Original subtitles

Recording the Ben-Gurion interview at Sde Boker, Israel, 24 frames...

In April 1968 David Ben-Gurion agreed to give a filmed interview

to a British film crew that built an elaborate film set near his desert home.

The interview with the leader who declared the establishment of the Jewish State in 1948

and served as its prime minister for 13 years,

took place when he was 82 years old,

five years after he suddenly resigned from the government.

We happened to find the interview in the Spielberg Archive in Jerusalem

which we came to in order to restore a feature film

on the life of David Ben-Gurion produced in the late 60's.

To our surprise, next to it we found a pile of 35 mm film reels

including his unknown interview with Ben-Gurion.

The interview is 6 hours long, and we found out

that it was used for research for the screenplay of the feature film.

Unfortunately, the soundtrack was lost and the image remained silent.

The search for the lost soundtrack

led us to the Ben-Gurion Archive in the Negev.

There, an 86-year-old British Jew

who served as soundman for the interview,

had deposited the original sound reels a few years ago

without knowing where the silent video portion of the interview was.

Thus, in this film, for the first time is revealed

a long, intimate, rare interview with David Ben-Gurion.

The interviewer is a young American Jew,

Dr. Clinton Bailey,

who came to Israel and, following Ben-Gurion's example, settled in the desert.

The interview was conducted just four months after his wife Paula's death.

Ben-Gurion lives alone with his bodyguards

in his desert home.

Mr. Ben-Gurion?

Yes, please.

What do you do with your tin^.e nowadays?

You see, I left the Government, in 1963, for a single puripese.

To write the history...

of the remaking of the Jewish State.

Which I regard began not in May 1948,

but in 1870

How long will that take you?

Another six or eight years.

Do you have faith that you will be able to do it?

It's possible, but I'm not certain.

Tomorrow there may be some accident, and I am finished.

Almost every day I hear there is an accident.

People are being killed.

But, in general, you don't fear death?

Will it help me if I do fear? Why should I fear?

It will not change anything.

How did your Zionism come to you when you were a young man?

First of all, they came to my father.

And, it all began in... Plonsk (Poland)...

I didn't like that life at all.

What, were the 'things you liked to do as a child?

I liked'to read'.

I read Uncle Tom's Cabin when I was'about eight/years old.

I admired that there is such a person like Tom,

and such a great man, although he is a slave,

and I was astonished that there are people who have slaves

and misuse them.

Because there are terrible stories there in that book.

When you got your Zionism at a young age

it came with a lot of dedication. - I was very young.

When Herzl appeared in our little town they said: Messiah's come.

And I believed it.

He was a very beautiful person

with a large, long, black beard.

What did you expect when you came to...

What shall we call it, Palestine or The Land?

Eretz Israel.

Well, it depends on what point of view.

From a Jewish point of view, there were very few Jewish settlements.

Many came, but, almost the same day

or a week later, they left again.

Very few remained.

This is before the First World War.

There was complete anarchy in the country.

One village was fighting with the other.

My ideal was to work on the land.

I saw every day, thousands of Arab workers, are coming,

and going straight to work

A Jew must stand near the synagogue.

The farmer came and looked at his...

Muscles.

And he choose one worker.

And it took me ten days until I got the first day of work.

But, then I got malaria. At night it was terrible.

I couldn't work,

I couldn't eat.

I wrote eve'ry week, two, three letters to my father,

describing the:country.

so he thought I am happy.

But there were many people from my town,

and they were going and coming back

and they told my father how am I living.

When he heard that he sent me a letter:

"Come back!"

So I understood that he learned...

They have told him...

I sent him a letter, "Aba...", Aba means Father...

"You know I will not leave this country."

So it strikes me that in those early years of yours

you were a rebel,

you were not ready to accept the normal life,

the conformist life, you were against it...

What is normal life?

The normal life was abnormal life...

We wanted to create a new life.

Not the life which exists.

I believed that we had a right to this country.

Not taking away from others, but recreating it.

So when did I reach the ideal to create everything from the beginning?

Only fourteen years ago.

I once came back from Eilat (southern border of Israel).

And suddenly I see there are some young people, a few huts,

so I left my car and I went down, I said: "What are you doing here"?

They told me, "We were fighting the War of Independence in this place."

Here I saw that that dream can become a fact.

And I decided, although I was then prime minister

and minister of defense,

I decided to join them, to start building up,

in the desert, where there is no soil, no water, no grass, no rain...

So you mean to tell me, that only fourteen years ago...

Beginning... -That's it! -Your dream..

That's it! That's it!

