Original subtitles

so welcome thank you it's good to be

here we were talking backstage and uh

John had the idea of just starting with

a short one to two minute meditation and

I thought no no no we don't want to

start with meditation it always messes

everything up uh and I thought actually

maybe we'll try and start with a short

meditation so John would you like to uh

invite us into that I was hoping that uh

we could get you Vault to guide the

[Laughter]

meditation uh because you know

meditation is a way to uh invite

yourself to drop underneath your

thinking and then he even abandoned the

deranged notion that your thinking is

yours so it's merely phenoma that's

arising and passing away in the mind but

we take it very

seriously and it's in it's a

superpower but I would say that human

awareness is another superpower that I

hate to use this word verb but trumps uh

the the superpower of thought and that

is human awareness that gets not enough

uh airtime or understanding in uh our

common lives but I'm guessing that some

of you at least understand what I'm

pointing to so let's just take a moment

or two and actually realize in

Awareness in the body that uh you've

arrived

and so uh with meditative awareness one

thing you'll notice is uh I could have

formally rung some bells and then ring

some bells and say the meditation is

over but from the perspective of uh true

Dharma practice there's no beginning and

there's no end to the meditation

practice it's coextensive with life

itself is in the same way that as long

as you're breathing the breath is

coextensive with life itself and and it

would be very helpful Pro most the time

to actually be embodied in the present

moment because it's the only one we ever

have and yet we're always out there for

looking for something else so wonderful

this entire conversation will be part of

in some sense you might say a meditation

of some subset of Humanity on what the

hell is going on on and what our chances

are because we are so brilliant that

we've managed to create uh these uh kind

of conditions that are actually um uh

putting the analog world that itself is

the result of 13.8 billion years of

evolution of uh since the the reputed

big bang and we're an intimate part of

that and really I would a uh there's a

profound genius that accompanies that an

analog genius that uh I think will be a

resource for us as we move into this

other domain of AI and other kinds of

machine intelligences that uh you've

just so beautifully and eloquently

written about in such remarkable detail

in the book Nexus that's out there and

uh

it's just as with all your books it's a

staggering accomplishment and I I bow to

you for it and really also appreciate

the gift of it because it's it's like an

alarm Bell a wakeup call and that's very

you know consistent with you know the

meditation practices like maybe this is

time for Humanity to wake up but easy to

say but how we actually navigate that

pathway between democracy and

totalitarian ISM and all sorts of other

things and and just endless useless

stupid

Wars uh this is kind of the curriculum

of the moment so I don't think there

could be a more perfect time for your

book to come out and for you to be here

with us so welcome thank you and I think

it's it was it's very good to to start

with

silence um because I think that in many

cases that the truth is kind of protect

or it's beyond our reach because there

is a shield of silence and some people

would say boredom around it like I go

and meet you know these kind of very

powerful people the tycoons the uh

politicians and one problem always is

that they're very busy people so they

don't have time for

silence um like you made this extremely

extremely busy person and he or she has

just you know like 10 minutes half an

hour to talk with you so in in that time

like you feel that if I don't say the

most interesting thing right now the

person will just walk to them why why

would he spend or she spend waste their

time on me if I'm not saying something

extremely

important and what you find out is that

when you constantly try to say only

extremely important thing you never say

anything really important

but you go through life and it's just

always in the

shallows you never have time to go deep

and to go deep um silence and bordom are

are essential if you have a

conversation and you know you try to

talk about something and it turns out

it's not so important and then something

else and you just raise this thought you

are likely to get to someplace really

important but if you are constantly on

the edge I must say like the most you

just talking

slogans and uh so and you don't even

know who's doing the talking because a

lot of it's automatic pilot yeah you

have in your brain this I I stoed from

previous conversations TV appearances I

stoed this kind of a few stories and

lines that I know they are effective

people think this is important and then

I just press the play and it comes out

now with boredom since you brought a

boredom it's like in when we train

people in meditation practice within the

context of mindfulness-based stress

reduction and and

Medicine uh of course boredom comes up

almost immediately and also pain and one

of the things that people learn very

very quickly is

that paradoxically if you turn towards

the boredom and investigate it or put

the welcome ad out for it just

observe uh boredom

actually it's it's very interesting to

observe boredom and and the boredom it's

like touching a soap bubble it

evaporates it goes away because the

interest arises and that turns out that

paradoxically the same thing is true for

pain that when a lot of people fall

through the cracks of the Health Care

system and there is no way to take their

pain away and the opioid epidemic is

like a reflection of that both emotional

and physical pain but when you turn

towards and open to the raw

sensation then we can ask interesting

questions like is your awareness of the

pain in pain or is your awareness of

suffering suffering and people will

almost immediately say no when I I'm in

Awareness there's the sensation but not

the suffering well that's a liberative

or insightful moment in a certain way

and perhaps this has larger implications

for the kinds of you know sort of uh

people that you're talking to who don't

have any time or are instantly bored or

or just speaking automatically because

uh mindfulness is kind of like it's not

anything other than human awareness and

human awareness is not something you

have to get it's something you're

actually born with and the problem is

access access to awareness so uh from

the point of view of AI you know now

human cognition has reached the point

with the technology where it's created

other ways of uh accessing reality in a

certain way and how we're relating to

that

is a huge challenge because of the speed

at which it's unfolding and I think yeah

I think lose it just to jump I think

what you had said you've all about um

almost like where the words are coming

from and there's a power of the words

but there's also a power in where in my

being those words are coming from are

they coming from kind of a place of

presence and ease and of service or they

com in because I want to impress

everybody or I want to show everybody so

the same words might be said but they

might have a different um kind of energy

or intention behind them and that

intention is often felt and I think the

challenge we have today is because the

information's happening so fast even

when somebody hears something quite

profound let's say on social media it's

they're just on to the next the next

thing so fast that that the wisdom and

compassion and teaching sometimes don't

