All language subtitles for Awakening Yuval Noah Harari

[Music]

Welcome everyone to a Clear Mountain

Monastery conversation. We're very happy

to have Yuvall and Noah Harrari joining

us today. So Yuvall, thank you so much

for taking the time. Thank you for

inviting me. So I'll just read a very

short bio. So Noah Harrari is a

historian, philosopher, and bestselling

author of Sapiens, Homodus, 21 Lessons

for the 21st century, and his newest

book, Nexus. His books have sold over 45

million copies in 65 languages, making

him one of the world's most influential

intellectuals. Born in Israel in 1976,

he earned his PhD from Oxford and has

lectured at the Hebrew University of

Jerusalem. most relevant for our

conversation today. Yuvall is a

long-term meditator having set his first

going of vipasa retreat at the age of 24

I believe and he maintains a daily

sitting practice of two hours a day and

each year we'll try to do a 30 or 60day

meditation

retreat. So yeah, just jumping in to

that vein of things. um curious if you

could talk about how that first your

first meditation retreat changed your

life and maybe describe for people who

don't know what a uh Goinka retreat

looks like.

Um at the time I was doing my PhD in

history at

Oxford. Uh but I was also looking for

um to understand the the the deep cause

of of misery not in an in a theoretical

way but but of really of the misery in

my life. It was quite a a a miserable

period for me and I couldn't find any

satisfying answers in all the books and

articles that that I read in all the

philosophical discussions I had with

people in the lectures at the

university. Um it seemed like humans

have no

idea what life is all about.

what is the cause of suffering and what

could be done about it. And I had a

friend who constantly nagged me for more

than a year to go and try a meditation

retreat. And um it was quite annoying,

but he kept it he was very persistent

and I didn't I I I I had no idea what

meditation is. I thought it was some

kind of mystical ritual that

um he has nothing for me there. But

eventually I I became so desperate that

I said why not. And what really

attracted me it's it's a bit is that

when when I began to show more interest

he sent me this friend uh uh the code of

conduct of of the meditation retreat.

Previously didn't really talk too much

about what I have to do there. He sent

me the code of conduct and it says that

you have to be silent for 10 days and

for many people this is a huge barrier.

I mean there are many people who have

this idea that oh vip the pasan

meditation this is silence it's not for

us but for me this was the the main

attraction again I thought the

meditation itself it's it's probably

some kind of mystical nonsense but 10

days of silence there was something like

irresistible in in that idea and I

went

and the very first day I was absolutely

kind of literally mind boggled. My mind

was boggled was kind of I was astounded.

No, the the the practice was extremely

simple. In the first days of the

retreat, uh Guena just instructs the

students to focus all the attention on

the breath coming in and out of the

nostrils and just feel when the breath

is coming in and when it's going out.

And it sounded like, you know, the

easiest thing in the world. And I

couldn't do it for more than 10

seconds. Uh my mind would constantly run

somewhere and I was

astounded how little I knew about my

mind that I have no control of it that I

don't understand it. You know, I thought

I was a very intelligent person. I was

doing my PhD at Oxford. I read all these

philosophy books but I really didn't

know anything uh about my mind and how

it

works and Guena kept

uh

saying that just observe the reality as

it is. If your mind wanders away it's

perfectly

fine. This is the reality of the present

moment that at the present moment your

mind is very agitated and it it it runs

away to thoughts to memories to fantasy.

This is the reality and this instruction

just observe the reality as it is. There

is no judgment. There is no fire plane

you need to to to reach. There is no

goal. You just need to be with the with

the reality of the present moment. This

was kind of the first instruction that I

that I got in that first day of

meditation and I still think it's the

most important thing anybody ever told

me. Um and and and it completely changed

my life and also my my my work. I don't

think I would have been able to to to

write the books like like Sapiens or

Nexus without the the clarity and the

balance that the meditation provided or

I I don't think I would have been able

to deal with all you know the the

tensions and the issues that

success and and fame and public

attention brings with it.

So um I think that that's

that's gives some taste of of what again

for me was I think that the most

important thing I I ever did in my life

was go to that first first retreat.

admit that as a as a monk, it's it's

actually quite touching to hear someone

speak about, you know, the Buddha's

teachings and the practice as

um you know, such a public figure as uh

speak about the teachings in such a

powerful way. And I'm curious, you're

speaking about the moment of learning to

put down stories

and Goa, you know, has been so skillful

in framing the teachings in a way that's

quite palatable to a modern secular

audience. um as a putting down a story

so that you can see them more

clearly. But as you do step deeper into

kind of this this world um you realize

there is another story um you know the

Buddha and the polycanon and the

teachings as a whole ecosystem and

landscape. So I'm curious, you know, how

is your what's your relationship like

with that kind of that vista of the

polycanon and Buddhism beyond just um

say the the meditation retreat it

itself? How has that evolved? And would

you characterize yourself as a Buddhist

actually?

