Original subtitles

An explosive new documentary set to air on HBO is reigniting claims that Michael

Jackson sexually abused children. You dated Wade Robson, one of the accusers,

and leaving Neverland for over seven years, is that right? That's correct,

yes. Neverland was unbelievable.

I have literally been in every corner, every closet.

I mean, there was that level of trust.

They've repeatedly changed their stories, and the evidence overwhelmingly

undermines it.

You know, he took the easy way and makes sense.

If I go through with this... I win big time. I will get everything I want. They

will enjoy it forever.

This just gets wilder every single day.

I will take anybody down that harps a child.

The year was 1993.

Michael Jackson was in the middle of his biggest world tour yet, the dangerous

world tour.

He was on top of the world, both musically and professionally.

His album sales were through the roof. He had just signed a multi-million

dollar publicity deal with Pepsi. And he owned one of the world's largest music

catalogues, ATV Music, which famously included the Beatles.

All of this, and then... Michael Jackson.

The pop star is accused of abusing a 13-year-old boy. A 13-year-old boy is

accusing the singer of sexual molestation.

is going to be humiliated beyond belief. He will not believe it. He will not

believe what's going to happen.

Beyond his worst nightmares, I've got one more record.

If I go through with this, I win big time. I will get everything I want. They

will be destroyed forever.

There have been many disgusting statements made recently concerning

allegations of improper conduct on my part.

These statements about me are totally false.

I had been the target.

Of an extortion attempt.

Now, I've seen people say that because a settlement was reached in the Jordan

Chandler case, that's a sign of Michael's guilt.

What are your thoughts on that?

The money that was paid out to Jordy Chandler didn't come from Michael

Jackson. It came from his insurance company.

Have you ever had a car accident and you say, but it wasn't my fault? Of course.

The insurance company doesn't give a shit. They make a decision and they do

what they want to do. And everybody's going, but if he didn't do this...

Why is he paying this guy $20 million or the family $20 million?

He didn't do it. The insurance company did it. By this time in his career,

Michael was no stranger to lawsuits.

And unfortunately for many celebrities, lawsuits and scandals are a part of life

whether the accusations are legitimate or not.

I get sued probably 15 times a year. I have lawyers on a monthly

retainer just because you get sued so much when you're famous.

It may be the most famous star in the world, he's certainly one of the

richest, and that makes Michael Jackson a prime target for lawsuits.

Denver singer-songwriter Crystal Cartier is suing Jackson, claiming she wrote

Dangerous in 1985.

Another day, another lawsuit for Michael Jackson. This time, his former

spokeswoman says she's suing the pop star for $44 million.

I believe I am Annie from Smooth Criminal. Michael Jackson's alleged son

has just gone public.

Why do you think?

Michael would stop your repeated target for lawsuits.

When you have a certain item, people take advantage of it.

How are you doing? Sheriff's Department. Do you have a search warrant?

Who else is here?

We, the jury in the above entitled case, find the defendant not guilty of lewd

acts upon a minor child.

An explosive new documentary set to air on HBO is reigniting claims that Michael

Jackson sexually abused children. Wade Robson and James Safechuck accused the

pop icon of molesting them when they were young boys.

I know this must be a hard time because there aren't that many people.

that know someone quite as well as their ex-partner.

You dated Wade Robson, one of the accusers, in Leaving Neverland for over

seven years. Is that right? That's correct, yes.

How did you guys first get together?

I met him approximately in 1991.

And you were how old?

Maybe around nine, ten years old. We met at a photo shoot with my Uncle Michael.

Everything went really well. We all hung out together. We were friends. You know,

becoming friends, I should say.

And then...

Next thing I knew, he had asked my uncle Michael if he could get to know me

better. He had started to develop a little crush.

He asked my uncle Michael if he would arrange a situation where we could get

to know each other better.

So my uncle did that. He had us both meet at the ranch.

