Original subtitles

(silence)

- It was the seedy dark side

of Hollywood.

The part of Hollywood that you just go,

"Why does it have to be like that?"

Ya know?

- Everybody that worked on this film,

we all rolled the dice

thinking the game was fair, but it was rigged.

We gambled with our heart and our soul

and our artistic ability

to make a really good movie

the best we could with what we had.

- We were making a movie for

probably around $1,000,000

of the Fantastic Four

and you just, you can't do that.

You just can't.

But we did.

- The heart of this film and the intentions

behind this film

from the people who made the movie,

not the business interests,

the people who made the movie,

their intentions were pure.

They wanted to make a great Fantastic Four movie.

- This was gonna be a breakout movie

for a lot of us.

We make a film like this

about a huge franchise like the Fantastic Four,

then you're lookin' at an opportunity here to go,

"Hey man, ya know what?

"Look guys, we got a shot."

- I didn't know then, ya know,

all of the machinery that had been at work.

And that something so absurd like that,

that all this effort and time and all these,

all the work that went into making that film

and that it was never gonna see the light of day.

Strange.

Pointless.

Meaningless.

- I would hear, "You know, this film was never really

"intended to be a film."

And that infuriated me.

And I said, "Oh yeah?

"You watch."

(slow orchestral music)

- I am Joseph Culp.

- My name is Carl Ciarfalio.

- Hey there, my name is Jay Underwood.

- I'm Kat Green.

- I'm Rebecca Staab.

- My name's Michael Bailey Smith.

- I'm Alex Hyde-White, I played Reed Richards.

- And I played Doctor Doom.

- I played the Thing.

- And I played Johnny Storm, the human torch.

- I played Ben Grimm.

- I played Elisha Masters.

- And I play Susan Storm.

- Hi, I'm Oley Sassone,

I was the Director of the 1994

Roger Corman film, The Fantastic Four.

- Hi, I'm Mark Sikes and I was

the casting assistant.

- My name is Glenn Garland.

I was the editor.

- My name is John Vulich

and with Everett Burrell, I was co-owner

of Optic Nerve Studios that was responsible

for the makeup effects for Roger Corman's

Fantastic Four.

- I'm Jonathan Fernandez

and I was the Vice President of marketing

at Concorde New Horizons.

- I'm Chris Gore and I was the onset

journalist for most of the filming

on the Fantastic Four.

- I'm Sean Howe.

I'm the author of Marvel comics, the Untold story.

- I'm Lloyd Kaufman,

President of Troma Entertainment.

- I'm Roger Corman and I, together with

Bernd Eichinger, were the Executive Producers

of the original Fantastic Four.

The saga of the Fantastic Four

started in 1992.

Bernd Eichinger, a German producer

who was a friend of mine,

came to me, I think in September or October,

I think it was September of that year

and he said he had a problem

and maybe I could help him.

- I think it was somewhere in the early 90's,

maybe '92, I'm not sure,

but Bernd Eichinger did approach me

and was interested in having Troma Entertainment

make the Fantastic Four

on a low budget.

- He had the option for the Fantastic Four.

So, he asked me, "Can you and your guys

"at the studio make this picture

"for $1,000,000

"and start before the end of the year?"

And I remember, I just remember,

it was on a Friday and I said,

"Let me give it to the guys at the studio.

"They can work on it over the weekend.

"Let's meet Monday morning

"and I'll tell you if we can do it."

- Troma Entertainment was well known

and still is well known for making low budget movies.

The Toxic Avengers, internationally famous.

Class of Nuke 'Em High has had sequels

and Sergeant Kabukiman, NYPD is well known.

So, he thought perhaps,

Troma could produce the Fantastic Four

and Bernd and I had several conversations.

- The guys worked on it and they said,

"Yes, it's not going to be a $30,000,000 picture,

but we can make it look pretty good.

I said, "It doesn't make any difference.

"I just have to start shooting."

- I was uncomfortable.

I'm buddies with Stan Lee

and ya know, we have our own characters

and they just didn't seem to be very much in it

for us to make a crappy, low budget movie

of something that was kind of a religious thing.

It really wasn't terribly exciting.

Been more interesting or if I could've

made a shitload of money.

But there was nothing there for me

other than to alienate our fans

and possibly alienate Stan Lee.

- I knew there was a rush on the set

to start the movie

for reasons that were, I didn't know.

I just thought, well, isn't that always the case

in any Hollywood film?

You gotta be done.

You gotta meet your budget and your schedule.

The reasons for that, of course,

came out much later.

- When I was first handed the script,

I assumed it wasn't going to be ours.

Steve Rabner, who was an in-house producer

and attorney for Roger walked up to me in the hall

with a smile on his face and handed me

this script without saying a word.

He knew I had come from a comic book background

having worked in a comic book shop for years

and I collected comic books.

So, he knew the reaction he was going to get.

And I held the script in my hand

and it said the Fantastic Four

and I simply thought Universal or Warner Brothers

was producing and I was like,

"Who's doing this?"

And he said, "We are."

- There was a lot of excitement at the studio

about this movie.

Neue Constantin was gonna be putting in

like 750,000.

Roger was gonna put in 750,000.

So, we thought, okay that's more than normal.

- We were told this was gonna play in theaters.

So, that was really exciting because

when I came along, Roger Corman was mainly in

the direct to home video business.

So, this was a film that was gonna play

in movie theaters.

No one, no one, no one at Roger

thought that this film was not gonna be

playing across the country.

- It was blown away.

A little concerned.

Obviously, I knew the comic book

and I knew Roger very well

by this point.

I'd been, I'd grown up on his films.

(dramatic orchestral music)

And, here was a huge property.

Ya know, the Batman movie had come out,

but we were still more or less in the throws

of Captain America and The Punisher

and these not very successful superhero movies

of the 80's.

- What the fuck do you call 125 murders

in five years, huh?

- Work in progress.

- And here's the Fantastic Four

on a Roger Corman budget.

- The time, I think our expectation

for Marvel characters in movies was pretty low.

I think the best thing, by then, was ya know,

maybe The Incredible Hulk Show.

(growling)

So, that was the best Marvel, ya know,

character brought to real life.

Ya know, so our expectations were low.

The Captain America movie.

I mean, this was, for Marvel movies,

this was the dark times.

So, the fact that they were even in costume,

the fact that there was even a couple of shots

of Mr. Fantastic stretching out his arm, ya know?

Ya know what,

I just sat there as a fan saying,

"Ya know, I'll take what I can get."

- One of the worst things of my childhood

in teen years was Daredevil on

The Incredible Hulk.

And Thor, who I was a huge fan of.

And then on The Incredible Hulk,

they turn him into a surfer dude

who is just embarrassing.

It showed that they either didn't care about the comic

or they didn't know about it.

- So, by 1992, it looks like

Marvel finally can't lose.

Jim Karen is going to do

the Amazing Spiderman

for Carolco, that's exciting.

Wesley Snipes is signed up to be

the Black Panther.

Wes Craven is all set to direct

Doctor Strange.

These are big names and these are

going to become big properties.

It's sure.

Ya know, they can't lose, finally.

- So, when I read the first,

well the draft of the script that was

circulated early on,

that draft embodied early Fantastic Four.

I thought it was wonderful.

- Gave me the script and I thought the script

was great.

I thought the guys, ya know, Craig Nevius,

the script I thought was spot on.

And the first thing I did was go to

the Golden Apple comic book store

on Melrose Avenue and picked up

the reproduction of Issue number one.

So, I wanted it to be as authentic as what

Jack Kirby and Stan Lee had envisioned.

- The first several drafts

of maybe four total,

because we move fast,

were the Mole Man.

