All language subtitles for Take_Two

I'm sure most of you are aware of the
recent television special that claimed

to give an honest, candid, and revealing
look into the private life of one of the

world's most successful and
controversial celebrities, Michael

Jackson. The revelations were explosive.

The ratings were enormous.

But Michael has claimed that what TV
journalist Martin Bashir presented...

was a twisted and edited construction of
scandal and innuendo, not a true

representation of the interviews that
actually took place.

In the next two hours, we're gonna give
you an opportunity unprecedented in the

history of television.

We're gonna show you footage that was
never intended to be broadcast.

Tonight, the private video from
Michael's own cameras, cameras that shot

the Michael Jackson interview, the
footage you were never meant to see.

As much as I do not speak about my
family, I will right now.

For the first time, Michael's ex-wife
speaks out in public.

My kids don't call me mom because I
don't want them to.

You'll find out what really happened
during the astonishing incidents with

his children in Germany.

And I've seen people flip their kids up
in the air to somersault and catch them.

To be honest with you, I think wait
another four or five years, the kids

will come in front of a camera and they
will defend their daddy.

You'll hear about Michael's childhood.

One of the things I can see this man
tried to do, he tried to pin something

on me where I was real brutal.

You'll find out how Michael really feels
about his father.

He doesn't know this, but...

You'll hear about Michael's surgery that
the other special didn't mention.

You'll hear the truth behind Michael's
children and their disguises.

You'll go behind the rumors of the
Neverland Ranch.

And find out how those rumors have
driven a family from their home.

Gavin called me. He was crying on the
phone.

He went in gas station. The kids in gas
station, they start kidding.

Oh, you are the kids doing this with
Michael. You slept with Michael. They

ruined this kid's life.

You'll hear from the people closest to
Michael.

I've heard someone say on the television
that no one should be allowed behind

those gates at Neverland, especially the
children. They don't even know what

they're talking about.

Plus. A surprise revelation from the man
behind the Michael Jackson interviews.

There'll be a lot of controversy about
this.

It's tabloid stuff. Well, you'll be
young. I know. All tonight on the

Michael Jackson interview, the footage
you were never meant to see.

Hosted by Maury Povich.

With Mr. Brashear's full knowledge,
Michael had his own behind-the-scenes

camera documenting the major interviews.

The quality of the audio and video may
be a bit raw at times, but it will

enable you to see and hear the
interviews as they actually happen, and

will allow you, the viewing audience, to
draw your own conclusions.

And while Michael Jackson has provided
this footage to us, he has absolutely no

control over the editorial content of
this program.

But who is Martin Bashir?

And how did he get an exclusive
interview with one of the most reclusive

pop stars the world has ever known?

In 1995, this little-known British
journalist caused an uproar when his

sensational interview with Princess
Diana revealed details of her

extramarital affair.

Since then, he has scored interviews
with some of England's most notorious

newsmakers, becoming somewhat of a
celebrity himself.

Martin, a quick word for the evening
news. His interview with Jackson was, as

he put it, a request to show me the real
man. But show me everything. Make

nothing off limits.

Michael agreed.

And the first interview was scheduled
for the summer of 2002.

In these photos of one of Bashir's
interviews with Jackson, you can see the

camera that captured the footage you
were never meant to see.

It's mounted right there on the light
stand.

This is the view it was capturing at the
last interview.

And this is the shot.

From the very first interview at
Neverland.

The man adjusting the lens.

Now this is on. Okay.

Can we have silence in the house?

Yeah. Is Jackson's own documentary
cameraman.

Well, I just wanted to clarify that it
was not a secret video.

Because right now they're saying that we
were secretly videotaping him. But

that's not the truth.

She saw me, you know, hooking up the
camera.

And, you know, everybody saw the camera
out there and we were just rolling it.

We usually do documentary on every, you
know, thing that Mr. Jackson does.

Do you think that your success has
actually made people turn against you?

The bigger the star, the bigger the
target.

And the more popular I became, the more
rumors that were created, which none of

which were true.

I mean, the moment I started breaking
the all-time records of the biggest

selling albums of all time, they called
me weird overnight, strange, wacko.

You know, they said I'm a girl,
homosexual.

He wants to buy the Elephant Man bones.

He sleeps in a hyperbaric chamber. None
of that stuff is true.

All completely made up. I've seen where
you sleep. It's all a lie. I've seen

where you sleep, and it's not a
hypothetical.

I sleep in a bed.

People would be so surprised how normal
and simple we are.

Most people would have a very hard time
thinking Michael Jackson's life was

normal or simple.

Maybe it's that ranch north of Santa
Barbara, California, the 3,000 acres he

calls Neverland.

Neverland is an extraordinary, a
breathtaking, a dependent, an

exhilarating, an amazing place. I can't
gather together words to describe

Neverland. What inspired you to make a
home like this?

What inspired me? It was so easy because
it was me being myself, creating things

that I love.

And what I love, kids happen to love, or
the child that lives inside the adult.

happens to love, you know? It is so easy
because I'm just putting behind the

gates everything I never got to do when
I was a kid.

Do

you

have regrets about the way your life has
been?

Somewhat.

And what do you regret?

When I was really little, around 11 or
12, I was under contract with

Motown.

And I would have to go to the recording
studio. I had to go and make these

albums. Because the summer tour was
right around the corner.

And right across the street from the
recording studio was a ballpark.

And I could hear the kids.

You know, the roar of the crowd and
playing and catching the ball and having

fun and playing tennis.

And some of those times I so
passionately wanted to just go over

there and just play a little bit and not
go to the recording studio and sing.

Just to, you know, have some fun with
the kids.

And I couldn't.

People say, why are you always with
children?

Well, I was raised in a world with
adults.

The kids were playing in bed, sleeping.
I was up doing clubs.

I was doing club dates, 3 in the
morning.

The striptease would come on after us.

We were performing, and we did have
friends.

My brothers were my friends, but we
worked. We worked every Christmas.

On my birthday, there were very strict
local witnesses.

So I'm compensating. Nature made sure
that I compensated for the loss.

So when you come behind my gates, you'll
see amusement parks, you'll see animals,

you'll see everything I never got to do.
There's candy everywhere.

Fun. While Bashir and his crew were here
at Neverland, they got to witness what

has become an almost weekly experience.

Buckloads of children stumped in the
inner city, some orphans.

some terminally ill, but all of us
escaping their reality to spend a day at

Michael Jackson's creation.