Create everything from the beginning, because until then it was impossible.

Mr. Chairman, Knesset members, it is my duty to inform you on behalf of the government

that unfortunately Prime Minister David Ben-Gurion

announced yesterday at the government meeting

that he has decided to resign as prime minister and defense minister.

Solitude... -Yes?

Has... played a great role in your life. -Yes.

You've always worked among men, you've been a leader of people,

yet, by your own choice,

you've sometimes desired and have gotten solitude, whether it be personal or political.

Has solitude been important to you? Is this part of a philosophy of life?

It is not correct that you say "solitude.

For instance, when I decided to come here,

to live here, it is not for solitude.

But you don't mind being alone.

No, when I have to do some work I was born to be alone.

Or to read. I can't read with others.

But no, not to be alone... or solitude... no.

But I will tell you what is my view on these things.

I believe that every human being can be good and can be bad.

It depends a great deal where he finds himself,

what people are serving as their example.

This is why, for instance, I am against having big cities.

The big ©itfes are not good for humanity.

It's better to live in a small place where each knows the other man.

They can be more friendly.

We don't ne'ed-a city more than 10 or 15 thousand people.

Why big cities?

All Jews are going to Tel Aviv.

They should... You can have 100 cities. Even more, 500... in the Negev.

The most important thing which I learned,

I learned by living here. Living this life.

I want to live in a place when I know

- that my friends, and myself, we did it. Everything.

It's our creation.

You see, the trees which I see, I know we have planted it.

The trees then speak to me in another language.

I know it can be created by man.

Rain fell in Sde Bokerthis morning, reason enough for celebration

in a settlement located in Israel's most arid region.

The celebration of the rain coincides with another celebration,

the dedication ceremony of the radio-telephone network.

Mr. David Ben-Gurion commented on the general importance of the achievement.

I want to thank you

for bringing us the dubious blessing of the radio-telephone.

I say "dubious" because one of my pleasures has been

not knowing the curse of the telephone

which always interrupts me when I'm reading a book,

but I guess there's no avoiding it.

Since now we've become Northerners; the distance from here to Eilat

is greater than the distance, when I came to Eretz Israel,

from the southernmost point in Eretz Israel to the most northern.

The time has come to put the new device to the test.

Hello. Oh, hello, Mr. President!

I'm sending you greetings from the Negev settlements

over the radio-telephone that we're dedicating now.

In honor of this important event the rain started falling

but our guests are happy and we send our regards.

The greatest teaching, which in my view is the greatest teaching,

is words - which are not connected with deeds

"are absolutely nothing".

In our kibbutz I told them my name is David. Not Ben-Gurion.

So every morning I came to see what David has to do,

and I went to do the work.

This is what our prophets said,

to serve as an example to other people.

One of the greatest prophets in my view is Jeremiah.

I have the feeling that what he was saying is true.

And when he said: "God said to me"...

he heard it in his heart, he didn't talk with God,

nobody can talk with God.

But this was his deep feeling.

And he was a great statesman.

He understood politics more than the kings.

But he was unpopular.

A statesman who is not considering the things which ought to be done,

whether it is popular or not,

then he is a dangerous man. If he looks to be only popular.

But you've had many decisions to make which were unpopular.

At the time you decided to accept German reparations, for example.

That was very unpopular.

Of course it was unpopular.

First of all, I thought that the attitude to all Germans as to Nazis is wrong.

It's unjust. That's all.

I couldn't say that Adenauer is a Nazi, he was not a Nazi.

Violent demonstrations throughout Israel today.

Adenauer raus!

Blood money! Guilt money! screamed the crowd

as stones were thrown at the parliament building.

At the center of the storm are the negotiations

between Israel and Western Germany

on reparations to compensate the survivors of Hitler's concentration camps.

The survivors insist: Genocide has no price.

Adenauer's Germany

is not Hitler's Germany.

The Germany of our time will never again be what it was before WWII.

You Germans knew.

Now what we call reparations

you call wiedergutmachen.

When I hear that German word..

do you know what it means in Hebrew?

Rectifying the injustice!

Not only did they kill six million men, women and children,

they stole our money, tens if not hundreds of billions of dollars.

It was a very emotional problem.

People had lost relatives, they'd lost family.

Yes, I know...

Therefore with people, who were living in Auschwitz,

I don't discuss this question.

I know I can not explain them.

I don't expect them to understand it

so with them I don't discuss it.

I discuss it with only with people who didn't suffer themselves.

But by reason. It is not reasonable,

it is unjust, it is not Jewish.

Because both Jeremiah said, and the same thing said Ezekiel.

