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Going live in 5, 4, 3, 2.

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you help spread the gospel of atheism.

That's true.

And now is that fun time in our show

when my trusty sidekick, Benji, joins me and peruses

some of our comments. What you got, bro?

You know, Trey, typically, we like

to hear from our supporters.

But I figured, today's a special day.

Let's hear a rant from somebody trying to preach at us.

Sure.

So here it goes.

What do you offer the world?

You make disgusting jokes about Christians

and then yuk it up like you've said

something brilliantly amusing.

Well, it's all fun and games for you until someone gets hurt.

That's my favorite part.

And that'll be you at the throne of judgment,

where the God who holds all heathen and derision

shall have the last laugh.

Oh, I'm shaking in my boots, Benji.

Oh, me as well, a Christian clown.

Would you like to hear another?

Sure.

Perfect.

Robert Jastrow wrote, at this moment,

it seems as though science will never

be able to raise the curtain on the mystery of creation.

For the scientist who has lived by his faith

and the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream.

He's scaled the mountains of ignorance,

and he's about to conquer the highest peak.

And as he pulls himself over that final rock,

he's greeted by a band of theologians who've been

sitting there-- get this--

for centuries.

Oh, I'm getting sick to my stomach, Benji.

Oh, I hear you.

So here's what I'm thinking.

Let's switch gears because I'm tired of that.

Mm-hmm.

Let's hear from one of the good guys.

Let's do it.

I'm just so glad my mind is not "inslaved"-- with an I--

by religion.

Makes me feel bad for Christians.

But I know that I've helped a few escape their bondage.

"Inslaved"?

Yeah, I think his English needs a little work.

Yeah, I would agree with you.

See, but I'm proud of the guy because, ultimately, we've

been able to help multiple people find freedom in atheism

and deconstruct their Christian faith.

And here's what I'm thinking.

With everyone's support out there, we can help a lot more.

You bet.

Ooh la la.

Look at this babe.

You better put your tongue back in your mouth

before you step on it.

Eh, she's not bad.

Not bad?

Uh, it's time for you to see your optometrist.

She is drop-dead gorgeous, a real beauty.

Yeah, not that it matters.

She's way out of your league.

Pete's sake, you wear the same shirt every day.

Hey, watch your tongue.

I'm just saying, get real, right?

We're nerds, eggheads.

Girls like that, they end up with the cool guys like movie

stars and jocks and doctors, not biologists, chemists,

and certainly not physicists.

OK, speak for yourself because I'm not just a scientist.

I'm a YouTube celebrity.

Right, no, I forgot, a legend in your own mind.

So then why don't you go ask her out, then, legend?

Oh, no, no, no, no.

I don't have time.

No. Ah-huh.

No, that's what I figured.

What?

What's so funny?

You remember that video I did making

fun of that creationist movie where

the old guy goes to college campuses and crusades

against evolution?

Oh, Debating my Gramps.

That's a classic.

Gramps wants to debate me.

- Are you serious? - Yeah.

What a trip.

I mean, you got, what, 400,000 views on that video already.

So say you debate him, you'd get at least that many,

which means ka-ching, Trey.

Probably so.

Plus, it'd be fun whittling him down to size.

Though, not much of a challenge.

I mean, he's not a major creationist like a Steven Meyer

or Ken Ham, but you can still crush him, humiliate him,

make it like the Christians versus the gladiators

in the Colosseum, though, that's Rome, not LA.

Duh, everybody knows that.

Just chill out a little bit.

He's just fighting for what he believes in.

If he respects me, I'll respect him.

All right.

No, and say he doesn't?

I'll get out my whittling knife.

Bingo.

Oh.

What?

There goes your big shot.

Well, you'll probably never see her

again, except in your dreams.

Challenge accepted.

Now what do I do for an encore?

Oh, Lord, I'm gonna to need your help here.

It's your dime.

Start talking.

- Trey? - Yeah.

Who's this?

Douglas Connors?

Oh, Gramps, the man, the myth, the legend.

So I heard you want to have a little debate

about evolution, huh?

Well, I'm not so sure I want to have a debate.

It just seems to be something I need to do.

Well, now, do you have some sort

of formal training in science that I'm not aware of?

Not really.

I just read a lot of stuff.

For example, I just read a book called Evolution's Echoes,

which recommended I read another book

called Evolution Impossible.

I highly suggest you check out those books.

Yeah, I'll pass.

So I guess this would be a situation where I'm

dueling with an unarmed man?

Maybe.

Goliath probably had similar thoughts.

Goliath?

So you think that you're David and gonna

to save your people from the big, bad, loudmouth,

atheist, giant?

Trey, I don't think a whole lot about myself, period.

This-- this is not about me.

Well, I'll tell you what.

I'm not much into formal debate.

So why don't we just have a civil conversation between us,

and you can ask me questions about evolution?

And I'll educate you.

I guess that'll work.

I do have to warn you though.

God will be mentioned in this discussion.

Well, I am not crazy about that prospect.

Well, if you're afraid--

No, no, no.

No, no, no, Douglas, I am not afraid.

You bring it on.

Now, can you do this live in a studio, or will

we need to do this remotely?

I'm not big on travel.

Where's your studio?

Lexington, Kentucky.

Really?

My daughters live there.

It's not that far a drive.

Jeez, I'd love to see them again.

Yeah, let's do it live.

All right, you got it.

I'll check the schedule, and I'll get back with you

with some dates that work.

Sounds like a plan.

Have a good one.

All right, Gramps.

Any prayer requests?

Well, I could use some prayer.

I'm gonna have a debate with a young atheist who happens

to be a scientist and has quite a following

out on his social media.

You know, I know I'm not qualified to carry out

such intellectual combat, but I just

felt like God was just pulling me up the ladder

and dragging me out to the end of the diving board

and nudging me off into the deep end.

So I'm gonna to need a little prayer here that God will speak

through me because if my own puny knowledge in this topic

was dynamite, I wouldn't have enough to blow my nose.

Well, my wife has a degree in zoology,

and she'd be more than happy to help you prepare for that.

Wow, it's really generous of you to offer her time.

You know, I'm gonna politely decline that offer,

maybe save you some marital mayhem.

You know, scripture tells us that when we get called

before the judges not to think in advance what

we're going to say but let the spirit

lead and speak through us.

I think that passage refers to how you should respond when

the authorities detain you.

You know, like advice for apostles on martyrdom.

Yeah, maybe you're right.

But I just feel that there's not enough evidence

or sufficient logical arguments to sway a militaristic atheist

and especially one who's built his life without God upon

the foundations of evolution.

Only the Holy Spirit can penetrate their defenses

and reach their heart and their mind.

Yeah, but what about his audience?

I mean, couldn't there perhaps be some among them that are not

quite so hardcore, some that maybe keep a partially open mind

that maybe you could reach with one

of your compelling arguments?

Maybe so, John, maybe so.

But with so little time to prepare and my advanced age,

I just can't see how cramming for that test

is gonna pay any real dividends.

I think I need to just throw myself on God's mercy

and let him do his thing.

If you change your mind, let me know.

Will do. Thank you.

Anybody else?

Excuse me.

If you're looking for a table, you can share mine with me.

Oh, that's kind of you.

Thanks.

I can't tell you how good it feels to get off my feet.

Why not?

Is it a secret?

Are you one of those guys I'm going to have

to watch my phraseology with.

I do keep people on their toes.

Oh, and here I was trying to get off mine.

The issue is a hard hospital floor.

Oh, you're a nurse?

Physician.

Really, they let people practice

medicine at such a young age?

Is your vision that bad, or are you a compliment male?

I'm pretty sure nobody's ever accused me of being that.

I'm Trey, by the way.

Trey by the way, your first name rhymes with your last.

Oh, a sense of humor.

I like it-- beauty, brains, and banter all in one package.

I didn't catch yours.

I didn't throw it.

Humph, OK, well, I guess I'll call you Beauty until you do.

So Beauty, do you reveal your real name on the second date?

Second date?

I sure hope you don't consider this a first date.

I don't believe in dating.

You don't believe in dating?

Well, I can provide plenty of evidence that dating exists.

It's kind of my thing.

Bit of a science geek.

I'm not sure what science has to do with social dating,

but I don't need proof.

I know it exists.

I just don't join in the practice.

Well, why not, if I may be so bold to ask?

Dating is a fairy tale world.

A handsome young man asks out a girl whose appearance makes

his heart go thumpity-thump.

He probably has no clue what she's

really like as a real person.

They go on a date, maybe dinner and a movie.

They spend most of the time in the restaurant

chewing their food and a few hours in the theater.

They could spend four hours together and not

know much more about each other than before the night started.

So they go on a second date to fix that.

And do it all over again.

I mean, no matter what they do, it's always something pleasant,

and they're always on their best behavior.

Their hormones are percolating, so they

think they're in love and jump into marriage

with great expectations and little wisdom.

After the rice has been swept up,

they suddenly realize that everything that bugs them

is suddenly brought to light.

Whoa.

You've just dissected dating as if it were a frog

and crammed it into a jar of formaldehyde.

