All language subtitles for 2. Exclusive Interview- W5’s Avery Haines take on alleged cult leaders of Twin Flames Univers

Why did you feel that now was the right
time to share your story?

Well, I feel that there wasn't really a
time, like there wasn't really a space

to share our story.

So when we would poke our heads out, so
to say, it was just outrage,

outcry, like that's not a conversation,
that's just being around a reaction.

And so we just wanted to have time to
let things kind of calm down and cool

and, you know, hopefully create a space
where we could come out and speak

because we really did want to. But it
seems that it just wasn't our time. It

the time of, you know, the ones, the
other side to share what they wanted to

share. Yeah.

And for you, though, like, why now?

Same. I mean, that's our answer.

Yeah.

You mentioned last night feeling
canceled.

Yeah. Do you feel as though you both
have been canceled?

Undoubtedly. I mean, this is a textbook
example of cancel culture.

Explain that for me.

Well, you know.

Think she's probably the better person
to explain that she's she's one doing

the studying of it all well just that
There you know there was a reaction

towards us and it caught fire and Then
it got shared

all around the internet and it got
picked up and then it just kept

and snowballing and to you know what we
have now and

Yeah, there just wasn't an opportunity
for us to really share our side.

Jeff, what do you think the public's
perception of you is? And where are they

wrong?

I think they think I'm not a nice person
and that I hurt people.

And it could not be further from the
truth.

The words that have been used to
describe you are narcissistic, coercive,

Not true.

Cult leader. Yeah, not true.

And that you have destroyed people's
lives.

Not true.

Not true at all.

But so why are you the lightning rod for
so much hate?

Why is that?

I think because we love people.

It doesn't make sense, Jeff. The
equation doesn't add up. People who love

usually receive hate. Not true.

That's not true. Look at history.

Okay, tell me.

Well, I'm not the...

Well, you look at, for instance, a lot
of historical figures like Martin Luther

King. He loved, and he was loving not
just the black community, but loving the

white community and loving the world.
And he received a slew of hate and led

his assassination.

I grew up Catholic, so I think of Jesus.

He was just loving everybody, even
though it was difficult and they didn't

always like what he had to say or do. It
was extremely controversial back then.

But he was loving them.

You have described yourself as the
Master Christ.

Okay.

Would you like to elaborate on what
you'd like to...

Well, it's just that you have described
yourself as the Master Christ, right?

Right, okay. So what does that mean to
you?

It's a spiritual exploration.

And, you know, these docudramas and this
cancel culture takes everything super

out of context to make it look like I'm
some megalomaniac who's using these

strange titles to claim power, or they
say that I think I'm Jesus, and that's

just so silly.

Do you believe that you have a direct...

line to God and that God tells you
what's good for your followers,

what's good for your community. That's a
silly misperception and a twisted way

to present how we operate in a
relationship with our students.

So first of all, everyone has a direct
line to God and that's what we teach.

And for us, God is love itself.

And God is a loving, conscious being
that created us.

And we all have a direct line to God.

We all know love in our hearts, and we
can all choose to follow the direction

that love is leading us or not.

And if you're a parent, you know if your
child is going to do

something that's going to harm them, and
you can direct them otherwise. Don't

put your hand on that stove.

And if you have a toddler, they wouldn't
know any better.

You have a more mature perspective in
this area of life.

And so you would lovingly direct them
not to. And if they're just about to,

might yell, Hey, don't do that!

And you probably have seen me yelling at
my students. It's not abuse,

and no one at the time.

felt like it was abusive, and we had
many dialogues along the way. Hey, let's

talk about our teaching style.

Everything was on the table for open
discussion.

No one had a problem with it. In fact,
people felt really loved and cared for

when I would yell at them in classes.
They felt like someone cares about me

enough to yell at me because it's
uncomfortable to yell at people. I don't

to do that if I don't have to.

But I love these people. I want to see
them grow. I want to see them thrive.