I feel totally at home with them. I can
talk to them one-on-one because they

don't judge you.

They're not looking for anything.

They just want to have some fun.

And that's the same with myself.

And I can connect to that. I can
understand that.

And the fact that I miss that on so much
as a child.

As soon as they come in the room, for
me, the room lights up.

I like the sound it makes.

Oh, that's great.

That's great.

They're really fun.

Oh, my God, they're fun.

Didn't one of them say something funny
to you yesterday about... Yeah, one of

the boys said to me, he said, he saw all
the rides and all the amusements, and he

said, Michael Jackson, you own all of
this?

I go, yeah.

He said, you pay for all of this?

I said, yeah, I did.

And you still have money left over?

That's exactly what he said to me.

I said, yeah.

I said, yeah.

He goes, I can't believe it.

He said, I can't believe it.

That's exactly what he said.

He was amazed that I still had money I
have to look into.

We're Make-A-Wish staff members, and we
are escorting all the Wish families that

came to meet Michael.

It's just great to be a part of it and
see how happy they are.

Everything is free.

Theater, amusement park, whatever they
want to do, they can do it.

But it's not free for you. It costs you
millions of dollars. Millions a year,

yeah, millions.

But, you know, I get it all back when I
see them smile.

Peter Pan.

I've been in the house. I've seen the
statues outside the house.

Why is Peter Pan a figure of such
interest and inspiration to you?

Because Peter Pan, to me, represents
something that's very special in my

heart. You know, he represents youth,
childhood, never growing up, magic,

flying, everything I think that
children...

and wonderment and magic, what it's all
about.

And for me, I just have never, ever
grown out of loving that or thinking

that it's very special.

You don't want to grow up?

No, I am Peter Pan.

Are you not your Michael Jackson?

I'm Peter Pan, my heart.

Do you think it would be true to say
that you found friendship and

inspiration in children that you haven't
been able to find in adults?

That's absolutely the truth.

Really? Yeah.

Yeah. I haven't been betrayed or
deceived by children.

Adults have let me down. Adults have let
the world down.

What you're seeing all took place on the
day that Martin Bashir and his crew were

filming at Neverland.

You actually see him in several of the
shots being taken by Jackson's camera

crew. This was supposed to be a
documentary to tell the truth.

Everything.

I mean, who would bring somebody to his
life and open up all the way and wanted

to lie about it? You know, if you don't
want to lie about it, don't even do it.

You didn't have to do this documentary.

Nobody forced them to do this
documentary.

After a full day spent with children
from the Make-A-Wish Foundation at

Michael Jackson's Neverland Ranch, what
was Mr. Bashir's comment?

We'll quote directly from his appearance
on ABC's Primetime Thursday.

One of the most disturbing things is the
fact that a lot of disadvantaged

children go to Neverland.

It's a dangerous place for a vulnerable
child to be.

Now, I'm not saying that I saw any
evidence of Michael Jackson being

involved sexually with any children.

Quite the contrary. But what I am saying
is that children who are vulnerable

should not be going into the house of a
billionaire superstar where they sleep

in his bed.

As we said, that was the sheerest
comment heard on TV by millions of

people. But what did Bashir say to
Michael Jackson about this day at

Neverland? Let's take a look at the
footage that was captured by Michael's

camera documenting the interview.

The problem is, you see, nobody actually
comes here.

But I was here yesterday and I saw it.

And it's nothing short of a spiritually
kind thing.

I know, I know, but I've told him.

A lot of people see it. They never talk
about it. And I've said this to him. And

what I wanted to convey is those two
things.

And what we've had the privilege of
doing this week is not only talking

about the musical genius, but about what
we saw yesterday, which was incredible.

The woman you see has been Michael's
makeup artist for over 20 years.

After listening to the glowing praise
Bashir had for Michael in this

interview, she had a very hard time
believing he could call Neverland a

dangerous place for children.

It's so hard for me to imagine that
Michael opened up the

gates, not only to Neverland, but to his
heart, to Bashir.

And I really thought...

That first year, got it.

It's getting worse.

He goes, I mean, I can't tell you. I
don't like this.

He never speaks when he talks about
this.

But when he's talking about the things
that he's passionate about,

it's obvious that he's in his eye.

People usually don't ask these
questions.

And if they do, they don't make it in
the papers. They don't make it.

On the interviews, it's all the negative
stuff.

And they cut questions out.

That's why he doesn't even do interviews
anymore.

They twist everything.

From the moment I met him, I mean, I
remember, how can people be so cool? I

read an article the other time, and he
goes, Well,

we ain't doing that here.

Now, what could make an award-winning
journalist?

have such a different opinion between
what he would say on the air and what he

would say in the interview footage not
included in his special.

It appears that after Mr. Bashir had
called cut for his own camera crew, he

may well have forgotten that Michael's
camera was still recording his every

word, a possibility supported by a
written request from both him and the

producers of his special to make
Michael's footage available for their

review.

The different opinion expressed by Mr.
Bashir regarding the safety of the

underprivileged children who visit
Neverland is only the first of several

contradictory moments captured on tape,
all of which you will see and hear on

this program.

When we come back, an exclusive
interview with Michael's ex-wife.

As much as I do not speak about my
family, I will.

Right now.

Michael makes a long overdue confession.

You had sex with Debbie.

I know that's difficult for me to say
because you're so embarrassed.

But you actually had sex with her. You
can see that.

And Debbie tells us about the result.

And then his son was born.

And look on his face.

Plus, a very surprising revelation from
Michael's private cameras.

All when we return to the Michael
Jackson interview, the footage you were

never meant to see.

In addition to the never-before-seen
footage from Martin Bashir's interviews,

we have also been allowed unprecedented
interviews with some of the people

closest to Michael Jackson, people who
have turned down very lucrative offers

to tell the inside story of life behind
the Neverland Gate.

They break their silence for the first
time, and not for money.

No one interviewed for this show
received any payment to tell their

story. Their reason for appearing here
is to tell the truth.

as they see it.

And the person who has most avoided the
glare of the spotlight is the person who

was perhaps the closest to Michael, the
woman who was his wife and the mother of

his first two children, Debbie Rowe.

What's happened in the past is things
have been taken out of context, twisted

around.

If I can help straighten it out, as much
as I do not speak about my family, I

will.

Right now.

When I was talking to Prince one day, he
said to me that he didn't have a mother.