Ah, you really are a science geek, huh?

Yeah.

Well, OK, so you're a doctor.

That means we have a mutual interest in science.

I think that's cool.

You know, you can tell a lot about a person by what

kind of coffee they drink.

What sort of a exotic mixture you got in that cup?

Green tea.

I don't like coffee.

Oh, well, I'm batting about zero right now.

Hmm, sports analogy.

Science guy can diversify.

Thank you for noticing.

Well, I better get back to the hospital.

Duty calls.

Will I see you again?

My dad used to sing this song, Que Sera, Sera--

whatever will be, will be.

Oh, I thought that was Doris Day.

Oh, I made her laugh.

My life is totally not in vain.

Jeweli.

Excuse me?

My name is Jeweli.

And your last name?

I have a feeling if I gave you that, you'd

break a leg or something so you'd need a doctor.

Why didn't I think of that?

OK, well, if you won't tell me your last name,

will you at least tell me what hospital you work at?

Thanks for the chair.

Have a good day.

Wait, wait, wait, at least take my car just in case

you get the urge to call.

Hey, Siri, who are the doctors in Lexington,

Kentucky with the name Julie--

J-U-L-I-E or J-U-L-I?

Sorry, I couldn't find any doctors

named Julie in Lexington.

So I figured if you'd hide out in the garden and didn't answer

the door, I'd go away.

Oh, Dad, I can't believe you braved the traffic to

come visit me.

I know how much you hate the big cities.

Not that Lexington is exactly huge.

Well, it's too big for me.

You know, you could come visit me sometime.

Yeah, so when's your debate?

Tomorrow at 10:00 AM.

Are you nervous?

Nervous at my age, Lori.

About the only thing that makes me nervous is driving in heavy traffic.

Though I am just a little concerned that I might be cannon

fodder for this guy's mockery tomorrow.

Be anxious and nothing.

You will be fine.

Okay, well, come on in.

Let's get you settled.

Let me get my stuff first.

All right, you need help?

Lori, I'm a guy.

- Enough said. - Yeah.

Welcome to another episode of Chilling

with the Renegade Scientist.

My guest today is Douglas Connors.

He is a writer and maker of Christian movies.

Welcome, Douglas.

Thank you, Trey.

So Douglas wanted to have a conversation about evolution.

And obviously, he has some difficulty embracing the truth.

So Douglas, let's just first off and tell

me why you are antiscience?

Hold on!

I'm not antiscience.

I am antipseudoscience and definitely anti

political science, which involves a study where

the results are intentionally skewed based

on who paid for the research--

for example, a study on the dangers of butter

paid for by the margarine industry, or vice versa.

Not all, quote unquote, "science"

is-- is equal, you know?

Me, I'm all about the truth.

Me too.

So what is your primary objection to evolution?

Ooh, so many to choose from.

Well, my biggest objection is this,

that despite the fact that the ideas generated by evolution

concerning the flora and fauna that we see around us,

they're historical in nature and can't

be replicated and tested in the laboratory

using the scientific method.

Even though that's true, these ideas

are forced down kids throats and other people's throats

all over the world as if they're slam dunk factual.

And no real discussion about other explanations

and possibilities is even permitted.

OK, so just to be clear here, you

are not advocating that the teaching of evolution

be removed from the classroom?

Not at all.

No, my mantra is, teach the controversy.

Get kids to think and present the idea,

one that's been believed by billions of people

over the centuries, that an omnipotent creator designed

this universe and specifically this planet and all the life

forms therein right alongside Darwin

and all those neo-Darwinists who evolved his theory.

That's material for religion class.

Religion and science should not be mingled.

Well, my definition of science is the discovery

by man of the world that God created with all its laws

and its elements and its properties

as confirmed by the scientific method.

I'm afraid, Douglas, you don't get to define science.

You should probably stick to defining religion.

The Bible already did that.

James wrote that pure religion is

to visit widows and orphans in their distress

and keep oneself unspotted from the world.

Oh, I bet the Muslims and the Hindus and the Jews

and about a zillion other religions

are just thrilled to hear that.

And by the way, there are a lot of atheists who give charity

to orphans and widows and live according

to their own moral standards.

Oh, so everyone gets to set their own moral standards?

There's no universal standard that applies to everybody?

Well, that's the beauty of not believing in God.

He can't force his values onto us.

But we digress.

Our conversation was supposed to be focused on evolution.

Let's get back on track.

Okey-dokey.

Um, let me throw some names at you.

OK.

Franklin Harold, who happens to be a biochemist--

that's a scientist.

Ugh, Douglas.

He wrote in a book that was published by Oxford University

Press, there are presently no detailed Darwinian accounts

of the evolution of any biochemical or cellular system,

only a variety of wishful speculations.

Well, that's one man's opinion.

One scientist's opinion.

OK, one scientist's opinion, but there

are a myriad of other scientists who will disagree with him.

And one thing I just--

I think we have to point out here

right now is that interpretation is key in the quest for truth.

First, Douglas, there's the interpretation

of the evidence itself.

And then we have to interpret the words

of the scientists who are describing their interpretation

of that evidence.

That's a good point.

Yeah, but what did Harold really mean when he said,

detailed Darwinian accounts?

It seems like the devil is always in the details, huh?

Well, I don't believe in the devil.

Go figure.

Well, in my experience, just about

every evolutionist interprets all evidence

as confirming evolution.

And if they can't do that, they either reject that evidence

or ignore it, along with the people who bring

that evidence to the table.

You creationists have such a persecution complex.

Well, maybe with reason.

You know, it's bad enough to ignore evidence.

But I think it's even worse to manufacture it.

And you guys do that sometimes.

Let me cite a concrete example.

Don't worry, I won't mention Nebraska

Man or Haeckel's drawings.

Richard Dawkins likes to demonstrate

how evolution works using a computer program analogy.

So there's a computer program that's

going to spell out a phrase, methinks it is like a weasel.

So let's see if I can explain this so even

a scientist can understand it.

Let's start with the letter A. So we got

a one-celled organism, an A.

OK.

Well, the computer is going to generate a new letter

and it's going to compare that against and see if it gets

a capital M because it's looking for a capital M.

And it gets an O. It says no, throw it away.

It goes again.

It randomly generates another mutation.

It's a P. Throw it away.

And then it comes up with a capital M finally.

And it mutates that A into an M. So now, we've got an M.

But it keeps on generating mutations.

And we come across, finally, after about 25 tries, a small e.

So now it appends that onto the M.

Now we got a two-celled organism.

It spells M-E. And it continues that

whole process until it spells out,

methinks it is like a weasel.

And then the program just stops.

And your point?

My point?

First of all, the computer knows the answer.

It knows where to drop in every one of those letters

and knows when to stop.

Natural selection doesn't have any intelligence

to make such a decision.

You know, it doesn't know what the goal is.

In fact, it doesn't understand goals.

It doesn't have any understanding.

It doesn't have any intelligence.

It don't know squat.

You know, it doesn't have any brakes either

and can't start mutations, and much less stop them.

So in real life, if you've got to have mutations happening,

there's nothing to stop them, we could

end up with a sentence, methinks Richard Dawkins is a weasel.

You know, this whole analogy is a logical hot mess.

But when Richard Dawkins trots out

his little dog and pony show, people

like you stand up and cheer.

And if someone like me says, you know, the emperor doesn't have

any clothes on, we get laughed out of Dodge City

like we're some kind of idiots.

You know, I don't know enough about computers to doubt

or even criticize Dawkins.

Oh, how convenient.

Well, I do.

In fact, out of curiosity, I wrote

a program to do exactly this.

It took me 17 minutes.

Runs on my PC in less than a second.

It took about 8,000, on average, mutations

to spell out the whole phrase.

Am I supposed to be impressed with that?

Fat chance of that.

But that's not my goal.

Let me drop another name here.

James Tour is a scientist who likes

to debate other scientists using science only,

even though he is a Christian.

But his opponents always attack his scientific arguments

by labeling him as a Christian and a creationist,

as if that invalidates any evidence

that he brings to the table.

He goes out of his way not to mention God.

And they always have to bring up the fact that he is religious.

Tour is an idiot.

So you've solved one of his challenges?

You know, he said that if anybody solves one of them,

he'll take down every one of his videos.

Douglas, he specializes in the origins of life.

That does not involve evolution, which is my focus,

and involves the changes within life, not its inception.

And that's also not the focus of our discussion today.

I really hate to come across sounding like a dictator here,

but I must insist that we keep our conversation

steered towards that topic.

So, OK, just so we're on the same page, what is

your definition of evolution?

Definitions are critical.

Yeah.

In fact, we should have started this discussion

with this question.

OK, my definition of evolution involves macroevolution.

I have no problem with microevolution,

which is changes and adaptations within a species.

Now, macroevolution is the goo to you via the zoo theory

that all life started out as one-celled organisms

and progressed through millions of years

through gradual nondirected mutations

through the DNA which proved to be advantageous to survival.

Really?

Well, no wonder you'd have a problem with that.

I would have a problem with evolution

based on that definition.

