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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:04,938 --> 00:00:07,308 NARRATOR: This program is about unsolved mysteries. 2 00:00:07,408 --> 00:00:09,443 Whenever possible, the actual family members 3 00:00:09,543 --> 00:00:11,345 and police officials have participated 4 00:00:11,445 --> 00:00:12,880 in recreating the events. 5 00:00:12,980 --> 00:00:15,483 What you are about to see is not a news broadcast. 6 00:00:18,319 --> 00:00:19,787 [theme music] 7 00:00:21,289 --> 00:00:23,357 ROBERT STACK: In 1986, a bank vault in Hollywood, California 8 00:00:23,457 --> 00:00:25,793 was emptied by a cunning group of burglars. 9 00:00:25,893 --> 00:00:27,895 The bandits tunnelled hundreds of feet underground 10 00:00:27,995 --> 00:00:29,897 and escaped with $2 million. 11 00:00:29,997 --> 00:00:33,234 The police call it, the crime of the century. 12 00:00:33,334 --> 00:00:36,404 In 1982, a 46-year-old appliance repair man 13 00:00:36,504 --> 00:00:37,838 was brutally murdered. 14 00:00:37,938 --> 00:00:39,773 Three theories have surfaced. 15 00:00:39,873 --> 00:00:41,875 Was this seemingly ordinary father of four 16 00:00:41,975 --> 00:00:43,944 killed by angry drug runners? 17 00:00:44,044 --> 00:00:46,380 Or by vengeful crime bosses against whom his brother 18 00:00:46,480 --> 00:00:48,216 was called to testify? 19 00:00:48,316 --> 00:00:52,853 Or was it a crime of passion, committed by a jealous husband? 20 00:00:52,953 --> 00:00:56,157 In 1982, seven-year-old Kristle Merzlock drowned 21 00:00:56,257 --> 00:00:57,791 in a swimming pool accident. 22 00:00:57,891 --> 00:00:59,560 Crystal was clinically dead. 23 00:00:59,660 --> 00:01:04,532 But after 15 minutes, doctors brought her back to life. 24 00:01:04,632 --> 00:01:06,267 Crystal is one millions of Americans 25 00:01:06,367 --> 00:01:07,701 who's undergone what psychologists 26 00:01:07,801 --> 00:01:09,870 call a near-death experience. 27 00:01:09,970 --> 00:01:11,472 An intriguing, mystifying phenomenon 28 00:01:11,572 --> 00:01:13,341 in which they describe a peaceful journey 29 00:01:13,441 --> 00:01:15,376 after death, which old friends lead 30 00:01:15,476 --> 00:01:17,311 them towards a white light. 31 00:01:17,411 --> 00:01:20,914 Proof of life after life or simply a mass hallucination? 32 00:02:18,572 --> 00:02:19,373 ROBERT STACK: 8:00 P.m. 33 00:02:19,473 --> 00:02:22,042 Friday, June 6th, 1986. 34 00:02:22,142 --> 00:02:24,245 An alarm sounded at the First Interstate Bank 35 00:02:24,345 --> 00:02:27,648 in Hollywood, California. 36 00:02:27,748 --> 00:02:30,451 A police patrol was dispatched to investigate. 37 00:02:37,225 --> 00:02:39,560 When they arrived, they found no evidence of a break in. 38 00:02:50,504 --> 00:02:51,305 Good morning. 39 00:02:51,405 --> 00:02:53,741 Hi, Gerald. 40 00:02:53,841 --> 00:02:55,509 ROBERT STACK: On Monday morning, bank employees 41 00:02:55,609 --> 00:02:56,410 arrived for work. 42 00:02:59,580 --> 00:03:00,614 It was business as usual. 43 00:03:04,418 --> 00:03:07,821 A few minutes later, when a bank officer opened up the vault, 44 00:03:07,921 --> 00:03:11,692 she made a shocking discovery. 45 00:03:11,792 --> 00:03:14,061 Incredibly, someone had tunneled 30 yards 46 00:03:14,161 --> 00:03:16,530 from under a nearby street, ending up precisely 47 00:03:16,630 --> 00:03:20,167 underneath the vault. Using hand tools, 48 00:03:20,268 --> 00:03:23,070 they patiently sliced through the 18- inch thick, steel, 49 00:03:23,170 --> 00:03:26,274 reinforced concrete floor. 50 00:03:26,374 --> 00:03:29,076 Once inside, they made off with over $2 million 51 00:03:29,176 --> 00:03:39,119 in cash, jewelry and rare coins Detective Dennis Pegankopp 52 00:03:39,219 --> 00:03:42,222 was assigned to the case. 53 00:03:42,323 --> 00:03:43,457 DENNIS PEGANKOPP: My initial feelings 54 00:03:43,557 --> 00:03:47,160 that morning, when we first arrived at the scene, 55 00:03:47,261 --> 00:03:50,230 was one of awe. 56 00:03:50,331 --> 00:03:53,200 I realized the fact that these suspects 57 00:03:53,301 --> 00:03:56,136 were excellent burglars. 58 00:03:56,236 --> 00:03:58,939 They would be extremely difficult to catch. 59 00:03:59,039 --> 00:04:01,208 They'd gone to a lot of work. 60 00:04:01,309 --> 00:04:02,943 And it was awesome. 61 00:04:03,043 --> 00:04:04,745 And you want to get this one out of here too-- 62 00:04:04,845 --> 00:04:06,514 DENNIS PEGANKOPP: We view this burglary, in the city, 63 00:04:06,614 --> 00:04:10,418 as the crime of the century as far as burglaries go. 64 00:04:10,518 --> 00:04:13,421 The method of attack and the fact they got $2 million 65 00:04:13,521 --> 00:04:16,657 plus-- their ingenuity. 66 00:04:16,757 --> 00:04:20,828 I had never seen a burglary like this in 27 years. 67 00:04:20,928 --> 00:04:22,930 Let's work this one about 100 yards up. 68 00:04:23,030 --> 00:04:24,332 ROBERT STACK: Underneath the streets 69 00:04:24,432 --> 00:04:28,736 of Los Angeles, a subterranean highway of storm drains exists. 70 00:04:28,836 --> 00:04:30,938 Detective Pegankopp discovered that the burglars 71 00:04:31,038 --> 00:04:34,274 had used these drains to secretly travel to the bank. 72 00:04:34,375 --> 00:04:37,077 Where they, then, could tunnel undetected to the vaults. 73 00:04:37,177 --> 00:04:39,680 I don't see any dirt yet. 74 00:04:39,780 --> 00:04:44,585 ROBERT STACK: They dug 95 feet from a drain to the bank. 75 00:04:44,685 --> 00:04:47,488 The extraordinary tunnels were approximately 3 and 1/2 feet 76 00:04:47,588 --> 00:04:49,823 wide by 4 and 1/2 feet high. 77 00:04:49,923 --> 00:04:53,226 All dug by hand but finished with electric tools. 78 00:04:53,327 --> 00:04:56,864 A remarkable feat of precision engineering. 79 00:04:56,964 --> 00:04:58,231 DENNIS PEGANKOPP: The experts tell 80 00:04:58,332 --> 00:05:01,769 us that the type of tunnels they dug were very safe runnels. 81 00:05:01,869 --> 00:05:04,237 The size of the tunnels, the shapes of tunnels, 82 00:05:04,338 --> 00:05:06,540 were extremely expertly done. 83 00:05:06,640 --> 00:05:08,108 And the contour of the tunnels were 84 00:05:08,208 --> 00:05:11,178 done as such to add extra strength and protection 85 00:05:11,278 --> 00:05:14,081 to those digging. 86 00:05:14,181 --> 00:05:15,449 ROBERT STACK: Police searched underground 87 00:05:15,549 --> 00:05:17,250 in a three mile radius of the bank, 88 00:05:17,351 --> 00:05:20,588 looking for signs of the robbers. 89 00:05:20,688 --> 00:05:22,356 DENNIS PEGANKOPP: When we concluded our investigation 90 00:05:22,456 --> 00:05:24,224 at First Interstate Bank, basically we 91 00:05:24,324 --> 00:05:26,927 were left with no clues at all. 92 00:05:27,027 --> 00:05:29,029 There was no physical evidence left. 93 00:05:29,129 --> 00:05:31,932 The suspect's left us nothing to work with. 94 00:05:32,032 --> 00:05:34,234 And we were basically handcuffed. 95 00:05:37,337 --> 00:05:39,106 Police had run out of clues. 96 00:05:39,206 --> 00:05:41,875 It seemed as if the perfect crime had been committed. 97 00:05:41,975 --> 00:05:45,413 14 months later, the daring bandit struck again. 98 00:05:45,513 --> 00:05:47,415 They must have known that their extraordinary tactics 99 00:05:47,515 --> 00:05:50,317 were known to the authorities, but that didn't deter them. 100 00:05:50,418 --> 00:05:52,953 What is more surprising, tunneling burglars came 101 00:05:53,053 --> 00:05:55,022 within minutes of succeeding. 102 00:05:58,125 --> 00:06:01,194 ROBERT STACK: On Saturday morning, August 22 1987 103 00:06:01,294 --> 00:06:03,397 the alarm system went off at a Bank of America 104 00:06:03,497 --> 00:06:04,898 in West Los Angeles. 105 00:06:04,998 --> 00:06:06,967 Police were called in to investigate. 106 00:06:09,703 --> 00:06:17,445 The assistant bank manager opened the vault. 107 00:06:17,545 --> 00:06:19,813 They discover the vault had been broken into. 108 00:06:19,913 --> 00:06:22,015 Apparently the burglars had fled while a robbery 109 00:06:22,115 --> 00:06:23,851 was in progress. 110 00:06:23,951 --> 00:06:29,056 On the floor, an 18 inch hole was cut through the concrete. 111 00:06:29,156 --> 00:06:31,659 When I got a phone call from the officer at the bank 112 00:06:31,759 --> 00:06:34,662 and he explained to me a hole in the floor. 113 00:06:34,762 --> 00:06:37,364 All I could think of was, they're back. 114 00:06:37,465 --> 00:06:38,799 They've done it again. 115 00:06:38,899 --> 00:06:42,069 And how much money did they get this time. 116 00:06:42,169 --> 00:06:43,537 ROBERT STACK: Because they were interrupted, 117 00:06:43,637 --> 00:06:47,641 the thieves are only able to steal $90,000. 