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These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:02,000 --> 00:00:07,000 Downloaded from YTS.BZ 2 00:00:08,000 --> 00:00:13,000 Official YIFY movies site: YTS.BZ 3 00:01:18,706 --> 00:01:22,626 These are bigger than just regular run-of-the-mill cases. 4 00:01:22,710 --> 00:01:27,256 These artifacts, once they're gone, they're gone forever. 5 00:01:34,054 --> 00:01:37,725 When I walk through a museum today and I look at those statues, 6 00:01:37,808 --> 00:01:40,269 I just know that there's so much history 7 00:01:40,352 --> 00:01:44,064 that the people looking at those statues don't want to know. 8 00:01:44,190 --> 00:01:45,816 They really don't want to know. 9 00:01:45,941 --> 00:01:49,695 If they know, they would go back and ask for a refund. 10 00:01:49,820 --> 00:01:53,324 They'd say, why would you charge us to see these blood antiquities? 11 00:01:53,407 --> 00:01:55,117 Why do you even have these here? 12 00:02:29,026 --> 00:02:31,111 I've been to many archaeological sites. 13 00:02:31,195 --> 00:02:34,573 I've never seen one absolutely completely plundered. 14 00:02:34,740 --> 00:02:38,786 In a very short time period, they fell victim to war profiteers, 15 00:02:38,869 --> 00:02:40,579 they fell victim to greed. 16 00:02:42,331 --> 00:02:45,000 It would seem that it was highly organized 17 00:02:45,084 --> 00:02:49,797 by people who had finances and the power. 18 00:02:50,214 --> 00:02:52,758 It had to be someone in authority. 19 00:02:53,092 --> 00:02:55,928 The networks behind them were very advanced, 20 00:02:56,011 --> 00:02:58,138 the smuggling routes were complicated. 21 00:02:58,222 --> 00:03:00,224 These are difficult investigations. 22 00:03:01,934 --> 00:03:05,729 The illicit trade in art and antiquities is funding organized crime, 23 00:03:05,813 --> 00:03:07,648 it's funding violent extremism. 24 00:03:08,148 --> 00:03:11,068 Death threats, calls in the morning at 3 o'clock. 25 00:03:11,151 --> 00:03:13,153 People have families, they've got kids. 26 00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,489 You don't put that stuff at risk. 27 00:03:44,143 --> 00:03:48,689 My daughter and my bodybuilder chef talked to two priests, 28 00:03:48,772 --> 00:03:51,025 independent of one another. 29 00:03:51,108 --> 00:03:54,611 Both of the priests indicated that in some previous life, 30 00:03:54,695 --> 00:03:56,530 I was Khmer, 31 00:03:56,613 --> 00:04:01,327 and that what I collect had once belonged to me. 32 00:06:01,363 --> 00:06:04,366 He would take people like the Lindemanns, who were these billionaires, 33 00:06:04,450 --> 00:06:06,660 Martin Lerner, who at the time was the curator 34 00:06:06,743 --> 00:06:08,203 of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, 35 00:06:08,287 --> 00:06:09,788 to these remote jungle sites. 36 00:06:09,872 --> 00:06:11,415 It must have been very exciting. 37 00:06:11,498 --> 00:06:13,834 And having someone like Latchford show them around 38 00:06:13,917 --> 00:06:16,253 and have so much knowledge about all of these items, 39 00:06:16,336 --> 00:06:19,214 I'm sure he was very entertaining. 40 00:06:23,177 --> 00:06:25,554 There was a British stone conservator. 41 00:06:25,637 --> 00:06:28,056 Simon Warrack is his name. 42 00:06:28,182 --> 00:06:30,976 He had been working at this beautiful site of Koh Ker, 43 00:06:31,059 --> 00:06:33,854 which used to be the capital of the Khmer Empire. 44 00:06:36,231 --> 00:06:39,276 The statues there are very, very distinct and very different. 45 00:06:39,359 --> 00:06:43,864 This is the site of this beautiful piece that they called the Duryodhana. 46 00:06:43,947 --> 00:06:48,535 And he spotted two pieces of stone on the ground. 47 00:06:48,660 --> 00:06:53,373 These blocks just had the feet attached, and the body was nowhere in sight. 48 00:06:53,457 --> 00:06:59,963 This is pretty much where they were when we saw the feet the first time. 49 00:07:01,006 --> 00:07:04,176 And since then, they've excavated this trench. 50 00:07:05,594 --> 00:07:09,139 He happened to be in a library, and he saw a statue. 51 00:07:09,223 --> 00:07:11,183 He could see by the position of the legs, 52 00:07:11,266 --> 00:07:14,645 he said, "This kind of looks like it might fit one of those pedestals." 53 00:07:14,770 --> 00:07:19,566 And sure enough, he lined them up and he said, "I think this is matching." 54 00:07:20,651 --> 00:07:24,279 A few years later, Eric Bourdonneau, a French researcher, 55 00:07:24,363 --> 00:07:26,323 he was able to do computer modelling 56 00:07:26,406 --> 00:07:29,826 to show that that statue in Adoration and Glory, 57 00:07:29,910 --> 00:07:31,870 said to be owned by a private collection, 58 00:07:31,995 --> 00:07:34,957 was the statue that matched the pedestal. 59 00:07:35,415 --> 00:07:40,671 In 2010, this Belgian widow decided she wanted to sell the Duryodhana statue 60 00:07:40,796 --> 00:07:43,340 that her husband had acquired. 61 00:07:43,465 --> 00:07:45,092 She reached out to Sotheby's, 62 00:07:45,175 --> 00:07:47,553 which is obviously a very elite auction house, 63 00:07:47,678 --> 00:07:50,347 and said, "Look, I really want to sell this." 64 00:07:50,430 --> 00:07:54,893 Sotheby's put that statue on the cover of its auction 65 00:07:54,977 --> 00:07:57,312 of South and Southeast Asian art 66 00:07:57,396 --> 00:08:01,733 for an estimated value of $2 to $3 million. 67 00:08:04,903 --> 00:08:09,575 Cambodia then sent a letter to Sotheby's saying, 68 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:12,286 "Don't sell it because the feet are found." 69 00:08:12,411 --> 00:08:14,454 "This statue belongs to Cambodia." 70 00:08:14,580 --> 00:08:17,374 Within hours to spare, this auction was stopped. 71 00:08:20,252 --> 00:08:22,671 U.S. authorities said, "Look, this is looted. 72 00:08:22,754 --> 00:08:24,256 "We want to return it to Cambodia." 73 00:08:24,381 --> 00:08:26,174 Sotheby's said, "No, no, no, no, we want to sell it, 74 00:08:26,258 --> 00:08:27,342 "and we have the right to sell it." 75 00:08:27,467 --> 00:08:29,970 And so they, in the search for the provenance, 76 00:08:30,053 --> 00:08:31,638 reached out to Emma Bunker, 77 00:08:31,722 --> 00:08:34,433 who also was a very close friend of Douglas Latchford's. 78 00:08:34,558 --> 00:08:37,936 A lot of the emails between Emma Bunker and Douglas Latchford 79 00:08:38,020 --> 00:08:39,396 were very illuminating. 80 00:08:39,479 --> 00:08:42,482 It was clear that he definitely was the first owner, 81 00:08:42,566 --> 00:08:44,568 because they were then trying to cover for him. 82 00:08:45,235 --> 00:08:49,072 I think that made him a person of interest. 83 00:08:57,623 --> 00:09:02,753 I don't know where they imagined that I owned the piece, 84 00:09:02,836 --> 00:09:08,008 but let me confirm to you first that I did not own the piece. 85 00:09:09,468 --> 00:09:11,637 I had nothing to do with it. 86 00:09:14,014 --> 00:09:16,642 So the Pandora Papers was this cache 87 00:09:16,725 --> 00:09:19,728 of nearly 12 million financial documents 88 00:09:19,811 --> 00:09:22,189 from offshore secrecy havens 89 00:09:22,272 --> 00:09:26,151 that showed basically how wealthy people 90 00:09:26,234 --> 00:09:29,571 and also sometimes criminals conceal their assets. 91 00:09:29,780 --> 00:09:35,327 With the art market in general, you have items worth millions of dollars 92 00:09:35,410 --> 00:09:38,205 that are being sold in a very non-transparent way, 93 00:09:38,330 --> 00:09:40,791 that are changing hands often across international borders. 