Yeah, I said, Prince, where's your
mummy? And he said, I haven't got a

mother.

Did you tell him to say that?

What do you think he means when he said,
I haven't got a mother?

My kids don't call me mum because I
don't want them to.

They're Michael's children. It's not
that they're not my children, but I had

them because I wanted him to be a
father.

I believe that there are people who
should be parents, and he's one of them.

And he is such a fabulous man and such a
good friend, and he's always been there

for me, always, from the day I met him.

I could do something for him, and this
is what I wanted to do.

Most people think Michael and Debbie's
relationship was very short-term.

Actually, they met over 22 years ago.

Was it intense, ma'am? No.

No, it was over time.

It was over time. I think it was 18
years, 17, 18 years

that I knew him when I had Prince.

In that time, they've gone on some very
unusual outings, often with Michael in

disguise.

Yeah, he'd call, what are you doing?
Nothing, what are you doing?

Want to go to the video? Yeah.

You know, we'd sneak out without
security.

We got caught.

God, this is like a Beatles film. We're
getting chased by people.

We'd have to call security and bail us
out.

But, yeah, we'd go out and do stuff.

So you'd go out to the ranch. Sneak him
into premieres and things.

Yeah, we had a good time. We had a good
time. He's always a lot of fun.

When did Michael start talking about
wanting to have kids?

Was this when he was still with Lisa
Marie?

No, they had broken up.

And I was trying to console him because
he was really upset.

And he was upset that he really wanted
to be a dad. And I said, so be a dad.

And he looked at me puzzled.

And I said, let me do this.

I want to do this.

You've been so good to me. You're such a
great friend. Please let me do this.

I said, you need to be a dad.

I want to do this.

And I nagged him into it,

if you will.

She's a wonderful person. She knew that
Michael Jackson loves children.

Yeah. And she knew that Michael Jackson
wanted children. That's why.

And she was... You need to be a daddy.

Right.

She said you needed to be a daddy.

More than she needed to be a mother.

Yeah. And she wanted to do that for me
at the present.

And if you're talking about romance,
maybe then, if you want to have a

marker, if that makes you...

the rest of america feel that they need
a marker and you could probably use that

once debbie's pregnancy became common
knowledge the tabloid world had one

burning question did they or didn't they
the first two crystal parents from

debbie which was natural conception you
you had sex with debbie yes i know

that's difficult for you for me to say
because you're so embarrassed but you

you actually had sex with her you can
see that yes

From the first moment Debbie learned she
was pregnant, Michael warned her of what

was to come.

He said, you don't know what they can
do.

And I said, oh, Michael, come on.

We're having a baby. Normal people have
babies. We're having a baby.

Come on.

How can that be weird? We're having a
kid.

If anything, that's beautiful. That's
wonderful. That's great.

Why was I wrong?

I found out at one point a picture of me
pregnant was worth half a million

dollars.

To who and why?

Have they never ever seen someone
pregnant before?

Am I supposed to look different pregnant
because it's Michael's baby than someone

else? As you've heard, the decision to
have Michael's child was easy for

Debbie. The actual birth was another
matter.

And we were very excited.

Michael was definitely more excited than
I was.

You know, he was so excited when we had
a contraction.

And he was there.

We had videos. We had music, you know.

And it was long. It was 23 hours.

And I had a very colorful language.

And every time I went to say something,
Michael would cut me off with, shoot.

Or fudge. Oh, he doesn't like cursing.
Or he didn't think it was necessary when

there were other words he would do.

But he was there the whole time, held my
hand,

stroked my head.

I think I puked once, and I was so
embarrassed. And he was like, stop.

You're fine.

This is beautiful. This is wonderful. I
said, I'm going to die.

No, you're not going to die. This is
great.

Okay, we're crowning, you know, and
Michael, bam, he's right there.

And he goes, oh, my God, this is so
beautiful.

Now, having come from a medical
background, there is no way blood and

stuff, there's no way.

Sorry, I don't come from that
background.

It's like, Michael, it can't be that
beautiful.

He was welling up.

And then his son was born.

And the look on his face.

Talk amongst yourselves.

I'd never seen him that happy.

And that's what made it wonderful for
me, was

to see the look on his face.

The birth of Prince Michael was soon
followed.

By a sister, Paris.

Yeah, we were kind of told we should
wait.

You know, I guess there's a waiting, a
suggested waiting time.

But I was flying to Paris all the time.
That's actually how she got her name.

That's where she was conceived.

Do you not think, though, that your
children would benefit from contact with

their mother?

No, but she doesn't.

It's private information. She doesn't.

She can't handle it.

She can't handle her own children.

Yes, I can't reveal that because I don't
want to make anybody upset.

While Michael may seem reluctant to
discuss Debbie's absence from their

children, Debbie had no reluctance
whatsoever.

People don't understand that. And they
want a traditional, they think that

something has to be traditional.

And they have this notion of beaver
cleaver.

That wasn't reality in the 50s, and
that's not reality in the 21st century.

We have a nontraditional family, and if
it makes people uncomfortable,

it's a shame that they're not more open.

We are a family unit.

Michael and I will always be connected
with the kids.

I will always be there for him. I will
always be there for the children.

And people make remarks, oh, I can't
believe she left her children.

Left them? I left my children?

I did not leave my children. My children
are with their father.

Where they're supposed to be.

So, this mother carries both children
for nine months in her

body. And she gives birth to them. And
she prefers...

that they have nothing to do with her.

Split up because I... They got to a
point where I couldn't deal with it. I

couldn't deal with the fact... I
couldn't go to the grocery store.

For two reasons. One, I'd get followed.

Two, I'd have to look at crap on the
newsstands that are right at the

register as you go out that wasn't true.

You know?

I wasn't used to it.

I like doing things for myself.

Michael's more than generous. He said,
we don't have to go to the grocery

store. But I want to.

I really want to.

I want to go back to what I can go back
to.

That was what I was used to. That's
where I'm comfortable.

Doing this is very uncomfortable for me.

Talking about these things is extremely
uncomfortable for me.

But it's hard when you're an
entertainer, you know. It's hard to have

a marriage.

I mean, one day I'll be married again,
but it's too soon. I went through two

tough courses.

So I'm married to my fans.

I'm married to God. I'm married to my
children.

I'm married to life.

Coming up, the notorious incident that
had the whole world talking.

It happened for like two seconds, but
when it gets on the news, it's slowing

down.

Michael's mother reveals what it was
like to grow up in the Jackson 5.

