]
1697
01:15:26,623 --> 01:15:28,193
I think it just means that
1698
01:15:28,224 --> 01:15:29,564
you identify with the gender
1699
01:15:29,593 --> 01:15:31,193
you're assigned at birth.
1700
01:15:31,227 --> 01:15:35,427
KATIE: In this group, you are
the lone cisperson, correct?
1701
01:15:35,464 --> 01:15:36,504
MALLET: Yeah.
1702
01:15:36,532 --> 01:15:37,772
KATIE: Except for I am, too,
1703
01:15:37,801 --> 01:15:39,271
so, just so you don't
get too lonely.
1704
01:15:39,302 --> 01:15:40,272
MALLET: Okay.
1705
01:15:40,303 --> 01:15:41,743
KATIE: What is pangender?
1706
01:15:41,771 --> 01:15:44,011
PERSON: Being pangender
would be to identify
1707
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:46,940
with a multitude of genders
as opposed to saying bigender,
1708
01:15:46,976 --> 01:15:50,546
which literally means
two genders.
1709
01:15:50,580 --> 01:15:52,750
KATIE: What is AFAB?
1710
01:15:52,782 --> 01:15:54,352
PERSON:
Assigned female at birth,
1711
01:15:54,383 --> 01:15:55,723
so it gives you, kind of, like,
1712
01:15:55,752 --> 01:15:59,222
one way to define where
you started from.
1713
01:15:59,255 --> 01:16:00,285
KATIE: Is there AMAB?
1714
01:16:00,323 --> 01:16:01,293
ALL: Yes. Mm-hmm.
1715
01:16:01,324 --> 01:16:02,534
PERSON: There's also designate,
1716
01:16:02,558 --> 01:16:04,028
like, people
interchangeably use,
1717
01:16:04,060 --> 01:16:06,560
like, assigned and designated,
male or female at birth.
1718
01:16:06,596 --> 01:16:09,966
PERSON:
So DFAB, DMAB, AFAB, AMAB.
1719
01:16:09,999 --> 01:16:12,399
KATIE: Okay, that's helpful.
1720
01:16:15,238 --> 01:16:16,068
PERSON: Oh!
1721
01:16:16,105 --> 01:16:17,805
PERSON: I know, and I couldn't,
1722
01:16:17,841 --> 01:16:19,311
I actually couldn't believe it.
1723
01:16:19,342 --> 01:16:21,142
KATIE: And what does that,
what does that mean?
1724
01:16:21,177 --> 01:16:24,147
PERSON: It's like this idea that
trans, like, that they are,
1725
01:16:24,180 --> 01:16:25,920
there's a subgroup within
the trans community
1726
01:16:25,949 --> 01:16:28,319
that are just doing
what's trendy.
1727
01:16:28,351 --> 01:16:32,791
KATIE: But that I don't think is
a totally foreign notion,
1728
01:16:32,822 --> 01:16:36,592
that there's a certain element
of trendiness to this,
1729
01:16:36,626 --> 01:16:38,996
which must really
gall you, I'm sure.
1730
01:16:39,028 --> 01:16:42,128
PERSON: I think, like, it's okay
for people to question,
1731
01:16:42,165 --> 01:16:44,165
you know, and to decide,
like, to question,
1732
01:16:44,200 --> 01:16:45,670
and then say,
oh, no, I'm actually,
1733
01:16:45,702 --> 01:16:46,972
I'm cis like I thought I was.
1734
01:16:47,003 --> 01:16:48,673
Okay, you know, but to say
that that person
1735
01:16:48,705 --> 01:16:50,965
is just a transtrender,
you know.
1736
01:16:51,007 --> 01:16:52,507
PERSON: That's in labeling
other people.
1737
01:16:52,541 --> 01:16:55,481
But, like, if somebody is
calling you a transtrender,
1738
01:16:55,511 --> 01:16:59,981
like, if somebody told me that,
I'd just be like...
1739
01:17:00,016 --> 01:17:01,576
KATIE: What's gender fluid?
1740
01:17:01,617 --> 01:17:03,847
MATTHEW: Gender fluid means
that your gender expression
1741
01:17:03,887 --> 01:17:07,517
and identity shifts through time
1742
01:17:07,556 --> 01:17:09,326
on different days,
different weeks.