94 00:09:40,916 --> 00:09:42,959 I ended up working on the Latchford one 95 00:09:43,043 --> 00:09:46,880 and so I was basically going through every single document I could find. 96 00:09:46,963 --> 00:09:49,675 Shortly after the Sotheby's suit, 97 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:53,387 the Latchfords turned to Trident Trust, which was this offshore service provider. 98 00:09:53,887 --> 00:09:57,683 We were able to see that this guy Latchford is pretty interesting. 99 00:09:57,974 --> 00:10:00,769 Where did the antiquities go? And where did the money go? 100 00:10:00,852 --> 00:10:03,230 We were trying to track both of those things. 101 00:10:03,313 --> 00:10:07,359 What interested us was, about three months after the sale was actually stopped 102 00:10:07,442 --> 00:10:10,362 is when you saw the Skanda Trust being formed. 103 00:10:10,487 --> 00:10:13,990 -So I mean, it could be coincidence. -Certainly not a coincidence! 104 00:10:14,074 --> 00:10:17,369 Start scrolling away some of the artifacts into a trust... 105 00:10:17,452 --> 00:10:20,580 Right, and also some of the finances too, 106 00:10:20,706 --> 00:10:22,874 because that's a lot of money. 107 00:10:27,921 --> 00:10:31,633 Anytime I would see a story about law enforcement or crime, 108 00:10:31,758 --> 00:10:33,844 but in particular the federal agents, 109 00:10:33,927 --> 00:10:36,555 I just knew that's what I needed to be doing. 110 00:10:36,638 --> 00:10:39,307 It was like a calling: "That's what I'm going to do." 111 00:10:39,433 --> 00:10:44,438 Narcotics investigations, money launderers, fraudulent passports. 112 00:10:44,563 --> 00:10:47,816 Over the years I had done all of those types of cases. 113 00:10:48,150 --> 00:10:52,529 I hear rumblings of an agent in our office 114 00:10:52,612 --> 00:10:55,615 who's recovering ancient artifacts, so I sought him out. 115 00:10:55,699 --> 00:10:58,827 He told me he was drowning in cases and could really use the help. 116 00:10:58,952 --> 00:11:01,663 There's been no looking back ever since. 117 00:11:01,788 --> 00:11:03,749 It's been a wild ride. 118 00:11:05,292 --> 00:11:07,836 Whenever we start an antiquities case, 119 00:11:07,919 --> 00:11:09,921 we approach it from two aspects. 120 00:11:10,046 --> 00:11:12,466 Can we prove that the piece is dirty? 121 00:11:12,549 --> 00:11:16,261 And then, can we prove that someone committed a crime? 122 00:11:16,386 --> 00:11:19,973 Did someone knowingly smuggle something illicit? 123 00:11:20,390 --> 00:11:25,103 Two aspects: the piece itself, and then whether someone broke the law. 124 00:11:25,270 --> 00:11:28,940 I knew Latchford was dirty from the Duryodhana case 125 00:11:29,065 --> 00:11:32,110 and seeing pieces that his name was associated with. 126 00:11:32,235 --> 00:11:38,158 What I was trying to figure out is how involved, how dirty was Latchford? 127 00:11:38,533 --> 00:11:43,163 In 2016, I led Operation Indochina Peninsula Plunder, 128 00:11:43,246 --> 00:11:47,876 which was the investigation into Douglas Latchford and his network. 129 00:11:48,001 --> 00:11:50,045 If you're going to allege 130 00:11:50,128 --> 00:11:53,924 that a particular artifact originates in a certain temple, 131 00:11:54,007 --> 00:11:58,595 who's going to know that better than people there on the ground? 132 00:12:30,752 --> 00:12:32,712 My name is Bradley Gordon. 133 00:12:32,838 --> 00:12:35,048 I'm officially appointed to advise the ministry 134 00:12:35,131 --> 00:12:38,134 on repatriations of stolen antiquities. 135 00:12:43,473 --> 00:12:46,518 I walk into a museum, I feel like, 136 00:12:46,601 --> 00:12:50,313 do they have my picture behind somewhere? 137 00:12:50,772 --> 00:12:53,316 "Brad Gordon, don't let this guy in!" 138 00:13:12,711 --> 00:13:17,465 The DOJ said to me, "We're working on a case involving Sotheby's." 139 00:13:17,883 --> 00:13:19,759 "You know about Latchford, right?" 140 00:13:19,885 --> 00:13:22,095 I went to the Cambodian government and said, 141 00:13:22,178 --> 00:13:25,181 "Look, there's someone out there, you should get back his collection." 142 00:13:34,900 --> 00:13:36,943 If you look at Cambodia, 143 00:13:37,027 --> 00:13:40,780 and you're considering the number of temples that these guys raided, 144 00:13:40,864 --> 00:13:44,159 the number of crime sites, the number of statues, 145 00:13:44,242 --> 00:13:46,995 it's an enormous amount. 146 00:13:57,589 --> 00:14:01,635 We were hired to find the looting network. 147 00:14:01,760 --> 00:14:05,305 Our assignment was to come up here 148 00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:08,600 and track down villagers, track down witnesses. 149 00:14:09,184 --> 00:14:12,854 With Naren, the two of us went over the country 150 00:14:13,021 --> 00:14:16,983 and we interviewed many, many people. 151 00:14:45,887 --> 00:14:51,226 In the beginning, I didn't quite know where Latchford fit into the picture. 152 00:15:32,434 --> 00:15:34,561 People were terrified, they were afraid. 153 00:15:34,644 --> 00:15:37,355 They didn't want to talk about who was involved. 154 00:15:37,439 --> 00:15:40,400 They were willing to identify certain statues. 155 00:18:25,481 --> 00:18:30,945 You transform a piece of rock into a piece of art 156 00:18:31,362 --> 00:18:35,491 and then you also embed spirituality, 157 00:18:36,492 --> 00:18:39,787 a sense of divinity in that piece of rock. 158 00:18:41,372 --> 00:18:43,124 They're not just statues. 159 00:18:43,249 --> 00:18:48,129 They're our gods, they are our kings, they are our ancestors. 160 00:18:48,463 --> 00:18:50,673 If we are not careful, 161 00:18:50,798 --> 00:18:54,093 my children, the future generation, 162 00:18:54,177 --> 00:18:58,556 might lose the collective memory of their identity. 163 00:19:00,225 --> 00:19:03,144 I feel very uncomfortable 164 00:19:03,269 --> 00:19:11,444 that we transform a sacred value for people into money. 165 00:20:31,441 --> 00:20:33,818 Blue Tiger is extraordinary. 166 00:20:35,862 --> 00:20:42,160 He was a trusted lieutenant of Lion, the head of the gang. 167 00:20:50,376 --> 00:20:53,629 He has helped us tremendously. 168 00:20:53,796 --> 00:20:56,341 Given what was taken out of Prasat Krachap, 169 00:20:56,424 --> 00:20:59,552 as soon as I heard about the statues that came out of there, 170 00:20:59,635 --> 00:21:03,222 I knew that this was an extremely significant temple. 171 00:21:03,348 --> 00:21:07,226 I now believe it maybe is one of the most important ones in Cambodia. 172 00:21:07,477 --> 00:21:10,688 And Blue Tiger was there 173 00:21:10,772 --> 00:21:14,567 and participated in the removal of the statues. 174 00:22:28,766 --> 00:22:31,102 Khmer Rouge was a communist movement. 175 00:22:31,185 --> 00:22:37,024 They started guerrilla warfare from the early 60s. 176 00:22:37,150 --> 00:22:42,029 You know, in the 60s, President Nixon and his Secretary of State, Kissinger, 177 00:22:42,113 --> 00:22:45,283 planned a secret bombing of Cambodia. 178 00:22:45,366 --> 00:22:48,995 They bombed Cambodia without telling Congress. 179 00:22:55,126 --> 00:22:57,253 More bombs were dropped on Cambodia 180 00:22:57,336 --> 00:23:00,089 than any time before in mankind's history. 181 00:23:00,173 --> 00:23:04,510 I've seen anywhere from 150,000 people were killed and up. 182 00:23:07,638 --> 00:23:12,768 It definitely destabilized the country. There's no question about it. 183 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:22,236 The Khmer Rouge were empowered by the bombing 184 00:23:22,361 --> 00:23:26,866 because so many people in the countryside joined the Khmer Rouge. 185 00:23:28,409 --> 00:23:32,288 It's April 1975, Khmer Rouge soldiers 186 00:23:32,997 --> 00:23:37,877 are surging into Phnom Penh, Cambodia’s capital. 