Original subtitles

- One night my phone rang.

- You have a prepaid call from an inmate

at the California State Prison,

San Quentin, California.

- Bittaker had a series of heart attacks.

- Teenagers brutally attacked.

Roy Norris and Lawrence Bittaker...

- Raping and murdering five teenage girls.

- The evil that these guys caused--

it really captured the fear of the city of Los Angeles.

- Just a lot more careful about where I go.

- I'm afraid to be walking down the street.

- Lawrence Bittaker and his partner, Roy Norris,

were known as the Toolbox Killers.

- Bittaker was the most evil man

because of that toolbox.

- Pliers, vise grips,

ice picks.

- I thought Roy Norris was very strange.

- I think he hated women.

- He creeped me out.

- I interviewed Lawrence Bittaker,

the most sadistic serial killer

on San Quentin's death row, for over five years.

He used to say to me, "If I just had one good parent,

I wouldn't have become this monster."

- The police followed Norris, and, boy, did they find a lot.

- Hundreds of pictures of young girls

were found in their possession.

- Everyone one of these photographs

represents a potential victim.

- I thought, "He's gonna kill me in the courtroom."

- Oh, I thought about killing Lawrence Bittaker at the trial.

I would dream that I had a gun.

- He was sexually aroused by their screams and their cries.

- Bittaker finds out that she is a virgin.

He wants to audio-record the rape of a virgin.

- They begin to play the tape.

- The courtroom was stunned.

- I first came

across Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris,

the Toolbox Killers--

it was in a criminology textbook.

I remember it like it was yesterday.

And I read about what they did with the van...

with the girls,

with the ice pick through the ears,

and the torture for days.

And I just remember, I dropped the book

'cause I was so floored by the level of sadism.

I always wondered what it took to get to that level of sadism,

how their progression from their childhood

to committing such violent, heinous acts transpired.

That was something I really wanted to explore.

I majored in forensic psychology.

I had this incredible professor.

He said, "If you start doing your own study,

"this will give you a leg up

when you go for higher education."

I developed this questionnaire that I sent out to--

I think it was, like, 80 different serial killers.

My only goal was to create a set of questions

that they can't manipulate so we can catch

these violent patterns and behaviors early on,

before these other offenders go on to do a life of crime,

like Lawrence Bittaker.

I didn't even think I was gonna get a response back.

And I was like, "They're not gonna help me with a study,"

you know.

I ended up getting a crazy amount of responses,

and I was shocked.

But when I first reached out to Bittaker,

he wrote me back saying he didn't want to talk to me,

he didn't want to do the survey.

He's in his late 70s at this point,

and he didn't want to talk about the crimes.

So many journalists tried to get him to do interviews

over the years, but he just denied everybody.

I had already collected so much data

from the other inmates.

Why am I bothering with one

that is so challenging to deal with?

But he was the most sadistic serial killer

in American history, the worst of the worst,

and I wanted to try to find out

if he was hiding something for all these years.

I didn't take no for an answer,

and I just kept writing and writing

for years and years and years.

One day, he finally agreed to talk to me.

- This call is being recorded.

If you do not wish to be recorded,

please disconnect at this time.

- Bittaker was really tricky to warm up to

and build the trust and rapport.

It really took a lot of time.

Early on in our relationship,

we used to try to have just, like, normal conversations,

and it was like he just couldn't do it.

- As an FBI agent, I worked in the FBI's BAU,

commonly known as the Behavior Analysis Unit,

and in that unit, I was involved

in working a number of very violent crimes,

most specifically serial murder cases.

When I first met Larry, he was clearly playing

a cat-and-mouse game with me.

Didn't admit to anything.

Said he hadn't done anything wrong.

He didn't give up very much.

- Bittaker, he doesn't see people as individuals.

He sees them as objects to be used and to toss away.

I was a special trial deputy

handling some of the most gruesome murder cases

in L.A. County,

including Charles Manson and his family members.

I always felt that Lawrence Bittaker

was the worst,

even worse than Manson, because of the torture.

- He always said he wanted to be

bigger than Charlie Manson.

My name is Dennis McCarthy.

I was a reporter at the South Bay "Daily Breeze"

in 1981,

and I covered the murder trial of Lawrence Bittaker,

the Toolbox Killer.

Larry was such a fascinating study in evil.

Basically, Bittaker's defense was, "I didn't do it.

It was the other guy." Right? "It was Norris."

- Bittaker and Norris met and spoke in prison.

Their sharing of violent sexual fantasies

really cemented their relationship.

- You had violent Bittaker

and rapist Norris getting together.

Bittaker was the lead.

Norris was the follower.

- Lawrence Bittaker was a near-genius.

He has a 138 IQ.

When you're working with a psychopath,

if you go in and you're pretending

to be something you're not, they can tell.

These guys are smart.

And if you're gonna play games with them,

they're gonna play games with you.

So I go in nonjudgmental.

I build a real, actual,

authentic relationship with them,

and I definitely open up about myself

and my own personal life.

Anytime you're working with offenders

who have antisocial personality,

there's always gonna be a risk.

But once Lawrence Bittaker and I finally felt that trust

and that rapport, he started to reveal stuff

that he had never told anybody else about this case.

- I guess it was a Sunday.

- Bittaker and Norris had been driving all day for 15 hours

just smoking weed

and photographing unsuspecting girls,

when they spotted Cindy Schaefer.

She was dropped off at a church meeting

in Redondo Beach,

and she had left early,

and she was walking back to her grandparents' place,

where she was staying, and they start to trail her.

- The police had no leads.

They had a big, bloody fight.

- She is punching him and just fighting for her life.

- Cindy Schaefer was a very bright young woman.

She was 16 years old.

- Cindy was, from all accounts of everybody who knew her,

just the sweetest and nicest girl

you could have ever imagined.

- She tutored in Spanish, algebra,

and geometry in high school

and just had so many friends.

- She wanted to go to college.

She wanted to study language and teach foreign language,

just like her mother.

