Original subtitles

good evening ladies and gentlemen it's a

great pleasure to be here this evening

and these chairs move quite a lot um if

I go sliding away don't take any offense

at any point um it's my pleasure to

introduce yal Noah Harari who is a

lecture at the Hebrew University of

Jerusalem where his online course A

Brief History of humankind attracted

over

65,000 signups these are the sort of

attendance numbers that any lecture at

any University can normally only dream

of um and his book sapins which we're

here this evening to discuss has been a

worldwide success translated into over

30 languages and he we are very lucky to

have him here this evening he's in the

UK for I think 48 hours 48 hours only so

you saw him here and perhaps heard him

on Radio 4 this morning before he moved

smoothly to discuss the book also on

absolute radio so the difference between

those two I think is quite an

extraordinary mental leap if nothing

else um and he has been described by the

Sunday Times uh and his book has been

described as the sort of book that

sweeps the cobwebs out of your mind its

author is an intellectual acrobat whose

logical leaps will have you gasping with

admiration his writing radiates power

and Clarity making the world strange and

new well he's not going to be doing

acrobatics in front of us this evening

at least not physically but mentally

we're hoping very much to see the best

on display ladies and Gentlemen please

welcome once again youal Noah

[Applause]

Harari and I must just Echo Robert's

comments earlier that there will be a

book signing afterwards so if you head

out of the doors on the right hand side

of the stage afterwards uh we will you

will be able to get your copy if you

haven't read it already signed um as

well from one sapen to

another um can we begin just with

outlining what you see as the the phrase

framework of of of the book itself and

and to me it's it's it's all posited

around three key revolutions tell us a

little bit about each of those well um

70,000 years ago human beings Homo

sapiens were basically just

insignificant Apes in a corner of Africa

uh not very different in their impact on

the ecosystem from many other animals uh

before that our prehistory what is

called is really just biology

uh history begins about 70,000 years ago

with the cognitive

Revolution uh during which we don't

exactly know how and why uh We've gained

remarkable cognitive abilities above all

abilities to communicate to use language

and to create and spread fictions which

we'll speak about a lot later on uh

these new cognitive abilities turned our

specie from this insignificant ape into

to the most powerful force on the

planet uh and led to the very quick

spread of sapiens from East Africa all

over the world uh the extinction of all

the other species of humans that back

then populated the planet and the

colonization of the entire planet by our

species then you have the Agricultural

Revolution about 10,000 years ago which

kind of sped up uh the historical

process it again gave our specie immense

new

powers uh enabling us to create trade

networks kingdoms cities Empires and so

forth and then the last uh Revolution

which began about 500 years ago and

which we are still really just in the

beginning of it is the Scientific

Revolution H again humankind gains

immense new powers uh s such big powers

that you can say they might really

transform us not only from just Apes

into the rulers of the planet they might

transform us into gods and this is meant

literally not as some kind of of

metaphor but humankind are now in the

process of acquiring Divine abilities

through scientific research and

technological development if in the

Bible God creates animals and plants and

humans according to his wishes so now

you humankind is gaining the ability to

start redesigning and creating other

animals and plants and also ourselves

according to our wishes so this is the

third and potentially biggest revolution

of all the Scientific Revolution can I

take you to the first one to the

cognitive Revolution there's a there's a

short passage um page 12 very soon into

the book which jumped out at me in which

I think speaks to when the newspapers

say that you chase the cobwebs out of

the mind it's this that

you posit when when Homo sapiens jump to

the top of the food

chain uh your your

your comparison is to a Banana Republic

dictator where suddenly as a result of

that very quick jump not through

evolutionary process uh that left Homo

sapiens full of uh anxieties over their

position um and you go on to claim that

you know many historical calamities from

Wars to EC iCal catastrophe have

resulted from that over hasty jump very

early on in in the homo sapiens story

tell us a little bit more about that I

mean how can we really claim that you

know the the terrible things we see in

our world today could in some way be

linked back to a sudden jump to the top

of a food chain well if you look at the

other ER animals at the top of the food

chain in the world like uh lions or

sharks or

alligators they have evolved to fill

this position for Millions upon millions

of years they didn't get there very fast

or by accident and both they themselves

and the entire ecosystem had time to

adjust to it um therefore you have many

checks and balances both internal and

external to make sure that uh they don't

destroy the the entire food chain with

homo sapiens the situation is very

different H humans have appeared on

Earth about 2 and a half million years

ago evolving from previous species but

for most of these period for two and a

half million years they were quite

similar to us they walked on two legs

they had relatively big brains they had

relatively sophisticated social systems

they used tools and we tend to think

that this must have made them the most

powerful and important creatures on

Earth but this was not the case for more

than 2 Mill years you had humans with

big brains sophisticated societies tools

working on two legs and not doing much

or at least not having much of an impact

on the rest of the ecological system you

had a few very few million humans spread

over Africa and Eurasia and uh they were

not the top predators they were

somewhere in the middle they hunted

small animals they ate carcasses left

behind by the big predators and they

themselves were prey to the big

predators like the Lions or like the

tigers or whatever and then quite

quickly in the last 100,000 years which

is a very short time in evolutionary

terms you have Homo sapiens one of these

human species jumping very quickly to

the top of the food chain not thanks to

a long process of biological evolution

by natural selection but thanks to a

much quicker process of cultural

evolution and both we ourselves and the

entire ecological system simply didn't

have enough time to adjust to it you see

it most clearly when the first humans

arrived to Australia about 45 or 50,000

years ago you have the first humans

arrive Homo sapiens no previous species

could reach Australia because of the

ocean sapiens arrive about 45,000 years

ago and within a few thousand years more

than 90% of all the big animals of

Australia become extinct and 15,000

years ago you see the same thing

happening in America with the first

humans The first Homo sapiens crossing

over the bearing Straits to Alaska and

then spreading down and within something

like 2,000 years more than 70% of the

big mammals of America become extinct so

there is there are no checks and

balances there and you see the process

continuing of course today with the

destruction of the ecological system

today on the on planet Earth more than

90% of all big animals are either we

Homo sapiens or the domesticated animals

that we have enslaved to our needs and

desires and we're the bana Republic

dictators and and yeah this is like the

Banana Republic dictator in the sense

that we are very insecure in our

position you look at a lion in the

Savanah he's very secure in his position

homo sapiens is basically a bunch of

sheep that got um nuclear weapons and

atomic power and sheep with nuclear

weapons are far more dangerous than

wolves with nuclear weapons because they

are not accustomed to such kind of power

they are and they are much more

frightened and to have somebody who is

afraid with nuclear weapons is much more

dangerous than to have somebody who

feels very secure with nuclear weapons

well I'll never look at president

Obama or Putin again in the same light

sheep with nuclear weapons is how we can

think of them going forward but once we

get to the cognitive Revolution you

start to talk about gossip Theory and

this is where your your your idea about

the myths that we need to survive really

starts to kick in I think in in your

narrative um and you talk about it

simply from the point of view of how

communities cooperate with one another

as they grow larger that as they get

beyond the size where people can know

everyone and know everyone's business

and sort of self-regulate if you want to

grow beyond that you need structures you