187 00:23:38,044 --> 00:23:42,757 Widespread panic permeates the streets, as the new government empties the city, 188 00:23:42,840 --> 00:23:46,469 marching the population in to the countryside. 189 00:24:00,316 --> 00:24:04,862 They undertook a very radical transformation of Cambodian society. 190 00:24:04,946 --> 00:24:06,864 They basically tore apart 191 00:24:06,989 --> 00:24:11,369 all the traditions and institutions of Cambodian life. 192 00:24:11,452 --> 00:24:17,083 So they tore apart families, schools, the government, 193 00:24:18,042 --> 00:24:22,129 Buddhism, all these things they tried to destroy. 194 00:25:09,468 --> 00:25:13,472 I think they've estimated between one and three million people died 195 00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:17,768 from either being murdered or from famine or illness. 196 00:25:17,893 --> 00:25:20,396 After the Khmer Rouge fell, 197 00:25:20,479 --> 00:25:22,690 all these people had been separated 198 00:25:22,773 --> 00:25:25,151 from their villages, from their families, 199 00:25:25,234 --> 00:25:27,653 they didn't know who was alive or who was dead. 200 00:25:27,737 --> 00:25:29,655 They had no income. 201 00:25:29,739 --> 00:25:33,576 It was a desperate struggle for survival. 202 00:25:33,701 --> 00:25:37,246 All kinds of looting of artifacts that took place. 203 00:26:03,856 --> 00:26:07,443 Looting, theft, it happens all around the world. 204 00:26:07,610 --> 00:26:11,489 In conflict and crisis zones, 205 00:26:12,031 --> 00:26:15,785 you quite often have a breakdown of the social order. 206 00:26:15,868 --> 00:26:19,288 You have opportunity for criminals, 207 00:26:19,372 --> 00:26:24,126 but also people we wouldn't necessarily think of as criminals, 208 00:26:24,627 --> 00:26:29,715 to take advantage of that situation, maybe to feed their families. 209 00:26:37,348 --> 00:26:41,727 In 2016, Latchford, he's just a blip on the radar screen. 210 00:26:41,811 --> 00:26:44,397 So my first question to myself: 211 00:26:44,522 --> 00:26:46,107 "What is Latchford about?" 212 00:26:48,025 --> 00:26:51,404 Latchford was born in the British Raj in India 213 00:26:51,487 --> 00:26:53,197 and then went to boarding school. 214 00:26:53,322 --> 00:26:56,283 When he was about 20, he moved to Bangkok. 215 00:26:56,367 --> 00:26:59,620 And then he just fell in love with Khmer culture 216 00:26:59,704 --> 00:27:03,666 because, of course, Thailand and Cambodia share a border. 217 00:27:03,791 --> 00:27:11,507 Latchford had a reputation for hanging out with the museum glitterati, 218 00:27:11,590 --> 00:27:13,592 the society people. 219 00:27:13,718 --> 00:27:17,138 He was a very high-profile character around Bangkok. 220 00:27:18,264 --> 00:27:22,685 I was at dinner one evening with François Duhau de Berenx, 221 00:27:22,768 --> 00:27:24,770 who was an interior decorator. 222 00:27:24,895 --> 00:27:28,899 François showed me a stone female torso, 223 00:27:29,024 --> 00:27:34,029 and it immediately had an effect on me that would change my life. 224 00:27:34,447 --> 00:27:37,575 I was smitten and could, from then on, 225 00:27:37,658 --> 00:27:41,412 think of nothing but this wonderful torso. 226 00:27:42,413 --> 00:27:45,249 He fell in love with it and he became this collector. 227 00:27:45,374 --> 00:27:49,754 And he started collecting Khmer antiquity at this voracious speed. 228 00:27:50,087 --> 00:27:55,176 He became one of the most preeminent scholars of Khmer antiquities as well. 229 00:27:55,301 --> 00:27:59,221 He wrote these three coffee table books that really catapulted his name 230 00:27:59,305 --> 00:28:03,309 to the top of people who knew anything about Khmer statuary. 231 00:28:03,476 --> 00:28:06,562 One of my jobs as a journalist in Bangkok 232 00:28:06,645 --> 00:28:09,857 was to write a story about Douglas Latchford. 233 00:28:09,982 --> 00:28:13,194 And he showed me through his place. 234 00:28:13,319 --> 00:28:15,654 Every little nook and cranny of that apartment 235 00:28:15,738 --> 00:28:17,656 had ancient artifacts sitting on it. 236 00:28:17,782 --> 00:28:20,743 He had beautiful artwork on the walls, it was very tastefully done. 237 00:28:20,868 --> 00:28:22,953 Pretty much like you'd see in a museum, 238 00:28:23,037 --> 00:28:26,457 but these were sitting on mantelpieces and shelves. 239 00:28:27,041 --> 00:28:30,252 You could see he had a deep affection for those pieces, 240 00:28:30,336 --> 00:28:32,338 probably more than he did for people. 241 00:28:35,174 --> 00:28:37,134 A fortune teller had told him 242 00:28:37,218 --> 00:28:40,095 that he had once been Khmer in a previous life, 243 00:28:40,179 --> 00:28:43,182 and that's why he loved all these Khmer statues. 244 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,522 It's very interesting because Latchford was both public and very secretive. 245 00:28:49,855 --> 00:28:51,190 On the public side, 246 00:28:51,315 --> 00:28:57,655 he tried to present himself as this adventurer-scholar, in his words. 247 00:28:57,738 --> 00:29:02,743 So this is kind of drawing on those colonial motifs 248 00:29:02,827 --> 00:29:05,830 of a very heroic European man 249 00:29:05,913 --> 00:29:08,624 who goes into the jungle and discovers lost cities. 250 00:29:08,791 --> 00:29:12,419 Somebody who rescued these Khmer artifacts 251 00:29:12,503 --> 00:29:15,256 that had been lost to the jungle. 252 00:29:15,339 --> 00:29:16,841 When I complimented him 253 00:29:16,966 --> 00:29:20,219 on the amazing array of things he had in his apartment, 254 00:29:20,302 --> 00:29:22,888 he laughed and said, "Yeah, but my best stuff 255 00:29:23,013 --> 00:29:26,559 "is at my daughter's place in Mayfair in London." 256 00:29:29,603 --> 00:29:32,648 Douglas owned the entire apartment block that he lived in. 257 00:29:32,731 --> 00:29:34,441 He kept a whole floor for himself. 258 00:29:34,567 --> 00:29:37,736 It's right on a canal in the middle of Bangkok. 259 00:29:38,070 --> 00:29:40,197 There was very heavy security there. 260 00:29:40,281 --> 00:29:43,242 I remember walking up to the window of the security guard there 261 00:29:43,367 --> 00:29:46,245 and there being a number of other security guards 262 00:29:46,328 --> 00:29:49,415 watching me from inside the gate, all bodybuilders. 263 00:29:49,540 --> 00:29:52,293 It wasn't just one or two guys, it was about five or six. 264 00:29:52,418 --> 00:29:55,462 Mini Schwarzeneggers, yeah, Pocket Hercules, 265 00:29:55,546 --> 00:29:59,049 whatever you want to say, but they're all muscle men, bodybuilders, 266 00:29:59,174 --> 00:30:01,260 and obviously very strong. 267 00:30:03,846 --> 00:30:06,473 One of the things I do as a hobby 268 00:30:06,557 --> 00:30:10,227 is to help the Thai Bodybuilding Association. 269 00:30:10,311 --> 00:30:14,523 I was elected as president of Asia earlier this year. 270 00:30:15,524 --> 00:30:20,112 I'm also president of the Thai Bodybuilding Association. 271 00:30:21,947 --> 00:30:26,118 His love of the Thai bodybuilding, 272 00:30:26,201 --> 00:30:30,414 so we're told, had more to do with his lifestyle 273 00:30:30,539 --> 00:30:37,338 than anything to do with sport. 274 00:31:12,957 --> 00:31:16,043 Halfway through the interview, he said "Let's have a pause," 275 00:31:16,210 --> 00:31:19,213 and he picked up a bell on the table, he rang a little bell. 276 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,258 The door swung open and a Thai guy came in 277 00:31:23,342 --> 00:31:27,471 with a tight shirt on and a tie, a butler-type guy. 278 00:31:27,596 --> 00:31:30,683 The bulging muscles were nearly splitting his shirt 279 00:31:30,766 --> 00:31:33,060 and he came in and said, 280 00:31:33,143 --> 00:31:36,188 "Would you like Earl Grey or English Breakfast?" 