1743
01:17:09,358 --> 01:17:12,098
KATIE: It's all a lot to wrap
your head around, you know,
1744
01:17:12,128 --> 01:17:15,258
so I really appreciate you all
helping me understand it,
1745
01:17:15,298 --> 01:17:20,138
because, you know,
as a 59-year-old cis female...
1746
01:17:22,071 --> 01:17:23,711
It's tough.
1747
01:17:23,740 --> 01:17:25,540
Some people watching this
might wonder
1748
01:17:25,574 --> 01:17:27,384
what the heck is going on here?
1749
01:17:27,410 --> 01:17:31,820
Why are we suddenly seeing
such huge changes
1750
01:17:31,848 --> 01:17:35,548
in the way people are
looking at their gender?
1751
01:17:35,584 --> 01:17:36,724
MATTHEW: I think the Internet
1752
01:17:36,753 --> 01:17:38,623
actually has a lot
to do with this.
1753
01:17:38,654 --> 01:17:40,224
Websites like Tumblr,
1754
01:17:40,256 --> 01:17:43,386
they bring lots of kids together
from across the country
1755
01:17:43,426 --> 01:17:47,356
where they can all voice their
questions about themselves.
1756
01:17:47,396 --> 01:17:49,196
ISAAC: For me, Facebook
is a source of support
1757
01:17:49,232 --> 01:17:53,172
that a year ago to this date,
maybe, I posted a status saying,
1758
01:17:53,202 --> 01:17:57,372
'I'm transgender,' and that was
huge, and I got like 500 likes,
1759
01:17:57,406 --> 01:17:59,906
and you know,
people messaged me on Facebook
1760
01:17:59,943 --> 01:18:02,183
and were like, I support you
and I send my love.
1761
01:18:02,211 --> 01:18:06,921
I'm really happy that
I exist in the 21st century.
1762
01:18:06,950 --> 01:18:10,220
PERSON: But it's not sudden,
it's not new.
1763
01:18:10,253 --> 01:18:14,063
I mean, people who might
identify as trans,
1764
01:18:14,090 --> 01:18:16,760
they've always existed
in cultures
1765
01:18:16,793 --> 01:18:19,833
for as long as
we've had history,
1766
01:18:19,863 --> 01:18:23,333
and we find it now
everywhere across the world.
1767
01:18:23,366 --> 01:18:25,196
KATIE: In fact,
there are other cultures
1768
01:18:25,234 --> 01:18:29,114
that do not follow our
Western notion of the binary.
1769
01:18:29,138 --> 01:18:32,938
To learn more about that,
I met up with Dr. Paul Vasey,
1770
01:18:32,976 --> 01:18:36,846
an anthropologist who's been
doing research in Samoa
1771
01:18:36,880 --> 01:18:39,580
for the last 10 years.
1772
01:18:39,615 --> 01:18:43,885
How did you get interested in
studying how gender is seen
1773
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:45,190
really around the world?
1774
01:18:45,221 --> 01:18:48,061
PAUL VASEY: The cultures I study
are unique
1775
01:18:48,091 --> 01:18:50,031
from a Western perspective,
1776
01:18:50,059 --> 01:18:51,859
because they recognize
1777
01:18:51,895 --> 01:18:53,225
more than two genders,
1778
01:18:53,262 --> 01:18:55,772
so there are people
in these societies
1779
01:18:55,799 --> 01:18:59,299
that are neither men
nor are they women,
1780
01:18:59,335 --> 01:19:02,435
they're something else.
1781
01:19:02,471 --> 01:19:03,971
In Samoa for example,
1782
01:19:04,007 --> 01:19:06,207
there are feminine,
same-sex attracted males
1783
01:19:06,242 --> 01:19:09,152
that are not men
and they're not women,
1784
01:19:09,178 --> 01:19:12,978
they're called fa'afafine, which
means in the manner of a woman.
1785
01:19:13,016 --> 01:19:15,276
KATIE: Are they men...
1786
01:19:15,318 --> 01:19:17,818
Well, not men,
but anatomically men?
1787
01:19:17,854 --> 01:19:19,164
PAUL: Yeah.
1788
01:19:19,188 --> 01:19:21,658
KATIE: And externally
sort of something else?
1789
01:19:21,690 --> 01:19:22,730
I'm really struggling here,
aren't I?
1790
01:19:22,758 --> 01:19:24,328
PAUL: Yeah. That's normal.