Well, as I recall, there was some issue

over the rights to the character of the Mole Man.

They may have had rights to the Fantastic Four

and it was okay to use Doctor Doom.

So, the jeweler changed from the Mole Man.

Whenever Marvel licenses projects,

unless it's an in-house Marvel Studios project,

there's a certain limitation put on.

You can't just take everybody,

otherwise they would have had the rights

to the Silver Surfer and the Black Panther

and anyone else who'd ever appeared in Fantastic Four.

So, when they did this,

it was a very limited right

and I think it's also suggestive of the fact

that Marvel would have preferred the movie

never be made.

While Steven Spielberg was making Jurassic Park,

Roger Corman was making Carnosaur.

So, Marvel couldn't have been thrilled.

So I'm sure they were not

going to be generous with licensing

any extra characters that weren't

very clearly covered in the option in the agreement

with Neue Constantin.

And I was relieved early to find out

that it was a co-production and we knew also

at the company that when it was a co-production,

we knew the money would actually get spent

on the movie.

So, it meant this would be a slightly better film

than we were used to.

Still a little scary.

- It was my understanding that Neue Constantin

was going to put up half the money

and then Roger was going to put up the other half,

but Roger's half was going to be with services.

Like I don't know how much he was renting

his studio for.

I don't know how much he was paying

some of the people who were on staff.

I don't know if he actually put in the budget

$850 a week for an editor

or if he actually paid the,

put down the going rate for an editor,

which was probably three or four times that.

So, ya know, I'm not sure actually how much

Roger ended up putting in.

- The hardest thing when you're selling a Roger Corman film

is to create brand awareness.

What the studios can do is, they can put

Tom Cruise's face on their poster,

say TOM CRUISE and that's marketing campaign.

We couldn't do that.

We didn't have stars of that name,

but when you came up with a name like

the Fantastic Four and when you create a poster

like we did, which was the comic book heroes,

we could compete on an equal playing field

with the big boys.

- We've got a first draft,

a deal with Neue Constantin,

and the need for

a mold for the Thing.

- I went in and it was mostly a body look.

They took a look at me and they said,

"Yeah, he's the right height,

"ya know, his eyes are the right color,"

'cause they want the eyes to show through the mask.

And I think I was one of the first ones they called or cast

because they needed to make the suit.

And only one 'cause that's what the budget called for,

but two head pieces.

One was all rubber for going through walls

and doing fights

and the other one was a serval motor

on the inside of a skull mask.

- We had to do a complete suit

with an animatronic head.

We were trying really as hard as possible

to remain faithful, basically Jack Kirby era

where we tried to copy as closely as possible

that look 'cause we kinda felt that was the definitive

classic period.

Ya know, tried to modernize it

and make it a little bit more realistic

and natural and the comics,

ya know, always tend to vary a little bit

from panel to panel so there's some room

for interpretation, but with The Thing

and with Doctor Doom, Kirby was the era

that we were really kinda striving for

and was our major source of inspiration.

- When I went to the guys that made that,

I said, "Look, you gotta understand something

"about The Thing.

"The Thing is, he's damaged goods.

"He's psychologically damaged."

So, I said, "We've got to get that in his face."

To the credit of the guys that made the head,

which was all serval motors,

they gave that rubber face expression.

And they made you feel like,

"Oh my God, that guy, he's pathetic."

He wasn't just a mean.

So, they could change the expression

where he was sad and sympathetic

to like clobbering time

and that was brilliant.

- I played a lot of bad guys,

played a lot of these guys

and I've even had my head crushed.

Ya know, in the movie Casino.

- I got your head in a fuckin' vice.

Squash your fuckin' head like a grapefruit.

- I was fortunate enough to be cast in the role

of Tony Doggs and he's the guy that gets his head

stuck in a vice and Joe Pesci spits and twists.

Until the eyeball pops out.

- Then the Doctor Doom suit,

a lot of it was just the fabric and cloth.

We just had to make like the arms and legs

and the helmet for him

and all those were mostly done with

vacu-form plastic that we would get sculptures

of the armor on top of a person.

Took molds off that and made some

plaster positives, the plaster shapes

that we took over to a vacu-form machine

and made it plastic and riveted together.

Because of the design of Doctor Doom,

it was okay to show the rivets,

so we didn't even bother to hide those.

They kinda fit the style that we're

seeing in the comic books.

- Wearing this suit was,

is still one of the great

challenges of my acting career thus far.

Ya know, once it was on and the mask was on

and the tunic and the cape

and the belt and the gun

and everything was put together

and there I was clanking around the Corman stages.

It was,

no other way to describe it,

a grueling experience.

- So, the casting director on Fantastic Four

was Laura Schiff.

Laura knew my background in comics,

as did Steve Rabner.

We released the breakdown in November,

which means we went out to agents and managers

to let them know, "We're makin' a movie.

"Here are the characters.

"This is what we need.

"There's no money, big surprise."

And then we received thousands

of head shots.

- After we had them come in, we said,

"Ya know, this is a good pairing."

And that's what you start to do.

You start taking pictures down

from people that come in with their head shots

and you start laying 'em side by side.

You start looking at 'em and going,

"Well, that one, that one, that one."

- Jay Underwood, if I'm not mistaken,

read for the Fantastic Four one time.

He was a producer, director read

because he had very good credits at that point.

- You know what a hatchet is, don't ya, Bug?

- It's an axe?

- And it was maybe two weeks away

from the start of production

with Christmas right in the middle of that.

- So, I had the audition on December 14th, 1992.

Within a few days, they had called

and just cast me, which was cool.

I didn't have to go in for callbacks.

- Heya Doc.

Ready to go?

- And then we were, gosh,

we were shooting by, I think it was December 28th, 1992.

So, it was a fairly quick process.

- And I think part of the terms

was you gotta make it, you gotta make it quickly.

And if a producer like Roger or anybody,

"You're gonna make a film."

You say they gotta make it quickly

and the money is telling you that

you've gotta make it quickly.

- I really wanted the role

for Victor Von Doom,

aka Doctor Doom

and I thought, "Well, okay."

Then now I'm gonna pull out all the stops.

I went in there and commanded the space.

And I came out with this character

that commanded space and time.

And I just went

as far as I could

and then I felt a surge of energy.

Maybe it was Colossus himself.

And it surged up through my body

and I thought, "I'm scared and I love it."

(laughter)

And scene, that's acting.

- To have an acting partner in the early part of the

schedule as Joseph and I,

we complimented each other.

- Not unlike myself, son of a well known actor

and so, I think we had a certain kinship about that.

- So, I think it was that,

these are these two guys who

came together and the

Victor Reed early relationship

is a result of that.

- After I got the audition,

I didn't know that much about Fantastic Four.

So, I needed to do a little research

and I went to this comic book store

and looked up all the Fantastic Four.

My initial reaction was just,

we see pictures of Sue Storm and at the time,

my hair was like shoulder-length and blonde.

I was like, "(gasp) She looks like me."

So, it was that immediate, "Oh, this'll be good."

- No, I got this call,

"Hey, we want you to ya know, audition for

"this movie called the Fantastic Four.

I thought, "Okay, good."

I'm Ben Grimm.

Well Ben Grimm's sort the Thing.

I'm gonna do the whole character.

And then, when I found out that

they already hired the stunt guy,

I'm like, "What?"

I was pissed.

I was really frickin' pissed.

(evil laughter)

- Seems loverboy's not quite himself today.

Kill him.

- Even though, later on, I understand

the reason why.

- And Michael's like 6'5".

I mean, he's tall and broad.

So, it's funny, if you watch the movie close enough,

when Ben morphs into the Thing,

instead of being Ben morphing out into the Thing,

it's Ben and he kinda morphs into,

then he morphs a little littler,

smaller because he was just so big to begin with.

