Original subtitles

- The San Francisco police are asking for help tonight

in their search for a man who placed

a newspaper advertisement to sell his 1980 Honda.

The car hasn't been seen since then,

nor has the owner, Paul Cosner.

- Paul Cosner disappeared seven months ago

without a trace, a case that attracted nationwide attention

because it was so baffling.

- Paul's sister Sharon says the last time

she spoke to her brother, he was going out

to sell that car.

- Now the first break in the case.

San Francisco police say they found Cosner's car.

- Tonight police are saying the man they found

with Cosner's car is Leonard Lake.

- Police encountered Lake at a South San Francisco

lumber company after his companion, Charles Ng,

allegedly tried to steal a vise.

- Lake killed himself earlier this week

by swallowing a cyanide pill while he was

being questioned by police.

But the evidence he left behind

reveals a horrifying tale of murder

and possibly torture.

- It is probably the most gruesome,

violent investigation in the history of our state.

- Tonight police are searching for Charles Ng,

who was a friend of Lake's.

- Charles Ng, now the object of a nationwide manhunt,

has vowed not to be taken alive.

- As a documentary filmmaker, I discovered the story

of a woman by the name of Sharon Sellitto,

whose brother Paul Cosner went missing

and was possibly murdered in 1984,

after placing an ad for his car

in the "San Francisco Chronicle."

Sharon had no idea she was going

to spend the rest of her life trying to find him.

- It's unbelievable that somebody lost

their life because of this.

I know that's where Paul took his last breaths.

I can't imagine the terror he felt.

Paul was my life.

And he stopped breathing, and Charles Ng is.

You, Charles Ng, you deserve to die.

- At this point in the investigation,

Charles Ng was a suspect in at least nine murders.

But we didn't know at that point where he was.

Later, Lake's ex-wife, Claralyn Balazs,

told us that she believed Charles Ng was

going to Chicago, and then later into Canada.

We were concerned that if Charles were able

to get outof the country, it would certainly

be much more difficult to find him and extradite him.

- It was an all-out manhunt for Charles Ng.

He was immediately placed on the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list.

- This was a very well-publicized hunt

for Charles Ng.

- Charles Ng is being hunted all over the country tonight.

- Ng is a former marine who was

dishonorably discharged for stealing weapons

from a Marine Corps armory in Hawaii.

Men who served with him say Ng, a martial arts expert,

was a strange man who often talked of killing people.

- He was a little off-center at times.

Um, his main interest was just how to dispose of people.

- It's not every day that you pick up the paper

and find out that one of your neighbors

is probably the most wanted man in the United States right now.

- The investigation is now focusing

on Charles Ng, who is still at large.

- Officials consider him dangerous.

He has a military background in weapons and explosives,

and police say he's vowed that he won't be taken alive.

- And after days of searching for Charles Ng,

authorities finally got their first lead.

A man fitting Ng's description had reportedly been spotted

at San Francisco Airport.

- Police learned that on June 2,

Ng had hopped a flight to Chicago.

- We had found out through the FBI

that he stayed for about a week or so

in the Chicago area,

with people that he had met and known from prison.

They helped him leave the Chicago area

and go into Canada.

Once he got there, not quite sure where he went.

- Charles Ng proved to be an elusive fugitive,

always remaining one step ahead of authorities.

Then there was a huge break in the case.

- Finally, after 34 days on the run,

Charles Ng is spotted in Canada.

- Charles Ng goes to a department store

in Calgary, Alberta, where he shoplifts

a can of smoked salmon.

And he's observed by two security guards

leaving the store with the smoked salmon.

They catch Ng.

A struggle ensues.

- I lunged into him with my shoulder,

and I tripped him up with my foot,

and we all fell to the floor.

He was pulling the gun out by that time.

And so I grabbed ahold of the gun.

And he shot off one shot.

- He pulls a gun and shoots the security officer

in the hand.