need the myths you need the common

stories um how how do you

think you talk a little bit about about

the importance of getting others to

believe those stories for them to work

but how does that really happen you know

I can tell a story uh and you can tell a

story but how are we going to get this

group to believe your story or my story

well the basic method is to get

everybody in our community telling the

same story and doing it doing it again

and again and again and again from early

on if you grow up in a society and you

hear everybody telling you the same

story even people who hate each other

telling you the same story from a very

early age there is very little chance

that you will doubt this story so this

is the the basic method that has has

been used throughout history of course

there are occasions when you have con

conflicting stories

and then you have big problems but

underneath for a stable Society you need

to have at least some stories about

which everybody agree so like like you

have today very tolerant and liberal

Society but basically almost everybody

at least say in the UK believe accept

the basic myth of humanism about human

rights and uh the basic basic myth of

capitalism about about the economy which

we may discuss later on what are these B

basic me can I push you a little further

on that I mean I can understand how

after generations and generations of

people telling the same story within a

community you accept it as tradition as

fact as whatever it may be but at the

very

outset how do those myths gain Credence

do you think how how do they gather

their first generation of

Believers well the crucial thing is in

most cases at least in the most

successful cases

it is not a matter of cheating or

manipulating people if you want to

convince people to believe something

usually you have to believe it yourself

and uh most I think most Christian

priests they really believe in their

stories just the same most capitalist

Bankers they really believe in the

stories that they are telling us they

are not going behind in the in some back

room and then laughing about us that we

believe their stories I mean really

believe I think we might think they do

sometimes to be perfectly honest but

carry on this is the basic thing you

really believe the story also usually

you find that there are several stories

that people keep in their mind at the

same time and uh when one story fails

they immediately grasp another story

this is again one of the things that

differentiates us from other animals

that because so much of our behavior

depends on believing in these fictional

stories we can change our Behavior

extremely rapidly simply by switching

from one story to the other and we

usually keep several stories in our

heads and when one fails we just reach

out for the other and you see it

happening in history very quickly how

this is again it's amazing you think for

ex you think for example about German

history in the 20th century and you see

the same people with the same DNA the

same geography the same class climate

and during a 100 years they switch

between five completely different

stories just like that from the second

Reich to The viar Republic to the Nazi

regime to communist East Germany at

least if you liveed say in liik and then

to a reunited and liberal Democratic

Germany and it's the same people and

they somehow manag to very quickly

switch the stories in which they believe

and again as a historian I tend to think

that most of the time it's not um it's

not a trick people really believe the

story and they completely forget the

story in which they believed 5 years ago

or 10 years ago and we also know it from

our from our own personal lives usually

people hold several narratives of

themselves of their own lives and they

switch between them and when they switch

they can like shut down something and

they completely forgot that they ever

believed something else about themselves

and the other point you make about the

the myths that communities tell to

enable themselves to exist as

communities also has a downside which in

that in the creation of those

communities around a shared myth you

create different communities with

different myths and thus those myths

that that that bring people together

also simultaneously are dividing people

at the same time I mean is there a way

out of that dissonance or do you think

that is just the nature

um the Miss

themselves uh there is a way out in the

long run and you see that as history

progresses there basically fewer and

fewer stories which more and more people

believe if you go back uh 2,000 years or

4,000 years you find that almost every

little tribe has its own mythology has

its own set of beliefs about about the

world you go about the world today and

today at least in some respects all

human on the planet have a set of of

beliefs of stories which they all share

whether it's again capitalism is maybe

the best example money is probably the

most successful story ever told uh not

everybody believes in the same God or in

the same or in the same political myth

but almost everybody on the planet

believe in the same economic stories

about money even say Osama Bin Laden he

may not have believed in American

politics or American culture American

religion but he had nothing against

American dollars I mean if you gave him

American dollars he would not throw them

away I don't believe

that and I was learning recently and I

wonder here whether again we can bring

science back into our historical story

mean I think one of the great things

about the story you tell is it's it's

interdisciplinary nature isn't it that

you're moving from science you're moving

to history and Back Again bring the two

together and I was hearing that a recent

test has been done in America with uh

the congregation in a in a Baptist

Church and they've been examining their

brain patterns as they are listening to

their charismatic preacher MH and what

people were expecting to see was

affirmation enjoyment excitement around

the message kind of endorphins jumping

going crazy all these sorts of things

but what in instead they saw was that

the prefrontal

cortex the sort of the critical thinking

area at the front of the brain

completely shut down

now this is not it was shown later this

particular

congregation and and what the the

scientists are now thinking is that when

faced with or listening to a charismatic

leader however you define that the alpha

male of the pack

Etc what's happening is that our brain

is actually

hardwired to stop questioning what we're

hearing from them MH and just accept it

and I wonder how that kind of idea might

play in into your your world in which

you know the common belief in myths is

absolutely essential for Community

defunction for the dispersion of myths

uh amongst the community and for the

ability to change those myths as you've

been

outlining uh yeah because Society is

based on these belief in common stories

and uh it also involves you know even

even marking that I believe in the same

story by wearing a particular kind of

hat or having a big beard or wearing a

suit so you just need to see the person

you know ah he believes in the same stor

that I believe so it's extremely

important so I think it's very very

reasonable that we have something very

deep in the way that our bodies that our

brain functions that enables us to just

accept the common stories of society

without thinking about them too much

because if all the time we went about

thinking about these stories then

Society will collapse I mean I don't

want to give the impression that all

these fictions are bad the basic message

is that without these fictions no

Society could function at least not any

large scale Society if you look at a

band of 100 people it can function

without

any um any mythology or any common

fictions just on the basis of knowing

everybody else and I know who you are

and so I can trust you or not and

cooperate with you or not but if you try

to build a society with thousands of

people or millions of people you must

have some unifying stories in which

everybody believes and if we didn't have

this mechanism maybe for shutting down

the prefrontal cortex then it wouldn't

work and you go beyond I mean in your

book it's not just stories I mean I

think we can understand if they're they

folk stories told around the fire or as

you say a story we can all happily buy

into like money but you also talk about

make believe groups you know entire

hierarchies of society that that would

come under the title of a story a myth

for you as well and I wondered there

whether

again calling them a make-believe group

you know we may presume that the people

believe them when they're they're making

them up but to call them that isn't that

taking away a little bit from certain

realities nature nurture for instance as

part of the debate I mean one of the

examples was how do Elites uh come about

uh in Societies in you know early

societies say in the medieval period or

something like that um and there one

could argue say look well you know if