You know, evolution is so much more complex

than just mutation selection.

First of all, microevolution demonstrates the process

that leads to macroevolution.

And there's lots of other changes

that are involved than just mutation selection.

Are you familiar with the term epigenetics?

No.

OK, how about alleles?

No.

OK, thought so.

Well, without any changes to the DNA sequencing,

epigenetic expression changes lead

to new functionality in the phenotype containing that DNA.

And the natural stressors also lead to such alterations.

Without such knowledge, Douglas, you're

not equipped to just go poking holes in any scientific theory.

And there's lots of Christians out there

who accept both God and evolution.

The two don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Though, I personally find the idea of God in heaven

to be repulsive.

Well, Richard Dawkins did say one thing that I agree with.

He said that the Bible, the God of the Bible,

and macroevolution are not compatible.

They can't coexist.

You know, if God created everything,

all life, as he says he does in the Bible,

and there is evolution, that means that he created all

those beings with the ability to mutate and to evolve,

which means there was intelligence involved,

and he directed it.

And by very definition of evolution, which you will admit,

there can be no direction or intelligence involved.

You know, to rephrase the old chicken versus egg question,

which came first, DNA, or the first mutation

what brought about a change?

And while you're struggling with that conundrum,

I'm gonna throw out the bold statement

that only a creator could explain the coding

sequences that we find in DNA.

Well, let me throw in a name for you, Douglas, Stephen

Hawking Stephen Hawking said, religion is a fairy tale

for people afraid of the dark.

Ah-huh.

Mm-hmm.

And John Lennox said that atheism is a fairy tale

for people afraid of the light.

Oh, brother.

Lennox is a mathematician and a senile old man.

Senile?

That's probably your assessment of me.

You know, I really think that we cannot preclude common sense

and logic when we're discussing science

which can't be proven in the lab with scientific method.

You know, to actually arrive at truth,

we have to be able to follow evidence where it leads.

You know, if you omit design as a possibility of explaining

the complexity and the diversity of life around us,

I'm afraid that you've eliminated the possibility

of obtaining truth.

And around and around and around in circles we go.

Douglas, I'm just afraid we're not gonna agree on this.

Could be.

I would just advise you that eternity

is a long time to be wrong.

Oh, was I supposed to be afraid of that?

OK, well, we're gonna to take a quick break.

And we will be right back with more scintillating debate

on Chilling With the Renegade Scientist.

Be right back.

My sister is late, as usual.

If she's not here soon, I'm dishing up the food, Dad.

Oh, there she is.

Hey.

Honey.

How did the debate go?

Oh, I think I bombed it.

Really, why?

Well, I was doing pretty good at the beginning.

I think I was holding my own.

And then we had an intermission with a commercial,

and he started throwing scientific terms at me

and got me all rattled.

And I started to hem and haw.

And I couldn't think of the things I should have said

until I drove back to Lori's.

I was about as authoritative as Mr. Rogers.

You know, when I first got into this culture clash gig,

I pondered reverting back to the old me when

I had a sword-like wit and I was not afraid or ashamed to use it.

But that just didn't seem to be the way

Jesus would want me to roll.

So I just try to have respect for everybody,

even when I'm arguing with people like him.

Who is him, and did he attack you personally?

Well, he goes by the handle, The Renegade Scientist.

And no, he was nice, bit misguided, but nice.

Though, he did kind of treat me like an infant whose mouth

he was trying to spoon Pablum.

You know, I would use a different word for what he was

trying to feed me, but I try not to use

words like that, especially in front of you guys.

You know, the kicker is, this dude

said that Heaven, with all its peace and love and joy,

sounded like a repulsive place.

I mean, how can you even reach somebody who

doesn't want to go to Heaven?

Yeah.

Wow, that's a tough nut to crack.

Yeah, tell me.

It just hurts my heart when I meet people like him.

I read their comments online and their opinions.

Like, the combative spirit just comes out in me, you know?

But then when I meet 'em in person,

compassion just kind of oozes out of me.

How do you get entangled with these guys in the first place?

It's kind of crazy.

I really don't understand it myself.

It seems like I'm a magnet to 'em,

like there's a reverse-cultic fascination or something.

They watch my movies just so they can make fun of them

and me, of course. - Well, that's not very nice.

Yeah.

They can be pretty brutal too.

Yeah.

You know, one kid, he puts all his videos on TikTok, the ones

he's made of me, making fun of me,

and had over 12 million views.

12 million?

Yeah, it seems like nobody knows me in the Christian world.

But among the Instagram and TikTok crowd that

embraces atheism, I'm infamous.

Wow.

Well, maybe you're called to reach those people instead

of preaching to the choir.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing.

I mean, maybe God will use this video

in a way you never foresaw, so don't

despair thinking you blew it.

Yeah.

You know, I've had thoughts along that line before.

I thought, maybe when the proverbial stuff hits the fan--

You mean Pablum?

Yeah.

When that Pablum hits the fan.

These people are gon-- some of them,

anyway, hopefully, will start looking for answers.

And maybe something I've presented to them

will help them discover at least a path to the truth

and, hopefully, life eternal in Christ Jesus,

maybe even after I'm dead and gone.

Jesus tarries.

Yeah.

Amen.

Well, I know it's too late for us

to pray about changing your words in the debate.

But we can pray that the Holy Spirit will touch the hearts

of those who watch the video.

Amen.

Mhm, let's do that right after we eat.

Okey-doke.

I can take a hint. - Yeah.

A subtle one.

I'm starving.

Me too.

What you got her?

Oh, hey there, elusive Dr. Jeweli.

You mind if we join you?

Who's your friend?

Benjamin Bates, coworker, right-hand man,

and chief groupie.

You know, Trey wouldn't be where he is today without me.

Really?

Yeah, it's because I drove him to the coffee shop.

You're driving me to drinking.

Oh, in this case, quite literally, though, only coffee.

But one day, Trey, I'm gonna get you to imbibe

something a bit stronger.

Dude, you know that my whole point in life

is to keep my wits about me and to be in control at all times.

Your beverages of choice don't fit into that plan.

Right, well, it's too bad you don't have a life to control.

Hey, I didn't sit down with this lovely lady

to cross swords with you.

So why don't you put a lid on it or go

powder your nose or something?

Or, get this, I could punch yours.

You don't believe in violence.

And I could suspend that belief for, I don't know,

three seconds.

And I could suspend you from a chandelier for about three days.

- You feeling lucky, Trey? - Ah-huh.

Guys, hey, how about you throttle back

the testosterone just a couple of notches?

Tell you what.

I'll go powder my nose, and you two can work out

your hostilities in my absence.

OK.

We'll see you.

You have $5 says she's not coming back.

She's coming back.

And I'll pay you $5 to pretend to be mad at me

and leave me here stranded without a ride.

Deal.

Um, and how exactly you plan on getting to the office?

No, you don't mean-- you don't think--

Exactly.

Well, that's a long walk if she refuses.

You want me to hang out in the parking lot for a couple minutes

in case your plan doesn't work out?

Though, I still get to keep the $5.

No, thanks.

But actually, change of plans.

I don't want to expose her to the displeasure of our fighting

again, so why don't you take off,

you leave me here without a ride,

and we'll spare her the pain.

All right, works for me.

Hope you got some comfortable walking shoes on though, Trey.

Did you and Benjamin achieve world peace?

Actually, he got so mad at me that he

told me to take a long hike.

And he took off and left me here without a ride.

So I guess that's exactly what I'm gonna have to do.

How far do you have to go?

Six miles.

Oh.

You don't seem too shook up about it.

Well, it what it is.

I mean, why spoil a nice day and a pleasant conversation

by getting bent out of shape?

So, how you been?

Busy, as usual.

Are you going to reveal your last name today?

After all, it is the second date.

Your definition of a date and mine are worlds apart.

Do you just have so many guys hitting on you

that you can afford to ignore a guy like me who fell in love

with you at first sight?

I don't have any guys hitting on me because I don't go

into places where that happens.

Oh.

So your goal in life is to be alone.

No, I'm just waiting for the right one to come along,

someone with the same goals in life.

Well, how do you know that that's not me?

We haven't even discussed goals yet.

I'm not feeling it.

But I guess I could be wrong.

Ooh, do I detect just a tiny little sliver of an opportunity

to win you over?

Let me give you a clue as how to enhance the opportunity.

Just let it flow naturally.

Don't try to force anything with flattery and fakery and flowers.

And definitely don't throw the L word around there casually.

Flattery, fakery, flowers, that's a lot of F words.

But I guess you're saying I should

pump the brakes a little bit.

Yeah.

Speaking of breaks, I gotta go.

If you want a ride, it's now or never.

Now would be awesome.

Well, I know better than to ask for a kiss,

but could I ask one more time for your last name?

Gotta admire the persistence.

Tell you what.

Next time we run into each other at the coffee shop,

I'll reveal the big secret.

Well, that makes my day.

I guess I'll just have to work down there all day

just so I won't miss you.

Well, I might come in during the evening.

Then I'll work all day and all night till they kick me out.

Whatever.