"In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten sour grapes,

"and the children's teeth are set on edge..."

"every man who eats the sour grapes, his teeth shall be set on edge".

Those who are criminals, they will suffer, but not their children.

And not the fathers for their children, and this is right.

Although in history it is not so.

America is suffering now from the crimes of their forefathers.

They brought slaves from Africa and they are paying now for it.

Mr. Ben-Gurion..

But this is immoral. History is not moral.

This morning at 9:30

David Ben-Gurion and Chancellor Adenauer met

in the Waldorf-Astoria Hotel where they are both staying.

My meeting with Prime Minister, David Ben-Gurion, affected me a lot,

For a long time I've been an admirer of his strength

and his statesmanlike accomplishments.

I wish the Chancellor every success in his efforts

to guide Germany in its path of democracy

and international cooperation.

Thank you very much.

Adenauer and the Israeli head of government, Ben-Gurion,

signed a secret document concerning West German deliveries of arms to Israel.

So far more than 5,000 Israeli soldiers

and officers have been trained by the Bundeswehr (German army)

on the basis of West German-Israeli secret treaties.

Currently 52 West German scientists and over 400 arms experts

are working in Israeli research institutes

which deal with the military application of nuclear energy.

The nuclear plant in the Negev Desert is available to them for practical experiments.

Bonn has spent over 81 million marks for these purposes so far.

Jews, don't forget and don't forgive the Nazis!

Not only did they kill six million men, women and children,

Do you think that before the Nazi era

we could have saved more Jews?

You can not save people who don't know what is their fate.

Those who accuse the Jews that didn't defend themselves, I think it's wrong.

They were powerless.

Well, a million children were killed, what could the children do?

More than a million mothers were killed, what could they do?

They were undressed, called to stay here,

and then they were killed.

I read whatever was written about that,

I doubt whether they could have prevented it.

The others could have prevented it,

allowing them to come to Israel.

This yes. But they didn't allow them.

Could Churchill have prevented it?

I doubt it. You see, I can't accuse him.

Churchill had one task, to defeat Hitler.

Churchill was a good friend of Zionism.

But he was right in thinking that the main task now is to defeat Hitler.

But they could have saved many Jews.

They were asked to bomb Auschwitz,

Treblinka, they could do it. They didn't do it.

What were yo,mr reactions when you saw the Jews in Europe

after World War II?

What were you doing in Germany at that time?

When the war was over, I decided to go to see the Jews in Germany,

the DP's (displaced persons).

Were you moved when you saw these...

Did you actually see the camps themselves?

Oh, I was in all camps.

We, the last remnant of European Jewry,

we accuse Europe.

We are stateless, homeless.

It was the Jewish people who made Palestine,

that was Palestine who made the Jewish people.

There is an obligation

to encourage the administration of Palestine

asking for freedom of Jewish immigration

which will result in a free and democratic Jewish commonwealth in Palestine.

Many Jews think of Israel as a place of refuge for unfortunate Jews.

Why should the Jews come back to Zion?

Well, our mission..

We had a great Jew.

It's about 3,300 years ago.

He was the greatest Jew we ever had.

His name was Moshe.

He said:

"You are the smallest of the nations".

"and you must be an Am Segula".

"Am Segula" could be translated as "a nation of higher virtues"?

This is one of the meanings.

What would be our virtues, then?

The virtues we should aspire to?

Well, the virtues which we were asked by our prophets,

was to be just, truthful,

helping all those who need help,

and love other men like yourself.

These are the virtues.

Do you think Israel is carrying out that mission?

Not yet.

When you were head of the movement

and were prime minister of this coumtry,

did you also tell the people, or try to,

tell the people to be an Am Segulla?

As soon as the war (1948 War) was over,

as long as the war was going on,

I thought security is our main business.

When the war was over, this was the beginning of January 1949,

I called together our best men which we have here...

Buber... Hugo Bergmann... and others.

And I said to the;m: While until now,

we had to fight, which is against our belief and our faith,

but destiny imposed it on us.

And unless we will keep and increase spiritual superiority,

I doubt whether we will be able to achieve what we ought to achieve.

And therefore we need you.

This is a very big day.

It's Mr. Ben-Gurion's Birthday.

The whole family, his children and grandchildren,

have come together with many lifelong friends.

Amongst them is the president of the State of Israel, Mr. Yitzhak Ben-Zvi

who has come to offer his congratulations to his long time colleague and associate.

A president's suit must be cleaned,

and Mrs. Ben-Gurion takes care of that.

We grew up with and without a father.

When I was a child, my father was the secretary of the Labor Federation

and it didn't pay very much.