A couple of Calgary police officers were outside.

They heard the shot and the commotion going on.

They come in and help wrestle Ng to the ground,

and arrest him.

When I found out that they had him in custody

in Calgary, Canada,

I immediately told the FBI, we need to book a flight.

- Ng is the last hope police have in finding out

what went on at the Lake property.

- Although he has not yet been charged with murder,

a Canadian attorney has advised him

not to answer any questions about the videotapes that

reportedly show him and Leonard Lake threatening women,

or the sex torture chamber

at Lake's remote hideaway in Wilseyville.

- I was home when I got the call

from the San Francisco Police Department.

They said, sit down, Sharon.

You're not going to believe it.

They've caught him in Canada.

And I was like, what?

What? How?

I was so happy, because I thought that it

was the beginning of the end.

If nothing else, we wanted my brother's body back so badly.

I thought I was going to be able to bring Paul home.

- With Charles Ng now in custody,

investigators were hopeful that they would

finally get some answers.

Their goal was to get Ng back into the United States

so that they could get justice.

Not only for Paul Cosner, but for the rest

of the victims and their families.

- Charles Ng was arrested

at a Calgary department store yesterday,

when he shot a security guard in the hand.

The guard had stopped him on suspicion of shoplifting.

FBI agents and investigators

from the San Francisco Police Department

and the Calaveras County Sheriff's Office

arrived in Calgary today.

- When we arrived in Canada,

we were met by a large entourage of press

filming us as we were going through the airport.

- Their first order of business,

to interview Charles Ng.

- We definitely wanted to find out

who some of these other people were,

some of the other victims,

who were some of the other bodies that

were buried on the property.

So we had a lot of questions for Charles Ng.

- What investigators did know was that Charles Ng

came from a wealthy family in Hong Kong,

and was expelled from several schools for petty theft.

- He finally gets transferred out by his parents

to his aunt in San Francisco.

His thing is not to be in school.

So he volunteered for the Marines.

- But his compulsion for thievery

eventually got him kicked out of the military

and sent to prison.

After his release, Charles Ng became an unstable drifter,

eventually meeting Leonard Lake

and descending further into darkness.

- When Ng was arrested up in Canada,

we were hoping to get him to talk.

And we just tried to engage him

in a little bit of conversation.

He would not even respond to simple inquiries.

He absolutely shut down.

- During this time when Charles Ng was in custody,

we were hoping for a quick extradition

back to the United States.

That didn't happen.

- Charles Ng had just been arrested in Calgary

for shoplifting

and shooting a security guard in the hand.

So he was likely going to need to serve time

up there in Canada

before they could even talk extradition.

- As for when Ng might be returned to the United States,

that is anybody's guess.

- When we found out that he was going

to be tried in Canada

for shooting the store guard in the hand,

I was disappointed 'cause I thought that,

compared to mass serial killing,

that they should have just put that aside.

But I was afraid they were going

to send them back to China,

and we'd never get any justice.

- Meanwhile, back in Wilseyville,

the investigation at Claralyn Balazs' cabin

had already turned up at least three bodies,

and burn piles containing the remains

of an unknown number of additional victims.

- It just keeps compiling and compiling.

This has become a massive, monstrous investigation.

- Investigators have filled over 50 bags

with evidence and bone fragments.

We can tell you that today they brought out

more bags of human remains, more bags of evidence,

to add to the 50 or so bags

that have already been brought out.

- All we had time to do was just to dig up the bones,

put them in bags, and ship them to the coroner

of San Francisco County.

With the amount of bones that we had recovered

from the property,

there could be between 23 and 32 people.

- Despite the overwhelming amount of human remains,

the medical examiner just couldn't determine

who any of these victims might have been.

At the time, DNA testing just simply wasn't

advanced enough to be of any benefit.

- I would like to know which pile of incinerated bones

is my brother, so I can take what there is back to Ohio.