- When Bittaker would talk

about how the girl more or less went along with it

once she was inside the van,

as effort on his part to minimize his involvement,

to minimize how serious these crimes were,

he's trying to manage the impression

that you have of him.

- Bittaker, when he was a teenager,

had been placed in a camp in the San Gabriel Mountains,

and he thought that that would be a good place

for them to take their victims,

because nobody would hear them scream.

- Cindy asked if they were gonna kill her.

She said, "I just want you to let me pray

if you're gonna kill me."

- Bittaker and Norris laughed at her,

and Bittaker turned to her, and he said,

"God isn't here, only devils."

- Norris saw that Cindy was crying,

and he just couldn't do it anymore, so he let go,

and he went over to the side of the road and threw up.

Bittaker went to the back of his van

and sectioned a wire coat hanger,

and told Norris to wrap it around her neck and choke her.

And Norris tried to do that manually,

but he couldn't get it tight enough.

So Bittaker got a pair of vise grips

from the back of the van

and tightened it enough so that it finally killed her.

- There were no leads

to explain Cindy's disappearance.

They even found a girl in Tijuana

that they thought might be her,

so they went all the way down to Tijuana and saw the girl,

and, of course, it wasn't Cindy.

Nobody had really any idea.

They, of course, didn't realize

that she was the first victim

of the infamous Toolbox Killers.

- We know that Larry Bittaker was a criminal sexual sadist.

He's an individual who is sexually aroused

by the infliction of physical or emotional pain

on his non-consenting partners.

He wants the victim to scream, to cry.

He wants to see the fear in their eyes.

We know this behavior would have started

at a very, very early age.

- Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker

was born to a teen mother in 1940.

Bittaker's father was violent, and his mother was a drinker.

She would go and leave him and his little brother home alone

while she went out and partied.

Soon, the family convinced her to give up the two boys.

They were adopted by different aunts and uncles

within the family.

- At some point, something happened to him

when he was a little boy.

Sexually sadistic behaviors are learned

when their sexual identity is being formed.

So, whether Larry had been himself the victim

of some kind of sexual abuse,

that more than likely shaped his development

as a sexual sadist.

- Bittaker was raised by an aunt and uncle.

They provided what would have been a good life

for a normal person,

but Bittaker was not a normal person.

- Even in his 70s,

he would talk about the mother who gave him up.

That was a big part of where his rage came from.

He actually had a plan to go find her and kill her.

He always felt like, if she had kept him,

he would have never become a monster.

He had amazing grades. He was very smart.

He was tested early with a 138 IQ.

But he was unmotivated and unchallenged.

He loved to play with fire,

and he did burn down a couple sheds.

He was doing it to try to get

his adoptive parents', you know, attention.

- And she took a cigarette

and just put it all over his body,

in a way that seemed like torture.

- Larry began to manifest his interest in torturing things

by the time he was adolescent.

One time he told me that he was upset.

They had rabbits, and he went outside with a pair of pliers,

and he removed the teeth of one of the rabbits with the pliers.

- As a teenager, he would wander around the streets

at night.

But then it started to escalate,

when he would move furniture around

so people knew that someone had been in their house,

just so people feel unsafe in their own homes.

So you're seeing the early signs of sadism.

- A serial sexual killer-- they're born predators.

They hunt human beings.

And so his practice--

following people, watching people,

walking around his neighborhood late at night--

is a result of his psychopathy,

which has a genetic link to it.

When sexuality and violence becomes intertwined,

now you have these compulsion and these urges to go out

and kidnap people and torture them,

that's a very, very deadly combination.

- Lawrence Bittaker was very society awkward.

He reports that he didn't have any friends growing up,

but he was able to get a girlfriend in high school.

Mary Anne was a Catholic school girl--

Blonde hair, big blue eyes.

If you look at the victims, they look very similar.

She also wore a cross,

and he actually made some of the victims

actually put on a cross during his crimes.

Bittaker told me that he had recorded

a make-out session with this girlfriend.

I was really blown away,

'cause I think this is where the paraphilic urges started.

What's chilling is she does remember

him taking her up to San Gabriel Mountains,

and they would go and hang out and hike.

I've always wondered if that's why he took

the victims there--is because of this first girlfriend,

his first rejection.

- Bittaker had what's known

as a polymorphous perverse personality.

That means that he was able

to commit any crime on the books

just for his own pleasure.

- His psychopathy was not something that he worried about

or he fretted about or he was concerned about.

- When Lawrence Bittaker was in juvie,

they did a ton of evaluations,

and they're seeing that he is violent

with anger issues and deeply disturbed.

There were warning signs from the beginning.

- In 1974, Bittaker was living in the Hollywood area.

He went into a Ralph's market,

and he stole a couple of steaks.

- It was a miracle this guy survived.

By him stabbing this clerk,

it really changed the lives of everybody--

this fateful moment that sent him

to California Men's Colony, CMC East.

This is where Lawrence Bittaker

meets Roy Norris.

- Roy Norris was a rapist.

He was a serial rapist.

Who was worse?

I don't think I could even say,

'cause when they partnered up, they were both horrible.

- I think he hated women.

- He was the one who typically grabbed the grabs

and subdued them.

He was a much bigger guy. He was over 200 pounds.

- He was a big oaf.

His IQ--I have no idea what it was,

but it couldn't be anywhere near Bittaker's IQ.

- He wasn't a liar and an actor like Larry was.

Like, Larry pulled it off.

Norris-- you felt uncomfortable.

- So he was definitely the muscle of the two,

and Bittaker was the brains.

- I prosecuted Roy Norris

for rape in 1975.

He was sentenced from three years to life

in the California Men's Colony,

East Facility, in San Luis Obispo,

where he met Lawrence Bittaker, who was already there.

- How they met, actually,

is they would make jewelry together.

And they did tell an inmate named Richard Shoopman,

who was in there for killing a young college girl.

- Shoopman would write up their fantasies

and sell them to other prisoners.