281 00:32:17,646 --> 00:32:21,275 It took a long time for them to realize who exactly this man was. 282 00:32:21,400 --> 00:32:26,905 For the longest time, he was just this kind of quirky, romantic figure 283 00:32:26,989 --> 00:32:29,324 who was this bodybuilding aficionado 284 00:32:29,450 --> 00:32:34,455 and probably kind of an interesting, strange dinner conversation companion. 285 00:32:36,373 --> 00:32:38,876 When I went and interviewed some of the looters, 286 00:32:38,959 --> 00:32:43,047 they talk about how they actually met with Douglas Latchford. 287 00:32:43,130 --> 00:32:48,177 So he has direct communication and direct access to the looters. 288 00:35:41,475 --> 00:35:43,602 We sat down with Blue Tiger, 289 00:35:43,727 --> 00:35:47,648 showed the images of artifacts that we were still hunting. 290 00:35:47,773 --> 00:35:51,693 He was able to and another looter was able to identify some pieces 291 00:35:51,777 --> 00:35:56,448 that they were directly responsible for having taken out of the country, 292 00:35:56,531 --> 00:35:58,242 which was so rare. 293 00:35:58,367 --> 00:36:02,454 The entire interview was a wow moment. 294 00:36:30,941 --> 00:36:36,113 We found on Douglas Latchford's computer a photo of this temple 295 00:36:36,196 --> 00:36:40,117 and it showed just the top of that piece up there 296 00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,662 and it was labeled "Peacock." 297 00:36:43,912 --> 00:36:45,956 We heard from Lion 298 00:36:46,081 --> 00:36:51,169 how he came here in 1997 and he dug up the peacock. 299 00:37:45,515 --> 00:37:48,268 I had my eyes wide open and my jaw dropped 300 00:37:48,352 --> 00:37:50,812 the entire time we were talking to them 301 00:37:50,937 --> 00:37:53,231 because who, what, where, when, how, right? 302 00:37:53,315 --> 00:37:55,776 That's what you need to prove a case. 303 00:37:56,651 --> 00:38:00,655 We have that from the mouth of the very people involved. 304 00:38:00,781 --> 00:38:06,286 The Skanda on Peacock statue, which sold for $1.5 million, 305 00:38:06,411 --> 00:38:11,333 I was able to successfully track it down and I got it returned to Cambodia. 306 00:38:53,792 --> 00:38:58,130 And then your hunt continues because there are so many of them. 307 00:39:27,033 --> 00:39:33,623 As we come to learn, there are different Khmer Rouge controllers of areas 308 00:39:33,707 --> 00:39:38,128 in between the temple in the forest, the jungle, 309 00:39:38,462 --> 00:39:42,257 and getting it across the border and into Thailand. 310 00:41:26,861 --> 00:41:31,032 He's selling statues for one, 1.5 a piece. 311 00:41:31,241 --> 00:41:35,704 We know Shiva and Skanda he tried to sell for $25 million. 312 00:41:35,787 --> 00:41:39,583 He had another statue, the Durga that's going back to Vietnam, 313 00:41:39,666 --> 00:41:43,503 he tried to sell for $34 million! 314 00:41:57,976 --> 00:42:01,021 Once I realized that Latchford's a bigger player, 315 00:42:01,104 --> 00:42:02,772 Latchford becomes his own board. 316 00:42:02,897 --> 00:42:06,860 Who are his sources? His sources are the looters in Cambodia. 317 00:42:06,985 --> 00:42:09,446 Who is he supplying? Numerous entities. 318 00:42:09,529 --> 00:42:13,408 They're going to supply museums, to supply gallery owners, 319 00:42:13,491 --> 00:42:15,535 to supply private collectors. 320 00:42:15,619 --> 00:42:17,287 Now, Latchford's in the middle, 321 00:42:17,412 --> 00:42:22,125 and you have those arms branching out to all these other people 322 00:42:22,208 --> 00:42:25,003 who have received illicit property from him. 323 00:42:25,086 --> 00:42:27,464 Who else is helping Latchford with provenance? 324 00:42:27,631 --> 00:42:29,424 Who are Latchford's restorers? 325 00:42:29,507 --> 00:42:32,260 And then his resellers, there could be a dozen of them. 326 00:42:33,178 --> 00:42:36,097 Before you know it, you have so many names on the board. 327 00:42:36,181 --> 00:42:39,601 It was simply a matter of: "Okay, what's next?" 328 00:42:45,482 --> 00:42:51,363 You know, among all the many people who aided and abetted Douglas Latchford, 329 00:42:51,780 --> 00:42:55,700 Emma Bunker is probably the most important person. 330 00:42:55,784 --> 00:42:59,788 Emma Bunker was a major co-conspirator of Douglas Latchford's. 331 00:43:00,830 --> 00:43:05,043 Because Emma Bunker was attached to the Denver Art Museum, 332 00:43:05,126 --> 00:43:08,129 Latchford could introduce pieces to a major museum 333 00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,342 and have Emma Bunker vouch for the integrity of the pieces 334 00:43:12,467 --> 00:43:14,386 for the purpose of laundering, 335 00:43:14,469 --> 00:43:18,973 so they could turn around and resell it using the name of the Denver Art Museum. 336 00:43:19,099 --> 00:43:21,893 "This piece was just shown at the Denver Art Museum," 337 00:43:21,976 --> 00:43:24,979 so no one would ever think that there was a problem with it. 338 00:43:25,063 --> 00:43:26,898 She was also a scholar. 339 00:43:26,981 --> 00:43:29,734 I think she never actually finished her PhD, 340 00:43:29,818 --> 00:43:34,072 but she did really want to be well-known as a scholar. 341 00:43:34,197 --> 00:43:36,032 And she helped him co-author 342 00:43:36,116 --> 00:43:39,202 a number of these coffee table books about Khmer statuary, 343 00:43:39,327 --> 00:43:41,996 which authorities later said were essentially used 344 00:43:42,122 --> 00:43:45,041 to launder these looted statues. 345 00:43:45,709 --> 00:43:48,962 Not everything that was photographed in the books was looted, 346 00:43:49,045 --> 00:43:50,380 but that's how it works. 347 00:43:50,463 --> 00:43:53,925 You take some legitimate ones, mix them with ones that are looted 348 00:43:54,008 --> 00:43:55,468 and poof, provenance, right? 349 00:43:59,180 --> 00:44:02,267 Provenance is the history of an artifact, 350 00:44:02,392 --> 00:44:04,728 meaning the ownership history. 351 00:44:04,811 --> 00:44:07,147 A lot of museums don't actually list provenance information. 352 00:44:07,313 --> 00:44:09,858 They would not share those details with us. 353 00:44:09,941 --> 00:44:12,235 There's a number of Latchford pieces 354 00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,114 that have an Ian Donaldson reference in the provenance. 355 00:44:17,282 --> 00:44:21,286 Some of them were supposedly written after Ian Donaldson had already died. 356 00:44:21,369 --> 00:44:26,040 It's clearly letters that were cooked up by Latchford 357 00:44:26,124 --> 00:44:29,210 just to be able to show the museum something. 358 00:44:29,753 --> 00:44:34,257 I mean, how cynical is that? You use your dead friend's name 359 00:44:34,340 --> 00:44:39,179 and you imitate, try to fake a signature for your dead friend. 360 00:44:39,304 --> 00:44:41,848 It's really quite sick, isn't it? 361 00:44:46,519 --> 00:44:49,063 There's a list at Homeland Security, 362 00:44:49,856 --> 00:44:53,693 and on that list is maybe a dozen museums 363 00:44:53,818 --> 00:44:55,653 that have Latchford pieces. 364 00:44:55,737 --> 00:44:58,323 The Met was in New York, I was based in New York. 365 00:44:58,406 --> 00:45:01,951 We knew they had some pieces. That would be the next one to go after. 366 00:45:03,453 --> 00:45:05,872 There are some clear signs of looting, 367 00:45:05,997 --> 00:45:09,209 and it's something we look for when we're poring over evidence. 368 00:45:09,292 --> 00:45:11,628 A statue will get broken into smaller parts. 