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If I were to ask you to extrapolate in

the world of tomorrow 10 years from now

from a very capitalistic lens is a huge

population a boon or a win.

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Can you sleep, Bill, if you drink coffee

so late at night? It might delay my

going to sleep a little bit, but it'll

keep me energized. So, uh, I have a long

flight, so I

get the sleep is always complicated.

You're always in a hurry when you're in

India. It's so much nicer to spend time

with you when you're not in India. Why

is that? Um, well, I'll organize some of

my trips where I take time off here. uh

you know, next year we're talking about

that I'll go up to a psalm and they tell

me that's pretty nice. So hopefully I'll

schedule a couple days uh for just pure

relaxation. But when I'm working, you

know, it's it's great to see there's so

many new innovators here. Uh we did

manage to pack the schedule. You know,

there's a lot of ministries that we have

partnerships with. I think I saw more

ministers this time than ever before,

but it was they were all great meetings,

right? It's been a fun trip. We did a

thing with Sachin. I guess it's your

production company or something that

helped put together a very creative uh

So, you played cricket first time? Well,

we we were on a tennis court and so we

were hitting balls with the cricket

bracket and the tennis. We were kind of

making fun of the the the two different

sports. Uh so that that that was

relaxing. Yeah. So, we met recently in

Switzerland and I asked you many things

off camera.

Uh, so I spent the last week reading

source code. Oh, thanks. Yeah, it took

me a long time. I read much slower than

you. I presume it took me 14 15 hours.

So, my time in the car, on my flight, in

all my travel and before going to bed

has been source code. So I know more

about you now than I have ever.

Fantastic.

So a lot of what is in the book, Bill,

it's a great book. I I would recommend

everybody read it. But a lot of what is

in the book is also something I might

expect of Bill Gates. Like my childhood

was very different in the sense that

when you used to sneak out of home when

your parents went to bed, you went to a

computer laptop,

right? Yes. That was I I was very lucky.

I got to use computers a lot even in

high school. So what isn't in the book,

Bill? you know, the book I I feel like

I, you know, was pretty frank about uh

you know, the challenges my parents felt

raising me and uh you know, how

uh my originally I was not a very good

student. You know, at least I wasn't

getting good grades and then I

eventually it bugged me that people

thought maybe I wasn't that smart. So, I

just said, "Okay, I guess I should get

good grades."

uh you know I got in trouble at Harvard

uh when I was doing first using the

computer and but you got you got into

trouble almost for using the computer

without the requisite permission from

the administrator but that's not really

trouble you know what I mean I was at

the time it felt like it might be uh you

know cuz they uh they were acting pretty

tough um but you I'm not somebody who

had a traumatic childhood that explains

my

you know whatever energ energy or

ambition I have. I had a great

childhood. You know I had some conflict

with my mother where she would try to

get me to you know fit what she wanted.

And you know in a sense she succeeded in

in making me want to exceed even her

expectations. So there's some energy

that I got, you know, from trying to uh,

you know, get my freedom or impress her.

Um, but I'd say the simple story is that

it, you know, it's almost ideal. I wish

everybody had the stability. Uh, you

know, my dad was really, uh, terms of

his values. You know, he'd grown up in a

very poor household. his father had only

gone to sixth grade. Um, and and yet he

was very sophisticated, always calm

about everything. It's nice having

parents who are calm.

So I I rightly or wrongly have made this

presumption of

late that very successful, very many

successful

entrepreneurs do not necessarily come

from well-rounded families. Uh when I

read the book I could I could see that

your mom your mother was projecting

Kennedy's almost the idealistic family.

She was in charity. Your dad was in law.

Uh also very

interestingly you speak about your mom a

lot as when you're younger. Your dad

shows up much later in life at least in

the writing and your sisters even after

that. Is that

how you felt their importance at

different points in your life? It was

your mom when you were a kid, your dad

when you were significantly older. Well,

my dad worked very long hours, so he

would leave even before we had breakfast

most mornings. He'd head off to work. Uh

when he came home, that was when we had

dinner. Uh my parents were out uh

socializing in ways that were helpful to

my dad's career three or four nights a

week. And so my dad um until later was a

wasn't interacting with me that much. I

mean, he would I'm sure he would talk to

my mom about what was going on, but you

know,

uh, the fact that he set a good example

influenced me and,

um, you know, the values that he had.