1791
01:19:24,360 --> 01:19:27,800
I mean, these are, these are
kind of complicated concepts
1792
01:19:27,831 --> 01:19:29,331
when you start mixing
and matching
1793
01:19:29,365 --> 01:19:33,495
all these different
identity categories
1794
01:19:33,536 --> 01:19:35,736
and gender variants, exactly.
1795
01:19:35,771 --> 01:19:38,171
They certainly look
highly feminine.
1796
01:19:38,207 --> 01:19:39,777
From our cultural perspective,
1797
01:19:39,809 --> 01:19:41,439
we would identify them
as transgender,
1798
01:19:41,477 --> 01:19:45,347
but that's not really a word
that exists in those cultures.
1799
01:19:45,381 --> 01:19:46,751
In these cultures,
1800
01:19:46,782 --> 01:19:49,422
the individuals aren't
recognized as men or women,
1801
01:19:49,452 --> 01:19:52,662
they're a third alternative
altogether.
1802
01:19:57,526 --> 01:19:59,696
KATIE: How are these
individuals treated?
1803
01:19:59,728 --> 01:20:02,098
Are they tolerated,
are they celebrated?
1804
01:20:02,131 --> 01:20:05,131
PAUL: What's striking
for any Westerner
1805
01:20:05,168 --> 01:20:06,968
is how fully integrated
1806
01:20:07,003 --> 01:20:09,213
these people are in the society.
1807
01:20:09,238 --> 01:20:11,878
So you go out and you are going
to see these people
1808
01:20:11,908 --> 01:20:13,538
in the market.
1809
01:20:13,576 --> 01:20:17,176
You got to a restaurant, your
server could be a fa'afafine.
1810
01:20:17,213 --> 01:20:19,053
In Samoa, the prime minister
1811
01:20:19,082 --> 01:20:21,522
is the patron of
the Fa'afafine Association,
1812
01:20:21,550 --> 01:20:24,150
which gives you some idea
of how accepted they are.
1813
01:20:24,187 --> 01:20:28,117
LESINA: I was raised by
my grandmother as a fa'afafine.
1814
01:20:28,157 --> 01:20:30,327
TANIA: Most of the family
over here in Samoa,
1815
01:20:30,359 --> 01:20:33,359
they have at least one or two
fa'afafine in the family.
1816
01:20:33,396 --> 01:20:37,066
My family, it's about
seven or more.
1817
01:20:37,100 --> 01:20:40,870
We still see some younger ones
coming up,
1818
01:20:40,904 --> 01:20:43,444
and nobody can stop it.
1819
01:20:45,441 --> 01:20:47,541
PAUL: My research shows
time and time again
1820
01:20:47,576 --> 01:20:50,706
how important the fa'afafine
are for the family.
1821
01:20:50,746 --> 01:20:54,146
That important role they play
in terms of sustaining
1822
01:20:54,183 --> 01:20:55,683
and taking care of the family
1823
01:20:55,718 --> 01:21:00,258
couldn't be carried out
if they were tossed aside.
1824
01:21:00,289 --> 01:21:02,159
KATIE: But Samoa isn't
the only place
1825
01:21:02,191 --> 01:21:05,431
to recognize a third gender.
1826
01:21:05,461 --> 01:21:08,901
In India, the hijra have been
a part of society
1827
01:21:08,932 --> 01:21:12,542
for thousands of years
1828
01:21:12,568 --> 01:21:17,108
and are legally recognized as
a third sex by the government.
1829
01:21:17,140 --> 01:21:19,740
And in Mexico,
you'll find the muxe
1830
01:21:19,775 --> 01:21:22,275
from the southern state
of Oaxaca.
1831
01:21:22,311 --> 01:21:24,211
The muxe aren't just
acknowledged,
1832
01:21:24,247 --> 01:21:27,177
but highly revered
and even celebrated
1833
01:21:27,216 --> 01:21:29,446
with a yearly festival.
1834
01:21:29,485 --> 01:21:33,185
And there's evidence that this
isn't just a modern construct,
1835
01:21:33,222 --> 01:21:35,622
but an ancient truth.
1836
01:21:35,658 --> 01:21:37,188
In the Talmud,
1837
01:21:37,226 --> 01:21:40,096
sacred Jewish text dating back
thousands of years,
1838
01:21:40,129 --> 01:21:42,799
there are not just two genders.