always get downloaded into them and the

algorithm is trying to keep them going

so I wondered if you could say a little

bit about how you see that dance yeah I

think this goes back to what you said

about the difference between analog and

digital or between organic and inorganic

that organic beings like ourselves like

other animals we work by Cycles

um and sometimes we are on and sometimes

we are off and we need time to to rest

and to digest and to sleep and

algorithms are not like that yeah AI

computers are always

onh they don't need these cycles and

they don't need to to sleep and to rest

and as they become more and more

dominant in the world that more and more

of the basic kind of networks and

systems of the world are being being

manned and run by AIS you know if you

think about the AI apocalypse it's not

the Hollywood scenario of this one big

superc computer that tries to take over

the world and Destroy Humans it's more

like millions and billions of AI

bureaucrats that are increasingly making

decisions all around us in social media

in banks in armies in governments and

they are really inherently alien

intelligences I take AI as an acronym

for alien intelligence and not

artificial intelligence alien not in the

sense that coming from outter space but

in the sense that it's really alien it's

very different it's not

organic and uh again one of the key

things that it's it's always on yeah I

think you give the example of you know

in the programming let's say the

algorithm on YouTube you just tell it

enhance reinforce enhance user

engagement and it has its own ways of

doing that there's not a human

necessarily telling it put this ad here

put that ad there is that an example of

the system exactly again I mean it's

still human beings who run the big

social media companies like Twitter or

Facebook or YouTube but the daytoday

management the the decisions about what

to show you what to recommend to you

it's increasingly done by algorithms

yeah and the humans give them this kind

of General goal like increase user

engagement but then the algorithms

experiment and discovered for instance

that if you want to increase user

engagement and engagement sounds

something nice being engaged what's

wrong with being engaged with with with

the world well there is something wrong

could be with being too much engaged

with the world because the algorithms

experimented on us and discovered

something it's not really a big

Discovery because people knew it

thousands of years ago but the

algorithms also discovered it that the

easiest way to get somebody engaged to

grab your attention is to press the hate

button or the fear button or the greed

button in your mind and then you're

engaged so this is why they flood the

social media platforms with more and

more

content that presses these buttons and

people become glued to to the screens

and this is not good for us and the

humans behind it say we're not

responsible for that when in fact they

are responsible for that I mean led to

myamar and also the sort of colossal

catastrophes in Brazil by that you know

just maximize user engagement without

any anybody taking responsibility on The

Human Side for what those Downstream

effects were yeah I mean uh they

constantly try to shift the blame to the

humans now right and they say you know

it's the users it's it's a it's a human

user who created this hate fill video

some conspiracy Theory what do you want

for us do you want us to censor them and

and violate freedom of speech of a human

being and the answer is no we don't want

you to censor human beings we just want

you to take responsibility for what your

algorithms are doing if a human being

decided to put on on on on Facebook some

or YouTube some hatefield conspiracy

theory that's their responsibility and I

agree that you should be very careful

before you censor a human being but

that's not the problem the problem is

that then your algorithm decided to

deliberately show and recommend this

specific there are so many videos on

YouTube why did your algorithm choose to

show

this video and not some video on on some

boring ceremon on compassion instead of

a hatefield conspiracy

theory because this is more engaging

okay I understand the business model but

then you can't blame the users for the

decisions and action of your algorithms

this is this is the the the heart of the

issue and again when it comes to

engagement this is something I learned

in in like my my first meditation course

24 years ago about engagement it's very

easy to engage the mind with certain

types of content you know you they give

gave me this instruction okay just sit

there with your eyes closed and focus

all your attention on the breath coming

in and out of of your nostrils don't try

to control the breath don't do anything

just feel is the breath coming in into

the breath going out now this was not

particularly

engaging like as far as user engagement

goes very very low marks and then the

algorithms in the mind they immediately

found these videos from my past which

are far more engaging and stuff is

showing me all these angry videos and

all these ful videos which are very

engaging and like I I lost complete uh

touch with the reality of the present

moment I mean the whole point of the

exercise it's very easy to engage the

mind it's very very difficult to engage

the mind with

reality and and that's the big the the

the the crucial difference if they told

the algorithms don't maximize user

engagement maximize user engagement with

reality let let let let me see that

happens on YouTube I think there's two

parts to this there's two parts right if

I jump in one part would be how do we

Engage The Mind with reality and then

the second part is how do we Shine the

Light Of Consciousness back on that user

right because if I let's say I spend my

day just focused on reading facts and

reading truth it doesn't necessarily

relieve suffering right I think the

Buddhists that I hear to teach one thing

and one thing only to relieve suffering

and so I do think that there's the truth

element of of knowing what's true true

but then there's also this inner journey

of what Consciousness is I was wonder if

you could speak a little bit to that or

do you feel like I'm I'm off on the

wrong track with that no I mean

especially in the age of AI the question

of Consciousness becomes more important

than ever because you have all this big

question of whether AIS will become

conscious and what will happen then and

it's I think it's it's still the biggest

riddle in in science also uh uh what is

consciousness and where does it come

from

and can humans be conscious more

conscious can humans be more conscious

our an to what extent are animals

conscious to what extent computers uh uh

can be conscious and uh there are so

many definitions of of what is

consciousness and um the definition that

I found most

helpful is that Consciousness is the

capacity to

suffer which immediately means that it

has also an an ethical value

that you know to to to to destroy a

chair to burn a chair is not an ethical

issue because the chair can't

suffer but uh uh when you harm an animal

a sentient being this is an ethical

issue because it can suffer and there

are so so many political discussions

which revolve around that for instance

the whole discussion of abortion to it's

not the only issue but the very Central

issue are are fetuses conscious can they

suffer or or not are they ethical

subjects in their own right or not the

same with animal

rights uh can cows suffer can chicken

suffer can fish suffer and so forth so

once an entity has the capacity to

suffer it enters the ethical realm it

becomes an ethical