- While Sharon Sellitto and the other victims' families

waited patiently for answers, back in Canada,

authorities pressed ahead with their own case

against Charles Ng.

- Charles Ng will be in court tomorrow,

where the charges will be read against him.

He is charged with attempted murder

and possession of an illegal weapon.

- Charles is convicted of shooting the security guard,

and ends up sentenced to 4 1/2 years

in prison in Canada.

For the U.S. investigators and the U.S. families,

it was a tough time.

He had 4 1/2 years' sentence in prison

before they could even consider

sending him back to the United States.

- But the reality is, one of the major benefits

of the delay was that during that four-year period

of incarceration that he was in Canada,

it gave us an opportunity to start

getting the case together.

Looking into the motives behind the murders,

the financial motives, the sexual motives,

plus the material goods that they had with them.

Very complex.

A lot of different moving parts that had to be examined.

- One of the greatest lingering mysteries revolved

around the photographs of 21 women

found inside the bunker on the property in Wilseyville.

- We certainly questioned whether or not

any of those women were possibly murdered

by Leonard Lake and Charles Ng.

- For authorities, it did provide an opportunity

to question Leonard Lake's ex-wife, Claralyn Balazs,

about these mysterious women.

- And Claralyn admitted to us that Leonard Lake was

into photography, and that Leonard liked to take

pictures of these young girls.

She said, I just thought he was living

this very active fantasy life.

She played along with it, not really believing

that he was intending to commit

all these crimes and abduct women.

- After we interviewed Claralyn Balazs,

she hired an attorney from Los Angeles.

And that was the end of any more interviews with Claralyn.

- I have cooperated with the police

to the best of my ability.

I wish to express my concern for the people affected

by this investigation.

On the advice of my attorneys,

I will make no further statements at this time.

- Despite the fact that Claralyn's property was

clearly a crime scene, police could not prove

that she had any involvement in the horrors

that occurred there.

So no charges were ever filed,

and she simply walked away.

- At that point in time, we needed

to find out who these ladies were.

We ended up deciding the best way to do this

is to go to the press

and show the photos of all the ladies through the media.

We ended up identifying every one of those ladies,

and I'm glad to say that all of them were safe.

But they all had stories, because they had been

photographed by Leonard Lake.

- He just had me modeling guns,

a lot of machine guns and wartime guns.

And there was modeling without the guns.

- Mm-hmm.

- That's about it.

He just was interested in taking pictures.

- Finally, we had some good news

coming out of Wilseyville.

But back in Canada,

Ng continued to maintain his silence.

- At this point, Ng had not confessed

to participating in any of the atrocities that

had occurred in Wilseyville.

And then someone comes forward with information

that blows the case wide open.

- Charles Ng was in prison in Canada,

serving his sentence up there.

Another prisoner is put in a cell beside him.

That prisoner is Maurice Laberge.

Maurice is a career criminal from Saskatchewan.

He ends up befriending Charles in the cell next to him.

As Charles got more comfortable with him,

Charles is now bragging about his killings

by sending pieces of paper with sketches and drawings

into the other cell.

- I have here some of the sketches that

Charles Ng had drawn for Maurice Laberge.

The majority of Ng's sketches had titles,

and I have one here which is called,

"Calaveras County Remains Claiming Section."

The coroner, Boyd Stevens, is giving back

remains to family members.

Deborah Dubs' father is collecting the Dubs remains.

And a family member is walking out

with a bag that has the name Allen written on it,

assuming this is Kathleen Allen

from the "M-Ladies" tapes.

On the table is a bag of human remains

belonging to Lake's next-door neighbors,

the Bond family--

Lonnie Bond, Brenda O'Connor,

and their infant son, Lonnie Bond Jr.,

who were all murdered.

Here's another sketch which Ng has titled,

"San Quentin, Years Later,"

in which he depicts himself on a bed in a jail cell

in San Quentin Prison.