- They talked about getting a cabin in the woods.

They talked about getting a trailer.

They even talked about a cave.

- And they would fantasize

about what they were gonna do when they got out.

- It was Roy who also told me that part of their fantasies,

as they plotted out what they were gonna do,

was that they were going to kidnap a girl

for every teen year.

Once they got out, they would kidnap 13-year-old,

14-year-old, 15-year-old...

It was the perfect storm when they hooked up.

- Back in the '70s,

rape wasn't treated as seriously as it is nowadays.

Another factor--both of them have antisocial personality,

so they are conning

the, you know, psychologist constantly

and telling him, you know, they're fine,

they're rehabilitated, they can go back out into society.

So Bittaker got out of jail first,

and he went to Los Angeles.

And then he got a job as a skilled machinist in Burbank.

Roy Norris gets out a couple months right after Bittaker.

He actually wanted Norris to quit his job

to build a compound,

and he was gonna financially take care of him.

There was a very, like, teacher-student vibe to them.

And I noticed, even with my relationship with Bittaker,

it was a very student-teacher.

It was like, he's Hannibal, I'm Clarice.

He loved, like, that role and that dynamic,

and loved that he was teaching me

about, you know, the psychopathy.

And I think that was the same dynamic with him and Norris.

- They talked about Bittaker wanting a van

and specifically a van with a sliding door,

'cause that way they could get victims in the van quicker.

- Bittaker buys, you know, the infamous silver van,

which they named Murder Mack.

They start personalizing this van.

- They had police scanners.

He put a fold-down bed in the back.

- They put flooring down.

They put a shag green carpet down.

They put the makeshift bed with the toolbox--

the infamous toolbox-- underneath the bed

to use for their torture.

They also had the walkie-talkies,

which they used to communicate back and forth.

- And then they started going to The Strand

in the South Bay area,

taking photographs of young teenage girls

in their skimpy bikinis and roller skating.

- They did a trip up to San Gabriel Mountains.

Bittaker had wanted to show Norris

all these, like, remote fire roads

that they could use.

- He thought that that would be a good place

for them to take their victims,

because nobody would hear them scream,

and they could dump the bodies

down the very steep ravines.

- There's a picture of Bittaker bending down,

breaking off the lock onto this fire road

so they would have complete access to this road.

- Bittaker took a photograph of Norris...

On the fire road, pointing to the steep ravine.

- Now, these look like innocent pictures,

but when they were sent to Shoopman,

they were a message to Shoopman

that, "We are actually going through with this plan.

We're doing it. We're bringing victims here."

They have this tricked-out murder van,

and then they have the mountains and the woods.

I mean, it's very clear everything was planned.

And that was Bittaker.

He was a planner. He was a thinker.

He thought every scenario through.

- Beach towns down in the South Bay

were considered very safe.

You know, they were a place where airline pilots

and stews hung out,

because it was close to LAX

and only a couple of feet

from some of the most beautiful beach area

in all of California.

A lot of young girls, a lot of muscle builders.

It was a happening place, man.

Everybody was going down to The Strand,

because that's where the action was.

Unfortunately, there was so much action,

that's where Bittaker and Norris

went to find their victims.

- Hitchhiking was part of the culture.

I myself had tried it a couple times.

My girlfriends wanted to always, you know,

in the summer, hitchhike to the park

that wasn't very far away.

But I didn't know my sister was hitchhiking

until right before she was abducted.

- Andrea Hall was an 18-year-old girl from Ohio.

She was spotted

by Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris

only two weeks after they had killed Cindy.

Andrea had been at the beach with her sister and her kids.

She had a boyfriend who lived out in Torrance.

She wasn't too far from the boyfriend's place.

So, to get there, she hitchhiked.

- She was hitchhiking down Pacific Coast Highway.

She got in the car with somebody else first,

and followed that car,

thinking that that person may not want to take her

as far as she wanted to go.

- They followed this car for miles

until he had let her out.

And then she started hitchhiking again,

'cause she wasn't at the location she needed to be.

And that's when Norris went and hid under the bed,

the makeshift bed, and Bittaker came up,

rolled down the window and said, "Hey, want a ride?"

- She made it easy for these two perpetrators.

All they had to do was pick her up, and they did.

My sister looked in. She got in.

Lawrence told her that there was a cooler

in the back with cold drinks.

So she got up and went back there.

And Roy Norris came up

and started accosting her.

- She starts fighting, and she fought like a bull.

And, I mean, she is punching him

and just fighting for her life.

He saw that she was overpowering Norris,

so he slammed on the brakes,

and they both tumbled backwards.

- They had a big bloody fight,

and Norris finally got control of her.

They went to the mountain area again,

to a place we now know it's called

the Upper Monroe Truck Trail.

They're fire roads.

Bittaker had a sleeping bag, a blanket, walkie-talkie,

so he could stay in contact with Norris,

and a camera.

It was like a Polaroid camera.

It would shoot the picture out,

so you didn't have to take it in to a nosy film developer

who would see pictures of girls in great distress.

- Bittaker had told me in some of my interviews with him,

he had used, you know, the pliers on her.

When he took her up on that hill,

he had her bound, and he took a camera.

- He took one...

just gut-wrenching photograph of her.

- He had said, "I'm going to kill you,"

and snapped a picture of her face--

the look on her face when he said that.

That is true sadism.

- She was his first attempt with an ice pick in the ear,

and that idea came from a movie we saw in prison.

- When you puncture an eardrum,

it's one of the most severe, severe types of pain.

You would almost, like, go deaf instantly

and just hear blood through your brain.

But it wouldn't kill you instantly.

It would be a very slow, painful death.

- But then he manually strangled her

until she was dead.

- Andrea Hall's body was never found.

- A small piece of myself died every day

for 13 1/2 years.

It was tough.

- When Andrea went missing, the police had no leads.

Her mother in Ohio was beside herself

because she had talked to Andrea at least once a week.