And so I put myself on the line in order
to be able to help

people.

And yet, Jeff, the people who are no
longer in the Twin Flames universe will

describe their feelings towards that in
a completely different way. Of course.

And so can I grab some water? Oh, for
sure, yes.

Do you know where my Fiji went?

You may need to get a new one. Okay,
that's fine.

Sorry. That's okay.

Yeah, he gets a dry mouth and he talks a
lot.

I don't know if you want a microphone.

So, Jeff, you talk about yelling at
people lets them know that you actually

showing them love.

No, but kind of. Okay. But the people
who are on the receiving end of that,

are no longer part of the community,
felt bullied and manipulated and

by you. They felt like you really hurt
them. Yeah.

We loved those people, and we wish them
well.

We hope that they find the healing that
they seek.

And it's unfortunate that they
couldn't... It's unfortunate that they

find that with us.

And we did our very best to love them
and serve them and support them with

they had asked us to support them with.
And we parted ways, and that's okay.

We wish them well.

They don't feel well, though. They feel
really damaged by their experience in

the Twin Flames universe.

Okay. We did everything we could to love
these people.

They didn't come to us without hurt,
without upset.

And when you do the spiritual work, you
become aware of your hurts.

They're often unconscious.

So this spiritual process is one of
working through layers of your

consciousness. Tell me about channeling,
the channeling that you receive

from God to decide who was each other's
twin flame.

Right. I really just don't like the
framing here. It doesn't line up with

our reality is. Why does that bother you
so much?

Well, there's this perception that I'm
not a nice person, and I feel like I'm

being thrown in with a whole other
mindset of not nice people who do

not nice things to people. And it's just
simply not us. It's not what we do.

So what you're addressing is, you know,
people say that we tell people who their

twin flame is.

But it's a spiritual path that you have
to take on your own. You have to walk

your path.

And we know the path quite well.

We're experts in our field. We've seen
this happen many times.

It happened in our own life.

You can see when something is coming up
on someone's spiritual horizon.

And we'll point that out. Hey, we invite
you to explore.

We don't match, make, twin flame.

But there were two rounds. There were
two specific rounds where people were

told, you two are together, you two are
together.

No, it's not like that.

You know, there's nuance to this. And we
live in that fine nuance. We operate

there as a community in the spiritual
teaching.

It's not so black and white.

as you know you're being match made as i
just said it's an invitation to explore

are you denying that there were these
two rounds of suggestions

from the two of you on who each other's
twin flame was they're not denying that

there was an invitation to explore but
you have to take the journey for

if i said to you you might like this
veggie burger it's up to you to try and

to eat it or not Except if you're
feeling so much that there's a

please the two people who have become so
important in your community. And then

the choice might not be there as
clearly.

We don't encourage that kind of power
dynamic.

Yeah.

You don't? No.

Really?

Mm -hmm.

I mean, you're their guru.

So, right?

Your words have weight. They do. Yeah.

You look dubious.

I'm not sure what you mean by that.

You seem super defensive.

I feel that the framing is unfair.

I'm asking you questions based on what's
out there from your own videos.

It's taken out of context.

Then how do you explain how harmed
people feel?

I mean, there are people who, I think
you've called them your hate squad.

There are people who feel as though you
tried to tell them that they were in the

wrong gender, that they needed to change
gender. Not one, not two, but a number

of people.

Sure. I'm happy to address these
concerns.

this subject because it's incredibly,
you know, personal. We do not force

change. We never have.

We invite people to explore their gender

polarity and see what, try it on, see
what that is like for you.

In the Twin Flame community at large,
not just Twin Flames universe,

there's a belief that in a twin flame
union there's a divine feminine and

there's a divine masculine polarity and
that polarity is what creates attraction

and so that's what we have found to be
true for us and for

many others and so we invite people to
explore that I feel like

that's an important part of a person's
spiritual journey is

finding out, you know, their sexuality,
finding out their gender.