To his left, scribblings of his catchphrases,

"No gun, no fun," and "No kill, no thrill."

And to his right is almost a trophy wall

where he is depicting all of his victims.

And on that wall is Paul Cosner.

Maurice Laberge had recognized Ng's confessions

as his ticket to an early parole.

Through his attorney, he had struck a deal

with investigators to become an informant.

Over the course of the next year and a half,

Maurice had encouraged Charles Ng to divulge

more information about his crimes.

- Every time Charles would talk to Maurice,

Maurice would make notes.

"I killed Kathleen Allen.

A round in the head of the no-good whore."

Scott Stapley, which was the name that

Leonard Lake used when he was being arrested.

"We picked him up in town,

"and he wanted to get out right away.

"He must have figured it out.

"I put the gun in his mouth.

"I know there were witnesses when we grabbed Bond.

"We thought Lonnie Bond had money stashed.

"So we handcuffed him.

"We killed Bond pretty quickly.

"We got some serious good

"big-time video equipment from the Dubs.

"Lake tied Harvey up in the corner,

"then I grabbed Deborah's leg

"and jammed her while he watched.

"After the kill, we kept what was good

and buried their ID."

- I think that one of the things that impacted me

the most was to read the things that Ng had

divulged to Maurice Laberge about Paul Cosner.

- When Ng was in prison in Canada with Laberge,

he made a number of statements about Paul Cosner.

Ng told him, quote, "Leonard found this guy who

"looked like him, this Paul Cosner,

and he wanted his car and his ID."

"It was a hard operation, because Cosner

wouldn't cooperate with us."

"I shot him in the head."

- This is Ng saying that while he was

sitting in the back of the car,

he shot Paul Cosner in the head.

This is almost as good as a confession

that Paul Cosner, first of all, was shot and killed,

and secondly, that it was Charles Ng

who actually did the killing.

- Authorities in the U.S. now had what they thought

was solid enough evidence to not only prosecute

Charles Ng for the murder of Paul Cosner,

but for many of the other victims.

Their next battle was getting him back to California.

- The snag developed when California

asked to have Ng sent back.

The Canadians said no.

- In terms of the extradition,

Canada had a provision in the law

that they may refuse extradition

if the country the person is to be extradited to

has the death penalty.

So they were initially wanting assurances

from the U.S. authorities

that the death penalty would not be charged.

And the authorities here declined

to give them that assurance.

- Ng's extradition became

a major civil rights issue in Canada.

This was going to be the first time in Canadian history

where someone facing extradition

back to their country would face the death penalty.

- It was beyond belief.

We went through all the levels of government of Canada.

We were begging them

to send Charles Ng back,

to change the law, to make him be held

accountable for his actions.

The wait has been interminable.

I think he deserves the death penalty,

if anybody in the lifetime of crime

deserved the death penalty.

- The first time I ever met Sharon Sellitto

was in Canada, when we were doing

our petitions and everything.

- Today in San Francisco--

- Every time she'd come on TV, my dad goes,

there's our little firecracker!

- Nothing has gone our way.

It was like we were--

we were battling the Canadian government all this time.

And I knew we were on the side of right and good.

- She didn't realize how much she was helping everybody.

She was the only one that was asking the same questions

that we wanted to know.

- By the summer of 1990, Charles Ng had served

his 4 1/2 year sentence in Canada.

And he was transferred to another prison,

while his extradition case moved through

the Canadian court system.

- The case ends up going all the way

to the Canadian Supreme Court.

Those nine justices were going to have to decide

if Canada would be willing to extradite somebody

for the death penalty.

It was a huge deal.

- Good evening.

Topping our news tonight, the ruling that

could bring a mass murder suspect to trial.

A Canadian judge ruled today that Charles Ng can

be extradited to California.

The Canadian Supreme Court,

in a close four to three decision, said today--

said that Ng could be extradited,

regardless of what penalty faced him here in California.