Wade's family was there, his mother, his sister, himself.

I was there with my brother. We were there for about a week, just getting to

know each other.

Towards the end of that trip, he very sweetly turned to me and asked, would

you be my girlfriend?

And of course, you know, we had gotten along so well, I said yes. And that

started then and last for seven plus? Seven plus years. Seven plus years. We

had about a 10-year friendship relationship. It's hard to pinpoint the

exact time.

So it started as, I guess, a young, innocent thing. But then by the end of

it, you were in your late teens.

Absolutely. So it was, by all means, a real relationship by the end of it.

Yeah.

During your time with Wade, what was he like as a boyfriend?

You know, in the beginning of our relationship, or actually let me

rephrase this. Throughout the entire relationship, we were very good friends.

Everything was very normal, very supportive of one another. We were very

close.

He was always either at my house or I was at his house. Our families were

friends. His mother was friends with my mother.

And this went on for years. Everything was fine until he became about 17, 18

years old, and I started to see his behavior change.

And that's when he started to cheat.

And when you're with someone so long and you're so close to them, you understand

that something is changing.

There's a difference in behavior.

And as I would confront him about these things, he would say, no, these aren't

true. I'm working on this project or I'm doing this, but constantly lying.

That was something I was going to say. Did he ever...

bring up any infidelities with you. Yeah, no, he denied them.

And there's a women's intuition, you know, when something is going on.

But I had trust and faith in him, and I believed what he said. As you should, he

was your boyfriend.

Absolutely, yeah, and best friend. You tweeted that you found out that Wade

cheated on you with multiple women, who he hoped would advance his career.

You also say, you may know one of them because it was a huge pop music scandal.

Yeah. We have to say allegedly here, the alleged...

was that he cheated on you with Britney Spears when he was working with her as a

slave for you, Britney Days. Yes, exactly. Which then resulted in her

relationship with Justin Timberlake ending.

Was that the end? Was that the cut-off moment there?

Yes, but that was also one of the situations where I felt something wasn't

right, and I was confronting him about that, one of those in particular.

Which he continued to deny and then somebody very close to me who was also

close to him Was able to tell me no these things are true, and it's not just

this one He's sleeping with this person and this person and this person and when

I spoke to a few of these other women I found out that these were in fact true

and and these women were people as you say who he thought would Advance his

career help advance his career

It's interesting because the note was found and confirmed to be written by

Wade that stated this, and I quote, my story of abuse and its effects will make

me relatable slash relevant.

The last sentence of that note said, it's time for me to get mine.

When questioned and asked what he meant by that last sentence, he said he didn't

know and he didn't remember.

What do you think he meant by it's time for me to get mine? I think he meant

just what he's doing now.

has always been a bit of an opportunist.

And he gets it, I'm going to say, I feel comfortable saying this, he gets this

from his mother.

And he knows how to position himself into different situations that will

benefit him in a financial way.

So once he had nothing else to climb for, once he was being taken off of the

Cirque du Soleil show and other jobs weren't coming through, this was his

next outlet. And this is what he means by he will get what he deserves or he

will get.

And it's interesting that you say that came from his mother, because, of

course, the story goes that Michael first met Wade in Australia in the late

80s. He won a competition to meet Michael, and then they lost contact for

a little while, and it was his mother that was trying to get back to Michael,

and then eventually it happened, and he invited them over, and they met again.

Absolutely. Now, your relationship with Wade isn't mentioned in the film.

I'm not surprised.

Why do you think that is?

It completely discredits what he's saying.

He's saying that he was in a relationship with my uncle, that they

were in love and that they were having a relationship, if you will. He's saying

that my uncle kept him from women, which is not true. We were just talking about

how my uncle put us together. It would discount or discredit the things that

he's trying to claim.

And I find it fascinating that he thinks that he's able to just erase 10 years of

his life.

Yeah. What would you, I guess, say to Wade now if you had the opportunity to

chat to him?