- So, when I did start digging into the case

and I saw that Cindy and Andrea have never been found

in all these years,

something told me to keep working.

You know, could this be something

that I could get from him, some information

to try to get the locations of the two girls?

When I talked to Andrea's sister for the first time--

Julie--she just said to me--

She was bawling, and I was bawling,

and she's like, "We've never given up hope."

And just hearing her say,

you know, "We've never given up hope"...

yeah, it was a really emotional conversation...

To have.

- You know, my mother said to my sister Pamela,

whose son drowned in the ocean one day--

she said, "At least you had his body, Pammy,"

because we never had a body.

We never found her.

We've still been looking for her.

It's almost 43 years.

- When Bittaker was about 78,

he starts telling me, you know,

he's starting to have emotions he never had before.

He'll watch a commercial and start crying.

He once said to me--

he goes, "Do you understand what it feels like

"to actually put an ice pick through someone's ear

and not feel anything?"

Before, he felt like a void,

and now he's feeling, like,

a flood of emotion for the first time ever.

He calls it a dam breaking.

He's having a new experience, a new emotion,

and what he called and wrote about--

he described as becoming fully human.

- I find it very hard to believe that any one

of those psychological professionals at San Quentin

would have given him that diagnosis,

that, "Once you were, but now you're not."

I talked with him about his lack of empathy,

and I recall one time he said he would find himself

crying during soap operas.

And I remember it was-- I couldn't control it.

I started laughing and saying,

"You have got to be kidding me. It's absurd.

You know it's absurd, and I know it's absurd."

And he starting laughing, too.

When he engages in behavior with people

where he's coming across as caring and concerned

or seems to show a soft side of him,

it's the FBI training in me that says,

"Be very careful that this is not just another way

to try to manipulate the situation."

- My name's Tracee Whitney, and in 1979,

I lived at the Scott's Motel next to Lawrence Bittaker.

I saw him daily when I was at the hotel.

The Scott's Motel was a very dingy,

cheap hotel.

Burbank Police knew that people that lived there

were basically homeless.

I was 18.

A lot of younger people my age would party

in each other's rooms.

Larry would give us money.

He would give us weed. He would give us beer.

I think Larry wanted to be liked.

It was as if Larry loved

having a gang of girls around him, you know?

Like, it made him somebody.

- Larry chose to live in a rundown place

over a much more expensive place that he could afford

because it did give him access to young girls.

It gave him access to people

that he could manipulate and dominate and impress.

- I found out I was pregnant.

I attempted to make a phone call to my family

to beg them to allow me to come home

and live there while I figured out what I was gonna do,

and they refused to do it, and they hung up.

When I turned around, Larry was standing behind me

and had heard the conversation,

and I was extremely upset.

And he said, "If you need something--

"if you need maternity clothes or a place to sleep,

I'll pay for it."

- Larry had a soft spot for young pregnant girls,

because he was always the predator.

- He was very nice to me, you know,

and I get pretty upset when I say that...

knowing what I know.

But it's the truth. He was very kind to me.

- You have to look at it through the lens

of this was a very, very, very dangerous sexual predator

who preyed upon young teenage girls,

who dominated them, took advantage of them.

And so, while he may be extending a kindness,

there would have been ulterior motives.

What was he getting back in return?

I think it's very possible that Larry was grooming them.

- He would drive me to the beach.

He would drive me any place I wanted to go.

So, we spent a lot of time in his...

A lot of time alone in his van.

I had no clue, no idea the things that he was doing.

The last time I was with Larry,

I was in the van with him alone,

and we got in an argument about something,

and I don't remember what it was.

He pulled a gun out, and he said to me...

"The only reason you're alive is 'cause you're pregnant."

And...

I remember jumping out of that van so fast.

I don't even know how--

I don't know how he didn't shoot me,

knowing what I know that he did to other girls.

I don't--I'm really lucky to be alive.

And part of me feels guilty

that I'm alive and those girts aren't.

- In 2018, I had gotten pregnant.

One week later,

the place I was working went into bankruptcy,

and now I was homeless,

jobless, and pregnant and alone.

It was a really, really dark time in my life.

But Bittaker was the one calling me,

saying, "How did the doctor's go?"

For the first time ever,

he actually agreed to be interviewed in person,

so I started making plans to go meet him.

My doctor almost had a heart attack

when I told her I was gonna go to San Quentin

to interview serial killers, 7 1/2 months pregnant.

She literally just drops the pen, and she goes,

"I don't even know how to put this in my notes."

The guys on death row actually really networked

and helped me make it possible to actually come out there.

They really came to my rescue, in a sense.

They found me a place to stay.

One of the wives of the death row inmates

actually, like, took me in.

The goal with any interview is to get unknown information.

So, of course, with having two girls

that have never been found,

you want to find their location for their families.

- Detectives at Hermosa Beach

wanted to have a rolling surveillance of Norris.

- She was paid to make certain responses.

She was having difficulty following those directions.

- There was gasps in the courtroom.

- He was dying.

He was a ball of emotions and anxious and upset.

- When I first interviewed Lawrence Bittaker in person

at San Quentin's death row,

I was 7 1/2 months pregnant.

I was, like, wobbling on death row.

It was wild--even the correctional officers

are looking at me, like, "What are you doing?"

- When you're walking into death row at San Quentin,

you're walking across the yard...

people out there milling around.

Prisons are not safe environments

for the other inmates,

for the correctional officers, and once you're inside,

you don't have any control over what happens to you.

- You're signing waivers that say if there's a riot,

no one's gonna come for you or fight for you.

It's not like a phone call like you see in the movies.

It's a dog kennel-style cage,

and they padlock you in.

Two chairs and a little table,

and you're sitting there just face-to-face.

The correction officers brought Lawrence Bittaker down.

And I remember, when he first saw me

and, like, how big I was,

like, his eyes bugged out of his head.

He was so taken back.

He was kind of, like, socially awkward, I remember.