369 00:45:11,711 --> 00:45:13,254 Makes it easier to ship. 370 00:45:13,379 --> 00:45:16,090 Soil deposits are a thing that we look for. 371 00:45:16,257 --> 00:45:20,303 Anything that's exposed to the elements, you start to see some corrosion. 372 00:45:20,428 --> 00:45:21,971 Corrosion is a red flag. 373 00:45:25,642 --> 00:45:27,769 We have security on the front steps. 374 00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,070 -Southeast Asia. -Southeast Asia, over there. 375 00:45:44,285 --> 00:45:47,914 There's so many pieces here that we have records on, 376 00:45:47,997 --> 00:45:49,958 I don't even know where to begin. 377 00:45:51,042 --> 00:45:53,336 So this headless female figure, 378 00:45:53,753 --> 00:46:00,260 we had the opportunity to speak with one of the looters in Cambodia, 379 00:46:00,635 --> 00:46:04,514 and he admitted his role in the removal of this piece 380 00:46:04,597 --> 00:46:07,225 and transfer across the border into Thailand. 381 00:46:07,725 --> 00:46:13,439 On the condition report for this piece, it notes burial soil found on the piece. 382 00:46:16,901 --> 00:46:19,654 For this bronze Avalokiteshvara, 383 00:46:19,737 --> 00:46:25,201 we know that it arrived heavily damaged, from the Met's own internal reporting. 384 00:46:25,326 --> 00:46:28,496 We have from Latchford's email source photos, 385 00:46:28,580 --> 00:46:32,792 source photos showing the piece in the condition in which it was found. 386 00:46:33,543 --> 00:46:38,464 This four-armed bronze Avalokiteshvara, 387 00:46:38,631 --> 00:46:43,303 the Met's own condition report states that it arrived heavily corroded. 388 00:46:43,386 --> 00:46:47,181 You can even still see parts of the corrosion 389 00:46:47,265 --> 00:46:50,810 on the top crown and on one of the arms. 390 00:46:50,894 --> 00:46:54,647 So, you know, typical evidence of pieces that were looted, 391 00:46:54,731 --> 00:46:56,566 when they arrive corroded. 392 00:47:06,367 --> 00:47:09,454 I have stuff on this one too. 393 00:47:10,496 --> 00:47:15,251 This standing forum Vishnu has so many discrepancies 394 00:47:15,335 --> 00:47:18,671 in the provenance documents contained at the Met. 395 00:47:19,297 --> 00:47:22,926 We learned the true story of when it was found 396 00:47:23,009 --> 00:47:25,261 and when Latchford acquired it, 397 00:47:25,345 --> 00:47:27,931 and we presented that evidence to the Met. 398 00:47:28,014 --> 00:47:32,226 It completely contradicts the story that they have on their own records, 399 00:47:32,310 --> 00:47:34,646 and we showed the documentation to support that. 400 00:47:34,771 --> 00:47:38,066 This piece has bad provenance and was looted, 401 00:47:38,232 --> 00:47:39,692 like so many others. 402 00:47:39,817 --> 00:47:42,695 It should be a no-brainer for this one to go back. 403 00:47:51,162 --> 00:47:55,041 I didn't run into him very many times, but I knew him. 404 00:47:55,124 --> 00:47:57,293 He's a person you stay away from. 405 00:47:57,377 --> 00:48:00,880 Do you recognize these pieces from the Met Museum? 406 00:48:01,047 --> 00:48:02,840 Either of these? 407 00:48:06,594 --> 00:48:10,056 These are obviously very good pieces, yeah. 408 00:48:10,473 --> 00:48:12,558 Yeah. Did you ever own them? 409 00:48:12,642 --> 00:48:14,102 Because in his emails... 410 00:48:14,185 --> 00:48:15,937 Did I own them? Or... 411 00:48:16,020 --> 00:48:19,023 So in his emails, in Latchford's emails, 412 00:48:19,148 --> 00:48:23,236 he said that you sold those to the Met, 413 00:48:24,112 --> 00:48:25,488 both of those pieces. 414 00:48:25,613 --> 00:48:27,782 -No, certainly not. -You didn't? 415 00:48:27,865 --> 00:48:29,450 Certainly not. 416 00:48:29,993 --> 00:48:31,244 Certainly not. 417 00:48:31,828 --> 00:48:35,748 If I would have owned them, I would have kept them. 418 00:48:36,833 --> 00:48:39,293 Evidence has been presented to the Met 419 00:48:39,377 --> 00:48:43,381 that a number of the pieces that they have were looted. 420 00:48:43,464 --> 00:48:44,757 Straight-up looted. 421 00:48:44,841 --> 00:48:48,886 Eyewitness testimony from some of the looters that were involved. 422 00:48:49,595 --> 00:48:51,848 From the late 80s into the mid 90s, 423 00:48:51,931 --> 00:48:55,768 the Curator of South and Southeast Asian Art at the Metropolitan Museum of Art 424 00:48:55,852 --> 00:48:59,313 had to fill an immense new gallery that they were building. 425 00:48:59,439 --> 00:49:02,859 One of the people that could supply that was Douglas Latchford. 426 00:49:17,832 --> 00:49:21,127 The Metropolitan kept saying to me, "Show me your evidence." 427 00:49:21,252 --> 00:49:23,671 And we kept asking them for their provenance documents. 428 00:49:23,755 --> 00:49:26,424 They kept saying, "Look at our website." 429 00:49:26,799 --> 00:49:28,718 There's hardly anything there. 430 00:49:29,135 --> 00:49:31,721 There's some records on some pieces 431 00:49:31,804 --> 00:49:35,308 where they have two conflicting pieces of provenance 432 00:49:35,391 --> 00:49:38,728 for the same piece in their records. 433 00:49:39,437 --> 00:49:41,230 Here's where we got the piece from, 434 00:49:41,314 --> 00:49:44,108 and a completely different story which contradicts that one. 435 00:49:44,192 --> 00:49:47,320 The years are off, the sources, the names are different. 436 00:49:47,403 --> 00:49:51,824 And they're in the same packet for one of the pieces on display. 437 00:49:55,036 --> 00:49:58,664 You'd think that the Met, with the team that they have, 438 00:49:58,748 --> 00:50:02,668 if they see different conflicting provenance and they have those records, 439 00:50:02,752 --> 00:50:04,670 that might raise a red flag for them. 440 00:50:04,796 --> 00:50:08,633 And no one has made the connection that they're different, right? 441 00:50:08,716 --> 00:50:11,052 Or that they conflict each other. 442 00:50:17,642 --> 00:50:22,063 To ignore the issue, I think it's disrespectful. 443 00:50:24,107 --> 00:50:27,151 My name is Sophiline Cheam Shapiro, 444 00:50:27,235 --> 00:50:33,116 and I am the founder and director of Sophiline Arts Ensemble. 445 00:50:34,283 --> 00:50:35,618 Performing at the Met, 446 00:50:35,785 --> 00:50:41,124 it was a form of quiet or silent protest 447 00:50:42,500 --> 00:50:47,338 to bring attention to the issues of looted antiquity. 448 00:51:04,313 --> 00:51:06,440 This is the Metropolitan Museum of Art. 449 00:51:06,941 --> 00:51:09,318 I'm more disappointed than I'm angry. 450 00:51:09,944 --> 00:51:12,363 It's the Met! Like, what are you doing? 451 00:51:15,783 --> 00:51:19,537 The Met Gala tickets are $75,000 each. 452 00:51:19,662 --> 00:51:22,081 I know nothing else of the Met Gala except that 453 00:51:22,206 --> 00:51:26,085 Kim Kardashian posed in front of an Egyptian sarcophagus made of gold, 454 00:51:26,169 --> 00:51:27,795 and we seized it! 455 00:51:37,346 --> 00:51:40,266 The old British museums used to argue that, 456 00:51:40,391 --> 00:51:45,688 "If we didn't save these, good lord, they would have just been lost!" 457 00:51:45,980 --> 00:51:47,940 Which probably isn't true, 458 00:51:48,024 --> 00:51:53,029 but it becomes a justification for basically handling stolen goods. 459 00:51:54,071 --> 00:51:58,201 Admittedly, these things were moonlighted out of Cambodia 460 00:51:58,284 --> 00:52:00,494 and wound up somewhere else. 461 00:52:00,578 --> 00:52:02,455 But had they not been, 462 00:52:02,538 --> 00:52:07,668 they would likely have been shot up for target practice by the Khmer Rouge. 463 00:52:08,836 --> 00:52:11,505 My bicycle isn't very well looked after by me, 464 00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:13,841 because I leave it outside all the time, 465 00:52:13,925 --> 00:52:16,385 but someone else always brings their bicycle inside 466 00:52:16,469 --> 00:52:18,512 and therefore it's in much better condition. 