Well, now I'm kicking you out of my car.

I've got things to do.

Roger that.

Well, thank you for saving my shoes, my time, maybe my life

with your token of generosity.

You're welcome.

Hey, hey.

So you make it to first base?

Not quite.

But I did get to the plate, and the pitcher

is sharing signals with me.

So I have an idea how to make solid contact.

Right, no, I'll believe that when I see it.

So what do you want to work on today?

Let's get that debate edit complete

and upload it to YouTube and TikTok.

And I wanna like stink on sardines, Trey.

Hey, Dad, what's up?

Hey, kiddo.

Hey, check your email.

I just sent you and your sister a link to my debate

out on YouTube.

I'll watch it tonight.

Hey, but don't-- don't be too disappointed

if Jeweli doesn't get to it for a bit, OK?

Yeah, I know how slammed she is.

It's all good.

You know, everything in God's timing.

Who is that?

Some guy who thinks he's in love with me.

What?

I know.

And you never told me about him?

No, there's nothing to tell.

I mean, he tried to make a pass, and I swatted it

down at the line of scrimmage.

I want to meet him.

Lori, no.

Yeah.

Lori, I--

Hi, I'm Lori.

Oh, hey.

I'm--

The Renegade Scientist!

Oh, you've seen my videos.

Just one, the one where you debated

my father about evolution.

Douglas is your dad?

Wow!

Ah-huh, hers too.

Jeweli's my sister.

Gee, Jeweli, you've been hobnobbing with the enemy.

Uh, hold on now.

Enemy's such a strong word.

You made fun of our dad.

It was all in good sport, nothing personal.

My thing is making fun of all Christian movies.

But I kind of liked talking to your dad.

Jeweli, did you get to watch the debate?

I hadn't found the time.

Well, I guess I don't have to tell you my last name.

- Connors? - Mm-hmm.

Which means you must be Lori Connors.

Nope, Lori Atwater.

My husband is a marine, by the way.

OK, I'll keep that in mind.

Um, so can I assume that you girls

share your dad's convictions about God and evolution?

Absolutely.

Does that mean that you're set on marrying a believer?

Not just any believer.

The Bible says that demons believe and tremble.

I want to marry someone whose whole life

is dedicated to serving God, not me, and not himself.

CS Lewis said, Christianity, if false, is of no importance,

if true, is of infinite importance.

The one thing it cannot be is moderately important.

So my mantra is, my heart is yearning

after someone who is running after God, not after me.

If he's doing that, I'll run to catch him.

So you must be scratching my name off the list of candidates

right now.

Truthfully, I never put you on the list.

You know, you Christians are supposed to be all about sharing

your faith with others.

Prove to me that God exists, and I'll believe.

I don't missionary date.

No, no.

You said you don't date at all.

True, but I don't fall in love with someone

and then try to convert them.

And I definitely don't promise to fall in love with someone

if they believe in Jesus.

They have to do that without any ulterior motive.

After that, que sera sera.

So you're just gonna let my soul rot in hell.

Ah!

You said in your debate that you didn't believe in Hell.

Yeah, well, maybe you also picked up on the fact

that I said, I want to have the truth.

And would you really risk alienating your entire audience

that's paying you rather handsomely,

I might add, with their views and clicks

by repudiating evolution?

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

I didn't say anything about deep-sixing

my scientific convictions.

This was about searching for God.

Well, if you find God, I can guarantee

that you'll have no use for Charles

Darwin and Richard Dawkins.

That's a bold statement.

So are you up for the challenge of showing me God?

I'll have to think and pray about it.

If the Lord wants me to do it, I won't shirk my duty,

as unpleasant as it may be.

Oh, gosh, no one's gonna accuse you

of being a sunshine pumping mill throwing out compliments

like candy to parade.

But think about it all you want.

And if you would do me the courtesy

of giving me a call with your decision, I'd be appreciative.

Oh, what have I done?

There are so many people living life in misery

Victims of our neglect

They cry out for help

The crowds walk on by

Too busy to care

And they cry out to you

Will you walk on too tonight?

Reach out to them

Reach out to them tonight

So many lonely girls

So many lonely guys

So many lonely hearts crying out for love

So many lonely girls

So many lonely guys

So many lonely hearts crying out for love

Reach out to them

God wants everyone to be safe

And to know the truth

God wants everyone to be safe

And to know the truth

Reach out to them

Reach out to them

Reach out to them

Am I crazy for even considering this?

Absolutely not.

You know, the Bible says that we need to contend for our faith

and be ready to give answer to every man

for the hope that's within us.

This is an opportunity.

You know, I took a swing at this and missed.

But you have a leverage that I don't have

that's gonna motivate him to look

beyond his scientific safe room.

I don't even have time for this.

Honey, you never have time for anything.

You have to make time for what's important.

You still exercise every day?

Yeah, just like you taught me.

Kill two birds with one stone--

exercise, educate, train at the same time.

Yeah, multitask, why didn't I think of that?

Oh, you would have eventually.

I'm gonna be sending you an email

with some of the vulnerabilities that I

failed to attack in our debate.

And I'll be praying for you too, kiddo.

All right. Thanks, Dad.

That sounds good.

Love you.

Love you more.

Bye.

It's your dime.

Start talking.

I think your phrase is out of date.

Coin-operated phones cost more than a dime if you can find one.

The quest for truth knows no rest, huh?

Thanks for setting me straight.

My pleasure.

So I-- I watched the debate.

Did you truly mean it when you said that the truth was the most

important thing to you?

Oh, yeah, with all my heart.

All right, so I'll accept your proposal to-- oh,

let me rephrase that.

I'll accept your request to be your tour guide

on the search for God under some conditions.

Name them.

We have to do a lot of our talking at the gym.

We talk while I work out.

Can you handle that?

Do bears sleep in the woods?

I've actually been thinking about joining a gym.

JEWELI (ON PHONE) Oh, 6:00 AM.

Ooh, yeah, I don't know if my brain engages that early.

But I'm willing to give it a shot.

What else?

That's it.

Wow.

OK, well, what gym, and when do we start?

Brickhouse Gym, tomorrow.

Oh, yeah, I've heard of that place.

By the way, I've got a little confession to make.

While I was trying to figure out your last name and which

hospital you worked at, I was looking for "Julie"

through all the hospital staff directory lists.

And it's not fair that your parents spelled it J-E-W-E-L-I.

Though, I do find it appropriate,

considering you are a gem.

Ah, ah, ah, no flattery.

And what were you gonna do once you've found

out what hospital I worked at?

Well, well, I was trying to figure out how I could break

my leg without any actual pain, it occurred to me

that just because you work at a hospital

didn't mean that you worked in the ER.

You could have turned out to be a proctologist.

But now I see that you're a pediatrician,

so I'm really glad I didn't take a hammer to my femur.

See you tomorrow at 6:00 AM.

By the way, there might be pain involved if you're out of shape.

OK.

Bye, Jeweli.

I gotta tell you, going at that slow pace

is basically worthless.

I watched a video once where they

explained the effects of certain paces as far as longevity goes.

And below a certain threshold, there

was no advantage to exercise.

I didn't know that.

But see, I'm not afraid to confess to my ignorance.

So how much do you know about religion?

Well, my parents are believers.

I was raised in the Presbyterian Church.

I could not wait to get out of there,

to get them out of controlling my life.

You really are a renegade.

Well, I mean, I call them like I see 'em.

I had lots of questions about God and the Bible.

And you know, they just kind of blew me off and said,

just believe.

I don't roll like that.

Do you think, perhaps, the problem

was with your denomination and not Jesus and the Bible?

No, I pretty much dismissed every flavor of Christianity

as lacking.

Well, not exactly a wise assumption,

based on your limited experience.

OK, OK, so stipulated.

So where do we begin this quest to broaden my mind?

Well, I figure, since you're a science guy, let's start there.

But you have to dispense on your boundaries with naturalism.

If you won't allow God in a scientific discussion,

then this exercise will be futile.

OK, so what exactly does that look like?

Weigh all evidence with this question.

Could God be the answer to the whodunit?

And would God be a more likely answer

than what naturalism provides?

That sounds like two questions to me.

Or two sides of the same question, but let's not

get bogged down by semantics.

I agree.

Hey, before we get started, you're a doctor, right?

So you have all this formal science training.

How is it that you can reject evolution?

Since evolution is the glue that holds all biology together?

Exactly.

My dad laughed when you said that.

But he failed to press you on the topic.

I found that I had no need for macroevolution

in learning about the body's processes like birth

and the health of babies and mothers.

And the historical origin of Homo sapiens

isn't really a regard to me since it doesn't change the fact

that our typical normal body temperature is 98.6 degrees

and we can only survive a few days without water

and a few minutes without oxygen.

I don't need Darwin to care for my patients,

but I venture to guess the same is true for anyone

working in the field of biology.

Ready for the next one?

I guess.

That's good.

So you reject evolution because you

don't find it useful?

I reject macroevolution because I

find it unsatisfactory in explaining the diversity

and complexity of life.

I mean, the glue of biology is the spark of life.