118 00:06:47,741 --> 00:06:50,644 They left behind their tools and some work clothes. 119 00:06:50,744 --> 00:06:53,413 Chisel. 120 00:06:53,514 --> 00:06:55,048 This is the diamond-tipped drill. 121 00:06:55,148 --> 00:06:57,885 ROBERT STACK: The robbers also left an 18 inch core bit, 122 00:06:57,985 --> 00:07:00,120 a cutting tool used in construction to bore 123 00:07:00,220 --> 00:07:01,689 large holes through cement. 124 00:07:01,789 --> 00:07:03,390 Lay it down and we'll roll it. 125 00:07:03,491 --> 00:07:05,559 DENNIS PEGANKOPP: This was purchased in the San Francisco 126 00:07:05,659 --> 00:07:09,963 Bay Area, by a construction company using a fictitious name 127 00:07:10,063 --> 00:07:13,400 and address in San Diego and they paid cash. 128 00:07:13,501 --> 00:07:15,536 So basically we knew that it was probably 129 00:07:15,636 --> 00:07:19,640 a white male that purchased it, but no other information. 130 00:07:19,740 --> 00:07:21,174 There's a buildup of dirt on this side. 131 00:07:21,274 --> 00:07:22,610 That's it? 132 00:07:22,710 --> 00:07:24,678 ROBERT STACK: Again detectives searched miles of storm 133 00:07:24,778 --> 00:07:27,347 drains for some clue as to the identity of the bandits. 134 00:07:30,017 --> 00:07:31,819 Approximately three miles from the bike, 135 00:07:31,919 --> 00:07:34,988 they found a four wheel vehicle called a quad runner, just 136 00:07:35,088 --> 00:07:38,959 inside a storm drain entrance. 137 00:07:39,059 --> 00:07:40,994 Detective Pegankopp believes the tunnels 138 00:07:41,094 --> 00:07:42,996 were dug by just two men. 139 00:07:43,096 --> 00:07:44,632 Apparently they used their vehicles 140 00:07:44,732 --> 00:07:46,867 to carry their heavy equipment underground. 141 00:07:46,967 --> 00:07:49,236 Their core bit and drill alone required 142 00:07:49,336 --> 00:07:51,839 a drill press that weighed an excess of 100 pounds. 143 00:07:54,374 --> 00:07:55,709 DENNIS PEGANKOPP: We came to the conclusion 144 00:07:55,809 --> 00:07:59,980 that the suspects were very close friends, possibly army 145 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:03,951 buddies, able to work together for long periods 146 00:08:04,051 --> 00:08:06,854 of time in very confined areas. 147 00:08:06,954 --> 00:08:08,889 Taking up three to six weeks, probably, 148 00:08:08,989 --> 00:08:09,990 to dig that one tunnel. 149 00:08:14,895 --> 00:08:16,263 ROBERT STACK: Detective Pegankopp also 150 00:08:16,363 --> 00:08:18,131 believes a third man was involved, 151 00:08:18,231 --> 00:08:19,967 since clearly the burglars must have been warned 152 00:08:20,067 --> 00:08:22,135 by someone outside the bank. 153 00:08:22,235 --> 00:08:23,270 MAN: (ON PHONE) It's time to move. 154 00:08:23,370 --> 00:08:25,338 ROBBER 1: Cops? - I don't know. 155 00:08:25,438 --> 00:08:27,775 I gotta go. . 156 00:08:27,875 --> 00:08:29,442 ROBERT STACK: In their escape, footprints 157 00:08:29,543 --> 00:08:32,012 indicated that the burglars ran through the tunnel, one 158 00:08:32,112 --> 00:08:33,981 barefoot, one in stocking feet. 159 00:08:36,984 --> 00:08:38,786 They abandoned one of their vehicles 160 00:08:38,886 --> 00:08:40,921 and apparently escaped on foot. 161 00:08:41,021 --> 00:08:43,724 For all of their labors, $90,000 must have 162 00:08:43,824 --> 00:08:46,426 been a disappointing reward. 163 00:08:46,526 --> 00:08:48,128 DENNIS PEGANKOPP: Of all the evidence we recovered. 164 00:08:48,228 --> 00:08:53,400 The tools, ladders, clothing, we had developed 165 00:08:53,500 --> 00:08:55,135 no fingerprints whatsoever. 166 00:08:55,235 --> 00:08:56,704 The only fingerprint we developed 167 00:08:56,804 --> 00:09:00,040 was on the quad runner itself. 168 00:09:00,140 --> 00:09:03,310 We got one latent print from that vehicle. 169 00:09:03,410 --> 00:09:08,415 That print has been run through and compared with all arrestees 170 00:09:08,515 --> 00:09:10,684 and it's our opinion that this individual 171 00:09:10,784 --> 00:09:11,719 has never been arrested. 172 00:09:16,356 --> 00:09:17,758 ROBERT STACK: Police again went underground, 173 00:09:17,858 --> 00:09:19,660 looking for more evidence. 174 00:09:19,760 --> 00:09:21,895 I don't know what that is. 175 00:09:21,995 --> 00:09:23,330 POLICE OFFICER 1: That's hollow, isn't it? 176 00:09:23,430 --> 00:09:24,732 POLICE OFFICER 2: That's hollow. 177 00:09:24,832 --> 00:09:26,767 ROBERT STACK: About a mile and a half from the Bank of America, 178 00:09:26,867 --> 00:09:29,970 they found another tunnel, completely finished. 179 00:09:30,070 --> 00:09:33,573 This 102 foot tunnel ended beneath a Beverly Hills bank 180 00:09:33,674 --> 00:09:35,208 and the mounding bolts for the drill 181 00:09:35,308 --> 00:09:39,179 were already in place under the vault. 182 00:09:39,279 --> 00:09:41,148 DENNIS PEGANKOPP: If they'd have been able to accomplish 183 00:09:41,248 --> 00:09:44,852 both burglaries that week, it's told to me, 184 00:09:44,952 --> 00:09:48,055 by the people in the banking industry, 185 00:09:48,155 --> 00:09:51,224 that they probably would have gotten away with between $10 186 00:09:51,324 --> 00:09:54,862 and $20 million. 187 00:09:54,962 --> 00:09:56,596 ROBERT STACK: Police learned that the quad runner was 188 00:09:56,697 --> 00:09:58,531 purchased by a man using the name David 189 00:09:58,632 --> 00:10:00,267 Spaulding, his only known address 190 00:10:00,367 --> 00:10:03,470 a post office box in Hollywood. 191 00:10:03,570 --> 00:10:05,138 One or two people using this name, 192 00:10:05,238 --> 00:10:09,442 apparently purchased five of these distinctive vehicles. 193 00:10:09,542 --> 00:10:13,046 Salespeople created two composites of the same man. 194 00:10:13,146 --> 00:10:16,984 He is a male Caucasian around 35 years of age. 195 00:10:17,084 --> 00:10:18,819 He's about six feet in height and rugged 196 00:10:18,919 --> 00:10:20,788 looking, as if used to outdoor labor. 197 00:10:23,924 --> 00:10:25,458 Next, the story of two people who 198 00:10:25,558 --> 00:10:28,361 have been pronounced clinically dead and brought back to life. 199 00:10:28,461 --> 00:10:31,398 The experience has profoundly changed their lives. 200 00:10:31,498 --> 00:10:33,100 The stories they tell may suggest 201 00:10:33,200 --> 00:10:34,968 what lies ahead after death. 202 00:10:39,072 --> 00:10:41,441 [theme music] 203 00:10:47,514 --> 00:10:51,018 ROBERT STACK: Seven years ago on March 13th, 1982, 204 00:10:51,118 --> 00:10:53,520 a just girl named Kristle Merzlock was 205 00:10:53,620 --> 00:10:55,288 attending a children's birthday party 206 00:10:55,388 --> 00:10:56,690 held at a local swimming pool. 207 00:11:01,361 --> 00:11:03,463 Though she had just recently learned to swim, 208 00:11:03,563 --> 00:11:06,767 Kristle felt comfortable in the water. 209 00:11:06,867 --> 00:11:08,335 KRISTLE MERZLOCK: We went into the pool 210 00:11:08,435 --> 00:11:12,806 and we were just playing down at the shallow end for a while. 211 00:11:12,906 --> 00:11:15,943 And then, I don't know why, but for some reason 212 00:11:16,043 --> 00:11:21,214 I went out to the deep end where a group of boys pushed me in. 213 00:11:21,314 --> 00:11:23,884 But they didn't know it. 214 00:11:23,984 --> 00:11:27,387 And I just started swallowing water, gasping for air, 215 00:11:27,487 --> 00:11:31,759 trying to grab on to the top of the water. 216 00:11:31,859 --> 00:11:33,426 I couldn't get any air. 217 00:11:33,526 --> 00:11:36,764 And so I just fell unconscious. 218 00:11:43,103 --> 00:11:44,838 And then I was just in darkness. 219 00:11:49,109 --> 00:11:51,278 DOCTOR: Can we get some breath sounds here, please? 220 00:11:51,378 --> 00:11:52,212 [interposing voices] 221 00:11:52,312 --> 00:11:53,546 DOCTOR: How are the breath sounds? 222 00:11:53,646 --> 00:11:55,182 MAN: OK, she has breath sounds on the right side. 223 00:11:55,282 --> 00:11:57,350 ROBERT STACK: Paramedics rushed Kristle to a local hospital, 224 00:11:57,450 --> 00:12:00,020 where a team led by Dr. Melvin Morse feverishly 225 00:12:00,120 --> 00:12:02,222 worked to save her life. 226 00:12:02,322 --> 00:12:03,824 DOCTOR: Go ahead and draw up again. 227 00:12:03,924 --> 00:12:05,959 MELVIN MORSE: When she came in, her pupils 228 00:12:06,059 --> 00:12:07,494 were fixed and dilated. 229 00:12:07,594 --> 00:12:10,864 I mean, she probably had no brain activity. 230 00:12:10,964 --> 00:12:13,700 She had none of the normal reflexes 231 00:12:13,801 --> 00:12:16,569 that we associate with surviving. 