I did it, you know, when I was a
teenager.

I did it when I was in college.

Did what?

Oh, I explored my gender and my
sexuality as a teenager.

And even as a young girl, I knew, like,
I was attracted to the masculine.

And I felt very strongly probably in a
male body.

And then in college, I thought, well, I
know I like the masculine energy. It

could be in a woman.

And so I experimented there, and I felt
like, I don't know. I

think maybe masculine in a male body.
That's probably my polarity.

Except your concept, the way I've seen
it, is that A divine

masculine cannot be in a feminine body,
that that body has to change to a man.

Not true.

Really?

Correct. So you've never suggested that
somebody was in the wrong body, that

they were actually a divine masculine
and not a divine feminine?

So we invite people to explore their
gender polarity.

Jeff, if you have an element of control
over them or sway over them, and they

hear you say that, and they know that it
will please you to adopt that. That's

not the relationship we invite. We're
not inviting people to please us. We're

inviting people to explore their
spirituality, to look within themselves,

have their own personal relationship
with God. It's not about me. It's never

been about me. I don't want it to be
about me.

A cynic would say,

You've got a business model and the
business model relies on twin flames

found and you guys Made a decision that
hmm We've only got women

the vast majority of people who are
following us are women We need to make

of them kind of like puppet masters men
And then we're going to tell those

people are going to be their twin flames
and they must maintain that twin flame

in order to continue

showing the world that this twin flame
works. That sounds a lot like a

conspiracy theory.

That's a lot of stretching going on
here. Well, where's the stretching,

What's your, you know, could you clarify
what you're asking?

Yeah, but you said there's a lot of
stretching there. Well, you have this

stretched out, you know, tall tale about
what, you know, a

cynic supposes that we do here, but it's
just not true.

But so what part of that was stretching?
Because most of the people that were in

your community or in your community are
women, correct?

Most women, you know, interested in
relationships.

Sorry, another drink of water. Okay,
sure.

Can he put his water there? Yeah, keep
it right there. That's fine, Jeff. No,

no, it's fine.

It's dry in Madrid, I believe.

Yeah.

But most of your community is women.

And the premise of the Twin Flames
universe is, amongst other things, that

you're going to find your twin flame
through the help of the spiritual work

you do and through you. Sure. So you've
got a bit of a business problem if all

of your followers are straight women.

Not true. No.

That's not our business model.

No.

Our business model is, as I said,
it's... to help you look within yourself

love yourself.

And that produces profound effect.

How many of your followers or how many
people in your community have

transitioned?

I don't know.

A dozen, maybe.

And how many of them have transitioned
with the suggestions from you or as part

of the exploration with you?

In the beginning, there were quite a
few.

And that, you know, many of them.

I think from what, you know, a lot of
them have shared that

They were feeling this way, like, even
prior to meeting us.

Some of them broke down and cried when
they got the news from you that they

actually divine masculines, even though
they were women.

So it's not the correct framing. It's an
invitation to explore your gender

polarity. People who are no longer part
of your community have said that they

were told by you that they were a
different gender.

Are you saying that they misinterpreted
what you were saying, or are you saying

that I am framing it in the wrong way?

I'm saying and telling you what we...

do in these circumstances. But it
matters what they hear.

So it's what you're putting out maybe is
different from what they're hearing,

and I'm just trying to figure out if
that... Well, there's an ongoing

and we are responsible for our part as
the relationship.

I can't possibly be responsible for
someone else's part of a relationship.

But if you tell somebody that they're
the wrong gender, if they hear that, you

have former followers who believe that
you told them that they needed to change

their gender. It's just...

It's not fair because the spirit of the
community and the culture of the

community is one of openness and
dialogue and exploration and support,

fearful, put you into the corner, you
have to do this. It's just not true.

But I don't feel like I'm getting an
answer to that.

Okay.