467 00:52:18,596 --> 00:52:22,058 That's not a reason for that other person to own my bicycle. 468 00:52:23,059 --> 00:52:27,813 When I buy a piece on principle, I thoroughly research it. 469 00:52:27,939 --> 00:52:31,651 I certainly don't want to buy a piece that's been stolen or anything. 470 00:52:32,068 --> 00:52:35,905 It is true that some of the temples there had pieces stolen, 471 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:38,741 but it wasn't on a large scale. 472 00:52:39,325 --> 00:52:41,077 Bullshit. 473 00:52:41,202 --> 00:52:42,745 That's not true. 474 00:54:19,550 --> 00:54:21,427 So this is a legitimate profession. 475 00:54:21,594 --> 00:54:23,471 But it's not legitimate 476 00:54:23,596 --> 00:54:27,350 when those restorers are taking in goods that they know are stolen 477 00:54:28,267 --> 00:54:30,436 and repairing them. 478 00:54:31,729 --> 00:54:34,065 Neil Perry-Smith is an art restorer. 479 00:54:34,148 --> 00:54:38,944 I arrested him for his role in restoring stolen and looted antiquities. 480 00:54:40,571 --> 00:54:43,032 Neil Perry was in London, 481 00:54:43,115 --> 00:54:46,202 and the artifacts had to be shipped to London 482 00:54:46,285 --> 00:54:49,205 for Neil Perry to start working on them. 483 00:54:50,373 --> 00:54:51,832 He helped Latchford 484 00:54:51,957 --> 00:54:55,920 to clean up and remove the dirt and other evidence of looting. 485 00:54:56,045 --> 00:55:02,885 Once a finished fully restored artifact is ready to sell, 486 00:55:02,968 --> 00:55:06,472 it's mostly Latchford reaching out to his circle, his crew, 487 00:55:06,639 --> 00:55:11,519 and showing pictures, and oftentimes those pictures show the pre-restoration 488 00:55:11,602 --> 00:55:13,813 and post-restoration photographs. 489 00:55:13,896 --> 00:55:15,731 So he's basically saying, 490 00:55:15,815 --> 00:55:19,735 "Here's when I found it, and here's what it looks like now." 491 00:55:19,902 --> 00:55:25,449 Take an artifact that was worth $100,000 to Latchford 492 00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:32,039 and it gets completely restored to where now he could sell it for millions. 493 00:55:36,377 --> 00:55:40,589 Museums were a little bit easier for us to investigate, the museum items. 494 00:55:40,673 --> 00:55:43,259 Private collectors, it's a whole different world, 495 00:55:43,342 --> 00:55:46,429 and it's very, very difficult as an investigative reporter 496 00:55:46,554 --> 00:55:48,681 because they're basically a black box. 497 00:55:48,764 --> 00:55:51,058 Unless the owners want to showcase 498 00:55:51,142 --> 00:55:53,436 their private collection for some reason, 499 00:55:53,519 --> 00:55:56,480 you might never know that that collection even exists. 500 00:56:00,526 --> 00:56:02,695 Brad sent me this very discreet picture. 501 00:56:02,862 --> 00:56:04,405 He had gotten it from an associate of Latchford, 502 00:56:04,488 --> 00:56:05,614 who gave him no information about it. 503 00:56:05,698 --> 00:56:07,408 "What do you know about this?" 504 00:56:07,533 --> 00:56:10,119 I said, "Oh my gosh, all of these Khmer antiquities 505 00:56:10,202 --> 00:56:13,414 "sitting in this billionaire's living room." 506 00:56:19,545 --> 00:56:22,548 Where did this come from? So we started trying to search. 507 00:56:22,631 --> 00:56:24,383 We found the name of the street, 508 00:56:24,550 --> 00:56:27,052 we found some details about the couple. 509 00:56:27,178 --> 00:56:29,722 Then we were able to kind of triangulate 510 00:56:29,889 --> 00:56:32,308 based on other real estate listings 511 00:56:32,391 --> 00:56:35,144 that had other similar pictures that matched, 512 00:56:35,269 --> 00:56:37,480 that this was actually the Lindemanns'. 513 00:56:38,814 --> 00:56:42,651 We have the Metropolitan Museum of Art and now we have the Lindemanns. 514 00:56:42,735 --> 00:56:46,322 In each of those, the number of pieces they had 515 00:56:46,489 --> 00:56:49,825 was far greater than we thought going in. 516 00:56:51,744 --> 00:56:54,830 George Lindemann Sr. was the patriarch of this family. 517 00:56:54,914 --> 00:56:58,501 He and his wife Frayda have tons of properties, tons of companies. 518 00:57:07,218 --> 00:57:11,305 Access to the looters puts a spotlight on the Lindemanns 519 00:57:11,388 --> 00:57:15,893 because the looters are referencing specific pieces. 520 00:57:16,602 --> 00:57:21,524 And we sat down with Blue Tiger, showed the images. 521 00:58:57,453 --> 00:58:59,622 We decided to do a spin-off investigation. 522 00:58:59,705 --> 00:59:02,625 Why do the Lindemanns have these pieces, and what else can we find? 523 00:59:02,750 --> 00:59:06,378 We started trying to track down any other photographs we could find 524 00:59:06,462 --> 00:59:07,504 of other properties, 525 00:59:07,630 --> 00:59:10,758 including this 2021 Architectural Digest spread, 526 00:59:10,841 --> 00:59:13,802 which we realized was Sloan Lindemann's. 527 00:59:13,927 --> 00:59:16,388 It was this beautiful courtyard 528 00:59:16,472 --> 00:59:19,141 that had these pedestals on it that were empty. 529 00:59:19,308 --> 00:59:21,268 Combing through Peter Marino's website, 530 00:59:21,352 --> 00:59:23,354 the architect who worked with the Lindemanns, 531 00:59:23,479 --> 00:59:26,148 and they found an identical photo, 532 00:59:26,231 --> 00:59:29,985 except these pedestals were not empty, they had heads on them. 533 00:59:30,110 --> 00:59:33,280 And they had these Khmer heads, really beautiful Khmer heads. 534 00:59:33,405 --> 00:59:34,823 To me, that's very suspicious. 535 00:59:35,240 --> 00:59:37,451 We have the picture with the heads, 536 00:59:37,534 --> 00:59:40,371 and then we have the same beautiful courtyard with no heads, 537 00:59:40,454 --> 00:59:41,914 actually photoshopped out. 538 00:59:41,997 --> 00:59:45,000 And we thought, well, this is great. 539 00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,631 It's not until we start getting records back 540 00:59:50,714 --> 00:59:53,217 and we're looking and we're like, oh my God, 541 00:59:53,342 --> 00:59:58,889 a massive collection of rare, extremely valuable and important pieces 542 00:59:58,972 --> 01:00:00,933 that needed to go back to Cambodia. 543 01:00:04,186 --> 01:00:09,233 The Lindemanns amassed a collection valued around $35 million. 544 01:00:09,316 --> 01:00:13,570 And people who have that much money, I think they want to be special. 545 01:00:13,654 --> 01:00:17,241 They want to have something special, something that nobody else has. 546 01:00:17,366 --> 01:00:21,328 The Lindemanns, they just weren't as cooperative. 547 01:00:21,995 --> 01:00:26,333 But ultimately, it came down to, you have a choice to make. 548 01:00:27,209 --> 01:00:29,920 We can go the easy way or the hard way. 549 01:00:54,319 --> 01:00:57,281 He certainly felt like he was untouchable, 550 01:00:57,364 --> 01:01:00,617 and so you might have to wonder why he thought so. 551 01:01:04,913 --> 01:01:06,915 One-track minded, 552 01:01:06,999 --> 01:01:11,545 and he had very good friends in high places. 553 01:01:12,713 --> 01:01:19,261 He was protected, and he wouldn't tolerate any competition. 554 01:01:20,804 --> 01:01:24,683 I got an email from Douglas saying he'd like to catch up with me 555 01:01:24,767 --> 01:01:26,810 at the National Museum in Phnom Penh. 556 01:01:26,977 --> 01:01:29,396 They gave him Cambodian citizenship. 557 01:01:29,480 --> 01:01:31,440 The Deputy Prime Minister at the time 558 01:01:31,565 --> 01:01:34,568 conferred Cambodian citizenship on Douglas 559 01:01:34,651 --> 01:01:37,613 because he'd donated so much to that museum. 