Joseph didn't beat him or anything like
that. We just disciplined him out of

love. And we find out why Bubbles had to
go.

Because kids, they get to an age, like
teenage kids do, where they want to

challenge their parents.

All when we return to the Michael
Jackson interview.

The footage you were never meant to see.

When Martin Bashir arrived to film
Michael and his children, Bashir was

immediately confronted with one of the
major worries of celebrity parents, the

horrible danger of kidnapping.

Consequently... As a security measure,
public appearances by Michael's children

require that their faces be hidden
behind masks or veils.

Because you don't let anybody see the
children. I don't want a Lindbergh baby.

Nobody took Lindbergh baby, Charles
Lindbergh baby, took him in the forest

and burned him to death.

Okay, so I don't want that to happen to
my children.

Bashir's repeated questioning failed to
establish one important fact, whose idea

it was to wear them.

I obviously have some influence, as
their faces are still covered.

That was my request, not his.

Michael's very proud of his children.

I'm the one who's terrified.

I'm the one who's seen the notes that
someone's going to take his children.

They're not.

They're not.

Whatever, whatever can be done. They're
not. There's nothing more terrifying

than looking at a piece of paper that
says, I'm taking them.

And I said, you know what?

I wore a scarf. No big deal.

Pretend it's Halloween.

I don't want people seeing that the
press are very mean.

I don't want them to grow up
psychologically.

Crazy because of the evil things they
could say to them.

I want them to be normal.

That makes sense, doesn't it?

Yeah. Right? It does.

It does.

And I'm sure at some point he will say,
you know, to the children,

do you want to wear the scarf?

I will have immediate heart failure, you
know, but, you know, he's not going to

make his children do something they
don't want to do.

He's not that kind of a parent.

Not at all.

And I truly don't see why everybody

focuses on that.

I mean, is it a fashion statement?

Are the scarves not matching?

You know, we'll work on it.

While some people may have a hard time
with the intense security measures

Michael and his family have to follow,

There was one particular occurrence in
Germany that had many people questioning

his children's safety Take

for example what happened in Germany
where there was a huge

outcry And you suffered a great deal of
negative comment in the press Was

there no one in your group who said
Michael?

Even though you're not going to damage
your child, and you would never harm

your child, but Michael, if you dangle
blanket over a balcony, you are going to

be severely criticized.

Was there no one in the room who would
say, Michael, don't do it?

And they didn't say no?

No, because I was holding that baby
strong, hard, tight.

No, that's exactly what I'm saying,
though. And I know better.

And I've seen people that flip their
kids up in the air, do somersaults and

catch them.

And, you know, I get caught for the
moment. It's holding on tight.

Give away.

And, uh, but this is in two seconds, but
when it gets on the news, we slow it

down. They don't show the crowd.

They're making me look like I'm this
eccentric idiot dangling his baby over a

balcony like a nut.

I think the media took.

Took it and ran like they do everything
else.

It's just like oh my god. Oh my god
dropping the baby, please Please they

blew it up into something. It's not that
we know about so Misunderstood explain

it. What don't we know about what should
we know about him? We don't know all

right. I'll tell you from the very
beginning good He had such a grip on

that child and if you look at it again
He's got that child so

tightly held under the armpits.

I'm showing it now.

Yeah, he's got it pretty tight under his
arm.

Governance was up there, security was up
there, other people. I took my other

children up there and did the same
thing.

Like I said before, he's very proud of
his children.

You know? And to listen to his fans all
night long.

They're so adoring and so loving and
loyal.

And they'll be there all night.

And they wanted to see the little one.
And he showed them the little one.

Nothing inappropriate.

May not have been the best thing he's
ever done in his life.

But certainly, I think it was made too
big a deal of.

In spite of his admission that he was
not happy about the incident, it still

did not seem as troubling to Michael as
it did to people around the world. A

point Martin Bashir made both in his TV
special and in his comments on primetime

Thursday after the show aired.

He said that they are restricted. They
are overly protected.

I was angry at the way his children were
made to suffer.

What he said about Michael's parenting
skills in the footage that was not aired

appears to paint an extremely different
picture. And we must stress, what you're

about to see and hear happened during
Bashir's final interview with Michael

long after the incident with the baby on
the Berlin hotel balcony.

One of the things that I noticed about
you over the last year is your

relationship with your children.

And I have to say to you, and I didn't
know you before, and you haven't put on

a front, your relationship with your
children is spectacular.

Hello.

And in fact, it almost makes me weep
when I see you with them, because your

interaction with them is just so
natural, so loving, so caring.

And everybody who ever comes into
contact with you knows that.

I'm crazy about them.

And I tell them, I look into their eyes
every day. I make sure I do it. I say,

look at me. I love you very much.

What they actually say to you is they
love you, and you say, I love you more.

That's what you say every single time.

That's your phrase, and I've heard it.
I've heard it once. I've heard it a

million times.

Yeah, and they say such sweet things
sometimes.

And I didn't tell them to say it.

They see it all the time. A principal
can say, Daddy, thank you for giving me

a brother.

All the time.

You know, parents will say that too.
Thank you for giving us a brother.

You know, I mean, and I would like to
have more children.

You know what? If he called me tonight
and said, let's have five more, in a

heartbeat. You would do it again. In a
heartbeat.

In a heartbeat. Now, what could have
persuaded?

one of the world's most reclusive
superstars, to grant an interviewer and

a camera crew entrance into his life.

Now, according to Jackson, it was to
answer many of the important questions

that tabloids and fans have been
speculating about for years.

As you've seen, not all of those
important answers made it on the air.

And as for the not-so-earth-shaking
ones, well, they were edited out, too,

like the whereabouts.

of Mr.

Jackson's former constant companion.

Where is Bubbles now?

Bubbles is, he's with a caretaker with
like 40 to 50 other chimps,

because chimps, they get to an age, like
teenage kids do, where they want to

challenge their parents.

Like if your father tells you to do
something, you go, why?

Why do I have to do it, Dad?

And chimps are very much like that, too.
They'll challenge you.

And it can become dangerous in a way.

And if they get angry with you and
decide to take you on, it's no match. I

mean, they're very, very strong.

They can take your finger off. They're
very powerful.

But while Bubbles was living at
Neverland, Bubbles, the other animals,

and Michael were virtually inseparable.

Many people made fun of me with my
animals, you know.