I would confront him about his lies. I would tell him to stop lying. I'm not

curious as to why he's doing it. He needs to stop. I don't care what his

reasoning is as far as trying to be relevant, desperate for money. Whatever

it is, these lies need to stop, and it's not okay. This man, my uncle took care

of him and did very well by him and his family, and he knows that.

I've got Brad Sundberg on the phone with me now. He worked with Michael across an

18-year span as his technical director, both on his albums and in personal

projects, including

Neverland Valley Ranch.

He currently is running a traveling seminar called In the Studio with MJ.

Brad, in Wade's lawsuit against the Jackson estate, he mentions that some of

the abuse took place at a recording studio named Record One. He said Michael

had a sort of green room and that the abuse went on in there.

Now, you were at the studio every day with Michael. What are your thoughts on

these claims?

Well, Michael did have what we call the private lounge.

Whenever you work with an artist of any magnitude, they usually have a lounge

where they can go and take a meeting, grab a phone call, grab a nap, watch TV,

whatever they want to do. The studio was very closed.

Nobody came into the studio really without a reason for being there.

So it wasn't like Michael had guests there every day.

I mean, the guests were actually pretty infrequent.

The perception...

Michael always had kids there, kids and chimps and clowns juggling bowling pins.

There's really no validity to that. We were working.

So you don't believe any of the claims that the abuse happened in the studio?

You know, let me pull you back and do a bit of a big picture.

Number one, I'm a dad.

At that point, I had two daughters.

I've worked with kids in my church.

For years, I'm very aware of kids.

Not in a million years did I ever see a child around Michael Jackson that looked

like they had been distressed, hurt, abused.

I can't, you know, put my hand on a Bible and say absolutely nothing

happened in that room.

It's just there weren't that many instances.

I mean, I remember seeing Wade once or twice at the studio.

was not a regular occurrence at all, and there wasn't a sense of wrongdoing

or, oh my goodness, what's going on.

Brad, you played a very large part in Michael's vision that was Neverland

Valley Ranch.

Michael brought you in to design the music and video systems throughout the

ranch. There aren't that many people that got to see, I guess, Neverland as

thoroughly. As you did. So these rumors of Neverland being some sort of house of

horrors in a place to lure children, what are your thoughts on that?

If you hear a chuckle in my voice, it's just out of sheer frustration.

Neverland was unbelievable.

It was such a peaceful, safe, fun place designed very specifically

for... Kids that were underprivileged or burn victims

or, you know, sick kids, make-a-wish kids.

Yes, I have literally been in every corner, every closet.

You know, I kind of joke with people good-naturedly that I have literally

been under Michael Jackson's bed, you know, just pulling speaker wires.

I mean, there was that level of trust.

You know, was there a lock on Michael's bedroom?

Yeah, it's his bedroom.

I locked up my bedroom. If I was there to work, it's not like there were people

telling me, oh, Brad, you can't open that drawer. You can't open that closet.

You can't go.

There was none of that.

There was nothing that even hinted at, oh, wow, what is this guy

into? That Michaels, it was, you know, it was Shirley Temple and Disney music.

And it really was. That's what the guy dug.

Brad, now I read that you helped put a youth worker in prison after you learned

that they were harming children.

If you had any suspicions of Michael, would you have, I guess, reacted the

same way?

Yeah, I was in a completely different situation where somebody

that I knew and somebody that I was close with actually was harming

children. And I immediately, for lack of a better word, turned on that.

gentlemen.

And it's not something I dwell on, not something I talk about very much.

But when somebody wants to throw it in my face that, well, Brad's just

protecting his friend or whatever, no, that's not how I'm wired. I will take

anybody down that harms a child.

So I'm talking to Scott Roth.

who was one of Hollywood's top private investigators. He was the private

investigator for the defense in the Michael Jackson trial in 2005.