But no, my my mom was the the key

relationship. My sisters, I could have

talked more about them. Uh, you know, I

have one sister who's a bit older and

the other one's nine years behind me. So

when I'm a senior, you know, which is

the last time I'm at the house, uh, you

know, she's a third grader. So we had a

fun relationship, but not,

uh, you know, more than just playful,

uh, until we're both adults.

So would I be wrong in my presumption

that success in the capitalistic world

of today is somehow

bred by one form of adversity or another

in childhood? Well, I think if you look

at the Steve Jobs story, you know, he's

adopted

uh you know, his parents uh kept his

sister and they didn't keep him. And so

he ends up with a pretty negative view

towards his his father his uh

biological uh

father. You know, Elon Musk had a a

fairly uh complicated father, you know,

who would was apparently very tough on

him. So often when you see people who

are, you know, high achievers, there's

some, you know, something they're trying

to prove. In my case, you really don't

have that. I mean, the

only negative thing that happens to me

in my childhood is one of my friends,

uh, Kent Evans, uh, died when I was 16

and he was 17.

But, you know, I was already, uh, you

know, my energy and ambition, you know,

had already been set. So, I don't, you

know, wouldn't say that was connected.

So it is I think some people are

surprised you know where did I get this

desire in my 20s to be you know compared

to everybody else who was starting

software companies I mean by my

standards they were quite lazy

um

also having known you a little bit and

having read the book

now this one quality that you have where

you're able to put your head

down focus and cram many hours of work

at one go

or be not cognizant to the things

happening in the world around you but

focused on one thing. Where does that

come from? I know in the last part of

your book you spoke about how today you

might be diagnosed as autistic and is it

that or is it is it some kind of drive

which is coming from somewhere else? I

think there's a a strong genetic

component to that ability to focus.

uh you know particularly as people get

older their willingness to be very

confused and just live with their

confusion you know and and until they

really figure it out uh they almost you

know give yourself a hard time and you

know think about why can't I understand

this

uh you know I think that's that's

something I was lucky

uh from nature, you know,

um

my my parents didn't push me to be that

way. And it was there, you know, pretty

early on, you know, even the thing where

it was fascinating to me that my

grandmother was so much better at cards

than I was. And I had to think a long

time to figure out, okay, she is running

a

a a state machine. She is remembering

every card that goes by. And if you

remember every card that goes by, okay,

there is uh an impact on all these

different card games because we played a

lot of different games. Um and she would

never, you know, kind of give it away.

She sort of forced me to to think it

through on my own. So, that's an early

sign that yeah, I I can go off and kind

of ignore uh uh what's going on. And,

you know, I'm very lucky uh even at, you

know, this age, if somebody hands me a a

new book about something, I'll, you

know, shut the door and four hours

later, hopefully I've I've I've been

able to get through it.

Somebody really smart was telling me

that to be a hero you either need to be

or inspiring or

relatable. Do you think Silicon Valley

or the tech moguls in the

US

are using vulnerability to transition

from or inspiring?

But in a condens, this might sound a

little condescending, not that I mean

it, robot-like behavior to more

humanlike personas. Like if you look at

Mark Zuckerberg with him, you know,

wearing his new clothes, his chain, his

watch.

Uh is the world going that way where you

don't want that cleancut or inspiring

hero anymore? You need something more

relatable and people are showcasing

their vulnerabilities to meet that end.

Well, I don't think, you know, I think

Mark sincerely

likes extreme sports. Uh,

and, you know, he really

does, you know, engage in that. I never

found that uh all that attractive. So, I

think he's being genuine. Um, you know,

he's a great family person.

um you know he's he's he's still pretty

young. He just turned 40, which nowadays

I have to consider that uh a young

person. You know, I'm I I

think the the people who get to know you

are the people either your family or the

people who work with you very

closely. And you know, take for example,

Steve Jobs. He was tough on himself. uh

he did have the most unbelievable sense

of people just in an intuitive way and

of of good design, you know, so his

skills and mine don't even overlap that

much. He was not an engineer and I'm not

a design person. I wish I was a design

person and I don't know if he wished he

was an engineer. He was good at picking

engineers and so Apple uh you know

really distinguished itself but it

wasn't it wasn't an act um he he was a

natural uh I had to learn how to give

speeches and uh all that and you know

even at my best I'm not uh as much of a

speech giver as he was. Um so he's

pretty singular I would say.