If I come home from a hard day at the
studio and I come home to my deer,

or my chimps, and I can hug them, and
they don't ask you anything, they don't

complain, you know, they don't gossip.

They just want a hug and some love, and
get on with it. You know, where's the

pizza? Whip out the ice cream. Because
the chimps, they love snacks.

And, you know, they run around, and they
help me clean the room, and they help me

fix up things, you know, and their DNA
is literally identical to ours, if you

look in the microscope.

And they're amazing.

Chimps would help you clean the house?
Yeah, yeah. They help me clean up my

room. They help me dust.

They do windows.

They brush the toilet after they use the
bathroom.

You let the chimps use your own
bathroom? Sure, yeah, of course.

Bubbles would go himself.

And he'd sit at the table and he'd pick
up his spoon and his fork and he'd eat

and he's very polite.

And he's very intelligent.

While in Berlin with Jackson, Martin
Bashir was invited to accompany Michael

and his two children on a trip to the
zoo.

But because someone had evidently tipped
off the press, the paparazzi were out in

force, causing chaos and a potentially
dangerous situation for the Jackson

family.

Do you know it took us three and a half
hours to get in and out?

and we spent four minutes in front of
the gorillas.

It was chaos, Mike. I was in the middle
of it. Our cameraman fell over.

And at one point, Prince got hurt by
someone's umbrella.

Do you really think it was worth the
pain of three and a half hours for four

minutes in front of the gorillas?

I didn't know that was going to happen
like that.

As you've seen and heard from Michael's
behind-the-scenes camera of Bashir's

interview, Bashir seems to express a
genuine concern for the welfare of

Michael's children and raises the
question as to Michael's apparent lapse

of parental judgment.

Bashir comments, it was no kind of trip
for two young children, and everyone

could see it but Jackson himself.

But what Bashir doesn't include is
Michael's explanation.

that Michael was informed that the zoo
would be closed during his visit.

I go to the zoo all the time.

I go usually when they close it down.

And they told us this would be closed
down. And they didn't. They left the

gates open and vans and people started
pouring in.

In fact, what the owner said, because I
was there, he actually said that his

view was at the end of the normal
opening hour, he would have closed the

zoo and then just opened it for you and
your family.

But you decided not to go then. You
wanted to go in the day rather than...

It's not true.

Is that not true?

It's not true. That was what he said. I
don't want to go in the day. I have a

problem with the sun.

Well, it was winter in Germany, so it
wasn't... Nighttime would have been much

cooler. Yeah.

But wouldn't it have been better to have
gone at night? Yeah.

So why didn't you?

I never knew that was the proposal.

I thought we had a slot and that was it.

This was like just a misunderstanding
from the zoo.

Park and, you know, Michael's people,
and they thought the zoo was going to be

closed, but it wasn't.

But that whole thing was not a big deal.

I mean, he goes through that all the
time.

Coming up, Michael's video cameras
capture a very revealing moment.

But it's so quick to call you strange
and weird.

It's almost as if you're forced to be
different.

Michael's father reacts to Bashir's
special.

Well, one of the things that...

I can see this man tried to do. He tried
to pin something on me where I was real

brutal. What caused the surgery the
other special didn't tell you about?

He was so badly burnt on the top of his
head. The whole top of his head caught

fire right in front of my eyes. The
devastating disease that Michael claims

turned him porcelain white.

I was putting on cream to make myself
lighter. That's not true. I didn't light

it. and friends of Michael who were
forced to leave their home.

All when the Michael Jackson interview,
the footage you were never meant to see,

continued.

We'd like to remind you that while
Michael Jackson provided much of the

footage you are seeing tonight, he has
absolutely no editorial control over the

content of this program.

In the past hour, you've seen a British
journalist ask some tough questions.

What hurts you most?

When they lie.

They lie.

They complete lie.

And some tougher questions.

You had sex with Debbie? Yes.

I know that's difficult for me to say
because you're so embarrassed.

You're about to hear Michael Jackson's
family rally around him, voicing their

support. They can go and talk to these
children all they want. They're not

going to find anything. What they need
to do is leave him alone.

And voicing their disagreement.

I hear Michael saying that he's lonely.

Back in those days, Michael had his
brothers. He had all his brothers to

play with.

You've seen Michael's ex-wife come
forward for the first time with

expressions of emotion.

I've never seen him that happy.

And that's what made it wonderful for
me.

And expressions of strength.

I did not leave my children. My children
are with their father, where they're

supposed to be.

But most of all, you've seen Michael
Jackson's own private cameras catch the

good. I think God out there is something
between the children.

The bad.

If you dangle blanket over a balcony,
you are going to be severely criticized.

The strange.

You let the chimps use your own
bathroom? Sure, yeah, of course.

Bubbles will go in itself.

And the strangely human.

I am Peter Pan.

Are you not your Michael Jackson?

I'm Peter Pan, my heart.

But what you've seen so far is only the
beginning.

of the Michael Jackson interview, the
footage you were never meant to see.

In

addition

to revisiting the interviews with
Michael Jackson that were contained in

the ABC special, we've also asked
members of the Jackson family to

comment. on the information that the
special chose to include.

While the Jacksons are a very supportive
family, not all of what they have to say

is in complete agreement with Michael.
And many of the comments you'll hear

have never been revealed publicly until
now.

We're trying to get above all of this,
the way of being united together. We

don't like what some of the things are
being said out there, but when you're

number one out there all over the world,
you're...

Get those kind of pot shots at you at
all times.

You've been so successful, and you've
amassed so much wealth, you never need

to work again.

And yet you don't seem to be able to
enjoy it.

It seems that you're restricted somehow.

I enjoy it to my children.

But I'm talking about you.

You just don't seem to enjoy it.

Enjoy what?

Enjoy your success. Enjoy your work.

It's hard to... I can enjoy it behind my
gaze.

But I can't go out and enjoy it because
it becomes work all over again.

Working has been Michael's life from the
time he was five years old.

Oh, darling, I was blind to let you go.

And as we've already seen, missing out
on his childhood continues to affect him

to this very day.

You often seem very lonely.

Is that true?

I used to be very lonely.

Painful. I had no idea.

I used to walk the streets looking for
people to talk to.

I hear Micah saying that he's lonely.

But back in those days, Micah had his
brothers. He had all his brothers to

play with.

And so, you know.

And the kids that he brought all the
candy around, he'd buy so much candy and

the kids would be in a circle, standing
around in a circle.