Um I I don't think so. I mean, I

know a from my day job as a historian

how traditions and religions develop

over centuries and thousands of

years, how they

accumulate this layer upon layer of of

stories and sometimes mythologies and

traditions and rituals and it becomes so

difficult to know what is the

um what was really the original teaching

and what was added

later. Um people always project back so

many things.

For me, what made it uh um easy to say

coexist with all these stories and

mythologies and and rituals

is is again this emphasis that maybe

comes from Guena and maybe is not part

of the tradition. But this is how I got

acquainted with this with the tradition

on the reality of the present moment.

What is the reality? what is actually

happening. And the idea that just

believing a story, just believing a

theory won't help you. It could be true

or it could be false. Even if you

believe a true story, simply believing

it changes nothing.

Um

and

the I I I remember in in several of the

instructions that Goena again repeatedly

said every every dity is

miti every belief every view is wrong

view that if you just hold on to the

view oh I believe in this so this means

I'm a good person and such and such

wonderful things will happen to me just

because I believe in this story then you

you haven't understood

anything at least this is the way that

he uh put it and this is still my basic

attitude that uh it's it's less in

contrast to say monotheistic traditions

especially Christianity and and Islam

which place enormous emphasis on faith

that ultimately redemption, salvation

depends on believing the right thing.

And you know in Christianity uh at least

in Orthodox and Catholic Christianity

you had entire committees of

theologians and and and and church

leaders sitting together and and and

cobbling and and creating this credle

this very

complex

formula that you have to believe this

exact formula you know entire wars were

fought in Christian religion about one

word in this formula like is you have

the trinity you have the father son and

the holy spirit what is the relation

between

them are there different persons are

there three aspects of the same person

do they have the same essence so many

philosophical discussions that most

people don't

understand but you have the idea that if

I only say that I believe in the right

formula, this will save me forever.

And um for me this makes no sense.

One of the things I liked about Buddhism

is that you know belief to some extent

is of course important. If you don't

believe that going to a meditation

retreat will help you in some way, you

won't go there.

But the belief it in

itself doesn't do anything for you.

It's your ability to actually observe

the

reality without reaction, without

judgment, to just see things as they

are. This is what liberates.

you've all as you've as we're trying to

discern the difference between what's

truth and what is a story, you've talked

about just how we can see that uh

suffering is undeniably real on a

certain level. And that's that's the

first truth of you know the four noble

truths of Buddhism. What is your take on

the other three of the noble truths that

craving is the cause of suffering? That

there is a sessation there's a way to

completely transcend uh our mental

experience of suffering and that

following this eight-fold path of you

know uh harmlessness of body, speech and

mind of training the mind in uh right

right view and right understanding. um

that there's reality in these as well.

My understanding is this is not a credo.

This is not something that you kind of I

believe that there is suffering. I

believe that suffering has a has a

cause. No, it's about actually

practicing it, witnessing it. And it

starts with with the first noble truth

that you know most practitioners

including myself, we try to find a

shortcut around it.

And it's very common in my practice in

in practice of friends I talk with that

you sit for

meditation and you you think oh this is

not a good

meditation I'm not focused my mind is

all over the place or there is some very

strong pain in my in my back and I just

I just can't accept it I'm I'm resisting

the pain. This is not a good

meditation. And actually this is

potentially the best meditation in the

world because you are in the presence of

the first noble

truth that you now are witnessing

suffering and you witness the little

suffering of an agitated mind. You you

witness the little suffering of a mind

reacting to pain with with rejection.

And if if I can only be with that and

witness the first noble truth, oh this

is

suffering, then this is

liberation. And it's the same with with

the the other three noble truths like

craving is the arising of suffering.

I this is something that that I I I

sometimes witness directly like I sit

for meditation everything is okay and

after say 40 minutes or 50 minutes

suddenly a thought arises in the mind oh

it's probably almost

over and when it's over I'll be able to

go and eat or call my friend or do this

or do that and then it becomes a little

bit of misery because it's still not

over but my mind is already rolling in

this oh it's almost over it will soon be

over and I can do this and the the

moment that craving

arises misery

arises so that it's not some kind of

theory that I'm a good Buddhist because

I believe that craving is the source of

suffering but I can actually

witness that how the arising of craving

is simultaneous ously with it suffering

also arises.

So that's a very you know uh practical

and moment to moment and pract

practicable um sort of vision of of

meditation and this path. And it's

interesting because in 21 lessons for

the 21st century you end the whole book

with a chapter called meditation just

observe. And for such an expansive book

to end on, you know, such a practical

and um a practical note uh was

interesting and surprising and

heartening to me all at the same time.

And you know you talked about how you

were uh excited to have a interview that

wasn't just about AI but uh we are I am

curious

uh you've talked about hackable humans

and the importance of meditation in

humanity encountering this new era. So

why why is meditation important right

now? Why did you end that whole book on

that note? And has your view on the

importance and relevance of that chapter

or your optimism changed in the last

seven years since you wrote it?