So, I just think, if it would have jumped backwards

and if that suit was actually built on Michael,

that would have been huge.

- They had me auditioning for the role of Alicia

And I went in there

and I'm from New York originally

and that's sort of where I studied acting

and so, I was more of a theater actor at the time.

So, coming into a room of ya know,

Hollywood models, I was very intimidated

and I was shorter than them.

So, I go in there and I do this scene

and I remember it was a pretty emotional scene.

They wanted me to go sort of over the top

and be, ya know, very emotional in it.

So, I did the audition and they were like,

"Wow, where are you from?

"You can actually act."

So, I kinda think that they were seeing

like a lot of models who maybe couldn't act or something

and I'm like, "I'm not that good."

- So, we started casting

on December first, 1992

and I know this because

I throw nothing away and I have the original

sign-in sheet from 1992

and it says December first, 1992,

Fantastic Four.

Victor Von aka Doctor Doom.

And it's interesting to note

some of the people who auditioned for us

on this little film back then.

One day, we saw Mark Ruffalo,

who would find fame later on

in another Marvel franchise.

We saw Renee O'Connor.

We read Nick Cassavetes for Victor Von Doom

and Titus Welliver,

who is now a huge television star.

We read Melora Walters.

For the role of Ben Grimm,

we read Patrick Warburton.

- After we all got casts, the director,

Oley Sassone, he wanted everybody

to just get together at least for one meeting

to kinda just touch base because this was quick,

ya know, I mean this is a incredibly short amount of time

to accomplish what you think would be

huge for a sci-fi movie,

a comic book movie.

So, we all go to Oley's house.

And his pep talk to us was,

"Okay gang, here we all are,

"and we realize that there was not

"the money involved for this production

"that normally, a movie of this kind or caliber

"would need to pull off,

"especially all the special effects."

- Oley had some very strong ideas about

how this guy, ya know, he wanted to see

the tyrant.

He wanted to see the king.

He even told me later, he says,

"You know how Mussolini, ya know,

"would stand on those balconies

"and he would gesture like this and

"humhumhum and then cross his arms

"and he just had this pomp to him?"

And Oley said, "I wanna go for that, go for it."

(upbeat music)

- The fact that it happened so quickly

from the time we were hired to the time

we went into production,

we didn't really think of that as a red flag

or ya know,

unbeknownst to us, we had to do it because

they were on a deadline to get a film shot

before a certain date

or Constantin was gonna lose the rights

to the project with Marvel.

But we didn't have any clue to that.

They were just saying,

"We're gonna fast track this movie.

"Let's get it cast, let's get it shot, let's go."

- The reasons for that, of course came out much later

and I think weren't known to anyone

that was involved in actually making the movie.

- So, there wasn't any reason for any of us

to think at this point, that there was

anything else going on other than,

we're making this movie.

Roger Corman's making this movie.

There's this company, Neue Constantin,

that's on board that's making this movie

and the movie will get made and come out.

- You know, when you're lucky enough to work

as a young actor sort of learning your craft

as a padowan in the world

and you can become part of

Concorde New Horizons stable, Roger,

and then you start working like right up to Christmas

and maybe you'll have a day off,

but you gotta come and hurry back,

you gotta figure that there's something else

here as well.

- So, I had no idea that this turmoil with

Constantin and Corman and

all that crap was going on, ya know, I mean,

put me in the suit and throw me down.

- I wasn't really gonna

busy myself speculating about why is this film

being made or why does any film get made, ya know?

Certainly not for the reasons that

this one, I guess, did.

- And actually, prior to shooting,

one of the producers and I went up to

Steve Rabner and I went over to

Constantin Films offices and sat

in a conference room with them

and for some reason, they were really curious

to know how I was gonna make the movie.

In hindsight, I go, "Why did they even bother?"

- There was no rumors,

no nothing in the wind

that this movie wasn't going full steam ahead

and one of my most vivid recollections

is how this film was going to be different.

Everyone at the company, myself included,

believed this film would get a theatrical release.

It was guaranteed.

Now, way up at the top, maybe they weren't

planning that, but all of us were.

- We're going to do some business.

I would hope that it would be

spectacular business, but hopes have been dashed before.

But I do think we had a very good chance.

- I met the rest of the cast on the first day.

There was no table read.

There was no time for any of that.

- There was no rehearsal before shooting

and usually, there was really no rehearsal

when we were shooting.

It was primarily blocking.

- Miss Storm?

- Behind you.

And so, whether it was the,

ya know, the going invisible

and it's like, "Stand there like this.

"Okay, then you drop out of it

"and then they shoot it."

Then it's like, "Okay, come back up."

I mean, it was just that basic.

- And with Roger Corman, no monitor.

We didn't have a monitor when we were

working with Roger Corman.

Roger Corman, we had an old, ARRI BL

and short-end film stock.

We didn't even have film stock that had

the same emulsion numbers.

- We were together all the time

and so, even when we weren't on set,

it's not like, oh everybody would split off

and go do their own stuff.

We hung out together

and then, Joseph, being Doctor Doom,

Joseph was usually never in the room with us.

He was in, I guess there was like another

dressing room or something like that

and he was solitary and would always be studying.

- I think the cast members for this film,

particularly all the leads were

so genuinely involved in the characters

of the Fantastic Four.

- Look at you.

The Fantastic Four.

- They came to the set

so well prepared and with such enthusiasm.

- Alex was always ya know, organized, in charge.

I mean, he had all of the answers.

- 99,000.

- 792.458.

- Which was so Reed Richards.

I mean, he took a real leadership role

and he likes that and it was really good because

you would trust him, you'd let him,

he was just the absolute natural leader.

- And Alex had been around probably

the industry, ya know, longer than anybody else

kind of thing and so, he kind of just

took on that leader role.

- Alex's character, Reed, ya know,

I had a mad crush on.

So, of course, you're terribly shy with him.

Anywhere you wanna go,

I'm there.

I mean, it's so funny, it just still gives me goosebumps.

Isn't that funny?

'Cause just that feeling of,

ya know, you're so normal around everyone else

and then the one person that makes your heart

pitter-patter, you just get, you can't talk.

- The great thing about Roger,

at the lumber yard in Venice,

with people like Jonathan Demme,

all these wonderful folks we met have come through,

is that you felt that it was a right of passage

to be playing a lead role

and therefore, the actors who would

playing those lead roles,

Michael Bailey Smith,

Joseph Culp, Jay Underwood,

Rebecca,

were good actors.

Good in the sense that they had been

working, they had earned this spot.

You see, you can't just be a good actor

and expect Roger to embrace you.

You need to instill in him the confidence

that you can do it under his schedule and his budget,

which really means technically, you need to be good.

- This is always a scientific explanation for everything.

Ain't that right, Ben?

- What should we do?

- First thing we're gonna do is get some rest.

Maybe we can think more clearly in the mornin'.

- Whether those are the characters

in a comic book or not, I would argue that,

"Yeah, when you're good, it doesn't really matter."

Because we will make that set work.

- And then there's the studio,

the Venice stage, as we called it.

And the studio is movie history.

It's fabulous.

- We were in a condemned barn.

The fire marshal had told us, ya know,

had told Roger, you need to tear that down.

It's not safe.

- And it was kind of in this little industrial section,

ya know, it's not driving onto,

ya know, Sony Studios or Warner Brothers

or ya know, you go through the big studio gates

and ya know, like, "Wow, wow, wow."

It's just this little warehouse

in a non-descript warehouse kind of neighborhood.

And you turn in and you go,

"There's a studio here?"

- You open a door to one of the editing bays

and on the back of the door, which they normally

kept closed, is a sign that says,

"This building has been condemned."

