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[ Fred Leuchter,Jr.]
I became involved...
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00:03:05,470 --> 00:03:07,904
in the manufacture
of execution equipment...
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00:03:07,972 --> 00:03:11,271
because I was concerned
with the deplorable condition...
4
00:03:11,342 --> 00:03:16,143
of the hardware that's in
most of the states'prisons,
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00:03:16,214 --> 00:03:19,149
which generally results
in torture...
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00:03:19,217 --> 00:03:21,151
prior to death.
7
00:03:24,856 --> 00:03:28,656
A number of years ago
I was asked by a state...
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00:03:28,726 --> 00:03:31,058
to look at
their electric chair.
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00:03:32,430 --> 00:03:35,922
I was surprised
at the condition
of the equipment...
10
00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:40,027
and I indicated to them
what changes should be made...
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00:03:40,104 --> 00:03:44,700
to bring the equipment
up to the point of doing
a humane execution.
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00:03:51,549 --> 00:03:54,712
Beyond making
recommendations for changes,
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00:03:54,785 --> 00:03:58,050
I sat down, on my own time
and at my own expense,
14
00:03:58,122 --> 00:04:01,785
and made a new design
and new equipment...
15
00:04:01,859 --> 00:04:03,793
available to the states...
16
00:04:03,861 --> 00:04:06,193
utilizing electrocution...
17
00:04:06,264 --> 00:04:10,064
at a price far lower than
they would have to deal with...
18
00:04:10,134 --> 00:04:15,162
if they hired
an engineering firm
to redesign a specific item.
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00:04:15,239 --> 00:04:17,833
The equipment
is all standardized,
20
00:04:17,909 --> 00:04:22,437
it all meets the current
electrical requirements
for electrocution...
21
00:04:22,513 --> 00:04:24,447
and the pricing is such...
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00:04:24,515 --> 00:04:27,951
that it's similar
to what you'd pay for
an off-the-shelf item,
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00:04:28,019 --> 00:04:29,953
even though it's made up.
24
00:04:30,021 --> 00:04:34,287
They essentially pay
for the parts, the labor
and the installation,
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00:04:34,358 --> 00:04:37,987
and a 20-percent markup,
which is more than fair.
26
00:04:43,701 --> 00:04:45,794
We are testing
the electrocution system...
27
00:04:45,870 --> 00:04:48,896
here at
the Tennessee State Prison.
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00:04:48,973 --> 00:04:52,340
This is connected to
the execution system...
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00:04:52,410 --> 00:04:54,435
in place of
the electric chair,
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00:04:54,512 --> 00:04:57,948
and the system thinks
that this is a human body.
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00:04:58,015 --> 00:05:01,348
It consists of a series
of heavy-duty resistors...
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00:05:01,419 --> 00:05:03,410
cooled by four fans.
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00:05:03,487 --> 00:05:06,820
I will now switch on
the fans...
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00:05:06,891 --> 00:05:09,826
[ Click, Fans Humming ]
and begin
the cooling process.
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00:05:17,068 --> 00:05:20,504
We then proceed
to the power supply.
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00:05:22,473 --> 00:05:25,670
We turn on
the main circuit breaker.
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00:05:25,743 --> 00:05:31,579
You can see the voltage has
increased to 2,640 volts.
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00:05:31,649 --> 00:05:35,085
We begin the test
at the control console...
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00:05:35,152 --> 00:05:37,086
for the electric chair.
40
00:05:37,154 --> 00:05:40,419
We turn the fail-safe system on
to operation.
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00:05:43,094 --> 00:05:46,530
Power up.
Computer on.
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00:05:49,066 --> 00:05:51,762
And then I push the button
for operation.
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00:06:00,344 --> 00:06:03,211
The human body
is not easy to destroy.
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00:06:03,280 --> 00:06:07,114
It's not easy to take a life
humanely and painlessly,
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00:06:07,184 --> 00:06:11,314
without doing
a great deal of damage
to the individual's body.
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00:06:13,491 --> 00:06:16,426
Excess current
cooks the tissue.
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00:06:17,561 --> 00:06:19,495
There have been occasions...
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00:06:19,563 --> 00:06:22,498
where a great amount
of current has been applied...
49
00:06:22,566 --> 00:06:27,003
and the meat will come off
the executee's body like meat
coming off a cooked chicken.
50
00:06:32,176 --> 00:06:36,977
The execution
must be conducted
in two jolts.
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00:06:37,048 --> 00:06:39,414
In 1/240th part of a second...
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00:06:39,483 --> 00:06:44,978
the first jolt disrupts
or destroys the individual's
central nervous system.
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00:06:46,957 --> 00:06:48,891
Current is then applied...
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00:06:48,959 --> 00:06:52,053
for a time
approaching one minute.
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00:06:53,898 --> 00:06:58,335
The adrenaline
is being driven out
into the bloodstream.
56
00:07:00,337 --> 00:07:04,899
The second jolt
now seizes the pacemaker
a second time.
57
00:07:04,975 --> 00:07:08,911
There's now no adrenaline left
to restart the pacemaker.
58
00:07:10,948 --> 00:07:12,882
The person is dead.
59
00:07:14,919 --> 00:07:18,912
If the voltage does not exceed
2,000 volts...
60
00:07:18,989 --> 00:07:20,923
throughout the execution,
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00:07:20,991 --> 00:07:24,427
the individual's pacemaker
is not permanently seized.
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00:07:24,495 --> 00:07:30,263
In some 20, 30 minutes later
the individual's heart
restarts itself on its own...
63
00:07:30,334 --> 00:07:33,770
and the person
is now alive again.
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00:07:33,838 --> 00:07:36,773
They would have to call
all the witnesses back,
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00:07:36,841 --> 00:07:39,776
strap the vegetable
back into the chair...
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00:07:39,844 --> 00:07:41,778
and reelectrocute him.
67
00:07:47,084 --> 00:07:51,350
There's no difference
in a life support system
and an execution system.
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00:07:51,422 --> 00:07:54,357
Uh, the system has to
function flawlessly...
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00:07:54,425 --> 00:07:57,360
for the time period
that it's operating.
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00:07:57,428 --> 00:08:00,522
With a life support system,
if it doesn't function,
the person dies.
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00:08:00,598 --> 00:08:02,463
With an execution system,
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00:08:02,533 --> 00:08:05,798
if it doesn't
function flawlessly,
the person lives,
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00:08:05,870 --> 00:08:08,464
but he doesn't live
as a human being.
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00:08:08,539 --> 00:08:11,804
He lives as an injured,
brain-dead vegetable,
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00:08:11,876 --> 00:08:14,936
which is probably far worse
than being executed.
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00:08:14,979 --> 00:08:16,116
[ Film Projector Running ]
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00:08:16,116 --> 00:08:18,107
[ Film Projector Running ]
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00:08:24,191 --> 00:08:29,754
My father worked
in the Massachusetts
correctional system.
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00:08:29,830 --> 00:08:32,731
He was a superintendent
of transportation
for many years,
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00:08:32,799 --> 00:08:36,394
first at the old state prison
in Charlestown,
81
00:08:36,470 --> 00:08:39,405
and then at the new prison
in Walpole,
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00:08:39,473 --> 00:08:42,408
which has now since been
renamed Cedar Junction.
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00:08:43,977 --> 00:08:46,411
As many youngsters do,
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00:08:46,480 --> 00:08:48,710
I went to work
with my father.
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00:08:50,217 --> 00:08:53,880
I'd been
accompanying him to work
since I was four years old.
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00:08:56,657 --> 00:09:02,357
I visited all of the cell areas,
including the death house area.
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00:09:04,131 --> 00:09:08,500
I was in the same room that
people like Sacco and Vanzetti
were executed in.
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00:09:17,344 --> 00:09:21,610
I learned a number of things
from the inmates that
normally would be illegal...
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00:09:21,682 --> 00:09:25,948
but have proved
very useful to me
in my later life,
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00:09:26,019 --> 00:09:29,386
things like picking locks
and cracking safes and--
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00:09:29,456 --> 00:09:32,948
I learned all kinds
of strange things
as a youngster.
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00:09:40,934 --> 00:09:44,734
I came into
the execution field...
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00:09:44,805 --> 00:09:46,739
from a back-door
standpoint,
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00:09:46,807 --> 00:09:52,040
because I was very concerned
about the humanitarian aspects
of death by torture,
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00:09:52,112 --> 00:09:55,377
similar to what happened
in the state of Florida
two years ago...
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00:09:55,449 --> 00:09:57,383
with Mr.Jesse Tafero,
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00:09:57,451 --> 00:10:00,386
where they actually
set the man's head on fire.
98
00:10:01,855 --> 00:10:05,052
Once the chair broke in half
in the state of New York,
99
00:10:05,125 --> 00:10:09,061
and the individual
lay writhing on the floor
of the death chamber...
100
00:10:09,129 --> 00:10:13,793
crying for 35 or 40 minutes
while the carpenters
repaired the chair.
101
00:10:13,867 --> 00:10:15,801
They burnt
the transformer up.
102
00:10:15,869 --> 00:10:19,396
Fortunately,
due to the quick thinking
of the prison electrician,
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00:10:19,473 --> 00:10:22,408
they had some cable,
they ran some wires
over the prison wall...
104
00:10:22,476 --> 00:10:25,411
and tapped into
the outside power line...
105
00:10:25,479 --> 00:10:29,415
without the consent
of the power company, but
there was no objection later.
106
00:10:29,483 --> 00:10:31,849
They had one execution...
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00:10:31,918 --> 00:10:34,944
where the transformer
caught on fire and blew up,
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00:10:35,022 --> 00:10:37,957
and it occurred
in such a sequence...
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00:10:38,025 --> 00:10:41,085
that all it did was knock
the individual unconscious.
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00:10:41,161 --> 00:10:45,222
He came out of it with
no apparent brain damage,
no problem.
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00:10:45,298 --> 00:10:48,233
Six months later they repaired
the electric chair...
112
00:10:48,301 --> 00:10:50,735
and they did successfully
execute him.
113
00:10:50,804 --> 00:10:53,238
But, I mean,
he was very lucky.
114
00:10:53,306 --> 00:10:56,867
He was hit with
a full jolt of electricity,
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00:10:56,943 --> 00:11:00,709
the equipment blew up,
burned up...
116
00:11:00,781 --> 00:11:04,547
and he walked away from it
without any damage,
not even a burn.
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00:11:06,119 --> 00:11:08,053
One by one,
118
00:11:08,121 --> 00:11:11,056
I determined that this state's
equipment was not functional,
119
00:11:11,124 --> 00:11:13,558
this state's equipment
was not functional.
120
00:11:13,627 --> 00:11:17,393
Then suddenly one day I said,
"None of the equipment
is functional."
121
00:11:17,464 --> 00:11:21,730
Many of the electric chairs
were built by inmates
and electricians...
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00:11:21,802 --> 00:11:24,737
who had no idea
of what they were building.
123
00:11:24,805 --> 00:11:29,242
They took a picture of another
state's electric chair and made
something that looked like it.
124
00:11:33,814 --> 00:11:35,748
[ Film Projector Running ]
125
00:12:37,377 --> 00:12:39,811
Tennessee contacted me...
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00:12:39,880 --> 00:12:43,372
with the construction
of their new prison.
127
00:12:43,450 --> 00:12:47,250
I was asked to
inspect the equipment
at the old facility...
128
00:12:47,320 --> 00:12:51,484
and make a determination
of what could be salvaged.
129
00:12:51,558 --> 00:12:56,325
The only consideration was
that they wanted to maintain
the electric chair,
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00:12:56,396 --> 00:13:00,662
which they've had in place
since 1898.
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00:13:00,734 --> 00:13:04,170
The reasoning being
that the wood
from the electric chair...
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00:13:04,237 --> 00:13:09,174
not only had the tradition
of all of their
electrocution executions,
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00:13:09,242 --> 00:13:13,906
but it also formerly served
as the wood of their gallows.
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00:13:16,983 --> 00:13:20,111
The chair itself...
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00:13:20,187 --> 00:13:23,452
was much smaller
than one would expect.
136
00:13:23,523 --> 00:13:27,254
It looked more like it was made
to accommodate a youngster...
137
00:13:27,327 --> 00:13:29,261
or a woman.
138
00:13:30,931 --> 00:13:34,458
So, we essentially
made the chair wider,
139
00:13:34,534 --> 00:13:37,128
we made the chair higher.
140
00:13:40,574 --> 00:13:43,600
We supplied them with
a completely new power supply...
141
00:13:43,677 --> 00:13:46,510
so there's
no excessive cooking.
142
00:13:46,580 --> 00:13:48,013
And then finally,
143
00:13:48,081 --> 00:13:53,678
because we were unable to match
the old wood with the new oak,
144
00:13:53,753 --> 00:13:57,189
it became necessary for us
to paint the chair...