you've got someone who can afford a

horse uh and afford some armor to be on

the top of that horse then they can

defend the people uh and as a result of

being able to defend the people they as

a result occupy an elite position in

society and make decisions about what

that Society should do now I'm I'm

struggling with seeing that as a

completely makeb beleve group as opposed

to it being a very obvious common

sensical kind of well they're able to do

that so that's why they get the position

that they do how would you kind of

square those two no definitely what

usually happens is that some accidental

process leads to a particular group of

people say the people who had horses H

finding themselves on top but then the

crucial thing is is how do you uh how do

you maintain your position how do you

establish not just a tempor orary

hierarchy but a longlasting hierarchy

and then after 300 years coming to The

Peasants and saying look 300 years ago

my great great great grandfather had a

horse so now you must all obey me it

wouldn't convince anybody and I'd love

to see people try though that would be

well worth and similarly if you take

like a modern example if in the 19th

century I don't know in the Southern

United States the white Plantation owner

would come to the to the slave on the

plantation and say okay 300 years ago

this and this happened this is why you

are now slaved on my PL Plantation not

only it would be very difficult for

these people to accept it even for

himself to explain it to himself what

justifies my position my privileges my

power people need some kind of much

deeper justification than some accident

of history that happened 300 years ago

so they invent all kinds of

stories uh for for instance of racial

superiority or of religious just

justification like in India you have

this basic creation myth that you had

the original beings the pora and the

brahmins the upper casts they came out

of its head and the the sudras OR at the

bottom of the hip they came out of his

legs so this is why they must obey the

brahmins now this sounds much more

acceptable if you if you put it in in

the right religious cont context than

saying that 2,000 years ago some tribes

from Central Asia invaded the ganis

valley and subjugated the local

population and this is why we have now

this cast

system move on to another disparity

which I know I was I was primed to

definitively ask you about this this

evening and that's gender um you in your

book you you you you show that so many

cultures geographically spread around

the world temporally spread across

history have prioritized men over women

and and you struggle to to to offer as

everyone does a convincing explanation

for why that is and why such communities

have been so

stable can you talk us through that have

you got any more insights uh since

writing the book as to how we might

explain and understand that and and

quite why it's been such a incredible

phenomena well it's one of the biggest

riddles of History because it's obvious

that in this case it's not just just the

result of some one accidental event and

it's not just the result of one

accidental story because you see the

same structure in different ways in

almost all societies there are

exceptions but in most societies known

to science for thousands of years now

the simplest explanation that comes to

the mind of many people is that men are

physically stronger than women so it's

obvious why they have dominated Society

but this doesn't really fit in with a

lot of other things know about human

beings and about apes in general and

that is that social power in most cases

is the result of social skills not of

physical strength if you look at the

hierarchies of many most human

organizations they not they do not

correlate with physical strength if you

think about maybe the most longlasting

organization in the world today is a

Christian Church uh you don't become

Pope by beating up all the other

Cardinals and I I think that I won't be

offending anybody if I say that that

Pope Francis is not the strongest

Catholic on Earth in in physical terms

so I've got this image of sort of a

weightlifting competition happening in

the sine Chapel now or something like

that yeah and it's not just the Catholic

church I mean you look everywhere I mean

you look even at criminal organizations

so very often the big boss is somebody

in his 50s or 60s whose power is the

ability to tell tell other people some

thugs in of 20s to go and kill someone

he's not going and killing him himself

and even among

chimpanzees uh the alpha male is not the

strongest male physically he is the male

that is able to construct stable

coalitions of supporters so it's social

skills and it's very often at least

believed that women have better social

skills than than men and if so and if

social skills are the key to

social superiority so how come men

dominate Society there is another very

common theory that okay maybe it's not

physical strength but it's the issue of

childbirth and and taking CH care of

children that women are all the time

occupied with being pregnant we taking

care of children so they don't have time

H to do all the important stuff which

they they they leave to men but the

problem with this theory is that among

other animals like elephants like

bonobas

the pigm Shimp panes we have cases of

precisely because the females are the

ones that are responsible for taking

care of the young they need more support

and because they need more support they

need to cooperate more and they develop

this is why they develop those social

skills because they need help from other

Elephants or from other chimpanzees in

raising the the young and what you get

is a network of females which dominates

Society whereas the males which have

much fewer responsibilities with regard

to raising the children they are much

more autonomous they are much more

self-centered they have a more

difficulties in cooperating and they're

basically pushed aside so even though

the individual male bonobo is stronger

than the individual female bonobo you

have a network of cooperating females

that dominates Society if this is

possible among bonobos or elephants why

not among uh human beings which H in

which in their case I mean social skills

are are the most important skills one of

the

possibilities uh it still doesn't have

the the backing of enough empirical data

so it's not like the answer but one of

the possibilities is that maybe this

common idea that women have Superior

social skills is not true

at least when it comes to large scale

cooporation one possibility which is

worth exploring and emphasizing it's

just a possibility it's not it still

hasn't got enough scientific backing is

that yes in in small scale

societies women have Superior social

skills but when it comes to the big

organizations as that are based on all

this myth making and in which case you

have to cooperate with complete strength

strangers then the you have the reverse

situation that women precisely because

they need the uh the direct social

connection they are at a disadvantage

whereas men who are much more

comfortable with an alienated situation

with an impersonal hierarchy which is

based on make belief and not on actually

knowing the other person they feel much

more comfortable with this kind of

situation ation so when you have large

scale societies and huge impersonal

hierarchies this is the situation where

men actually have Superior social skills

now as I said it is just a theory worth

examining it's not the answer I remember

vividly from undergrad studies reading

Herodotus and he tells a story about a

tribe where all the women of the village

uh for every male sexual partner they

put a bracelet uh on their leg and then

when all the women of a particular

generation get to a certain age they

count up their bracelets and the woman

with the most bracelets becomes

Chieftain of the Village

um Herodotus looks on it with some some

amusement I to say but it kind of it's

an interesting kind of that there are

examples that that break your the

Paradigm as it were but they are very

few involved between isn't and usually

they are from small scale societies we

don't know of any like big Empire which

was

matriarcal it's a one of the questions

of History still to be understood yeah

like um can we break come on to to one

of your your your main myths that you

talk about in the book money and we've

mentioned it once or twice already this

evening and and one of the things you

say about money is that that you know it

can Bridge any cultural Gap even AMA Bin

Laden is taking American dollars and I

just wondered how you felt that uh

uh

foil um if we place it against the

recent economic crises that have been

rocking Europe and particularly

deposited through Greece Etc which seem

to me to have been having a very uh

divisive effect and and opening up

cultural gaps if anything how would you

say the two work together well I think

in the recent economic crisis all over

the world we got some amazing examples

of the power of our belief in money at