- So, at the beginning,

you either made the choice

to go, "Hey, we are gonna jump on board

"and do the best we can

"and have a good attitude about it,"

or you're going to have the attitude

that I'm gonna whine and complain

because ya know, "It's dirty," or "It's not big enough,"

or ya know, "My dressing room's ya know,

too small," or "There's ants over here."

- And we did have a cat named Lucy

that was a, was pest control

because we would have rats crawling

behind all the sound blankets.

There were sound blankets all over the editing room

and you'd see the sound blankets sort of

pushing forward as

rats would go, ya know, in the sound blankets

and Lucy would chase after them

and then she would, ya know,

she grew to love us, so she would bring us presents.

- And the joke was watch your step

because you've been warned.

This is condemned for a reason.

- And they were recycling a set

from the movie called Carnosaur

and a lot of this stuff was, ya know, foam.

And it does look cheap.

- And then, the film would be over

and we would

get a can of paint

and maybe some dixie cups,

staple them to the wall,

paint them and you have a funky looking

futuristic, high-tech, sci-fi laboratory

that as long as you never shoot it in closeup,

it looks fine.

- While we were filming the movie,

they started bringing reporters around the set.

The one that gave us the cover

and did us the greatest service

was a magazine called Film Threat.

- Chris Gore was on the set for the entire shoot!

And at that moment, Film Threat

felt like it was gonna break big.

We thought Film Threat was gonna be

the next big fan magazine.

It was gonna be Fangoria.

It was gonna be Famous Monsters of Filmland

and he was terrific.

He came on set and he wrote a great piece.

- I believe I was the only journalist

that was on set during the entire

filming of the movie.

I don't think anybody really knew

that this movie was happening.

There wasn't a lot of buzz or press about it

other than maybe

a line or two in the trades that it was being made.

While I might have officially been on the set

as a journalist, I really didn't care.

I was there really as a fan.

Seeing those characters for the first time

is just one of those things where,

I got very emotional

because it just brought me back to my childhood.

The more time I spent on the set,

unfortunately, the realization began to sink in

that this was a Roger Corman production.

So, maybe it wasn't going to be

quite as big budget as say,

Richard Donner's Superman.

While both films are similar in the sense

that they used Spandex as the,

to costume the superpowered characters,

the craftsmanship

on the Fantastic Four left something to be desired,

unfortunately.

- I know there are times when you see

our number and it's kind of tucked

below our belt, like our belt's

coming up over the number, you know?

And it's just not quite right

or if there was a closeup, you could kinda see

that they were just kinda sewn on.

- And Oley's like,

"But you made these."

Well, what do you think?

He just really,

just own it.

I mean, Sue went out and sewed these

if you really think about it.

Sue made these.

I had no idea what this costume designer

had as a budget for this film,

but it was next to nothing.

I mean, this guy had, all the clothes,

they're all my clothes, everything that I wear

is mine, except for the wedding dress

and the Fantastic Four thing

and when we had the Hazmat, the yellow things on

and the space suits.

- That's when they pulled out,

(laughter)

they pulled out some spacesuits for us to wear.

And you go, "You've got to be kidding me."

Oh my word.

Cheeseball low budget spacesuits.

That was funny, that was funny.

- I did see the limousine shot as it drove away

and this big bendy arm come up and do this

and I went, "Oh."

That's interesting.

I'm not so sure about that effect.

(laughter)

- Stan Lee came out to the set

when we were shooting this film

because you have to go back and remember,

they were not doing the big budgeted

Marvel movies and this was, ya know,

one of his babies

that was being filmed.

- He, at the time, seemed enthused enough

about it, ya know, I don't know

what was really going on in his mind.

- Between takes, he come up to me and he said,

he goes, "Michael, I have to tell you,

"you are what I envisioned Ben Grimm to be."

I'm like, "Okay, that's pretty cool."

And I, at the time, didn't really know

the gravity of that, what that meant,

and I didn't really know Stan Lee as much as

how huge of an icon he is.

So that really meant a lot.

- I have to say, I didn't know who he was

at the time, but then after meeting him

and then the other people telling me,

"You met Stan Lee?"

Then I realized, oh okay.

He's a big deal.

- I think that he was a presence on the set.

Wasn't there but Stan Lee was a presence

and I think every single level production

kept that in mind.

- And then when we did the whole

San Diego Comic Con,

he was already on some other project.

I don't know what it was and someone asked him,

"So, what do you think about the Fantastic Four?"

And he says, "Well, I don't think much of it."

And when we heard that, that really hurt.

I mean, we're like, "Are you kidding me?"

And then we felt like, "Okay, now it's us

"against the world."

- People don't usually remember after they

get the check.

It's actually better.

Stan Lee, for God's sake,

he'll pretend now that it,

"What, no, that's never made.

"Absolutely never.

"I would not allow that."

Oh yeah?

How many times did you visit the set

of our film, Stan?

You have a nice time?

Yeah.

He brought the donuts once.

Okay?

- A Fantastic Four movie in the works.

It is not only in the works, it's just about finished.

It'll be released sometime, I think,

at the end of this year.

I'm not expecting too much of it.

It's the last movie to be made

that we, in Marvel, had no control over.

Our lawyers just gave the rights to Roger Corman

to do the movie.

And there will be no other projects like that.

Everything after that, we're doing ourselves.

- The end of production

happened unceremoniously.

- I don't think there was ever a cast and crew screening.

I don't think there was an official wrap party even,

which is always not a very good sign.

- We definitely were cutting as quickly as we could.

This was on film, nothing was digital.

We were cutting on movieola's.

So, we were workin' fast.

If you start cutting on the first day,

usually you have your assembly done

a week after principle.

And then you start working with the director.

- We made movies fast, which means

we edited them fast

and my first sign that something was up

with the Fantastic Four

was the time, the duration

between screenings.

All of a sudden, we weren't screening

Fantastic Four anymore.

- They just kinda let it languish in post

for some reason.

And we were scratching our heads going,

"Wait a minute, Roger's cut a trailer.

"He's showing a trailer in the movie theaters.

"But why are we not finishing the movie?"

- My feeling is like, if I'm going to do a movie,

it becomes my baby along with the director

and so, ya know,

we're going to keep working on it.

Ya know, however much we can

until it's pried away from our hands.

- My editor and I, Glenn Garland,

I had been hired before the Fantastic Four was finished

to go make another movie for another company in town

and while I was editing that movie,

after everybody left the production office,

I'd take that movie off the flatbed reels

and put the Fantastic Four up.

So, we were actually posting and finishing the movie

sort of in a clandestine sort of operation

just to get the film done.

- Something was starting to take shape

of an unknown quantity,

perhaps a secret,

perhaps people not being told all the facts,

some non-disclosure,

hard to tell.

- I remember Steve Rabner, ya know,

got a bit annoyed with me because I started

calling a lot and saying,

"Hey, what about stills?"

And, "Hey, what about, I want a mask?"

And, "Hey, when are we doing Doom's Last Shot?"

- Here's to the future, my friend.

- Which was him falling, ya know,

into the green screen below

and he goes, "Well, we'll let ya know."

Really, he was just putting me off.

Like, "Oh, I got a crazy actor here."

- The head of post production for

Roger Corman at the time was

sneaking stuff out to us

and getting it snuck into the lab

under some other film titles.

- Ya know, Roger did continue to pay me

my salary and not put me on

one of his other movies

because I believe that Oley felt that

it was very important we become

very close collaborators at that point

and were very closely aligned on the visual effects.

So, I think he felt that he needed,

ya know, somebody who was going to be

his right hand man through this

really hard battle that we were going through.