And they'd all be eating candy off the
allowance I had given him.

But one thing he enjoyed was to see
those kids eating that candy and he'd be

laughing. Once you're surrounded by your
family, by musicians, by people wanting

to be your friend, you were an
international superstar.

How can you say you had no friends?

Because those people...

spoke to me on a language on another
level that was musical, that was

entertainment, but to get away from
that, to separate oneself from that, and

to try to discover the fun things about
life.

When do you feel that?

When do I feel alone?

I mean, I can be, you know, usually in
hotels.

Thousands of friends chanting, you're
out in the street, moving sleeping bags,

and you're chanting, and they love you
and everything, and you can't get out,

you feel trapped inside, and you just
cry, and you feel alone, you know?

And there's all that love out there, but
you really do feel trapped and alone,

that you can't get out. And if you go to
a bookstore, if you go out, if you go to

a club, which I don't like clubs, you
know,

Every book you buy, they wonder, why are
you buying this? Why is Michael Jackson

buying this?

Why is he reading this?

Or you go to the club. As soon as you go
in there, every song is my song, as if I

want to hear my music.

And everybody starts chanting for me to
dance.

So it becomes a show all over again. So
you can't go anywhere.

So wherever you go, you know.

That's not much of a life, is it? I
know. It's difficult.

And I don't want to complain like I'm
complaining because it comes with the

territory, but I don't think people
understand the other side that comes

with it. So they're so quick to call you
strange and weird, but it's almost as if

you're forced to be different because
it's not normal life, you know?

I can do the normal things, go to the
store and buy a piece of bread, a piece

of candy or something. He can't do that.

So that would cause you to become a
recluse or to sort of be withdrawn.

Do you not sometimes wish that you could
go to the local store and buy yourself

some food and come back? Of course. I
want to go to the market, like one of

those markets, and take one of those
carts and throw some food in there and

go down the aisle.

I would love to do that.

Can you do that?

No. Of course not.

Of course not.

I tried in the...

The whole place stops.

Everybody's chanting and getting an
autograph.

It's hard.

It doesn't work.

That's why I love putting on disguises.
One of the disguises Michael would wear

in public was from his music video,
Ghost, a makeup process that took

several hours and would turn him into a
completely unrecognizable and very large

white man.

I'd sit on a bench at Disneyland on
Thanksgiving.

I sit there and I love it. I love
watching people, studying people's

characters. That's what I like. I like
going inside.

That's sending performance.

You can tell right away when an artist,
you can read on her face when she's

dancing, she's counting one and two and
three and four and five and six and six.

But when you, that's the wrong concept
for dance.

Dancing is about feeling, not about
thinking. So when they count, they're

thinking. To feel, become the bass,
become the drums, become the guitar, the

drums. You become a oneness, you know?

That's very important, but that's real.

But that's Michael Jackson talking as a
performer.

But that's not Michael Jackson the
person.

One of the most compelling and revealing
lines of questioning that Martin Bashir

pursued had to do with the strict
discipline that Michael and his brothers

endured at the hands of their fathers.

Unfortunately, this is footage that Mr.
Bashir and his producers have not

allowed us to show you.

But we can tell you that it was a very
emotional description of beatings with

belts and the cords from irons.

You remember when you said to me that
you just wanted to run away from your

father? I did.

I used to hide.

Well, one of the things I can see this
man tried to do, he tried to pin

something on me where I was real brutal.

And raising these guys, Jermaine and all
the rest of them, they all got

whippings.

They didn't get no beatings, you know.
They got a reference.

We were disciplined in the way in which
he knew.

And during that time, all children and
parents at the time, with their kids, we

had to be in before the lights were on
at night, and we had to ask for things.

And I thought it was great because it
allowed us to become what we became.

We never got on drugs. We never got in
trouble.

And I see the difference from my
upbringing as when I came to California

and friends as I went to school with how
they would curse the parents out and

slam the door and disrespect them.
Joseph didn't beat them or anything like

that. We just disciplined them out of
love. And the Bible says if you love a

child, you will discipline them.

The discussion of the strict discipline
and verbal abuse by Michael's father.

went on for almost eight minutes, and
Mr. Beshear's finished special.

But what he did not include was a short
but very revealing comment from Michael

about his father.

He did.

I don't think how he hurt me when he was
little, but he's a genius. The man is a

genius. At the same time, he was a
genius.

He really is.

But Michael, he injured you when you
were a child.

Yeah, but look what came out of it.

Well, maybe I wouldn't have the
infection for the kids that I have today

and wanted to help them.

Without a doubt, one of the most
controversial topics of Michael

Jackson's life is his relationship with
children. The scandals and rumors

surrounding allegations made against
Jackson are the subject of seemingly

endless speculation.

As we told you before, Michael Jackson
has no editorial control over the

content of this program.

What you see and hear is intended to be
an unbiased presentation that allows you

to draw your own conclusions.

Some years ago,

You yourself were about to embark on a
tour and allegations were made about you

and children.

What about 1993? What happened? What was
Michael Jackson doing?

He would never

hurt a child. Never.

It's not in him.

It's... No way.

He would never do anything inappropriate
with a child.

It's the furthest thing from his mind.

When those allegations came in 93, I
think it was, he

was devastated.

I mean, talk about going for the
jugular.

At every opportunity, the media has
dissected and manipulated these

allegations to reach their own
conclusions.

I ask all of you to wait and hear the
truth before you label or condemn me.

I watched Michael after they accused him
of that child molestation.

But at first he was a little lonely and
all, but he never stopped because he

knew it wasn't the truth.

And he never stopped loving children.

No, that's what I admire about him. He
keeps going.

He's not going to give up.

And he's going to still give to all of
us. I just know it.

And Brashears will come and go.

You know?

Michael will live forever.

Apparently, there's some confusion with
sleeping in beds.

My favorite thing to do is to sit in bed
and watch TV.

If you're coming over, take your shoes
off, get on the bed, or watch the TV.

Michael was never indicted. He was never
charged. He was never anything.

They came in this house, right, and they
tore this house apart.

They went in my mother's safe.

They tore it up, and they went in my
mother's hyperpressure pills, and they

were looking at, I mean, just what were
they looking for? They were trying and

trying to try to get some crap on
Michael that was not true.

What hurts you most?

When they lie.

They lie.

They complete lies.

I mean, it hurts.

And it hurts me because I know there's
children out there who have to hear that

crap. Why do people do that when all you
have done is brought

some of the most beautiful music, most
beautiful popular music that many of us

have ever heard?