145
00:13:57,257 --> 00:14:02,126
with a special,
high-quality epoxy paint,
146
00:14:02,195 --> 00:14:05,460
the same basic paint
that's used by NASA...
147
00:14:05,532 --> 00:14:08,695
on the nose and body
of the space shuttle.
148
00:14:22,482 --> 00:14:26,145
[ Steve ]
That was back in '89,
I believe it was.
149
00:14:26,219 --> 00:14:29,848
At that time
I was still in school.
150
00:14:29,923 --> 00:14:33,654
I just remember coming home--
"What is this big box
in the front yard?"
151
00:14:37,430 --> 00:14:39,864
"Well,
it's an electric chair. "
152
00:14:39,933 --> 00:14:42,197
"Oh. "
153
00:14:44,671 --> 00:14:46,764
Fred and my uncle were here.
154
00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,331
They'd come out
with the crowbars.
155
00:14:49,409 --> 00:14:52,742
They had to break the box open,
unscrew all the parts.
156
00:14:52,812 --> 00:14:56,248
There was an electric chair
sitting in the front yard.
157
00:14:58,485 --> 00:15:01,352
It was very unusual,
something I wasn't expecting.
158
00:15:01,421 --> 00:15:04,481
I guess Fred
was expecting it.
[ Laughs ]
159
00:15:08,662 --> 00:15:11,790
It was very difficult
getting up and down
those stairs...
160
00:15:11,865 --> 00:15:15,301
with a couple hundred-pound
piece of oak chair.
161
00:15:17,203 --> 00:15:20,570
Of course, before we even
brought it inside, had to
have Fred sit down in it.
162
00:15:20,640 --> 00:15:23,575
Strapped him in--
[ Laughs ]
163
00:15:23,643 --> 00:15:26,737
I said,
"No, thanks. "
[ Camera Shutter Clicks ]
164
00:15:38,825 --> 00:15:42,761
[ Leuchter ]
I had processed
a couple of rolls of film,
165
00:15:42,829 --> 00:15:45,764
photos that I took
for engineering purposes--
166
00:15:45,832 --> 00:15:49,393
detail stuff,
so you'd know how it looked
before you took it apart.
167
00:15:50,704 --> 00:15:54,071
I went through it and said,
"What the hell's this?"
168
00:15:58,812 --> 00:16:03,579
We had a magnifier
and we were trying to
figure out what was there.
169
00:16:03,650 --> 00:16:06,847
We saw what appeared to be
more than one image.
170
00:16:09,756 --> 00:16:11,815
As far as I understand it,
171
00:16:11,891 --> 00:16:13,984
certain objects
give off auras,
172
00:16:14,060 --> 00:16:19,191
and some objects that have
been exposed to high-intensity
electromagnetic fields...
173
00:16:19,265 --> 00:16:22,530
absorb some of that energy
and would give off an aura.
174
00:16:24,371 --> 00:16:27,306
I don't know
what we photographed.
175
00:16:27,374 --> 00:16:30,810
We don't know
if we photographed an entity.
We don't know what's there.
176
00:16:33,279 --> 00:16:36,715
It may still reside
in the parts
that are in Tennessee.
177
00:16:37,984 --> 00:16:40,976
When I tore the chair apart,
maybe it was freed.
178
00:16:41,054 --> 00:16:42,988
I don't know.
179
00:16:44,357 --> 00:16:47,793
That's assuming there was
something there to start with.
180
00:16:55,004 --> 00:16:58,269
Because of my work
in electrocution,
181
00:16:58,340 --> 00:17:01,366
I was contacted by
the state of New Jersey...
182
00:17:01,443 --> 00:17:05,402
to consult with them
on the construction of
a lethal injection machine.
183
00:17:05,481 --> 00:17:10,976
They realized that
lethal injection is a difficult,
if not impossible problem,
184
00:17:11,053 --> 00:17:13,214
even for trained
medical personnel.
185
00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:21,623
They determined
that there should be
some kind of a machine...
186
00:17:21,697 --> 00:17:25,394
that could repetitively deliver
the necessary chemicals...
187
00:17:25,467 --> 00:17:27,401
at the proper
time intervals...
188
00:17:27,469 --> 00:17:30,063
for all executions.
189
00:17:30,139 --> 00:17:34,075
This completely took
the human factor
out of it.
190
00:17:34,143 --> 00:17:36,270
I studied
for several months,
191
00:17:36,345 --> 00:17:40,281
and I put together a proposal
on how this machine should work.
192
00:17:41,650 --> 00:17:43,777
The syringe is driven
by a weighted piston...
193
00:17:43,852 --> 00:17:46,343
that floats
on a column of air.
194
00:17:46,422 --> 00:17:48,720
This causes
a push-pull relationship...
195
00:17:48,791 --> 00:17:52,386
between the machine
and the individual's
vascular system,
196
00:17:52,461 --> 00:17:57,160
and it allows the executee
to take the chemical...
197
00:17:57,232 --> 00:18:01,100
at a rate that his body
and vein will accept.
198
00:18:02,938 --> 00:18:04,872
The doctors were satisfied.
199
00:18:04,940 --> 00:18:08,603
Now they had
to make the presentation
to the prison officials.
200
00:18:08,677 --> 00:18:13,171
The deputy commissioner
was sittin' there through
most of the meeting very bored,
201
00:18:13,248 --> 00:18:16,479
probably because
he didn't understand
what I was talking about...
202
00:18:16,552 --> 00:18:18,986
most of the time.
203
00:18:19,054 --> 00:18:22,581
But then he finally heard
something he understood.
204
00:18:22,658 --> 00:18:27,095
One of the doctors said,
"Fred designed the helmet that's
used on the electric chair...
205
00:18:27,162 --> 00:18:29,426
in the state
of North Carolina."
206
00:18:29,498 --> 00:18:34,094
At that point
the deputy commissioner said,
"Wait. Stop the meeting."
207
00:18:34,169 --> 00:18:38,105
He looked at me and says,
"You designed the helmet,
the one that they just used?"
208
00:18:38,173 --> 00:18:41,108
I says, "Yes."
He said, "Okay, that does it."
209
00:18:41,176 --> 00:18:44,168
He turned around
to the doctors and he says,
"Do the necessary paperwork...
210
00:18:44,246 --> 00:18:47,306
and see that Mr. Leuchter
gets the contract. "
211
00:18:47,382 --> 00:18:53,252
Now, what lethal injection
has to do with electrocution
is beyond me.
212
00:18:53,322 --> 00:18:56,655
Simply because I'm capable
of building an electric chair...
213
00:18:56,725 --> 00:18:59,660
doesn't mean
I'm capable of building
a lethal injection machine.
214
00:18:59,728 --> 00:19:01,923
They're two totally
different concepts.
215
00:19:03,398 --> 00:19:05,559
[ Beeping ]
With electrocution,
216
00:19:05,634 --> 00:19:10,435
unconsciousness takes place
in 1/240th part of a second.
217
00:19:10,506 --> 00:19:13,236
Gas chamber,
within three or four minutes.
218
00:19:13,308 --> 00:19:15,742
And with the gallows
it doesn't matter,
219
00:19:15,811 --> 00:19:19,008
because you're being dropped
almost immediately after being
brought onto the scaffold.
220
00:19:21,083 --> 00:19:25,019
None of the procedures require
that somebody lay on a gurney
for 35 minutes...
221
00:19:25,087 --> 00:19:27,021
looking at a ceiling.
222
00:19:28,824 --> 00:19:30,758
You have to have the man
immobile.
223
00:19:30,826 --> 00:19:34,762
He has to be unable to move,
or else he's gonna damage
his arm with the catheter.
224
00:19:34,830 --> 00:19:37,264
But you certainly can
make it more comfortable.
225
00:19:37,332 --> 00:19:40,768
You could put him in
a contoured chair like they have
in the dentist's office.
226
00:19:40,836 --> 00:19:42,770
Then at least
he'd be sitting up.
227
00:19:42,838 --> 00:19:46,433
You could give him
a television, music,
some pictures on the wall...
228
00:19:47,643 --> 00:19:50,077
rather than put him
in a concrete room.
229
00:19:50,145 --> 00:19:52,079
That's not humane.
230
00:20:01,590 --> 00:20:05,686
Essentially, the states
talk with each other.
231
00:20:05,761 --> 00:20:09,629
We immediately got Illinois,
and we got Delaware.
232
00:20:09,698 --> 00:20:13,395
They had a hanging problem
that they totally were not
able to deal with.
233
00:20:13,468 --> 00:20:18,337
They had a gallows
that had been stored
for 25 or 30 years.
234
00:20:18,407 --> 00:20:21,843
They took it out,
they screwed it together
and it fell over.
235
00:20:21,910 --> 00:20:25,937
The only thing left
that was functional were
the hinges for the trap door.
236
00:20:27,850 --> 00:20:32,253
The reasoning here is that
I'd built helmets
for electric chairs,
237
00:20:32,321 --> 00:20:34,482
so I could build
lethal injection machines.
238
00:20:34,556 --> 00:20:36,990
I now built
lethal injection machines,
239
00:20:37,059 --> 00:20:39,653
so I'm now competent
to build a gallows.
240
00:20:42,397 --> 00:20:45,332
And since
I'm building gallows,
241
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,335
I'm also competent
to work on gas chambers...
242
00:20:48,403 --> 00:20:51,839
because I'd done
all of the other three.
243
00:20:51,907 --> 00:20:55,138
What really makes you competent
is the fact that you have
the necessary background,
244
00:20:55,210 --> 00:20:59,146
you do the investigation,
you find out what the problem is
and you solve it.
245
00:21:00,849 --> 00:21:05,252
It's not anything different
than any competent engineer
could do.
246
00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,689
The difference is that
it's not a major market.
247
00:21:10,792 --> 00:21:13,727
A lot of people
are not interested...
248
00:21:13,795 --> 00:21:18,732
and are morally opposed
to working on
execution equipment.
249
00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:21,735
They think it's somehow
gonna change them.
250
00:21:26,708 --> 00:21:28,642
As you've probably guessed
by now,
251
00:21:28,710 --> 00:21:31,804
I am a proponent
of capital punishment.
252
00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:34,815
Uh, I'm certainly not
a proponent of capital torture.
253
00:21:35,851 --> 00:21:37,751
We must always remember...
254
00:21:37,819 --> 00:21:39,753
and we must never forget...
255
00:21:39,821 --> 00:21:42,756
the fact that the person
being executed
is a human being.
256
00:21:48,697 --> 00:21:51,723
One of the things
that I've had to deal with...
257
00:21:51,800 --> 00:21:56,703
is the feelings of the people
who are doing the executions.
258
00:21:58,006 --> 00:22:01,203
The guards that work
with the execution equipment...
259
00:22:01,276 --> 00:22:05,235
are generally
the same guards that have
dealt with that inmate...
260
00:22:05,314 --> 00:22:08,613
for the last five,
ten, fifteen,
sometimes twenty years...
261
00:22:08,684 --> 00:22:11,881
while the man
was on Death Row.
262
00:22:11,954 --> 00:22:14,184
The warden
of the institution...
263
00:22:14,222 --> 00:22:15,338
is, in many respects,
the surrogate father...
264
00:22:15,338 --> 00:22:17,169
is, in many respects,
the surrogate father...
265
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:19,401
of the inmate
who's being executed.
266
00:22:21,444 --> 00:22:24,811
He sees that inmate
maybe five or six times a week.
267
00:22:24,881 --> 00:22:28,977
He's concerned
if the inmate is sick, if
the inmate doesn't feel well--
268
00:22:29,052 --> 00:22:30,986
the general welfare
of the inmate.
269
00:22:31,054 --> 00:22:33,716
Then, at the end of the time,
he must take that inmate out,
270
00:22:33,790 --> 00:22:37,055
strap him into
his electric chair,
his gas chamber,
271
00:22:37,127 --> 00:22:39,459
strap him into
his lethal injection machine...
272
00:22:39,529 --> 00:22:41,963
or put a noose
around his neck.
273
00:22:43,666 --> 00:22:46,601
Most people think
of a hardened criminal
and a murderer...
274
00:22:46,669 --> 00:22:49,604
as someone who is in a cell
and gonna be executed,
275
00:22:49,672 --> 00:22:53,972
but these people are really
no different than somebody
that we work with every day.
276
00:22:54,043 --> 00:22:57,570
The only difference is,
the inmate doesn't go home
and the guard does.
277
00:22:59,549 --> 00:23:02,916
And now, at the end of
this ten or fifteen-year cycle,
278
00:23:02,986 --> 00:23:06,251
they now are faced with the task
of executing this man...