232 00:12:16,669 --> 00:12:21,741 She had what's called a Glasgow Coma Score of three, 233 00:12:21,842 --> 00:12:26,546 which very few people survive if they have such a profound coma. 234 00:12:26,646 --> 00:12:27,447 She's not coming around. 235 00:12:27,547 --> 00:12:28,715 She's not coming around. 236 00:12:28,816 --> 00:12:31,819 MELVIN MORSE: I did not think that she would survive. 237 00:12:31,919 --> 00:12:33,453 MICHAEL MERZLOCK: Dr. Morse said that she 238 00:12:33,553 --> 00:12:36,356 was so close to death that-- to prepare 239 00:12:36,456 --> 00:12:38,992 yourself for her demise. 240 00:12:39,092 --> 00:12:42,262 That she could expire at any time. 241 00:12:42,362 --> 00:12:46,934 There wasn't much chance given to her for prolonged 242 00:12:47,034 --> 00:12:49,402 life after that event. 243 00:12:49,502 --> 00:12:55,175 DOCTOR: OK, did you check her blood pressure? 244 00:12:55,275 --> 00:12:56,476 ROBERT STACK: At 3:30 p.m. 245 00:12:56,576 --> 00:12:58,812 Kristle Merzlock was clinically dead. 246 00:12:58,912 --> 00:13:02,315 20 minutes later, she was brought back to life. 247 00:13:02,415 --> 00:13:04,351 During the period of time she was being revived, 248 00:13:04,451 --> 00:13:06,519 Kristle shared a common experience with thousands 249 00:13:06,619 --> 00:13:08,255 of other Americans. 250 00:13:08,355 --> 00:13:11,158 A near-death experience or NDE. 251 00:13:11,258 --> 00:13:13,827 Almost, without exception, these people describe a journey 252 00:13:13,927 --> 00:13:15,728 to a land with beautiful light. 253 00:13:15,829 --> 00:13:17,664 A trip accompanied by an overwhelming sense 254 00:13:17,764 --> 00:13:19,266 of well-being. 255 00:13:19,366 --> 00:13:22,535 Is this experience an hallucination or evidence 256 00:13:22,635 --> 00:13:23,703 of a life after death. 257 00:13:27,407 --> 00:13:29,109 ROBERT STACK: As Kristle lay near death, 258 00:13:29,209 --> 00:13:30,944 she found herself moving into darkness. 259 00:13:34,381 --> 00:13:35,782 Then her eyes opened. 260 00:13:35,883 --> 00:13:37,317 And she beheld a wondrous sight. 261 00:13:40,353 --> 00:13:43,957 KRISTLE MERZLOCK: I didn't really know where I was. 262 00:13:44,057 --> 00:13:47,294 It's just, I looked up and I saw this bright light 263 00:13:47,394 --> 00:13:50,263 at the end of the tunnel. 264 00:13:50,363 --> 00:13:53,300 And there were colored bricks on the walls of the tunnel. 265 00:13:56,603 --> 00:13:59,806 The light, kind of, pulled me toward it. 266 00:13:59,907 --> 00:14:02,642 It was just the most loving light I've ever seen. 267 00:14:07,014 --> 00:14:09,749 And then I saw this lady. 268 00:14:09,849 --> 00:14:12,752 She came toward me really soft and really slow 269 00:14:12,852 --> 00:14:15,855 and she took my hand and she said, "I'm Elizabeth 270 00:14:15,956 --> 00:14:18,825 and I will help you." 271 00:14:18,926 --> 00:14:21,628 She just led me into the light and through the light. 272 00:14:21,728 --> 00:14:22,595 And into heaven. 273 00:14:26,533 --> 00:14:30,103 I just felt that this was the place I wanted to be. 274 00:14:36,709 --> 00:14:39,646 ROBERT STACK: Kristle senses she was floating over her body, 275 00:14:39,746 --> 00:14:41,248 observing the medical team as they 276 00:14:41,348 --> 00:14:44,384 attempted to save her life. 277 00:14:44,484 --> 00:14:47,220 KRISTLE MERZLOCK: When I was up there, I saw the doctors. 278 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,990 They were working on me. 279 00:14:50,090 --> 00:14:51,624 They were sticking things on my arm 280 00:14:51,724 --> 00:14:53,593 and up my nose to help me breathe. 281 00:14:53,693 --> 00:14:56,129 And I didn't like it. 282 00:14:56,229 --> 00:14:58,932 That was one of the reasons I wanted to stay up there. 283 00:14:59,032 --> 00:15:00,200 [beeping] 284 00:15:03,570 --> 00:15:04,437 KRISTLE MERZLOCK: But-- 285 00:15:04,537 --> 00:15:05,472 [flat line] 286 00:15:05,572 --> 00:15:06,806 KRISTLE MERZLOCK: When I got thinking 287 00:15:06,906 --> 00:15:10,677 about how I wouldn't be able to really hug my mom again. 288 00:15:10,777 --> 00:15:18,885 Or anybody I really loved and I said, "No, I want to go back. " 289 00:15:18,986 --> 00:15:21,388 And then I was back in my body. 290 00:15:26,226 --> 00:15:27,894 I wasn't dead. 291 00:15:27,995 --> 00:15:28,962 I was still alive. 292 00:15:29,062 --> 00:15:31,965 There was still a part of me, like my soul 293 00:15:32,065 --> 00:15:34,634 my spirit, was still alive. 294 00:15:34,734 --> 00:15:38,005 I wasn't dead at all. 295 00:15:38,105 --> 00:15:39,506 ROBERT STACK: For at least 20 minutes, 296 00:15:39,606 --> 00:15:43,076 Kristle was, for all intents and purposes, dead. 297 00:15:43,176 --> 00:15:45,178 Even after she was revived, the child 298 00:15:45,278 --> 00:15:47,914 was in a coma for three days. 299 00:15:48,015 --> 00:15:50,150 Fortunately, once she returned home, 300 00:15:50,250 --> 00:15:52,052 Kristle completely regained her health. 301 00:15:54,754 --> 00:15:58,058 Kristle had never met Dr. Morse, the man who saved her life, 302 00:15:58,158 --> 00:16:02,295 but when they were introduced he seemed familiar. 303 00:16:02,395 --> 00:16:04,231 MELVIN MORSE: The last time I had seen her, 304 00:16:04,331 --> 00:16:05,999 she was profoundly comatose. 305 00:16:06,099 --> 00:16:10,670 She could not have been in a deeper coma and still be alive. 306 00:16:10,770 --> 00:16:14,007 And then I saw her at follow up two weeks later. 307 00:16:14,107 --> 00:16:16,409 I said, you know, Hi I'm Dr. Morse. 308 00:16:16,509 --> 00:16:19,946 You probably don't remember me, but I sure know you, Kristle. 309 00:16:20,047 --> 00:16:23,516 Because I spent a grueling four hours trying to bring 310 00:16:23,616 --> 00:16:25,618 you back to life. 311 00:16:25,718 --> 00:16:27,287 And then she turned to her mother and said, 312 00:16:27,387 --> 00:16:28,955 well, no I have seen him before. 313 00:16:31,558 --> 00:16:33,360 She stated that she remembered seeing 314 00:16:33,460 --> 00:16:37,030 me from the emergency room. 315 00:16:37,130 --> 00:16:39,499 KATHY MERZLOCK: She said, oh yes I've met you. 316 00:16:39,599 --> 00:16:41,268 I saw you. 317 00:16:41,368 --> 00:16:43,570 You were putting something in my throat, 318 00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:44,937 you were working with my neck. 319 00:16:45,038 --> 00:16:46,139 And she scowled at him. 320 00:16:47,140 --> 00:16:49,976 I saw his face and I knew him. 321 00:16:50,077 --> 00:16:53,313 It was just, like, I'd never seen him before. 322 00:16:53,413 --> 00:16:55,215 And I knew him. 323 00:16:55,315 --> 00:16:58,351 She also described other elements of her resuscitation. 324 00:16:58,451 --> 00:17:01,721 She described us pushing on her chest 325 00:17:01,821 --> 00:17:04,091 and putting various lines in her. 326 00:17:04,191 --> 00:17:07,260 She described that-- she told me, 327 00:17:07,360 --> 00:17:11,531 first you worked on me in the emergency room. 328 00:17:11,631 --> 00:17:14,101 And then you took me to another room. 329 00:17:14,201 --> 00:17:17,104 You know, which was, in fact, true. 330 00:17:17,204 --> 00:17:20,039 And when you see a seven-year-old talk like that 331 00:17:20,140 --> 00:17:22,275 and say things like that, there is no reason 332 00:17:22,375 --> 00:17:23,643 for you not to believe it. 333 00:17:23,743 --> 00:17:27,180 You know, it comes straight from the heart. 334 00:17:27,280 --> 00:17:28,415 ROBERT STACK: Dr. Gabbard has studied 335 00:17:28,515 --> 00:17:30,283 these near-death experiences and believes 336 00:17:30,383 --> 00:17:35,188 they may be physical, not metaphysical, phenomena. 337 00:17:35,288 --> 00:17:36,856 GLEN O. GABBARD: The near-death experience 338 00:17:36,956 --> 00:17:39,592 can be understood as deriving from 339 00:17:39,692 --> 00:17:41,828 a fundamental, psychological need 340 00:17:41,928 --> 00:17:45,232 to deny the reality of death. 341 00:17:45,332 --> 00:17:47,967 Because it's too horrible to face the prospect 342 00:17:48,067 --> 00:17:51,171 that, when the body goes, that it. 343 00:17:51,271 --> 00:17:53,606 It's very tempting, of course, to suppose 344 00:17:53,706 --> 00:17:57,009 that these experiences are explainable by some sort 345 00:17:57,110 --> 00:18:00,147 of physiological events or biochemical events going on 346 00:18:00,247 --> 00:18:01,914 in the brain at the point of death. 347 00:18:02,014 --> 00:18:05,185 Or perhaps, by psychological principles, that this is just 348 00:18:05,285 --> 00:18:06,319 wish fulfillment. 349 00:18:06,419 --> 00:18:09,456 That the mind is unable to accept final death so 350 00:18:09,556 --> 00:18:11,758 makes up this beautiful fantasy. 