1839
01:21:42,831 --> 01:21:44,801
ELLIOT KUKLA:
So there are six genders
1840
01:21:44,833 --> 01:21:47,603
in classical Jewish texts.
1841
01:21:47,636 --> 01:21:48,966
We don't know exactly
1842
01:21:49,005 --> 01:21:50,365
what these genders are,
1843
01:21:50,406 --> 01:21:51,706
but they doing were something
1844
01:21:51,740 --> 01:21:52,940
completely different
1845
01:21:52,976 --> 01:21:54,976
with gender.
1846
01:21:55,011 --> 01:21:58,281
To me, it shows that
we were there, you know,
1847
01:21:58,314 --> 01:22:02,154
there were people that were
beyond male and female,
1848
01:22:02,185 --> 01:22:04,285
and it also shows that
they had a system
1849
01:22:04,320 --> 01:22:06,590
that was clearly not binary.
1850
01:22:08,691 --> 01:22:10,931
KATIE: What do you think about
what you're witnessing
1851
01:22:10,960 --> 01:22:13,160
for the Western world
when it comes to gender?
1852
01:22:13,196 --> 01:22:14,226
PAUL: I mean, I've been
1853
01:22:14,263 --> 01:22:15,663
so blessed, so lucky,
1854
01:22:15,698 --> 01:22:16,668
to get to spend so much of
1855
01:22:16,699 --> 01:22:18,329
my life in these other cultures
1856
01:22:18,367 --> 01:22:21,067
where transgender individuals
1857
01:22:21,104 --> 01:22:25,514
are so socially unproblematic.
1858
01:22:25,541 --> 01:22:29,481
And that is the pathway
down which we should go.
1859
01:22:29,512 --> 01:22:33,352
When you integrate people
into the society,
1860
01:22:33,382 --> 01:22:35,152
the family ends up benefitting,
1861
01:22:35,184 --> 01:22:38,224
and the society as a whole
ends up benefitting.
1862
01:22:40,056 --> 01:22:42,926
KATIE: Renee, you transitioned
in 1975,
1863
01:22:42,958 --> 01:22:45,788
but you see gender
as quite binary.
1864
01:22:45,828 --> 01:22:48,498
RENEE RICHARDS: A binary is
appealing and I like it.
1865
01:22:48,531 --> 01:22:51,371
HARI NEF: Men, women,
boys, girls, pink, blue--
1866
01:22:51,400 --> 01:22:55,070
if that didn't exist, wouldn't
your life have been easier?
1867
01:23:01,244 --> 01:23:02,784
KATIE: When it comes to gender,
1868
01:23:02,811 --> 01:23:07,521
it seems so much has changed
in such a short period of time.
1869
01:23:07,550 --> 01:23:10,550
So I thought it would be
instructive to talk to someone
1870
01:23:10,586 --> 01:23:13,556
who's been on the cutting edge
of this conversation
1871
01:23:13,589 --> 01:23:14,859
for decades.
1872
01:23:14,890 --> 01:23:16,860
This golf course is huge,
isn't it?
1873
01:23:16,892 --> 01:23:18,362
RENEE RICHARDS:
Oh, it's spectacular.
1874
01:23:18,394 --> 01:23:20,004
KATIE: Now, are you
a super good golfer?
1875
01:23:20,029 --> 01:23:21,859
RENEE: No.
KATIE: You're not?
1876
01:23:21,897 --> 01:23:23,397
RENEE: I mean,
it's very frustrating,
1877
01:23:23,432 --> 01:23:25,502
because I was
a good tennis player,
1878
01:23:25,534 --> 01:23:29,004
and you would expect that you're
suddenly gonna be just as good
1879
01:23:29,038 --> 01:23:30,708
at golf, and it does not happen.
1880
01:23:30,739 --> 01:23:33,909
KATIE: It doesn't translate?
1881
01:23:33,942 --> 01:23:36,082
Born Richard Raskind,
1882
01:23:36,112 --> 01:23:39,722
Renee Richards
transitioned in 1975
1883
01:23:39,748 --> 01:23:46,418
at a time when transgender
was not part of the lexicon.
1884
01:23:46,455 --> 01:23:48,885
For a year,
she lived under the radar
1885
01:23:48,924 --> 01:23:52,604
until she entered and won
a women's tennis tournament
1886
01:23:52,628 --> 01:23:54,098
in California.