When we sat down to eat and I said: "Come eat with us, Mother,"

she'd say: "No, I'll eat with Father when he gets home."

When he came home and said: "Come join me, Paula,"

she'd say: "No, I ate with the children."

She deprived herself because there wasn't enough food.

Father never knew of this.

He was in a different world.

It was hard for our mother.

Moving from the city to a wilderness with no company,

young people... It didn't bother Father,

all he needed was paper and a pencil and a book.

Mr. Ben-Gurion, I like the idea of talking to you

in this kibbutz where you've retired.

We spoke about your resignation, in order to come down here,

suppose was for you the end of politics.

The end of politics...

was very much against it.

You were against the resignation...

The resignation of the politics.

You'd like him to go on in politics?

Yes, because he could not exist without politics...

I can exist without politics.

No, you can't... It's born in you.

Mrs. Ben-Gurion, did you share your husband's Zionist enthusiasms?

Yes... We obviously have some difficulties.

I also have my opinion. But I thought that is the right thing.

It must have been a difficult time to bring up children with all this going on.

How did you make out?

I had no alternative, I had to make it out.

It's a good thing they^came out something, when I took care of them.

Well, this was really her task, because I was traveling...

Of course, but you managed to do that?

Of course, with nci piaster (monetary unit) in the house...

Your life must have undergone a tremendous change when...

you were describing

how looking after the children with no piasters,

and then you find yourself the wife of the prime minister...

I knew he was a leader, what's the difference,

I knew he is a leader...

So, it really didn't make much difference? -No.

And when they addressed me as the prime minister's wife

I told them, I'm not the prime minister's wife,

I'm the wife of Ben-Gurion.

There is a country, Israel, their nation...

Yes.

How is that going to affect,

the character of Jews as we've known them?

I'm a Jew, not only an Israeli, I'm an Israeli Jew, but I'm a Jew.

And what about the Zionist?

Well, Zionists, I've declared

that I'm not a Zionist more than 10 or 12 years ago.

What does that mean when you say you are not a Zionist?

See, when I became a Zionist I thought "I'll be a Zionist"

means to return to Zion, that's it. Not to live in Plonsk...

Then you think they should all come here?

Yes. When there wasn't a state

nobody is coming, so what is the meaning of Zionism?

But they are entitled to call themselves Zionists,

so I'm not a Zionist.

I married a Zionist and he is not a Zionist!?

Then I saw the name "socialism has no meaning...

and I asked myself a second question,

who calls himself a socialist?

Hitler, on one side, National Socialist, and Stalin.

If Stalin is a socialist,

I have nothing to do with that kind of socialism...

Mr. Ben-Gurion, you are not a Zionist,

you are not a Socialist, what are you?

I'm a Jew who wants to live in a world

where there is peace among all nations

and where there is no exploitation

but mutual help among human beings.

Paula Ben-Gurion, died from sudden internal bleeding.

Ben-Gurion's friends arrived in Sde Boker to share the grief of the family.

Many shared the grief of her death.

Your life must have changed considerably since your wife passed away.

Yet you go on working, you're not a crushed man.

A crushed man? No. Why should I be crushed?

Many people are crushed by loss.

By? -By loss.

By loss... Yes, well of course.

I don't feel now what I felt even four months ago,

but I can't help it.

I didn't expect that, I was certain that I will die before her.

But fate decided otherwise.

This cannot be changed.

I read many of the letters that you wrote to Paula

in the early years of your marriage,

they reveal a great love, a great tenderness.

You see... she was a remarkable woman.

She was not a Zionist, she had very little Jewish feeling,

she was an American, she was an anarchist.

At that time, all the progressive youth were anarchists.

And her hero was an anarchist woman, Goldman.

This was the greatest man she knew.

She had no interest in Israel,

she didn't know what for,

America is better, why do we need the land of Israel?

But when we decided to marry each other

told her that you will have to go to Israel,

and I told her what Israel is, then.

And she agreed.

And so she really later came in November 1919

she came to Israel with the child.

Then, suddenly, 50 years ago, I told her: I'm going to the desert.

She thought I am mad

that I am resigning the government and going to live in the desert,

but she did. she followed me.

Not many women would do that.

So she was very much devoted, and this is a great thing.

And now I am alone but I can't help it.

I'm now a half-man but I must do what I can.

In the channel of Zin Creek at twilight

the graduation ceremony took place for the first cohort of the high school

near Sde Boker Academy.

Among the large crowd sitting on the soft sand

the energetic, active initiator stood out.

His weathered face and white quiff

blended into the scenery.