the height of the economic crisis uh I

think two three years ago the Federal

Reserve in the US was creating every

day3 billion doar out of nothing they

created all together a trillion dollars

during during that year simply by going

into the computer and adding a few zeros

somewhere that's it I mean today you

don't even print the money most money is

not even printed it's just electronic

data the

basic uh material from which you make

money is human trust if you have trust

you can monetize it into anything into

even even into electronic data so

despite the the the the recent hits that

the capitalist system has had in in in

since 2008 still the amount of trust

that most people in the world have in

the capitalist system is

incredible and uh this is what enables

for example the the banks to create so

much money out of nothing you have trust

in money and in the systems that

produces money you have also trust in

the basic uh capitalist stories that say

first of all maybe the most basic story

of all of capitalism is the answer to

all problem the key to all the questions

that bother us is economic growth no

matter what you want in the long term

the only way to achieve it is economic

growth you want equality you want

freedom you want employment you want

democracy you want peace name it it's

through economic growth and if there

will not be economic growth in the long

run you won't have any of that on the

personal level this translates into

another extremely powerful myth the myth

of consumerism which is part of this

package that if you have any problem on

the personal level the solution is to

buy something any problem whatsoever you

probably need to buy something and then

it will be okay it can be you can buy a

product or you can buy a service you can

buy a car you can buy yoga you can buy

marriage counseling whatever but the

answer to all the problems of humankind

on the collective level they come from

economic growth on the individual level

they come from buying more stuff and

still the vast majority of the

population certainly in Europe and most

of the world they believe in these

stories and if ever they stop believing

in those stories then the capitalist

system will

collapse take you on to another of your

your big myths thinking about religion

now you you take us through in the book

A lot of the religions of the world

today and show how there's a certain

amount of cognitive dissonance in quite

a few of them but I was wanted to direct

your attention towards what you think

about the religions of the future uh and

you know obviously particularly as you

pointed out right at the beginning we're

in the throws of a new Revolution the

Industrial Revolution that and

scientific revolution that is is really

going to change our world once again

beyond anything that we understand now

and how do you see religion in the

future I mean are there going to be

techn based religions I mean I think

this morning on on radio for you we're

talking about Silicon Valley uh as as as

as some God to be worshiped uh perhaps

now and certainly in the future yeah I

think the future belongs to techn

religions I mean the big religions the

important religions of the 21st century

are more likely to emerge from Silicon

Valley than they are from the Middle

East or from Afghanistan or Syria or any

of these

places um it's a bit similar to what

happened in the 19th century with the

Industrial Revolution uh when the

Industrial Revolution swept through the

world you had a lot of reaction it

created a lot of of new problems it

destroyed a lot of old certainties and

hierarchies as marks and angles wrote In

The Communist Manifesto everything solid

melts into air and when everything solid

melts into air people become very afraid

and they look back to some reassuring

old tradition mythology religion to give

them security so back in the 19th

century the Industrial Revolution led to

a wave of fundamentalism all over the

world uh the biggest war of the 19th

century was not the Napoleonic Wars it

was not the American Civil War it was

the typing rebellion in

China when in reaction to the coming of

the Industrial Revolution of British

imperialism of the collapse of the old

Chinese system you had this failed

scholar Hong XU kuang who had a vision

from God allegedly in which God revealed

to Hong that he Hong is the younger

brother of Jesus Christ sent to Earth to

establish the kingdom of heavenly peace

and he went around southern China with

this message of heavenly peace and

millions followed him into the typing

Rebellion which was the most bloody war

of the 19th century according to the

most uh moderate estimates 20 million

people died perished in the typing

Rebellion which lasted 14 years until it

was repressed the biggest war and

similarly you had other fundamentalist

movements like you had in Sudan the

mahadi quite similar in in some respects

to what we see today in the Middle East

but none of this worked when we look

back to the 19th century we don't

remember it as the age of Faith the

really important religion or ideology

that came out of the Industrial

Revolution and the 19 century was

socialism in 1800 you didn't have any

socialists it started very little but

then it spread like wildfire and became

the most important ideological movement

of the era changing our lives completely

completely and the key to the success of

the Socialists was that they were

relevant they looked the future not to

the past they didn't study ancient

scriptures they studied the technology

and the economic structures created by

the Industrial Revolution therefore they

had something relevant to say about the

new problems and opportunities of the

Industrial Revolution now we are in the

midst of a Second Industrial Revolution

this time the main engines of change are

not Steam and electricity they are

biotechnology and computer science

intelligent design this time the main

products will not be textiles and

vehicles and things like that they will

be bodies and brains and Minds the main

products of the 21st century are likely

to be bodies and brains and minds and

the Islamic state has nothing relevant

to say about the new opportuni opport of

end danger of this for example what will

happen when artificial intelligence will

replace most humans in the job market

experts estimate that it could take as

little as 30 40 years for this to happen

you don't have any answer in the Bible

what to do when humans are no longer

useful to the economy you need

completely new ideologies completely new

religions and they are likely to emerge

from Silicon Valley or from Bangalore

and not from the Middle East and they

are likely to Pro to give people Visions

based on technology everything that the

old religions promised happiness and

Justice and even eternal life but here

on Earth with the help of technology and

not after death with the help of some

supernatural being if we can finish up

with one more question before I want to

open it up to the audience for the

second half of this evening but one of

the the key tenants of the Scientific

Revolution you put it is is the fact

that we were able to admit ignorance

that there were things that we didn't

yet know and that it was worth going out

trying to find them out MH and how do

you feel that sits with the myths we

tell that we need to survive in

communities that need to be believed

that need to be all encompassing how do

those two things sit by side by side and

how will they sit by side by side in the

future do you think well science doesn't

provide any answers for ethical

questions therefore it can never stand

by itself and even in at a deeper level

science is not really at least this is

why view as a historian science is not

really about truth it's about power the

real aim of science as an project as an

establishment is not truth it's power

particular individuals particular

scientists may be very interested in the

truth personally but as a institution

the real aim of science is power and

therefore it can and it must form

alliances always with some ideology or

religion we have in our head this again

story this myth that science and

religion are enemies that they are

fighting against each other and that

hopefully in the end s the light of

science will prevail over the darkness

of superstition and and religion I think

this is very very very far from what is

actually happened in the last few

centuries and what will continue to

happen in the next Century science there

are conflicts between particular

scientific theories and particular

religions yes but at basis science and

religion our friends our allies uh

science provides the power religion

tells us what to do with it with the

same technology say artificial

intelligence or genetic engineering you

can do completely different things with

artificial sorry with genetic

engineering you can cure cancer or you

can make designer babies what to do with

it scientists have no answer there is no

experiment in biology or physics which

will tell you what to do with genetic

engineering for this you need to believe