1887
01:23:54,130 --> 01:23:57,870
The next day, a journalist
outed her as trans,
1888
01:23:57,900 --> 01:23:59,600
creating a media firestorm
1889
01:23:59,635 --> 01:24:03,065
and turning Renee
into a household name.
1890
01:24:03,106 --> 01:24:04,736
She was also the first
transgender woman
1891
01:24:04,773 --> 01:24:08,113
to play in the US Open,
a right she earned
1892
01:24:08,144 --> 01:24:11,114
only after she sued
the US Tennis Association
1893
01:24:11,147 --> 01:24:14,717
for gender discrimination
and won.
1894
01:24:14,750 --> 01:24:16,550
RENEE: I got a good tee for you.
KATIE: Is that okay?
1895
01:24:16,585 --> 01:24:18,285
RENEE: Because it's pink
for a girl.
1896
01:24:18,321 --> 01:24:20,461
KATIE: Oh, thank you.
1897
01:24:20,489 --> 01:24:23,129
I thought we were getting away
from the pink and blue stuff.
1898
01:24:23,159 --> 01:24:24,189
RENEE: No, no, I'm not.
1899
01:24:24,227 --> 01:24:25,957
I never have and never will.
1900
01:24:25,994 --> 01:24:28,964
Now, take a practice swing.
1901
01:24:28,997 --> 01:24:30,027
There you go.
1902
01:24:30,065 --> 01:24:31,465
KATIE: I'm not a big golfer,
Renee.
1903
01:24:31,500 --> 01:24:32,970
RENEE: I'm gonna give you
a mulligan.
1904
01:24:33,001 --> 01:24:34,071
KATIE: Okay. Thank you.
1905
01:24:34,103 --> 01:24:35,073
RENEE: Do you know what
a mulligan is?
1906
01:24:35,104 --> 01:24:36,614
KATIE: Yeah, a do-over.
1907
01:24:36,639 --> 01:24:38,969
RENEE: Oh, that's what you could
say about my life, huh?
1908
01:24:39,007 --> 01:24:40,637
KATIE: You're a human mulligan.
1909
01:24:40,676 --> 01:24:43,876
Renee was the trans it-girl
of her time.
1910
01:24:43,912 --> 01:24:49,252
So who better to join us than
another trans it-girl, Hari Nef.
1911
01:24:49,285 --> 01:24:51,615
A successful
international model,
1912
01:24:51,654 --> 01:24:55,264
Hari has become a fixture
in fashion and popular culture.
1913
01:24:55,291 --> 01:25:00,131
She's also one of the breakout
stars of Transparent.
1914
01:25:00,163 --> 01:25:02,933
Renee, you're 82 now.
1915
01:25:02,965 --> 01:25:04,665
Hari, you're 23.
1916
01:25:04,700 --> 01:25:06,170
HARI NEF: Yeah.
1917
01:25:06,202 --> 01:25:08,172
KATIE: First and foremost,
what is it like for you, Hari,
1918
01:25:08,204 --> 01:25:11,274
meeting Renee
for the first time?
1919
01:25:13,876 --> 01:25:15,606
[laughs]
1920
01:25:15,644 --> 01:25:18,354
HARI: Um...
1921
01:25:18,381 --> 01:25:23,521
It's like meeting,
like, a postcard
1922
01:25:23,552 --> 01:25:26,162
or like meeting
George Washington,
1923
01:25:26,189 --> 01:25:27,689
you know what I mean?
1924
01:25:27,723 --> 01:25:31,293
Her visibility and her advocacy
has absolutely paved the way
1925
01:25:31,327 --> 01:25:34,527
for folks like me
in the contemporary moment.
1926
01:25:34,563 --> 01:25:37,533
KATIE: Renee,
you transitioned in 1975,
1927
01:25:37,566 --> 01:25:40,196
but you say that word
didn't really even exist.
1928
01:25:40,236 --> 01:25:42,366
RENEE: No, there was
no such a word then.
1929
01:25:42,405 --> 01:25:45,035
KATIE: But it must have
been so lonely.
1930
01:25:45,073 --> 01:25:46,643
RENEE: It was very lonely.
1931
01:25:46,675 --> 01:25:50,105
And when I had my surgery, there
was only one person who knew,
1932
01:25:50,145 --> 01:25:51,545
and that was my cousin.
1933
01:25:51,580 --> 01:25:55,050
And the goal was
essentially to undergo
1934
01:25:55,083 --> 01:25:59,493
a complete transformation and
then merge into the woodwork.