We sat in the cage,

and he wouldn't even look at me in the eye

for a good 2 1/2 hours.

He was that shy when we first met.

But something inside of me kept saying,

"Keep going back to this guy."

It was almost like an intuition.

There was something more to be gained with him.

A couple months later, I went to the hospital.

Bittaker was even on the phone with me when I was in labor.

Bittaker had this love for my son.

I think he almost sees himself

as, like, a surrogate father for Romeo or grandfather.

It was Romeo's first birthday party.

I had sent him a picture.

He would bring that picture of him with all the balloons

and show it off to everybody on the row.

I think he looked at Romeo and I

as, like, his only family.

He even put me down as his next of kin in the will.

So, yeah, I would say

I definitely did the deepest dive into Lawrence Bittaker.

- My experience with psychopaths

is that they don't bond with other people.

The risks of thinking you're getting really close

to someone who's like that

and giving up a lot of personal information

to someone that's incarcerated could be problematic.

You can't be 100% sure whatsoever

that that information won't compromise you.

- It is a tightrope you're walking.

But, you know, the more and more

you're building that trust and that relationship,

the more and more you can push that envelope.

And you kind of see that develop

with my interviews with Bittaker.

He had made me say a couple promises to him,

and one of the promises I made to him

was I would always be a good mother.

He used to say to me, "If I just had one good parent--

"if I had one good parent,

I wouldn't have become this monster."

The third and fourth victims of the Toolbox Killers

were Leah Lamp and Jackie Gilliam.

- In 1979, I was 14 years old.

I met Jackie when she moved into the apartment complex

next door to ours,

and we became fast friends.

Jackie was beautiful. She was amazing.

This smile is so genuine.

Jackie stayed at my house a lot,

and we used to spend a lot of time

taking the bus to the Santa Monica Beach,

pretty much every day in the summer.

One day she told me that she was gonna go

to Redondo Beach to stay with her stepsister,

and I never heard from her again.

- Leah Lamp was 13.

She was very bright.

Had just finished junior high school,

and she was ready to start high school in the fall.

Her mother had a new wardrobe for her,

and she was really looking forward to it.

Jackie met Leah Lamp, and they had become friends.

One day, Leah and Jackie decided to go to the beach.

- Bittaker and Norris saw them

and came up and asked them if they needed a ride.

- When they got into the van,

Norris and Bittaker offered them a joint,

and they were sitting in the back of the van

with Norris, smoking this joint.

That is when Norris took a homemade sap.

- It was full of BBs, really heavy.

And he hit Leah in the head with it and knocked her out.

- While Leah was down, he tried to grab Jackie.

- At some point, Leah regained consciousness

and tried to get out of the van.

- It was on front of tennis courts,

so people were playing tennis

and actually stopped, looked over.

Leah Lamp jumped out of the van, screaming.

- Bittaker stopped the van, came around,

and slugged Leah in the face as hard as he could,

knocking her back.

He turned to everybody and said,

"She's having a bad LSD trip."

- Leah Lamp was 13 years old,

and Jackie Gilliam was 15 years old.

When they got into the van, Norris took a homemade sap,

hit Leah Lamp over the back of the head with it.

While Leah was down, he then tried to grab Jackie.

- At some point, Leah regained consciousness

and tried to get out of the van.

- Leah Lamp actually jumped out of the van, screaming.

It was in front of tennis courts.

So people were playing tennis

and actually stopped, looked over.

- Bittaker stopped the van, came around,

and slugged Leah in the face as hard as he could,

knocking her back.

- He turned to everybody and said,

"She's having a bad LSD trip. I'm just taking her home."

They took the girls up to San Gabriel Mountain.

- Bittaker told Jackie that he was gonna rape her

and she better pretend that she was enjoying it.

- Bittaker finds out that she is a virgin,

and he wants to audio-record the rape of a virgin.

So he took the audio recorder,

and when he was raping Jackie, she was screaming.

That is not what he admitted later in person.

You know, these girls were scared out of their mind.

Sadists are getting off on that fear.

That's what they love. That's what they want to see.

- When Bittaker would talk

about the girls went willingly with him,

he's trying to minimize any responsibility

he has for these murders.

- There was a ton of photographs taken

of Jackie Gilliam-- sexual acts with Bittaker.

What's really haunting about the pictures

with Jackie Gilliam is,

you know, it's very clear

she has a black eye in the pictures.

Her ankles are bound. Her wrists are bound.

She's naked in the back of a van.

And she has a smile on her face.

Obviously Bittaker forced her to smile

during these pictures that he took of her.

- He showed some of these photographs to other people,

so he had no sense of what's appropriate

and what's not appropriate.

So he used it to masturbate,

and then he used it thinking he was impressing people.

- Bittaker decides, "Well, we don't have

"to go to work tomorrow,

so let's sleep with the girls overnight."

- They slept in the van, and they took shifts sleeping

and watching the girls.

- Bittaker was in the van. Norris stood guard.

- Bittaker and Roy Norris kept them the longest.

It was somewhere around 48 hours.

- Eventually Bittaker decided

that he had had enough, and so...

he cradled Jackie's head in one hand,

took the ice pick with the other hand,

and drove it into her ear canal,

into the brain.

Went to take it out, but the handle came off.

- When Jackie's skull was found,

the ice pick was embedded into the skull.

- And then they got the girls' bodies

much the way they did with Cindy,

and they tossed them as far as they could

down this really steep ravine.

- Jackie Gilliam and Leah Lamp were the only two victims

that were found up on San Gabriel Mountain.

It was just partial remains of their bones were recovered.

They told me she was tortured.

They told me there was an ice pick stuck in her ear.

It wasn't a pretty picture, the things they said.

- It's just devastating.

I remember one day,

Leah Lamp's mother was in my office.

Her name was Myrna Carlisle.

And I said, "Myrna, you don't look so good.

Have you been sleeping all right?"

She said, "I don't sleep.