560 01:01:37,738 --> 01:01:41,784 I have donated I think seven pieces back 561 01:01:41,867 --> 01:01:49,416 and I think these are primarily pieces that they don't have representation of. 562 01:01:49,500 --> 01:01:52,085 And my family and I have decided 563 01:01:52,169 --> 01:01:56,715 that in the future we would like to donate more back to Cambodia. 564 01:02:08,936 --> 01:02:11,814 Deputy Prime Minister Sok An came, 565 01:02:11,897 --> 01:02:15,651 made a speech, and gave me a Khmer title. 566 01:02:16,068 --> 01:02:18,946 A royal title. 567 01:02:20,113 --> 01:02:22,658 So he came, he lied to the Cambodians, 568 01:02:22,741 --> 01:02:24,785 he flashed around a lot of money. 569 01:02:24,868 --> 01:02:26,453 I think he tricked them. 570 01:02:26,578 --> 01:02:30,040 I mean, they probably thought they were doing the right thing. 571 01:02:30,123 --> 01:02:33,210 And in terms of getting these medallions, Boy Scout badges, 572 01:02:33,293 --> 01:02:35,003 yeah, great, knock yourself out. 573 01:02:35,379 --> 01:02:38,131 You know, it just legitimizes him. 574 01:02:38,298 --> 01:02:41,051 He's got his bodybuilders, his lawsuits, his lawyers. 575 01:02:41,134 --> 01:02:42,803 He's got the Bunker family. 576 01:02:42,886 --> 01:02:44,471 He's got lots of money. 577 01:02:44,596 --> 01:02:48,475 He had his addresses in London, museums around the world. 578 01:02:48,600 --> 01:02:50,561 He's got everything he wanted. 579 01:02:56,233 --> 01:02:58,569 With the bodybuilders came the bodyguards. 580 01:03:00,112 --> 01:03:05,158 They had a reputation that scared a lot of people, 581 01:03:05,284 --> 01:03:08,912 in particular local journalists and fixers 582 01:03:09,037 --> 01:03:12,332 who might be working on this type of story. 583 01:03:13,750 --> 01:03:17,921 He was offloading his collection in exchange for diamonds, 584 01:03:18,005 --> 01:03:20,257 in exchange for other antiquities. 585 01:03:24,761 --> 01:03:27,848 Hello? Good morning. 586 01:03:28,557 --> 01:03:30,475 Hi there. 587 01:03:31,685 --> 01:03:33,228 I got your email. 588 01:03:33,312 --> 01:03:35,647 Why are people interfering 589 01:03:35,731 --> 01:03:39,484 and coming to inform you that I sold some bronzes? 590 01:03:39,568 --> 01:03:43,655 Well, I think they were upset that things got sold. 591 01:03:43,739 --> 01:03:49,494 I think they thought that they were sort of important 592 01:03:49,578 --> 01:03:54,249 and it was funny that they were sold. 593 01:03:54,666 --> 01:03:56,585 I mean, I was surprised. 594 01:03:56,668 --> 01:03:58,295 Well, who told you this? 595 01:03:58,378 --> 01:04:00,547 Why were these sold? 596 01:04:01,340 --> 01:04:05,010 I think they were listed as Skanda Trust. 597 01:04:05,093 --> 01:04:07,137 What's it got to do with them? 598 01:04:08,639 --> 01:04:11,683 People get curious when they move around. 599 01:04:13,518 --> 01:04:16,730 -That's all. -Curiosity killed the cat. 600 01:04:17,689 --> 01:04:19,816 -So what else do you know? -Nothing. 601 01:04:19,900 --> 01:04:21,318 Anything new and exciting? 602 01:04:21,401 --> 01:04:23,445 No, everything's quiet here. 603 01:04:24,404 --> 01:04:26,615 Well, is that good or not? 604 01:04:27,824 --> 01:04:29,952 No news is good news. 605 01:04:32,454 --> 01:04:33,789 We see him conspiring 606 01:04:33,914 --> 01:04:36,917 between him and Emma Bunker or him and Nancy 607 01:04:37,834 --> 01:04:42,381 to manipulate the data or the information that's out there 608 01:04:42,464 --> 01:04:44,216 to sort of dance around it. 609 01:04:44,341 --> 01:04:46,760 Their imagination has gone wild. 610 01:04:47,761 --> 01:04:50,222 They've seen too many Indiana Jones films. 611 01:04:53,141 --> 01:04:56,603 Nancy Wiener was huge for the Latchford case. 612 01:04:57,270 --> 01:05:00,190 She was an art dealer in Manhattan, 613 01:05:00,273 --> 01:05:04,486 and she specialized in Asian and Southeast Asian antiquities. 614 01:05:04,611 --> 01:05:08,365 She was already being looked at by Homeland Security. 615 01:05:08,865 --> 01:05:14,162 In March of 2016, her gallery is raided and she's subsequently arrested. 616 01:05:16,581 --> 01:05:20,711 Having access to Nancy's records really is the breakthrough moment 617 01:05:20,794 --> 01:05:23,714 in the case against Latchford, because now we see, 618 01:05:23,797 --> 01:05:27,259 not only is he so blatant in his emails with her 619 01:05:27,342 --> 01:05:30,178 about where he's finding pieces in the field 620 01:05:30,262 --> 01:05:33,265 and the source and the condition that they're coming in, 621 01:05:33,348 --> 01:05:38,186 but he's also blatantly discussing with her how to make provenance. 622 01:05:38,395 --> 01:05:41,732 "What kind of provenance are you going to need to sell this?" 623 01:05:41,815 --> 01:05:44,151 "Is this good enough? I'll write this letter." 624 01:05:44,234 --> 01:05:45,986 He would send her little samples. 625 01:05:46,111 --> 01:05:49,698 So having her records blew the door open. 626 01:05:51,825 --> 01:05:55,579 I've just been offered this Sri Lankan bronze head. 627 01:05:55,662 --> 01:05:58,081 Height: 18 centimeters. 628 01:05:58,165 --> 01:06:00,834 I've compared it with one I had, it's the same. 629 01:06:00,917 --> 01:06:03,128 They're looking for the body, no luck so far. 630 01:06:03,211 --> 01:06:06,131 All they found last week were two land mines. 631 01:06:06,214 --> 01:06:09,301 What price would you be interested to buy it at? 632 01:06:09,384 --> 01:06:11,803 Let me know, as I'll have to bargain. 633 01:06:11,887 --> 01:06:14,347 I've got one fresh out of the ground. 634 01:06:14,431 --> 01:06:16,141 We're cleaning the dirt off it now. 635 01:06:16,224 --> 01:06:17,559 Hold on to your hat! 636 01:06:17,642 --> 01:06:20,645 Just been offered this 56-centimetre Buddha. 637 01:06:20,729 --> 01:06:22,606 Just excavated. 638 01:06:22,689 --> 01:06:25,734 It's still across the border, but wow! 639 01:06:26,359 --> 01:06:27,819 This is smuggling 101. 640 01:06:27,903 --> 01:06:30,197 The looter finds it, sells it to Latchford. 641 01:06:30,280 --> 01:06:34,034 Latchford's gonna turn around, sell it in Manhattan to an art dealer. 642 01:06:34,534 --> 01:06:41,333 For an investigator, you don't often get this smoking gun kind of material. 643 01:06:41,833 --> 01:06:47,798 We used the documentation that we received from Nancy to indict Latchford. 644 01:06:49,007 --> 01:06:52,636 In 2019, Douglas Latchford was finally indicted. 645 01:06:53,720 --> 01:06:55,806 Conspiracy to commit wire fraud, 646 01:06:55,931 --> 01:06:57,808 substantive wire fraud 647 01:06:57,933 --> 01:06:59,059 and smuggling. 648 01:06:59,935 --> 01:07:03,146 Conspiracy to commit an offense against the United States. 649 01:07:03,271 --> 01:07:05,732 Entry of goods by false statements 650 01:07:05,816 --> 01:07:09,111 and one count of aggravated identity theft. 651 01:07:16,409 --> 01:07:20,664 There were so many museums and dealers who dealt with him, 652 01:07:20,747 --> 01:07:23,333 and so if Latchford's being indicted, 653 01:07:24,209 --> 01:07:26,670 where's the shoe going to drop next? 654 01:07:26,753 --> 01:07:28,004 Possibly on them. 655 01:07:28,088 --> 01:07:32,843 And so museums are contacting us and they're notifying us in advance, 656 01:07:32,926 --> 01:07:34,469 they're saying, "We have pieces, 657 01:07:34,553 --> 01:07:37,305 "we don't want to have agents come storming into the museum. 658 01:07:37,389 --> 01:07:39,516 "We want to try and get ahead of this." 659 01:08:07,627 --> 01:08:09,838 At the same time he's indicted, 660 01:08:09,963 --> 01:08:12,424 doctors find him to be incompetent. 