And you admit that scientists don't even know what life is.

Your theory depends on all these miraculous, remarkable changes

to organisms over millions of years.

The explanation that God created things are the way they are is

leaves no need for any other explanation.

Well, I explained to your dad that various types

of mutations and natural selection

could account for that diversity.

OK, but the fairy tale-like progressions

of those mutations defies belief by a rational person.

He tried to pin you down into explaining how

the blood and the blood vessels and the lungs

and the liver and the brain could all have evolved slowly.

But you squirmed out of the question

by citing your evidence for things that we have witnessed.

But can you draw a picture of a complex organ, like a heart,

evolving into being along with the miles of blood vessels

and the lungs bringing in the oxygen

that carries the blood to the cells?

And don't just try to evade the question by giving me

the lame answer that changes in DNA could pull off that miracle.

Most intelligent people don't consider

that to be a lame answer.

Well, draw the picture.

You can't do it.

And that's why you have to evade the question

with coulds and might haves.

A human being is not like an airplane where

the seats and the wheels and the engine

can all be blueprinted and put into place one at a time

until the whole airplane is complete.

A human being is like--

a human being has to survive during the process

of the changes.

You can't blueprint the process for survival when survival

is required for the process.

And that's logic 101.

Did anyone ever tell you how pretty

look when you get animated?

Are you derailing my argument with petty flattery?

Let me use another analogy.

So there's a guy sitting on top of a mountain.

The bottom of the mountain has handholds and footholds,

and one could get up partway without much of a problem.

But the top of the mountain is steep and smooth and slippery.

Ah, a slippery slope, huh?

Exactly.

And you would say that he, obviously, climbed up there

because he's there, and there's evidence

of him being on the lower part of the mountain.

Yeah.

But remember, he'd have about billions of years to get there.

Doesn't matter.

You can multiply zero by any number in the universe,

and the answer still comes out to be zero,

no matter how many years go by.

There are limitations that time cannot overcome.

You evolutionists accuse us of applying the God of the gaps,

but you invoke the time of the gaps.

Whatever, Jeweli.

Math and science are not the same.

And we're not dealing with the number zero.

But OK, with your slippery slope analogy, what's the answer,

that God put him there?

Well, if that's the only explanation for it, yeah.

I mean, if you scientist interviewed him and he said

that God beamed him up there, you'd completely

ignore his testimony.

If his cancer is healed after prayer, you ignore that.

Anything that points to God must be avoided and suppressed.

Well, speaking of prayer, scientists

have found no tangible proof that there's

some divine being beaming health into people from afar.

But you know, Jeweli, I know lots of atheists who were once

believers who walked away from their faith

because God never showed up and showed out

when they cried onto him.

God is not some trained monkey that performs

on demand for a banana.

Even we Christians don't understand

why he acts in some cases and not in others.

But he's certainly not going to respond to experimental prayer

meant to manipulate him.

God's ways are higher than ours.

Of course, because that makes for a pet answer

all doubts reply.

You know, Jeweli, Christians don't

have airtight arguments either.

In fact, they got a lot of wacky ideas.

Such as?

OK, well, according to your Bible,

Jesus was in the grave three days and three nights, right?

And you celebrate his death on Good Friday.

So OK, if he was laid in the tomb on Friday night

and he rose on Sunday morning, that seems like it's three days,

but it's actually only two full days of time.

But here's the kicker.

It only involves two nights.

And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that you

guys celebrate a contradiction.

I know.

You're absolutely right.

You admit it?

Mm-hmm.

But that's man's mistake.

I mean, the Bible doesn't say that it

happened on a Friday, but rather the first day of Passover.

And that feast changes days according

to the Hebrew lunar calendar.

The year Jesus died, it must have been a Thursday.

And the only time that happened during Herod's reign was 30 AD.

And not 33 AD.

Exactly.

Hah!

Why wasn't I ever told this?

I mean, it seems like everybody's been celebrating

his death on Good Friday, when it

should have been on a Thursday.

And how in the world do you know so much about this?

Well, I was bugged by the same puzzle, so I researched it.

The time division between BC and AD didn't happen until,

like, 500-something.

There was a monk that was instrumental in making

that determination.

It seems like he was off by about three years.

That blows my mind.

But you know what?

In reality, it doesn't change anything.

You know, the dates don't prove that Jesus rose from the dead,

that he was the son of God, or that God even exists.

You know, Christians have a lot of other warts as well.

You know, we don't have a perfect religion.

There is no perfect religion.

But we do have a perfect savior.

Well, I can't disagree with you on the first part

of your statement.

But it is refreshing to meet somebody

with the intellectual honesty to admit that.

It'd be nice to find an evolutionist

who would admit to the warts of Darwinism and neo-Darwinism.

And you want that person to be me?

Look, Jeweli, you can get me up 6:00 AM,

sweat out a gallon of sweat every day,

but don't overestimate your powers of persuasion.

And your time is up for today.

So how'd that workout session go?

Frustrating.

You know how I led her dad to follow my narrative?

Yeah.

Well, the daughter is having no part of that.

She is a tough cookie.

You know, every time I look at her, Benji,

it's like, she's so dang cute that my mind just turns to mush.

Look, I told you to be careful, all right?

First off, you look on YouTube, there

are plenty of videos of atheists converting to Christianity.

And what I'd hate is to see you, Trey, become a statistic.

Yeah, but there's probably an equal number

of videos of Christians who became atheists,

biblical scholars, even.

You know, a lot of their musical celebrities

are recanting their faith.

Maybe I could make a statistic out of her.

Trey, not to be a Debbie Downer, but my money's on her.

Here's my thought.

You pretend to convert, and then you bed

her and wed her if you want.

Benjamin, what kind of a slimeball do you think I am?

Why don't you focus on the show?

Get ready!

All right.

I feel a burden for Trey today.

Don't you always?

Well, yes, but it just-- it seems different.

I mean, it just seems like something

special is happening today.

Good special or bad special?

Well, I don't know, maybe both.

I mean, maybe because God is doing something special,

that Satan is applying pressure to stop it.

I know.

We need to attack it in prayer right now.

No, right now!

Sandy, Sandy.

What?

We've prayed for him for years in vain.

First, he strayed a little bit from the faith.

And then, he started pulling others from their religion.

How long can you keep doing this?

Hope deferred makes the heart sick.

Well, I don't know about you, but I can

and I will as long as I draw breath.

OK.

Well, I hope you weren't expecting

to win him over in one session.

I don't know what I was expecting,

other than stubbornness.

I would expect you to be equally as rock solid.

At least I have solid ground to stand on.

Mhm.

So I watched this movie the other night.

It was called The Poseidon Adventure.

It's about a cruise ship that gets turned upside down,

and there's a handful of people that are convinced

by this pastor or priest--

I'm not sure which-- that they can climb

up to the bottom of the boat.

They can climb up to the bottom.

Yeah, because it's upside down.

Oh, gotcha.

There's this crew guy that argues that they would

be safe by staying where they are

and waiting for a rescue team.

And?

Well, they didn't attempt the climb.

So most of the ones that sought to escape following the pastor's

hunch made it out alive.

The rest, not so lucky.

Water poured in on them, and, well, enough said.

So what's your point?

I see evolutionists as being like that crew guy that

told the people that there was no point in even

looking for an escape hatch.

We're just all going to die, and it's over.

Well, we know that's not true.

So we look up, and we climb up through Jesus.

The evolutionists, I mean, at least the atheist ones,

right, they offer us no hope.

Right.

So we have to be strong in our belief

and in our resolve to bring as many with us to Heaven

as we can.

I'm trying.

I know.

I just-- I think that you need help, more than I can provide,

you know?

Wait, did you say that Trey's parents were Christian?

I did.

OK, crazy idea, what if you contacted

them and prayed with them?

You know, like, little synergy action going on there.

How am I gonna get their contact info?

I can't just be like, hey, Trey, can I get your parents' phone

number so we can tag team you on some spiritual warfare prayer?

True.

That would be a little creepy.

So you said he's originally from Kansas?

I did.

All right, let me see if I can track them down for you.

Oh, that could be like looking for a needle in a haystack.

Mhm.

I'm back.

And I'm surprised.

Thought I scared you away with all the deep discussion.

Hey, I don't like shallow conversation.

But with you, I need my deep-sea diving equipment.

I like it.

Well, hook up your oxygen tank.

Let's go again.

So yesterday, you said that we had no proof

that Jesus rose from the dead.

I want to submit an intriguing piece of evidence

that I believe does just that.

There's a cloth that bears the image of a man that shows

all the characteristics of what the Bible says

Jesus went through.

Oh, you're talking about the Stroud of Turin, right?

Oh, you know about it.

It's been debunked.

Not so fast.

You atheists sure love to sling that word around a lot.

One detractor shows up, and you claim that debunks everything.

They did carbon dating on the shroud,

and they found that the date was way

too late to have anything to do with Jesus of the first century.

Well, what if there was a patch made on the cloth because

of the fire it went through, and the carbon dating test

came from that section of cloth?

Well, then they would get the date of the patch.