Um, you know, maybe Elon in his in a

different way is is kind of singular. I

think of Mark as a pretty normal person

actually. Uh, you know, he's got a great

wife, you know, very serious about his

kids. You just said that Steve Jobs was

maybe too hard on himself. Are you hard

on yourself, Bill? Why are you running

around so much meeting all the

politicians and everything? No, I think

if you want to, you know, work hard and

not fool yourself, you better be pretty

hard on yourself. Uh, and Steve was, uh,

tough on himself. And it makes you at

first maybe not a very good manager

because you tend to manage people like

you manage yourself where you're just so

tough on them. And you know for me that

meant that in my early days I could get

a lot out of people who were like me and

you know so I probably missed some

people who were very different than me

that could have been you know part of

the company. We were fairly homogeneous,

very engineering oriented group. And it

took a while before I realized, okay,

somebody who's a good salesperson or a

good manager, you know, may not be good

at the way I think of IQ. IQ is much

more varied. Talent is more varied than

I realized. You know, I sort of thought,

well, if you can do math, you can do

anything. And if you can't do math, then

you can't do anything. That's how simple

uh that initial thing was. So I was you

know it took me a lot of time uh to

develop as a manager. You know I think

as I moved to the foundation it was very

important that I blend in people who

like to work in the field in Africa with

great scientists with great people who

work with government. So I you know I

was able to take the mistakes I'd made

and learnings from Microsoft and um

bring that to the foundation but you

know the why I I chose

uh to work so hard in my 20s I mean I I

love the work I think 20s I get Bill the

question is today oh today yeah well

it's optional um it is a lot of fun. I

get to work

with smart people. I'm learning all the

time.

I, you know, I get to travel the world.

The world is Haven't you traveled the

world already? You know, in my Microsoft

work, I went to Africa. I went to South

Africa once and Egypt once. And so

basically, you know, they don't buy much

software in Africa. They buy some, but

it's not now, you know, Africa's, you

know, huge. uh in in what I do. So I'

I've been exposed to different parts. So

uh I certainly got to meet a lot of

people that I'd never met at Microsoft.