1935
01:25:59,522 --> 01:26:01,222
We were woodworking--
1936
01:26:01,257 --> 01:26:04,057
a new life with a new name
and a new place.
1937
01:26:04,092 --> 01:26:07,002
So, there is tremendous
change now.
1938
01:26:07,029 --> 01:26:12,569
I don't think that Hari's life
is a pink cloud by any means,
1939
01:26:12,601 --> 01:26:17,911
but I'm sure that it's different
than it was in my day
1940
01:26:17,940 --> 01:26:19,240
with many of the same problems,
1941
01:26:19,275 --> 01:26:24,745
but with perhaps fortunately
not all of them.
1942
01:26:24,780 --> 01:26:27,520
KATIE: Hari, it seems to me
you see gender as something
1943
01:26:27,550 --> 01:26:33,590
that can evolve, and
that's something that is fluid.
1944
01:26:33,622 --> 01:26:39,602
And, Renee, you see gender
as still quite binary.
1945
01:26:39,628 --> 01:26:44,168
RENEE: I don't think
she sees gender as fluid.
1946
01:26:44,199 --> 01:26:46,939
HARI: Well, I do.
1947
01:26:46,969 --> 01:26:48,439
RENEE: You do?
1948
01:26:48,471 --> 01:26:50,371
KATIE: I think she just
threw you shade, Renee.
1949
01:26:50,406 --> 01:26:51,766
RENEE: How is it fluid?
1950
01:26:51,807 --> 01:26:52,937
[laughs]
1951
01:26:52,975 --> 01:26:54,435
KATIE: Wait, well,
let's talk about that,
1952
01:26:54,477 --> 01:26:57,907
because you see a very distinct
1953
01:26:57,946 --> 01:27:03,616
male/female binary gender
situation, don't you, Renee?
1954
01:27:03,652 --> 01:27:06,722
RENEE: I had a very happy life
for 40 years as a man,
1955
01:27:06,755 --> 01:27:10,555
and I'm having a very happy life
for 40 years as a woman.
1956
01:27:10,593 --> 01:27:13,463
But that doesn't mean
that I'm gender fluid.
1957
01:27:13,496 --> 01:27:16,966
HARI: I think we're actually
more on the same page on this
1958
01:27:16,999 --> 01:27:18,399
than it seems.
1959
01:27:18,434 --> 01:27:22,544
Like, it is absolutely a binary
society that we live in,
1960
01:27:22,571 --> 01:27:27,711
but I believe that no single
person is inherently gendered.
1961
01:27:27,743 --> 01:27:33,223
Male and female, it's just,
it's just wisps of smoke,
1962
01:27:33,248 --> 01:27:36,548
and if something works for you
in a moment,
1963
01:27:36,585 --> 01:27:38,415
then you can embrace it,
1964
01:27:38,454 --> 01:27:41,924
and if other parts of it don't,
you can get rid of it.
1965
01:27:41,957 --> 01:27:43,287
KATIE: Do you feel comfortable
with that,
1966
01:27:43,326 --> 01:27:45,456
because even when
we were playing golf,
1967
01:27:45,494 --> 01:27:47,734
you gave me a pink tee,
1968
01:27:47,763 --> 01:27:51,933
and I said, 'Aren't we beyond
the pink and blue stuff?'
1969
01:27:51,967 --> 01:27:52,997
and you said, 'No.'
1970
01:27:53,035 --> 01:27:54,165
RENEE: No, well, I'm really not
1971
01:27:54,202 --> 01:27:55,572
beyond the pink and blue stuff
because...
1972
01:27:55,604 --> 01:27:56,614
KATIE: Tell me about that.
1973
01:27:56,639 --> 01:28:00,839
RENEE: To me,
the idea of a binary
1974
01:28:00,876 --> 01:28:05,346
is what I think the world is,
it's the spice of life,
1975
01:28:05,381 --> 01:28:07,451
that's what makes us keep going.
1976
01:28:07,483 --> 01:28:10,293
And I think that it's appealing,
and I like it.
1977
01:28:10,319 --> 01:28:12,459
And I know that
there are in-betweens,
1978
01:28:12,488 --> 01:28:16,288
and I know that there are
all kinds of percentages
1979
01:28:16,325 --> 01:28:17,355
that people are.
1980
01:28:17,393 --> 01:28:18,693
And that's fine.