The current sings in the pipes

The pipes are the arteries of the Negev

This is the way of the song

From the valve to the soil

Turn, turn, sprinkler, hey...

When he was asked to speak

he said: "I have nothing to say. Bless you."

I tried to get the man to speak.

I asked if he'd agree to discuss matters besides the Negev

but he refused.

He skipped over the rocks and sand, got into his car

and returned to his green cabin in Sde Boker.

I'd like to ask you a question about yourself.

You can work almost under any circumstances...

I once spoke to Feldenkrais

and he was disparaging willpower.

I said: Ben-Gurion has willpower, and he said: No.

And his definition was this:

Willpower is something you need to do what you don't want to do.

Ben-Gurion doesn't work on willpower,

he likes what he does.

Would you agree with that?

That's true that I like what I do. That's true.

But, you still need willpower to do it...

Perhaps he is fight...

What type of exercise did you do with Feldenkrais?

Oh, it is very complicated.

He knows his work.

Before the Sinai Campaign I again was with lumbago.

He knows th'fe entire- anatomy of man

like no doctor which I met in my life.

And he healed me, and no more lumbago.

When he started going out on walks

people would phone him, wanting to talk to him.

He said: I don't have the time,

but if you want to come walk with me,

we have an hour and we can talk.

He couldn't fall asleep at night.

And he'd read not just one entire book,

he'd read several at the same time.

Why did I make him stand on his head? The whole world was against it.

But I said to Ben-Gurion:

"Look, you have a small body,

"you've never been proud of your body

"which is why you neglected it and as a youth you got into intellectual matters

"without every having had a youthful stage

"like everyone else. You're lacking that now,

"which is why I want you to do something

"which you see as a circus trick.

"What can't you do at all?"

He said: "Stand on my head."

So I said: "Stand on your head

"and you'll see you do it better than many people younger than you."

Once he managed to stand on his head

he was the happiest man in the world.

He competed with Yehudi Menuhin in Tiberias.

Yehudi Menuhin stood on his head.

Ben-Gurion said he could stand on his head longer...

Mr. Ben-Gurion?

Yes, please. -Yes.

I'd like to ask you a question

about your connection to Jewish history.

Jewish history? -And, it's this:

The prophets, in the Bible,

had a vision for the future.

and they connected that vision with the faith in .God,

the presence of God is in the prophets.

Yes.

They needed strength and they turned to God.

Do you also turn to God when you need strength?

Are you sure that they turned to God?

What do you mean by saying turning to God?

Does God live in some place and you' turn to him?

They could pray to God... -God is everywhere.

What do you think-they turned to?

They turned... turning to God is thinking deeply'about something.

They turn to God..?

They take his address and go there?

Thinking deeply about something? -Yes.

Meditating? -Meditating. Of course.

This is turning to God.

Well, the Rambam ^Maimonides) said: "God. doesn't talk".

He's not a humaip tojeing.

Do you think there is a lot of room in Judaism for meditation?

Is meditation a theme in Judais^?’

Well, I'm afraid now you use the word meditation in the Buddhistic sense.

In the Buddhistic sense? -You, I think.

Meditation is not that meaning which you now apply to it.

In Buddhism... There is a context for meditation in Buddhism?

Yes.

Did you find that in Buddhism, when you were interested in Buddhism?

No. I saw there people were doing it... meditating.

Do you find that meditation is helpful?

No... Well, there is meditation and there is thinking.

Thinking I think is helpful.

Yes? -Yes.

Are there other things in Buddhism' that interest you?

Oh, there are manuy. He was a very great man.

See, U Nu said, we had a talk, he was sitting in Hong Kong,

I was in Jerusalem

and the American television man was in New York.

Good evening,

tonight's Small World unites two statesman and scholars

who are also old friends.

Shalom, Mr. Ben-Gurion.

Shalom, Mr. U Nu.

U Nu, in a recent speech you said that part of the world's troubles and ills

came from the repeated use of the word "I."

According to Buddhism

this is the, the very source of all the troubles.

So if we want to get rid of all these troubles,

first of all, we must get rid of this "I."

"I consciousness."

What do you think we should do in order to get rid of this "I consciousness? "

Meditate. Meditation is the only way by which we can get rid of that "I."

That's why, when I visited Israel a few years ago,

I had invited the prime minister to come over to Rangoon,

and have a little bit of meditation.

He had accepted it.

But meditation, my dear U Nu, is not enough.

Meditation is merely a personal thing.

Every one of us must do something for the world, for humanity.

The "I" is not so bad in itself,

the question is whether it's a selfish I

or a human I.