Mm-hmm, debunking your debunking.

Is someone claiming that happened?

Indeed.

Doesn't matter because the supposed blood on the cloth

is not blood.

That was the opinion of one guy who seemed

to be a bit of a charlatan.

But the other expert said that it was blood.

But the kicker, the thing that should intrigue

a scientist like yourself, is that the image

itself cannot be explained.

It's like a negative that was burned on the shroud

and only goes one fiber deep.

We don't have technology that can do that today,

and there certainly isn't evidence of there

being technology back then.

So you're saying that Jesus left

a photographic negative of himself

as a testimony of his return to life?

Maybe.

I just think that someone with an inquiring mind,

such as yours, someone who wants to get down

to the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,

would want to pursue that.

How do you know so much about this?

My dad was working with one of the members

that examined the shroud in order to write a movie script.

Another one of your dad's lame movies?

Did I say something wrong?

You know, I love my father.

I know you think he's a nutcase, but I know better.

I'd appreciate it if you put a lid on any rude comments

you want to make about him.

Jeez, sorry I ruffled your pretty little feathers.

I'll check out the shroud more in depth.

But I'm not sure that it's acceptable evidence.

That's a key point.

You guys seem to decide what is evidence

and what isn't based on whether it fits your narrative

or not, hardly scientific or something

a truth seeker would do.

I like to examine all the evidence for myself

and not rely on the opinions of others.

You know, Jeweli, there's a lot of information, disinformation,

and misinformation out there.

And with AI's potential to doctor and create media,

it's becoming a real challenge to figure out what is true.

Yeah, I can certainly see a great potential for the misuse

of that technology.

Well, in any case, check out Barrie Schwortz on YouTube

talking about the shroud.

He was the photographer on the team,

and he thought that, after five minutes of examining the shroud,

they would pronounce it to be fake.

Instead, he was convinced that it wasn't.

Of course he did, because it bolstered his Christian faith.

No, he's not a Christian.

He's a Jew.

Oh, interesting.

All right, well, but OK, if he's so

convinced that it's real, then why hasn't he embraced Jesus?

Excellent question.

My dad actually made a movie about that

where the theme is, when a Jew embraces Jesus,

he does not cease to being a Jew.

I know I made fun of that one too.

I'm sorry.

But you know, you should actually be grateful to me

because my mocking actually drives traffic to his movies.

Yeah, and your people show up like chuckleheads at PT Barnum's

freak show at the circus.

The geeks and the bearded ladies

and the midgets and the giants.

Now they marvel at the bizarre Christians who stand

up for old-fashioned values.

Tell me something.

Anything.

Would you like your groupies showing

up to laugh at your parents?

OK, uh, almost anything.

OK, well, why don't you pull it out of me, why don't you,

all right?

I would not be happy if people were mocking my parents.

I haven't talked to them in ages,

but I know them to be decent people.

Misguided, perhaps, but they have good hearts.

Which you've probably broken a bit.

Hey, you know, I can't choose the same path in life

just because they want me to.

I gotta be me, Jeweli.

What else can I be but me?

My sister went down that path too.

Lori? - Yeah.

But now she's back in the fold?

She is.

She went off to college a good little Christian angel

and quickly got corrupted in more ways than one.

Dad and I went through hell as we fought

to help her find her way back.

But what about you?

You never wavered from the path, just practically perfect

in every way?

You know, stupid people never learn from their mistakes.

Intelligent people do.

Wise people learn from others' mistakes

so they don't have to go through the pain to absorb the lesson.

OK, wait a minute though.

I thought you said that you went through hell and back

because Lori wandered off the yellow brick road.

That sounds like pain to me.

Not all the pain she suffered, collateral damage, maybe.

But bottom line, do you still have at least

some love for your parents?

Truthfully, I don't know what love is.

But I appreciate the fact they brought me up in a good home.

Well, that's good.

At least that means there is some hope for you.

But you can understand why I get so agitated when

you make fun of my dad.

Yeah, and I'm sorry.

I won't do that again.

But will you take down the videos where you do that?

Jeweli, my livelihood comes from my content, OK?

That stuff was some of my best releases.

I won't cut down your dad in front of you,

but I'm not gonna go erasing the past either.

Look, do you have some time to get a coffee or tea or something

so we can continue this conversation?

Yeah, but I only have a few minutes.

Custard Cabins, cute place.

I've never seen it before.

Look around, Jeweli.

You know, I find it hard to believe that you can look around

at all of the wonderful things that God created for us,

and not see his handiwork.

For example?

Well, how about the rebirth of spring?

All the trees seem to die off in the winter,

but they're reborn in spring.

So you think that God created the world to work like that

as a sign of eternal life?

Well, first of all, people in the tropical zones

don't see that.

And second, that's not evidence.

You got something else?

Well, Jesus put a lot of emphasis

on people producing fruit.

Look at all the fruit-bearing plants and trees

and the healthy and delicious aspects of them

and even the convenience.

Like, look at the banana and how easy it is to peel

to obtain the good stuff.

And tell me, how does producing that fruit

assist the tree in surviving?

Like the grapefruits, for example,

they're comprised of 80% water.

Each grapefruit on that tree is zapping water

resources from the tree itself.

Seems that having mutations to take a nonbearing fruit

tree into one that produces water and nutrient-dense produce

is not something that natural selection would bless.

All right, well, first of all, the grapefruit

is not a native plant that God created.

It's a cross between pomelos and Citrus sinensis, which

was a hybrid of Citrus reticulata and Citrus

maxima-- evolution in action.

Whether hybrid or not, where's the advantage

for the tree and growing pomelo citrus whatever you said?

Wherever water is plentiful, it's not a problem.

You guys act like if you had enough time,

you could shake up a can of LEGOs, dump it out,

and it would assemble itself into the Taj Mahal, I mean,

complete with indoor plumbing, heating and air,

electricity, and a Wi-Fi.

And that's crazy, especially since we

know how complex cells are.

You can't tell me where cells came from.

But you can say without a doubt that they all came together

at some point to create a human body

with all of its complex and interworking systems.

Complexity is no argument against evolution, Jeweli.

Are you kidding me?

Sure it is.

I mean, the more complex the organism, the more difficult

the task, exponentially more difficult even.

Your pet equation seems to be anything

plus time equals everything.

Instead of invoking Father God, you invoke Father Time.

We've been over this before, time of the gaps,

as you called it.

Oh my gosh, I have to go.

Here, take a look at that when you have a chance.

Please draw me a picture of how gradual mutations could lead

to the formation of a heart and a liver

and a set of lungs and blood with clotting capability

and miles of blood vessels to carry that blood and oxygen

and nutrients out to the cells and return the waste

products to the liver.

If you can show me how all of these intricate body functions

could develop over time when all of them

are necessary for the survival of a mammal,

I will abandon my belief in God and join your side.

PS, I'm not worried because this task is impossible Yeah, right.

Oh, boy.

Bingo.

His father's name is Steven Crawford in Kansas.

All right.

We're sorry.

The number you have dialed is not in service.

Oh, you've got to be kidding me.

All right, Facebook, don't let me down.

All right, there's the haystack.

Now to find the needle.

What's up?

So did you thread that needle yet?

Not quite.

Actually, it was almost a slam dunk.

And then the phone number that was listed is no longer active.

So now, I'm going through Facebook

and trying to find a Steven Crawford.

And there is a lot of them.

Why couldn't his name have been something

like Clem Kadiddlehopper?

But I promise you, I will find that proverbial needle.

Well, what if they're not on Facebook?

That would be a monkey wrench in my gearbox.

Or if they are, and they just never use it.

Wow, you are just a fountain of encouragement, aren't you?

Sorry, just being real.

Well, you can be real happy when I find the treasure.

That I can do.

Eureka!

Steven Crawford on Facebook.

But no phone number.

OK, plan B.

Hmm.

Hmm what?

Well, look, we just got a message from a nonfriend

on our Facebook account.

She asks if we have a son named Trey.

Should I answer her?

Sounds like a scam to me.

There are a zillion conmen and women out there, you know?

Well, I know, and I'm always very leery of strangers.

Why don't you ask them why they want to know?

OK, hold on.

Oh, wow, here.

She, um-- she said sh--

she and her sister are wanting to pray with us

over Trey that he returns-- oh, my gosh,

that he returns to the Lord.

Wow!

That sounds like a divine appointment.

It's a good thing you got back to them.

Yeah.

Make it happen.

OK.

So what's up with Trey and Jesus freak babe?

I have no idea.

He stopped confiding in me after I

suggested he use some less-than-noble tactics on her.

Now I'm afraid she's put a spell on him

and has sabotaged his passion for fighting a good fight

against creationism.

But I warned him.

Should we intervene somehow?

Absolutely.

I'll tell you what.

You come up with a good plan, I'll be more

than happy to put it into play.

I am not squeamish at all about being less than noble.

Good.

Let me wrap my brain cells around this

and come up with a solution.

Deal.

Using that one job phrase--

I had one job as a parent to raise

my offspring to love and have faith in Jesus Christ,

and I fail miserably.