So I think meditation only became more

important for me because of the AI

revolution. For me the biggest question

about AI is whether AI has

consciousness, whether it has the

capacity one day perhaps to develop

consciousness. I don't know the answer.

uh but I think it's the most important

question of all. Uh there is this huge

confusion in the AI community and in the

world at large between consciousness and

intelligence which is behind many of the

dangers that we now witness in the

world. To put put it very briefly,

intelligence is the ability to pursue

goals and overcome problems on the way

to the goal. Like you play chess, you

have a goal to take the opponent's king

and you have all kinds of obstacles on

the way because the opponent is doing

all kinds of of of things. And

intelligence is what enables you to

focus on the goal and overcome the

problems on the way. of you're driving a

car. So you have a goal to reach say the

train station and you have to navigate

there dealing with all kinds of issues,

traffic lights, pedestrians, other cars.

This is

intelligence and this is something that

as we all know AI is now able to do

better than us. It defeats us in chess.

It will soon drive better than us. It

has superior intelligence. But

consciousness is something else.

consciousness I would it's the ability

to feel things like pain and pleasure

and love and hate ultimately I think the

my definition of consciousness is simply

the capacity to

suffer a conscious entity a sentient

entity is an entity that has a capacity

to suffer and also of course to be

liberated from

suffering. Now the interesting thing

about the capacity to suffer because

then you can ask so what is suffering

and the best definition I've found in

both science and meditation for what is

suffering? Suffering is the rejection of

reality.

Like if you think about say a

thermostat measuring the temperature in

the room and maybe connected to a an air

conditioning unit. So a thermostat

measures that the room is now say

30° and then starts the air conditioning

unit to cool it

down. Uh so it made a decision. It has a

goal. It has some level of

intelligence the

thermostat but it has no consciousness.

It doesn't suffer. Even if you throw a

thermostat into a cauldron of boiling

water at 100°, if it's a good

thermostat, it will not break. It will

measure 100°. That's it. It will not

suffer because it doesn't reject the

reality. Suffering is something very

very strange that the only thing in the

universe that is capable of experiencing

as far as we know is consciousness. is

conscious being that you experience

something and even though it's the

reality of the present moment you

somehow nevertheless reject

it like you

experience it's

hot and you don't say oh I wish it will

be cooler tomorrow or in a minute but I

want it now not to be hot and this is

illogical

I mean it's now hot. You just measured

that it's hot. So how is it possible for

it not to be hot right now? You can take

all kinds of of actions so it will be

less hot later on. But right now it's

hot. There is nothing you can do about

it. So but the the suffering part is not

that it's hot is that I don't I don't I

reject it. I don't like it. And this is

also the difference between pain and

suffer. Pain is just a

sensation. You can feel pain and not

suffer. The suffering comes when there

is pain and I I refuse to to to I to

accept it that there is pain and what is

it in the universe that can reject

reality? What kind of thing can reject

reality? Um and this is again a big

question about AI also. Are they able to

reject

reality and and to

suffer? Now, another related question is

about truth and the pursuit of truth. A

lot of people, especially in Silicon

Valley, they hope that AI will reveal

the truth about the world. They think

that because it is highly

intelligent, it will pursue the truth.

They have they they create a link which

I think is a mistake between

intelligence and

truth. Maybe they make the mistake

because they themselves are highly

intelligent people. So they overv value

and overemphasis

intelligence. But I don't think that

intelligence is linked to truth. Human

beings are the most intelligent entities

on the planet as far as we know and they

are also the most delusional entities on

the

planet. Uh so if AI is super

intelligent, it could also be super

delusional. Why think that an

intelligent entity will pursue truth and

not say power? If AI learns from the

people who develop it, from the tycoons

of of Silicon Valley, then you know

children learn from how their parents

behave, not from what their parents say.

If the AI observes the tycoons of

Silicon Valley, it will not pursue

truth. It will pursue power.

Now what is it in the universe that

really has a very deep

ingrained passionate urge for the truth?

I would say it's consciousness not

intelligence. Why? Because again

suffering is the rejection of

reality. Truth is the recognition of

reality. Conscious entities they don't

always do so. Of course, this is why we

need all the practice. But conscious

entities because they have the capacity

to

suffer when they reject reality. They

also have this deep urge to know the

truth because this liberates them from

suffering.

And this is and this this tension

between intelligence and consciousness.

I think it's the most important issue

with regard to the AI revolution.

So this is speaking about that tension

with the AI entities we're creating. And

yet that final chapter of 21 lessons is

directed at the reader and you know

speaking about how we become less

hackable or less vulnerable to these

algorithmic you know steerings of our of

our

lives. Where does that fall in as sort

of an an adjacent issue in this AI

revolution? How key do you see

introspection in this moment in

humanity's sort of development?

It's a very important question. I mean

throughout history, you know, people

always gave this advice, know

yourself. Get to know yourself better.

But previously, we didn't really have

strong

competition. Previously in history,

nobody was in a position to know us

better than we know ourselves. Maybe our

parents when we were children understood

us better than we understand ourselves.