I just don't feel like I'm getting an
answer to that. I mean, there are people

in your community who paint you both, As
puppet masters, as cult leaders who

have a level of control over people who
are very vulnerable and that you're

abusing that control and you're telling
them what gender they are because it

fits into your business model.

Again,

we are here lovingly supporting people
on their spiritual journey. We are not

puppet masters.

We are not...

over -exercising our control to get
people to do things that we want them to

This is difficult work.

Yeah, it was just an invitation to
explore.

And they were with us at the time when
we were their direct guide, and we

invited them to explore, and they could
have chosen not to do it or not to.

I guess they felt so invested in the
community and felt so...

responsible for pleasing you both and
listening to your words, that if they

didn't follow what you suggested, they
would no longer be part of the

And they were terrified of that because
it had become their everything.

Yeah, we have enormous compassion for
that.

What's your responsibility in that as
opposed to your compassion for it?

Well, as I said, I have enormous
compassion.

if that was their experience. That's not
what we aim to do.

And there was never any opportunity for
us to be able to address that if they

were having that experience.

Lots of upsets and difficult challenges
come up along the way. And if you stop

doing the spiritual work, one might get
stuck in that upset and lose it in their

mind. So it's hard.

to see that people had a negative
experience with Twin Flames Universe and

us. And we did our best to love them. We
wish them well. We hope they

find the help that they seek. Once
again, this is online.

You can just close your browser.

Do you take any responsibility for the
impact that the Twin Flames Universe has

had on some of the followers?

You've obviously had time to reflect on
the allegations against you. Sure.

So one thing that we got wrong was that
we believed once you

attained harmonious union, you found
that oneness with your twin flame, your

person, that you would never want to
leave, that you would find that

relationship to be so fulfilling and so
wonderful and so beautiful that you

would... work through what arises in the
relationship to keep it.

So at first we called it permanent
harmonious union.

And we thought that once you arrived at
that place, that you just stay there.

But that didn't end up being the case.

And, you know, it was a little altruism
from young.

people who found true love themselves
that it would just be exactly as

for everyone else that it was for us but
the reality was that um everyone has a

unique case and their challenges uh were
different and some people found that

you know what

I really don't want this.

That's okay. They move on with their
lives, and some people found this is too

hard, this is too close.

I need to take a step back and work on
myself.

That's okay. They can do that too.
Everyone gets to take it at their own

But what about connecting people within
the community, young women with people

who have criminal records, and then
being in situations that are dangerous,

then always having to reflect back on
what they're doing wrong to not make

this...

violent relationship work.

Yeah, so there's a lot going on here
that's not

really in our control.

We're not encouraging people to get into
relationships with violent people.

That's not the frame here.

And what about the allegation that
you're teaching validate on some level

rape?

That's absurd. I'm sorry.

That's absolutely absurd.

That if you're with your twin flame...
No, I'm sorry, I'm going to stop you

there. There's absolutely no validity to
that in any way. We

strongly encourage people to respect
people's boundaries. We have an enormous

respect for people and their sexuality,
and we would never, ever encourage

anything remotely close to that.

Yeah, that's really vile. The idea that
a twin flame union has a divine

masculine and a divine feminine.

Sure. And that the divine masculine
should be able to have sex every day.

It's a consensual journey.

That's common sense with sex.

Both parties have to be willing and
choose that.

And at some point during the intercourse
process, one party says,

Slow down, stop, I'm not comfortable.

You should honor that.

There's kind of a back and forth on a
video with you where you're explaining

that Shalia didn't want to have sex, but
in a twin flame union, if one person

does, then the other one sort of
naturally does.

I'll let Shalia answer the question.

Sorry, so can you repeat that again?

If there is a twin flame union, and
one...

Person in the twin flame wants to have
sex and by nature of the of the mirror

the two of them than the other But one
does as well Yeah, um Yeah, it's very

nuanced because you know, I feel very
like

Like we're in a very like intimate
relationship and so I have found that

sometimes like

Like if I didn't want to but actually
like I did like he can kind of see that

and Like it's very healthy for us to
have sex

and it's always consensual and like at
the end of the day, like, if it's a no,

like, it's a no, I don't want to.