subject and um the the

really fascinating thing about it is but

when you think what actually suffering

is and again one way to understand

suffering is that suffering is the

rejection of

reality that uh you feel pain and the

pain is not the suffering the pain is

just a sensation it's made up of all

these tiny waves of heat and tension and

pressure and so forth and the suffering

comes when the Mind feels this sensation

and says I want it not to be there is

something in reality something that

exists right right now and the mind says

I want it not to be I want it out of

existence and you know it goes all the

way from Pain to enti Wars I look at

what is happening in my homeland right

now uh with the war in Gaza with the

conflict between Israelis and and

Palestinians and it's basically an in in

millions of people saying we want these

other people not to be there is

something in

reality and the the Mind reacts even

though it's here I want it not to be and

the Deep question is what kind of thing

is it in in the universe that can reject

reality that it's here and the mind says

yes but I want it not to be here and

again this goes to the heart of the

question about I and computers and um

because they are so you know

mathematical entities everything based

on calculations and so forth is there a

mathematical calculation that results in

reject a rejection of

reality like you think about thermostats

that measure the temperature in the room

which are taken as a very kind of simple

machine because you can you can tell a

thermostat if the room goes under say a

goes up over 30° C turn on the air

condition so the temperature goes down

to

25 so the thermostat is interacting with

the world it takes actions in the world

but as far as we know it's not conscious

and it's not suffering when the

temperature goes over 30° the thermostat

doesn't feel this shouldn't be

right it has a program okay it's now

over 30° I have this program that said

switch on the air condition it does so

but it doesn't reject reality which is

why it's not a crime to take a

thermostat and throw it in a boiling

water because there is no rejection

there and this goes all the way to the

algorithms that manage social media and

the next generation of AI and the

question is can AI reject reality in the

way that that we do and in this sense

suffer

not yet but jump and also potentially

cause enormous amounts of suffering as

well causing absolutely that's we know

already know they can cause an enormous

amount of suffering and we we've seen it

like on on very like the the the AIS

that have been running of social media

platforms for the last 10 years or so

they are very very primitive AIS and yet

they had such a huge impact on the world

for the better as well for the worse I

mean I don't want to to to just focus on

on the bad side now also enormously

positive things that social media is is

has done for Humanity if you look at

teenage mental health in the US and you

look at the statistics of the last five

years user time on Instagram in

particular and Tik Tok and and their

quality of their mental health I think

it's very hard to say it's had

a it's epidemic that the Surgeon General

has is intervened it's had a create some

kind of uh we can't say for sure but the

data suggests that the more time and

their La their sense of self and here's

how I see it just to throw it in I see

it as like particularly teenagers and

particularly teenage girls they're

looking for a sense of belonging and

connection and if you go into a forest

and you see all these trees you

experience the trees you experience the

forest you're like oh I'm connected to

these forests right if all of a sudden I

went into that forest and every tree had

a number on it this is a 10 this is a

two this is a three my experience of

that Forest would be very different

right because everything now is in this

world of comparison so young people go

on these platforms and all of a sudden

they're they're numbered they're rated

and everything they see is rated and of

course they're feeling separation

they're feeling disconnected from their

spiritual self because all of a sudden

they have a number and a connection and

they're above or below their friend got

this number of likes they got this

number of likes and I think what they're

longing for is the sense of being in a

forest and being connected and and what

what often they experience is a sense of

separation of being other of being

higher lower and so you know my hope

would be to create a new social media

company that maybe reinforce the

goodness in young people but I think

there's that desire to feel a sense of

belonging and I don't know if the rating

system that is

created it apparent it to me it doesn't

necessarily help create that sense of

separation and you know just to bring it

back to the meditation practice um

people can learn how to belong without

any devices uh in the analog world you

learn how to be okay uh and then you see

that your mind is producing all sorts of

things that say you're not okay you're

not pretty enough you're not this enough

which is what is being exploited by all

the algorithms where you can actually

change the way you look on certain kind

of uh you know programs and so forth and

and it's

saying how about we not give up our

analog Beauty just yet and be conscious

of how much we are in fact surrendering

it when we interface with any of that

technology

and create new new kind of educational

Pathways to self

recognition and uh and and uh learning

how to live an embodied analog life and

not be a slave to never mind AIS I mean

just the phone itself even if it's not

driven by AI you walk down the street in

New York City and I did this this

morning I worked for like 15 blocks and

virtually everybody is looking like this

now uh uh 40 years ago if people were

walking down the street looking like

this Patty wagons would have driven up

and taking them to the local hospital uh

because this is

patently insane back in the day but now

it's become the default mode that

everybody is on their phone and there's

a sense of profound connectedness it's

very beautiful in a certain way but

there's a toxic element to it when you

are in some sense lose touch with your

own analog uh

integrity and

also uh the

trustworthiness of your in multiple

intelligences of which thinking and

emoting are merely two of a big much

bigger range so part of I think the

challenge going forward and I'd like to

ask how you see it is is how to educate

ourselves and future generations to not

be so quick to give up who they are uh

even though you know ultimately we may

not know who we are but the not knowing

is an incredibly precious dimensionality

of humanity that's creative loving

mysterious and also in a very profound

way ethical when it's taught as you know

the meditation practices are taught

within a context of ethics of non fing

of not taking intoxicants of you know

very purposefully not stealing and

taking what's not yours so the the

question is the word Dharma which is

this kind of overall framework for the

Buddhist Meditation practices it

actually means lawfulness and lawfulness

has something to do with governance and

how we govern ourselves so as we move

into this insane future from this insane

present are there ways that we can

actually learn how to govern ourselves

in our analog lives and interface with

the digital in the AI in ways that uh

really uh optimize well-being and

minimize all of those different kinds of

har I think that it reminds me I once

met one of the people of the engineers

who came up with the like

button Justin Justin probably right yeah

we can we can name him a little he

[Laughter]