You know, my dad always uses an expression that he

stole from Yogi Berra I think.

It ain't over until it's over.

You know what?

I keep telling him the same thing.

Oh, when I hear the stories of child trafficking

and-- and the brutality of people,

I just want to cry out to Jesus to come back right now.

But our son would be lost if he did.

And so many of the younger generations

are in the same situation.

I mean, it's like this epidemic.

I wonder if this is the great falling away

that the Bible talks about.

Statistically, the statistics are awful.

The young generation is just not embracing

the faith of their parents.

Well, parents are losing their faith also.

I mean, when I hear the story in the Bible of, you raise up

your child in the way he should go, and when he gets older,

he will not depart from it, girl,

I just have to bite my tongue.

Yeah, but as far as I can tell, we did everything right.

But the results are all wrong.

And I don't see any evidence of that changing.

Listen, I'm sorry to be fencing on you like this.

I mean, we're just-- we're at our wits end.

Our cup is overflowing with frustration.

I know exactly what you mean.

Yeah, that would be because of me.

I was a prodigal, and the Lord reeled me back in.

He can do the same for Trey.

Well, we know he can.

The $64,000 question is, will he before it's too late?

Well, I'm doing what I can to make that happen.

And that's why we asked to pray together with you guys.

So shall we get started?

Absolutely.

Lead on.

Wow, I can't believe it's already been two weeks

since we started this routine.

I can already feel a big difference in my body.

Well, the goal is to not get you buff,

but spiritually enlightened.

Well, I told you, I wasn't gonna be an easy mark.

Yeah, the problem is, your confidence

is in your own intelligence.

What else do I have to base anything on?

I mean, it would be stupid to put my trust in ignorance.

It's like, if God did create us, then

he obviously gave us brains.

And we're supposed to use them just like the muscles

we're working out right now.

If you don't use them, you lose them.

And didn't the Bible say to be as wise as serpents?

And as harmless as doves.

But it also says to not lean on your own understanding

and to put your trust in Him.

Well, do you?

I mean, do you just totally turn your brain off and trust in God?

I'd be lying if I said I did.

And I don't do it all the time.

But I do know that when I trust in the Lord,

it's the most important thing that I could ever do.

Let me throw you a curveball.

There's a law in science called biogenesis, right?

Yeah, life only comes from life.

So in order for life to begin, that law would have had

to been broken at some point.

Yeah, that's called abiogenesis,

and it's probably happened lots of times.

But if it can be broken, then how can it be considered a law?

And where do the laws of science come from anyway?

Do they not have to have a lawmaker?

Aren't you just putting your faith in scientists rather than

in your own brains to realize that there are

questions that science can't answer?

They have answers.

Yeah.

They throw spaghetti against the wall,

and they hope it will stick.

Those answers don't cut it.

What I keep hearing for arguments for evolution is,

this is how it could have happened,

just wishful speculations.

Then why do so many people not only embrace

evolution, but swear by it?

You want the truth?

I'm not sure you could handle the truth.

I can handle anything you throw my way.

So many people have fallen into the subtle trap

that the devil has set for them.

And they don't have the brains to realize they've been hacked.

Oh, come on, Jeweli.

Don't tell me you're gonna pin the rap on the pointy-headed guy

with the red suit and the pitchfork?

Prove to me the devil exists.

You got photographs, eyewitnesses?

You wouldn't accept eyewitnesses.

You don't even consider that evidence unless it's

favorable to your position.

I only believe what I can see.

Can you see the wind?

OK, I see what you're doing here.

Let me amend my statement.

I only believe what my five senses can detect.

So OK, I can't see the wind, but I can detect the effects

of the wind, the blowing of the leaves

and the the flowers waving.

So if you see branches moving, you say the wind did it.

But if you see a rogue man whose life is a mess who

has put his faith in an invisible God,

you discount that as evidence.

You see, you believe in the wind,

but you do not believe in a redeemed man.

Well, I thought you said you were throwing me a curveball.

It seems more like an underhanded toss to me.

OK.

Well, try this on for size.

Where does love and emotions come from?

Why do we appreciate beauty?

If we're just a bunch of chemical reactions,

how is a human capable of sacrificial love?

Love evolved to enable the humans to propagate

and to ensure survival.

Yeah, give me a break.

Lust does that.

Love goes way beyond hormonal expression.

You guys talk out both sides of your mouth

and manage to say nothing at all.

Well, gee, Jeweli, why don't you tell me how you really feel?

Or are you just demonstrating the emotions

that you want me to explain in evolutionary terms?

You know what?

This isn't working.

I'm never gonna reach you with my intellect

and rational arguments.

I found a quote that I think has to do with this situation

from Leo Tolstoy.

Most men can seldom accept even the simplest and most obvious

truth if it obliges them to admit the falsity of conclusions

which they have delighted in explaining to colleagues, which

they have proudly taught to others, which

they have woven thread by thread into the fabric of their lives.

And another from Winston Churchill--

men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them

pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.

Well, the truth about God and evolution

is not the most obvious.

Otherwise, people wouldn't have been fighting

about it over centuries.

But I hope you weren't thinking you were gonna bowl

me over with your platitudes.

You're the guy the Bible describes

as ever learning and never able to come

to the knowledge of the truth.

God's just gonna have to zap you with a bolt of the Holy Spirit.

Ooh, that sounds painful, and I'm not too fond of pain.

Yeah, I can relate.

I don't like banging my head up against a wall.

You know, it seems like we're in a Mexican standoff here,

so unless you want to accompany me to a place

where the Holy Spirit is manifesting,

I think we're done here.

What, does he not make house calls?

Trey, I don't need to be right.

I just need you to know that you are loved.

And yeah, he makes house calls.

But I think it would be best if we go to a place

where the Holy Spirit is moving in other people too.

I'm assuming you're talking about a church.

Yeah, no, thanks.

So no more gym sessions?

At 6:00 AM, that is.

I suggest you continue your workouts, just not with me.

Hey, good morning, boss man.

What's so good about it?

Oh, bad day at the gym, I take it.

Well, not for you.

You can just forget about me being corrupted by Little

Miss Goody Two Shoes anymore.

Oh, so you told her where she could put her religious shtick.

I like it.

No.

So then she told you where you can put

your punctuated equilibrium?

No!

No, no, no, no.

We just mutually agreed, we were butting heads,

and it was causing us a headache.

Hey, hold all my calls.

Trey, we don't have a switchboard,

and you have a cell phone.

Duh, Benji.

It was a joke.

I wasn't sure.

I thought maybe you were too distraught that you were

losing your grip on reality.

Me?

Me, distraught?

Yeah.

No, no, no.

This just so complicates my life so that I can go back to being

the carefree cabellero again.

All right.

Carefree caballero?

I don't know.

Wow, that's an interesting development.

I never even got a chance to put my fiendish plan into action.

Just what was your plot?

Confidential.

I may have to use it on you one day.

OK, brother.

Great, now I got to walk on eggshells

on both sides of the office.

Thanks, Tracy.

You're welcome.

I'm sorry, Sandy.

I can't-- I couldn't continue the way it was going.

I'm just not that strong.

Oh, Jeweli, Jeweli, no, don't-- don't worry about it.

You gave it your best shot.

And for that, we're really appreciative.

I mean, listen, I'm sure it had a positive effect on Trey.

You know, it's really ironic.

Some kids grow up never hearing about Jesus,

and they find him and rejoice.

And then, other kids grow up in Christian homes,

and they-- they just walk away from the best

thing in their life.

Someday-- Jeweli, someday they'll all find out.

I just hope it's not the day that every knee

bows and every tongue confess that Jesus is Lord.

I know.

Amen.

Well, will you continue to pray for him?

Yeah, that I can and will do.

You are a peach.

OK, listen, I am planning a trip to your fair city.

Now, I'm not sure that Trey is going to see me,

but I feel compelled to try.

I sure would love to meet you in person.

That would be wonderful.

Cool. Cool.

All right, well, I'll reach out then as

soon as my plans are finalized.

- Hey, Tracy. - Hey.

Did you finish that edit?

I did.

You want to go grab some coffee?

You buying?

Sure.

I never turn down free coffee.

So are you planning on telling me what's eating at you,

or did I just come here as eye candy?

I'm not sure.

I feel like I want to rant, but I figure I'll regret it if I do.

Well, go ahead and rant because if not,

you're gonna explode.

And I definitely don't wanna see you on the news.

Maybe so.

Have you ever been in love before?

Oh, whoa!

I did not see that coming.

I thought we were here to discuss your secret issues

and not pour out mine.

Just humor me here.

I'm trying to get a grasp on what love is.

OK.

I was in love once before--

when I was much younger though.

I mean, he was my everything, was my rising star.

And then he broke my heart.

And I decided then that I did not wanna take the risk

of that ever happening again.

Exactly.

I mean, I'm trying to figure out how these crazy emotions fit

into the evolutionary pattern.

I mean, it seems to me that they're a handicap.

Look at Mr. Spock on Star Trek.

His lack of emotions spared him from all the other drama

that the other crew experienced.

As he would say, emotions are illogical.