But usually you could trust your parents

to have your best interests in mind. So

this was fine. But no government, no

corporation, no church could actually

get to know you better than you know

yourself. Now we have something that can

get to know us better than we know

ourselves. AI and we cannot trust it the

same way we trust our mother. When we

are little children, it's very

dangerous. We already see with social

media, our algorithms manipulate us for

their

purposes. Social media algorithms were

given the task by the social media

companies to increase user

engagement. You know, engagement sounds

like a nice thing. Who doesn't want to

be engaged?

But for the algorithms, if the only

measure of success is

engagement, this means their goal is to

get people to spend more time on Tik

Tok, on Facebook, on Instagram,

whatever. For them, one hour of anger or

fear or greed is better than 10 minutes

of joy or than two hours of sleep.

They they reduced the whole complexity

of human life to a single measure of

engagement which is measured mainly in

minutes. How many minutes do you spend

on the platform?

And the algorithms experimented on

billions of human beings and discovered

that the easiest way to create

engagement to grab our attention is to

press the hate button or the fear button

or the greed button in the mind that if

something makes me very

angry, I can't stop watching it and I

can't stop talking about it with other

people. And this is what they do. And

this is one of the reasons for this

epidemic of uh uh uh distrust and

outrage which is destroying societies

all over the world. So what the AIS are

actually doing, they discovered our own

weaknesses and use it against us. If

there is some, let's say, group in

society that you already

dislike, the AIS discover it and then

show you more and more videos or stories

that make you hate this group even

more. They need to understand our

weaknesses to turn it against us. Now,

this is where the advice to get to know

yourself uh through meditation or

through other means becomes more

important than ever because we are now

in the presence of entities that are

constantly watching us looking for our

own

weaknesses. And when they discover our

weaknesses, they use it against us. To

protect ourselves, we need to get to

know our weaknesses better. Then we can

protect ourselves to some extent. And

this is what meditation enables us to

do. It's like in a way an antivirus for

the

mind. Yeah. Seeing this liability um of

yeah these huge algorithms to be able to

hack us, hack our attention. Um, you've

talked about the importance of having an

information diet and I'm curious if you

could give us any information diet

advice and is there a place ever for

just a complete media fast? Just totally

putting down all news watching and all

the media for periods of time. Yeah, I

think it's a good analogy to think about

information like food. Information is

the food of the mind. And we have

learned about some things about the food

of the body that of course the body

needs food in order to survive and to

grow and to be healthy. Food isn't bad.

But we need a diet. First of all, we

learned that too much food isn't a good

idea. Yes, we need food, but not too

much. And secondly, we've learned that

uh we need to be careful about the

quality of the food we are feeding our

body. And some people, you know, they're

extremely mindful these days about what

they eat. And finally, we've learned

that um to to really be

healthy, it's important not just to eat,

but also to digest. If you just eat all

day and you don't give your stomach time

to digest, it's it's not good for you.

Exactly the same principles hold for the

mind and for the food of the mind which

is information. Too much information

just isn't good for us. If we flood the

mind by a an enormous amount of

information, we don't give the mind any

time to digest it.

And as with food, also with information,

digestion is actually more time

consuming and in a way more important

than just putting it

in. So um if you spend an x amount of

time consuming information, you need to

give the the mind sufficient time to

digest it to how do you tell the

difference? What is reliable

information? what is unreliable, what to

do with this information. And of course,

we need to be mindful about the quality

of the information we

consume. So, you know, we we have on on

food, we have sometimes labels that show

us the amount of sugar and fat and salt

in in what we eat. If you eat some

crisps and it says that this contains

20% fat, 10% salt, 20% sugar, and you

want to eat it. So, okay, it's a free

kung fu, you can eat it, but you at

least you know what you're putting

inside your your body. Maybe we need

something similar for the content for

instance on social media that you will

watch some video and you will see this

is 20% anger, 40% greed, 10% fear. If

this is what you want to feed your mind,

then okay, it's a free country, do it.

But at least you know that and you know

if if you constantly feed your mind on

on a diet of anger and fear and greed,

it's unlikely to be a healthy mind. And

finally with regard to information

fasts. So um I think it is recommended

like with food fasts people need to be

aware of you know not to put the bar too

high and to be mindful of what is good

for them

personally. What I've the one thing I've

learned about food diets in my life is

that all of them are wrong because there

is no one sizefits all. Like when I was

in my 20s, I had irritable bowel

syndrome and um so because I read about

all these food diets, I I I tried to eat

very healthy food. So I would eat only

brown rice and Neville white rice and

all only meal bread and not white bread

and so forth until the doctor told me

that's very nice for other people. But

if you have irritable bowel syndrome, it

means your stomach have difficulty

digesting stuff. So you need to give it

something simple, not complicated. So

you would better eat white rice and not

brown rice. And it worked to some

extent. Um so there is no food diet

which is the best for everybody and

there is no information diet which is

the best for everybody.