do to some extent regrets this this B

invention as the amazing thing about the

like button of of Facebook such a huge

invention in the world they basically

rediscovered the beginning of conscious

life because um you know in in sentient

beings at least ones who are not

enlightened well not Buddhas so you have

awareness but then you have action you

have judgment you're aware of something

and you says I like it I don't like it I

like it I don't like it and this is

basically what they discovered in a

digital

form that this urge like I'm aware of

something online and I need I like it I

don't like it why I

mean I mean we've been struggling

basically for billions of years to deal

with this organic bug in our in our mind

this constant I like it I don't like it

and then they start this new inorganic

digital evolutionary process and the

first basically the first thing they do

they repeat the mistake of let's build

into the foundations of the digital

system this I like it I don't like it

function yeah and you know if he hadn't

done it somebody else would I of course

I don't no it's it's like inevitable

that you know um we're constantly kind

of judging ourselves in terms of like

how good my experience is yeah and

that's true in the meditative domain too

is like uh you know how enlightened are

you uh you know secet the meditators can

get very competitive well exactly I mean

exactly I mean they're not nobody's

immune to this kind of thing but but the

challenge is now like uh how do you

either disconnect the like button so to

speak in own mind this is meditation

meditation is disconnecting the because

because it has to do with you know sort

of like uh dopamine I mean it's like

just a a complete dopamine fix you know

that it feels good and then you count

how many people like you uh you know

never mind liking what what you like how

many people like what I posted and then

you're you're dead well this is what you

you've met very famous people as I have

powerful people and uh one of the things

you notice is how insecure people offer

often are in terms of whatever level of

financial or whatever status often

there's a sense of insecurity because

that might either be lost or I don't

really know who I am and as I look at

this world I'm wondering how we support

particularly our younger generation in

knowing who they are so that these

gadgets are the things they're they're

like toys they're not like their self

and I think the one of's biggest

challenges all of a sudden is that I

think that's me right like that profile

that posts me versus like I know who I

am and that's just a tool that I'm using

or not using does that make sense and so

is there a way that we can cultivate and

maybe it's through meditation practice

um but is there a way that we can

cultivate in ourselves and a young

people a sense of knowing who we are

independent of whatever the external

World tells us this is being aware of

reality without being too quick to judge

it to like it or to dislike it to want

it to disappear or to want it to to to

to increase and this image of the people

going with with with the smartphone with

the screen you know this is basically

going back to the Greek myth of narus

which I set on on this is narus and you

have images even from ancient Greece dep

piic nisses like that and like we have

the the whole world going into that that

mode yeah um

and to to be you know and and the impact

on on on on Mental Health like one very

important or very interesting uh

research i' I've I've seen recently is

comparing the mental health of different

professions and the profession that came

at the very bottom the very very bottom

of mental health was

politicians shocking which is a terrible

thing yeah because we need these people

to have good mental health it's a very

important profession yeah and we are

making it almost impossible for healthy

sane people who want wellbe in life uh

uh to be in that profession and there

are many reasons for that but one reason

is again that you need to be constantly

on yeah there is never a single moment

that you can be off yeah that because

the new cycle is always on there is

always something that that that is

happening and again it goes back to the

no moment of silence because everything

is so

important there was just now this story

in in in the UK about whether the Prime

Minister should go on his the summer

vacation with his family or

not and obviously he should you know but

he's so important and there are so many

important things happening in the world

so some people say no he should be on

all the time which is humanly impossible

yeah um and it it happens of course not

just to politicians but but to everybody

you know if you think about the

teenagers in school so previously status

competition was something that happened

only sometimes of the day like you go to

school you go to the schoolyard there is

stus competition then you go home you

shut the door and that's it you have

some time off from status competition

now status competition is always on at

any moment something can happen I can

say something somebody can say something

which has an impact on my status

talking about online yeah yeah and um

similarly it's like life becomes this

very long NeverEnding job

interview that anything you do at any

moment has an impact on your chances of

getting a job 5 10 20 years to the

Future like you did something stupid but

legal in some college party when you're

18 20 years down the line when you want

to be a judge or you you are a

politician or you're a journalist this

comes out the algorithms find it yeah I

mean there is there is no longer any

kind of private moment and part of of of

what we know also for meditation is that

the mind is full of garbage and junk and

and stupidity and we need space for that

yeah is that why you meditate two hours

a day yeah I mean there's so much

garbage inside and you know when you go

and you speak on a stage in front of

people you have a big

responsibility you have to be very

careful about what you say because your

words are like seeds that go into the

minds of lots of people and if you say

something hateful then you encourage

hate in the minds of many other people

and especially politicians like you say

something on television millions of

people hear it it goes in their mind

you're like spreading hate in the world

let me just stop you you're doing the

exact opposite right now in this moment

we all are taking responsibility for the

exact opposite of that and it's not just

the people in this room but they're also

this live stream and it's like nothing

ever like disappears anymore migrates to

you so we have to be extremely careful

but but it's also a what my point is

that it's also a certain kind of a a

transmission or a reminder or a

recognition to whoever is watching

listening that you're more than you

think you are you're greater than your

thoughts and you're greater than uh the

kind of seductions that we're all so uh

easily susceptible to that if you shut

off your phone or shut off your devices

or or didn't interface with chat gbt

that it's not like you're less than you

are completely whole as you are and when

you start to integrate that using you

know yoga meditation Sports any kind of

um engaged body grounded process that

reminds you of your analog mysterious

wholeness then could that not be a kind

of antidote in the domain of mental

health and medicine for the kinds of um

uh interfaces that we inevitably have to

have with the digital world and with and

with AI I think that you know and in the

Surgeon General is promoting that you

know just in terms of the loneliness

epidemic that everybody's connected and

everybody's lonelier than can be and

have very low

self-esteem uh and these meditative

practices you know if I scan the Horizon

of like global history not being a

historian but I I don't see

much except for the Dharma in its most

universal dimensionality but that comes

mostly and was most articulated in the

Buddhist tradition is that possibly a

kind of uh resource that we could tap uh

for our analog being go going forward

that might actually find some kind of

dynamic equilibrium with what we are

facing with this What's called the

coming waves of you know AI on top of AI

on top of AI uh in the next 20 30 years

or something like that and and because

you uh dedicated your first book sapiens

I we were talking about this backstage

but I I read it on a train in China on

my phone when it came out you were one