661 01:08:12,591 --> 01:08:14,134 I'm not buying any of it. 662 01:08:14,217 --> 01:08:19,014 So I send agents to his hospital room to actually inspect him 663 01:08:19,097 --> 01:08:23,768 and make sure he really is in as poor shape as they say he was in. 664 01:08:23,894 --> 01:08:28,064 And they actually confirmed that he was in pretty bad shape. 665 01:08:45,498 --> 01:08:49,336 Not long after that, his health continued to decline, and he passed. 666 01:08:51,087 --> 01:08:56,468 I would have liked for him to have faced his day in court 667 01:08:56,551 --> 01:09:00,263 and answer for the crimes that he committed. 668 01:09:24,621 --> 01:09:28,333 Douglas Latchford's family made an enormous amount of money from this, 669 01:09:28,458 --> 01:09:30,794 and they continue to hold onto that money. 670 01:09:30,877 --> 01:09:33,630 Julia Latchford is Douglas Latchford's daughter. 671 01:09:33,713 --> 01:09:35,966 Julia signed an agreement with Cambodia 672 01:09:36,049 --> 01:09:40,262 to turn over hundreds of pieces in the Latchford estate. 673 01:09:40,387 --> 01:09:43,640 It didn't make sense for Julia to hold on to pieces 674 01:09:43,723 --> 01:09:46,518 that she couldn't sell because they were tainted, 675 01:09:46,601 --> 01:09:49,312 and potentially she could be in violation of law 676 01:09:49,396 --> 01:09:51,731 for criminal possession of stolen property. 677 01:09:51,856 --> 01:09:54,734 You have the opportunity to come out smelling like roses 678 01:09:54,818 --> 01:09:56,653 and unload all this dirty material. 679 01:09:56,736 --> 01:09:58,655 I think for her, it was a no-brainer. 680 01:09:59,114 --> 01:10:03,285 We had to go through a process of working with a family representative. 681 01:10:03,368 --> 01:10:06,913 I went to London to drive with him to the countryside. 682 01:10:07,414 --> 01:10:10,750 So I went with him and we drove out to a pub. 683 01:10:10,917 --> 01:10:14,754 I took a photo of the pub when I walked up, 684 01:10:15,422 --> 01:10:17,382 just thinking if I disappeared, 685 01:10:17,465 --> 01:10:20,218 somebody could check my iPhone for that photo. 686 01:10:20,927 --> 01:10:25,932 And we went in to have lunch and Julia was there. 687 01:10:26,349 --> 01:10:29,019 And she's like, "Okay, you ready to see the gold?" 688 01:10:29,185 --> 01:10:31,896 She opens the trunk of the car, 689 01:10:32,022 --> 01:10:36,609 and she's got cardboard boxes in there, four cardboard boxes, 690 01:10:36,693 --> 01:10:39,988 and it's the Angkorian jewels. 691 01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:44,159 It's the crowns and the bracelets and the armlets 692 01:10:44,242 --> 01:10:46,369 from the Angkorian Empire 693 01:10:46,453 --> 01:10:49,706 in the back seat of her car. 694 01:10:49,789 --> 01:10:51,333 Not the back seat, the trunk. 695 01:10:51,458 --> 01:10:55,837 But she went and just opened everything and held it up. 696 01:10:55,920 --> 01:10:59,716 Showing me, "This is an earring, this is a bracelet." 697 01:11:00,592 --> 01:11:05,180 And I was deeply saddened and mortified 698 01:11:05,263 --> 01:11:09,267 that the treasures of this great ancient empire 699 01:11:09,351 --> 01:11:14,647 were in the back trunk of a car a couple hours outside of London. 700 01:12:20,839 --> 01:12:25,677 The looting didn't come directly from them. 701 01:12:26,719 --> 01:12:29,431 It came from Douglas Latchford. 702 01:12:34,310 --> 01:12:36,563 People can still do something good, 703 01:12:36,646 --> 01:12:39,899 even when they've done something horrible in their life. 704 01:12:40,024 --> 01:12:42,944 But when they did that when they were kids, 705 01:12:43,027 --> 01:12:46,906 they were in a very difficult position. 706 01:12:47,031 --> 01:12:49,451 It's remarkable, it's beautiful, 707 01:12:49,534 --> 01:12:53,621 and it's not something I would've thought of when I started. 708 01:12:53,746 --> 01:12:57,125 I think it's a beautiful story of redemption. 709 01:13:10,472 --> 01:13:12,849 The U.S. Attorney's Office of Homeland Security 710 01:13:12,932 --> 01:13:17,020 and the Metropolitan Museum of Art had been in negotiations 711 01:13:17,645 --> 01:13:20,231 over which pieces would be returned, 712 01:13:20,940 --> 01:13:24,903 and it was a surprise to me that all of a sudden, 713 01:13:24,986 --> 01:13:26,821 the Met just announced that 714 01:13:26,946 --> 01:13:31,910 we're going to return this batch of their Cambodian antiquities. 715 01:14:21,709 --> 01:14:24,045 The Met have given back these 14, 716 01:14:24,462 --> 01:14:28,967 by and large, because they know that they are connected to Latchford. 717 01:14:29,425 --> 01:14:31,970 If they thought that these were not stolen, 718 01:14:32,053 --> 01:14:34,681 I think they would never have given them back. 719 01:14:34,764 --> 01:14:37,809 I think they would have fought for the rest of my life, 720 01:14:37,892 --> 01:14:40,353 for a couple of generations. 721 01:14:44,816 --> 01:14:47,819 They have done something unprecedented, 722 01:14:47,944 --> 01:14:50,446 given back so many to a country like Cambodia. 723 01:14:50,613 --> 01:14:55,076 But there's no admission, there's no nothing. 724 01:14:55,243 --> 01:14:56,578 I think it's wrong. 725 01:14:56,661 --> 01:15:00,290 If they really want to sincerely help Cambodia heal, 726 01:15:00,999 --> 01:15:03,710 they need to give the provenance documents. 727 01:15:03,793 --> 01:15:05,878 They need to help us with the history. 728 01:15:06,462 --> 01:15:08,131 I believe that they know. 729 01:15:08,214 --> 01:15:10,049 They know the background. 730 01:15:10,133 --> 01:15:12,510 They know why these are blood antiquities. 731 01:15:21,436 --> 01:15:23,021 It's raining so hard. 732 01:15:23,688 --> 01:15:27,817 Is it a sign of joy? Is it tears of joy? 733 01:15:47,086 --> 01:15:49,714 After so many decades, after war, 734 01:15:50,298 --> 01:15:53,635 and so much havoc and damage in the country, 735 01:15:53,801 --> 01:15:57,263 I believe it's wonderful that Cambodia is now being recognized 736 01:15:57,347 --> 01:15:59,265 as a leader for restitution. 737 01:15:59,349 --> 01:16:03,353 This is a beautiful, beautiful message to the world. 738 01:17:26,185 --> 01:17:30,064 Having visited the different temples and seeing the empty spots, 739 01:17:30,148 --> 01:17:32,150 and seeing everything that was missing, 740 01:17:32,233 --> 01:17:35,278 it just made me realize that there's a lot of work to do 741 01:17:35,403 --> 01:17:38,614 and there are a lot of pieces out there still. 742 01:18:43,930 --> 01:18:47,391 To see so many people come together right now 743 01:18:47,475 --> 01:18:49,268 and do something positive, 744 01:18:49,352 --> 01:18:54,732 and to know that this has touched so many peoples' hearts, 745 01:18:54,816 --> 01:18:57,109 it's incredible. 746 01:21:57,832 --> 01:22:04,380 You know, Cambodia, we lived through war and genocide. 747 01:22:05,715 --> 01:22:09,135 If we are not focusing on the positive side of life, 748 01:22:09,969 --> 01:22:12,346 we all are crazy. 749 01:22:19,061 --> 01:22:24,900 It's hard to move on if you focus on the negative side of life. 750 01:22:30,322 --> 01:22:33,367 I know what it's like to have no hope. 751 01:22:33,909 --> 01:22:36,829 I know what it's like to live in fear. 752 01:22:37,246 --> 01:22:40,166 You know, we are not all that. 753 01:22:42,168 --> 01:22:45,337 There was a time, many centuries ago, 754 01:22:45,421 --> 01:22:48,966 that we had built a great civilization. 755 01:22:52,386 --> 01:22:56,474 They have gone, but their work stays. 756 01:22:58,017 --> 01:23:01,520 Past, present, and future can connect. 62062

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