- Family members of the victims said they were

relieved to hear the ruling.

- We were starting to feel that it was never going to happen.

My mother was worried that she wouldn't

even live long enough to see him return to California.

- As soon as the ruling was made,

Charles Ng was taken out of his cell

and loaded up into a van that brought him to the airport.

- When the plane took off from Canada

with Charles Ng on board,

the officers called me when they were going

over the border from Canada to the United States

to tell me, Sharon,

Charles Ng's on his way to justice.

And it was the first time

I felt happy

and smiled and laughed in...

seven years,

and it was the best news ever.

- We touched down in Sacramento.

The Department of Corrections van was there to greet us.

As they brought him out of the airplane in shackles

and turned him over to the Department of Corrections,

there was a lot of smiles, a lot of handshakes,

a lot of hugs going on.

- Sitting behind bars in Folsom Prison

is Charles Ng, the man accused

in the sex torture slayings six years ago.

- I thought we were on the first step to justice.

They were finally going to have a hearing.

And so Mother came from Ohio,

and we drove up to make sure we were there.

When we got there, they had sharpshooters

on the roof of the courthouse.

They had sharpshooters in the woods.

- Charles Ng was public enemy number one.

He received many death threats,

and authorities weren't taking any chances.

- Security was tight outside

the Calaveras County Courthouse this afternoon.

All this for suspected mass murderer Charles Ng.

The court charged Ng with 11 murders,

two counts of conspiracy to commit murder,

three kidnappings, and a burglary.

The prosecutor says he plans

to charge Ng with a 12th murder,

for the death of Paul Cosner.

Cosner's sister was in the courtroom today.

- Ng had been charged officially with 12 murders,

but he wasn't going to go down without a fight.

- Charles gets into all these legal ramblings,

firing attorneys, every delay tactic he can.

- Ng made more complaints in court this afternoon

about getting cold food, about getting carsick

while being driven from Folsom,

and not getting enough exercise while he was in court.

- Charles Ng used every legal maneuver to elude trial,

including filing a motion for a change of venue

outside of Calaveras County.

This went on for years and weighed heavily

on the families of the victims,

especially Sharon Sellitto.

- I just want to know when we're ever going to get around

to the victims to the crime.

I don't care if he's hot.

I don't care if he's cold.

I don't care if he's sick.

I don't care if he's healthy.

I don't care if he's hungry.

I don't care if he's too full.

Let's get on with the crime.

I want to know about the victims.

I don't care about Charlie Ng.

- Charles Ng delays this trial by seven years.

But finally, the trial date is set.

- There was a collective sigh of relief

that this was finally, finally happening,

after so many years of waiting.

There was a lot of security.

There was a lot of media attention.

The courtroom was packed.

- We were finally going to see justice.

We had hopes of learning,

through the trial process, where Paul was.

We thought we'd find out,

and then we could recover his body.

- They found evidence of--

- The prosecutors were confident the jury were

going to convict Charles Ng.

They had the M-Ladies tapes,

they had the notes and sketches that Ng had sent

to prison informant Maurice Laberge,

and they had Leonard Lake's diary.

- The prosecution really needed his diary

to be admitted as evidence,

because it implicated Charles Ng in the murder

and disappearance of Paul Cosner.

But judges often label diaries as hearsay,

especially if the person who wrote it is dead.

The big question in the courtroom,

would Leonard Lake's diary be admissible as evidence?

- The big question inside the courtroom,

would Leonard Lake's diary be admissible?

All the evidence they needed to convict Charles Ng

was right there, right on the page.

But Leonard Lake was dead,

so it was difficult to confirm what was true

or what he might have made up or embellished.

In the end, the judge deemed the diary hearsay,

and it was excluded from the trial.

So this was a serious blow to the prosecution.

- By that time, I knew about Lake's diary,

and where it said that they had murdered Paul together.