Why do people want to judge you if all
you've done is been an artist and

brought wonderful music?

People become jealous.

It hurts to be misunderstood.

No matter how much you try to put people
on track, there will still be some

judgment that is so far from the truth.

Following the broadcast of Mr. Beshear's
special, the speculation about what went

on in Jackson's private life was once
again headline news, primarily due to

the story of Gavin, a young man who had
reportedly been dying of cancer.

Gavin was somebody who was diagnosed
with cancer.

Doctors gave him, I think, three weeks
or one month to live.

One of his last wishes was to meet
Michael, a request fulfilled through Los

Angeles businessman Jamie Masada.

Then he said to me, he said, under his
breath, he said, I want to meet Michael

Jackson. At that point, I didn't know
Michael Jackson. And I just came out of

the room, I started crying.

I didn't know what to do.

I called Neverland. I said, is there any
way you can get a chance to call the

kid? They're not coming next day. And I
said, Gavin, he had a little smile on

his face.

I said, Gavin, what's going on? He said,
Michael, call me.

Gavin and his family formed an immediate
bond with Jackson, creating an

atmosphere that many believe played a
large part in Gavin's recovery.

You know, two and a half years ago, the
doctor, they said, two more weeks, he's

dead.

Now he's alive.

His appearance on the Bashir special
showed a seemingly healthy and happy

young man, clearly very fond of Jackson.
And while Mr. Bashir did touch on

Gavin's amazing recovery, many believe
that the real focus was on Michael's

relationship with the young man,
especially the revelation that they had

spent the night in the same room.

The thing that upsets me right now, the
reason I'm giving you the interview,

because Gavin called me, he was crying
on the phone.

He went in gas station. The kid in gas
station, they start kidding.

Oh, you are the kid doing this with
Michael. You slept with Michael.

It's horrible to do to a kid. This kid
been through life. He been through

horrible life so far. Since Mr. Bashir's
documentary aired, Gavin and his mother

have gone into seclusion after being
bombarded by requests for interviews

from tabloids around the world.

This statement released to the press by
Gavin's mother says, I'm appalled at the

way in which my son has been exploited
by Martin Bashir.

The relationship that Michael has with
my three children is a beautiful, loving

father, sons, and daughter one.

To my children and me, Michael is a part
of our family. In addition, she is

considering action against Mr. Bashir
for including Gavin in his special

without parental consent.

It can only take the lies for so long.

And I've reached my limit.

And that's why I'm doing this.

I'm not here to defend my boss.

I'm here to tell the truth.

I didn't really know how you behave with
the people who come to the

ramps and come to your home.

I hadn't seen it.

And you were the most generous person.

But I looked around here yesterday.

And some of the people really
appreciated it.

But others were greedy.

Others couldn't help themselves.

Do you sometimes despair of human
nature?

Yes.

One of the topics repeatedly brought up
in Martin Bashir's interview is the same

one that has been the subject of
speculation by countless tabloids, talk

shows, and comic monologues for over 20
years.

Michael Jackson's changing appearance.

Having surgery or changes or whatever,
cosmetic surgery or anything

like that, people have that sort of
thing in this country all the time. All

the time.

People go on a weekly basis to have
things changed.

And all celebrities, most movies die,
you know.

So why is it such an issue that you do
that?

But the fact that they said I...

Like I'm overly obsessed with it. It's
not true.

The things they've said that I've done
are not true.

I haven't had my eyes done. I haven't
had my cheekbones done.

I haven't had my lips done.

I haven't had my tan done.

That's a lie.

In the final interview eight months
later, Martin Bashir is still doggedly

pursuing rumors of Michael's plastic
surgery.

An area of his life Bashir said he felt
Michael had been less than honest about.

Yeah, but even the shape of your face
has changed.

Do

you

think that people do go too far with
plastic surgery, generally?

Do you think it's become... So why are
you so defensive when people say Mick

Jagger's had one?

Paul McCartney may have had one. Oh,
Michael Jackson had one.

They don't do it that way. What do they
do? They just pick on me like I'm the

only one that does it. That's why.

So if people said, well, actually,
Michael's the same as everyone else,

then it wouldn't upset you so much. It
would upset me so much.

You know, if you want to have a
facelift, you have a facelift. Yeah, if

it makes you happy.

Regardless of your opinion about the
extent of Michael's plastic surgery, one

fact is clear.

Martin Bashir's TV special made only
passing reference to one of the most

noticeable differences in Michael's
appearance.

Bashir quoted people as saying that when
Michael Jackson was a boy, he was a

black kid.

And now as an adult, he looks like a
white man.

Which was a rumor. They said I was
putting on cream to make myself lighter.

That's not true. I have vitiligo. You
have a condition.

Vitiligo is a medical condition that
Jackson claims has afflicted him for

more than 20 years.

This disfiguring skin disease affects
nearly 2% of the world's population and

strips all pigmentation from the skin.
The result is not just pale, but

porcelain white.

The beginning of the vitiligo happened,
started happening relatively early.

You know, he even was trying to hide it
from me.

He tried to hide it for quite a while.
You know, he'd always try to cover with

makeup and even out his skin tone and
everything until it just...

got so extensive. I mean, it's all over
his body.

We were always trying to hide it and
cover it for the longest time until he

just had to tell Oprah and tell the
world, listen, I'm not trying to be

white. I have a skin disease.

The loss of pigment exposes vitiligo
sufferers to great risk of skin cancer,

requiring constant shade from the sun
and thick makeup or sunblock to lessen

the exposure.

You know, in the beginning, I tried to
cover the light spots to the darkest

part of his skin, but then it became so
extensive that we had to go with the

lighter part of his skin because his
whole body was reacting. He'd have to be

in complete, full body makeup every inch
of his body.

So it was easier to make the transition
to him being to the lighter shade that

he is.

But for Michael, one of the most painful
side effects of vitiligo is the reminder

of the earlier skin trauma that
humiliated him as a child.

You talked about how when you went
through adolescence, you had a terrible

time. And in fact, I had a look at some
pictures of you.

During that period.

And you did have a lot of spots.

Yeah.

Yeah. And being shy as I am and was,
it's even worse.

It's terrible. It's like a disease.

Perhaps the most startling omission
regarding Michael's history of plastic

surgery came during a discussion of the
procedures that Michael admits to

having.