But, like, I have definitely, because
we've, you know, we've been together so

long, we're so intimate, like, I've come
to trust him. And, like, I know when

he's saying, like, you know, maybe we
should.

And it goes both ways, too. It goes both
ways, because sometimes, like, I'm the

one that's like, hey.

I'm like, no, I don't want to. You know,
and she's like.

come on you know and often you know it's
true like you know it ended up being

that it was better that we did it was
better than we did in the end sometimes

you know it wasn't the case and i say
you know firm no and she respects that

yeah that's what we have in our
relationship and that's what we teach uh

know toward in our community yeah and do
you think oh yeah can i have your water

briefly

I might be blushing a bit.

What's your definition of a cult?

What's your definition

of a cult?

As far as I understand, there's not an
agreed upon specific definition of a

cult.

What my personal definition of a cult
is, is a harmful organization,

a group that extracts the well -being of
its members in exchange

for a delusion and doesn't let them go.

And I can see how easy a target Twin
Flames Universe can be for that because

Twin Flames seems like such a
fantastical idea.

Like, you have an ultimate lover.

You have someone who's perfectly
designed for you, that completes you in

way, that grows with you, that is your
eternal complement.

It is a divine, extraordinary concept.

And I can see how people would be
skeptical of such a concept.

So that's, like, are you guys cult
leaders?

No. No.

No. And a cult, like your description of
a cult is extracting and with

keeping people, extracting and keeping
to their... Extracting their well

Extracting their well -being. For egoic
purposes.

And, you know, for a delusion, to feed a
lie, to feed a delusion.

And not letting them leave, you know,
like turning them into some sort of

like the Matrix or something, a little
mini version of the Matrix. I don't

I guess cults can be bigger, I'm not
sure.

But, yeah, we're not that. We help
people. People are free to come and go

they please. It's as simple as clicking
the X on your browser and never engaging

again. Yeah.

And does that, you say yes.

What's your take on that?

Well, we don't harm people.

But people who've had, I'm sorry to
interrupt.

But you say you don't harm people, and
yet we've heard from people who really

feel as though they've been harmed by
you psychologically.

We see people who are still in your
community who have undergone surgeries

hormone therapies to change their
gender.

You're going to get an opportunity to
talk to Adam and Brianne soon and hear

their story and hear from their
perspective.

How do you feel about this? You can talk
to them and ask them how they feel.

But on the outside looking in, that
sounds like harm

to me.

Okay.

Yeah, I don't agree with that. I feel
that everyone has their own spiritual

journey and they have a choice to agree
or disagree, to go down that path or

not.

You absolutely deny ever telling
somebody that they were a divine

they were a woman.

We encourage people to explore.

No, but you've never said to somebody,
you're a divine masculine.

We encourage people to explore.

So you're communicating more than just
your word.

And I hesitate to answer that question
in the way that I'm feeling led to

that question, which is yes or no.

But the reality is... It kind of is a
yes or no, Jeff.

There's context here.

The answer to your question is we
encourage people to explore their

spiritual, their inner world.

And it's just an invitation to explore.

But so then that's an easy...

no to the question, have you ever told
anybody that they are divine masculine?

It's not a trick question.

So there's thousands of hours of
content.

And so you might find somewhere in there
something looking like me saying that.

There are a number of people who have
said that they were told not only who

their twin flame was within the
community, but that they were the wrong

It kind of is a yes or no answer.

We operate in a very particular way. And
the way that we operate is what we've

been communicating the entire time.

And there's nothing nefarious about how
we operate. And it generates profound

positive results in people's lives. And
it doesn't harm anyone.

And so when you're asking these
questions, it's from a particular

And that context simply does not fit the
context that we teach in, that we live

in, that we help people with.