Buddha also believed in the non-self, Anatta.

His teaching was a teaching of love, human love.

He said: Hatred doesn't cease through hatred,

only by love.

This is in Dhammapada, they said.

And this was said 500 years before Christ.

And this also what you find in the Torah.

Very deep, old human morality.

"You shall love your fellow man as yourself."

"You shall love thy fellow man like yourself."

So the German teachers of the Bible, they interpret it, it means only Jews.

But they forgot that in the same chapter, Chapter 19 Leviticus,

it said a little later:

"If a stranger will live among you,

"he should be to you like a citizen and you should love him like yourself

"because you were strangers in Egypt."

So it doesn't mean only Jews.

Mr. Ben-Gurion, do you think Israel is going to have to fight the Arabs again?

And if so, can we win? Not... What I would say,

they maybe, they have to fight again.

Even several times, but I wouldn't say that they must fight again.

For instance, take the prophecy:

"Nation will no longer fight against nation, nor learn war any more."

They shouldn't learn war any more.

They shouldn't spend their money and their time

and their people, their young men,

preparing for war.

But if a country has to defend itself as in the War of Independence?

I think this is the unique case in the history of the world,

certainly in our time,

that a new state, in the same day when it was proclaimed,

when it became a state, it was attacked by all their neighbors.

I don't know of any other case.

Of course this compelled us to give our best youth,

and our best brains,

for security.

Ten years ago today

Mr. Ben-Gurion read the Israeli Declaration of Independence

at the historic assembly.

Now PM Mr. David Ben-Gurion will speak.

The event that took place in this hall ten years ago

is engraved on the pages of both Jewish and world history.

I, your humble servant, was one of the few

who didn't take part in the celebration.

My heart was full of grave anxiety.

And I would not express this personal experience

if I didn't think it would have important consequences.

Now the first lady of Israel theater,

Hanna Robina, approaches the microphony.

She will read the declaration of independence

which was read by Mr. Ben Gurion ten years ago.

"The Land of Israel was the birthplace of the Jewish people.

"Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped.

"Accordingly, we,

"the members of the People's Council

"are here assembled on the day of the termination of the British mandate

"over the Land of Israel. "

But you knew that when you declared a state

the community here was in danger.

There were people, United States for example,

which counseled a delay of the declaration of independence,

yet you went ahead with it.

Were you confident at the time that Israel could make a stand?

Or did you have doubts?

I knew that we can win.

I couldn't say to myself "I'm certain that we will"

because it didn't depend only on me.

It depended, will we be able to bring over the arms.

In other words, if you had the arms you could depend on the people.

Yes on the people, yes. I knew the people, we can depend on them.

They had the right qualities?

Yes. This I knew all the time.

What were these qualities?

These qualities were love for peace

but capability of fighting when necessary.

The first organization that has shown that was HaShomer ('The Guard').

This was under the Turks, before the Mandate.

But the new thing which we'd done was to guard ourselves.

Meaning self-defense.

To defend the Jewish villages when necessary,

but to make an effort to have good relations with the Arabs.

And this was the spirit of the Jewish army,

to have a force which will be able to defend,

but also can assure peace and good relations.

In that respect we didn't succeed.

HaShomer succeeded more in that than we.

11 know the type of people/ that laid the foundations

for the State of Israel since 1870.

I made a study and I knew them personally

since I came to this country nearly 62 years ago.

They were not that type. They didn't come for war

and for conquest.

They had that vision and that pioneering spirit and that devotion.

But when there was a danger to their existence, they must defend themselves.

Do you think there's any danger that if the military

continues to have such a prominent role to play in the affairs of state...

Not our army, no. Not our army.

The army here was not merely a military unit.

It is the great educational institution we have in the country;

They brought together different ethnic groups,

European communities, Asian communities, African communities.

And when I saw that there are many who cannot read and write, in the army.

When he came to this country he was already 15

so you cannot compel him to go to school.

But he must go to the army.

So he came to the army and he cannot read and write.

I gave an order that for 6 months

they should be free from military service and only learn.

And he got it. So he feels he is rising, he feels great.

So this is the best school for uniting the people and giving them trust in their leaders.

In Eilat, Israel's southernmost port and its gateway to the Red Sea,

he reviews a parade of young soldiers.

How do you feel about your work as minister of defense

as you look back on it today?

I think it was not bad.

And when a person has to make big decisions involving countries, lives,

there must always be the fear of making mistakes.

How do you get over the fear?

You can never know if you are not making a mistake.

Because if you know you are making a mistake, you don't make it.

You do something because you think it's right.