279
00:23:06,322 --> 00:23:08,984
with equipment
that's defective,
280
00:23:09,058 --> 00:23:11,822
with equipment
that's gonna cause pain.
281
00:23:16,766 --> 00:23:18,700
Even with
a good execution...
282
00:23:18,768 --> 00:23:21,965
you get some burning
at the electrodes.
283
00:23:22,038 --> 00:23:24,438
It's a very
distasteful thing...
284
00:23:24,507 --> 00:23:28,773
for the guard who
has to unstrap the inmate
from the electric chair...
285
00:23:28,845 --> 00:23:31,473
after the execution.
286
00:23:31,548 --> 00:23:35,814
Normally, if we think of a belt
with holes in it and the pin
that goes through the holes,
287
00:23:35,885 --> 00:23:39,821
that guard has to then
compress all the flesh
and everything on the body.
288
00:23:39,889 --> 00:23:42,050
It's oozing,
because it's been cooked.
289
00:23:42,125 --> 00:23:45,060
He has to get the body fluids
on his hands.
290
00:23:46,963 --> 00:23:48,897
With the equipment
we designed,
291
00:23:48,965 --> 00:23:51,399
all of the straps
are instant-release.
292
00:23:51,467 --> 00:23:54,402
They're the same
as the safety belts in your car.
293
00:23:54,470 --> 00:23:56,870
You hit a button
and the strap opens.
294
00:23:56,940 --> 00:24:00,398
Another thing that we do is,
our electric chair
contains a drip pan.
295
00:24:01,311 --> 00:24:03,245
All executees,
296
00:24:03,313 --> 00:24:05,247
during the execution,
297
00:24:05,315 --> 00:24:07,749
lose control
of their bodily functions.
298
00:24:07,817 --> 00:24:10,752
They urinate and defecate
in their pants, on their chair.
299
00:24:10,820 --> 00:24:16,087
This normally winds up
on the chair and on the floor
directly beneath the chair.
300
00:24:16,159 --> 00:24:19,094
This is a disgusting thing
when it occurs.
301
00:24:19,162 --> 00:24:24,794
It's a very inhumane thing
to allow a person
who's being executed,
302
00:24:24,867 --> 00:24:27,392
a human being...
303
00:24:27,470 --> 00:24:33,375
who should be afforded
the greatest dignity of all
because he is losing his life--
304
00:24:33,443 --> 00:24:37,379
It's a disgusting
and a degrading thing
to allow him to defecate...
305
00:24:37,447 --> 00:24:40,382
and, quite frankly,
piss on the floor.
306
00:24:41,451 --> 00:24:43,544
Additionally,
the urine,
307
00:24:43,620 --> 00:24:47,647
when it hits the floor--
and I think everybody knows that
urine is highly conductive--
308
00:24:47,724 --> 00:24:50,022
it's normally mopped up.
309
00:24:50,093 --> 00:24:53,358
If there's a second execution
or a third execution--
310
00:24:53,429 --> 00:24:57,866
and this sometimes occurs
when they have more than one
execution at the same time--
311
00:24:57,934 --> 00:25:01,802
the guards in the death house
now have to work and stand
on a floor...
312
00:25:01,871 --> 00:25:03,805
that's dampened and wet...
313
00:25:03,873 --> 00:25:05,807
with this
highly conductive urine.
314
00:25:05,875 --> 00:25:08,810
Fortunately, there has
never been an accident.
315
00:25:08,878 --> 00:25:13,577
But it's quite possible for
the urine to conduct electricity
and shock a guard.
316
00:25:13,650 --> 00:25:17,711
And nobody should have to
place his life in jeopardy...
317
00:25:17,787 --> 00:25:20,221
because an execution
is being conducted.
318
00:25:27,163 --> 00:25:30,599
This is much the same thing
that goes on
with the gas chambers.
319
00:25:30,667 --> 00:25:33,602
With the defective equipment
that exists,
320
00:25:33,670 --> 00:25:36,104
every time
there's a gas execution...
321
00:25:36,172 --> 00:25:38,640
it's an accident
waiting to happen.
322
00:25:38,708 --> 00:25:43,304
There is a major danger
of leakage,
323
00:25:43,379 --> 00:25:45,643
and I honestly believe
and I wish...
324
00:25:45,715 --> 00:25:48,946
that those remaining few states
that are utilizing gas...
325
00:25:49,018 --> 00:25:51,953
would do away
with the gas chamber...
326
00:25:52,021 --> 00:25:54,956
and go to lethal injection
or some other procedure...
327
00:25:55,024 --> 00:26:00,018
which wouldn't place in danger
the lives of witnesses
and prison officials...
328
00:26:00,096 --> 00:26:04,795
who have to be at that execution
to see that the execution
conforms with the law.
329
00:26:08,004 --> 00:26:11,496
Being familiar with
all of the four systems
that we use,
330
00:26:11,574 --> 00:26:14,873
I would much rather
be electrocuted,
331
00:26:14,944 --> 00:26:18,846
providing that you were gonna
electrocute me on the system
that's in Tennessee.
332
00:26:20,016 --> 00:26:22,951
I don't want to be
electrocuted in Virginia.
333
00:26:23,019 --> 00:26:25,954
I don't want to be
electrocuted in Florida.
334
00:26:26,022 --> 00:26:28,957
I don't want to be
electrocuted in Alabama.
335
00:26:29,025 --> 00:26:34,930
I don't want to be Mr. Tafero
or have my eyeballs
blown across the room.
336
00:26:34,997 --> 00:26:38,091
I'd like the execution procedure
to go smoothly.
337
00:26:42,138 --> 00:26:47,075
I have often been asked,
generally by some type
of adverse party,
338
00:26:47,143 --> 00:26:51,079
whether I sleep at night,
or how well I sleep at night.
339
00:26:51,147 --> 00:26:53,411
My answer
is always the same.
340
00:26:53,483 --> 00:26:57,817
I sleep very well at night,
and I sleep with
the comforting thought...
341
00:26:57,887 --> 00:27:02,347
of knowing that those persons
that are being executed
with my equipment,
342
00:27:02,425 --> 00:27:05,360
that these people
have a better chance...
343
00:27:05,428 --> 00:27:09,865
of having a painless,
more humane
and dignified execution.
344
00:27:20,543 --> 00:27:22,977
Been drinking coffee
for a long time,
345
00:27:23,045 --> 00:27:26,481
since I was, probably,
around four or five years old.
346
00:27:28,151 --> 00:27:30,915
Yes, it's still true.
I love coffee.
347
00:27:30,987 --> 00:27:33,421
I think it's running
through my veins.
348
00:27:36,759 --> 00:27:39,091
Coffee never
bothers the ulcer,
349
00:27:39,162 --> 00:27:42,620
but I remember,
must be 15, 20 years ago
when I went to the doctor--
350
00:27:42,698 --> 00:27:46,031
He was asking me, "How much
coffee do you drink a day ?"
" About 40 cups. "
351
00:27:46,102 --> 00:27:50,402
So he's writing it down.
"How much coffee do you drink
a day ?" " About 40 cups. "
352
00:27:50,473 --> 00:27:53,909
He says, "How much coffee
do you drink a day ?"
And I says, " About 40 cups. "
353
00:27:53,976 --> 00:27:57,207
He says,
"Look, I'm not kidding. "
I says, "I'm not either. "
354
00:27:57,280 --> 00:28:02,274
He said, "Oh?
How much do you smoke a day ?"
I said, " About six packs. "
355
00:28:03,786 --> 00:28:07,153
He said,
"Six packs of cigarettes,
40 cups of coffee a day.
356
00:28:07,223 --> 00:28:10,158
You should be dead by now. "
[ Laughs ]
357
00:28:12,562 --> 00:28:15,998
If I don't drink the coffee,
I get headaches.
They're terrible.
358
00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:21,600
My body's
so used to the caffeine
that it doesn't bother me.
359
00:28:21,671 --> 00:28:25,129
I'm asleep before my head
hits the pillow.
360
00:28:28,811 --> 00:28:32,144
Somewhere along the line,
she just appeared.
361
00:28:32,215 --> 00:28:36,276
I was a good tipper,
and she used to bring me
extra coffee.
362
00:28:38,421 --> 00:28:43,950
[ Woman ] I was a waitress,
he was a customer.
I was working nights.
363
00:28:44,026 --> 00:28:47,462
He'd come in on his way
to the gun club.
364
00:28:47,530 --> 00:28:49,464
He taught me how to shoot.
365
00:28:51,534 --> 00:28:53,468
I have a.22.
366
00:28:59,008 --> 00:29:03,377
This guy Joe asked me
if I knew what Fred did
for a living.
367
00:29:03,446 --> 00:29:07,280
I said "No, " and he said,
"He kills people. "
368
00:29:08,417 --> 00:29:10,351
That kind of surprised me...
369
00:29:10,419 --> 00:29:13,684
until he explained
exactly what he did,
370
00:29:13,756 --> 00:29:16,691
which wasn't
that he killed people,
371
00:29:16,759 --> 00:29:19,227
but he made things
that killed people.
372
00:29:21,564 --> 00:29:25,330
He was having problems
at home with his mother.
373
00:29:25,401 --> 00:29:28,336
She wasn't talking to him,
and we just got married.
374
00:29:40,564 --> 00:29:45,934
Because of my expertise
in the construction
of execution equipment,
375
00:29:46,003 --> 00:29:48,062
I was asked to testify...
376
00:29:48,138 --> 00:29:50,402
by the defense team...
377
00:29:50,474 --> 00:29:52,408
of Mr. Ernst Z�ndel,
378
00:29:52,476 --> 00:29:57,743
a German national
living in Canada
for some 20-odd years...
379
00:29:57,814 --> 00:30:01,750
who published a pamphlet.:
"Did Six Million Really Die?"
380
00:30:05,422 --> 00:30:08,357
[ Reporter ]
As in most of
his public appearances,
381
00:30:08,425 --> 00:30:12,225
Ernst Z�ndel arrived at court
surrounded by supporters
wearing hard hats.
382
00:30:12,295 --> 00:30:15,890
They are bodyguards
for a man who says
the Holocaust is a myth...
383
00:30:15,966 --> 00:30:19,458
and who's prepared to argue that
before a judge and jury.
384
00:30:19,536 --> 00:30:23,131
Z�ndel is charged
under a rarely used section
of the criminal code...
385
00:30:23,206 --> 00:30:26,141
that he published statements
he knew were false,
386
00:30:26,209 --> 00:30:28,268
statements that could cause
racial intolerance.
387
00:30:28,345 --> 00:30:31,439
Forty-five years
of undetermined hatred
is enough.
388
00:30:31,515 --> 00:30:35,042
The Holocaust is nothing
but undetermined
hate propaganda...
389
00:30:35,118 --> 00:30:37,052
posing as history.
390
00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:41,682
l, with the help of my friends
from around the world,
Jews and gentiles,
391
00:30:41,758 --> 00:30:45,285
am going to finish
the Second World War,
I guarantee you.
392
00:30:47,631 --> 00:30:50,759
[ Z�ndel ]
We can solve the mystery
of the gas chambers...
393
00:30:50,834 --> 00:30:53,268
in Auschwitz
and all these other places...
394
00:30:53,336 --> 00:30:56,271
if we find
an American expert,
395
00:30:56,339 --> 00:31:00,469
because America
is the only country that
dispatches people with gas.
396
00:31:02,279 --> 00:31:06,010
You can't open up
the phone book and say "gas,"
then "chamber," then "experts,"
397
00:31:06,083 --> 00:31:08,017
and out come
ten Fred Leuchters.
398
00:31:08,085 --> 00:31:10,019
No, there's nobody.
399
00:31:10,087 --> 00:31:13,022
Fred Leuchter
was our only hope.
400
00:31:30,507 --> 00:31:33,943
[ Leuchter ]
We were married for less
than a month when we went.
401
00:31:35,345 --> 00:31:37,779
Although she doesn't
like to hear it,
402
00:31:37,848 --> 00:31:41,284
I normally tell her
that was her honeymoon.
403
00:31:41,351 --> 00:31:45,788
That's not
a particularly good place
to go for a honeymoon, Poland.
404
00:31:47,324 --> 00:31:50,885
Every American,
it would have done them good
to visit there.
405
00:31:50,961 --> 00:31:54,397
Then they would have appreciated
what we've got here.
406
00:32:04,975 --> 00:32:09,412
Specifically, I brought
Carol and my draftsman
Howard Miller.
407
00:32:11,148 --> 00:32:14,140
Sent with us from Canada...
408
00:32:14,217 --> 00:32:19,484
was a cinematographer
who videotaped
everything we did...
409
00:32:21,525 --> 00:32:23,891
and a translator...
410
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:28,124
who's fluent both in German
and particularly in Polish.