You're saying you've only ever had one
piece of surgery on your nose?

Two. You've had two?

This is where the TV show stops.

But had they included Michael's answer
from just ten seconds earlier, they

would have allowed him to remind us of a
serious injury that severely affected

his appearance.

No, no, no. I was severely burned. Yeah.

But apart from having that surgery
because of obviously the injury of the

fire.

January 27, 1984.

Michael was shooting a commercial that
attempted to duplicate a concert

performance.

During the last take, a planned
pyrotechnic explosion went wrong and

ignited Michael's hair on fire.

He was so badly burned.

On the top of his head caught fire right
in front of my eyes.

And I couldn't do anything about it. I
couldn't get to him on time.

But Miko, Marlon Brando's son, was able
to push away the barricades and jump

on him and put out the fire with his
bare hands.

He will have nursing and medical
personnel on call 24 hours a day.

Due to his very excellent health and his
very strong personal and religious

commitments, he will have as excellent a
recovery as is possible.

Michael was rushed to the hospital,
where he was treated for second and

third degree burns.

He later underwent skin graft surgery in
an attempt to repair the damage.

But as we noted, as severe as this
incident was, it was completely ignored

by Bashir.

You've done nothing to your cheek?

Uh, no, no, no.

These cheekbones?

Yeah. Oh.

You haven't had any inserts?

No.

My father had... What about your dental?

Can we get on with plastic surgery,
garbage?

It's tabloid stuff. Well... You'll be
young. I know. Well, I know the problem

is... It's tabloid. When we return,
we'll take another look at some of the

answers that were never heard.

They call me weird overnight.

strange, wacko, you know, they said I'm
a girl, homosexual,

he wants to bite elephant man bones, he
sleeps in a hyperbaric chamber. None of

that stuff is true.

And some of the differences in opinion.

So you're happy you did it now?

Yeah, because I've shared... Even though
you've been attacked, even though people

in America say you shouldn't look after
your own children?

Yeah, but a lot of people said, leave
him alone, shut the hell up.

All caught on Michael Jackson's own
camera.

When we return to the Michael Jackson
interview, the footage you were never

meant to see.

One of the basic qualities of respected
journalism is objectivity.

Now, as you may have heard in several
recent news stories, one of Michael

Jackson's prime complaints about the
reporting featured in Martin Bashir's

documentary and subsequent interviews
with the press was his lack of

objectivity. As we've already seen, some
of Mr. Bashir's comments that made the

air appear to be quite different than
opinions he expressed in Jackson's

behind-the-scenes footage.

About Michael's ranch, Mr. Bashir's
on-air comment was...

One of the most disturbing things is the
fact that a lot of disadvantaged

children go to Neverland. It's a
dangerous place for a vulnerable child

to be.

But what he said behind the scenes was
this.

This comment about

Michael's method of raising children was
included on Bashir's special.

They are restricted.

They are overly protected.

I was angry at the way his children were
made to suffer.

But this was not.

Your relationship with your children is
spectacular.

Hello.

And in fact, it almost makes me weep
when I see you with them.

Another of Jackson's complaints about
the documentary is the non-inclusion of

certain statements that he feels are
pertinent to objective reporting.

Like when Bashir devoted almost... Eight
minutes to the abuse by Michael's

father? You remember when you said to me
that you just wanted to run away from

your father?

I did.

I did not hide.

But did not include this short and
revealing comment.

He hurt me when he was little, but he's
a genius. The man is a genius.

On Michael's taking his children to the
zoo, Bashir says it was no kind of trip

for two young children, and everyone
could see it but Jackson himself.

But what you don't hear... is Michael's
response.

And as far as

probing for the truth about Michael's
changing appearance, the subject of

vitiligo was virtually ignored.

And the severe burns and reconstructive
surgery were never mentioned at all.

Regardless of whether you feel that
Michael Jackson is correct in his

assertion that Martin Bashir's
documentary was not a true

representation of the interviews that
actually took place, there is one

question that many people share.

How could Michael Jackson, a 44-year-old
man who has spent most of his life in

the spotlight, have allowed himself to
open up to a virtual stranger?

This footage from Michael's camera.

may give you a better understanding.

It seems to me that through history,
people,

they really want to make someone big,
and they want to be, oh, this person is

so talented, and we've got to make them
godlike, and they have to be perfect.

And then as soon as they're there, they
get more joy in tearing someone down.

Eventually, when you talk and you say it
like it really is, you just light up.

That's what I meant.

It's about bringing out what you're
about.

That whole special, it was just an
attempt to tear him

apart. And he trusted. He trusted Martin
Beshear.

They took this thing back to the studio,
and they took a lot of things out.

And the way this thing was narrated, it
was just not fair.

And

then

slowly he started bringing his own
opinion into the picture.

As a reporter, as a news, I like to see
the truth.

Then I'll decide what my take would be
on it.

It's not just you, though. You can see
that.

Rashears will come and go.

You know?

Michael will live forever.

In everybody's heart.

If indeed...

This video, whatever it was that was
shot, is supposed to be about Michael.

Then it will show him as a caring,
loving, understanding

father, person, human being.

Because that's what he is.

No matter what you may feel about what
you've seen on this program, it's hard

to deny.

that Michael Jackson is a complex and
controversial subject who elicits a

passionate response from virtually
everyone who comes in contact with him,

whether through his music or his private
life.

In the past two hours, our only goal has
been to present an objective view of

events, showing them as they actually
occurred and allowing you to draw your

own conclusion.

But we do feel it's appropriate to leave
you with one more piece of information.

Mr. Bashir is quoted as saying, Michael
Jackson is a marvelous father to his own

children, and I never saw anything that
would qualify as a criminal activity.

This comes from an interview dated just
a few days ago.

Thanks for joining us, everyone. I'm
Maury Povich.

Good night.

Do you sometimes despair of human
nature?

Yeah.

Yes, of course.

Can you ever do anything that's right?

No.

No.

No, no, no. No matter what you do,
there's always somebody that will say

something about it. They have their
opinion, you know?

No matter what you do.

No matter how good your intentions are,
there's always some jerk, some

mean-spirited person to try to bring you
down.

And all you want to do is bring some
love and some joy, you know.

That's all.

And Granada, which made living with
Michael Jackson, maintained that it was

a fair and honest portrayal of the man.
They stand by their program and dispute

the conclusions reached in tonight's
show.

Coming up next on Fiverr, look at the
man behind the gangster rapper from

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