So why did we not evolve out of emotions if we had them before

or not evolve 'em in the first place?

Well, let me guess.

She posed the question about where does love come from.

Ah, she slipped right through your defense

of your scientific terms when it comes to that, right?

Exactly.

Oh no.

What?

She's here.

Look, I'm no expert at this, at all,

but I really think that you need to talk with her directly

about this question so you can get

this settled once and for all.

You know what?

Sit right here for me.

You wanted to see me?

No.

Yeah.

I don't know.

You're driving me crazy.

I'm driving you crazy?

I haven't even talked to you in a few days.

You should be recovered from the trauma

of interfacing with me by now.

Trauma?

If this is trauma, chain me to a wall.

You know, maybe I shouldn't tell you this,

but you really did rock my boat.

After I got into the car after our mutual parting

of ways, this--

this song came on--

My World Is Empty Without You, Babe.

And after a few almost sleepless nights,

it dawned on me that I'm missing something in my life.

It's not me.

It's not?

Are you sure?

Because no one's ever done this to me before.

I've never met anyone like you.

You have taken me way out of my box.

That's out?

Well, if you let me take you to a worship service tonight,

you'll find that it's not me you primarily long for.

That's an interesting proposal, I guess.

You know, I did some research on a couple of topics

in the field of evolution.

One was that question about emotions that you raised.

And the other was the metamorphosis of the caterpillar

into the butterfly.

Excellent example.

Could the master storyteller be giving

us a glimpse of the future?

A poor, drab little creature, forced to crawl upon the Earth,

build its own little tomb, and then

rises up in beautiful colors to flit and fly through the sky.

Well, that's-- that's not entirely accurate,

since some caterpillars are pretty colorful,

and some flying insects that use cocoons are pretty drab, but.

And as I was thinking about that, this--

this Robin Williams movie came to mind.

I don't remember the name of it, but he's grieving the murder

of his friend, and this butterfly

starts flying around his face.

Patch Adams.

Yeah, yeah, that's it.

So you think that God created insects

to look like that to testify to us of eternal life,

that we rise up out of our graves and are set free?

It makes sense to me.

And nothing about that process makes sense

in the light of evolution.

Well, again, I should point out

that there are lots of other insects

that use cocoons to protect their larvae.

I don't think that detracts from the butterfly's

message about eternal life.

You know, I told your dad that I had no desire

to be in a place like Heaven.

I know.

Maybe that was a bit rash.

Maybe I want to be like the butterfly.

But what I do know is, I'm not ready to go back into a church.

Yeah.

Well, you're in luck.

The worship service that I was talking about

takes place outside, and it will be super informal.

Hmm.

I-- I guess I could handle that.

What time?

7:00.

Would you like me to pick you up?

You're afraid I won't show up on my own.

No, just afraid that you'll get

lost on the way or something.

OK, pick me up at the studio.

All right, I'll be there at 6:30 with mosquito repellent.

But now I am found

Was blind

But now I see

Let's just close our eyes and rid all of our distractions

from our minds.

I feel like God is leading me to share

this message in this passage.

God is love.

And that loves is born of God and knows God.

This next song was not part of my list,

but I feel led to sing it.

O Lord my God

When I in awesome wonder

Consider all the worlds thy hands have made

I see the stars

I hear the rolling thunder

Thy power throughout the universe displayed

Then sings my soul, My Savior God, to Thee

How great Thou art

Then sings my soul, my Savior God, to Thee

How great Thou art

And when I think.

that God, his Son not sparing

Sent him to die

I scarce can take it in

That on the cross

My burden gladly bearing

He bled and died to take away my sin

Hey, Mom, when you've finished squeezing

the life out of Jeweli, can have a moment alone with her?

Sure.

Well, you were right, and you were wrong.

Excuse me?

I was needing someone else in my life besides you, someone

that I once had and let slip away.

But I guess my mind has been renewed because I'm

seeing things so clearly now.

I was a sucker, led down what seemed

to be a yellow brick road.

As the song goes, I was blind.

But now I see.

But even now, after I've come to my senses

and let God penetrate my armor again,

I still feel like I'm in love with you.

I mean, after all, it was you that made me believe that living

life forever wouldn't be such a bad thing if I could

do it with someone like you.

I don't know what to say.

I don't know.

Bottom line, I'd like permission to-- to date you.

Oh, wait, you don't date.

Permission to court you.

And if you want to spend all of our time going to church,

it's fine with me.

You're right.

I think it's not a good time to make decisions.

But I will ponder this request in my heart and pray about it.

Fair enough.

Jeweli, give me your answer due

I'm half crazy

All for the love of you.

Well, someone's awfully chipper this morning.

Let me guess.

Date went well?

It wasn't a date.

She doesn't date.

But OK, it was a wonderful time.

And now, I have some news that'll

probably not make you day.

Trey, why are you wearing that shirt?

Please tell me--

I'm taking down all my atheistic content.

All?

Well, I'll edit some of the videos that present pure science

dealing with evolution, but I'll point

out the flaws in my teaching.

Right, and who exactly is going to watch that garbage?

What happened, Trey?

Look, I don't really have the words to describe it, OK?

I renewed a vow that I made when I was

knee high to Shaquille O'Neal.

It was like a-- it was like I got

zapped by a bolt of electricity and-- and-- and a feeling

of liquid love being poured all over my body at the same time.

Liquid love?

That sounds like lyrics from a bad pop song.

I know, but it's just the first thing that came to mind.

I-- I still can't wrap my mind around it.

You do understand our subscribers

are gonna be like rats leaving a sinking ship?

Yeah, I know.

I'm probably gonna have to start looking for a day job now.

Which really translates to, Benjamin and Tracy,

you need to change your LinkedIn profiles to, looking for a job.

Look, I'm sorry, I made a new video explaining to everyone

and apologizing them for leading them astray

and warning them not to take the bait that

led me to the brink of hell.

I have to repair all the damage that I've done, guys.

Wow, so you just crossed over the river,

and there's no coming back.

Trey, you are intentionally going from a hero to a zero.

Why are you throwing everything away, for a woman, no less?

First of all, I didn't do it for any woman!

I did it for the creator of the universe.

I had an experience, Benji.

I felt God, and I can't deny it.

And a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man

with only an arguments.

So just like that, bam, you're one of them.

Someday, maybe you'll understand.

I've got enough severance pay saved up for you guys

for maybe a couple of weeks.

I'm sorry.

It's the most I can do.

I appreciate it.

I'd give you a hug goodbye, but I'm just not feeling it.

I understand, but I would appreciate it if you

guys would watch my new video.

Yeah, there is no chance of that happening.

Hey, Benji, this is for you.

Read it.

For the record, Trey, you're still knee high to Shaq.

Seems I shouldn't have convinced that babe

to clear the air with him.

You did what?

I thought you had a fiendish plan to keep 'em apart.

Yeah, I did.

But something caused me to go in a different direction.

I'll never understand this.

Yeah, well, that would make two of us, Tracy!

I'm surrounded by Benedict Arnolds.

Hey.

Can you share your table with me?

Of course.

The good doctor, what an honor.

I watched your video.

Impressive, especially when you described how a lamb can survive

the bite of a venomous snake.

And you compared the devil to the snake and the lamb of God.

It was amazing.

I also noticed your subscribers plummeted.

Yep.

Inevitable.

You know, your dad told me that if I made any confessions

to even the possibility of truth in design that I'd become

a traitor to many of my fans.

Well, it turns out he was right.

It's kind of painful to read some of the comments.

And I let my landlord know that I'll be vacating the studio

at the end of the month.

My income's gonna be dropping exponentially.

You won't be able to gain new subscribers and viewers?

Highly unlikely.

Speaking of my dad, I talked to him

after I watched the video.

And he thinks you could make some really great science

content for homeschoolers and help him with his movie scripts.

And I don't know how much money is in that,

but the opportunity is there.

Wow, I'm speechless.

What?

I was just wondering how soon you'd

be ready to take me to church?

Really?

Yeah.

Well, today is Wednesday.

Does your church have Wednesday evening services?

- We do. - Are you available tonight?

I am.

Pick me up at 6:30?

Wild horses couldn't keep me away.

Oh, I forgot.

My parents are in town.

Can I bring them along with me?

Yeah, parents, not cool on a date,

but more than welcome in a courtship.

Perfect.

Well, in the interim, I'll give your dad a call

and see what kind of havoc we can unleash

on the kingdom of darkness.

Lord, we come before you

Seated humbly at your feet

May your glory fill this place

Come and fill us with your love once again

Oh, Jesus, sweet Jesus

Come and fill us with your love

Master Savior, come and fill us with your love once again

Lord, we kneel before you

We give our hearts too

We long for your embrace

Come and fill us with your love once again

Oh, Jesus, sweet Jesus

Come and fill us with your love

Master, Savior, come and fill us with your love once again

Lord, we call out to you

Rekindle our love for you

May your presence fill this place

Come and fill us with your love once again

Oh, Jesus, sweet Jesus

Come and fill us with your love

Master, Savior, come and fill us with your love once again