It was just horrible.

- Fortunately, the prosecution did have other key evidence

they could lean back on.

The M-Lady tapes.

Let's face it.

That's extremely damning evidence.

You've got Leonard Lake there.

You've got Charlie there.

You've got the victims there.

And they outline everything that they're

going to do to them.

- Now, when that tape is played tomorrow,

the public will be banned from the courtroom.

Except for the family members of the alleged victims,

who for the first time may actually see the terror

their loved ones endured.

- Right off the bat, the jury is shown exactly

what Leonard Lake and Charles Ng are like.

- When she played the tapes,

you could cut the tension with a knife.

It was a very tense moment.

- Victims' family members were crying.

It was an emotional moment for them.

- It was graphic and disgusting

and difficult to watch.

The tape was just that overwhelming.

- That's something I could never watch.

And I asked them, was my sister murdered on tape?

And they told me, no, she was just tortured.

I know my sister suffered.

- The defense says, despite offensive images shown

in court of Charles Ng on videotape

cutting off a woman's clothes, he did not kill anyone.

- You can't like Charles Ng, folks.

It's impossible.

But you have to set that aside and say,

have they proven that he murdered--

actually killed, or conspired to kill?

- So William Kelley's whole theory was

to make Lake the killer,

and to make Charles Ng

just an accomplice to some other deeds,

but definitely not the killing.

Maybe he was guilty of sexual assault

or some other crimes.

But he's on trial for murder.

- It was Bill Kelley's intent for Charles Ng

to never testify,

never get anywhere near the witness box.

He knew that it would damage the case.

- But then, against his attorney's advice,

and at the 11th hour,

Charles Ng decided to take the stand.

- He wasn't going to let anybody else

get in the way of showing that

he was innocent of these murders.

He didn't care what his attorneys had done.

It was going to be the Charles Ng show.

- I think it was a huge tactical error on his part,

in order to try to explain away things

and, again, try to blame Leonard Lake.

And I think it failed miserably.

- The prosecutor produced sketches depicting Charlie

cooking a baby in a wok, and asked him

if he had written the words on the sketch,

"Daddy dies, mommy cries, baby fries."

Charlie said he had, but he dismissed the sketch

as an attempt at black humor.

But it was difficult for a jury to find any humor

in the drawings that depicted killing babies,

because what kind of person would do these things?

- By the end of the trial, it was anyone's guess

what the jury was thinking.

- When the jury finally went out,

we of course were hoping for justice.

Finally, on the 13th day,

we got a call that said, you have two hours

to get back to the courthouse.

The jury's reached a verdict.

- We, the jury, in the above entitled case,

find the defendant, Charles Chitat Ng...

Guilty.

- The word "guilty" echoed through the courtroom

again and again.

After 14 years, Ng was no longer a defendant.

He was a convicted serial killer.

- Guilty verdicts come in for the victims,

including the murders of Harvey Dubs, Deborah Dubs,

their 18-month baby, Sean,

followed by the two men found in the sleeping bags,

Lonnie Bond and Scott Stapley.

Guilty verdicts were read for the two women

from the M-Ladies tape,

Kathy Allen and Brenda O'Connor,

and her infant son.

- When the verdict came in, it was on my sister's birthday.

We were all happy.

We were all crying.

We were all hugging.

We--

but Sharon wasn't.

- Charles Ng had been convicted on every count of murder,

except for one--

the murder of Paul Cosner.

- We, the jury, in the above entitled case,

find the defendant, Charles Chitat Ng,

guilty.

- Charles Ng, guilty of murder not once, but 11 times.

- The mass murderer showed no emotion,

but some relatives of the victims

smiled and nodded with approval.

- For Sharon Sellitto, no such joy.

Just bitter disappointment.

The jury could not agree on the murder

of her brother, Paul Cosner.

- They had said guilty all those times

for everybody else.