"I have two eight-hour jobs,

"one in the daytime and one at night,

"because I can't go to sleep, because if I sleep,

I have nightmares about how my daughter was murdered."

And, oh, my gosh.

- I don't think at that age I understood

really what was going on

until the detectives started coming to my house.

It was horrible hearing things like that

about one of my best friends.

Jackie didn't deserve that.

- Both Bittaker and Norris

knew that the police had nothing on them

and that they were not being looked for.

They started to feel invincible,

and they started getting bolder and bolder.

- October 31, 1979--

Bittaker and Norris were out looking for victims.

It was kind of late at night.

- They were away from The Strand.

They were out in the Valley,

which was a deviation from their normal pattern.

Shirley Lynette Ledford--

just a young girl

in the wrong place at the wrong time.

- She was a 16-year-old girl who lived in Burbank.

- She had a boyfriend. Had a lot of friends.

- She was a wonderful person.

She just thought only the best of people.

- Lynette had been at a Halloween party.

- All the friends I've talked to

said they had a great time at the party.

She was happy.

- She was hitchhiking home.

- Bittaker and Norris spotted her.

- We picked her up north of Burbank,

and she jumped right in.

I mean, she wanted a ride somewhere.

Bittaker grabbed her and threw her in the back.

He and I both struggled with her.

You know, he pulled out a knife.

- She grabbed the knife blade

and cut her finger pretty seriously.

- If you look at Lynette Ledford...

It's showing this progression of sadism

and how much worse they are getting

with each and every murder.

- Shirley Lynette Ledford--

just a young girl in the wrong place and the wrong time.

- Bittaker grabbed Lynette

and threw her into the back of the van.

Bittaker had a knife.

She grabbed the knife blade

and cut her finger pretty seriously.

- They were able to get her bound in the back of the van.

They didn't bring her to the mountains.

They brought her to, like, a gravel dirt path,

somewhere isolated but still in Burbank.

That's where they proceeded to torture and rape her.

During the time of these rape and torture,

Bittaker and Norris are making her play along

that she likes it.

- Bittaker wasn't after loving porn,

and I'm not even sure what that phrase means.

This tape was gonna be used

for his own sexual gratification

after the attack had ended.

Bittaker would want to listen to it again

as he thought about what he had done to his victims.

- She was beaten around the chest,

around the face.

- Bittaker raped her and tortured her

with pliers and screwdriver.

He and Norris then traded spots.

Norris, to get her to scream,

hit her on the elbow with a sledgehammer.

- They wanted to capture the girl's scream,

and the girls' screams is what got them off.

So, you know, if she wasn't screaming

as loud enough as they wanted,

the torture kept getting worse and worse.

- When Larry talks about it being spontaneous,

it's an effort to take away the criminality from it.

And yet, they have a van that they purposely soundproofed.

They engaged in predatory behavior.

- Roy Norris took a coat hanger

and wrapped it around her neck and used pliers to twist it.

When they found her body

and took this metal coat hanger off of her neck,

it was the size of a silver dollar.

That's how much he had twisted it around her neck.

- It was, like, getting late,

real late in the early morning.

I had to be back to work at 7:30.

I had a long way to drive.

We finally just decided that we'd just dump her off,

you know, probably on somebody's lawn,

more than anything else,

to see what reaction we would get in the papers,

'cause he wanted to know how society would react to it,

I guess.

- The next day, the woman's property who it was on,

she actually thought it was a mannequin from Halloween.

Lynette was discarded there for the purpose

of messing with the cops and the press.

They wanted to get a reaction from everybody.

There was a lot more girls they were already stalking

and planning to attack at this point.

One was an airline stewardess,

and one was a 13-year-old girl in a residential neighborhood.

- I believe that Roy and Larry would have continued

to kidnap, assault, and torture young girls

until they got caught.

They would not have stopped.

- When Roy was in jail,

he became friends with a guy named Joe Jackson.

One day, Roy tells Jackson that he has been kidnapping,

raping, and murdering girls

all over the South Bay with Lawrence Bittaker.

- Told me that he killed them

because this way he could sleep at night

and not have to worry about being identified.

- It disturbed, you know, Jackson so much, so deeply

that even a serial rapist himself went to the cops.

- Detectives at Hermosa Beach,

Paul Bynum and his partner, Tom Cray,

got really interested in these guys.

Bynum started thinking more about it

and said, "You know, this guy isn't smart enough

to cook up these facts."

And they wanted to have a rolling surveillance

of Norris.

They followed Norris.

Norris stopped at a drugstore,

and he left a shopping bag in the front seat, open.

Bynum looked in

and saw that the shopping bag was full of marijuana.

So the police came up and stuck a gun in his ear,

said, "I'm putting you under arrest for parole violation,"

and that meant that they could search Norris' residence.

And, boy, did they find a lot in Norris' residence.

They found about 500 photographs of young women

taken in supermarket parking lots,

women's gyms, girls walking home from high school.

- Every one of these photographs

represents a potential victim.

- They also found the photograph

of the girl who was nude from the waist up,

with her hands folded behind her head,

who we now know is Jackie Gilliam.

While they were there, Bittaker called and said,

"Well, where's Norris?"

And somebody said,

"Oh, well, he's up on the roof fixing his antenna."

Well, Bittaker thought that there was something fishy,

so he hurriedly cleaned out his van.

- The photographs, the tapes--

he does an entire sweep of this van.

He got rid of everything.

When they were doing a search at Norris' duplex,

they found a little card that said "the Scott's Motel,"

with Bittaker's name on it.

So they sent over the Burbank PD that night.

They kicked in his door and his window.

He was in the shower when they arrested him.

- The Sheriff's Department

identified Roy Norris and Lawrence Bittaker...

- Raping and murdering five teenage girls.

- The evil that these guys caused,

it really captured the fear of the city of Los Angeles.

- Teenagers brutally attacked.

- Just a lot more careful about where I go.

- I'm afraid to be walking down the street.