of those people looking at your phone I

was looking never read a book on my

phone before or after but sapiens really

captured me and there I had it uh and it

was it's dedicated to SN goena and I

happen to know who SN goena was he's a

great lay meditation teacher from myamar

but who lived in India and who played a

huge role in uh Buddhist Meditation

Coming to America because many of the

Buddhist Meditation teachers now in the

vasana tradition here actually sat long

Retreats and I have a friend from the

Harvard Medical School who came back

1973 and told me about this two we

Retreat that he sat with goenka and it

transformed his life and him just

telling me that transformed my life in a

certain way you mean that's possible you

could sit for 2 weeks and watch your own

mind and this was before there were

phones or any kind of digital

distraction and and so my my question is

and I don't want to be romantic about it

or like this is the going of thing

that's going to save Humanity or

anything like that but I think we're

sitting on top of as I was suggesting

before a superpower in human awareness

and especially when it is embodied and

nonu in the sense of I'm I'm not uh

striving for some ideal that I fabricate

in my own mind of Enlightenment or

wakefulness or anything like that but

I'm you know what I'm looking for is

already here I I am already it in some

sense uh is that not uh one of the few

ways that Humanity might actually thread

this needle for the next 20 or 30 years

the improbability that mindfulness would

spread in the world I mean it's like

millions and millions of people are now

practicing in a very serious way how

many of you if I you don't mind my

asking how many of you have a fairly

regular let's say

meditation look we'll aare Jud if we did

that 40 years ago the answer would be

zero and nobody' be sitting here anyway

um so so something is happening and the

question is can that also be Amplified

not necessarily digitally although we're

happy to do it you know online as well

but so that uh the wisdom that's

intrinsic to humanity that's not

Buddhist that's not Christian that's not

you know Islamic that's the human has a

chance to actually um um be the equal of

the cleverness of the people who are

actually creating the algorithms that

are actually now creating

themselves Ren that's in some sense my

and could that lead in some sense

because AI is not all potentially bad

could that lead to a certain kind of

Renaissance that would actually put the

you know the Renaissance of this 16th

and 17th century in into the shade in a

certain way in the Arts in music in

theater in everything else and the

people and it's happening we're here in

New York City I mean that is happening

is there a way to understand it in a

more Global Perspective that actually

would inspire people to realize their

own Beauty and their own full

dimensionality of

intelligence I think that like AI our

minds are also nowhere near their full

potential there is still so much to

explore and develop there and if

Humanity indeed if for every dollar and

minute that we spend on developing AI we

also spend another dollar and minute on

developing our own minds will be

okay but it's a big question mark whe

whether we do it because it's much more

it's much harder and one of the things

again that I learned from from

meditation is that if you give the Mind

two things to do one easy one difficult

it always goes for the easy one so um

you know you see it in in the

development of of spiritual

Traditions that like uh if it includes

an element of let's say uh a

bily UT how do you say in English

uh like you you fast like you fasting

and another element of uh developing

this ability to focus on the present

moment people will shift to fasting

because it's easier they think that

torturing the body with fasting and all

these kind of things is very difficult

it's actually very

easy if I tell you or I tell anybody if

you manage uh uh not to eat for 24 hours

I'll give you a million dollars anybody

can do

it and even if it's a bit difficult yeah

I'm a bit hungry they can do it if I

tell you okay now more difficult you

have to sit in a Lotus position for one

hour without moving so much of pain I

give you a million dollars people will

do it it will be very difficult it will

be hard they'll Force themselves they do

it if I now tell okay you now have to

focus for one minute only on your breath

with without wandering to any thought to

any memory without any judgment I give

you a million dollar most people unable

to do it because this is this is the

really really difficult stuff that we

can't just give ourselves the command we

have command of our mouth we can force

ourselves not to eat we have command of

our legs we can force ourselves not to

move our legs we have no such command of

our mind and uh this is the difficult

stuff and what you see throughout human

history in every religious and spiritual

tradition that you have this menu of the

difficult stuff and the easy stuff and

people gravitate towards the easy

thinking it is the difficult like they

would wage entire Wars and Crusades and

inquisitions thinking oh this is the

hard stuff and no it's it's the easy

stuff and the same thing happened with

the development of of of Technology

again a dollar for developing our minds

or for developing AI it's much easier to

to code AI than to change our own minds

so we gravitate towards the easy stuff

is there a way we can start a

Renaissance for the hard stuff this is

hard and this is why I'm again I don't

have this optimistic Vision that the

whole world will start meditating no I

don't think it's going to happen even if

it happens it's very likely it will

gravitate towards dangerous areas

because we have from history a lot of

examples of civilizations with uh

spiritual Traditions that went in very

harmful and dangerous directions so the

there is no because of these tendencies

that there is never uh uh this kind of

guarantee we can try and

incorporate not the kind of you know

specific if you force people to all

meditate one hour a day it will be

terrible but to to kind of incorporate

some of the basic principles into for

instance the technology so a meditative

principle incorporated into modern

technology is give people time off for

silence and for non-judgmental moments I

think that like a basic human rights now

should be the right to

stupidity like I mentioned earlier that

my mind I wouldn't call that stupidity I

call it's a right to I mean my mind is

full of stupid thoughts that I'm keeping

to myself as much as I can and not

sharing with you but it's hard it's hard

not to share with you you want to try

one I know I'm serious it's it's really

stupid thoughts and then I this like I'm

I'm it's it's hard it's all the event is

over you're talking about cat videos and

things like that worst

things and then it's over and uh I'm

going with my husband and and who is

also my manager and the producer of of

this whole thing and we go uh to the

taxi to go back to our hotel and then I

can

relax and then I can let the stupid

things out and hopefully the driver or

somebody there is not recording me on

the smartphone and then posting it and

if we talked earlier about why

politicians have such poor mental health

level it's because they don't have time

to be stupid so they do it on so they do

it in

public so let me let me give you

means

because because basically they confuse

politics with therapy you now have this

kind of of of you know this model of the

authentic politician right you have you

have the the bad politician who have

these uh uh uh media advisers who tell

them what to say and what not to say and

they are not authentic and we don't like

them and then you have the authentic

politician who says the first thing that

comes in the mind immigrants eating

for

one I like to share with the American

public and this is bad we need to

reverse it actually politicians should

not be authentic they should be

responsible keep your your your your dog

eating thoughts to your therapy

session yeah but let me can I can I sort

of flip that a little bit because I I

feel like um it's very easy to get

caught in uh judging your thoughts and

uh actually um projecting onto them how

stupid they are

um as I understand the invitation of the

meditation practice it's it's it's is

not to judge the thoughts at all but to

just or or build stories around the

stories and thoughts but to Simply let