Did you ever find anything during your time working on the trial for the

defense when you thought, hang on, maybe I'm on the wrong team here?

Nope.

Nope.

And that segues into the real meat of the question. If I truly, for one-tenth

of one second, believed that Wade Robson was telling the truth, he wouldn't have

been my first witness.

The reason that we put him on first is because he was our strongest witness.

He was the most credible. He was the most believable.

When the prosecution goes, they go first. So when you call your first

witness, the prosecution's already put on their case.

They have, in their mind, have already hammered away at the jury going, guilty,

guilty, guilty, guilty, guilty.

So by the time you get your turn, the time you get your bite at the apple, the

first thing... you want to do is put on your strongest witness because the jury

sits there and they listen to your witness.

If you get a strong witness, the first thing they're going to think is, oh,

wait a minute. Okay, it's not so cut and dry.

Let's hear what else they have to say.

That's why you always, always, always start with your strongest witness.

In our case, that was Wade Robson.

Wade Robson had to get through three seasoned, experienced, intelligent

attorneys. How is it that when those three attorneys... was not a surprise

attack. Those three attorneys were very seasoned, experienced three attorneys

with cross-examination history under their belt.

Prosecutors got together the night before, prepared their attack.

How were they not able to break Wade Robinson? If you're trying to hide the

truth, you're going to waver, you're going to do whatever. They went hard on

Wade, a lot harder than they did on McCauley, and a lot harder than they did

on Brett Barnes, and simply because he was the first. And the reason he didn't

change his story is because he was telling the truth.

There's nothing to change.

In Leaving Neverland, James Safechuck tells a story where Michael had asked

him to testify.

He says he refused, which led Michael to get angry and they never spoke again.

Do you recall that situation? Do you recall James being asked to testify?

Jimmy Safechuck was never an issue during the trial.

We did no work on him. We did no preparation on him. He was not an issue.

He was never, ever, ever going to testify.

The court was never, ever going to allow him to testify.

The court, Judge Melville, took him out of the mix long before the trial

started. Bottom line is Jimmy Stachuk was never, ever going to talk to

anybody. So whatever all of this nonsense is about, it's about personal

grief.

Now, from my understanding of Michael, It appears that he surrounded himself

with children because they saw a friend.

Adults. Dollar signs.

Opportunities. Opportunities. What do you think his mindset towards

surrounding himself with children? Was it exactly that? He saw people that

weren't going to take advantage, screw him over.

It was beyond that. It was living vicariously through people. He didn't

have a childhood.

He was in the studio all the time.

He would ask us, me and my brothers, he would say, when we would talk to him

about a birthday party, he would be so intrigued. He'd be like, what was it

like?

Now I want to talk about something that's mentioned in the film, Leaving

Neverland. They mention love faxes from Michael.

I've got what the notes say here.

One of the faxes, the love faxes, say, Hello, Doo-Doo. You are the best of the

kid dancers.

Keep on towards perfection.

You are now inspiring me to get better.

Another one of the faxes says, Make me happy, little one, and be the best. I

love you.

Now, as someone who knew Michael, as you say, so well,

Do these notes sound like him grooming this family? No, no.

And there's hundreds, oh, I wouldn't say hundreds, but there's tens and tens of

us that have these notes.

You've got some of the notes.

I have these, my brothers have these, you know.

He was like that. If he thought his words could help you or inspire you, he

would write you a letter.

There's this note here.

That where he says Uncle Doodoo. He calls himself Uncle Doodoo, of course.

Yeah, he calls himself Uncle Doodoo to us a lot. In this note, he's calling

Wade Doodoo.

Yeah.

It's nothing uncommon about it, but in the wrong context.

And when it's sinister context, people that don't know him or that don't know

the context of it will look at it and be like, well, that's weird.

This one says, please rehearse. Yeah. I'm proud of you. I love you all, yeah.

These are just really notes of encouragement.

Yeah.