So, we started with a FX supervisor

who had got in the job on the Fantastic Four originally

because he claimed to have done

the visual effects for Independence Day.

- [Voiceover] Flame on!

- I think we realized pretty early on

that maybe he was one of the artists,

but he was not the visual effects supervisor.

I believe it seemed that he was

way over his head.

- I think he was a little nuts actually.

He talked a big game and

he had all this equipment,

but he was just a strange guy.

He didn't really know what the hell he was doing.

He didn't have any clue.

- It seemed that he was going to try to

deliver stuff that he couldn't possibly deliver.

He had all this pie in the sky idea

of all these great visual effects

and we were turning over shots to him

to start doing visual effects very early on

and we were waiting and waiting and waiting

and then he would send us something

and we'd say, "That's totally unacceptable."

So, we went back and forth with visual effects

for a long, long time.

- And at the end of the day, he would just kinda,

he would just abandon us.

- We ended up going to a place called Mr. Film

and this guy, he was fantastic.

He worked so hard and he gave us

as much as he possibly could.

We would have loved to keep working on it

and making them better.

However, ya know, there was not,

there was no money to continue.

- It was all over with.

There was no more money coming from Corman.

It was over, it was just, ya know,

and we'd just finished it.

- Hang on, Victor.

- Literally, I went to Mike Elliott,

the producer there at the time

and said, "Mike, I gotta go shoot

"a scene of Doctor Doom sitting on a throne

"so Mr. Film can do something in post

"in the computer world and put it in the movie."

- Very good.

- And he said, "Well, what do you need?"

I said, "I needed like two rolls of film and a camera."

(laughter)

So, he loaned the two rolls of film and a camera

and then, later on, we were post

and editing the film, he said,

"Man, you know what,

"we need one more scene with

"the Thing out there in the world."

- So, the film wrapped production

at the end of January 1993

and the next I hear, Steve Rabner comes to me

and says, "How would you like to be The Thing?"

(ominous music)

- That was you!

- [Voiceover] Told him no permit.

Totally gorilla, it was awesome.

- Brother!

- It was awesome and hot.

- Yeah and we had the two girls at the outside

under the building and we were looking

for any place that had light.

Ya know, that had any kind of light

so I could expose the negative.

- [Voiceover] Hollywood and Vine.

- [Voiceover] Yeah brother.

- [Voiceover] I remember it well.

(laughter)

I would hate to be in that suit.

- That was you, man.

Wow.

- Roger Corman gorilla shooting at it's best.

(dramatic music)

- We were just sort of making the movie

ourselves and trying to get it done

through hell or high water

and get it ready for our sound.

We just had to live with what we had.

- Pitiful.

You are pitiful.

- And then I did go in to do the looping

because I knew, ya know, we were gonna

have to record Doom's speeches

and a lot of it to really create a sound

and Oley was on another gig and

I talked to him on the phone and he said,

"Yeah, yeah, the stuff that we really need,

"we're gonna get but I really like the sound

"of your voice in the mask."

And when I came to the looping session

and I heard it, I went, "Oh no, the sound of the mask

"is not good."

I said, "No, no, no, we should do the whole thing."

- I have hatred.

Unbearable hatred for you.

- I didn't have the pages for everything

and they weren't, by anyone recording everything.

- Look at it!

See it!

- Umm, I don't know.

That was a call, a judgement call

that I never agreed with

and I do regret that the film

as we do see it now, ya know,

has those sound issues

and it's not lost on anybody.

There are times when Doom sounds

perfectly lucid and then, there are these shots

where it's like, ya know, you hear him like,

(mumbling speech)

and you can't hear what he's saying.

I've always been annoyed at that

and I will continue to be until we fix it.

- So I went back and did like, I don't know,

two days or whatever in a sound stage

doing the voicing over The Thing's stuff.

- It's clobber time

for real.

- Of course they put a little tweak on it too

after but you will notice, in the film,

that they forgot to put the tweak on the voice

right at the end.

If you watch when Reed Richards

and Sue Storm get married,

they come outta the church and they

walk down the stairs.

It's the part where Ben goes, "Hey guys,"

ya know, "Give em some room."

- Hey, come on guys.

Give 'em some room, huh?

- They didn't tweak it, so it's my voice

without it tweaked.

So, they forgot that part for some reason.

I pointed it out to Oley.

He goes, "Oh, I have to go back and look at that."

- The composers came in, David and Eric Wurst,

those two brothers did a brilliant, brilliant job

with the music for this film.

- They did a fantastic job.

I was like, "This movie has potential."

- And they took money out of their own pocket

and hired, I think it was a 40-piece orchestra

and we went into the Capital Records building

in the studio where Frank Sinatra recorded

and did all the music for the Fantastic Four

down there and I was there.

I sat in the room with them

while they conducted a 40-piece orchestra

for the music for this little movie.

And they paid for it.

They didn't get that much money

to do the soundtrack.

I think they paid an extra six or $8,000

out of their own pocket to make this work

'cause they were so enthusiastic about the project.

They liked the film and I think

everybody was doing this too

for another reason and another motive,

which was, ya know, getting a big break

on this movie that could put us,

ya know, up the ladder in the business

where we could start getting bigger and better movies.

- Part of the myth of this film is that

Oley Sassone was the illegitimate son

of Vidal Sassone and that's not true,

but I only found that out about a year or two ago.

Oley, he was great, ya know?

He was short changed.

He was gypped.

He's the guy, he's the guy

who would have had

and I don't know, I'm sure he's,

I know he's done work,

he made films, but, he deserved it.

He deserved this film even if it were

to be taken away from him.

He deserved a chance to make bigger films.

- I got the sense from Oley

that he was doing a much bigger picture

than I had even thought this was.

Ya know, that he really thought this was gonna be

this big blockbuster.

- So, we all were looking at it as being

something that could certainly help our careers.

That hey, this could really be a stepping stone

and Oley looked at it the same way.

- I can't take it any more.

Look, we've gotta get outta here, huh?

- Just maybe, this film then,

could actually do something for all of us

even career wise.

- I do distinctly remember that at that time

in my career, it looked, felt, smelt,

like a break.

You're gonna carry

action, adventure, light,

comedy, sci-fi,

and it's gonna get the big treatment because

Marvel or Neue Constantin is partnering with Roger.

They were under the gun to make it.

There's more money than there's ever been

for a Roger Corman movie

and we were expecting that the follow through.

One thing to make it in three or four weeks,

it's okay, it's not a hard script.

But the follow through, the editing,

the CGI, the music, whatever it's going to be,

I think there was an expectation

that that would continue to only get better.

- So, the months went by.

I did some other projects and acted in various things

and then, I got word that we were going

to start promoting the film.

They brought me a huge box of stills

of Doctor Doom.

It was July 1993, film was

in post-production, let's say.

Probably more accurately, it was in post production limbo

and I get the call from the marketing people,

"How would you like to introduce

"the Fantastic Four, the cast,

"to the LA Shrine Auditorium?

"It'll be the Los Angeles Premiere.

"We're gonna show the trailer.

"The cast'll be there, you'll do a big appearance."

- We were screening the trailer at the Shrine Auditorium

or the comic book convention.

The line was out the door and around the block.

- I've never seen such a crowd at the

Shrine Auditorium and I'm there

every few months for the comic book conventions.

- And here we were, we're the guys.

We're the team, ya know?

There's Fantastic Four and Doctor Doom.

We're signing autographs and there's fans coming up.

I'll never forget, never forget,

I learned a lot from Alex Hyde-White 'cause

he was a really good promoter

and I remember the long line of people

and I'm sitting next to Alex and this kid,

ya know, 10-year-old kid or whatever

came up and he waited in line to get there

and he got on the microphone and goes,

"I just wanted to ask you

"what was it like playing Doctor Doom?"