351 00:18:11,858 --> 00:18:14,661 But, in fact, when you look carefully look at the reports, 352 00:18:14,761 --> 00:18:17,597 I think we've all concluded that something very different 353 00:18:17,697 --> 00:18:18,965 is going on. 354 00:18:19,065 --> 00:18:21,834 One reason for this is that the patients are able to tell us 355 00:18:21,934 --> 00:18:24,171 things about the resuscitation attempt 356 00:18:24,271 --> 00:18:27,207 that they wouldn't have any way of knowing. 357 00:18:27,307 --> 00:18:30,109 My own subjective feeling, after 23 years 358 00:18:30,210 --> 00:18:31,844 of working with these patients, is 359 00:18:31,944 --> 00:18:34,113 that, I have no doubt whatsoever, 360 00:18:34,214 --> 00:18:37,784 that they had a glimpse of the life hereafter. 361 00:18:37,884 --> 00:18:38,685 [music playing] 362 00:18:41,454 --> 00:18:42,722 ROBERT STACK: Kristle has been to a place 363 00:18:42,822 --> 00:18:45,258 where her friends and family have never gone. 364 00:18:45,358 --> 00:18:47,727 She is certain that this experience will stay 365 00:18:47,827 --> 00:18:51,231 with her the rest of her life. 366 00:18:51,331 --> 00:18:52,399 KRISTLE MERZLOCK: I have remembered 367 00:18:52,499 --> 00:18:55,368 this for seven years. 368 00:18:55,468 --> 00:18:56,836 I cannot forget it. 369 00:18:56,936 --> 00:18:58,371 It's always there. 370 00:18:58,471 --> 00:19:00,707 It's always been very real to me. 371 00:19:00,807 --> 00:19:04,076 And it's always very clear to me. 372 00:19:08,481 --> 00:19:11,017 When we return, the story of a man who may 373 00:19:11,117 --> 00:19:13,486 have passed through death to the other side. 374 00:19:13,586 --> 00:19:15,288 Today his life has been transformed. 375 00:19:15,388 --> 00:19:17,156 He believes that life after death 376 00:19:17,257 --> 00:19:20,427 is a very real possibility. 377 00:19:20,527 --> 00:19:22,329 [theme muisic] 378 00:19:23,830 --> 00:19:25,365 Many thousands of people have died 379 00:19:25,465 --> 00:19:27,434 and lived to tell the tale. 380 00:19:27,534 --> 00:19:30,337 An overwhelming number describe the same phenomena, 381 00:19:30,437 --> 00:19:34,040 a tunnel of light and a sense of floating over their body. 382 00:19:34,140 --> 00:19:35,508 One of the strangest stories connected 383 00:19:35,608 --> 00:19:37,410 with a near-death experience was told by a New 384 00:19:37,510 --> 00:19:39,512 York man named Thomas Sawyer. 385 00:19:39,612 --> 00:19:42,148 10 years ago, his life was transformed by an accident 386 00:19:42,249 --> 00:19:44,217 that occurred in his garage. 387 00:19:44,317 --> 00:19:48,455 Today, Tom Sawyer is, literally, a new man. 388 00:19:48,555 --> 00:19:49,956 [music playing] 389 00:19:54,494 --> 00:19:56,162 ROBERT STACK: Tom Sawyer lives in upstate New York 390 00:19:56,263 --> 00:19:58,398 and works as a snowplow operator. 391 00:19:58,498 --> 00:20:01,668 For 33 years he lived a normal, uneventful life. 392 00:20:04,404 --> 00:20:06,273 THOMAS SAWYER: I'd have to describe myself as, pretty 393 00:20:06,373 --> 00:20:07,574 much, an All-American boy. 394 00:20:07,674 --> 00:20:09,609 You know, with a name like Tom Sawyer 395 00:20:09,709 --> 00:20:10,910 you have one of two choices. 396 00:20:11,010 --> 00:20:14,614 You can become a comedian and outgoing 397 00:20:14,714 --> 00:20:17,183 or end up being an introvert. 398 00:20:17,284 --> 00:20:19,151 ROBERT STACK: Tom turned to athletics during high school 399 00:20:19,252 --> 00:20:21,053 and that propelled him to popularity. 400 00:20:21,153 --> 00:20:24,357 However his academic record was lackluster for good reason. 401 00:20:25,392 --> 00:20:26,359 THOMAS SAWYER: From seventh grade 402 00:20:26,459 --> 00:20:28,761 in grammar school, right through age 33, 403 00:20:28,861 --> 00:20:31,130 I never read a book cover to cover. 404 00:20:31,230 --> 00:20:35,635 I just dislike reading immensely and I read nothing. 405 00:20:35,735 --> 00:20:38,070 ROBERT STACK: In his late teens, Tom raced bicycles. 406 00:20:38,170 --> 00:20:41,741 And, in 1968, qualified for the Olympic team. 407 00:20:41,841 --> 00:20:44,210 In 1967, he married Elaine and they 408 00:20:44,311 --> 00:20:47,414 had two sons, Tim and Todd. 409 00:20:47,514 --> 00:20:49,048 Tom was a family man. 410 00:20:49,148 --> 00:20:52,285 A blue collar worker who prided himself on his practicality. 411 00:20:53,753 --> 00:20:56,456 Prior to this experience, I had thought about such things 412 00:20:56,556 --> 00:20:58,658 as religion and so on and I thought that it was 413 00:20:58,758 --> 00:21:01,127 just a bunch of foolishness. 414 00:21:01,227 --> 00:21:04,163 I would describe myself as an agnostic. 415 00:21:04,263 --> 00:21:07,166 What I had figured out was that when you die, you die. 416 00:21:07,266 --> 00:21:08,134 The show was over. 417 00:21:08,234 --> 00:21:10,403 Everything goes black and that's it. 418 00:21:10,503 --> 00:21:12,339 Just bring the whole box and sort some of the tools out. 419 00:21:12,439 --> 00:21:13,606 Hand me the needle nose pliers. 420 00:21:13,706 --> 00:21:14,707 Hold on. 421 00:21:14,807 --> 00:21:15,908 THOMAS SAWYER: When I had this experience, 422 00:21:16,008 --> 00:21:17,544 I was repairing my pickup truck. 423 00:21:17,644 --> 00:21:21,047 I had the front wheels off it and was lying on my back. 424 00:21:21,147 --> 00:21:23,850 And the truck suddenly started to move. 425 00:21:23,950 --> 00:21:24,751 Oh my God! 426 00:21:24,851 --> 00:21:25,652 Dad! 427 00:21:32,325 --> 00:21:34,761 THOMAS SAWYER: When Todd ran in and made the phone call, 428 00:21:34,861 --> 00:21:36,729 I heard it very clearly and vividly. 429 00:21:36,829 --> 00:21:38,197 Hello. 430 00:21:38,297 --> 00:21:39,298 My name is Todd Sawyer-- 431 00:21:39,399 --> 00:21:40,533 THOMAS SAWYER: There are other things 432 00:21:40,633 --> 00:21:43,403 that I was able to hear that were impossible for me 433 00:21:43,503 --> 00:21:46,238 to hear with my ears and others with my normal hearing. 434 00:21:46,339 --> 00:21:49,275 Such as, the conversation of the paramedics 435 00:21:49,376 --> 00:21:51,844 getting into the ambulance 3 and 1/2 miles away. 436 00:21:55,214 --> 00:21:57,083 ROBERT STACK: His wife's screams brought the neighbors 437 00:21:57,183 --> 00:22:00,587 and they worked desperately to free him. 438 00:22:00,687 --> 00:22:01,521 Lift, lift. 439 00:22:01,621 --> 00:22:04,957 One, two, three! 440 00:22:05,057 --> 00:22:06,926 THOMAS SAWYER: As I went unconscious, 441 00:22:07,026 --> 00:22:10,430 I then, experienced a sensation or a feeling 442 00:22:10,530 --> 00:22:12,465 of absolutely waking up. 443 00:22:12,565 --> 00:22:16,135 It wasn't anything at all like waking up from a sleep state. 444 00:22:16,235 --> 00:22:20,072 It was like being unconscious or absolutely asleep and then, 445 00:22:20,172 --> 00:22:23,376 like a click of the fingernail, absolutely awake. 446 00:22:23,476 --> 00:22:25,912 The only problem with this feeling of waking up 447 00:22:26,012 --> 00:22:29,148 was that all I saw was darkness. 448 00:22:29,248 --> 00:22:32,685 That darkness gradually took the shape of a tunnel. 449 00:22:32,785 --> 00:22:37,123 And way off, absolutely, positively to infinity, 450 00:22:37,223 --> 00:22:40,493 appeared this little speck of white light. 451 00:22:40,593 --> 00:22:42,361 This was the most beautiful thing that I had 452 00:22:42,462 --> 00:22:44,030 ever experienced in my life. 453 00:22:44,130 --> 00:22:45,832 It was just extraordinary. 454 00:22:48,968 --> 00:22:50,503 All the pressure of the trunk being 455 00:22:50,603 --> 00:22:53,239 on me and the horrendous pain, that was gone. 456 00:22:53,339 --> 00:22:57,744 And I felt very comfortable. 457 00:22:57,844 --> 00:22:59,612 The next thing that I realized was 458 00:22:59,712 --> 00:23:02,449 that I was motionless at the end of the tunnel. 459 00:23:02,549 --> 00:23:05,084 Confronted by the light of God. 460 00:23:05,184 --> 00:23:07,620 I was confronted by heaven. 461 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,923 That light included absolutely everything. 462 00:23:11,023 --> 00:23:12,892 It was the entire universe. 463 00:23:12,992 --> 00:23:16,295 It was absolute total knowledge. 464 00:23:16,395 --> 00:23:20,399 I had the opportunity to ask any question at all 465 00:23:20,500 --> 00:23:23,670 and the absolute, unequivocal, correct answer 466 00:23:23,770 --> 00:23:24,971 would be emanated to me. 467 00:23:28,307 --> 00:23:31,878 I then experienced a complete, total life review. 468 00:23:31,978 --> 00:23:35,715 It was every day, every event, every minute and second. 