- I got a call that Bynum and Cray had a case

that they wanted me to review,

and I saw the name Roy Norris, and I thought,

"Wait, but he got sent to prison,

"three years to life.

That can't be the same one."

- One of the suspects, 32-year-old Roy Lewis Norris,

has implicated Lawrence Simon Bittaker.

- It was kind of like pulling teeth,

but Norris eventually signed an agreement

that he could plead guilty to all of the murders,

and he would get a sentence of 45 years to life,

and he would have to lead us to the bodies of the victims.

Norris, of course, was the one leading the searches,

because he knew, supposedly, where the bodies were.

Searches in January didn't find anything.

Went searching on the 8th of February.

Didn't find anything.

And then on the 9th, with the help

of the Sierra Madre Search and Rescue Team,

we climbed down this incredibly steep ravine,

about 300 feet down.

That's where the remains of Jackie and Leah were found.

- It was partial skeletal remains,

only, you know, a few months after they had been killed.

Jackie Gilliam had the ice pick

embedded in the skull.

- Bittaker was not that cooperative.

He said he wanted to talk. He waived his rights.

And he just said, "You ain't got sh--."

- Bittaker stripped this entire van clean,

but he had missed one thing...

the Ledford tape in the cassette player.

- It was like something that none of us

had ever heard before.

I mean, it was the tape recording

of an actual murder.

- The Sheriff's Department

identified Roy Norris and Lawrence Bittaker

as the main suspects in five local rape-murders.

- The jury of seven women and five men

is expected to get the case on Wednesday.

- The Bittaker trial was the first case

in California history

that they allowed cameras in the courtroom,

over the objection of the defense.

Bittaker did not want those cameras in the courtroom.

His attorneys didn't want them in the courtroom.

But the judge, Fredericks,

said, "No, this is too important."

Every newspaper, every television station

had a reporter covering it.

- Norris, you'll recall, pleaded guilty

to all the charges and agreed to testify against Bittaker

in order to avoid the death penalty.

- Bittaker pled not guilty.

Did I think I was gonna get a conviction?

Well, I hoped I would,

but it was not a foregone conclusion.

- The trial is expected to take two months.

Bittaker could get the death penalty if convicted.

- These were all wonderful girls.

I had their pictures on a board

when I was giving my opening statement,

'cause I wanted the jurors to get to know

what these girls were like in life.

- It was scary... scary.

I was uncomfortable in the courtroom

looking at Lawrence Bittaker.

And I hated him for what he had done.

- Norris said he didn't want to kill the girl,

but said he was too afraid

of alleged accomplice Lawrence Bittaker not to.

- Norris was responsible for his own actions,

and he's lying about all of it.

- Roy's version of the crimes, a lot of times,

is very, very different than Bittaker's.

- The defense attorneys came to me first

because Larry was nice to me

and wanted me to testify on his behalf.

They subpoenaed me.

I begged them to not make me say...

In front of the camera

that he was nice to me.

Tracee Lee Peña--

P-E-N-A.

I remember them asking about the gun

and me talking about the gun.

And he was pissed because I brought that up.

He was really pissed.

And I thought, "He's gonna kill me in the courtroom."

Like, you know, that's what's gonna happen.

- Oh, I thought about killing Lawrence Bittaker at the trial.

I would dream that I had a gun,

and I snuck it into the courtroom.

- This afternoon, in a surprise move,

Bittaker took the stand in his own defense.

- Basically Bittaker's defense was,

"I didn't do it. It was the other guy," right?

"It was Norris."

- Mr. Norris and another party

took turns raping her.

Mr. Norris killed her

with two hammer blows to the head.

- Bittaker's defense was that he didn't do it,

that Norris was the killer,

and was trying to blame him.

He said that he wasn't even there

when Cindy Schaefer was murdered.

- Have you ever seen that young lady in person?

- No, sir.

- You ever taken any photographs of this girl?

- No, sir.

- He said Andrea Hall

agreed to sex for $200.

- If she was bound and gagged, as Mr. Norris states,

she wouldn't be able to hit me.

- He said Jackie Gilliam agreed to $600

to pose in the photographs of her taped up.

- She was paid to make certain responses.

She was having difficulty following those directions.

- And that Lynette Ledford was drug-crazed.

- I cannot explain the actions

of a intoxicated individual who's on PCP.

- He never said, "God, I wish Norris hadn't don't that."

You know?

"I wish I had known. I could've stopped him."

None of that.

- The main thing I had going for me

was the Lynette Ledford torture tape.

Nobody has ever had a piece of evidence like that.

- The most dramatic moments of the trial

are expected to come on Wednesday,

when a tape recording of the torture

of the fifth murder victim will be played to the jury.

- Stephen warned me.

He says, "You know, this is gonna be pretty heavy."

They begin to play the tape.

Now, I'm not even gonna try to explain how bad it was.

But just let your imagination think...

of the worst thing you've ever heard,

because this poor girl is just begging for her life.

- The tape was one of the worst things I've ever heard

in my entire professional career.

It should never see the light of day.

It is very, very, very upsetting.

And, frankly, it involves the torture

of an innocent young woman.

And, so, at her expense,

it should never, ever be played for an audience.

- I looked over to the jurors, and they were in shock.

- Two of the jurors openly started to cry.

Maybe half a dozen people sitting in the audience

just got up and left.

- The courtroom artist ran out in tears.

- I just never heard anything like that in my life.

I've never heard screams like that.

I don't know. It was bad.

- As the tape is being played,

Larry is basically looking down at a transcript of the tape.

He's reading along with it. People are crying.

People are leaving the courtroom.

Everything around him

is kind of turning into this chaotic scene,

and these screams are piercing through the air.

He's dead-focused, with no emotion on his face.

- I can tell you that for two years after the trial,

I would have a recurring nightmare

of hearing the girls scream

and running to try and save them

and always getting there too late,

seeing the results of ice picks in the head

and fractured skulls

and nipples ripped off and everything.

And...

you know, I was very depressed.

I won't lie about it.