411
00:32:30,901 --> 00:32:34,337
We were small, but we had
everything we needed.
412
00:33:30,460 --> 00:33:35,830
Our first night there we stayed
at the Auschwitz Hotel,
413
00:33:35,899 --> 00:33:39,164
which, apparently, was
the officer's quarters...
414
00:33:39,236 --> 00:33:41,397
for the German military
at Auschwitz.
415
00:33:43,039 --> 00:33:46,702
They had a cafeteria-style
dining area,
416
00:33:46,776 --> 00:33:48,710
and our first meal there...
417
00:33:48,778 --> 00:33:51,975
was, uh, starch soup.
418
00:33:52,048 --> 00:33:55,074
What they did is,
they boiled noodles
in water,
419
00:33:55,151 --> 00:33:58,086
removed the noodles
and served the soup.
420
00:33:59,155 --> 00:34:01,521
It was terrible.
421
00:34:01,591 --> 00:34:04,719
Unfortunately,
I received a double portion,
422
00:34:04,794 --> 00:34:09,731
because when I wasn't looking
my wife dumped hers
into my dish.
423
00:34:11,245 --> 00:34:14,339
Good morning.
My name is Fred Leuchter.
424
00:34:14,414 --> 00:34:17,679
I'm an engineer from Boston
in the United States,
425
00:34:17,751 --> 00:34:21,710
and I'm here this snowy morning
at Auschwitz in Poland.
426
00:34:21,789 --> 00:34:25,748
The date is February 28.
It's approximately 10:30 a.m.
427
00:34:25,826 --> 00:34:27,760
I'm here to examine...
428
00:34:27,828 --> 00:34:29,762
this alleged gas chamber.
429
00:34:29,830 --> 00:34:32,765
Some people feel
it was an air raid shelter.
430
00:34:32,833 --> 00:34:35,825
Other people feel that
it was simply a morgue.
431
00:34:35,903 --> 00:34:40,237
And then there are those
that feel the structure
functioned as a gas chamber...
432
00:34:40,307 --> 00:34:43,936
for sending people
on their way to their death.
433
00:34:47,881 --> 00:34:50,941
Carol was outside
at one of the entrances,
434
00:34:51,018 --> 00:34:52,952
essentially freezing.
435
00:34:53,020 --> 00:34:54,988
She was
one of our lookouts.
436
00:34:56,890 --> 00:35:02,294
We had her at one door.
The translator
was at the other door.
437
00:35:02,362 --> 00:35:05,627
Howard, my draftsman,
and myself were inside,
438
00:35:05,699 --> 00:35:10,898
taking measurements
and recording the locations
and bagging the samples,
439
00:35:10,971 --> 00:35:14,498
and the cinematographer
was making the videotapes.
440
00:35:14,575 --> 00:35:17,908
So everybody was busy at
what they were supposed to do.
441
00:35:17,978 --> 00:35:19,912
We didn't have
any extra people.
442
00:35:24,985 --> 00:35:28,512
We made paint scrapings
and chiseled plaster
from locations...
443
00:35:28,589 --> 00:35:31,217
that are not
immediately noticeable,
444
00:35:31,291 --> 00:35:35,728
but still were proper locations
for condensation of cyanide gas.
445
00:35:38,632 --> 00:35:42,898
We made detailed
scale drawings of the rooms...
446
00:35:42,970 --> 00:35:46,337
with arrows showing
the location that was removed.
447
00:35:48,809 --> 00:35:54,475
The notebook, videotape
and the drawings...
448
00:35:54,548 --> 00:35:58,245
were given to the court
and became part
of the permanent evidence.
449
00:36:11,598 --> 00:36:17,093
[ Man ]
Z�ndel is on trial
for publishing false history,
450
00:36:17,170 --> 00:36:21,106
for publishing books
of Holocaust denial.
451
00:36:22,676 --> 00:36:25,270
He needs to prove...
452
00:36:25,345 --> 00:36:29,281
that what others see
as false history
is true history.
453
00:36:30,450 --> 00:36:33,385
Fred Leuchter
is their trump card.
454
00:36:34,688 --> 00:36:36,622
He will be the scientist...
455
00:36:36,690 --> 00:36:40,490
who will reclaim
from those ruins...
456
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,927
evidence that killing
didn't happen there.
457
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,527
Holocaust denial, for me,
is so revolting,
458
00:36:50,604 --> 00:36:54,301
and the way for me not to
immediately become sick...
459
00:36:54,374 --> 00:36:57,104
of having to deal
with Leuchter...
460
00:36:57,177 --> 00:37:00,613
was by saying,
"Okay, I'm going to
map his journey. "
461
00:37:02,816 --> 00:37:06,252
I have a job to do,
and my job, my first job,
462
00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:10,757
is to try to understand
where this guy was
at what time,
463
00:37:19,166 --> 00:37:22,795
to take that tape and record
every camera angle--
464
00:37:22,869 --> 00:37:26,361
where it was,
what piece of wall
they were looking at,
465
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:28,374
where he took the samples.
466
00:37:32,612 --> 00:37:37,549
It was important to be able
to follow that trail
very, very precisely.
467
00:37:38,752 --> 00:37:41,516
I wanted to see
how he had done it.
468
00:38:14,221 --> 00:38:17,156
Sixty-one feet.
469
00:38:17,224 --> 00:38:22,093
Sixty-one feet
from the rear wall.
470
00:38:22,162 --> 00:38:25,598
[ Van Pelt ]
Leuchter's a victim of
the myth of Sherlock Holmes.
471
00:38:25,665 --> 00:38:27,599
[ Leuchter Continues,
Faint ]
472
00:38:27,667 --> 00:38:29,601
A crime has been committed.
473
00:38:29,669 --> 00:38:34,606
You go to the site of the crime
and with a magnifying glass
you find a hair...
474
00:38:34,674 --> 00:38:37,507
or a speck of dust
on the shoe.
475
00:38:39,012 --> 00:38:42,948
Leuchter thinks that is the way
reality can be reconstructed.
476
00:38:44,351 --> 00:38:46,785
But he is
no Sherlock Holmes.
477
00:38:47,954 --> 00:38:49,888
He doesn't have the training.
478
00:38:52,259 --> 00:38:55,194
It was not that he brought
any experience,
479
00:38:55,262 --> 00:38:59,699
the specific experience needed
to look at ruined buildings.
480
00:39:01,168 --> 00:39:03,932
The only experience he had...
481
00:39:04,004 --> 00:39:08,941
was design modifications
for the Missouri gas chambers
in Jacksonville.
482
00:39:30,664 --> 00:39:33,861
[ Carol ]
Birkenau I never went in.
483
00:39:33,934 --> 00:39:36,528
I stayed in the car,
with no keys,
484
00:39:36,603 --> 00:39:41,097
and froze my... whatever off--
feet.
485
00:39:41,174 --> 00:39:44,109
I was in the car
for hours.
486
00:39:45,812 --> 00:39:48,406
I brought books to read.
487
00:39:48,482 --> 00:39:50,416
Mystery books.
488
00:39:51,551 --> 00:39:53,485
And crossword puzzles.
489
00:39:54,921 --> 00:39:57,856
I do a lot
of crossword puzzles.
490
00:40:00,228 --> 00:40:03,527
I didn't consider it
my honeymoon.
Let's put it that way.
491
00:40:05,933 --> 00:40:09,869
I don't know that we ever
slept in the same bed
while we were there.
492
00:40:13,608 --> 00:40:16,543
I try to forget
about going there.
493
00:40:27,288 --> 00:40:30,519
[ Leuchter ]
I should note that
everything that was done,
494
00:40:30,591 --> 00:40:33,116
was done
in the best possible taste,
495
00:40:33,194 --> 00:40:37,130
understanding that these things
are national shrines
and national monuments.
496
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:42,636
The only thing that was
a little bit harrowing
or frightening...
497
00:40:42,703 --> 00:40:45,638
is that I didn't want
to get caught.
498
00:40:45,706 --> 00:40:51,144
Unfortunately, you have to
make a lot of noise when you're
chiseling brick out of walls.
499
00:40:58,986 --> 00:41:02,854
[ Van Pelt ]
Auschwitz is like
the holy of holies.
500
00:41:02,924 --> 00:41:05,688
I prepared years
to go there.
501
00:41:05,760 --> 00:41:08,854
And to have a fool come in,
502
00:41:08,930 --> 00:41:12,297
coming completely unprepared,
503
00:41:12,366 --> 00:41:14,800
it's sacrilege.
504
00:41:14,869 --> 00:41:19,329
Somebody who walks into
the holy of holies
and doesn't give a damn.
505
00:41:25,413 --> 00:41:30,976
[ Leuchter ] I expected to see
facilities that could have
been used as gas chambers.
506
00:41:31,052 --> 00:41:33,987
I expected to see areas
that were explosion-proof.
507
00:41:34,055 --> 00:41:37,923
I expected to see areas
that were leak-proof.
508
00:41:39,727 --> 00:41:45,495
There have to be holes in walls
or areas where they had
exhaust fans and pipes.
509
00:41:45,566 --> 00:41:50,162
There has to be something
to remove the gas after
it's been put into the room.
510
00:41:52,773 --> 00:41:56,573
There has to be
some kind of device
to heat the chalk pellets...
511
00:41:56,644 --> 00:42:00,307
and sublimate the gas
to get it to go
into the air.
512
00:42:01,582 --> 00:42:03,516
These things didn't exist.
513
00:42:15,963 --> 00:42:18,898
[ Van Pelt ]
Auschwitz is very,
very different...
514
00:42:18,966 --> 00:42:21,901
from the place it was
during the war.
515
00:42:23,337 --> 00:42:26,272
Everything has changed
three or four times...
516
00:42:26,340 --> 00:42:30,140
since that camp operated
as an extermination camp.
517
00:42:32,613 --> 00:42:36,743
The barracks are 50 years old.
They're moldy, they smell bad.
518
00:42:36,817 --> 00:42:39,752
It's not a smell of the war.
519
00:42:39,820 --> 00:42:44,757
It's a smell of decay,
of 50 years of being exposed
to the elements.
520
00:42:47,828 --> 00:42:50,490
There's no way that
when you go to the crematoria...
521
00:42:50,564 --> 00:42:55,058
you really can understand
what it was to be led there
as a victim,
522
00:42:55,136 --> 00:42:58,902
to have to undress
and be led in the gas chamber.
523
00:42:58,973 --> 00:43:01,840
And when you are in
the building archive,
524
00:43:01,909 --> 00:43:06,505
it is possible to reimagine
what the place was like...
525
00:43:06,580 --> 00:43:08,514
during the war.
526
00:43:35,109 --> 00:43:38,670
The first time
I came into the archive,
I was stunned.
527
00:43:41,248 --> 00:43:44,684
I had found a mission.
I had found a task.
I had found a vocation.
528
00:43:46,821 --> 00:43:50,348
When you go to Birkenau
there's very little left,
529
00:43:50,424 --> 00:43:52,756
and to suddenly
have in that room...
530
00:43:52,827 --> 00:43:55,762
that concentration
of evidence--
531
00:43:55,830 --> 00:44:00,460
There is a tactile reality,
an incredible texture,
532
00:44:00,534 --> 00:44:03,264
the texture
of making that camp.
533
00:44:12,580 --> 00:44:15,310
[ Train Whistle Blows,
Faint ]
534
00:44:18,219 --> 00:44:20,449
If Leuchter had gone
to the archives,
535
00:44:20,521 --> 00:44:23,718
if he had spent time
in the archives...
536
00:44:23,791 --> 00:44:28,285
he would have found evidence
about ventilation systems,
537
00:44:28,362 --> 00:44:33,299
evidence about ways
to introduce Zyklon B
into these buildings,
538
00:44:33,367 --> 00:44:36,495
evidence of gas chambers,
539
00:44:36,570 --> 00:44:39,437
undressing rooms.
540
00:44:39,507 --> 00:44:42,965
But then, of course,
I don't think he knows German,
541
00:44:43,043 --> 00:44:45,978
so it wouldn't have helped
very much.
542
00:44:48,549 --> 00:44:51,143
[ Typing ]
543
00:44:51,218 --> 00:44:54,051
26th of February, 1943,
544
00:44:54,121 --> 00:44:56,988
20 after 6.:00 p.m.
545
00:44:57,057 --> 00:45:01,255
Telegram to
Topfwerke Erfurt.
546
00:45:01,328 --> 00:45:05,856
"Send immediately
ten gas detectors.
547
00:45:05,933 --> 00:45:08,333
"Invoice us later.
548
00:45:08,402 --> 00:45:10,336
Signed, Pollok,
S.S. Untersturmfuhrer."
549
00:45:20,381 --> 00:45:24,943
" Auschwitz, 6 March, 1943.