Except in the concerns about Twin Flames
Universe, one of the biggest, most

harmful allegations is that you are
dictating people's gender and that they

taking it to extreme lengths, including
having surgeries and hormone therapies

and changing their gender. And so I
think it's a fair question.

Of course.

That's a yes or a no, and there's not
really a ton of nuance in it. Great.

So is it a yes or a no? Have you told
people to change genders?

We've invited people to explore their
gender. So you want to stay with that?

That is the truth. That is the whole
truth. That's nothing but the truth.

Okay. And that invitation to explore
gender comes from God?

No, it comes from a human talking to a
human.

No, but do you get the message from God
that someone is in the wrong gender?

if you could give me a moment to collect
myself.

Thank you.

God is a loving being.

God wants the best for us.

I am not God.

I have never claimed to be God.

No, I'm not saying that, Jeff.

Hold on. Let me finish. Okay.

I've never claimed to be God.

I teach people how to have a
relationship with God.

And God is love.

And God is found in your heart.

God is found in the love in your heart.

And when you have a relationship with
the love in your heart, it has a

transformative impact on your life.

So my question was, do you...

get a message from God about somebody's
gender?

It doesn't work that way, no.

There's no channeling from God about
what someone's gender should be?

So we as professionals in our work

get intuitive hits, you might say.

Hey, this might be a good idea. It's
explorative. This heavy frame is just

the reality.

But Jeff, it's a heavy consequence to
have kind of a whim that someone might

a different gender. It's not a whim.

But what did you just describe it as?

So you talk about having an intuitive
experience.

Hey, maybe explore this.

Hey, that might be fun. It's innocent.
It's from a creative place. It's from a

light place.

And we explore these difficult, heavy
spiritual concepts, but it's done with

lightness. And you're going to go
through on the spiritual journey

things. We're going to navigate really
uncomfortable situations together.

And that's what we do.

That's what our spiritual community
supports.

But you see what I'm saying about you
getting an intuition of someone's gender

and then the consequence of them hearing
that. I get how this all looks, but

it's just not true.

Yeah, I agree with them.

It's just the framing of it.

It feels unfair to you?

Yeah.

What are the different businesses that
are in the Twin Flames universe

I mean, we're here to talk about twin
flames.

But that's part of it, right?

What are you here to talk about?

I'm not trying to be evasive here, but
you're starting to get into a whole lot

more subject.

What stops this from being a pyramid
scheme?

I mean, if not, can you define what a
pyramid scheme is?

Well, the structure seems to be that
there is wealth at the top.

And that anyone's wealth below is
reliant on bringing in more people below

Yeah, that's not true.

But on this concept of a pyramid scheme
or multi -level marketing, that people

are constantly having to pay thousands
and thousands of dollars to get the

training, and that the only way that
they can make money back... is by

in new people, that it's kind of this
pyramid.

I mean, that's an unfair assessment to
say that we're a pyramid scheme. We're

not. Many businesses function just like
this.

It's not uncommon.

Well, the definition of a pyramid scheme
seems to be what's happening with the

Twin Flames universe when it comes to
coaching and master...

classes master coaches versus right i
mean you know we're here to serve you

so when you look at how to make money
it's very simple you have uh value and

that value has to exchange from one
party to another and um we

teach how to create value and to share
it with other people and so um

One of the things that Twin Flames
Universe does is it offers extensive

to certify coaches to be able to serve
other people on their Twin Flame

Certified by whom?

Well, by our spiritual community.
There's extensive training that they

undergo. We are the... But training
developed by whom?

Right, by our spiritual community and by
this teaching. We're the thought leader

on Twin Flames.

But this is one of the allegations
against you, that you are wholly

and untrained and unskilled to deal with
people who are vulnerable, who are

coming to you in a vulnerable state.

We love people, but if they're having
mental health issues, that's outside of

our scope.

or if they're having a medical issue
that's outside of our scope, and we

regularly refer people to Western
medicine, to doctors, to their doctor.