I didn't have to take antidepressants

after the Manson trial,

but I did after the Bittaker trial.

I'm sorry.

- I think when Bittaker took the stand--

I think that 138 IQ of his

worked in the opposite direction.

I think he truly thought that he could get up there

on the stand and convince the jurors that it wasn't him.

- She's saying, "Don't touch me."

She's not screaming. She's not crying.

She's not sobbing.

- I asked him, "Would you please describe

"for the ladies and gentlemen of the jury

what we hear on the tape of Lynette Ledford?"

And he said, "Oh, it was just pillow talk."

- Mr. Norris was interested in having the sounds

of domination or fear.

I wanted some sounds of...

pillow talk or...

kind of dirty talk.

- That this was all a setup,

that it was just pillow talk.

She was playing along and screaming,

and he had paid her to do that.

- I just told her I liked hearing that type of thing,

and...

I hadn't--didn't have a tape at that time of such a thing,

so I asked her if she would make one for me.

- There was gasps in the courtroom.

- And you almost felt like laughing in his face.

And then when he broke down and started crying,

it was as if we were watching this farce.

For him to all of a sudden have crocodile tears

running down his face,

nobody bought it.

Nobody bought it.

He was the murderer. He was the torturer.

He was the bad guy.

- It took the jury of seven women and five men

less than 2 1/2 days of deliberation

to convict Bittaker of 26 counts,

including kidnapping, rape, torture, and murder.

- Going for the death penalty was only partially my decision.

It had to be okayed by the District Attorney,

who was against capital punishment,

but this case was so egregious that he agreed

that we should seek the death penalty.

If the death penalty isn't proper in this case,

when would it ever be proper?

- The jury went in the room

and just looked around and just nodded.

- Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker should be put to death

by administration of lethal gas.

- They were unanimous within 60 seconds,

giving him the death penalty.

- In 1978, the voters had overwhelmingly approved

the death penalty.

But you had a very liberal Supreme Court at that time.

You had a liberal governor.

It was always thought maybe, with the appeals process,

it wasn't going to happen.

And it ultimately didn't.

- Bittaker sat on death row,

playing bridge and chess.

I was planning on going up there at his execution

and holding up the photographs of the five girls.

But I never got that chance.

It was a terrible case to live through.

I mean, Paul Bynum, who was the investigator

who broke the case,

ended up committing suicide,

and he left a suicide note

saying that he felt

that Bittaker and Norris would get out

and Bittaker would come after him

and that if he killed himself

that maybe Bittaker would let

his wife and daughter live.

- He called me and said he had cancer.

It was serious, and it was a ton

of different types of cancer

spreading throughout his whole body.

- I had pulled out my notes,

and I said, "Let's do, like, a little round of fact-check."

I was like, "The remains of Cindy and Andrea

"have not been found to this day.

Correct?" He's like, "Yes."

And then I'm, like, about to go to my next point,

and he just grabs the paper and the pen,

and he starts drawing a map of the San Gabriel Mountains

and saying Norris gave the wrong location for Cindy.

It's about a mile off from where she actually was.

Then he's like, "Oh, he's so wrong about Andrea."

So he's drawing this,

and he's, like, telling me as he's drawing it.

I messaged Andrea Hall's sister,

and I said, "I know where your sister is."

And she called me.

She's like, "We've never given up hope."

And...

it was just--

how hard I fought to get this information from him...

And just hearing her say, like...

Just hearing her say, you know, "We've never given up hope,"

it just made it all worth it

to get this information to the families.

- The area was never searched.

Stephen Kay said they had searched near there

but not that area.

So my hope is to find my sister and bring her home.

- Laura's approach to Larry

was certainly different than my approach.

But it could have been effective

on several different levels.

It sounds like he did give her information

that he certainly had not given to me.

But now it becomes important

to be able to verify what he did say to her.

- One night Bittaker had a series

of heart attacks during the night,

and he had his heart medication

he was popping all through the night.

He was dying.

He was a ball of emotions and anxious and upset.

- And he was really, you know,

starting to process what he had done.

I think that's when it all started to hit him.

- Friday the 13th, 2019,

I had just returned from California from seeing him.

I got a call that he passed away.

I was sad.

You know, this is someone I've talked to every single day.

We had a friendship. We did have an authentic friendship.

It's been a profound, profound experience.

2 1/2 months right after Bittaker,

Roy Norris died of natural causes.

So many people called them soul mates,

and you got to wonder.

They died like an old, married couple,

like they couldn't live without each other.

- When I heard Bittaker and Norris had died,

I was shocked but happy...

relieved.

I'm sorry that it took so long.

- My mother said, in order for her to heal herself,

that she forgave

Lawrence Bittaker and Roy Norris.

Personally, I can't do that. I cannot forgive them.

- It's taken me my whole...

rest of my life to deal with this...

that somebody...

that was kind to me,

that I trusted...

Was hurting young girls.

- If anybody deserved the death penalty,

it was Lawrence Bittaker.

I'm glad that he was kept alive, though,

because we've learned so much, I believe,

about psychopathy and sadism from him.

It's a challenge to try to find that humanity.

But I would definitely say that I did see some human

in him in our time and in our interviews together.

I do think he was developing feelings,

'cause I don't think it was just to manipulate me

or to tell me what I wanted to hear.

- I don't believe a man at that late stage of life

is gonna turn over a new leaf.

I believe that he tried to convince Laura

that he had empathy because he liked to have her visit.

It was companionship.

- He was actually proud of being psychopathic.

He was proud of not being controlled

by the kinds of emotions

that non-psychopathic people have.

Do I think he just shredded his psychopathy

and became a feeling, loving human being?

Based on my experience, my background, and training,

I do not.

- A lot of people might be like,

"He doesn't deserve kindness.

He doesn't deserve empathy from anybody," you know.

And that's fine for people to have that perception.

I just know that I'm gonna live my life

with empathy and compassion for everyone,

and I'm gonna have no regrets at the end of my life.