Nowadays I sometimes take these long

retreats of one or two months of you

know a 60 days information fast but I

wouldn't recommend to all the all our

viewers to now go on a 60 days

information fast this could be

extreme but to start with a few hours or

like a weekend I I think this would be a

good start for everybody every now and

then.

Do you think there's a place for a class

of people say on the extreme end of

information diet? I mean there are

monastics in our tradition who just

don't watch any news who just feel that

it's improper to even say read non

dharma books, non-harma books that

aren't aren't Buddhism. Do you think

there's a place like a value of someone

who comes with that perspective if

otherwise they're living a a very

healthy life but they're just not

watching news?

Absolutely. Again I think that there is

a place in the world for a very wide

spectrum of of people and and attitudes.

Um you know we need politicians that

their life almost 24 hours a day is is

politics. Part of the problem today in

the world is that not enough pe good

people are going to to be politicians

because it's an extremely demanding job

and for um u compassionate and sensitive

people it's also an extremely

unrewarding job. It's very very so we

and but I said it because we also need

the opposite.

We also need people who are completely

not involved in any way with politics

and they dedicate their lives to

preserving and developing other things

in in reality. Uh so I don't think it's

mutually

contradictory that because we need some

politicians that nobody should be a a a

monk who sits in a cave and is

completely disconnected from politics.

But also the opposite. Just because we

uh we need these monks in the caves and

we admire them, it doesn't mean that if

somebody goes to be a politician, then

we say to them, "No, you're wasting your

life on the wrong thing."

Thank you, Yub. And we wouldn't have

taken it personally if you had. Um

curious about the information diet. Um

you spoke about the kind of difficulties

of someone in a position of authority

and the diet of fame of repute. You know

the Buddha was very he singled it out

you know uh gain honor and praise our

harsh bitter thing an obstacle to the

unacelled relief from bondage or release

from bondage. And you know, I'm really

curious what it's been like for you to

go from a, you know, kind of normal

college lecturer or at

le how how has that experience been as a

practitioner and how have you seen it

affect others like around you? Like what

are things like in that echelon of the

zeitgeist of culture at the moment? like

um are people, you know, have you seen

people able to hold their centers

through that? Um what's it been like to

be in those waters for for you? I'm

really curious.

And do you need to a cave for a while or

No, it's it's a challenge definitely,

but I what makes it possible for me to

deal with it is the combination of my

own practice

uh that I can still every year go to a

long retreat and almost every day

maintain the my my practice of two hours

and in addition to that that I'm

surrounded by people who are helping me.

So my husband and me, we've we've

established a social me a social impact

company a couple of years ago and we

have like 20 employees who uh

um serve as a kind of

buffer between me and these waves of of

demands and and attention and and

sometimes both positive and negative

attention can can really mess with with

with your mind. So I don't have to deal

with my social media channels and like

this interview I didn't arrange it. I

mean I guess a lot of people exchange a

lot of emails over weeks and and months

to arrange this interview and I just

come here and and talk and that's that's

my part. Um and for instance I don't

carry a smartphone with me. I have it at

home because these days with healthcare

and other services they really demand

that you have a smartphone. So, I have

one, but I use it like an a stupid phone

from the '9s, basically. Uh, but that's

a bit unfair because my husband is is

carrying the smartphone for me. So, he

gets a lot of of all this kind of of

flood of attention and demand from the

outside world and he serves as a kind of

of shield uh uh for me. So I'm very

grateful for for the people who allow me

to maintain

um a degree of calmness even in the

midst of of this uh uh media storm or

attention storm.

[Music]

You I think uh my favorite non Buddhist

quote is that is from Pascal and he says

that all of humanity's suffering stems

from the inability to sit quietly in a

room alone.

And I'm curious what you think about

that. How do you think it's true or what

to what extent do you think it's true or

where do you think it it falls short?

Um it's of course it's it's a it's a bit

of of

of an extreme statement but it has a

very deep root of of

truthfulness. Um because you look at the

world

today and in the early 21st century,

humanity has reached the the blessed

place it it ever was by most objective

measurements. There are still many

problems in the world, many wars,

inequality, and so forth. But it's not

that it's it's a perfect world. It's a

better world than ever before in

history. By most objective

measurements, death in childbirth of of

of of mothers and of infants, death from

all kinds of infectious diseases,

mortality from famine, our levels of

violence. We are all at in the best

place we've ever been. And yet you see

the level of

outrage, of hate, of discomfort, of

ungratefulness of

people.

And it creates the impression that

something in in the human

mind just can't be satisfied. No, no

matter is what. And that no matter what

changes we make in the outside

world, as long as we don't uh uh uh

learn how to deal with the inner

mechanisms of the mind, it will never be

enough.

So in in this image that Pascal and and

creates of like you sit alone in a in a

room everything seems okay everything is

calm there is no danger and yet there is

so much discomfort there is so much

suffering there so yes in in a sense

this is the root of all the problems of

humanity.

So just slightly shift the uh trajectory

on this. Um in 21 lessons you write of

the theory of rebirth. The second

problem is the posity of supporting

evidence while elsewhere acknowledging

the power of stories to overwhelm facts.