them come and go and then you're already

free from them they're like clouds

moving in I absolutely agree I mean I

think of meditation as this space when

you can just let the thought be without

judging but then uh why can't that be

carried into all aspects of life like

when you see your husband or when you

see uh a child or when you see your boss

or when you see a politician uh that you

are aware of all of the different

emotional and cognitive elements of this

but your awareness is not being captured

by them in a certain way so that you

maintain a certain kind of

with my husband I have this so I can say

whatever I want and I want I I know that

most of the time it won't be judged

right and then it can just be there but

again when I have a public appearance

then you know this is not the place to

to now kind of let everything out

because it has consequences in the world

this is why we have meditation centers

and we don't teach meditation usually in

the middle of a noisy Street in New York

now ideally like the the ultimate ideal

is to meditate in in the New York busy

street you got to go away to learn how

to do it but the process of getting

there it passes through these ashrams in

India until you get to the real

Meditation Center on the street in New

York except that may not actually be

true it may be a big idealization that

uh you know people who often claim to uh

have some kind of profound Insight the

problem isn't the profound Insight it's

the somebody who's claiming to have it

uh and that is a very big potential

problem so what I I'm hoping we're

pointing to or talking uh uh about the

potential of is recognizing in our very

selves uh without privileging ourselves

in any way that that the insane beauty

of having a a life or being embodied for

a period of time between birth and death

and in to a first approximation an

infinite number of moments between those

two end points that we could actually

inhabit in ways that maximize ethical

behavior and recognition of beauty and

non-harming and minimizing the impulse

to hurt to run to fear and that in the

recognition is the freedom it's not like

you have to eradicate it and and then

the question

is in some sense are those algorithms

that are running inside of us too or can

we shift the Al I don't know what to

call them but whatever is driving human

emotion and human thought and so forth

which is like uh a lot based on

experience and how woman was parented

and culture and everything else is there

a way to actually transform the culture

so we've transformed the culture that

everybody's walking down in the street

like this but is there a way to actually

transform the culture so that people

have it in their back pocket or their

purse or something and they're walking

down the street and they're actually

making eye contact they're looking at

each other without predation without I

need something from the but more like a

hey the Delight of that I've experienced

that in certain places in different

cultures where people just kind of open

but I think it's disappearing very very

rapid I had a friend who it was mahasi

is a different lineage within the ubin

school and uh he had a a short audience

with him many many years ago and he said

so what's the essence of the practice

yes yesi H side uh supposedly this is a

story of this person uh said know your

mind and he came said why why know your

mind he said for the benefit of all

sensient beings know your mind and I've

always loved that answer because it

talks about a personal responsibility

but it also talks about what you said

which is the impact of not knowing our

minds and I think if there's any kind of

Renaissance potentially that we can

support it would be this Renaissance of

knowing your mind mind so you can

understand I like to use the word heart

but people could use different words

compassion it's very hard to have

compassion when you don't know your mind

it's very hard to have love when you

don't know your mind and so the

Renaissance if there is one to emerge I

think would be something in which people

were encouraged to really know their

mind not from a judgmental place but

actually know their mind in a way that

uh allowed more love and compassion to

come true true love and compassion and

um to me there the AI is going to happen

regardless of of my views on it and I

can't really help too much I can do a

few things but is there ways that we can

support this other movement in society

and possibly writing books is very very

helpful but uh I think part of the

critiques people have sometimes of maybe

you you've all all of us here is like

well tell us what we need to do like

what is the path okay you're in charge

you know what is the path and I'm

wondering if if you all have kind of

some thoughts about okay if if the path

forward knowing AI is going to do what

AI did is how do we how do we begin to

identify or support a vision that we

feel like is um embodied the best of

humanity um I don't think there is like

a one size fits all answer so it's every

individual needs to

identify what going back to this uh uh

big idea that we need to get to know our

own mind for the benefit of all sentient

being but how do you get to know your

own mind so for me I I practice Vasan

meditation but I know from my practice

and from interacting with other

practitioners that maybe it's not the

ideal way for all people I've seen many

when I just began practicing I became

like this missionary Everybody Must Go

and after some years of just you know

from empirical observation it doesn't

work it just doesn't work nothing works

so okay find out what works for you and

then whatever it is it can be a

different radition of meditation it can

be therapy it can be out it can be sport

it can be going to the woods for for a

people whatever works for you and then

invest in it and as much as you invest

in it this is you get there are no

shortcuts invest you said invest in it

when you said that I heard you say

investigate it which would also work

that also worked yeah obviously if there

is a practice which is so important to

you it's also important to investigate

it but uh you know as much as you would

give it this is much you you'll get from

it and it is in many ways the most

important thing you can give yourself

yeah and you've said that in in your

books in at the last chapter of uh 21

lessons for the 21st century you spoke

about your own meditation practice I was

very touched by that and and uh and the

amount of time that you actually devote

to it is like you know if if I

understood it correctly is like you're

meditating several hours every day two

hours a day two hours a day most people

don't do that uh even meditators don't

necessarily meditate two hours a day

unless they're on a treat so um this is

really I think

um exemplary in a certain way that you

know your own mind enough to uh write

these incredible books that uh really I

think clarify for a lot of us what is

going on and the history of it and the

the sort of detail in in such a way that

uh it really affords us an education in

possibilities because of understanding

danger in the past but for me it's

almost a survival question because I I I

don't think I would be able to function

if you weren't without it certainly

would not be able to write these books

so I wouldn't have the problem in the

first place uh uh without the clarity of

mind that the meditation provides but

then to deal with the consequences like

to be in these public events so again

it's really what really creates it's a

lot of stress well sorry to put you on

the side

no you are you are a sweetheart really

happy to have you here is not your

natural your natural intention would be

let's go in in front of an audience

I like you know people who like my

family and my friends that know me from

from days before I I could like when I

had to kind of pick up the phone and

talk with somebody like in the I don't

know in the municipality the water

department like there is a the water is

some problem so I would sit in front of

the telephone for like minutes just

Gathering the courage to speak with a

strange person like on the other side of

the phone well I I want to just say that

in this envir environment and I don't

know any of these people necessarily I

can hardly see them I know some of them

but the the point is wouldn't you say

that uh you are at home you are welcome

here I mean I feel like you know uh

wouldn't you agree that you know that

like there's no there's no no need to uh