550
00:45:25,019 --> 00:45:30,821
"Subject.:
Crematoria Two and Three.
551
00:45:30,891 --> 00:45:33,325
"In accordance
with your suggestion,
552
00:45:33,394 --> 00:45:37,160
"Cellar One
should be preheated.
553
00:45:37,231 --> 00:45:40,667
" At the same time,
we would ask you to send
an additional quotation...
554
00:45:40,734 --> 00:45:44,226
"for the air
extraction installation
in the undressing room.
555
00:45:44,305 --> 00:45:47,297
S.S. Sturmundfuhrer Bishof. "
556
00:45:52,713 --> 00:45:55,876
"31 March, 1943.
557
00:45:57,017 --> 00:45:58,882
"Three gas-tight doors...
558
00:45:58,953 --> 00:46:00,750
"have been completed.
559
00:46:01,889 --> 00:46:04,824
"We remind you
of an additional order...
560
00:46:04,892 --> 00:46:08,988
"for the gas door
for Crematorium Three.
561
00:46:09,063 --> 00:46:11,998
"This must be made
with a spy hole...
562
00:46:12,066 --> 00:46:14,534
"with double
eight-millimeter glass.
563
00:46:15,769 --> 00:46:20,035
"This order
is particularly urgent.
564
00:46:20,107 --> 00:46:23,042
Signed,
S.S. Major Bishof. "
565
00:46:39,827 --> 00:46:42,261
There was a code.
566
00:46:42,329 --> 00:46:44,422
The Germans
had a coded language.
567
00:46:45,532 --> 00:46:47,625
You never talk
about extermination.
568
00:46:47,701 --> 00:46:50,192
You always talk about
"special action"...
569
00:46:50,271 --> 00:46:52,205
or "special treatment. "
570
00:46:52,273 --> 00:46:55,868
There was
a very clear policy.
571
00:46:55,943 --> 00:46:58,810
Words like " gas chamber"
would not be used.
572
00:46:58,879 --> 00:47:02,940
The letter of Bishof
of the 29th of January...
573
00:47:03,017 --> 00:47:05,451
is a kind of exception
in this...
574
00:47:05,519 --> 00:47:11,151
because it is a letter
which is written by a person who
manages the whole operation...
575
00:47:11,225 --> 00:47:16,458
and who himself had established
a policy that you would never
use the words "gas chamber."
576
00:47:16,530 --> 00:47:18,464
Somebody
in the architecture office...
577
00:47:18,532 --> 00:47:21,899
underlined the word
"Vergasungskeller,"
578
00:47:23,037 --> 00:47:25,164
literally,
" gassing basement, "
579
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:28,174
and put on top a note--
580
00:47:28,242 --> 00:47:32,508
"S.S. Untersturmfuhrer
Kierschnecht,
exclamation mark. "
581
00:47:32,579 --> 00:47:35,275
This means Kierschnecht
should be informed...
582
00:47:35,349 --> 00:47:37,283
about this slip.
583
00:47:38,452 --> 00:47:41,319
It doesn't occur after that.
584
00:47:41,388 --> 00:47:46,087
The Nazis were the first
Holocaust deniers...
585
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,424
because they deny
to themselves...
586
00:47:48,495 --> 00:47:50,429
that it's happening.
587
00:47:56,331 --> 00:47:59,732
When my doubt
about the Holocaust
first came to me,
588
00:47:59,801 --> 00:48:02,668
it took me
two and a half years.
589
00:48:02,737 --> 00:48:04,762
I was like
a reforming alcoholic.
590
00:48:05,707 --> 00:48:07,641
I was like one yo-yo...
591
00:48:07,709 --> 00:48:09,643
back and forth--
592
00:48:09,711 --> 00:48:12,578
believe, not believe;
maybe believe;
false belief;, true belief.
593
00:48:14,148 --> 00:48:18,812
Fred was able
to purge his own mind...
594
00:48:18,886 --> 00:48:22,788
within a matter of a week.
595
00:48:22,857 --> 00:48:24,791
That's amazing to me.
596
00:48:26,227 --> 00:48:29,162
So I said,
"Fred, what convinced you?"
597
00:48:29,230 --> 00:48:33,667
He said, "Ernst,
it wasn't what I found.
598
00:48:33,735 --> 00:48:37,466
"It's what I didn't find
that blew me away.
599
00:48:38,639 --> 00:48:42,268
"It never, ever
occurred to me...
600
00:48:42,343 --> 00:48:46,780
that a man could be convinced
by something that is not there. "
601
00:48:46,848 --> 00:48:48,782
That's what Fred said.
602
00:48:54,022 --> 00:48:55,956
[ Coughs ]
603
00:48:56,024 --> 00:48:58,959
[ Leuchter ]
Before I went, I had no idea
of their purpose.
604
00:48:59,027 --> 00:49:01,894
I just knew that
they were concentration camps.
605
00:49:01,963 --> 00:49:07,060
I knew because
I was taught that they had
gas executions there.
606
00:49:07,135 --> 00:49:09,160
But I subsequently
found out...
607
00:49:09,237 --> 00:49:13,503
that the concentration camps
were, in effect,
slave labor camps.
608
00:49:13,574 --> 00:49:18,341
It doesn't make much sense
that they would take an
entire force of slave labor...
609
00:49:18,413 --> 00:49:20,347
and execute them.
610
00:49:20,415 --> 00:49:23,851
You get into a situation
where you start thinking
about what happened,
611
00:49:23,918 --> 00:49:27,354
you look at the facilities,
none of it seems to make
any sense.
612
00:49:29,757 --> 00:49:32,692
If I were to take
any one of the facilities...
613
00:49:32,760 --> 00:49:35,854
and attempt to conduct
a gas execution in them today,
614
00:49:35,930 --> 00:49:41,493
and the facilities
haven't changed at all
since 1942 or 194 1,
615
00:49:41,569 --> 00:49:46,506
then what, in effect, I'd do is,
I'd kill myself and everybody
helping me do the execution.
616
00:49:47,875 --> 00:49:50,309
I certainly don't have
a death wish,
617
00:49:50,378 --> 00:49:53,313
and I don't think
the German S.S.
had a death wish.
618
00:49:53,381 --> 00:49:56,646
If those facilities
could be made competent
for an execution,
619
00:49:56,717 --> 00:49:59,652
I would be the one
that would be able
to do that.
620
00:49:59,720 --> 00:50:03,156
I assure you that nobody could
do that better than I could.
621
00:50:10,031 --> 00:50:12,966
[ Van Pelt ]
Leuchter has said
a number of times...
622
00:50:13,034 --> 00:50:15,730
that the place
wasn't touched.
623
00:50:15,803 --> 00:50:17,998
Just open your eyes.
624
00:50:18,072 --> 00:50:21,007
You realize that
this is utter nonsense.
625
00:50:24,345 --> 00:50:26,540
Virtually every brick,
626
00:50:26,614 --> 00:50:29,981
which was located in 1944
in one place,
627
00:50:30,051 --> 00:50:32,986
has been relocated
to another place.
628
00:50:34,989 --> 00:50:37,924
Where are all the bricks
of the crematoria?
629
00:50:37,992 --> 00:50:40,552
It's an interesting question.
630
00:50:40,628 --> 00:50:43,563
There's some mountain of bricks
in Crematorium Five,
631
00:50:43,631 --> 00:50:46,896
but for the rest
there are no bricks.
632
00:50:46,968 --> 00:50:49,562
I think I know
where they are.
633
00:50:53,608 --> 00:50:59,478
The real places to sample
are the farmhouses to the west
of the crematoria,
634
00:50:59,547 --> 00:51:01,845
the farmhouses
where people are living,
635
00:51:01,916 --> 00:51:05,113
children are playing,
dogs are barking.
636
00:51:05,186 --> 00:51:08,952
These were rebuilt after the war
with bricks of the crematoria.
637
00:51:11,192 --> 00:51:13,956
This site
has been turned inside-out.
638
00:51:14,028 --> 00:51:17,122
What was inside the camp
is now outside the camp.
639
00:51:18,266 --> 00:51:20,700
And inside,
you have a big void.
640
00:51:24,572 --> 00:51:26,506
We're standing at
Krema II...
641
00:51:26,574 --> 00:51:29,270
at one of
the alleged holes...
642
00:51:29,343 --> 00:51:34,280
where the S.S. officers threw in
the hydrogen cyanide material.
643
00:51:36,551 --> 00:51:39,987
As you can see,
it's a rough-cut opening...
644
00:51:41,556 --> 00:51:43,786
with metal
reinforcing rods.
645
00:51:45,393 --> 00:51:48,760
I'm about to descend through
a hole in the roof...
646
00:51:48,829 --> 00:51:51,855
in the gas chamber
at Krema II...
647
00:51:51,933 --> 00:51:55,960
to retrieve samples
from...
648
00:51:56,037 --> 00:51:57,971
below the structure.
649
00:51:58,039 --> 00:52:02,135
I was saying to myself,
"Fred, do you really want
to go down in there?"
650
00:52:02,210 --> 00:52:07,273
It came with the territory,
so I had to go down in the hole.
651
00:52:10,284 --> 00:52:12,218
Excellent.
652
00:52:13,421 --> 00:52:15,355
Excellent.
653
00:52:17,525 --> 00:52:19,459
Can't actually
stand up in here.
654
00:52:19,527 --> 00:52:23,019
Not sure if the whole thing
is gonna come down on me.
655
00:52:29,103 --> 00:52:32,038
[ Man ]
Where are you?
Oh, there you are.
656
00:52:41,282 --> 00:52:45,048
Beautiful.
Got a beautiful
piece of a roof.
657
00:52:47,688 --> 00:52:50,555
I guess you thought--
I guess you're getting me.
658
00:52:50,625 --> 00:52:53,059
A sample from the roof...
659
00:52:55,730 --> 00:52:58,358
that I am now bagging.
660
00:53:00,668 --> 00:53:04,570
Okay? Now I will find
another sample...
661
00:53:04,639 --> 00:53:06,573
of brick...
662
00:53:06,641 --> 00:53:10,941
from the wall we were not able
to get at from the surface,
which is over here.
663
00:53:11,012 --> 00:53:13,981
I am again
going out of view,
664
00:53:14,048 --> 00:53:16,846
and I will see
what I can find.
665
00:53:23,090 --> 00:53:26,582
[ Leuchter ]
It was cold. It was wet.
666
00:53:26,661 --> 00:53:28,959
It was kind of spooky.
667
00:53:30,798 --> 00:53:33,733
It must feel like
the same way somebody feels
when they go into a tomb...
668
00:53:33,801 --> 00:53:36,770
that they've opened after
a couple of thousand years,
669
00:53:36,837 --> 00:53:38,771
and you don't know
what you're gonna see.
670
00:53:38,839 --> 00:53:42,036
I didn't know
if I was gonna see
somebody's skeleton or bones...
671
00:53:42,109 --> 00:53:45,374
or whether or not
there were gonna
be animals in there.
672
00:53:47,848 --> 00:53:50,476
That would not have been
a particularly good place...
673
00:53:50,551 --> 00:53:53,486
to encounter
some kind of a wild animal.
674
00:53:58,125 --> 00:54:02,118
I have a sample
of the concrete...
675
00:54:02,196 --> 00:54:05,290
from the alleged pillar...
676
00:54:05,366 --> 00:54:08,995
that carried
the hydrocyanic acid...
677
00:54:09,070 --> 00:54:11,402
into the chamber.
678
00:54:11,472 --> 00:54:15,203
It would be nice
if I could obtain
a floor sample,
679
00:54:15,276 --> 00:54:19,576
which I will seek...
in the lowest spot.
680
00:54:29,390 --> 00:54:33,588
[ Scraping ]
I am at floor level.
681
00:54:33,661 --> 00:54:36,687
And the floor
is covered with water.
682
00:54:43,704 --> 00:54:47,606
I will obtain
some of the material
from the bottom,
683
00:54:47,675 --> 00:54:50,701
bottom of the--
the sediment
from the bottom...
684
00:54:50,778 --> 00:54:54,578
which should contain
residual cyanate.
685
00:55:07,728 --> 00:55:12,893
Okay, there not being
much more I can do down here,
I will ascend to the surface.
686
00:55:21,409 --> 00:55:23,343
Aah !
687
00:55:26,680 --> 00:55:29,114
[ Van Pelt ]
Okay, let's go
slightly back.
688
00:55:29,183 --> 00:55:31,617
[ Audio Rewinding ]
689
00:55:43,097 --> 00:55:46,794
So Krema Tomb II was
the most lethal building
at Auschwitz.
690
00:55:49,437 --> 00:55:54,500
In the 2,500 square feet
of this one room,
691
00:55:54,575 --> 00:55:59,012
more people lost their life
than in any other place
on this planet.