469 00:23:35,815 --> 00:23:37,750 In other words, I relived the Olympic trials, 470 00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:40,386 my marriage, all of these things at the same time. 471 00:23:46,959 --> 00:23:48,895 I was then given a choice. 472 00:23:48,995 --> 00:23:54,000 To return to normal life or stay and become part of this light. 473 00:23:54,100 --> 00:23:56,102 I chose to stay and become part of that light. 474 00:23:58,905 --> 00:24:01,641 But I then had a feeling of going exactly 475 00:24:01,741 --> 00:24:03,275 reversal through the tunnel. 476 00:24:03,375 --> 00:24:05,244 And slamming back into my body. 477 00:24:10,517 --> 00:24:12,051 ROBERT STACK: Finally as paramedics arrived, 478 00:24:12,151 --> 00:24:13,352 the truck was lifted off. 479 00:24:13,452 --> 00:24:16,188 And Sawyer was taken to the hospital. 480 00:24:16,288 --> 00:24:17,990 - You'll be all right, Tom. - On three. 481 00:24:18,090 --> 00:24:19,258 One, two, three. 482 00:24:19,358 --> 00:24:20,760 THOMAS SAWYER: Well I'm probably the only one 483 00:24:20,860 --> 00:24:23,062 you'll ever meet that's been kicked out heaven. 484 00:24:23,162 --> 00:24:26,265 Because, since I chose to stay and become part of that light, 485 00:24:26,365 --> 00:24:29,301 and I am back here without any explanation at all. 486 00:24:29,401 --> 00:24:32,238 One of the logical, deductive things that you could assume 487 00:24:32,338 --> 00:24:34,941 was that I got kicked out for some reason or another. 488 00:24:38,177 --> 00:24:40,212 ROBERT STACK: Surprisingly Sawyer left the hospital, 489 00:24:40,312 --> 00:24:41,948 the same day of his accident. 490 00:24:42,048 --> 00:24:43,916 He had no broken bones, though he suffered 491 00:24:44,016 --> 00:24:46,418 from some internal bleeding. 492 00:24:46,519 --> 00:24:49,255 According to medical reports, Tom had been deprived 493 00:24:49,355 --> 00:24:53,392 of oxygen for 15 minutes. 494 00:24:53,492 --> 00:24:56,395 I vaguely recall the ride home. 495 00:24:56,495 --> 00:24:57,997 I was in extreme pain, of course. 496 00:24:58,097 --> 00:25:00,633 And I was just sitting in the back seat, by myself, 497 00:25:00,733 --> 00:25:03,169 moaning and groaning from the pain. 498 00:25:03,269 --> 00:25:06,372 But, apparently, when I was riding home, all of a sudden, 499 00:25:06,472 --> 00:25:07,607 I blurted out and said-- 500 00:25:07,707 --> 00:25:10,109 Oh, it was so beautiful. 501 00:25:10,209 --> 00:25:11,744 THOMAS SAWYER: And Elaine turned around and said, 502 00:25:11,844 --> 00:25:12,779 what was so beautiful? 503 00:25:12,879 --> 00:25:14,013 What are you talking about? 504 00:25:14,113 --> 00:25:15,715 Well I didn't answer her at all. 505 00:25:15,815 --> 00:25:17,449 And I just continued to moan and groan 506 00:25:17,550 --> 00:25:20,687 for the rest of the ride home. 507 00:25:20,787 --> 00:25:23,222 Elaine said to me, don't you know what's happened? 508 00:25:23,322 --> 00:25:24,757 Don't you know what you've had? 509 00:25:24,857 --> 00:25:26,859 That's called a near-death experience. 510 00:25:26,959 --> 00:25:30,129 Whereupon my response was, well, I don't believe in any 511 00:25:30,229 --> 00:25:32,999 of that hocus pocus baloney. 512 00:25:33,099 --> 00:25:36,268 But, shortly after I recuperated from the injuries 513 00:25:36,368 --> 00:25:39,538 from this accident, I started saying things 514 00:25:39,639 --> 00:25:41,173 that I didn't understand. 515 00:25:41,273 --> 00:25:43,743 And my wife Elaine didn't understand. 516 00:25:43,843 --> 00:25:47,079 And one particular day, I was watching television 517 00:25:47,179 --> 00:25:48,981 and I kind of blurted out-- 518 00:25:49,081 --> 00:25:50,282 Max Planck. 519 00:25:50,382 --> 00:25:51,951 THOMAS SAWYER: And I said it just like that. 520 00:25:52,051 --> 00:25:54,020 Who? Who's that? 521 00:25:54,120 --> 00:25:55,588 THOMAS SAWYER: So, of course, I asked my family 522 00:25:55,688 --> 00:25:57,189 if they knew who that was. 523 00:25:57,289 --> 00:26:00,259 And Elaine said, no, I don't know who it is. 524 00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,129 And then she asked me, do you know who it is? 525 00:26:03,229 --> 00:26:05,932 And my answer was, well, no, but you'll be hearing more 526 00:26:06,032 --> 00:26:07,399 about him in the near future. 527 00:26:07,499 --> 00:26:08,300 I don't understand that. 528 00:26:11,938 --> 00:26:15,141 ROBERT STACK: Elaine encouraged him to write down his thoughts. 529 00:26:15,241 --> 00:26:18,144 Tom began to jot down complex equations. 530 00:26:18,244 --> 00:26:19,912 Equations that could only have been understood 531 00:26:20,012 --> 00:26:23,015 by a master of quantum physics. 532 00:26:23,115 --> 00:26:27,286 Tom also drew symbols like the Greek letter, psi. 533 00:26:27,386 --> 00:26:28,888 THOMAS SAWYER: Sometimes I would write something 534 00:26:28,988 --> 00:26:30,389 down and know that it was correct 535 00:26:30,489 --> 00:26:31,958 but have no idea what it was. 536 00:26:32,058 --> 00:26:35,027 In other words, I would write down a mathematical equation. 537 00:26:35,127 --> 00:26:38,497 Well I had geometry and some algebra in high school. 538 00:26:38,597 --> 00:26:40,633 But this had symbols, like triangles, 539 00:26:40,733 --> 00:26:44,771 and things like that in it. 540 00:26:44,871 --> 00:26:46,238 ROBERT STACK: In an attempt to find out 541 00:26:46,338 --> 00:26:48,274 the meaning of these arcane symbols, 542 00:26:48,374 --> 00:26:50,009 Sawyer went to the Rochester library. 543 00:26:54,446 --> 00:26:57,283 He was directed to the physics section and asked for guidance 544 00:26:57,383 --> 00:27:00,619 from a man he met at the stacks. 545 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,289 The man suggested a textbook that contained information 546 00:27:03,389 --> 00:27:05,324 on quantum physics and biographies 547 00:27:05,424 --> 00:27:06,993 of its pioneering founders. 548 00:27:07,093 --> 00:27:11,130 Well, yeah I think, possibly, you might 549 00:27:11,230 --> 00:27:12,665 find this one interesting. 550 00:27:12,765 --> 00:27:13,565 Thank you. 551 00:27:13,666 --> 00:27:14,466 You're welcome. 552 00:27:16,736 --> 00:27:19,638 THOMAS SAWYER: When I opened it, there were two things 553 00:27:19,739 --> 00:27:21,473 that stood out on that page. 554 00:27:21,573 --> 00:27:25,144 There was the symbol, psi, in the middle of the paragraph. 555 00:27:25,244 --> 00:27:27,847 And there was a title, just underneath a picture of a man. 556 00:27:27,947 --> 00:27:28,881 And it said Max Planck. 557 00:27:34,653 --> 00:27:35,922 BRUCE GREYSON: The most common things 558 00:27:36,022 --> 00:27:38,524 we hear from people who have had near death experiences are 559 00:27:38,624 --> 00:27:40,259 that they have a much greater sense 560 00:27:40,359 --> 00:27:43,429 now of being part of something larger than themselves. 561 00:27:43,529 --> 00:27:44,964 They become interested in, what can be called, 562 00:27:45,064 --> 00:27:47,599 the spiritual aspects of their lives. 563 00:27:47,700 --> 00:27:49,702 They are no longer invested in things, 564 00:27:49,802 --> 00:27:54,073 like, individual fame, fortune, material 565 00:27:54,173 --> 00:27:57,243 rewards, competitiveness. 566 00:27:57,343 --> 00:28:00,646 They're much more involved in cooperation, in helping others, 567 00:28:00,747 --> 00:28:02,048 than they were before. 568 00:28:02,148 --> 00:28:03,983 ELAINE SAWYER: He started being a more loving person. 569 00:28:04,083 --> 00:28:08,821 He started caring about myself and a lot of strangers, a lot 570 00:28:08,921 --> 00:28:09,956 of people he helped a lot. 571 00:28:10,056 --> 00:28:12,091 Anybody that needed help, he would help. 572 00:28:12,191 --> 00:28:15,661 These people have undergone profound and dramatic changes 573 00:28:15,762 --> 00:28:16,963 in their personality. 574 00:28:17,063 --> 00:28:17,930 And their lifestyle. 575 00:28:18,030 --> 00:28:19,131 And their values. 576 00:28:19,231 --> 00:28:20,967 All of them talk about the importance 577 00:28:21,067 --> 00:28:24,904 of interpersonal relationships, learning how to love others. 578 00:28:25,004 --> 00:28:28,941 A great sense of the importance of wisdom and understanding. 579 00:28:29,041 --> 00:28:31,778 And, certainly, a renewed appreciation of life. 580 00:28:31,878 --> 00:28:34,080 This is a genuine spiritual experience 581 00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:37,449 which profoundly and dramatically changes the way 582 00:28:37,549 --> 00:28:41,754 they are from then on out. 583 00:28:41,854 --> 00:28:46,959 One of the real dangers of all the attention that near-death 584 00:28:47,059 --> 00:28:49,528 experience is getting in the media is that 585 00:28:49,628 --> 00:28:52,198 it might romanticize death. 