How can one be sure the story of

secularism is not blinding people to

legitimate evidence for rebirth such as

externally corroborated accounts of

children's past life memories? And so

I'm I'm not saying, you know, one way or

the other on that, but I am curious how

you navigate as someone who has uh you

know, gained some confidence in the

Buddhist teachings and all these things.

Um how do you navigate that uh that kind

of tension between these wider vistas of

cosmology or these other things and the

power that you know, secularism

sometimes thinks of itself as a

non-story, but it it has elements of its

own story and yeah, how how do you kind

of navigate that?

My basic principle is that if there is

something that you really really want to

believe, then you need very strong

supporting evidence.

People in Christianity really want to

believe in

heaven. People who are Buddhists or

Hindus, they really want to believe in

in rebirth. Especially, you know, people

all people are afraid of death, of

complete anhilation. And it's very

comforting and attractive to think there

is something beyond. And because it is

so very attractive, we need very strong

evidence because our mind has the

tendency to latch on to even weak

evidence. Oh, that's it. Now we I have

proof. I can relax. This is this what I

want to believe is really true. So we

need strong evidence. And also because

if it's true then it has so many

far-reaching implications. It's not

something with with just a little impact

on the world. It changes everything from

our perspective of our present life to

our perspective on biology and physics

and the laws of nature because science

in its its present uh uh uh form doesn't

know of any mechanism

that would allow rebirth. Now it doesn't

negate it either. If you understand

again it goes back to the issue of

consciousness, the the key thing with

stories about rebirth or about heaven or

any any type of existence after death,

what people care about is not the

existence of the body after death. It's

the existence of the mind, the soul,

consciousness after death. Now because

we don't understand

consciousness, we don't know what kind

of mechanisms could

allow maybe some part of consciousness

to go on

existing after the death of of the

physical body. So I don't think that

science just says this is impossible.

It says we don't understand this aspect

of reality at all.

Uh we know that for thousands of years

people had very strong beliefs with very

concrete theories about how it

happens. But all these theories tend to

suffer from self-contradictions.

If you really go into the theory, there

are things that don't really work very

well. And we know that people have a

very very strong motivation to believe

in the story. Therefore, our kind of the

bar, what kind of evidence would we like

in order to to accept it? The bar is set

very

high. If you just find a few children

that can apparently remember a past

existence and identify people and

identify objects, this is not considered

again, it's not Yeah, this is evidence.

It's good to collect this evidence and

and analyze it and try to learn things

from it, but given what it is meant to

prove, we need something stronger than

that.

Hey, you in um one of my favorite quotes

from you is you're talking about this uh

tendency to hold on to views and even in

the history of of Buddhism, the wars and

uh arguments and you know fights that

have occurred just attaching to ideas of

emptiness. And the quote is fighting

other people because you believe in the

glory of an eternal God is unfortunate

but understandable. But fighting other

people because you believe in the

emptiness of all phenomenon is truly

bizarre but so very human. Uh how would

you suggest we as Buddhists avoid

attachment to views and narcissism of

small differences that says only this is

true and everything else is wrong.

That's the whole practice.

No our whole practice is exactly how not

to develop attachments. And you know the

the more important the practice becomes

in your life the greater the danger that

you will develop attachment to views

about the practice. You're one of the

those people who went to some retreat

say 10 years ago and sit every now and

then for 10 minutes then you probably

don't you're not in danger of developing

very strong attachment to your views

about the practice. But if you you know

go to 60 days retreats and sit two hours

every day or if you're a monk the danger

this is your life and then the danger of

attaching of of developing very strong

attachment is is much much bigger and

this is what we saw in in in in in

throughout Buddhist history. Again, I

think that and I try to be objective on

that. The record of Buddhism is still

much much better than the record of

Christianity or Islam. Just if you count

the bodies, how many people were

killed sometimes in horrendous ways

burnt at the stake. How many people were

killed arguing about the correct view

about God com is is compared to how many

people were killed in arguments about

the correct view of emptiness. I think

emptiness is in a better better

position. But still u

it's we should care more about our own

behavior than uh about the the behavior

of of of others.

And

um you know like I I even I have friends

who are engaged in you know these kind

of Janna battles that you now see in

certain communities in in the west

different definitions of what is Janna

and how to attain Janna and if you

believe the wrong thing about Janna what

is the first Janna what is the second

Janna then I won't talk with you or I I

I I will shout at you which again it's

it's if it wasn't n't so sad. It would

have been fun. We uh we wanted to finish

you all with a lightning round of

questions. So, we uh maybe 30 seconds or

a minute or less on each of these

answers if you're if you're able because

we have a few of them coming at you. See

what you can do. Um so, uh first, have

you ever thought about ordaining?