And I picked up my mic and I went, "Great."

He went, "Thanks."

And he went off and Alex goes,

"Oh God, kid waited in line all that time

"and that's all you gave him."

And I went, "Oh God, you're right."

So, he really taught me something there.

It's like, "Hey, do a little spiel,

"do something for him."

And so now, you see that I talk,

ya know, ad nauseum.

- And then, Alex and Michael and even

some of the other cast members

now and again would do convention appearances

and I was pretty sure

Roger wasn't paying for these appearances.

- So, a funny thing happened to me

when we finished the film.

I found out that I really liked this character.

I liked me and of course like, ya know,

I started from a place of losing a house and a divorce

and all this stuff and the part rescued me.

It's wonderful and I identified, ya know?

And I thought, come on, let's

spread this good feeling.

And funnily enough and this is when I knew

something was up, Roger said,

"Well Alex, I can't underwrite any of it,

"but I can give you about 1,000 stills."

And to this day, I probably have 150

of them left.

It's me and Rebecca and I look like Buster Crab

in these black and whites.

My gosh, we toured New York City comic book store.

We went to a convention in Florida.

We went to Charlotte, I can't remember.

The Thing head would be, "Oh, we can pay

"for the Thing to be transported."

You couldn't pay for us, but the suit and the box,

couple hundred bucks would go.

- So, we hired a publicist

and I end up paying for it.

And that's what we started doing.

We started going around to the conventions

and the comic book stores

and meeting everybody and went to children's hospitals,

radio interviews, we did everything possible

to promote this thing.

- If I were asked how and why did you put together

a sort of a grass roots publicity tour

on your own dime to promote this film,

my answer, first of all, would be I don't know

and as Reed Richards, I'd say,

"Because it seemed like a good idea

"and I had to figure out how to do it."

- Alex and I, he and I are the ones

that did most of the stuff and really

spearheaded everything and I was

kind of the money guy, ya know?

I was the naive guy, I guess you'd call it,

which I don't regret whatsoever.

I do not regret, ya know, I spent

like 12 grand of my own money.

I would do it again in a heartbeat

if I had a shot at it.

I really would.

I think it's a good, just money well spent.

- There's no profit in it

and there shouldn't be.

The profit in it is we're giving away pictures

of the movie, we're promoting the film,

we're sewing the seeds for a fan reaction.

- And so, it was all, ya know,

the juggernaut seemed to be starting.

- So, when our cover story came out,

we had a table at Comic Con

in 1993

and we had a television set up where

we had a two hour VHS loop playing the trailer.

(ominous music)

- It's clobberin' time.

- I can still, in my head, hear the trailer

in two-minute chunks

playing in my brain with the music

from Battle Beyond the Stars.

We had the cast of the Fantastic Four there,

which ended up being a mob scene

and I know that we sold, that weekend,

probably 2,000 copies of the Film Threat magazine

cover story with the Fantastic Four

and everyone at that table,

ya know, the whole cast, they were so

nice to everyone.

In particular, Michael.

He would sit and talk to every person

and I remember him saying when people asked him,

"So," 'cause you know how comic book fans

can be sometimes, very skeptical.

"Well, so is this Fantastic Four movie

"gonna be good?

"Is it gonna be any good?"

'Cause you remember Marvel's reputation at the time.

Michael just looked him right in the eye

and he would just say,

"This Fantastic Four movie is gonna be great."

- Are such things as dreams are made of.

- I had heard about a big screening.

In 1993, I didn't know much about

the Mall of America, so I didn't know

what it exactly meant but,

a public screening of the film

meant a lot.

- We were going gang busters, ya know,

train's moving forward.

We were settin' up all this stuff for the premiere

at the Mall of America.

All these different radio and television local

and national affiliates were all tied in.

Ronald McDonald House, Children's Miracle Network,

we had all this stuff, all the cast and crew.

We knew the cast was gonna be there for sure.

Oley was gonna be there.

- Confidence was still pretty high,

even though within that world were signs

that this is not, whatever sense of urgency there was

is over.

- The film was done.

So, all of us are startin' to get excited again.

- We had what we thought were

as good of visual effects as we could afford.

We went to sound.

We were getting everything ready.

Roger was talking about releasing this

on, I think he was talking about like 500 screens.

- The cast was gonna be there live.

It was just, it was kind of exciting.

It was kinda like in the old days, ya know?

- So, we were countin' down to the end of '93

and somebody said stop.

- The film was actually going to premiere

at the Mall of the America's, I think,

in Minneapolis, but I don't think anything

ever happened of it.

I think somebody was trying to do something

without paying attention to who had the copyrights.

- As much as, ya know,

I would wanna be Robin Hood or Jesse James,

at any point in my life, this was the point.

So, I went out in full knowledge

that I was gonna promote myself and this character

and this story.

It was about, let's do the right thing

as a storyteller, dare we say artist,

and in order to do that, we had to construct

a business scheme and arrangement

and that might have scared Neue Constantin.

I shouldn't think it scared Bernd Eichinger,

but it might have scared somebody at Fox

and the middle management

and Chris Columbus was the

wunderkind.

Chris Columbus was a Fantastic Four fan.

Fox wanted to give something nice to Chris Columbus,

so all of these other pieces of information

that had nothing to do with us.

None of this is malicious.

This is Hollywood.

- I got a call from Oley saying

he just got a notification to cease and desist

on all promotional stuff.

And I'm going, "What's going on?"

- Ya know, once again, it was another

blow to all of us.

- I think I might have talked to Alex about it

and that was it.

I mean, there was nothing else we could do.

It just ended.

- I got this call from Oley

and he said,

"I hate to tell ya this but,

"the film's not going forward.

"It's not gonna be released."

- And I go, "Ah man, is it?"

He goes, "Yeah."

I go, "Alright."

Fuck.

Alright.

- And then to find out then that wait a minute,

this was planned from the beginning,

was the initial understanding.

So in other words, this movie was never

meant to come out.

- We were very surprised

because the thing is, they finished the movie

that if contractually, all he had to do

was be in production, he could have started it

and then bagged it.

Why spend that extra time and money

and a lot of people's just sweat and blood?

- Neue Constantin had this clause

in their contractual agreement with Marvel

and I guess with Corman as well

that they had the right to seek other

avenues for another production

and they had been wrangling with 20th

Century Fox to do that

and they made their deal.

So, now they're gonna exercise their right

to shelve this film and go work

on a big budget version.

- Somebody wrote a check

and it probably had Mr. Eichinger's name on it.

And everybody above us was satisfied.

Fox, Constantin, Marvel,

Perlman, Roger,

whoever was at Fox that was scared witless

because some barnstormers in blue suits

are out there trying to pinch his project.

- I don't know.

I was a bit stunned, ya know?

I was a bit, this doesn't make sense.

Is this sort of a lag or

the idea that it would not be released

in any manner, that it would be shelved,

that it would never be seen is hard to imagine.

- I was called into the post super's office

and told that the negative was being transferred out

of the lab and that Roger no longer owned the print.

And so, that,

that was crushing.

- And then, once they took the movie away from us,

then we were ya know, sort of like,

the wounded and ya know,

and then I said, "Wait a minute,

"why, we're gonna let them take this movie

"away from us and not get anything out of it?

"We gotta show people that we made a movie.

"That's how you get another job."

You gotta show 'em.

You know, look, where's your movie?

Oh, you just made a movie?

Where is it?

Well, I don't really have a movie.

Well then, you didn't really make a movie.

Well, yes I did, but I don't have it.

Well then you didn't make a movie.

So beat it.

So I said, "We gotta get that movie."