Yeah. If I were to ask you to

extrapolate with no

filters since you know more about AI

than I will ever u in the world of

tomorrow 10 years from now from a very

capitalistic

lens is a huge population a boon or a

bin

the let's say 20 years from

now AI will have changed things enough

that you know the just this pure

capitalistic framework probably won't

explain much because as AI's both as

sort of white collar type work and as

bluecollar work as the robots will get

good hands and are able to

do the physical things that that humans

do say working in a factory or

construction or you know going cleaning

a a hotel room uh which you know the

hands have to be awfully good uh to do

those things. we'll we'll achieve that

and we'll have a lot

of the making the goods and services

which is always we've always had a

shortage a shortage of doctors of

teachers of people to work in the

factories those shortages won't exist

and so it's it's a pretty profound

change that will free up a lot of time

you know you can retire early you can

work shorter work weeks And it's going

to require almost a philosophical

rethink about okay how should time be

spent because we don't need it to make

enough food and make enough widgets and

uh you know do enough medical diagnosis

we will have created you know free

intelligence you know in my day it was

about computing was expensive it became

free now it's intelligence like a

doctor's intelligence is scarce you know

India

has more doctors than Africa, but still

not nearly as many as it should. But AI

uh will come in and provide, you know,

medical

uh IQ and there won't be a shortage. Uh

that's and it's hard for those of us,

you know, in my case spending almost 70

years in a year in a world of shortage

to even adjust my mind because you know

what are markets about? Markets are

about scarce resources and a price is

okay. You know, you get the employee

because you're willing to pay pay them

more. And

um so, you know, I find myself trying to

understand that future world, but uh it

hasn't come into focus for me. And I I I

enjoy engaging experts about okay, what

does the economy look like? and and how

will we choose to use the the freedom

that will come and you know even if I'm

wrong say it's 30 years that's not a

very long time I mean my uh kids and

certainly my grandkids uh a lot of their

life will be in that that very changed

world

this economist John Maynard kins u I

think the American model is largely

kenasian where they print money the

antithesis to hayek almost he said this

many decades ago that the real

question is what will the world do if

one did not have to work if you had to

like extrapolate one statement in 30 40

50 how many ever years what do we do if

we don't have to work I don't have to

work uh and so uh I I choose to work um

because uh yeah because it's fun you

know I take more vacation than I did

when I was young but uh it's still, you

know, basically full full-time work. And

but it's if you had that your whole

life, it's different than being able to

retire early. I mean, at least we, you

know, have a period of working and then,

you know, if you said everybody could

retire at at

40, you know, how radical is that? Um

maybe not not that radical. Um but if

you said you never need to work at least

to me I have what you know that that is

so

different I think another very

interesting question is if we all don't

work do we get the same humans

inherently are competitive with their

peer groups I think so if I don't work

say we are born tomorrow me you

him we all don't work but we are bestow

bestowed upon with the same resources

and same social position. Will that work

for us? Will No, I

I your your point's a good one. We want

to differentiate

uh you know whether it's for our own ego

or to be attractive or uh it's so we we

are so adapted to this world of

shortage.

uh that you know

maybe you know we'll create competitions

in you know creativity or you know maybe

we'll take some part of human activity I

mean an extreme cases we're not going to

have robots play cricket you know that's

boring we'll let we'll reserve that just

for the humans even if the robots could

be you know way way better that's that's

not interesting and So what

activities might a country say no we're

reserving this you know nurses are going

to be humans or

uh you know psychiatrists

uh you know are we're going to you know

decide that the that and so we might

artificially

uh ignore the fact that the the machines

can

uh can substitute for some of that.

It's it'll really, you know, get down to

the core of of human instinct. Yeah, we

will figure out a hierarchy. May may not

be the current one, but another way to

segregate ourselves. Yes. The idea of,

you know, pure communism that everybody,

you know, is is totally the same. That's

a pretty unnatural

behavior for for humans. needs a lot of

trust of a model like that to work and I

think as the group gets larger trust is

often not there

inherently you've been the richest man

in the world for a very long time

Bill you've probably had access to

everybody for a long long time I'm

talking world leaders

philosophers people at the cutting edge

of

everything what do you know that I I

don't like one thing what have you

learned

by having lived in your shoes. I know a

lot about science.

You know, I've seen a lot of successful

people um and you know, learn the habits

um that they have. I do think you

develop

um instincts about, you know, who to

hire, who to partner with just from

mistakes and uh you know, pattern

matching, you know, and I' I've been

super lucky people like Warren Buffett

who comes from a very

different

expertise than mine, you know, he and I

have bonded over, you know, sharing

ideas and kind of common view of how

things work in the world and he he is on

a lot of things just his wisdom has has

been a huge help to me

not so much about business but more

about life well it's certainly you know

the decisions you make about your

personal life probably affect your

happiness uh you know I know super

successful people who aren't that happy

uh and you know

didn't apply their

uh weren't able to map their incredible

intelligence on to

uh having a great uh relationship with

their kids or uh you know their extended

family.

So it is human capability is is very

strange that you can't

uh you know like my friend Paul Allen

um you know he was wonderful he was key

to the success of Microsoft but he

actually didn't end up enjoying himself

um you know he felt like maybe people

were going to take advantage of him and

that that's you know this is a guy

who had everything and yet it didn't

didn't really create

uh comfort or uh the happiness he he

deserved. When people ask me what drives

me, uh I mean I'm

a I'm much less wise, experienced all of

those things, but in my own little

bubble, some people do ask me what

drives me.