If they're having an emergency to go to
the ER.

You're treating PTSD.

I'm not treating PTSD, absolutely not.
We are healing trauma and

addressing trauma, and that can result
in people's PTSD symptoms going

away. And did you guys set up the church
specifically to avoid

taxes? No. We're the church's largest
donor.

It's designed to support the spiritual
community and the spiritual teaching.

Yeah. So there was no decision or no
discussion, videotape discussion

or email discussion about how to avoid
paying taxes?

I mean, in business, it's very normal to
minimize your tax burden. That's

standard.

That's basic.

Why would you pay more taxes than you
are supposed to? We've always ensured we

pay our fair share of taxes. You can't
avoid the tax person.

There's no way around that.

And if there is, that's so far beyond
us. We don't have time to deal with

We just pay our taxes and go on about
serving people.

Because in your church filings, It's
things like $40 ,000 for

PR. Sorry, Nick, if he finds out that we
know how much he's being paid.

But there are PR fees in your church
filings. Okay.

How does that get explained?

I mean, our whole community came
together to pay that.

We're all paying to support.

Our whole community is impacted by what
happened.

It didn't just happen to Jeff and I. It
happened to everyone that's in our

community.

We all collectively came together and
asked for the support that we needed.

Financial support.

Sure. For PR. Yeah, for PR.

Because you can't navigate this kind of
situation alone, and I don't think it's

fair to say we shouldn't have support
navigating this. But why would that come

out of the church?

It comes out of the whole community of
which we are a part and of which we

contribute to the largest amount.

What about Golden Children?

Another passing idea.

Yeah, it was a passing idea.

Just a thought.

Playing around with an idea.

It was a silly idea.

And we explored it for a very short
period of time and moved on.

Do you think that it's possible that you
will one day see inviting people to

explore the divine masculinity and the
divine femininity as a silly idea that

you should move away from? That that
doesn't really be part of your... Yeah,

of it. There's no...

There's no sacred cows here.

Even the twin flame concept, it's okay
if it's misproven.

I didn't come into this from a spiritual
perspective.

I grew up Catholic, and I left the
religion in the church because

of their stance on gay marriage. I felt
that if two people loved each other,

they should be very passionate about
this. They should be allowed to get

married.

It was so painful to leave my church and
my religion because of a disagreement.

But I knew what was in my heart, and I
followed that with courage.

And it led me to a new path, and that
new path is beautiful for me. Why does

that make you so sad?

I loved the Catholic Church.

I have so much love for Jesus.

And it was so hard for me to leave that
all behind and follow

my truth.

But it was the right thing to do.

But, Jeff, why is this making you so
upset?

I loved my church.

But your church didn't have you. You
still could be a part of that church.

No, I didn't agree with its fundamental
principles.

How could I be a part of something that
I don't agree with?

And it's okay. I'm not mad at the
Catholic Church. It has its

viewpoint, and I respect it. And I
respect why it feels that way.

And it led me to exploring different
spiritualities, and it was beautiful.

been nothing but beautiful for my life.

But I can't deny how hard it's been.

And it led me to this idea about
masculine and feminine.

You know, there is a way that everyone
wins, that the LGBTQ plus community

can win and have agreement here with
these, you know, traditional views that

it's only a man and a woman.

What kind of investigations are being
launched against you both and Twin

Universe right now?

There are none. There's none that, yeah,
there's none.

Yeah, I think there are, you know, There
were detectives that came to our door

in Farmington Hill, but they found
nothing, and we answered them

honestly. I think you did.

She had just gotten surgery. I just had
dental surgery that morning. She

literally came back from surgery, and
she's sitting in the chair, not 30

coming back from this pretty intense
surgery, and there's detectives at my

Yeah. Well, there was an article.

Can we come and talk to you? We're like,
yeah, come on in. I've got nothing to

hide.

IRS? No. Never.

We pay our taxes.

I have a business degree.

I'm very respectful of the IRS. I know
what they can do to you.