So I remember Glenn Garland and I

were sneakin' around in Roger's storage room in Venice

looking for the can to that film.

After everybody had gone, we were in there

like almost like in a like,

with a flashlight ya know?

Like criminals, we were going in there

and we were gonna risk

criminal prosecution for taking that print

and going over to a post house

and having it telecined

so we could have a decent copy of the film.

But low and behold, the film was already gone.

There was no prints left around.

They had confiscated everything.

The negative, the work prints,

the answer print and we had one answer print

made from the movie, just one.

And we never could find it and that was that.

- Then they had to construct a story about that.

And the story about that became,

you know this movie was never intended to be made.

It was always a way to secure the rights

for Marvel 'cause they were going through

great trouble and Chris Columbus or somebody

of immense talent needs to make this film

because it's a profitable franchise

and they don't want the river to be polluted.

And they were all scared of it.

This great myth sort of became self justified.

Look, it's like a conspiracy theory.

We all try to react to shock

by constructing this grand plan that

requires somebody to be in charge

who has the talent to do that

and it's the wrong place to look for that in this project.

It just had it's own destiny

and when it hit that fork in the road

and went to the place of denial,

you know it's in a vault in Kentucky.

Don't you think when they finished making the

new Fantastic Four's that they might

dust this one off and ya know,

with it being 80 years old, be like the Lone Ranger

going, "You know, that was really good?"

I'll be telling the same story I'm telling now.

Is that by trying to help this film succeed

in the conventional way, we probably

quite likely sewed the seeds

for it's demise in a most unconventional way.

- To Bernd Eichinger's credit,

he did call me and I went up to his house

in Beverly Hills and sat with him, ya know,

in his living room and had a cup of coffee with him

and he told me exactly what happened

and to his credit, he said, "Look, I'm gonna tell you

"what the situation is and why this movie was pulled."

And he explained to me the deal with Marvel,

that it happened this way

and he was sorry that, ya know, I was involved

and everybody else's effort was for not.

But, that was it and he told me

just simply it was a contractual issue

between him, or between Constantin film and Marvel

and that was it.

And then asked me if I wanted some more coffee.

- What have you done?

- I felt, I didn't know what to do.

I felt like, ya know, who do you go after?

How do you, ya know, I'm Sicilian,

so I got that thing in me that says,

"I wanna go fuck somebody up for this,"

ya know but, you can't do anything.

Because I knew all that work, all the effort,

all the sweat, all the sneakin' around

doing the post, all the work that the actor's did,

the special effects and that everybody's

blood, sweat, tears, heart, soul

effort that went into making this little movie

just, they just flushed it down the toilet.

It was gone.

Gone, that's it, didn't happen.

What you guys just did did not happen.

- Why all this mystery?

- I think if you're gonna pull a con,

you just don't tell people it's a con until

you run away with the bag of money.

Oh my God, did we just get conned?

That son of a bitch.

- We just made this movie that we're all hoping

would have gotten us a leg up in the business

and they just pulled it from under us

and that was that

and no additional compensation,

no, "Hey Jay, ya know what,

"maybe we'll compensate you guys down the--"

Nah man, it was like,

"Sorry, it's over, goodbye."

- How many movies did Roger Corman make

and never release?

One.

- Why not release the film?

It's certainly gonna make you some money.

We certainly wouldn't have done the

appearances and the comic book conventions

and Corman would not have, ya know,

printed up, ya know, all these posters

and head shots and spent all that money.

So, I think he probably,

as a big good businessman, he said,

"Fine, I'll take the money and I'll

"cut my ties with this thing and let it go."

And that's

hard cold truth of Hollywood, I guess, ya know?

- Ya know, Roger called me after the fact

and said, ya know, "Oley, I wanna thank you.

"I just got a check for $1,000,000 from--"

And I was going, "Gee, that's great Roger."

And the movie then went off the shelf.

It was gone, they pulled it.

And I think it was because,

and that's just, it only makes sense,

that he used the finished film as

a little more leverage to collect a bigger paycheck

other than just the production expenses

that he was paid in his markup on a production

expenses from Constantin.

So, it was apparently, everybody did well

with the movie except us.

Except the ones that made the movie

and the one that acted in the film

and we all just get, ya know, kicked in the teeth

and that was that.

- At the time, ya know, one just deals with the realities.

Finally, it's over.

Okay and we're not gonna have the premiere

and then, you know, later,

the conspiracy aspect of it,

the business sense aspect was rather interesting

for me to try to unravel

and I think it's come down that Avi Arad was the

one person who knew

what he was doing in this.

- In October of 1993, Avi Arad has

his first really big success.

He sells the rights to the X-Men movie

to 20th Century Fox.

He's already had a working relationship with Fox

because he was heavily involved with

Fox Cartoon on Saturday Mornings.

(intense music)

And Avi Arad is really eager to make movies

and really eager to make big movies

and when he finds out that there's a

low budget Fantastic Four movie coming along,

ya know, maybe he's not that excited

to see what's gonna happen with it.

Maybe he would rather just

call the shots on every movie

that has anything to do with Marvel.

When Avi heard this, he went to the telephone

and ya know, the details of

the conversation he had and specifically

who he was even speaking to

are maybe up for some debate.

- I don't think Roger really knew from the beginning.

I think he was duped just as much as we were,

which is really sinister.

But ya know, if you've got a secret

that you need, it's a life and death secret

or either to keep the franchise or lose the franchise,

you don't tell anybody.

You can't afford to do it.

And that's what they did.

I mean, it was lockbox, ya know?

It was, this is it, we're not lettin'

this secret out.

If we do, we're gonna be nuked, ya know?

So, I think that's ya know, the importance of them

not telling anyone, including Roger,

that this thing was gonna be doomed.

- Avi, I think, wanted control of Marvel.

In order to save it, look what's happened.

I mean, you look at it that way,

my gosh, what a wonderful sort of cog in the wheel.

- I might be even betraying myself

in our own movie for saying it but,

I kinda see Avi Arad's perspective on it.

They wanted to come out with this franchise,

ya know, big and with a splash.

In a way, maybe Marvel is not really

the bad guy so much as it is Constantin Film

because maybe they were secretly hoping that

they didn't make the movie.

Ya know, so they could get the rights back

and go do it elsewhere

because in the end, Marvel Productions

and what they've become today

made them billionaires.

(intense music)

- Roger, about 16 months later,

he gave me a film to do.

- [Voiceover] Unknown Origin.

Starring Alex Hyde-White.

- Yeah, they really liked what he did for them

and that made it okay.

- After that, Bernd Eichinger, I was

up for a film to direct in Prague

and my agent sent me over there

and I interviewed with these guys

and I think Bernd said,

"Hire Oley because he's good and he's fast."

And I gotta tell ya, going to Prague and making a film

was one of the best experiences of my life.

That was a great, great experience

and the film turned out really, really well.

Then when we were posting the film

in Munich, I happened to walk into a restaurant

with the editor and we went there to eat

and Bernd Eichinger was sitting against the window

having dinner by himself.

And I went over to say hello to him

and he goes, "Oh Oley, how's the film?

"Everything good?"

I said, "Yeah, it went well, man.

"I wanted to thank you for ya know,

"at least throwing me a bone."

(laughter)

And so, we sat down to have dinner

and the next thing we know,

Bernd Eichinger sent over a bottle of Dom Perignon.

(laughter)

- The irony of the Fantastic Four movie

is that it has been seen by more people

than probably would have ever seen it

in it's initial release had it been released.

This was the great irony because

before long, tapes were circulating

in underground comic book conventions.

- I went to a convention.

There's rows of people that are signing

and rows of movies and stuff that are just kinda

stacked up and well, I was just kinda

floatin' around and I--

picked this thing up

and I went ah,

this is me!