And I never assumed that, no, I can't make a mistake.

But from what I could understand, I thought it ought to be done.

But there were several things, which the government didn't accept,

and the majority is ruling.

But most occasions they accepted it.

You know that most of the countries that have been established since WWII

have failed at democracy.

Can Israel's democracy survive?

I hope it will.

And sometimes democracy can make mistakes,

but it's better to make a mistake in democracy, than make right wing.

When you are here, do you miss...

some of the people that you've been associated with for many years

who are now politically alienated from you?

Well, who?

Dayan, Golda Meir... -For?

Do you miss them? People that you were accustomed to see...

I don't miss them, I am sorry that they are doing not the right thing.

They are very nice men, like them.

And I am sorry they are doing certain things which they shouldn't have done.

But all right, perhaps everybody...

I'm afraid I also did certain things which I shouldn't have done.

I know one speech which I have made in the Parliament,

now I wouldn't make it.

You wouldn't make it? -No.

Immediately after the war... the Sinai Campaign was over.

I was so..

In seven days they took the whole Sinai.

I thought it's impossible.

The area of Sinai is at least 5 times as big as the whole of Israel.

So I got a little drunk with that victory

and I said a little too much

which I wouldn't say now.

went too far.

Some of the government thought

that I want to have Sinai as a part of Israel.

And I was asked this question:

Will you annex Sinai if you catch it?

I said: "No. Our intention is to go to Sinai,

"is to ensure freedom of navigation in Eilat".

Let us not forget what happened this last year,

the Six-Day War.

Good evening. This, the third day of the Middle East war,

has shown convincing proof of Israel's military superiority.

" Israeli armored columns continue their sweep to the (southwest

beyond the Gaza Strip and to the south in Sinai.

How did it happen? And, more important, what happens now?

Mr. Ben-Gurion, is this 1956 all over again?

No, this is 1967

And is it better than 56'?

Well, people must make progress.

You think you are making real progress today?

I hope so.

Where would you like to stop?

Are you going to occupy the whole of Jerusalem?

No, we are satisfied with our present boundaries.

Do you wish to increase the land area of Israel?

If they will try against our part of Jerusalem, we will show them.

Do you wish to increase the land size of Israel?

No. We want to have peace on the basis of status quo.

We've captured the Temple Mount, over.

Roger. Well done.

This is the Western Wall, and I'm touching the stones of the Western Wall.

I was in London when the war broke out in '67,

and near to after the war, while I was in the hotel,

a telephone rings saying, Tel Aviv calling, and there was Mr. Ben-Gurion.

And he urged me to some at once,

and I said 1 want to come,

this is my ceuntry and I want to come, but...

I will choose the time for coming.

I jusst can't come now.

He did.

And I saw him in England.

I came out with suggestions as far as Palestine was concerned,

I said: We think that the Arab case of Palestine

sheul'S be presentee! by the Palestinians 'themselves.

But we don't have the means; we don't have the possibility.

Does that mean that I am a beggar, or anything... no.

Of course, I have known Mr. Ben-Gurion for more than forty years.

I used to see him almost daily.

And to like, very much, Mr. Ben-Gurion, because of his frankness.

His frankness was sometimes frightening

when he would express his views

about the destiny and the future of the Arabs.

We disagreed,

but we always wanted to try and find a common ground.

But I'm afraid that he's out of politics,

and you are now in the flush of your war victory

and we are under-the spirit of being defeated

and being downtrodden and all the rest of it.

And so both of us are in abnormal conditions.

I consider you just as much abnormal as we are.

Because you are not considering the future,

you are only considering the present.

And we are not'considering the distant future,

we are considering our present suffering.

gut I do believe that this’country

has the making of a country of pease.

Mr. Ben-Gurion,

since you've been in this country, practically, it's been in a state of war.

Almost half a century...

I'm more than half a century here.

I was reborn here. -You were reborn...

I consider my birth when I came to this country.

In 1956, in the Sinai Campaign, Israel withdrew under some world pressure.

Do you think there is any hope for a permanent peace here?

Or is this a kind of state that's going to go on for another century?

I can give you my personal view,

you know I don't belong to any party.

I don't speak on behalf of anybody here.

If I would have a choice

between peace and all the territories which we conquered last year,

I would prefer peace.

Because I know that within the boundaries

which we have got before the Six-Day War,

we could settle as many Jews as are likely to come

within the next twenty or forty years.

The West Bank of the Jordan, occupied by Israel during the Six-Day War,

and the scene of some of the most bitter guerrilla fighting ever since.