692
00:55:59,079 --> 00:56:03,140
Five hundred thousand people
were killed.
693
00:56:04,952 --> 00:56:07,887
If you would draw a map
of human suffering,
694
00:56:07,955 --> 00:56:11,686
if you create the geography
of atrocity,
695
00:56:11,759 --> 00:56:14,990
this would be
the absolute center.
696
00:56:28,209 --> 00:56:32,475
Every year remains
of human beings are found.
697
00:56:32,546 --> 00:56:36,346
Bones, teeth.
698
00:56:36,417 --> 00:56:38,681
The earth doesn't rest.
699
00:56:58,979 --> 00:57:02,415
[ Leuchter ]
What happened
in all of these facilities...
700
00:57:02,482 --> 00:57:05,280
is undoubtedly a mystery.
701
00:57:05,352 --> 00:57:09,686
Whether or not
these facilities
were used for gas execution--
702
00:57:09,756 --> 00:57:12,748
That's not a mystery.
I don't believe they were.
703
00:57:12,826 --> 00:57:15,488
Because in my best
engineering opinion,
704
00:57:15,562 --> 00:57:17,689
I don't think
they could've been.
705
00:57:25,972 --> 00:57:28,406
It's a tough job...
706
00:57:28,475 --> 00:57:33,105
to execute several
hundred people at once.
707
00:57:34,547 --> 00:57:37,277
We have a hard job
executing one man.
708
00:57:37,350 --> 00:57:41,150
I think it would be easier
to shoot them or hang them.
709
00:57:43,723 --> 00:57:48,854
I probably could do
a reasonably good job by
building a multiple gallows...
710
00:57:48,928 --> 00:57:51,795
and hanging 50 people
at once.
711
00:57:51,865 --> 00:57:54,629
I probably could execute
more people...
712
00:57:54,701 --> 00:57:57,329
within a shorter time frame.
713
00:57:57,404 --> 00:57:59,929
Why didn't they
just shoot them?
714
00:58:00,006 --> 00:58:03,840
Bullets would've been cheaper
than doing this.
715
00:58:06,012 --> 00:58:08,845
Why didn't they
just blow them up?
716
00:58:08,915 --> 00:58:12,749
Why didn't they take them
down into a mine
and seal the mine off?
717
00:58:14,988 --> 00:58:19,015
Maybe we're gonna find
an execution chamber
under Berlin...
718
00:58:19,092 --> 00:58:23,028
with 3,000 electric chairs
lined up.
719
00:58:25,298 --> 00:58:27,232
I don't know.
720
00:58:29,102 --> 00:58:31,536
It just doesn't seem
to make any sense.
721
00:58:46,986 --> 00:58:49,420
I had a couple
of heavy bags of samples,
722
00:58:49,489 --> 00:58:52,253
which we mixed
with our dirty linen,
723
00:58:52,325 --> 00:58:54,259
dirty underwear
and all sorts of things...
724
00:58:54,327 --> 00:58:57,854
because we figured the customs
people would not be willing
to go through our dirty laundry.
725
00:59:02,168 --> 00:59:04,432
In the event
we got caught,
726
00:59:04,504 --> 00:59:06,938
we did have
a contingency plan.
727
00:59:07,006 --> 00:59:11,773
I had maps of Austria,
Czechoslovakia and East Germany.
728
00:59:11,845 --> 00:59:15,611
And we would have made
some kind of a ground flight
across one of those countries...
729
00:59:15,682 --> 00:59:18,845
to either get to Austria
or to West Germany.
730
00:59:20,220 --> 00:59:22,415
We would've just
essentially taken off...
731
00:59:22,489 --> 00:59:26,721
and hope we made it
to a border before somebody
figured out what was going on.
732
00:59:28,428 --> 00:59:31,022
They probably wouldn't
have chased me immediately...
733
00:59:31,097 --> 00:59:33,224
because I would've,
from a practical standpoint,
734
00:59:33,299 --> 00:59:37,702
just been a vandal
chiseling holes
in their wall.
735
00:59:41,007 --> 00:59:46,070
I was never so relieved
when we passed through the
West German passport control.
736
00:59:46,146 --> 00:59:48,114
Because at least
I hadn't chiseled...
737
00:59:48,181 --> 00:59:52,083
at any of the West Germans'
national shrines.
738
00:59:56,156 --> 01:00:00,650
All of the forensic samples
that I took were brought back
to the United States...
739
01:00:00,727 --> 01:00:04,561
and sent to a lab
here in Massachusetts
that was highly recommended.
740
01:00:04,631 --> 01:00:08,931
They were not told
what the samples were
or where they came from.
741
01:00:09,002 --> 01:00:11,800
They were told
that they were materials...
742
01:00:11,871 --> 01:00:14,271
that would be involved
in a court case...
743
01:00:14,340 --> 01:00:16,934
relative
to an industrial accident...
744
01:00:17,010 --> 01:00:19,103
and they should be prepared
to testify...
745
01:00:19,179 --> 01:00:21,977
and they should certify
all of the samples.
746
01:00:23,383 --> 01:00:25,647
All of their tests
came back.
747
01:00:25,718 --> 01:00:27,652
And they did
several types of tests...
748
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:31,588
to determine whether or not
there was any hydrogen cyanide.
749
01:00:31,658 --> 01:00:34,149
They were negative.
750
01:00:34,227 --> 01:00:37,060
These facilities
never saw any gas.
751
01:00:40,066 --> 01:00:44,435
For virtually 40-odd years
I believed unquestionably
that there were gas chambers...
752
01:00:44,504 --> 01:00:46,495
at these
concentration camps.
753
01:00:46,573 --> 01:00:50,100
When I found that there weren't,
my next question is,
what do I do about it?
754
01:00:56,549 --> 01:01:00,849
I completed my report,
and I testified at the trial.
755
01:01:10,430 --> 01:01:14,958
The judge would not accept
the report into evidence.
756
01:01:15,034 --> 01:01:20,904
So what the judge did is,
he accepted the report
as an informational exhibit...
757
01:01:20,974 --> 01:01:23,568
as opposed
to an evidentiary exhibit.
758
01:01:23,643 --> 01:01:27,409
And every bit
of the information
in that report...
759
01:01:27,480 --> 01:01:32,144
had to be testified
under oath into the record.
760
01:01:42,979 --> 01:01:45,504
My publishing imprint
in England,
Focal Point Publications,
761
01:01:45,581 --> 01:01:47,515
we published
The Leuchter Report.
762
01:01:58,828 --> 01:02:01,422
I can't remember
where I first met him.
763
01:02:01,497 --> 01:02:03,761
He's not the kind of person
who would strike you.
764
01:02:03,833 --> 01:02:06,267
He's a mouse of a man.
765
01:02:07,970 --> 01:02:12,373
He's also a man
who is totally honest
and totally innocent,
766
01:02:12,441 --> 01:02:15,740
innocent in the sense
of being a simpleton.
767
01:02:15,811 --> 01:02:19,804
He went into this
as a glorious adventure.
768
01:02:19,882 --> 01:02:23,978
He was taken out of oblivion.
He was given this task
to perform.
769
01:02:24,053 --> 01:02:27,216
He traveled abroad,
probably for the first time
in his life, to Poland.
770
01:02:27,289 --> 01:02:30,884
He came back with these
earth-shattering results.
771
01:02:30,960 --> 01:02:33,485
The big point.:
772
01:02:33,562 --> 01:02:37,123
there is no significant
residue of cyanide
in the brickwork.
773
01:02:38,434 --> 01:02:40,368
That's what converted me.
774
01:02:40,436 --> 01:02:44,065
When I read that in the report
in the courtroom in Toronto,
775
01:02:44,140 --> 01:02:47,166
I became
a hard-core disbeliever.
776
01:02:50,579 --> 01:02:54,879
[ Z�ndel ]
On April 20, 1988,
777
01:02:54,950 --> 01:02:57,248
Adolf Hitler's birthday,
778
01:02:59,255 --> 01:03:04,716
Fred Leuchter, not knowing
he's gonna be delivering a
birthday present to the f�hrer,
779
01:03:04,794 --> 01:03:07,854
steps into
the witness box in Toronto.
780
01:03:07,930 --> 01:03:12,390
Devastation
reigns all around.
781
01:03:14,270 --> 01:03:16,795
The prosecution
and the judge...
782
01:03:16,872 --> 01:03:20,069
were in a visible
state of panic.
783
01:03:21,444 --> 01:03:24,311
I could see
the facial muscles
working in the judge.
784
01:03:24,380 --> 01:03:27,645
I could see the pale face
of the prosecutor.
785
01:03:27,717 --> 01:03:31,346
This was history-making.
That was clear
to everybody present.
786
01:03:31,420 --> 01:03:34,150
They cross-examined Fred.
787
01:03:34,223 --> 01:03:36,384
Immediately, of course,
they zeroed in...
788
01:03:36,459 --> 01:03:42,056
on his soft or inadequate
academic credentials
for what he was doing.
789
01:03:42,131 --> 01:03:42,631
The judge made a decision
that could have been
very dangerous to us...
790
01:03:42,631 --> 01:03:46,499
The judge made a decision
that could have been
very dangerous to us...
791
01:03:46,569 --> 01:03:51,506
in that he said,
"The samples by themselves
are worthless,
792
01:03:51,574 --> 01:03:56,773
unless the defense
can bring the man
who did the testing. "
793
01:03:56,846 --> 01:04:00,338
[ Man ]
I went up to Toronto
on very short notice,
794
01:04:00,416 --> 01:04:05,115
not knowing any
of the background at all
of what was going on.
795
01:04:05,187 --> 01:04:07,121
They wanted somebody
from the laboratory to say,
796
01:04:07,189 --> 01:04:12,889
"Yes, we analyzed these samples.
Yes, we produced this report
on the analysis."
797
01:04:12,962 --> 01:04:15,624
And that's
what I was there to do.
798
01:04:23,139 --> 01:04:26,734
I don't think
the Leuchter results
have any meaning.
799
01:04:28,644 --> 01:04:31,238
There's nothing
in any of our data...
800
01:04:31,313 --> 01:04:35,249
that says those surfaces
were exposed or not.
801
01:04:38,053 --> 01:04:41,750
Even after I got off the stand,
I didn't know where
the samples came from.
802
01:04:43,526 --> 01:04:46,256
I didn't know
which samples were which.
803
01:04:46,328 --> 01:04:50,594
And it was only at lunch
that I found out really
what the case involved.
804
01:04:52,568 --> 01:04:55,196
Hindsight being 20-20,
805
01:04:55,271 --> 01:05:00,208
the test was not
the correct one to have
been used for the analysis.
806
01:05:03,479 --> 01:05:06,448
He presented us
with rock samples...
807
01:05:06,515 --> 01:05:11,418
anywhere from
the size of your thumb up to
half the size of your fist.
808
01:05:11,487 --> 01:05:13,421
We broke 'em up
with a hammer...
809
01:05:13,489 --> 01:05:16,856
so that we could get
a sub-sample,
810
01:05:16,926 --> 01:05:19,759
placed it in a flask,
811
01:05:19,829 --> 01:05:23,390
add concentrated
sulfuric acid.
812
01:05:23,465 --> 01:05:26,764
And it undergoes
a reaction.
813
01:05:26,836 --> 01:05:30,829
It produces
a red-colored solution.
814
01:05:30,906 --> 01:05:34,171
It is the intensity
of this red color...
815
01:05:34,243 --> 01:05:38,043
that we can relate
with cyanide concentration.
816
01:05:45,821 --> 01:05:48,722
And you have to look
at what happens to cyanide...
817
01:05:48,791 --> 01:05:52,227
when it reacts with a wall.
818
01:05:52,294 --> 01:05:56,390
Where does it go?
How far does it go?
819
01:05:58,100 --> 01:06:01,001
Cyanide
is a surface reaction.
820
01:06:01,070 --> 01:06:05,803
It's probably
not going to penetrate
more than ten microns.
821
01:06:05,875 --> 01:06:09,072
Human hair's
a hundred microns in diameter.
822
01:06:10,779 --> 01:06:13,213
Crush this sample up.
823
01:06:13,282 --> 01:06:16,149
I have just diluted
that sample...
824
01:06:16,218 --> 01:06:20,154
ten thousand,
a hundred thousand times.
825
01:06:22,324 --> 01:06:26,761
If you're gonna go look for it,
you're gonna look
on the surface only.
826
01:06:26,829 --> 01:06:29,525
There's no reason
to go deep...
827
01:06:29,598 --> 01:06:33,329
because it's not going
to be there.
828
01:06:35,838 --> 01:06:41,071
Which was the exposed surface?
I didn't even have any idea.
829
01:06:41,143 --> 01:06:45,273
That's like analyzing
paint on the wall.