1981
01:28:18,727 --> 01:28:21,757
But basically, the fact is
1982
01:28:21,797 --> 01:28:25,427
we are born with either
two chromosomes,
1983
01:28:25,468 --> 01:28:27,198
or an X and a Y,
1984
01:28:27,235 --> 01:28:29,705
and you can't undo that.
1985
01:28:29,738 --> 01:28:31,868
HARI: Well, you can't
undo chromosomes,
1986
01:28:31,907 --> 01:28:34,037
but in terms of the binary,
you know,
1987
01:28:34,076 --> 01:28:36,036
you're saying you're comfortable
with the binary
1988
01:28:36,078 --> 01:28:37,308
and you like the binary,
1989
01:28:37,346 --> 01:28:41,476
but, you know, you know,
you're my trans elder,
1990
01:28:41,517 --> 01:28:42,687
I don't want to be insolent,
1991
01:28:42,718 --> 01:28:44,448
but isn't the binary something
1992
01:28:44,487 --> 01:28:47,217
that has caused you
a lot of pain in your life?
1993
01:28:47,255 --> 01:28:48,785
Like, if the binary
didn't exist,
1994
01:28:48,824 --> 01:28:51,534
like, would there have been
so much drama about you
1995
01:28:51,560 --> 01:28:55,230
in being outed, and you know,
so much, you know...
1996
01:28:55,263 --> 01:28:56,333
RENEE: No, none.
1997
01:28:56,365 --> 01:28:59,025
HARI: Right, so much secrecy.
1998
01:28:59,067 --> 01:29:03,907
But if the world didn't
have such a, you know,
1999
01:29:03,939 --> 01:29:09,039
pardon my French, hard-on
for, like, you know, men, women,
2000
01:29:09,077 --> 01:29:10,907
boys, girls, pink, blue,
2001
01:29:10,946 --> 01:29:15,576
like, if that fetish--
and I believe it is fetish--
2002
01:29:15,618 --> 01:29:21,218
if that didn't exist, wouldn't
your life have been easier?
2003
01:29:21,256 --> 01:29:22,256
RENEE: It wouldn't
have been life,
2004
01:29:22,290 --> 01:29:23,990
it wouldn't have been real.
2005
01:29:24,026 --> 01:29:26,086
HARI: I guess it's,
I guess it's...right.
2006
01:29:26,128 --> 01:29:29,258
Well, see, I'm still
in my idealistic early 20s.
2007
01:29:29,297 --> 01:29:30,767
RENEE: That wouldn't
have been real.
2008
01:29:30,799 --> 01:29:33,669
KATIE: So what are you hoping
the future will bring?
2009
01:29:33,702 --> 01:29:35,742
HARI:
I want a gender-chill future.
2010
01:29:35,771 --> 01:29:37,011
RENEE: There is no such a thing.
2011
01:29:37,039 --> 01:29:41,439
HARI: I want community,
a society, a world...
2012
01:29:41,477 --> 01:29:42,507
RENEE: God help us.
2013
01:29:42,545 --> 01:29:45,705
HARI: ...that just chills out.
2014
01:29:45,748 --> 01:29:46,948
RENEE: Hari, stop it.
2015
01:29:46,982 --> 01:29:50,022
HARI: About the freaking
gender thing!
2016
01:29:50,052 --> 01:29:52,622
RENEE: What you're advocating
is a utopia.
2017
01:29:52,655 --> 01:29:55,385
It doesn't and never will exist.
2018
01:29:55,424 --> 01:29:57,794
KATIE: Maybe it's just
a generational divide.
2019
01:29:57,826 --> 01:30:00,026
HARI: I think
it's a generational divide.
2020
01:30:00,062 --> 01:30:02,402
RENEE: You know, this is
education for me, too.
2021
01:30:02,431 --> 01:30:03,731
KATIE: Yeah.
2022
01:30:03,766 --> 01:30:06,096
RENEE: This is revolutionary
for me to hear her.
2023
01:30:06,134 --> 01:30:08,544
KATIE: So we're all getting
an education.
2024
01:30:08,571 --> 01:30:12,811
HARI: It's equally important
for me to hear you, too.
2025
01:30:12,841 --> 01:30:16,411
KATIE: As the sun set over
the Sleepy Hollow Country Club,
2026
01:30:16,445 --> 01:30:18,645
I realized I had finished
the back nine
2027
01:30:18,681 --> 01:30:22,991
of my quest to learn more
about this gender revolution.