I have a poster that he wrote, you know, you are the world and the world is

yours, you know. He would like that. He would like that. And that's, I think,

the magic of him too. He was always wanting you to be the best person you

could be. I want to talk about a situation that happened between Wade and

a Cirque du Soleil show. Of course, there's a Cirque du Soleil show in

Vegas. Now, in May 2011, a couple of years before the show premiered, Wade

sent an email to the creative team at Cirque stating, and I quote, I always

wanted to do this MJ show badly.

He then goes on in this email to say, I know that I am meant to do this show.

I am passionate to do this show. I want to make it amazing for me, for you, for

Serp, and of course, for Michael.

The gig ended up going to Jamie King.

Jamie King, yes. Obviously, he didn't get the gig. I want to read the

timeline. I've got a timeline here.

May 2011 sent that email asking for the gig. July 2011 interview, he stated that

he was starting on the show.

I'm starting on...

Cirque du Soleil Michael Jackson show, which is exciting and terrifying all at

the same time because it's such a huge responsibility.

Sometime after that, Jamie King got the gig.

Late 2012, Wade starts drafting a book about the alleged abuse. No publisher

picks it up.

First of May 2013, Wade files a civil lawsuit against the Michael estate for

monetary compensation with claims of childhood sexual abuse.

16th of May 2013, Wade goes public with the allegations on television.

A week later, May 23rd, 2013, Michael Jackson won the Cirque du Soleil star.

It seems a little bit.

You know, it seems a little. When you lay it out. When you lay it out like

that. People, you know, you need to lay it out like that to people. Otherwise,

they don't see it. They don't see the motivation of why he's doing certain

things. And, of course, in between there, there was Julian's Auctions. In

2011, yeah. In 2011, who have tweeted that Wade wanted to stay anonymous.

Yeah. He was selling some of his most, I guess, prized possessions. So it seems

like during this time, and Wade has said that during this time, he was having a

mental breakdown. But it seems like a bit of a fine. natural crisis as well.

Yeah, he took the easy way. Are there any other times post-Michael passing

where he asked to be part of a Jackson project?

Well, there is the memorial.

The memorial. Yeah, the memorial was the first time.

After that, Wade wanted to see the kids again. And so I made that happen.

And it feels like a betrayal because...

Especially, I wish I could take it back. He was very thankful when it happened.

Joy even said at Havenhurst, my biggest fear is to lose contact with the family.

That, to me, it says it all.

Once they lost contact, once that search job ended, that was like the official,

you're cut off.

It's almost like a disgruntled employee.

I'm going to hurt you now.

When was... the last time you you saw either wade or the robson family you

mentioned the memorial but post that post that um i would see them i would

see the robson family often because we have a mutual friend we have a very

close mutual friend and so every christmas i would see chantelle and joy

uh this was the first time this past year,

2018 Christmas, that I was arriving with my wife and my baby. At a Christmas

party? At a Christmas party, and she was leaving.

Joy. No, Chantel. Chantel was leaving with her, I think it's her husband.

She had her head down when I said hi to her. And it told me a lot. It didn't

tell me a lot back then because I was just like, that's odd.

We've always been somewhat cordial.

But now knowing the situation, it makes sense.

Did you ever post-2013 say to anyone in the family, that was odd that Wade is

saying this now.

No. I've talked to people that were around them or friends of them, and

everyone has been somewhat trying to be supportive to Wade because they were

friends with him, but at the same time didn't believe him, or at least 100%

didn't believe him.

And I've made that statement in many interviews that if this is about Wade

and James Safechuck, and it's about their journey and their discovery and

whatever they want to say, it's like the reason they don't have a best friend

that they interviewed is because a best friend probably didn't want to be on

camera.

Charles Thompson is on the phone right now. He's a crime journalist and

investigative reporter who is based in the UK. He's been studying the Jackson

case for many years now.

Charles, some of Michael's fans have been quick to find some inconsistencies

within these guys' stories. Can you share some of those with me?