I used to stupidly

say whenever someone asked me how you

got lucky or how you did well in life,

my go-to answer used to be luck, which

was never the truth because I think we

all

have all humans I think have a inflated

sense of

self subconsciously deep deep down like

if I were to put 100 people in a room

and ask how many of you are smarter than

the majority I I would presume 99%. % or

89% of the room say yes. Maybe that's a

slight exaggeration but I think the

point holds but when I were to think

about what drives me

deeply in the beginning I think it was

just money. I feel like I didn't have

money. I wanted money because my

conditioning my years growing up looking

at the people around me with money they

looked happy. I think money transitioned

into relatively more power, jealousy,

insecurity, seeking validation,

different drivers for different parts of

my

life. And today I'm flirting with this

notion like I'm part of your pledge and

I I spend time with you every year on

the offsite. And I don't know if you

remember but last year I was asking

these same questions because I genuinely

do not know the answer. At times I might

feel

altruistic. At times I might feel like

there is no point to more but at other

times I will go back to the very

relative nature of things and

competition kicks in and I want

more. Uh what I've wanted from our

conversation today, it's more a question

for me than it is for other people is

this concept of motivational pluralism

in a way where I can be motivated by

different things at different points of

time. I might also want to make money,

but I might also want to give away

money. I think you're at the forefront

of that. Would you like to like share

your thoughts on that? How does it make

sense to want to make money while you

want to also give away money? Well, even

giving away money can be very

egotistical. There's certainly ego

involved. There is a high. I mean, you

know, Ted Turner uh used to say that uh

the Forbes list was which ranks people

on their wealth was a bad thing because

people would hesitate to give away money

because they wouldn't uh achieve some

rank on the on the Forbes list. And I

think he had had a valid point there.

You can never do anything that's totally

pure. Mhm. Um because if it's really

deeply moral then a little bit you think

oh people will will praise that and so

you know is it ego or not?

Um you know in the end the the work you

know like the work we've done with

vaccines. Yeah.

Um, you know, whether that was my ego or

not, it, you know, it's a it's a real

thing that happened. Um, you know, I I

remember when I left Microsoft thinking,

gosh, if it gets messed up, it's going

to screw up my mind. Should I go back or

not go back? And I'm so lucky that, you

know, Steve did a very good job and now

Satcha is doing uh a very good job. So,

I haven't had to worry about that. It

also helped that that made my Microsoft

stock uh valuable enough that even

though I given away

uh a a lot, you know, I still uh you

know, I'm not nearly as as rich as as

some, but I'm in the top 20. Um and

that's great. You know, I'm over the

next 20 years I'll I'll be able to give

a lot away. But even that's not doesn't

get you out of the why the why do I I do

it. Um I find like I don't feel

altruistic. I feel like even when you

quietly do something good in terms of

giving away money which does something

for

someone, it is almost more intoxicating

than a capitalistic pursuit which is

making money. So they're both highs.

Now, if I don't know which high is more

appealing to me at which point of time,

how do you switch between the two?

You know, philanthropy isn't quite as

competitive. I mean, you know, creating

a

company, you know, that

uh it's pretty stark

because, you know, there might be some

category that if you get scale, you

know, the other people just fall by the

wayside. You know, it's not like you end

up splitting. It's it's you know when we

did Microsoft Office there were quite a

few companies that were in that space

that literally

we they went away. Uh

and you know we we competed with Google

over the mobile phone operating system

and we fell behind and you know today

nobody remembers there was a a Windows

mobile thing. It's just Android for

non-Apple phones. It's basically all

Android. That was a winner take all

thing. And so when you get into one of

those, you actually activate not only

ego, but a little bit of fear. Uh and

you know, certainly in my 20s and 30s,

I that was part of it, which is

wow, you know, I think I'm pretty good

at this, but you know, have I just made

that up? Uh am I really good? Will I be

re revealed that I, you know, didn't do

a good job?

Uh, I've gotten past that now. I don't

think I'm motivated by uh a a fear, but

it's it was fascinating to me that, you

know, I would when we would go on

company retreats for Microsoft, it would

bother me that the other leaders didn't

think our survival was at risk. I was

always coming up with no we have to

worry about this, we have to worry about

this because it was my whole life and I

have to say leaving

um and moving to the foundation made my

life a little bit more sane because I

wasn't always conjuring up the okay it

could you know all uh you know

completely blow up and so you know I

engaged every emotion to drive myself in

my 20s.