586 00:28:52,298 --> 00:28:54,300 It might lead people who are contemplating 587 00:28:54,400 --> 00:29:00,272 suicide to think that death is a wonderful experience. 588 00:29:00,372 --> 00:29:02,875 I suppose the near-death experience does romanticize 589 00:29:02,975 --> 00:29:04,310 death in that regard. 590 00:29:04,410 --> 00:29:06,245 But if you listen to what near-death experiences 591 00:29:06,345 --> 00:29:09,949 are saying, they're saying it also romanticizes life. 592 00:29:10,049 --> 00:29:12,484 It makes life so much more meaningful, more purposeful, 593 00:29:12,584 --> 00:29:14,653 more beautiful than it was before. 594 00:29:14,753 --> 00:29:18,357 That suicide just becomes not an option anymore. 595 00:29:18,457 --> 00:29:21,828 People have asked me, if death is so wonderful and so 596 00:29:21,928 --> 00:29:24,130 sensational and you want to be part of that light, 597 00:29:24,230 --> 00:29:25,832 why don't you kill yourself? 598 00:29:25,932 --> 00:29:28,200 It's very important to me to state to everybody 599 00:29:28,300 --> 00:29:32,671 that suicide is an absolute impossibility for me. 600 00:29:32,771 --> 00:29:38,610 You know, it's not only a social and legal no no. 601 00:29:38,710 --> 00:29:41,147 It's a moral and spiritual no no also. 602 00:29:41,247 --> 00:29:44,216 To even think of or consider suicide. 603 00:29:44,316 --> 00:29:47,519 I think the way these people respond to the experience 604 00:29:47,619 --> 00:29:50,222 and the degree of change that they 605 00:29:50,322 --> 00:29:54,026 experience after it, points to a tremendously powerful force. 606 00:29:54,126 --> 00:29:55,995 The types of changes they experience afterwards, 607 00:29:56,095 --> 00:29:57,897 the unusual abilities they have afterwards, 608 00:29:57,997 --> 00:30:00,766 point to something far greater than we're aware of now. 609 00:30:00,867 --> 00:30:02,601 Our usual explanations of the way the brain, 610 00:30:02,701 --> 00:30:05,004 the way the mind works, in terms of physiology, 611 00:30:05,104 --> 00:30:07,173 just don't explain what's going on. 612 00:30:07,273 --> 00:30:10,742 Something larger at work here than we're aware of yet. 613 00:30:10,843 --> 00:30:12,578 [music playing] 614 00:30:15,948 --> 00:30:17,816 ROBERT STACK: Are these strange journeys only a prelude 615 00:30:17,917 --> 00:30:19,285 to a life after death? 616 00:30:19,385 --> 00:30:21,620 Or are they hallucinations? 617 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,122 Religions around the world have grappled 618 00:30:23,222 --> 00:30:25,858 with metaphysical aspects of these questions. 619 00:30:25,958 --> 00:30:28,995 And scientists have tried to explain it in physical terms. 620 00:30:29,095 --> 00:30:31,397 Clearly death, and what comes after, 621 00:30:31,497 --> 00:30:35,968 is the most profound unsolved mystery of them all. 622 00:30:36,068 --> 00:30:38,437 [theme music] 623 00:30:42,975 --> 00:30:44,176 ROBERT STACK: On a previous broadcast, 624 00:30:44,276 --> 00:30:46,612 we examined the story of Dan Willains, 625 00:30:46,712 --> 00:30:48,247 a mysterious prospector who spent 626 00:30:48,347 --> 00:30:51,283 his life searching for gold in the Canadian wilderness. 627 00:30:51,383 --> 00:30:54,086 We asked our audience to help locate his unknown heirs. 628 00:30:58,224 --> 00:31:00,993 In 1926, Willains was panting at Red Lake 629 00:31:01,093 --> 00:31:04,030 in the province of Ontario, when he found gold. 630 00:31:04,130 --> 00:31:05,797 He and his partner staked their claim 631 00:31:05,898 --> 00:31:08,667 and established one of the most profitable small gold mines 632 00:31:08,767 --> 00:31:11,603 in Canadian history. 633 00:31:11,703 --> 00:31:14,606 In 1936, Dan Willains set out into the wilderness 634 00:31:14,706 --> 00:31:16,943 to do some solitary prospecting. 635 00:31:17,043 --> 00:31:19,078 He was never seen again. 636 00:31:19,178 --> 00:31:22,314 Willains left behind an estate of almost $100,000, 637 00:31:22,414 --> 00:31:26,218 which today may be worth as much as $3.5 million dollars. 638 00:31:26,318 --> 00:31:29,021 It has remained unclaimed for more than 50 years. 639 00:31:31,924 --> 00:31:33,159 Update. 640 00:31:33,259 --> 00:31:35,694 Within days of our broadcast, Davey Willains, a New York 641 00:31:35,794 --> 00:31:37,829 businessman, called our 800 number, 642 00:31:37,930 --> 00:31:40,799 claiming he might be one of the heirs to Dan Willains' fortune. 643 00:31:43,602 --> 00:31:45,437 DAVEY WILLAINS: My grandfather, we have determined, 644 00:31:45,537 --> 00:31:50,009 came from the UK to Ontario in 1895. 645 00:31:50,109 --> 00:31:52,844 At that time, he was 11 years of age. 646 00:31:52,945 --> 00:31:56,148 We believe he traveled with another family member. 647 00:31:56,248 --> 00:31:59,751 And we also have been told that there was a cousin someplace 648 00:31:59,851 --> 00:32:01,787 up in the outback of Ontario. 649 00:32:01,887 --> 00:32:04,256 But there was never any contact with that individual 650 00:32:04,356 --> 00:32:05,591 through the years. 651 00:32:05,691 --> 00:32:09,561 So when this Unsolved Mysteries program aired and this Dan 652 00:32:09,661 --> 00:32:13,165 Willains a bushmen from Ontario, was disclosed, 653 00:32:13,265 --> 00:32:15,667 it certainly was an exciting possible link 654 00:32:15,767 --> 00:32:18,604 for our family-tree searching. 655 00:32:18,704 --> 00:32:20,172 ROBERT STACK: Davey Willains flew to Toronto 656 00:32:20,272 --> 00:32:22,208 to meet Joe Perkins, one of Dan Willains 657 00:32:22,308 --> 00:32:23,976 last surviving friends. 658 00:32:24,076 --> 00:32:26,512 He brought along photographs of his grandfather, Harold 659 00:32:26,612 --> 00:32:28,047 Willains, and his great-grandfather, 660 00:32:28,147 --> 00:32:31,917 John Willains, to see if there was a family resemblance. 661 00:32:32,018 --> 00:32:33,819 JOE PERKINS: It was uncanny. 662 00:32:33,919 --> 00:32:35,787 I couldn't believe it. 663 00:32:35,887 --> 00:32:42,128 The similarity of the face, the nose, the spacing of the eyes, 664 00:32:42,228 --> 00:32:49,468 forehead, and, I think if you took the beard off the old man, 665 00:32:49,568 --> 00:32:52,104 they'd look like twins. 666 00:32:52,204 --> 00:32:53,439 ROBERT STACK: Indeed there does seem 667 00:32:53,539 --> 00:32:55,074 to be a strong resemblance. 668 00:32:55,174 --> 00:32:57,376 Our great grandfather, John, grandfather, 669 00:32:57,476 --> 00:33:01,280 Harold, and prospector, Dan Willains, all blood relatives. 670 00:33:01,380 --> 00:33:05,051 Is Davey an heir to Dan Willains' fortune? 671 00:33:05,151 --> 00:33:07,319 DAVEY WILLAINS: Certainly money is important to everybody. 672 00:33:07,419 --> 00:33:10,556 And if the Ontario government is holding considerable assets 673 00:33:10,656 --> 00:33:13,259 that could rightfully be claimed by a Willains, 674 00:33:13,359 --> 00:33:15,061 then I'd like to see that happen. 675 00:33:15,161 --> 00:33:17,663 I don't know if it'll be me and my cousins or not. 676 00:33:17,763 --> 00:33:21,333 But maybe now we can get some Willains to come forward. 677 00:33:21,433 --> 00:33:24,136 And maybe we do have a strong case to be made. 678 00:33:24,236 --> 00:33:26,872 And certainly we are going to take the next steps 679 00:33:26,972 --> 00:33:29,408 to pursue that possibility 680 00:33:29,508 --> 00:33:31,343 [music playing] 681 00:33:38,550 --> 00:33:39,718 ROBERT STACK: In a moment, the story 682 00:33:39,818 --> 00:33:42,221 of a 46-year-old repairman who was brutally murdered 683 00:33:42,321 --> 00:33:44,523 in a quiet town in rural Ohio. 684 00:33:44,623 --> 00:33:49,728 Police have three bizarre theories, but no suspects. 685 00:33:49,828 --> 00:33:51,230 [theme music] 686 00:33:59,271 --> 00:34:01,673 ROBERT STACK: May the 23rd, 1982. 687 00:34:01,773 --> 00:34:03,542 In the small town of Hammersville, Ohio, 688 00:34:03,642 --> 00:34:06,112 a 15-year-old boy riding his parents lawn 689 00:34:06,212 --> 00:34:09,815 mower back home after a mowing job made a terrible discovery. 690 00:34:13,752 --> 00:34:16,955 It was a man's body, nude and beaten. 691 00:34:17,055 --> 00:34:19,925 That night the man would be identified as 46-year-old 692 00:34:20,025 --> 00:34:22,628 Perman Gilbert, an appliance repairman 693 00:34:22,728 --> 00:34:27,099 who lived just seven miles from the place his body was found. 