And now the center of a new political storm

with the American proposal that any peace settlement with Jordan

must in,elude the handing back of this territory.

Mr. Rogers first meeting in Israel was with Mr. David Ben-Gurion.

Mr. Ben-Gurion, did you present to Mr. Rogers

your well-known views about the future of the Israeli-occupied territories?

Yes, but I told him it's only my opinion.

Retreat - danger! Retreat - danger!

Mr. Ben-Gurion, Israel is once again faced with an historical challenge,

that is the negotiation of a peace treaty

recognizing secure boundaries.

Do you think that the government's policy

is one that can achieve peace in the Middle East?

You mean the Israeli government? -Yes.

They made only one mistake in my view,

when Rogers made his plan... -The Secretary of State.

They didn't accepted it entirely.

They did not accept it. -No, only under conditions.

Egypt accepted it.

I myself think it's a mistake.

I knew that we are entitled to the whole of Israel.

This was our country, it was never a Palestinian people,

there was never a Palestinian state,

and we never gave up our hope to come back to our country,

and it's our country.

But, if I have to choose the entire country or peace,

I think peace is more important.

My own view is that if you can have peace

we should give up all the territories which we conquered,

with two exceptions: Jerusalem and Golan Heights.

Withdrawal, then?

Everything.

So withdrawal today is one of the most sensitive

and politically controversial words.

Do you think that Mrs. Meir (Prime Minister)

has to hold an election

to ask the people for a mandate on withdrawal?

I don't know,

I only once talked with her,

we met for some reasons.

What is your question? Whether she will...

Whether she should. If you were prime minister

would you hold an election on the issue of withdrawal

and put the question before the people?

If I would be prime minister I would say this is my view,

if you don't accept it,

you are entitled not to accept it, but then I must leave.

I will resign.

Happy birthday to you...

This meeting

is dedicated to the 85th birthday of a unique, special man,

none other than David Ben-Gurion.

Mr. President, Mr. Prime Minister,

honored Knesset members,

current and future,

since I mainly concern myself, since I retired from government,

with the future,

I won't argue about things I have a lot to argue about,

instead I'll speak about the future.

Our historic yearning has been for a new society

built on liberty, equality, tolerance,

mutual aid and love of man,

a society without exploitation, discrimination, slavery or tyranny.

We cannot boast that the nation in Israel is already an exemplary nation.

Our status in the world

will not be determined our supposed material wealth,

nor by our military might,

but by the moral light of our undertakings.

And although there are some shadows,

among them heavy shadows in ouir lives now,

"We have grounds to believe

that we can be.an exemplary nation!

Let us celebrate

Let us celebrate and rejoice

Let US celebrete

"Let us celebrate and rejoice

"Let us sing, let us sing

"Let us sing..."

Now, what kind of music do you listen to?

Do you listen to Classical music most of the time?

Sometimes, not very often. -Not very much.

Heaven help the child who never had a home

Heaven help the man who gave that child a gun

Heaven help the people with their backs against the wall

Heaven help us all

Heaven help us, Lord,

Hear our call

When we call...

When you think of your own contribution

to the fulfillment of the reestablishment of the state,

what are the main areas of your contribution?

If I would be alone, I would be able to do nothing.

Pardon me? -I alone wouldn't be able to do anything.

It's such a matter

which doesn't depend on a single person.

This is the mistake in general... There are many historians, which say:

Oh, this was done by that leader and by that leader...

I don't believe it.

There are things which been done by a single man,

for instance, the theory of relativity.

This was created by Einstein.

Although when I spoke with Einstein, I read in his biography

that Einstein was the only scientist which from pure thinking

came to certain new ideas about science.

I asked him: Is it true?

He said: It's partly true.

I myself didn't make all those experiments.

But I knew the experiments which others made,

and I drew from them certain conclusions.

But without those experiments I wouldn't be able to reach my theory.

But in history, I don't believe that a single person can change things.

Unless it is done by the people or by a part of the people,

it can't be done.

And if we wouldn't have

the pioneers of the first generation,

we wouldn't be able to do that.

But you can't deny that-you had a role?

Of course, I was appointed prime minister,

And you've guided Israel well?

I didn't guide Israel,

I guided myself.

I never guided Israel.

Do you fear for your country?

Oh, I always feared. I always. Not only now.

That the state does not yet exist.

It's a beginning only.

Thank you very much, Mr. Ben-Gurion.

So we're finished?

No, not yet, another ten minutes.

We came at twenty to eight and now it's thirty to ten,

so it's not yet two hours.

 e can wrap this up. -Can we wrap this up?

All right, all right, I am ready.