830
01:06:45,347 --> 01:06:50,080
By analyzing,
they timber this behind it.
831
01:06:50,152 --> 01:06:53,679
If they go in
with blinders on,
832
01:06:53,756 --> 01:06:57,419
they will see
what they want to see.
833
01:06:58,994 --> 01:07:02,157
What was he really
trying to do?
834
01:07:02,231 --> 01:07:04,722
What was he trying to prove?
835
01:07:10,339 --> 01:07:12,773
[ Woman Reporter ]
The jury said
Ernst Z�ndel is guilty...
836
01:07:12,841 --> 01:07:15,969
of publishing news
he knew to be false
about the Holocaust.
837
01:07:16,044 --> 01:07:18,706
In spite of that,
when he emerged from
the courtroom this afternoon,
838
01:07:18,780 --> 01:07:21,180
Z�ndel still maintained
the Holocaust was a hoax.
839
01:07:21,249 --> 01:07:23,843
No, this is just one
more hurdle to overcome.
840
01:07:23,919 --> 01:07:28,754
And I have always
looked upon boulders
in the path of my life...
841
01:07:28,824 --> 01:07:31,349
not as stumbling blocks
but as stepping-stones.
842
01:07:38,533 --> 01:07:42,663
[ Leuchter ]
On my return from Canada,
843
01:07:42,738 --> 01:07:47,539
I went about
my work and business
as I normally did.
844
01:07:52,147 --> 01:07:54,445
And I began to notice...
845
01:07:54,516 --> 01:07:57,451
that not as many
prison officials
were talking with me.
846
01:07:59,521 --> 01:08:02,581
Orders weren't coming in
as expected.
847
01:08:05,260 --> 01:08:08,354
The wardens and commissioners
were receiving
very heavy pressure...
848
01:08:08,430 --> 01:08:10,796
from Jewish groups.
849
01:08:18,507 --> 01:08:22,136
[ Woman ]
There is no slippery slope
for Mr. Fred Leuchter.
850
01:08:22,210 --> 01:08:26,704
The man...
is an anti-Semite.
851
01:08:35,157 --> 01:08:39,617
[ Shapiro ] There are
hatemongers in this country,
and he's one of them.
852
01:08:39,694 --> 01:08:44,131
He handed over
his entire life
and reputation...
853
01:08:44,199 --> 01:08:47,600
to the cause
of spreading hatred.
854
01:08:47,669 --> 01:08:51,503
He didn't stop.
He kept on going.
855
01:08:51,573 --> 01:08:53,973
He could've gotten out
any time.
856
01:08:56,044 --> 01:08:59,810
What kind of man is he?
And why is he doing this?
857
01:08:59,881 --> 01:09:03,510
And what kind of reflection
is this upon our community?
858
01:09:12,294 --> 01:09:15,286
[ Tabasky ]
To me, he looks like
he's almost under a spell,
859
01:09:15,363 --> 01:09:17,297
and I think he is.
860
01:09:17,365 --> 01:09:19,356
He's under his own spell.
861
01:09:19,434 --> 01:09:22,562
He truly believed...
862
01:09:22,637 --> 01:09:25,538
what he was doing
was right.
863
01:09:27,409 --> 01:09:31,140
[ Leuchter ]
I testified in Canada
for two reasons.
864
01:09:31,213 --> 01:09:35,912
First, the trial was
an issue of freedom of speech...
865
01:09:35,984 --> 01:09:38,384
and freedom of belief.
866
01:09:39,955 --> 01:09:44,551
As an American,
one who supports
the Bill of Rights,
867
01:09:44,626 --> 01:09:49,427
I believe that Mr. Z�ndel
has the right to believe
and say what he chooses.
868
01:09:49,498 --> 01:09:52,661
I have this right
in the United States.
869
01:09:52,734 --> 01:09:54,725
Secondly,
870
01:09:54,803 --> 01:09:57,636
Mr. Z�ndel was not on trial
for a misdemeanor.
871
01:09:57,706 --> 01:09:59,765
This was a major felony.
872
01:09:59,841 --> 01:10:03,937
He could've faced
up to 25 years in prison...
873
01:10:04,012 --> 01:10:08,540
for printing a document
stating that there were
no gas chambers at Auschwitz.
874
01:10:08,617 --> 01:10:13,111
I believe that any man,
no matter what he's done,
875
01:10:13,188 --> 01:10:15,315
has a right
to a fair trial...
876
01:10:15,390 --> 01:10:19,417
and the best
possible defense
that he can muster.
877
01:10:19,494 --> 01:10:25,091
l, unfortunately, was
the only expert in the world
who could provide that defense.
878
01:10:25,167 --> 01:10:27,101
There was no one else.
879
01:10:32,841 --> 01:10:35,469
[ Shapiro ]
I don't think he's naive.
880
01:10:35,544 --> 01:10:40,038
I think he was empowered
by being part of this group.
881
01:10:40,115 --> 01:10:43,084
Who is this guy ?
882
01:10:43,151 --> 01:10:48,748
The bottom line here is,
you got a guy who basically
made a deal with the devil.
883
01:10:54,262 --> 01:10:57,197
[ Z�ndel ]
Fred Leuchter is a hero.
884
01:10:57,265 --> 01:11:02,259
Not every generation
gets a George Washington
or a Thomas Jefferson.
885
01:11:02,337 --> 01:11:05,932
Our generation's heroes
maybe are more humble.
886
01:11:12,581 --> 01:11:17,280
[ Tabasky ]
Fred got involved in this
and wanted to play this game.
887
01:11:17,352 --> 01:11:21,254
And I think he thought
it was a game at first.
I really believe he did.
888
01:11:21,323 --> 01:11:24,190
How nice to fly to Canada,
889
01:11:24,259 --> 01:11:27,160
to go to Poland,
890
01:11:27,229 --> 01:11:29,356
get paid a lot of money...
891
01:11:29,431 --> 01:11:34,164
and come back
and have a lot of attention...
892
01:11:34,236 --> 01:11:36,170
brought to him.
893
01:11:37,639 --> 01:11:39,732
I think he really dug it.
894
01:11:39,808 --> 01:11:43,005
I think that
he really thought
that that was great.
895
01:11:43,078 --> 01:11:45,672
I pity him.
896
01:11:49,551 --> 01:11:51,712
[ Van Pelt ]
In April 1988,
897
01:11:51,786 --> 01:11:55,153
there was still opportunity
for Fred to redeem himself,
898
01:11:55,223 --> 01:11:58,021
to apologize.
899
01:11:58,093 --> 01:12:01,824
To apologize for having
gone down in that hole.
900
01:12:01,896 --> 01:12:06,799
But he chose not
to consider the evidence...
901
01:12:06,868 --> 01:12:09,598
of his own foolishness.
902
01:12:28,356 --> 01:12:32,486
Holocaust denial
is a story about vanity.
903
01:12:34,562 --> 01:12:36,962
It's a way...
904
01:12:37,032 --> 01:12:40,160
to get in the limelight,
to be noticed,
905
01:12:42,037 --> 01:12:43,902
to be someone.
906
01:12:46,141 --> 01:12:48,200
Maybe to be loved.
907
01:12:48,276 --> 01:12:53,612
I have a sympathy to Fred
who was lost in Auschwitz,
because I think he's lost.
908
01:12:53,682 --> 01:12:58,176
But not anymore
with the Fred who appears
at these conferences.
909
01:13:05,836 --> 01:13:09,670
You're ignored.
You're despised
by many people.
910
01:13:09,740 --> 01:13:14,234
And then there is a home,
and the home is the Institute
for Historical Review.
911
01:13:14,312 --> 01:13:16,610
You make new friends.
912
01:13:16,681 --> 01:13:19,980
Go to one conference,
then you go to
the second one...
913
01:13:20,051 --> 01:13:22,485
and a third and a fourth.
914
01:13:22,553 --> 01:13:27,354
And it's nice to get up
and stand behind a lectern
and have people applaud.
915
01:13:27,425 --> 01:13:32,328
They compare your logic
with that of any
university professor.
916
01:13:32,396 --> 01:13:36,230
Maybe it's about choosing
the right friends.
917
01:13:36,300 --> 01:13:41,829
Please welcome a man
whose work is a mighty blow
for historical understanding.
918
01:13:41,906 --> 01:13:44,397
Mr. Fred Leuchter.
[ Applause ]
919
01:13:46,143 --> 01:13:50,580
My paper is entitled,
The Leuchter Report,
the How and the Why.
920
01:13:52,617 --> 01:13:58,522
In 1988-- 1988 was
a very informative and
likewise disturbing year for me.
921
01:13:58,589 --> 01:14:02,616
I was appalled to learn
that much of what
I was taught in school...
922
01:14:02,693 --> 01:14:05,992
about 20th century history
and World War II...
923
01:14:06,063 --> 01:14:08,327
was a myth,
if not a lie.
924
01:14:08,399 --> 01:14:12,597
I was first amazed
then annoyed
and then aware...
925
01:14:12,670 --> 01:14:14,934
that the myth of
the Holocaust was dead.
926
01:14:19,310 --> 01:14:23,906
[ Shapiro ]
Fred Leuchter
put blinders on himself.
927
01:14:23,981 --> 01:14:29,715
He sat through
all of those speeches and
neo-Nazi rallies in Europe...
928
01:14:29,787 --> 01:14:32,688
as he heard Jews vilified.
929
01:14:35,993 --> 01:14:39,485
Whether he belonged
to a group beforehand...
930
01:14:39,563 --> 01:14:42,532
has no relevance.
931
01:14:42,600 --> 01:14:46,866
He joined and he took part
for many, many years.
932
01:14:46,937 --> 01:14:50,839
I think Fred Leuchter,
when he was called upon,
933
01:14:50,908 --> 01:14:52,842
became one of them.
934
01:14:52,910 --> 01:14:56,141
[ Leuchter ]
I did this, but because
of what I have seen,
935
01:14:56,213 --> 01:15:00,377
I have a compelling urge
and perhaps a responsibility...
936
01:15:00,451 --> 01:15:03,284
to countless generations
who come after me,
937
01:15:03,354 --> 01:15:05,549
a responsibility
to the truth.
938
01:15:05,623 --> 01:15:08,990
[ Man ]
Hear, hear !
[ Applause ]
939
01:15:15,266 --> 01:15:17,530
I thank you,
ladies and gentlemen.
940
01:15:17,601 --> 01:15:20,627
I hope I've lived up
to your expectations.
941
01:15:20,705 --> 01:15:23,139
[ Applause ]
And I will entertain
any questions.
942
01:15:23,207 --> 01:15:26,142
[ Applause Continues ]
943
01:15:30,047 --> 01:15:34,347
[ Z�ndel ]
The Leuchter Report-- about
500,000 circulated in Germany.
944
01:15:36,020 --> 01:15:38,284
There have been
translations.
945
01:15:38,355 --> 01:15:41,153
A Leuchter edition
appeared in Russian.
946
01:15:41,225 --> 01:15:43,716
In Latvia, in Hungary,
947
01:15:43,794 --> 01:15:46,319
in Spanish.
948
01:15:46,397 --> 01:15:50,026
The Leuchter Report
is out there
in dozens of languages.
949
01:15:50,101 --> 01:15:53,935
and, I would dare say,
in millions of copies.
950
01:15:54,004 --> 01:15:56,871
We will not go down
in history...
951
01:15:56,941 --> 01:15:59,933
as being a nation
of genocidal maniacs.
952
01:16:00,010 --> 01:16:03,343
We will not.
953
01:16:03,414 --> 01:16:06,406
We can,
with historical truth,
954
01:16:06,484 --> 01:16:09,317
detoxify a poison planet.
955
01:16:13,457 --> 01:16:15,391
Holocaust Survivors
and Friends...
956
01:16:15,459 --> 01:16:18,758
has asked
the Massachusetts Board
of Registration of Engineers...
957
01:16:18,829 --> 01:16:21,821
to investigate
whether Leuchter
is properly credentialed.
958
01:16:21,899 --> 01:16:24,493
Last week the board's
chief investigator told us...
959
01:16:24,568 --> 01:16:28,060
that Leuchter
is not certified as
an engineer in Massachusetts.
960
01:16:28,139 --> 01:16:30,972
And if he is working
or soliciting business here,
961
01:16:31,041 --> 01:16:33,509
he could be liable
for criminal charges.
962
01:16:36,080 --> 01:16:39,948
[ Leuchter ]
I have no question
that it's a conspiracy.
963
01:16:40,017 --> 01:16:44,716
They even pressured
the engineering board
here in Massachusetts...
964
01:16:44,789 --> 01:16:46,723
into bringing
a criminal complaint
against me...
965
01:16:46,791 --> 01:16:49,919
for practicing engineering
without being registered.