And there wasn't a guilty for Paul.

And I was sitting there with my arm around Mother,

and she had her hands in her lap,

and her hands were just filling up with tears.

And they were running over her hands and down her leg

to the floor.

- That wasn't fair to Sharon.

All the work, all the time,

all the people she helped.

And then it was her brother that

came back with not guilty.

And that wasn't right.

So you're all happy and elated, then you're all pissed.

Why? Why not Paul?

- If Leonard Lake's diary had been entered into evidence,

I feel that Charles Ng would have been

charged with a 12th murder.

The entries in there implicated him

as potentially being the killer.

I feel that Sharon Sellitto had

been served a gross injustice.

- Bonnie, you couldn't vote to find him guilty.

Why not?

- I felt there was still a little bit of a doubt.

- But I was absolutely, without a doubt, sure.

- I'm sure he did it.

But they didn't prove it.

- Now comes the penalty phase.

It's scheduled to start the second week of March,

and prosecutors intend to seek the death penalty.

- The judge allowed the family members

to give impact statements, talk about their loved ones

that they lost.

And that, to me, was really heart-wrenching,

to see the pain and anguish.

- I just wanted to come up here and stand before you,

and tell you that my sister was loved,

and is missed very, very much.

- May God forgive me, but I want Charles Ng dead.

- This is part of my victim impact statement

that the judge allowed me to read.

"You have shown nothing but contempt for life.

"You have killed many people.

"Not only my brother, but that you killed so many others

"who have no one to speak on their behalf.

"But now it's over, Charlie.

You must be put to death."

- It took 14 long, grueling years,

but families of the victims finally heard

the words they wanted to hear.

The judge agreed with the jury's recommendation.

Charles Ng will die for his crimes.

- It is the order of this court that

you shall be punished by death.

- When they said the death sentence,

you could hear the screams.

We were elated.

Charles Ng was just so whiny.

And he didn't get no sleep, he was tired.

I stood up, and I bent over,

and he was right in front of me.

And I told him, bet you're wide awake now.

- When I first set out on this journey,

all I wanted to do was tell the story

of the most gruesome serial murder case

Ain California's history.

And in Sharon Sellitto, I met a woman

who, for me, is the definition of the words

resilience and strength.

- Well, obviously, from what I've been through,

I discovered that life isn't fair.

And if this doesn't prove it, nothing has.

- I have all the admiration in the world for Sharon.

I can't think of anything or anybody else

in the world that has ever been that dedicated.

- Hi, Sharon. - Hi.

- God bless her.

I mean, what can you say?

Hard place to come to.

- I know.

But it feels exactly the same.

- Same. Yeah.

- It does feel the same.

- 37 years since--

- Yeah. - Long time.

- Half my life.

- Yeah. - Mm-hmm.

- Grandma picked roses.

And she took them to Mother at the hospital

to celebrate Paul's birth.

These are from Grandma's roses in Ohio.

- Seriously? - Wow.

- I brought it up here to spread some of the petals.

- Wow.

- To make Mother happy, Grandma happy, Paul happy.

And me happy too.

This is from Mother.

And this is from Grandma.

And it's to take some of the murder out of this land.

This is for Paul,

to celebrate Paul Steven Cosner.

For many years, I thought about this every day.

Here, Paulie.

These are finally here.

I don't think about it every day now.

God bless you.

There isn't anything else I can do.

God bless you.

I guess I've learned to live with it.

I try to live past it and around it,

but I don't think I can ever forget it.

- Well, some new developments in a mass murder

that happened in Calaveras County back in 1985.

The remains of some of the victims

were exhumed for DNA testing.

- Right now, as we speak, the Department of Justice

is, through DNA, attempting to identify

other human remains that were found on the property.

- I would very much like to find Paul,

and take him back and bury him next to Mother.

DNA has become much more advanced.

I'm very optimistic.

I sure am hoping that I'm the lucky one.