in some story in some religion in some

ideology and this will continue to be

the case in the 21st century also thank

you very much so we're going to open it

up now uh to the audience and the way

this is going to work is we've got down

on the ground floor here we've got some

four mic spotters yes you you deserve a

glass of water after that um uh to uh

pick up to get a mic to you and if

you're up on the top level you there is

a freestanding mic right in the center

uh and you need to make your way to that

uh microphone is it in the center is to

the sorry just to the right hand side

here so if you've got a question in the

upper level ref you're actually going to

have to make your way over to the

microphone um to to answer the question

and down here uh we've got some mic

spotters so can I ask you um please to

wait until you've got a mic to you so to

ask your question so that we can all

hear your question clearly otherwise we

won't have a chance to hear it um and

I'll probably take questions a couple at

a time and then we can throw them all to

your V at the same time so if we're

going start in this section here there's

a lady uh just yes with dark hair that

and then we'll go to the gentleman uh in

the row in front and then there's a lady

in the blue here as well we'll do this

section first then we'll come to this

section and we'll take some uh in

between from the top hi uh thank you Dr

Rari um first of all thank you so much

for uh expanding so many Minds with your

book um my question is really with the

gender imbalance uh issue uh I know

you've said that you don't have a

convincing answer for it yourself and we

look forward to the day when we hear

from you on that um but I wonder if you

have an opinion given what you know of

different groups of people throughout

history and how they've attained power

looking at the world today what in your

opinion could be the most important

thing women could be doing to address um

this gender imbalance either in Behavior

or action and related to that um if you

have an opinion on that why do you think

it hasn't happened

already Okay so we've got J we'll hold

that one if you don't mind and if you

pass the microphone forward to the

gentleman in the RO in front hi thank

you for such a great talk uh Jewish and

Christian and Catholic religions have

committed terrible genocides based on

their myths do you think these religious

leaders who've created these lifts and

pushed these myths around the world

should go to prison based on their myth

belief and pushing it

across the world thank you okay so we've

got gender and religion two small topics

for you to deal with and one more uh

coming from the lady in the blue and

another easy one climate change um I'd

love to hear your thoughts

on what you

think Homo sapiens communities will look

like over the next 50 hundred years

given that we're in the beginning stages

of maybe the the next mass extinction

and yeah just your thoughts on how you

think we're going to respond to climate

change yeah okay okay the future gender

religion and climate change okay so um

two

minutes so with regard to gender I think

that there's been a tremendous change

over the last century uh it may be the

biggest social change in thousands of

years of history for thousands of years

you had so many different

revolutions political social and

economic so many different things

changed but this basic patriarcal

structure of most human societies at

least the more the bigger human

societies didn't

change uh and over the last 100 years

you see a really fundamental change in

the status of women and in the relation

in gender relations in general it's

still very far from being a completely

egalitarian society and it's

questionable whether it it will be

possible ever to have a completely

egalitarian society

but I I wouldn't say that nothing has

has been done or accomplished in the

last few decades looking to the Future

and it's also links to to to the other

question I'm not sure there'll still be

genders uh in 50 or 100 or 150

years uh with this new ability to

re-engineer to create bodies and brains

and Minds as the basic products of the

21st century economy the most uh

fundamental um structures of the human

body and mind them themselves might

change so I'm not so sure that a 100

years from now people will have a clear

gender of just one gender uh just to

give an example that already starting to

happen um in Virtual realities for

example it's very easy for a person to

adopt a different gender uh to change

genders or to construct all kinds of

alternative genders and you have today

like kids H boys who play the roles of

girls and vice versa in as as avatars in

Virtual Worlds today it's still very

primitive you sit in front of the

computer and it's a two-dimensional

reality but in 30 years years uh more

and more of a life might be transferred

into a three-dimensional virtual reality

which provides people with far more

excitement and far more interest than

the drab life in the outside world in an

economy where they are no longer needed

and a political system which in which

they have no power and in such a

situation I mean it's it's I wouldn't

just take it for

granted that the gender structure

familiar to us today and from thousands

of years in the past will still be

relevant in in 50 or 100 years so these

are a few thoughts about gender uh the

other topic was religion religion yes uh

whether to to put on trial um people for

propagating myth that then causes

genocide and so forth I think the qu the

big the real question is uh I don't have

like a a an answer for all cases but a

very obvious question to ask is what is

the relation of cause and effect between

the people who first invented the me and

spread them and the people who committed

the the atro atrocities of the genocide

I wouldn't put Jesus on trial for what

the Crusaders have done a thousand years

after after his his death at least

according to the best of my

understanding there is a very very big

difference between what he preached and

what the

Crusaders understood from his preaching

in on other occasions for instance in

the case of I don't know the Hitler and

the Nazis there is a much closer link

between the people who first spread

their stories and the atrocities that

were committed in the name of of these

stories what we need to remember is that

thos sapiens has an incredible capacity

to reinterpret stories this is one of

the of of of the of the power of stories

that it enables them to change and to

adapt so a story can

say white and people will say yes yes

yes this is just an allegory when it

says when it's written white it actually

mean black and when it says that you

should love their neighbor it actually

means that you should crucify their

neighbor or you should put him burn him

if he doesn't believe in the same

version of the religion of love and

compassion as as as your

version so from this perspective I

wouldn't blame the people who or

necessarily the people who invented the

story in the first place I would also

look at the people who reinterpret the

story in very creative ways sometimes

and then climate change particularly in

light of VW recently well climate change

is is a very depressing issue because

in in this case there was a lot of talk

but no fundamental change and and the

basic problem here is um probably the H

fundamental capitalist story of economic

growth at least at present maybe in the

future they'll find some way to to make

the two work together but at least at

present there is really no way of

reducing say the emission of greenhouse

gases of stopping slowing down even a

global warming without reducing halting

or decreasing economic growth and no

government almost no government today is

willing or able to do that when the

capitalist story clashes with this

problem of H global warming the

capitalist story always wins so maybe

we'll find some new technological ways

of

of settling the the two

together but H if that doesn't happen

then I don't think that chances at least

now is that we won't do

anything radical enough in time and that

uh this is a unfolding disaster that

humanity is simply walking into and will

have to face the consequences in and not

to distant

future okay we're going to go up to the

top to the standing mic can we get the

first sort of three questions uh from up

the top

please hi good evening um I wanted to

ask a similarly uh small question about

uh the relationship between these

stories and what you might view as some

kind of objective reality um basically

is there some sort of relationship

between the most successful stories that

we tell in society and some kind of

objective truth um or is it more their

ability just to bring people together

and you mentioned this uh interesting

example of of Isis has no response to

the development of humanity over the

next you know 50 to 100 years does that

mean that you know our proximity to a

sort of scientific truth means that the

story will be more successful than just

a story which is entertaining and gives