694 00:34:27,199 --> 00:34:29,735 The most puzzling thing about Perman Gilbert's murder 695 00:34:29,835 --> 00:34:31,137 is that he appeared, to those who know him, 696 00:34:31,237 --> 00:34:34,473 to lead such a normal, non-controversial life. 697 00:34:34,573 --> 00:34:37,008 Yet some believe that just beneath a comforting small town 698 00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:39,578 facade, dark forces swirled. 699 00:34:39,678 --> 00:34:41,347 As the citizens of Clermont County, 700 00:34:41,447 --> 00:34:43,915 Ohio discussed Perman Gilbert's murder, 701 00:34:44,015 --> 00:34:46,452 phrases like organized crime, drug 702 00:34:46,552 --> 00:34:49,221 trafficking, and jealous husband began to surface. 703 00:34:51,957 --> 00:34:54,826 Gilbert was a beloved husband and father of four. 704 00:34:54,926 --> 00:34:57,129 He and his family belong to the Church of Christ 705 00:34:57,229 --> 00:35:00,166 and participated in the civic life of the rural Ohio county 706 00:35:00,266 --> 00:35:03,335 where they had lived their whole lives. 707 00:35:03,435 --> 00:35:06,071 Perman Gilbert remained close to his siblings, especially 708 00:35:06,172 --> 00:35:08,540 his youngest brother who was always in and out of trouble 709 00:35:08,640 --> 00:35:10,576 with the law. 710 00:35:10,676 --> 00:35:12,744 Perman's hobby was flying, but he was employed 711 00:35:12,844 --> 00:35:14,980 as an appliance repairman. 712 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:16,682 Assigned by a nationally known company 713 00:35:16,782 --> 00:35:18,617 as their troubleshooter. 714 00:35:18,717 --> 00:35:20,552 He worked for the large firm during the week, 715 00:35:20,652 --> 00:35:23,455 but on Saturdays Perman made independent service calls, 716 00:35:23,555 --> 00:35:26,458 answering only to himself. 717 00:35:26,558 --> 00:35:28,394 JOANN GILBERT: When he left that Saturday morning, 718 00:35:28,494 --> 00:35:30,696 it was probably 8:30. 719 00:35:30,796 --> 00:35:33,899 And he said he didn't want to go. 720 00:35:33,999 --> 00:35:36,968 And it just, now it bothers me. 721 00:35:37,068 --> 00:35:39,037 That's what I remember about him leaving that morning. 722 00:35:41,873 --> 00:35:43,041 ROBERT STACK: Perman Gilbert's service 723 00:35:43,141 --> 00:35:44,543 appointments that Saturday morning 724 00:35:44,643 --> 00:35:47,078 took him to Mount Orab, Ohio. 725 00:35:47,179 --> 00:35:51,683 And also further south to Georgetown and Aberdeen, Ohio. 726 00:35:51,783 --> 00:35:53,118 Hi, Mr Gilbert, how are you? 727 00:35:53,219 --> 00:35:54,653 Fine, just call me Perm. 728 00:35:54,753 --> 00:35:56,788 Perm, I keep smelling gas in my kitchen. 729 00:35:56,888 --> 00:35:57,956 I think it's my pilot light. 730 00:35:58,056 --> 00:35:59,191 ROBERT STACK: Gilbert's service calls 731 00:35:59,291 --> 00:36:02,861 had put him at the southernmost tip of Ohio. 732 00:36:02,961 --> 00:36:05,264 When the calls were completed, he crossed the Simon Kenton 733 00:36:05,364 --> 00:36:07,633 bridge into Maysville, Kentucky and stopped in 734 00:36:07,733 --> 00:36:11,437 at a large market and variety store. 735 00:36:11,537 --> 00:36:13,939 Ann Breeze, who works at the market checkout counter, 736 00:36:14,039 --> 00:36:16,475 remembers his visit that Saturday. 737 00:36:16,575 --> 00:36:18,277 - Hi, Ann, how are you today? - Just fine, how are you? 738 00:36:18,377 --> 00:36:19,411 He was tall. 739 00:36:19,511 --> 00:36:23,215 A nice looking man, he was always very neat. 740 00:36:23,315 --> 00:36:25,484 Greeted you, you know, very friendly 741 00:36:25,584 --> 00:36:26,552 every time you saw him. 742 00:36:26,652 --> 00:36:29,087 I never saw the man down or act like he 743 00:36:29,187 --> 00:36:30,889 had a care in the world. 744 00:36:30,989 --> 00:36:33,225 You going to have lunch with me today? 745 00:36:33,325 --> 00:36:35,160 No, I can't have lunch with you. 746 00:36:35,261 --> 00:36:37,296 Well I guess I have to eat that bologna 747 00:36:37,396 --> 00:36:38,397 and cheese by myself. 748 00:36:38,497 --> 00:36:39,865 ANN BREEZE: He would usually say that to me. 749 00:36:39,965 --> 00:36:41,767 And he knew that I wouldn't go to lunch with him. 750 00:36:41,867 --> 00:36:45,537 You know, just usual chit chatter. 751 00:36:45,637 --> 00:36:47,873 ROBERT STACK: When Perman left the market checkout counter, 752 00:36:47,973 --> 00:36:52,278 he walked into the flower shop next door. 753 00:36:52,378 --> 00:36:53,445 DONNA PHIPPS: He pushed the buzzer. 754 00:36:53,545 --> 00:36:55,146 And I came from the back. 755 00:36:55,247 --> 00:36:57,949 And I asked if I could help him. 756 00:36:58,049 --> 00:37:01,387 He said he'd like to know if another employee was here. 757 00:37:01,487 --> 00:37:04,189 And I said no she doesn't come until 4. 758 00:37:04,290 --> 00:37:05,757 And if I could help him, anyway. 759 00:37:05,857 --> 00:37:08,327 And he said, no, he wanted to order some flowers. 760 00:37:08,427 --> 00:37:11,162 And they knew what he wanted and everything. 761 00:37:11,263 --> 00:37:13,699 And he said he would come back later. 762 00:37:13,799 --> 00:37:14,900 She knows what I wanted. 763 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:15,801 OK. 764 00:37:15,901 --> 00:37:17,135 Thank you. 765 00:37:17,235 --> 00:37:18,604 There was nothing unusual about him. 766 00:37:18,704 --> 00:37:20,506 He was just a normal customer. 767 00:37:20,606 --> 00:37:25,277 He wasn't nervous or anything when I met him. 768 00:37:25,377 --> 00:37:27,746 ROBERT STACK: No one can account for Perman Gilbert's movements 769 00:37:27,846 --> 00:37:29,815 after he left the flower shop. 770 00:37:29,915 --> 00:37:32,284 He had told his wife he'd be back home around 3:00 PM, 771 00:37:32,384 --> 00:37:36,722 but he did not arrive. 772 00:37:36,822 --> 00:37:39,458 Then it got to be dark and he wasn't here. 773 00:37:39,558 --> 00:37:41,993 Then it got to be midnight. 774 00:37:42,093 --> 00:37:44,430 And I was scared. 775 00:37:44,530 --> 00:37:47,466 And I was afraid to go out, even. 776 00:37:47,566 --> 00:37:50,336 I had a small child and I was afraid to put her in the car 777 00:37:50,436 --> 00:37:51,970 and go out looking. 778 00:37:52,070 --> 00:37:55,374 And then, I think, about 3:00 in the morning, 779 00:37:55,474 --> 00:37:56,708 I called one of our friends. 780 00:37:56,808 --> 00:37:59,945 And, you know, have you seen Perman? 781 00:38:00,045 --> 00:38:00,879 Do you know where he's at? 782 00:38:00,979 --> 00:38:02,013 Anything like that. 783 00:38:02,113 --> 00:38:02,914 And they didn't. 784 00:38:05,551 --> 00:38:07,953 ROBERT STACK: Joann Gilbert called the police. 785 00:38:08,053 --> 00:38:09,655 They were unable to turn up any leads 786 00:38:09,755 --> 00:38:11,323 until late the next afternoon when 787 00:38:11,423 --> 00:38:13,692 her husband's body was found. 788 00:38:13,792 --> 00:38:16,495 He was completely nude. 789 00:38:16,595 --> 00:38:17,796 He didn't have any clothes on. 790 00:38:17,896 --> 00:38:19,698 That bothered me. 791 00:38:19,798 --> 00:38:21,700 I would like to know why that was done. 792 00:38:24,336 --> 00:38:26,672 I've heard it's to humiliate the family. 793 00:38:26,772 --> 00:38:29,541 I don't know that's why it was done. 794 00:38:29,641 --> 00:38:36,448 Maybe it was done to make it longer to identify him. 795 00:38:36,548 --> 00:38:38,484 ROBERT STACK: Because no clothes fibers were found in the two 796 00:38:38,584 --> 00:38:41,119 bullet wounds, Clermont County police 797 00:38:41,219 --> 00:38:43,422 believe that Perman had been naked above the waist 798 00:38:43,522 --> 00:38:44,390 at the time he was shot. 799 00:38:49,728 --> 00:38:51,797 Perman's billfold, carrying the symbol of the Masons, 800 00:38:51,897 --> 00:38:53,799 was missing, along with his clothes. 801 00:38:53,899 --> 00:38:56,368 So was the Masonic belt buckle he always wore. 802 00:38:59,771 --> 00:39:02,207 Although Perman's clothes were never found, 803 00:39:02,307 --> 00:39:04,075 his van was located the next day. 804 00:39:04,175 --> 00:39:06,177 22 miles away from the spot where 805 00:39:06,277 --> 00:39:08,814 his body had been discovered. 806 00:39:08,914 --> 00:39:10,382 JOHN VAN CAMP: Perman Gilbert's watch was still 807 00:39:10,482 --> 00:39:12,851 hanging on the gearshift lever. 808 00:39:12,951 --> 00:39:16,655 His toolbox was in there. 809 00:39:16,755 --> 00:39:20,426 Parts and supplies was in place in the van. 810 00:39:20,526 --> 00:39:25,063 We did do an inspection of the van 811 00:39:25,163 --> 00:39:28,033 and recover fingerprints and hair samples. 812 00:39:28,133 --> 00:39:30,602 And, at this time, we have not been 813 00:39:30,702 --> 00:39:36,675 able to match the fingerprints and hair samples to anyone. 