be uncomfortable in the ways that you're

describing you can be as much as you

want but there's no the need is from

from inside I mean itively there is

never any need but so that comes yeah

the problem go ahead the problem I mean

is always the the ego this the like

button like would they like me or not

that's can we can we all agree though we

really no no

no can we drill down on when when they

clap and I have this present sensation

this means that next time when they

don't clap and when they're all these

kind of

all these hateful things on social media

you're a heavy duty case I'm the same

I'm the same okay can I can I point

something out okay in terms of the like

button and so forth the Buddha is famous

for having said at one point in the

Bahia Sut it's called Uh that all of his

teachings could be encapsulated in one

sentence and I like to say on the off

chance that he wasn't kidding around

maybe we should you know memorize that

sentence and the sentence is appropo of

what you just said about I uh nothing is

to be clung to as I me and mine and the

operative verb of course is to cling you

know to self-identify to attach in that

way and the awareness the the antidote

to that in the sort of you know the four

noble truths the antidote to that is uh

is uh non- clinging is is recognition

and it the recognition actually

liberates that that sort of uh

thought-based

mistaken real identification so to speak

so the identification now your first

book is called sapiens correct me if I'm

wrong about this but from my biology I

sort of remember that the the the the

species and the genus are both sapiens

so that we're Homo sapiens sapiens is

that fair I mean there is I like to play

with it so at least not entirely wrong

so if we're and the word Sapar from the

Latin means to taste or to know and to

know in a direct experiencing way so if

you want to know what a banana is and

you've never eaten a banana you don't go

to the Encyclopedia of bananas you take

a bite okay and so we're the species

that knows and knows that we know not in

the sense of cognition and metacognition

but that kind of awareness and meta

awareness and now theur neuroscientists

are actually moving from cognition and

metacognition to understanding that much

bigger than that and awareness as you

were saying big mystery to

neuroscientists like how you generate

awareness out of three pounds of you

know trillions of neurons in the head uh

trillions of synaptic connections

billions of neurons in the head no one

has the slightest idea how so if you're

worried that you're not a genius uh it's

it's just a waste of time because it's

patently obvious that every single one

of us is a a a miracle we have the most

complex arrangement of matter in the

known by us

universe and and we get

depressed you know or we doubt ourselves

and so forth so the question is can we

develop a kind of education so to speak

that might remind us of the species name

that we were given by you know L I guess

or by by ourselves and then possibly

live our way into it because if you scan

the Horizon that's what I was

challenging you about or saying there

aren't that many things that I feel like

are available to us that would go the

distance to a potential Liberation that

would be uh for the planet itself you

know like ti nan wrote this book called

Zen In The Art of saving the planet I

mean aside from AI we've got other

planetary challenges right big ones like

global warming and there again we've

fallen into camps of liking disliking

othering and you know with nuclear

weapons

and is there a possibility from your

historical

perspective that we could wake

up actually as a species to the name we

so you know sort of gave ourselves and

live our way into it before it's too

late

yeah that's the big question um why I

asked you

yeah I I'm not sure what the answer is

um and on the individual level there are

answers but the the

collective is is a very different thing

than the individual yeah yeah there are

processes that happen when billions of

people interact which are really

inherently different from the life of an

individual or of of a few people and

part of the issue and and it goes back

to the to the issue of of

stories is that um large numbers of

people are always held together by

stories and part of what meditation does

meditation is kind of anti story like

you're sitting in the present moment

trying just to observe what is happening

with without a story don't build the

story around it and the mind is a story

Factory you sit for a few moments

managing just to observe reality and

immediately the mind starts either

bringing up some old story some memory

or start oh this is a wonderful

meditation now and I'm progressing and

as soon I'll and a story

emerges and the on the individual level

we have practice like in the Dharma of

how not to constantly create stories but

when you think about entire countries

and and Humanity at large I mean the

story is the glue that holds everything

together and the only thing that can

replace one story is another story there

is no way that we can have kind of a a

global syst how about the story of

planet Earth for instance the story of I

mean the word China as I understand it

means the center Chinese civilization

very very old they've been around a very

very long time they have a Dharma

history from the tang and Sun dynasties

that second to no Expressions on on the

face of the earth I mean they just

phenomenally beautifully articulated

artistic and in every other way and true

ndu teaching uh what if the Chinese

actually woke up to that on a sort of

bigger level uh that would be

interesting I think he's saying that the

from the individual level we have some

agency but from the collective

level actually going to a larger

Collective level if we're so

interconnected now why can't we

influence each other in just this kind

of a way uh the stakes are very high

even let's say never mind AI global

warming I mean we need to kind of wake

up to the fact that if we give the

planet more of a fever uh the

consequences are going to be really

horrible what if we're not telling

ourselves a big enough story and that

story would include the story of no

story as well so that it would be really

non duel but it would be uh an

engagement of all of us in a certain

kind of collective belonging and meaning

where we saw each other's Humanity ra

instantly or more right away rather than

you're a threat to me and if I don't get

you you're going to get me I think part

of the of the solution could be going

down from the level of the mind to the

level of the body which is also again

the the at least my basic experience was

is going to my first meditation course I

was doing my PhD in Oxford at the time

living in my mind and he was this person

Asen goenka telling me stop living in

your mind go down to the level of the

body start with the breath right and um

there is a lesson there I think globally

because what separates humans is the

stories in their minds whereas on the on

the bodily level we are remarkably the

same yeah and uh you know there is a a a

um I often like to quote sting on that

the singer in in his song Russian which

is becoming more and more relevant with

each passing day that uh we share the

same biology regardless of ideology yeah

the ideologies the stories that the mind

creates this is what set us apart when

we go down to the level of the body the

biological level uh we realize how much

connection we have not just with the

other humans on the planet plan but with

the entire eological system exactly I'm

going to see we go I'm sorry or just if

somebody has a question we may not we

just get to like one or two but there's

a there's a microphone here um and again

there is this again story in the

Buddhist tradition about this uh uh

meditator who came to to Buddha for

instruction and he was a very very

accomplished meditator in the higher

janas MH and these higher janas are this

extreme deep meditative state

concentrative state very very

concentrated where the mind really loses

all connection the the four highest

genas with the body and start expanding

and expanding and expanding the mind to

infinity and like a cosmic mindfulness

and and Cosmic mind and and the Buddha

tells him go go down back to the level

you've lost touch you have lost touch

right and in a way this development of

AI yeah also is it harps on on on the

same fear that we are creating a a

universe of intelligence in a