Yeah, well, of course, the glaring inconsistency to begin with is that both

of them have previously testified in Michael Jackson's favour.

Then you look into the history of their allegations since they came forward.

And they've repeatedly changed their stories since then. Wade Robson gives

various conflicting stories as to why he testified in 2005, beginning with, I

didn't realize that I'd been abused, and then changing into, did realize I'd been

abused, but...

I didn't want to be responsible for sending him to prison. And then evolving

into, I did realize that I'd been abused, but I was bullied and forced

into testifying by Michael Jackson's lawyers.

His story keeps changing. That's nothing to do with childhood trauma.

That's a very recent event that happened when he was an adult. And he still can't

get his story straight.

I think the most important thing for people to know, the film starts off

quite convincingly.

By presenting the viewer with a lot of evidence that substantiates the early

part of the story, about meeting Michael Jackson, about hanging out with him for

the first time, they're playing home movies, they're showing you photographs,

and so they're luring you in and getting you to believe in these guys' narrative.

by showing you evidence that corroborates that, yes, they did meet

and know Michael Jackson. But then as soon as it departs and takes the dark

turn and starts talking about abuse, what you notice is all of the evidence

just disappears.

For instance, when they start talking about going to Neverland and having

sleepovers, there is no evidence of this. And you have to go to the court

documents to find the evidence which either corroborates or undermines these

allegations, and the evidence overwhelmingly undermines it.

I've also seen some claims that James Safechuck stories have been copied from

a book.

Can you confirm that? Is there any truth to that?

Well, it's a matter of interpretation.

So there's a guy called Victor Gutierrez.

In the 90s, he published a book which was called Michael Jackson Was My Lover,

and which said on the cover that it was based on the secret diary of Geordie

Chandler. It's basically, it's almost like a Fifty Shades of Grey for

paedophiles. It's like a piece of erotic literature about Michael Jackson

supposedly having sex many, many times with Geordie Chandler. And many of the

details from that book are very similar to details from James Safechuck's

allegations, even though that book was completely dismissed by the Chandler

family who said it was a work of fiction and that they had nothing to do with it.

So it is suspicious.

I don't think it's substantiated. I wouldn't stake my reputation on it and

go as far as to say that Save Chuck has copied the book, but there are notable

similarities.

So here are some of the similarities between James Safechuck's lawsuit and

this book.

Pages 57 and 58 of the book mentions Michael rented movies with historic and

foreign themes that featured minors participating in lewd acts. Safechuck's

lawsuit paragraph 60 says that Michael showed him foreign books and movies that

featured minors engaging in the same lewd acts mentioned in the book. Another

similarity. Page 40 of the book says that Jackson was jealous of a girl that

Jordan Chandler liked. Paragraph 39 of Safechuck's lawsuit.

says Jackson was jealous of Safechuck's crush on Sheryl Crow, who was Michael's

backup singer at the time.

Pages 37 and 38 of the book says that when going to sleep with Michael, Jordan

Chandler noticed that Michael put a bandage over his nose to hold it in

place. Safechuck's lawsuit paragraph 24 says before going to sleep, Safechuck

noticed Michael used a bandage to cover his nose.

In the book, page 80, it says Michael made the children drink alcohol. In

Safechuck's lawsuit, paragraph 60, it says Michael made Safechuck drink

alcohol. Book pages 21 and 22, it says that Jordan Chandler was jealous of

Brett Barnes, who was Michael Jackson's friend at the time, who to this day says

that nothing happened between them.

In Safechuck's lawsuit, paragraph 62, Safechuck was jealous of Brett Barnes.

Now, those are just a few of the similarities there. There are a few

more, but due to the graphic nature of them, I'm not going to be sharing them.

Obviously, this is all alleged, but it's hard to deny that this book shares many

similarities with James Safechuck's lawsuit and stories.

This just gets wilder every single day.