2028
01:30:23,018 --> 01:30:25,818
I had traveled
all over the country
2029
01:30:25,854 --> 01:30:29,934
talking to surgeons,
scientists, and students,
2030
01:30:29,958 --> 01:30:33,158
and in the process,
got quite an education.
2031
01:30:33,195 --> 01:30:37,665
We're all a lot more complicated
than we've assumed.
2032
01:30:37,700 --> 01:30:40,000
SAM: If a person is a man and
they're attracted to women,
2033
01:30:40,035 --> 01:30:42,335
they might call themselves
straight or heterosexual.
2034
01:30:42,370 --> 01:30:44,170
KATIE: Or cisgender.
Oh, no, sorry!
2035
01:30:44,206 --> 01:30:46,676
Wrong, wrong, sorry, sorry.
2036
01:30:46,709 --> 01:30:49,479
It's a brave new world,
and for many of us,
2037
01:30:49,512 --> 01:30:52,012
it will require
some getting used to.
2038
01:30:52,047 --> 01:30:54,847
MATTHEW: I think that
radical patience
2039
01:30:54,883 --> 01:30:57,453
is so important on both ends.
2040
01:30:57,486 --> 01:30:59,416
KATIE: I heard some
amazing stories.
2041
01:30:59,454 --> 01:31:00,624
Nice.
2042
01:31:00,656 --> 01:31:02,926
Stories that are
very different from my own.
2043
01:31:02,958 --> 01:31:05,158
Do I look like the weird aunt?
2044
01:31:06,895 --> 01:31:09,795
I also met some
incredible people,
2045
01:31:09,832 --> 01:31:13,372
people living their lives,
loving their families,
2046
01:31:13,401 --> 01:31:15,141
supporting each other,
2047
01:31:15,170 --> 01:31:18,710
and paving the way
for the next generation
2048
01:31:18,741 --> 01:31:23,811
as they share their hopes
and dreams for the future.
2049
01:31:23,846 --> 01:31:26,176
BRIAN: There is change coming.
2050
01:31:26,214 --> 01:31:27,654
It is a relief.
2051
01:31:27,683 --> 01:31:28,883
PERSON: What I want to see
in the future
2052
01:31:28,917 --> 01:31:31,847
is any form of self-expression
2053
01:31:31,887 --> 01:31:34,357
being viewed
as completely normal.
2054
01:31:34,389 --> 01:31:35,789
ISAAC: I hope that
our generation
2055
01:31:35,824 --> 01:31:37,494
can help this generation
2056
01:31:37,526 --> 01:31:39,386
of elementary, middle
and high school kids
2057
01:31:39,427 --> 01:31:40,997
to be more comfortable
in their own skin.
2058
01:31:41,029 --> 01:31:42,359
KATE: And someday
we'll embrace it,
2059
01:31:42,397 --> 01:31:46,737
and hopefully we'll find
we gained a lot of happier,
2060
01:31:46,769 --> 01:31:49,969
more productive human beings
as a result.
2061
01:31:50,005 --> 01:31:51,905
SAM: I like to imagine a future
2062
01:31:51,940 --> 01:31:54,640
where we support
gender creativity.
2063
01:31:54,677 --> 01:31:57,907
BRIAN: The bus has taken off.
The world is changing.
2064
01:31:57,946 --> 01:31:58,906
GAVIN: It's moving
towards acceptance,
2065
01:31:58,947 --> 01:32:01,147
and every subsequent generation,
2066
01:32:01,183 --> 01:32:03,093
I feel gets more open-minded
and more tolerant
2067
01:32:03,118 --> 01:32:04,148
and more accepting
2068
01:32:04,186 --> 01:32:05,546
and more loving.
2069
01:32:05,588 --> 01:32:07,918
MATTHEW: This gender revolution
didn't start with us,
2070
01:32:07,956 --> 01:32:09,086
and isn't gonna end with us.
2071
01:32:09,124 --> 01:32:10,394
MICHAELA: They're forging
their own way,
2072
01:32:10,425 --> 01:32:13,055
so I call that
the gender evolution
2073
01:32:13,095 --> 01:32:14,725
rather than
the gender revolution,
2074
01:32:14,763 --> 01:32:16,903
and you ain't see nothing yet.
164204
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