way uh which loses touch with the um

with the biological and even with the

physical uh uh level and this this is

again one of the biggest fears yeah is

that this is what AI will be this kind

of of it will expand it starts for

planet Earth you know humans like us we

all these dreams of conquering other

planets and other galaxies it really

can't be done because our B our minds

can easily go to outter space yeah but

our bodies can't we evolved for billions

of years on this specific planet we are

adapted to this atmosphere to this

gravity to this sun taking humans to

Mars living on Mars then on Jupiter then

on other Solo System can't almost can't

be done but for AIS very easy so we

could face a situation when you have a

this AI civilization spreading spreading

univers yeah but losing all touch yeah

is what is what really matters yeah

there's a quote then I'll let the Suzuki

roshi is a z zen teacher he said the mo

what what's the most important thing I

got this from John in his book what's

the most important thing and his answer

the most most important thing is

remembering what's the most important

thing and it's and it's it's a very

likelihood that we're going to forget

the most important thing go ahead cool

uh so she asked about money and and

networks and organizations and impacting

networks very briefly I think that if

and if you want to make a change in the

world you have to cooperate with other

people which means either joining or

starting an organization 50 people

working together as part of a community

of an organization can make a much much

bigger difference in the world than 500

isolated individuals each trying to do

just just my thing so uh there many of

course uh uh challenges because

organizations are made of people and

each one is also bringing their own

issues and problems into it but it if

you really want to make a change in the

world organizations is is the way to go

we're going to get to one more and we'll

see yeah thank you so much thank you

well I mean first I don't Advocate I

don't invite people to become I'm

pointing that uh we are on a trajectory

of humanity pursuing this dream which

could be very very harmful of trying to

turn ourselves into gods and yes the

seed is is mythologies are extremely

powerful you plant a seed there are

consequences uh we've been dreaming

about Gods so much for thousands of

years that now that we are so powerful

and people think okay what will we do

with all that power okay let's become

Gods so the the the myth come back to to

haunt us in in this sense it's not

something I'm advocating it's not

something I'm I'm for uh so how do you

get rid of a such a a powerful myth of

of of any kind again this is very very

difficult because the myth is kind of

woven into the entire world around us

even if we don't realize it and

meditation is a way to loosen its grip

it's again it's a practice that let

let's just see what is really happening

right now and not allowing or

encouraging the brain to just keep

creating more and more stories and and

and mythologies if you have if you just

replace one story with another story uh

it can create even bigger problems than

before so and ideally it's just to

loosen the grip of of the stories on us

thank you so we're just about at a time

um final thoughts words John final

thoughts words you've all anything that

we did not touch or that you want to

name that um I'm I'm I have this thought

moving through my mind um and the

thought is saying the story of no

story uh not sure exactly what it means

but uh I'm sort of just wondering

whether there's a story that's big

enough for this moment that we could all

in some sense connect connect with that

recognizes our common Humanity in a

certain way and also our common dilemas

in a certain way that is ethical and

that would

uh recognize suffering and the causes of

suffering and liberate them to whatever

degree we can in our individual actions

and in organizing communities and

institutions that actually function

effectively in in those kinds of a ways

so

uh you know when I read a lot of the

stuff about the

AI I I worry about the world that my

grandchildren will be growing up in and

what they would even need to navigate

that world or survive that world in a

certain way uh and I keep coming back to

the analog I kind of trust in something

about this as I said 13.8 billion years

of evolution where you know our very

blood the the hemoglobin

uh you know that he is a porine fourfold

porine ring that has an iron atom at the

mo at the at the in the middle of it

which is comes from exploding Supernova

long before there was a solar system

here that's inside every one of our

blood cells the green outside in the

trees is chlorophyll which has the same

porer and ring evolved the same porer

and rings but billions of years earlier

than life uh than uh animal life and so

before for hemoglobin and it has a

magnesium atom at the center of that

ring uh and that's uh how we capture the

sunlight from our Star to give life to

the planet Earth so we are remarkable

miraculous beings in every way shape and

form and just the fact that we can wag

our tongues move the air and our ears

decoded and you can follow this sentence

and I don't know where it's going to

lead uh and everybody else can follow it

too this is a kind of Genius a kind of

remarkable capacity that we all have and

if we could learn I think through your

analysis of history and of these

information networks that go back and

what you were talking about the the sort

of the printing press and then what

happened with the witches and and and

all of that that that everything has un

unforeseen consequences and is there a

way that we can kind of take something

that we know to be in some sense

liberative and help liberate ourselves

in uh the ways that I think we are kind

of in agreement really need to happen uh

to some degree or other sooner rather

than later that there's a certain degree

of urgency even if we just talking about

global warming without talking about war

and you know sort of everything else and

and AI so that would be you have any

final thoughts as we as we close this

yeah I think about the issue of a new

story or the story of no story so again

the the the simplest recommendation

would be to try and go down to to the

level of the

body uh because the minds in different

places and are supercharged by the

algorithms and the AIS they are taking

us in extremely different directions and

creating more and more disunity right

and uh to stay together uh the place to

go is to go to the body and going

thinking about the the the atoms in the

blood and the iron and the Magnesium

it's interesting to think that each of

our bodies is made of atoms from all

over the world and for basically

statistically speaking I think it's it's

that from almost all the people who

lived in the past yeah like

statistically speaking because we

constantly breathe out Breathe In

Breathe Out breathe in

atoms that there is a very high

probability that each one of us in this

room has a few atoms in our body which

were once part of Buddha's body

but also that were once part of Hitler's

body yeah and n and yeah and everybody

because you know just statistically you

throw all these atoms you mix the

atmosphere you take back in something

comes and the atoms have no memory

unlike humans who go around carrying the

history of the religion of their people

on their back the atoms are

free like they don't care if they were

once part of the mustache of Hitler or

they were once spout of the foot of

Buddha an oxygen atom is an oxygen atom

doing whatever they do and um with

regard to no story some no story silence

uh which is where we began which is wait

for which is awareness yeah beautiful

our time is up thank you you all thank

you John it's a pleasure I hope you had

a a n i I learned a lot and I uh will go

away with this uh feeling uh I still use

your children's book The Unstoppable us

that there's a power of humanity and

there's also a danger of humanity and

we're kind of coming up to this

precipice uh that might lean one way or

lean another way and I can't control

which way we lean uh but it's just an

honor to be here with the two of you and

exploring how Consciousness potentially

might rise and might expand to meet the

challenges of its time and I'm excited

thank you sain for and the whole team

here uh for of wisdom 2.0 for uh

catalyzing and tending this of course

this conversation yeah so thank you

thank all of you as well