814 00:39:36,775 --> 00:39:38,076 ROBERT STACK: In the investigation 815 00:39:38,176 --> 00:39:42,548 that followed Perman Gilbert's death, three theories evolved. 816 00:39:42,648 --> 00:39:44,716 I think that whatever happened to him 817 00:39:44,816 --> 00:39:48,219 had something to do with drugs. 818 00:39:48,319 --> 00:39:49,988 ROBERT STACK: Perman was a licensed pilot. 819 00:39:50,088 --> 00:39:52,858 He owned a small plane which he flew out of a makeshift landing 820 00:39:52,958 --> 00:39:53,759 strip on his farm. 821 00:39:59,264 --> 00:40:05,937 Perman told me that he had been approached to fly drugs. 822 00:40:06,037 --> 00:40:07,072 How's it going? 823 00:40:07,172 --> 00:40:09,475 OK, What's happening? 824 00:40:09,575 --> 00:40:10,876 Well we had a little favor we'd like you 825 00:40:10,976 --> 00:40:11,777 to do for us if you don't mind. - No. 826 00:40:11,877 --> 00:40:13,411 It's just a little trip. 827 00:40:13,512 --> 00:40:16,081 JOANN GILBERT: And all he had to do was to take the airplane 828 00:40:16,181 --> 00:40:19,417 and fly it to a certain airport. 829 00:40:19,518 --> 00:40:22,387 Go in and have a cup of coffee, come back out, 830 00:40:22,488 --> 00:40:24,790 and there'd be money laying on the seat or under the seat. 831 00:40:24,890 --> 00:40:26,024 I don't want nothing to do with it. 832 00:40:26,124 --> 00:40:27,893 Just forget it. - It's good money. 833 00:40:27,993 --> 00:40:29,127 No, that's all right. 834 00:40:29,227 --> 00:40:30,328 If these guys don't quit bugging me, 835 00:40:30,428 --> 00:40:32,263 I'm going to call the authorities. 836 00:40:32,363 --> 00:40:33,765 And it would have been easy money, 837 00:40:33,865 --> 00:40:37,636 but that's against the law and it was against everything 838 00:40:37,736 --> 00:40:39,671 that we believed in. 839 00:40:39,771 --> 00:40:42,340 I believe that he knew too much about what 840 00:40:42,440 --> 00:40:44,543 was going on as far as who was involved 841 00:40:44,643 --> 00:40:46,512 with drugs and who wasn't. 842 00:40:46,612 --> 00:40:48,880 Because he would not go along with their plan, 843 00:40:48,980 --> 00:40:53,218 that he was beaten and killed because of it. 844 00:40:53,318 --> 00:40:54,553 ROBERT STACK: The second theory revolves 845 00:40:54,653 --> 00:40:57,756 around Perman Gilbert's youngest brother, Vernon. 846 00:40:57,856 --> 00:40:59,925 Vernon was 12 years younger than Perman 847 00:41:00,025 --> 00:41:01,493 and they were devoted to one another. 848 00:41:01,593 --> 00:41:02,961 You sure you can't stay the night then? 849 00:41:03,061 --> 00:41:04,395 ROBERT STACK: No, I want to be getting back. 850 00:41:04,496 --> 00:41:06,031 ROBERT STACK: In February of 1982, 851 00:41:06,131 --> 00:41:08,734 when Vernon was called to testify in an organized crime 852 00:41:08,834 --> 00:41:10,702 case, Perman stood by him. 853 00:41:10,802 --> 00:41:12,103 --from there, it'll take a little while. 854 00:41:12,203 --> 00:41:13,404 OK, it should be about an hour or so. 855 00:41:13,505 --> 00:41:14,239 OK? - About an hour? 856 00:41:14,339 --> 00:41:15,741 OK. I'll be around. 857 00:41:15,841 --> 00:41:17,242 See you in an hour. Good luck to you. 858 00:41:17,342 --> 00:41:18,777 Thanks 859 00:41:18,877 --> 00:41:19,845 ROBERT STACK: The actual hearings 860 00:41:19,945 --> 00:41:21,947 were closed to the public. 861 00:41:22,047 --> 00:41:23,882 And Perman had to kill time while his brother 862 00:41:23,982 --> 00:41:25,951 was testifying. 863 00:41:26,051 --> 00:41:28,319 He began to suspect that he was being followed. 864 00:41:31,757 --> 00:41:34,860 JOHN VAN CAMP: Perman Gilbert had told acquaintances 865 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:39,865 that he felt at the day at the federal court building, 866 00:41:39,965 --> 00:41:43,301 that a man was following him around. 867 00:41:43,401 --> 00:41:45,937 I don't know of any person that might have 868 00:41:46,037 --> 00:41:47,639 been following Perman Gilbert and it 869 00:41:47,739 --> 00:41:51,009 was not any of our personnel. 870 00:41:51,109 --> 00:41:52,578 ROBERT STACK: Perhaps Perman Gilbert had become 871 00:41:52,678 --> 00:41:54,946 a target of organized crime. 872 00:41:55,046 --> 00:41:58,016 JOANN GILBERT: Maybe my husband knew too much. 873 00:41:58,116 --> 00:42:01,620 Maybe Perman was killed who to lure his brother back 874 00:42:01,720 --> 00:42:02,688 to the funeral. 875 00:42:02,788 --> 00:42:06,357 And because they were after him, really. 876 00:42:06,457 --> 00:42:08,126 But then his brother didn't come to the funeral. 877 00:42:10,829 --> 00:42:11,830 ROBERT STACK: The third theory is 878 00:42:11,930 --> 00:42:13,131 that Perman Gilbert may have been 879 00:42:13,231 --> 00:42:14,499 involved in a crime of passion. 880 00:42:14,600 --> 00:42:15,400 Oh. 881 00:42:15,500 --> 00:42:16,367 Hi, Perm. 882 00:42:16,467 --> 00:42:17,869 Thanks for coming over right away. 883 00:42:17,969 --> 00:42:18,436 Hi. It's no problem. 884 00:42:18,536 --> 00:42:19,337 How you been? 885 00:42:19,437 --> 00:42:20,538 What's your problem? 886 00:42:20,639 --> 00:42:22,273 The washing machine is making this grinding noise. 887 00:42:22,373 --> 00:42:25,977 The very nature of Perman Gilbert's home appliance repair 888 00:42:26,077 --> 00:42:30,181 business placed him into many, many households, 889 00:42:30,281 --> 00:42:33,685 alone with a family member. 890 00:42:33,785 --> 00:42:35,320 Yes, I thought he was very attractive. 891 00:42:35,420 --> 00:42:39,725 And I know other women were very attracted to him too. 892 00:42:39,825 --> 00:42:42,994 He was tall, about six, two. 893 00:42:43,094 --> 00:42:48,499 Well-built. Had nice hair, pretty eyes. 894 00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,035 And a nice looking man. 895 00:42:53,171 --> 00:42:55,340 I really didn't know about his death 896 00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:58,910 until someone from in his home area 897 00:42:59,010 --> 00:43:02,948 came through and said there was one or two theories. 898 00:43:03,048 --> 00:43:06,752 But one was that they thought a jealous boyfriend 899 00:43:06,852 --> 00:43:09,487 or husband had killed him. 900 00:43:09,587 --> 00:43:14,192 I feel that the crime of passion theory doesn't hold up. 901 00:43:14,292 --> 00:43:17,562 Because that's supposed to be something that's very swift. 902 00:43:17,663 --> 00:43:20,966 And they beat around on him like someone 903 00:43:21,066 --> 00:43:24,169 was trying to get information out of him or something. 904 00:43:24,269 --> 00:43:26,037 What we need now is for someone 905 00:43:26,137 --> 00:43:30,876 to come forward and help us trace Perman 906 00:43:30,976 --> 00:43:33,144 Gilbert from that flower shop. 907 00:43:33,244 --> 00:43:38,449 Anyone that has seen him around the flower shop 908 00:43:38,549 --> 00:43:42,888 or in the parking lot with his cream and brown van, 909 00:43:42,988 --> 00:43:44,690 at that time or later in the day. 910 00:43:44,790 --> 00:43:46,557 We'd like to hear from. 911 00:43:46,658 --> 00:43:47,893 And I feel like there are people 912 00:43:47,993 --> 00:43:49,394 out there, in the community, that know 913 00:43:49,494 --> 00:43:51,096 what happened to my father. 914 00:43:51,196 --> 00:43:53,932 And for fear of their own lives, or other people, 915 00:43:54,032 --> 00:43:55,300 they're afraid to speak up. 916 00:43:55,400 --> 00:43:57,869 I wish that they would come forward and fill in those bits 917 00:43:57,969 --> 00:43:58,904 and pieces for us. 918 00:44:02,908 --> 00:44:04,275 [theme music] 919 00:44:12,250 --> 00:44:14,485 ROBERT STACK: Next week on Unsolved Mysteries, 920 00:44:14,585 --> 00:44:16,187 an examination of the legend of Billy 921 00:44:16,287 --> 00:44:19,524 the Kid that suggests history may have to be rewritten. 922 00:44:19,624 --> 00:44:21,459 Most historians and Hollywood screen versions 923 00:44:21,559 --> 00:44:22,761 claim that Billy was dramatically 924 00:44:22,861 --> 00:44:26,497 gunned down by his friend Sheriff Pat Garrett in 1881. 925 00:44:26,597 --> 00:44:30,101 But the people of tiny Hico, Texas say that's all bunk. 926 00:44:30,201 --> 00:44:31,737 That one of their own citizens, a man 927 00:44:31,837 --> 00:44:34,906 named Brushy Bill Roberts, was the real Billy the Kid. 928 00:44:35,006 --> 00:44:38,209 And that he died in 1950, 69 years 929 00:44:38,309 --> 00:44:40,245 after the famous gunfight. 930 00:44:40,345 --> 00:44:45,150 We'll examine the evidence next week on Unsolved Mysteries. 931 00:44:45,250 --> 00:44:48,519 [theme music] 73954

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