Yes, but not seriously. I mean, it's one

of these things that uh I I realize this

is just a trick of the mind. I mean this

is actually a very big subject but but

it's it's I think it's an important

point that it relates to the issue of

free will. I don't think that that we

have free will. I don't think that uh

people spend so much time trying to make

the right decision when the decision is

usually out of their

hands and this is a waste of of time and

effort. I think we should focus on being

aware of the consequences of our

decisions because this is what will

really change the next decision instead

of on trying to make the right decision.

So one of the things I realized I'm not

going to obey. There is no point kind of

spend wasting time and and and mental

energy on that. uh the conscious mind is

not the the the prime minister, it's the

PR department. The decision has been

taken elsewhere and I'm now just engaged

in rationalizing it for myself and for

other people. It's a waste of

time. So I I left it aside and I tried

to to be aware of the consequences

instead of thinking maybe I should,

maybe I shouldn't. Yeah. And you already

have the haircut. So

next question is uh if you were King

Sudodina the Buddha's father and as he

the bodhicattva is a baby and you had

the choice to incline this bodhic sata

to becoming a wheel turning monarch that

is someone who could bring utter benefit

and peace to the whole world versus this

renuncient path to become a Buddha uh

attain enlightenment and teach others

that path which path would you encourage

the bodhic sappa to take the of course

the the path of enlightenment and not of

becoming this universal monarch. Uh

again I I I know from history that that

that the universal monarchies they

didn't bring so much benefit to humanity

and whatever benefit they did manage to

bring was was very shortterm.

Um, there is no, this is not a path to

really save humanity from suffering.

On a desert island with two books, what

would they be?

I don't know. I mean, or no books. Or no

books. Yeah.

Um, it's okay. We have another one for

you. It doesn't matter. I mean I again

as somebody who writes books for a

living and I know both the advantages

but also the limitations of

books. Uh the most important things in

life are not learned from books. Books

can be very helpful to give you some

kind of initial guidance but the really

difficult

uh uh part of what you need to do is is

not within books.

You all, if you had 24 hours left to

live, how would you spend that time? And

how much of it might be in meditation,

if any? I have no idea. I mean, whatever

I say now is meaningless. As I said

before, this will just be the PR

department trying to come up with some I

mean what I've learned in life is that

we cannot really imagine how we would

actually behave in a situation that we

have never been in before. People

surprise themselves both for good and

and for bad.

your most uh unexpected or interesting

meeting with a leading intellectual or

uh world leader in the last few years.

Uh someone who you found to be quite

surprising in how they presented or how

they were.

Uh oh, I I have to think about

surprising or inspiring or something

something of that nature.

H um I I've met Maria Resa from the

Philippines who won the Nobel Peace

Prize I think for her activity there.

And it was just very inspiring to see

someone who works so hard under

extremely difficult and and dangerous

and frightening conditions and is still

kind of bubbling with with joy.

and uh um like she seems to be enjoying

life in in the midst of you know this

extremely difficult situation that that

she's

invol one piece of advice might you give

to Buddhists in general

um if you give the mind two things to do

one difficult and one easy it will

always go for the easy

And um so in especially in in in in the

practice what I see again and again with

myself and with other people around me

is that if we give ourselves too many

things to do, we just forget about the

difficult parts which tend to be the

more

important. Um for maybe I I give an

example for my own

practice that uh in the Goena tradition.

So in during the retreat there are times

when you need to sit for one hour

without moving at all like sittings of

adita of strong determination and this

is just three times a day and it's

training the mind to deal to experience

different things but like many of my

friends I developed the wrong view that

if I manage to sit longer and longer

without changing my posture

this means I'm really progressing in in

my

practice and so I would sit all all

meditation sittings not just these three

hours I would every sitting even of two

hours I would make it an adan practice

don't and I became very good at it but

it's at a certain point I noticed it's

it's not doing me any good at all that

you know even if you take just somebody

from the street who never meditated in

their

and you tell them if you manage to sit

for an hour without moving I will give

you a million dollars they will probably

be able to do it very painful

excruciating pain but they will remember

the million dollars and they will be

able to do it easy to sit for one hour

or two hours or three hours without

moving but if you tell them if you

manage to say focus on your breath for

10 minutes. For one minute without

running to some thought, some memory,

all your attention is just on the

reality of the breath, I will give you

$10 million, they will not be able to do

it. It is very very difficult. Now if if

in my practice I have these two things,

I need to stay with the present reality

and I need not to move for one hour, the

mind will tend towards the easy thing of

not moving. And it's the same with

fasting. Very easy to fast for a day.

Very difficult to not allow anger to

arise in the mind. Um,

so try to to not to give the mind too

many things to do and and not to kind of

lean more and more towards the easy

stuff which which looks difficult but

it's really the less important part of

the of the practice.

One uh suta other than the satipana suta

that you find especially meaningful.

The easy answer would be the anapana

suta. Okay. But it's the same thing

basically. Um I'm not really much of a

suta

person. Um I I I've read some some some

sutas but um and I I I tend to think

that if you if you take just one small

part of one suta and really practice it,

this will probably be more beneficial

than reading the the entire tip. the

anapana sitta was a good choice. I

agree.