966
01:16:52,129 --> 01:16:57,567
Less than ten percent
of the engineers in the state
are licensed or registered.
967
01:16:57,635 --> 01:17:02,004
But I'm the only one
that was ever prosecuted for
practicing without a license.
968
01:17:06,310 --> 01:17:09,177
Did Christ have a diploma
in Christianity?
969
01:17:09,246 --> 01:17:11,441
Did Marx have a diploma
in Marxism?
970
01:17:11,515 --> 01:17:13,949
Did Adolf Hitler
have a diploma
in national socialism?
971
01:17:14,018 --> 01:17:15,952
No, they did not.
972
01:17:16,020 --> 01:17:18,614
But they knew
one hell of a lot...
973
01:17:18,689 --> 01:17:21,556
about their field.
974
01:17:23,127 --> 01:17:27,188
[ Leuchter ]
I have a half of
a lethal injection machine...
975
01:17:27,264 --> 01:17:30,722
which belongs
to the State of Delaware.
976
01:17:30,801 --> 01:17:34,999
We had a contract to repair
the lethal injection machine...
977
01:17:35,072 --> 01:17:40,271
and to repair their gallows
and write their protocol
for hanging.
978
01:17:40,344 --> 01:17:44,303
I was told that
the deputy attorney general,
Fred Silverman,
979
01:17:44,381 --> 01:17:47,009
would not allow me
to complete the contract.
980
01:17:47,084 --> 01:17:49,018
A conference call
was set up...
981
01:17:49,086 --> 01:17:51,418
between corrections officials
and the deputy
attorney general...
982
01:17:51,488 --> 01:17:54,423
and several
other attorney generals
whom I had worked with...
983
01:17:54,491 --> 01:17:57,085
in terms of the development
of the hanging procedure.
984
01:17:57,161 --> 01:18:02,360
And Fred Silverman told me that
I would not be allowed to deal
with the State of Delaware...
985
01:18:02,433 --> 01:18:04,901
because
I testified in Canada.
986
01:18:04,969 --> 01:18:07,529
They did not pay me...
987
01:18:07,605 --> 01:18:12,235
for the $7,000 work
that I put into the repair
of the machine.
988
01:18:12,309 --> 01:18:15,767
I lost all
of the contract work
for the gallows.
989
01:18:15,846 --> 01:18:19,407
And the State
has effectively said,
990
01:18:19,483 --> 01:18:22,418
"Take the half
of the machine
that you've got...
991
01:18:22,486 --> 01:18:24,954
and stick it someplace."
992
01:18:27,825 --> 01:18:31,659
I put an ad
in the Want Advertiser.
993
01:18:31,729 --> 01:18:36,598
The second week
that the ad was running,
someone saw the ad.
994
01:18:36,667 --> 01:18:39,830
Determined
that the instrument
shouldn't be sold...
995
01:18:39,904 --> 01:18:42,807
because I was the one
that was selling it.
996
01:18:42,941 --> 01:18:45,375
Subsequently,
there was write-ups...
997
01:18:45,443 --> 01:18:48,173
in both major
Boston newspapers...
998
01:18:48,246 --> 01:18:51,682
and pressure was again
applied to the district
attorney's office...
999
01:18:51,749 --> 01:18:53,683
and the attorney general's
office...
1000
01:18:53,751 --> 01:18:56,948
to prosecute me
for selling the machine.
1001
01:18:57,021 --> 01:18:59,319
And it was necessary
for the attorney general's
office...
1002
01:18:59,390 --> 01:19:02,484
to explain in the newspaper
that it is not illegal...
1003
01:19:02,560 --> 01:19:06,997
to sell a lethal injection
machine to anybody.
1004
01:19:07,065 --> 01:19:11,001
Delaware turned out
to be a major problem,
but I still have their machine.
1005
01:19:11,069 --> 01:19:16,405
And anybody who's interested in
buying half a lethal injection
machine can contact me,
1006
01:19:16,474 --> 01:19:20,342
and it's available
for the cost
of the repairs.
1007
01:19:23,214 --> 01:19:26,945
[ Carol ]
I went a lot of places that
I probably wouldn't have gone.
1008
01:19:27,018 --> 01:19:30,181
But basically,
it was a nightmare.
1009
01:19:31,756 --> 01:19:34,884
He had a job offer
from California.
1010
01:19:34,959 --> 01:19:37,951
He thought
I was going with him.
1011
01:19:38,029 --> 01:19:41,692
I told him that
he could give his speeches,
he could do whatever he wanted,
1012
01:19:41,766 --> 01:19:44,257
but I would not be there.
1013
01:19:44,335 --> 01:19:46,860
And I told him
I went to a lawyer.
1014
01:19:46,938 --> 01:19:51,807
And I explained to him that yes,
I could get a divorce and yes,
you have to leave here.
1015
01:19:51,876 --> 01:19:54,743
I don't want you here.
1016
01:19:54,812 --> 01:20:00,148
And he hemmed and hawed
and whatever, but he left,
like, a week later.
1017
01:20:04,422 --> 01:20:07,255
When he left,
he took his phone.
1018
01:20:07,325 --> 01:20:10,123
The other phone
was being shut off.
1019
01:20:10,194 --> 01:20:15,359
The gas and electric
was being shut off.
And that was how he left.
1020
01:20:17,435 --> 01:20:22,668
If I never saw him again,
that'd be fine.
1021
01:20:31,282 --> 01:20:34,581
[ Leuchter ]
The guy that brought me
out there didn't have any money.
1022
01:20:34,652 --> 01:20:38,144
He wound up
with everybody suing him
and all kinds of stuff.
1023
01:20:38,222 --> 01:20:41,316
So I said, "Well,
I'm not getting anywhere. "
1024
01:20:41,392 --> 01:20:44,919
I was locked out
of my hotel room three times.
1025
01:20:44,996 --> 01:20:49,126
It's kind of tough when they
take your car away and they
drop you off on the freeway.
1026
01:20:49,200 --> 01:20:52,328
You're looking around trying
to figure out how the hell
you get back to your apartment.
1027
01:20:52,403 --> 01:20:57,500
Then you find you got this
super-size doorknob on your knob
so you can't get the key in,
1028
01:20:57,575 --> 01:21:00,009
and all your clothes
and razor's inside.
1029
01:21:04,749 --> 01:21:07,912
I had my car taken away from me
while I was driving it
on the freeway.
1030
01:21:07,985 --> 01:21:10,920
I had another car taken away
in a garage.
1031
01:21:13,558 --> 01:21:17,517
These are rental cars
that had been assigned to me.
1032
01:21:19,597 --> 01:21:24,034
It's pretty tough when
you're out in the middle
of nowhere all by yourself.
1033
01:21:32,877 --> 01:21:35,311
[ Irving ]
He's been destroyed
as a human being.
1034
01:21:35,379 --> 01:21:38,075
He's had
his marriage destroyed.
He's had his life destroyed.
1035
01:21:38,149 --> 01:21:42,643
I frankly am surprised
he didn't go and commit suicide,
jump under a train.
1036
01:21:42,720 --> 01:21:46,850
He saw everything
he had built up in his own
quiet, humble way destroyed...
1037
01:21:46,924 --> 01:21:50,325
by these people
he had never met,
whom he had offended.
1038
01:21:52,196 --> 01:21:54,960
All he did was
take the bucket and spade
and go over to Auschwitz...
1039
01:21:55,032 --> 01:21:56,966
and come back
with the samples.
1040
01:21:57,034 --> 01:22:00,231
And that was an act
of criminal simplicity.
1041
01:22:02,740 --> 01:22:06,676
He had no idea
of what he was blundering into.
1042
01:22:10,414 --> 01:22:14,043
He wasn't putting
his name on the line
because he had no name.
1043
01:22:14,118 --> 01:22:17,679
He came from nowhere,
and he went back to nowhere.
1044
01:22:29,600 --> 01:22:32,433
[ Leuchter ]
Of course I'm not
an anti-Semite.
1045
01:22:33,905 --> 01:22:36,465
I have a lot of friends
that are Jewish.
1046
01:22:38,976 --> 01:22:43,379
I've lost Jewish friends, too,
because of what's happened.
1047
01:22:43,447 --> 01:22:47,315
I bear no ill will
to any Jews anyplace,
1048
01:22:47,385 --> 01:22:50,013
whether they're
in the United States
or abroad.
1049
01:22:50,087 --> 01:22:54,615
I bear a great deal of ill will
to those people that have come
after me,
1050
01:22:54,692 --> 01:22:57,252
those people who have
persecuted and prosecuted me.
1051
01:22:57,328 --> 01:23:00,126
But that's got nothing
to do with them being Jewish.
1052
01:23:00,198 --> 01:23:03,133
That only has to do
with the fact that
they've been interfering...
1053
01:23:03,201 --> 01:23:09,003
with my right to live, think,
breathe and earn a living.
1054
01:23:10,408 --> 01:23:12,968
As far as being
a revisionist--
1055
01:23:13,044 --> 01:23:17,310
At this point, I'm not
an official revisionist,
1056
01:23:17,381 --> 01:23:20,179
but I guess
I'm a reluctant revisionist.
1057
01:23:21,586 --> 01:23:24,453
If my belief that there
were no gas chambers...
1058
01:23:24,522 --> 01:23:26,547
at Auschwitz,
Birkenau and Majdanek...
1059
01:23:26,624 --> 01:23:29,787
makes me a revisionist,
then so be it.
1060
01:23:31,329 --> 01:23:35,766
They've expressed
their unquestioned intent
of destroying me...
1061
01:23:35,833 --> 01:23:38,427
simply because
I testified in Canada,
1062
01:23:38,502 --> 01:23:43,201
not because I have
any other affiliation with
any anti-Semitic organization,
1063
01:23:43,274 --> 01:23:47,711
not because I'm affiliated
with any Nazi or neo-Nazi
organization.
1064
01:23:47,778 --> 01:23:51,976
I have no work.
I haven't sold a piece of
equipment in almost three years.
1065
01:23:52,049 --> 01:23:55,212
And I have no idea
if this situation
is gonna change.
1066
01:24:25,449 --> 01:24:28,350
[ Man ]
Have you ever thought
that you might be wrong?
1067
01:24:28,419 --> 01:24:33,652
Or do you think that
you could make a mistake?
No, I'm past that.
1068
01:24:33,724 --> 01:24:39,128
When I attempted to turn
those facilities into
gas execution facilities...
1069
01:24:39,196 --> 01:24:41,289
and was unable to,
1070
01:24:41,365 --> 01:24:44,926
I made a decision
at that point
that I wasn't wrong.
1071
01:24:45,002 --> 01:24:48,096
And perhaps
that's why I did it.
1072
01:24:48,172 --> 01:24:50,606
At least
it cleared my mind.
1073
01:24:50,675 --> 01:24:53,508
So I know that
I left no stone unturned.
1074
01:24:53,577 --> 01:24:56,808
I did
everything possible...
1075
01:24:56,881 --> 01:25:02,376
to substantiate and prove the
existence of the gas chambers,
and I was unable to.
1076
01:25:57,234 --> 01:25:59,702
In 1957,
1077
01:25:59,770 --> 01:26:04,366
I actually had the opportunity
for the first time
to sit in the chair.
1078
01:26:06,009 --> 01:26:08,273
There's a legend
that goes with the chair...
1079
01:26:08,345 --> 01:26:11,940
relative to prison personnel
and their families.
1080
01:26:12,015 --> 01:26:14,381
There was, um,
a youngster,
1081
01:26:14,451 --> 01:26:17,386
much the same age as I was
when I sat in the chair,
1082
01:26:17,454 --> 01:26:19,718
whose father was a guard
at the institution,
1083
01:26:19,790 --> 01:26:22,725
who toured the institution
and who sat
in the electric chair.
1084
01:26:27,364 --> 01:26:32,597
Some ten or twelve years later,
he was executed
in that same chair...
1085
01:26:32,669 --> 01:26:35,900
for the commission of a murder
during an armed robbery.
1086
01:26:44,615 --> 01:26:46,879
And so the legend grew...
1087
01:26:46,950 --> 01:26:52,354
that prison officials
shouldn't allow their children
to sit in the electric chair.
1088
01:26:56,894 --> 01:27:01,058
I kind of sat in the chair
waiting for something to happen.
1089
01:27:01,131 --> 01:27:03,099
But some 20 years later,
1090
01:27:03,167 --> 01:27:05,635
I wound up making
execution equipment,
1091
01:27:05,702 --> 01:27:09,695
instead of being the person
that the execution equipment
was used on.
1092
01:27:09,773 --> 01:27:12,333
So, maybe the legend
got turned around,
1093
01:27:12,409 --> 01:27:14,434
and maybe we created
a new legend,
1094
01:27:14,511 --> 01:27:17,412
and some good came
out of it after all.
95460
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