I'm not here to try to mess with those
people.

We have accountants and we have
attorneys and they look through all of

things and our books and they make sure
that we're very... We're not even in the

gray area with these things. We're very
much...

very well within all laws and all
legality.

And can you tell me a little bit about
Grace?

And where does she fit into the twin
flames of you two?

She's more like a monactic soul.

That's how we've always felt her as, and
that's what our logic and our intuition

has led us to believe.

But I'm still going to teach her
about...

you know, sex and sexuality.

What does that mean, a monastic soul?

Someone who is, whose life path is
dedicated to God as their love

or lover alone.

The celibate, sorry.

Yeah.

Like a nun or a monk. Like a nun or a
monk.

You guys are on a journey that people
are watching and following very closely

because they believe in you. Yeah. And
you're experimenting with things that...

They know that we're experimenting. They
know we're experimenting. Trust me,

people have a mind of their own in our
spiritual community.

Very much so. They don't always listen
to us. And like, that's okay. I don't

really care. It's your life.

What's the future for you guys? Is this
all going to come crashing down?

No. No. I think, if anything, we're only
going to continue to thrive and

be a shining light on the world because
I feel very strongly that we have

something that's critically important to
the world, and it's love.

And it's the type of love that everyone,
like, desires or most people desire and

yearn for.

And that it's here. It's a very
practical spirituality that you can

your daily life all the time. And it
will bring you closer and closer to the

divine and just have amazing positive
effects on your life.

Why are you getting all misty -eyed?

I'm thinking about Jesus.

Sorry, let me go back to the other part
of just thinking about, you know,

because it's very healing to address
that, to talk about, you know.

why I left the Catholic Church and my
views on the LGBTQ community and my love

for Jesus.

So thank you about that.

Our victims, they're not victims, and
they're not brainwashed.

They're very smart people, and they can
choose to be with Twin Flames Universe

or not be with Twin Flames Universe.

The love and support is quite
overwhelming.

they love it they love the work and
they're here because they know that um

they receive just benefits their life
like completely and you know there are

people who have been in the twin flames
universe for a long time and the

promises have not come true yet when
does it when do you realize maybe we

have the answer for everybody i mean we
don't have the answer for everybody you

know

God and everything there's truth and
everything everyone has their own path.

This is not You know the end of all
other paths This is just one good path

works for us and works for those who are
interested in in trying it out for

themselves But it kind of messes up the
business model right if you can't if

people don't get all that you've
promised in the wealth the love the Twin

it's a spiritual process and

Like when you work the spiritual
process, your life improves. That's what

have found to be true.

But it's an individual journey. Everyone
has to take it at their own pace that's

right for them and compassionate for
them.

And how is your relationship?

It's really good. So good.

Yeah, we're very happy.

We're very in love.

I'm starting to cry.

Yeah.

Very like a...

It's very sacred to us. It's like our
altar.

And, yeah,

I love Jeff with my whole heart, and
I'll be with him forever.

I've never been so happy in my entire
life.

But the business doesn't continue
without that love for each other, right?

I don't know. It's all built on your
twin flame union.

Yeah, our whole life is.

And that's built on a relationship with
God.

So I would rather not be in a world
without God.

If God isn't real, then take me away.

I don't want any part of that.

I believe God is real, and I built
everything on him.

Well, some of them have been with you
for a really long time, and obviously

don't have the wealth that you have, and
they don't have the twin flame that you

have. I mean, everyone's got their own
personal journey. They've got their own

twin flame.

They have their own journey.

Not everyone, like, really wants the
house this big. I don't recommend it to

most people. Yeah, really. It's a lot of
work. It's a lot of work, you know. I

remember being told growing up, like,
You know, either you own the house or

house owns you.

And what's it for you guys? Is the house
on you or do you own the house? We have

the house in order to support us to be
able to share this message with the

world. If we weren't interested in
continuing past this point, I wouldn't

house this big.