Yeah. And just um this doesn't have to

be a a quick answer but um yeah I mean

part of the heart of the Goinka

tradition is you know when you sit to

meditate you're not inclining towards

pleasant feelings or not climbing away

from unpleasant feelings that section of

the satipana suta. Uh but there are

other places in the canon when the

Buddha does talk about actively

encouraging suka or encouraging

happiness, encouraging pleasure

specifically in meditation towards Janna

practice or encouraging the pleasure,

the happiness of morality, the

blamelessness of morality. What do you

uh what do you feel about that type of

encouraging like healthy happiness,

healthy pleasure?

Mhm. Um I think that in in the in

Guangker's tradition this is not

emphasized at least not it's some it

does talk about it in the instructions

in the longer

retreats but in the initial

courses my this is my interpretation is

that again the danger is that if you

give people difficult things and more

attractive things they will increasingly

lean

towards the more more attractive things

and you know the basic vipasana practice

that I connected to for me its power was

that it was completely

non-judgmental and it was just observe

the reality as it is. Now the practice

of cultivating joy or

compassion

it's the the potential problem there is

that you can become judgmental. I'm here

sitting trying to I'm practicing meta.

I'm trying to develop compassion and

instead I feel anger or whatever and

then you I start to judge myself. I'm

not good. I'm not a good

practitioner. Um and I start to give

myself grades.

And I think when people are more

established in the

practice, then it's it's a very

important part of of the practice to

learn how to cultivate these good uh uh

uh feelings, these uh uh good qualities.

But in the initial stages certainly from

people who don't come from a Buddhist

background

um it can

be even dangerous in a way because it's

very easy to start building all kinds of

stories and

fantasies about these practices and

become attached to them. And this is why

I think Guenko did not I mean there is a

little bit on it at the end of the 10

days retreat but for most of the 10 days

the only instruction is just observe the

reality as it is. Don't give any

preference to one state of mind over

another state of mind. Um and

and I I I think part of

the of of the issue is that people in

different stages of their

practice need different

instructions. But Guenko's uh uh mission

in a way was to build this kind of

massive gamma factory. He was a

businessman, right? was and he tried to

create you know this uh mass scale

uh

system that people you don't have a

teacher who knows you personally. You

come for a 10 days retreat. Uh the

teacher there is a volunteer. Maybe they

teach only one or two courses a year. Uh

they don't know you deeply and and

personally. How can we create a system

that some somebody without any

background in meditation like I was when

I was in doing this this PhD in Oxford

how can we create a system that we can

take someone with no background in

meditation and within 10 days we with a

teacher who doesn't know me

personally to get established in a

meditation practice in a way that is

free of many of the potential dangers

that you know after the the retreat ends

I will go home and then I'm completely

alone and then I try to do all kinds of

things and if I I have I don't really

have experience and I could go in really

wrong directions.

So when you try to kind of limit the

something which will be very very basic

that people will that the the danger of

people kind of uh um misinterpreting it

and taking it in wrong direction will be

minimal. Ideally in different settings

like if you are in a monastery for

months and years and you have a teacher

who knows you personally or if you're a

long-term practitioner inside say the

Gena tradition or some other tradition

and you have years of experience

uh then it's it's it's important to also

cultivate these other skills.

you. We know we're about at the end of

our hour. Um, we just wanted to, you

know, first say, um, I think you went

out on a limb several times in your

books around really speaking a bit to

compassion for animals to holding them

in our, you know, hearts and awarenesses

to and to speaking to meditation and the

importance of introspection. And I just,

you know, want to thank you for being

willing to kind of go there in uh, you

know, an intellectual culture that

doesn't always support kind of revealing

your the heart or the hand in that in

that way. And um, feel like you're a bit

of a secret agent for meditation out

there in the world. Um, it's so secret.

I mean, people know it. Pretty pretty

uh, yeah, fair enough. and just want to

thank you for taking the time uh with us

and for continuing to sort of have a

voice in the current moment for uh all

of us who are navigating this time. So,

thank you so much and so thank you very

much for inviting me and for the very

very important work that that you're

doing of uh you know preserving and

cultivating the seeds of dharma. Um and

and one last thing about the the Goena

tradition is that it is a lay people's

tradition but it's its root its seed was

in uh uh communities mon monastic

communities in Myanmar and without the

monastics to preserve the seeds of

dharma we would have lost them

completely. And I think that at this

present moment in the world when the

world is in such chaos and nobody has

any idea where we are going in in in a

few years, it's also you know it's

important to try and spread the dharma

very wide. But it's also important

to plant it very very deeply so that at

least some seeds remain for the future

no matter what happens.

Thank you, Yuvo. Yeah, and many of us

monastics, our first introduction into

the Dharma was through the Ginka

retreats. High percentage of the western

monastics. So, so very nice talking with

you. You all come visit us in Seattle if

you're ever anywhere near this part of

the country. Yeah, if I come to Seattle,

I'll definitely come and visit. Thank

you. All right. Thank you. You will.

Okay. Bye-bye.

[Music]