people Solace mhm okay thank you and the

next hi so the question is what should

we believe because I feel like I had

this idea that as human mean we tend to

know the basic values like compassion

and kindness but our mind is also so

weak that is so easily interfere for

example Nazi and um now right now we're

seeing Isis that just turn normal people

into killing machines so how should we

think that as normal people living in

the society when somebody trying to make

us believe what they want us to believe

how can we distinguish how can we keep

Independence and and one more if we

hadn't

here um I would like to ask um firstly

the cognitive leap do you have any idea

why that happened um secondly hear the

cognitive leap um why did that happen

Okay um also how aware of you how how

aware are you of the myth that you're

propagating

yourself okay and and do you have a

belief in truth mhm uh it seems the top

row are very much more

philosophical maybe it's the quality of

the air up

there so should we start with the

cognitive leap first and and then answer

go for it uh so about the um

objectivity there is surprisingly little

connection between the objective

truthfulness of a story and its

historical success some of the most

successful stories in history and I

won't name names not to offend anybody

are the most far-fetched and

and and strange I mean we are so used to

them that we are it's reasonable for for

somebody to believe that but just try to

think about it from the Viewpoint of

somebody who never heard them before and

how can anybody believe that uh so there

is no connection you very often it's

accident D Al why one religion becomes

dominant and spreads and not another

religion it very often has nothing to do

with the truth value of the story it

depends more on all kinds of either

organizational skills or accidents of

History um about the second question

what whether there is any kind of of

truth that can serve as a basis for

ethics for Morality

uh and what is real in in the world so

for me ethics is not about obeying the

commands of some this imaginary entity

or or that imaginary entity but it all

revolves around the question of

suffering which as far as I understand

is the most real thing in the world or

the thing which is most easily most easy

to test it's it's reality suffering is

real it can be the outcome of belief in

all kinds of imaginary stories and and

and entities but the suffering itself is

real the easiest test whether something

is real or not just ask yourself can it

suffer uh a nation cannot suffer we say

that the nation suffered the defeat in

war this is just a metaphor a nation

doesn't suffer even if it loses a war

the people in in the nation the

civilians the solders they can suffer

but a nation doesn't suffer similarly if

a a bank goes bankrupt the bank doesn't

suffer if the Euro loses its value the

Euro doesn't suffer and similarly if the

Temple of Zeus is burned down Zeus

doesn't

suffer uh his Believers may suffer yes

uh humans are real things they really

suffer animals really suffer a cow who

is separated from her cough in the dairy

industry they the the cow and the cough

they really suffer this is real but a

nation that loses a a war doesn't suffer

so this is I think the the the clearest

there are other tests of course but for

me this is the clearest and most

important

test about the cognitive leap cognitive

Revolution what what caused it we don't

really know um there are all kinds of of

theories but it's unclear what happened

to Homo sapiens about 70,000 years ago I

mean before that if you go back a 100

thousand years ago you find humans that

look very much like us with brains the

same size as ours but they behave in a

completely different way the best theory

we have is that some small genetic

mutation or a few small genetic mutation

occurring around 70,000 years ago

led to a change in the internal

structure of the Sapien brain perhaps

linking together two brain areas which

were previously separate or or vice

versa and this resulting in new

cognitive abilities but again this is

just a hypothesis at present uh I think

the best thing about science is that

when you don't know something you don't

have to invent some fanciful story you

can just say I don't know so we don't

know what caused the cognitive

Revolution there was another question I

think linked to it how aware are you of

of the myths you're spinning for us I I

try to be notice he avoided that one get

out I I try to be as as aware as

possible again I try to use the same

test that I mentioned earlier uh the

test of suffering

and as some something to hold on when

you see the immense power that stories

have over humanity and also over myself

to keep asking myself what is really

real and not just a story in my mind and

the test I keep returning to is the test

of suffering what uh what is really what

is suffering and what causes it and

focus on that and that can give you at

least some

some lead away from just immersing

yourself in more and more fictions and

mythologies to bring things down a

little bit I'm reminded very much of the

Matrix uh movie where the guy says or

the computer says you know we tried an

iteration of your world first without

any suffering and nobody bought it right

everyone you had to have the suffering

kind of within the Matrix world for it

to be believe um but you spent a lot of

time in your book also talking about

happiness yes I just think just to jump

in with the happiness that that

happiness is not studied enough as a

subject within the historical narrative

that we tell um and yet suffering is

your by line for for your your your

check if you like how do you see the two

what what's the use of studying

happiness then suffering is two sides of

the same coin and at least my Publishers

told me that if I write about suffering

nobody would like to read it if you

write about happiness ah yes happiness

we want to hear about happiness so uh so

like in in the headline you have

happiness but when you read the small

print you see oh it's actually a lot

about

suffering this sounds like the best

advertising gig has ever been put

together we're going to come to this

part of the audience for questions uh

first we've got some mics coming too

we've got a gentleman in the second row

we've got a gentleman in the first row

and uh we've got a a lady right next to

him as well that kind of thing we'll go

those through at the first and then come

to the back after that just picking up

on the genetics point do you believe

that Humanity genetically can all

believe the same myth and I give the

slight sort of fasile example of the

white and gold dress or the blue and d

and black dress and therefore is genetic

manipulation in the future the way in

which those that are truly seeking to

influence Humanity can get them to bond

around a powerful myth mhm okay that's

one come to you next um it's kind of the

same ballpack but I was wondering you've

spoken a lot about how we change stories

and our ability to change mop one pick

up another one and how we might do that

with religion in the future and it might

become something that looks completely

different and I wondered if on the flip

side there are any stories that run all

the way through that Humanity has had

kind of from the beginning and might

have changed but there's a kind of

immutable core or are we just creatures

that constantly move on mhm okay and we

have one more from the front row and

then take those three together thank you

there's a Mike there hi there yeah we've

spoken a lot about money being the

biggest story that Humanity's created

and with religion and capitalism uh as

you know kind of the second ones under

that what uh do you think will be the

next biggest story in Humanity's next

Leap Forward and or is there even a

bigger Story the money in your opinion

mhm okay should we take those so sort of

uh genetically manipulating everyone to

the same myth the successful ones and

what's going to be the next big story

well um it is possible for everybody to

believe in the same story at the same

time we have examples again like like

money uh which has been the most

successful Story Probably and it's it's

a very good story I'm not implying that

there is something bad about it it has

done Humanity a lot of good in in in

many ways uh both money and capitalism

um it's very common today not only today

today to blame them from all the evils

in the world but you have to say that

they are also responsible for some very

good developments uh today in the world

more people die each year from eating

too much than from eating too little

more people die each year um from old

age diseases than from infectious

diseases and childhood diseases and more

people commit suicide each year than all

the people killed by War and crime put

together and all three are wonderful

news it may not sound like it but if you

think about it again this wonderful news

and the capitalist system has a lot of

credit for all these three achievements

reducing famine H reducing disease and

reducing violence in the world uh so I