Wow, that's really cool

and I said, "Yeah, when did you guys get this?"

He said, "Oh, I think it's been floatin' around

"'cause I can't get a real copy."

He said, "Would you like that?"

I said, "I'd love it."

He goes, "10 bucks."

- I was at a party and this guy comes up to me

and goes, he goes, "You look so familiar to me.

"I know you, I know you."

Throughout the party, he was trying to figure it out

and finally, he comes up to me and he goes,

"You're Alisha!"

And I'm like, "Yes."

And I go, "How do you know?

"Did you work on the movie?"

He goes, "No, I saw the movie."

I'm like, "Where?

"I haven't even seen the movie."

So, he told me that there are copies on Ebay

and so, ya know, that night, I went home

and I bought a copy on Ebay.

- Somebody had told me that they were

at a comic book convention.

They bought me a copy

and I was like, I was kinda thrilled

that ya know, all that hard work at least

was gonna get seen by somebody,

by some fan was going to see it as like

something special that ya know,

the lost tapes.

- Where copies started coming from, who knows?

But in any case, they started showing up.

And so, what you started to see happen was,

you started to see this little

surgence of

fans, comic fans, that were starting to see the movie.

- So I got the copy of the film

and I took it to Lightning Dubs and one of those places

that just ya know, does a lot of dubbing work

for the TV networks and such

and I said look, I just want a couple copies of this movie.

And I think that's where it got leaked out.

I think somebody, one of these

guys that work there at night doing dubs

ya know, in the middle of the night

saw the Fantastic Four and went, "Holy shit.

"I'm gettin' me a copy of this."

So, they made, ya know, two for me and one for them.

So I think those are, whoever that is,

ya know, wherever he is, God bless him

because they got the film out there.

- I think the film

was never meant to be released.

I think the film was a way

for the producers to extend their option on the material

at a very, very low cost

and I think that this was a development cost.

I am a writer, I've seen scripts be written

and then thrown away

and this is the equivalent of that.

This was just a draft of the film

that was tossed away

and it's written off on production cost.

- The story that I heard was that

Avi Arad was in Puerto Rico

and he was talking to this kid

who said, "Are you gonna be,

"ya know, going to that Fantastic Four premiere?"

And Avi said, "What Fantastic Four premiere?"

- Marvel does have the movie.

They own it, ya know, that it's,

for all we know, I think the comment

from the fella who ran Marvel or runs Marvel

is that ya know, "Yeah, we burned it

"or it got burned or something."

But it's probably, we would imagine

in some film vault somewhere.

I can't imagine they, ya know, burned it.

Ding dong.

- My guess it it's somewhere,

that they wouldn't be that cruel as to

demolish a piece of celluloid regardless of what's on it.

Because if you believe that they

have even an ounce of film maker

inside their blood, they're not gonna destroy film.

Ya know 'cause that's not what we do.

People don't destroy film if you're a film maker.

You try to preserve film.

So, my guess is that somewhere,

that negative is still preserved and tucked away somewhere,

I would hope.

- What's the harm?

There are Criterion Collections.

There are reboots of old Hugh O'Brian,

"Have Gun - Will Travel."

There's all sorts of things out there.

The niche market has been created, alright?

Why wouldn't there be a warm welcome

for this film and that's a very good question

and I think the question itself

gives you the answer.

It's a yes, it'll come out.

When it is viewed as a tangible asset

by whoever is left over.

- The perfect offering.

- Somebody's gonna find this.

Somebody's gonna find this project.

The great untold, never seen version.

The original Fantastic Four.

You tellin' me that wouldn't sell

a few DVD's for cryin' out loud?

(intense music)

The fact that it never was released,

that doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter.

It's about giving this film it's third act

and I'm sure it'll happen

and I hope that when my 12-year-old

grandchildren are old enough

in the early 21st century that it does happen,

that they'll remember, "That was your great grandfather."

'Cause it's not gonna happen now.

- It'll certainly, ya know, make some money.

They'll make some money.

You'll make some money on it.

People will buy copies of this DVD

or downloads, whatever it's gonna be.

Or put it on a special features with ya know,

the other Fantastic Four movies.

I don't know.

It just seems like it needs it's due

and there's people out there ready

and waiting to get it.

- Patience.

- It's too bad that

in today's world with

the options of media play

that it can't find a home

or hasn't found a home yet.

But,

ya know what,

it's all about this.

- I've said to this day and I'll go on record as saying,

if we ever can, people will see fit

to release this film, I'll go back in

and redo any of the Doom speeches

to get it all nice and perfect but,

I'm not holding my breath.

- It's a shame because I think what they should do

is take the film and release the film

in it's original state and I would hope that

because of the CGI that's out there today,

take the film and everywhere there's a CGI effect

in the original film, see what the film

really could have been if we had

a little bit more money to make the CGI

equivalent to what the CGI is today.

Then, release it as a double,

ya know, DVD.

They would make a fortune.

The fact that the film never got the treatment

that it should have gotten, even in post,

was like another stab in the heart

because you said, "Damn, we made a good looking movie."

Ya know, and what do we get for it now?

We've got ya know, bootleg copies,

which is VHS to VHS 10 times

and that's what people see.

They go, "Yeah, that movie.

"Well ya know, it's okay but it looks like shit."

Well, no wonder it looks like shit.

I know that when they did the telesinny

for the trailer, in which was a negative

transfer to tape and man, it looked awesome.

It really looked good.

- I look back and in some ways,

because of it not coming out,

I think it has had a bigger life

than maybe if it did come out.

- My kids, I have two boys,

ya know, they protect their Dad as much as possible.

So, they knew what happened with the Fantastic Four

but even like with the new,

the new bigger versions came out,

they said they wouldn't go see 'em

'cause ya know, that would be like

them cheatin' on their Dad.

- Is it the perfect definitive?

Fantastic Four movie.

No but we did our damn best

job that we possibly could

with the resources we had

to make that happen.

- Nobody ever thought that it would

have this kind of life but,

I'm really glad that it did.

It's really the audience.

This film wouldn't be around

if it wasn't for the comic book fan base

because they're the ones that have

kept it alive all this time.

It wasn't really anything that we did.

It's the fact that they wanted it

and they kept wanting it and they

seem to still want it.

- In the end, ya know,

this is a, I think it was a great blender on their part.

I think ya know, they took 10 years or more

to make another Fantastic Four movie

in the meantime.

None of us reaped any benefits from making this film,

except my son,

ya know, who I gave him the tape

when he was probably about three-years-old

and he started watching his old man

playing Doctor Doom.

And running around the house with his action figure

and imitating my laugh,

imitating the lines,

right to a T and

I suppose that gave me more joy than probably anything.

I don't feel bitter about it or anything like that.

Ya know, it was a job.

I did, I think,

I did my utmost to bring it to life.

I did my part.

I'm proud of it, ya know?

I got to be the first Doctor Doom.

Nobody's gonna take that away from me.

It would just be nice to see it

a little further out there

so the public could

have a laugh.

- Ya know, I was angry

the first day I heard that the thing was

being pulled from Bernd Eichinger.

You just, you take what you can get

and we got an opportunity

to make a movie about the Fantastic Four

and I never lost the feeling that we had

when we were hired to do the film

because it was the Fantastic Four.

So, I don't, no I'm not bitter about it at all,

frankly, and I'm not angry about it.

Ya know, yeah, you can't just go around

thinking about what if's, ya know?

Because that's over, ya know,

you gotta let go of the past and embrace the future.

That way, you can live in the present.

Ya know and that's what we do.

I mean, it's the movie business

and life is not fair.

It's like, ya know, forget about it, Jake.

It's Chinatown.

(slow music)