So, I was having lunch with my team

today, Bill. They're all like a bunch of

them are 21, 23, 24.

And even at 38, I'm so disconnected with

how they think their their version of

reality in a way. Whenever we've

whenever I've seen you for a meal,

lunch, dinner, beat, whatever, there's

always wine. They say that people are

like the vintage of wine from the year

that they're born in. So let's say you

were born in year X and you're from that

vintage. What assumption of the world

today or the youth of the world today do

you think that you have which is not

fully true?

And how do you look at the world today

but it doesn't resonate for the youth of

today? Yeah. Well, it's nice to have

your kids give you a hard time because

you get a little bit of uh realizing,

wow, uh there's a different way of

looking at things. You know, some things

like I'm very email ccentric, which my

my youngest daughter thinks is so

laughable. Uh and you know, when she

sends me a text, I don't respond in five

minutes, and she's like, "What's wrong

with you, uh, Dad?" And I I'm not going

to change it. I'm sorry. I'm I'm kind of

stuck in my uh email centric ways. Uh

you know, so I'll I'll just have to live

with that.

Um you know,

I

I you know, I was very lucky the insight

that computing would become

free. You know, for my generation, there

were very few people who saw that. Uh,

and so I, you know, I had an advantage

because that implied a lot of things

that that Microsoft could get out in in

front of. Now, this this current

revolution in a way, everybody kind of

sees it coming. Uh, it's almost too wild

to be true, but yes, it's it's not like

there's only a small

community who sees AI coming. And I'm

I'm not sure, do the young people have

an anticipation of what it's going to be

like better.

Um, I hope so because they're the ones

who, you know, be in charge and and and

have to deal with it. I think it's a

rate of change that's greater than most

most periods of history. you know, when

we made in the US, you know, when we

went from 50% farmers to 2%

farmers, it you could still farm your

whole generation. And it was your

children that stopped being farmers, you

know, because it happened over 60-year

period. We go from a very high

percentage down

here, you know, even within a

generation,

uh, you know, certain skills are aren't

going to be as as needed. So, I think

that's a pretty wild thing uh to be to

be changing things, you know, and and

you're it's nice to surround your pe

yourself with with young people

uh you know, and have their insights. Of

course, your customers aren't all young,

so you have to, you know, stay in touch

with what they're thinking as well.

If I may pay you a compliment bill,

after having spent time with you for a

few

years, I feel like you

care lesser today about what people

think about you and that is making you

increasingly more appealing to the youth

and I think that comes out in your book

as well. No, I mean if anybody can

afford to not, you know, think about,

you know, there are people who like me

more than there should, there are people

who hate me more than they should. I

mean, it's, you know, a wild mix, you

know, including crazy conspiracies. Uh,

and so I do think with age, your ego

needs go down a bit. Um, your desire to

help others succeed versus just

yourself. uh you know you get a little

bit they call it gener more generative

and uh sharing advice. Um having kids

helps with that a lot and

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um you know so I should have the luxury

of not uh worrying about these things

you know ironically I think that is the

definition of cool for the youth today

not caring

Thank you, Bill. Thank you for doing

this. And I think I'm seeing you next

year. No, great to see you. And uh yeah,

so you're coming to the giving pledge.

Oh, perfect. Uh no, it's always fun to

see you there. And yeah, uh thanks. This

was a blast. Thank you.

Actually want to ask you some advice. So

I'm feeling like I'm losing out on the

whole AI world. So I want to go take a

job somewhere in the US or an internship

unpaid. Where would you suggest it? How

do I go about being in the forefront of

that world just in terms of learning the

implications not so much the development

of you know with all your business

experience maybe the open AI guys would

have some role where you would be super

valuable to them that you'd be getting

that exposure. I mean that's the most

intense those guys. Yeah, it's wild. Uh,

and they're very good guys. Boy, are

they surfing surfing the wave.

What's WTF?

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