felt I just had to say it to

counterbalance maybe the the wrong

impression so it is possible for all

people to believe in the same myth even

without uh genetic engineering or

biological

engineering um we can't really say what

will be the next stage um the most

probable thing is that the next stage of

History will involve fundamental changes

in humanity

itself um for thousands of years of

History we had social and political and

technological revolutions but

Humanity itself stayed the same we still

have the same bodies the same brains the

same Minds as hunter gatherers 20 or

30,000 years ago it's very likely that

the next stage will involve uh changes

and manipulations on the most

fundamental feature of homo sapiens on

the body the brain and the mind and it

could be uh used also to make people

believe all in the same story or in the

in different stories I don't know uh but

it's certainly a a

possibility uh the second question was

most successful myth to date I mean that

might be money for you it sounds like

and then what's the next uh kind of myth

um about the most successful what it the

question the most

successful oh oh yeah whether something

has not change well again the the the

the power of stories as against genetics

is that they are extremely adaptable and

malleable for a beehive to change its

social structure would take probably

thousands of generations of natural

selection the bees cannot wake up one

morning and have a revolution execute

the queen and establish a republic of

bees or a Communist dictatorship worker

bees of the world unite let's have a

Communist dictatorship of bees it won't

work um humans can do it because we

don't need to change our DNA we change

the story and this can be done very very

quickly so you don't people sometimes

believe that you have stories that

remain the same for thousands of years

this is especially the case in religions

that people convince themselves that I

believe in the same thing and follow the

same

uh Commandments as people did thousands

of years ago but when you look deeper

into into it in almost all cases you

find that there are enormous changes

like uh again like favorite example the

pope is always good when you need

something some example like this so you

now have the pope saying to people in

Europe open the churches to the Muslim

refugees coming from Syria this is the

Christian thing to do is to welcome

these Muslim refugees into your churches

go back a thousand years and the Pope

says go to Syria and kill these

infidels and still the pope would say no

it's the same Christianity it's the same

it's the same basic story so people tell

themselves that nothing changes but in

reality changes all the time in quite

drastic

ways uh what was the third the next big

myth the next big myth

um well it will be complicated to

explain in in two or three minutes but

um I think the the next big story is

data uh if to tell the story of like

history in a nutshell uh first people

believed in God and humans were

important simply because God created

them and gave them special privileges

and whatever and then you had the

humanist Revolution and people stopped

believing in God and started to believe

in themselves in humans human beings

became the sacred sacred in their own

right this is the the faith in human

rights that homo sapiens is sacred why

just because because we are sacred we

are the most important thing in the

universe we are the source of all

meaning and Authority the next big thing

I my guess is that we'll move from uh as

we moved from a decentric to a

homocentric worldview we'll move from a

homocentric to a data Centric Viewpoint

the basic myth which you see starting to

emerge from Silicon Valley is that the

entire universe is a flow of data

everything in the universe is just

different patterns of data flow all

organisms are algorithms all or

organisms giraffes Tomatoes humans and

flu viruses are just different data

processing

systems up till now the most successful

the most advanced algorithms in the

universe were humans which was why it

was a good reason to sanctify humans

they are the best data processing

systems in the world but we are now

creating better Data Systems than humans

and humans will move aside and the

future will belong to a completely

different kinds of

algorithms um this is my personal guess

uh where we are heading to in the 21st

22nd century data replacing humanism as

the central myth of

History suddenly everyone starts cutting

up their Tesco Club cards and U Can we

head to the the back section on this

side and then we'll come over here after

that there was uh a gentleman with his

hand up high with the paper in his hand

there's a lady row or so behind him and

there's a gentleman in the front row of

the center oh sorry we'll go for the

lady in the front row as well we'll take

those three and then we'll come round to

the

left is there a mic um thank you you

mentioned that myths are necessary for

large societies to organize themselves

and the nation state was

really very much relied on on myths

during the 20th century and was the

construct that we used to organize

ourselves politically in the 20th

century 19th centur 20th century what do

you think going forwards is going to be

the organizing principle for political

states in the 21st 22nd century I mean

where are we going MH okay and then

there was a a lady in the front row yeah

there I want to ask um do you think love

is a myth

now that's the kind of question get and

there's a lady in the back row on that

section as

well thank you um um I have a question

um regarding um well it seems it seems

um that we're kind of between stories at

the moment and uh a lot of the questions

here today seem to

um uh pinning their hopes for new

stories and so is the case with mine um

I'm just wondering if you have um or

what your view is on the dissonance

between um the stories we tell children

about nature and animals and the um

abysmal way in which we allow animals to

be treated mhm yeah okay uh okay so

first about the nation state in in

politics uh for the last 200 years the

Nation nationalism was one of the most

important stories and myth in the world

but we are now seeing the the decline in

the importance of of of

nationalism despite all the talk about

the Revival of nationalism say say in

Europe when you compare the strength of

nationalism in Europe today to what it

was a century ago it's there is

absolutely no

comparison uh just 100 years ago in the

first world war Italy for example joined

the war the first world war in 1915

nobody forced it to join the war nobody

invaded it it joined the war of its own

volition in order to gain a few little

territories mainly triest and the

trantino that they claim this is sacred

Italian

soil illegally occupied by the austr

Hungarian Empire Italy lost in the war

something like 650,000 soldiers killed

and more than a million soldiers injured

for triest and the trantino no Italian

government today would risk even 5,000

soldiers to get some territory from

Slovenia or from Austria it's it's

almost Unthinkable similarly if you

think about all the the the independence

movement in Scotland if you compare that

to what you had say 200 300 years ago uh

there is no comparison almost no body

was willing to be killed or to kill

somebody for or against a Scottish

independence compared to the situation

two 300 years ago when the government in

London was willing to basically send its

Army to the highlands and then then

practice a sort of ethnic cleansing

after koden after

1745 so it's a totally different kind of

story uh you can maybe talk today in

Europe about Boutique nationalism which

is kind of nice to have under this big

protective umbrella of the European

Union but nobody's going to be killed

for this Boutique

nationalism and it makes good historical

sense for nationalism to be waning

because the big problems of humankind in

the 21st century are all Global in

nature and there is no country that can

solve these problems on its own

uh it's not the right level whether it's

global warming whether it's the global

economic crisis whether it's the

opportunities and dangers of new

technologies like artificial

intelligence what will happen when

artificial intelligence will outperform

humans in Co in in cognition in

intelligence uh this is not the kind of

thing that a single government of a

single country can solve by itself so uh

in in this sense the future hopefully

would belong to a more

Global sort of politics if humankind

cannot move to this level of more a

global political system not necessarily

Global government but some kind of more

effective Global political system we

will not be able to face effectively the

really important problem and dangers of

the 21st century so this is

about politics What About Love About

Love so my husband is in the audience so

I have to be careful very careful about

what I'm saying now love is certainly

real but there are many many many

myths that have

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[Applause]

been love is is a both a biological and

a personal subjective

reality uh but there are a tremendous

amounts of mythologies and stories woven

around around it uh like you see a a a

Hollywood science fiction movie and you

have the aliens Conquering the Galaxy

and invading Earth or you have the

Matrix this all knowing all powerful

system that enslaves humankind and you

have the hero being manipulated

right and left by this system and you

have the evil robots of the aliens he's

is riddled with bullets from from from

these aliens or robots or whatever and

then in the very last moment when

everything seems hopeless and humanity

is going to be destroyed or conquered by

the aliens suddenly something happens

and the hero wakes up and turns the

table and the aliens don't know what

what happened and the Matrix cannot

understand what is happening and this is

all because of love this is the best

that most Hollywood screenwriters can

come up

with and um it's not even some you know

it's not even some Cosmic Compassion or

something like that it's usually a very

caral type of love between two

mammals and uh um my personal Viewpoint

is that it's extremely unlikely that

aliens that have managed to conquer the

entire galaxy or a super intelligent

computer that that rule this entire

reality cannot fathom cannot understand

a hormonal rush so I I don't think that

this kind of of

myth works that was the most diplomatic

mentioning of pig gate I've heard so far

in the

last and but moving on to animals the

final question was about about the the

very poor treatment of animals that we

seem very comfortable with in the 20th

and 21st century yeah so uh here we we

have a huge difference between the kind

of stories that you you you open a

children's book and it's all full of sto

nice stories about cuddly animals uh

both farm animals and and wild animals

and it's miles and miles away from how

we from the actual lives of these

animals and and how we treat them um so

it's

about

compartmentalizing uh our

minds uh again homo homo sapiens humans

have an amazing capacity for cognitive

dissonance of knowing something and not

knowing it at the same time believing

something and believing just the

opposite at the same time if we did not

have this capacity we probably would

have been unable to form any functioning

Society any functioning culture because

all societies and cultures are based on

contradictions like you have you believe

in an all powerful all knowing god and

at the same time you exempt this God

from all the suffering in the world and

blame say the devil now it it it cannot

work together either you believe in a

single God that is all powerful and

controls everything and creates

everything and if there is a devil then

the devil must also be the creation of

that same God and then that God is

responsible for whatever the devil is

doing or the devil is independent of God

and then he's not a single Creator he's

not all powerful he's not all knowing

you have at least two Gods fighting each

other but somehow people manage to

reconcile it in their their minds to be

both monotheists and dualists and to to

take out the right story at the right

time so it's the same with with the

attitude to animals we can tell a

bedtime story to to a child about this

cow its adventures and then we f it a

stake and demanded it finishes

everything in the plate without making

the connection between the story and the

think we're going to have to move to um

super fast snap questions in our di

minutes I want to come back up to the

top so if we can have two questions from

up the top and then we'll come to two

questions here in the in the center back

if you can put your hands up and we'll

get some mics to you very quickly and it

will have to be 30 second answers go for

it okay do you think that today's world

can function successfully without money

without money h

no

brilliant my son turned six yesterday

what advice would you give him as he

prepares for a world of Robotics and

artificial

intelligence um is that nothing they

teach him in the educational system

today is really relevant to

the to the world in which he he will

actually live he uh the most important

capacity he will need to have is to all

the throughout life learn there will be

no ending to learning and to Reinventing

ourselves again and again and again

because the situation in which you learn

things until you are 20 or 25 and then

most of life you just work in whatever

you learned or or use whatever wisdom

you've gained it's not going to work

anymore the pace of change is so fast

that uh you'll have to learn all your

life okay we've got someone in the

center we had uh someone on the front

row yes gentlemen there those who can

make man believe absurdities can make

man commit

atrocities how on Earth that was said by

volter by the way very wise man how does

one inoculate Society against the toxic

the orthod toxic myth takes that abound

today the future Generations how do we

inoculate them against such myth takes

and can we have the lady just next to

you as well one at times yeah yeah sure

sure sure um it's it's extremely ult

again I don't know the answer um it

Demands a really tremendous amount of

work of personal work to free yourself

even a little bit from the dominant

stories of the age um I'm not familiar

with any example from history that a

large scale populations have managed to

do it and uh therefore I again I I'll

use the scientific way method and say

that I don't know the answer to to that

one and the lady next to hi um it was

interesting to hear your thoughts on

consumerism and the idea that we buy

things or in the book you say that we

travel for example because we're driven

by um a consumerism lifestyle do you

think it's also possible that we would

travel because we um we want to explore

the world we are people who are driven

to a higher intelligence or

experiences cultural experiences MH yeah

we often tell ourselves that we want we

travel to the other side of the world

because we want to explore the world but

all the airports and all the resorts

look exactly the same and uh there is

less and less exploring to do in this

geographical sense of really going to

the other side of the world and even

when not all of course not all travelers

but very often when people do go to the

other side of the world they still want

to have all the things that they had

back home they in a deep sense they

don't really want to explore the world

again they they believe in these stories

that they see on the commercials and and

so forth that by traveling to Thailand

or to Mexico I will explore a different

reality and I'll get in touch with a

different part of myself but in reality

I I don't think there is kind of inside

yourself there is a box of emotions and

Sensations with the label open only when

you're in Mexico and then you get to

Mexico and wonderful things come out

basically I think that everything you

can hope to know about yourself you

probably can know it even here in

London that's not something the plane

companies want to hear said um I'm very

sorry to you who we haven't managed to

get to for questions I think we're going

to have to wrap things up now and one

thought that that that struck my mind

that we've been painting a picture which

is potentially not that happy uh about

about the future and you know the way

you end your book describing us as

dissatisfied and irresponsible Gods who

who don't know what they want um I think

sets of a question mark by where that

future's going but to be honest I

comfort myself with the fact that um if

you remember back to Back to the Future

Part Two when they when they went to the

Future and imagined it the year they

actually went to was

2015 uh and here we are and I still

don't have my flying car and uh the

self-tying laces of the Nike trainers um

haven't turned up although apparently

Nike have promised something of that

sort by the end of the year so perhaps

you know give even our best intentions

we can't predict the future with any

accuracy um and

I throw that last thought to you for the

final word yeah definitely there is no

way we can predict the future today less

than ever before in history uh nobody

really has a clue how the economy or

Society or gender relations would look

like in 2050 what we can do is uh

explore some of the possibilities uh I

think that the for historians for

academics the task with regard to the

future is not to make predictions it is

to explore different possibilities to

prepare ourselves for different

possibilities and in this sense it's

often said that you study history in

order to kind of predict the future and

learn lessons from the mistakes of the

past and so forth I think that the main

reason to study history is to free

ourselves from the past the past

controls us through all these stories

institutions the past controls our hopes

our thoughts our dreams our fears and

shapes them and this really Limits The

Horizon of possibilities which we can

see before us and I see my job as a

historian in trying just a little bit to

relax this grip of the past and enable

us to

Envision a wider Horizon of

possibilities pleas and and gentlemen

yal Noah

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