Original subtitles

When you escape North Korea, how old

were you?

>> I was and then my mom say like if we cut

by government just blame on me and you

don't know nothing.

>> Okay. So the the the hardest punishment

is the public execution. When do you get

this punishment?

>> I watched the public execution with my

two eyes. Then what's the next level?

Labor camps.

>> They sending people there and digging

coil all their life.

>> That's forever.

>> Forever.

>> So the government is checking inside

your house. If the portrait, if your

house is in flames, is burning down, you

need to grab the picture before leaving

the house. And any religion class,

>> religion is like president. And if the

government knocks at your door and comes

to your house to get your poop and you

don't have enough, that's a punishment.

So you have to buy poop from other

people. And after releasing this

podcast, if you and I went to North

Korea, what would happen to us?

Online.chech.

Absolute

description.

Okay. So, I think we are recording.

Welcome Evelyn. I'm very excited to talk

to you. Very excited.

>> We brought you all the way from

Washington DC because you have a really,

really, really interesting story

escaping North Korea

>> and you've been in the US for more than

10 years. You were telling me before

before going live.

>> So, um Yep. Do you like Madrid? First

time here?

>> Yeah, first time here. I was in

Barcelona um one one or two years ago.

>> Okay.

>> And then I can't wait to come this city.

>> Nice, nice, nice. Glad to hear that.

Okay. So, before talking about your

story in in escaping North Korea, I

would like to to talk about the life in

North Korea before escaping. So, your

childhood, what for example, what's your

first childhood memory? I had um amazing

time with my friends and I love watching

a um dramas and watching a movies. So I

always watching a movie and I always

have to like curtain dark black curtain

up to my house window. Um especially at

the evening you cannot like lights go

out outside because um the police always

like checking on the house houses each

houses. So each um North Korean houses

like the um window is like all black.

>> Okay.

>> So that's why um I think that's why

nighttime when you guys looking at the

North Korea it's all dark.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. because uh whatever it's lighted

up um we we going to be in trouble. We

will um government going to find us and

then they're going to dig into your

household what's in there and what's

going on in your house. So we're trying

to not target it from government. That

was my memory. Like I every day I want

to watch something, I always have to

hide from uh what I'm doing. So you had

to hide to watch movies with your

friends.

>> Yes, watching uh watching movies with

friends and

>> but was it any sort of forbidden movies

like American movies or just normal TV

and movies from North Korea?

>> Um we don't we can watch like normal

movies but it have to be like um

magnolia um flower on it. So the

government they put the um magnoia

magnet like flower. Okay. Like it

>> like a logo

>> that means yeah it's a logo and then

that means this um CD is proved by

government.

>> Okay.

>> Those types of CDs you can watch but

like other than that like thumb driver

or like uh without any logo from

government it's illegal.

>> Okay. But do you remember your childhood

as a happy childhood?

>> Happy childhood. Yes. I do have quite

happy childhood than other people

because my mom she doing trade from

China, China to North Korea and my mom

she uh bring a lot of foreigners and

minks and um she have um she speak

Chinese and she building a relationship

with the Chinese people and building a

relationship with um North Korean

government governor people. So whenever

she bring like um stuff from China,

stuff means like furnitureures and uh

things what we wear, things what we eat

and she bring those things from China

import and then she gave government um

governor people that like what they need

like money or furnitureures and she gave

it to them and then trying to have some

uh acceptance. So she she was a

businesswoman, right?

>> Yes.

>> And your dad?

>> Um, growing up I I did unfortunately I

didn't have dad. Okay.

>> I only live with my mom's side.

>> Okay. Can I know why?

>> Um

um it's kind of my mom's personal story,

but they've been divorced.

>> Okay. Before you were born.

>> Yeah, before I was born. after I born

and then maybe eight months later

they've been divorced and they've been

separate and my mom took me from my dad

and then um ever since that I live with

my mom.

>> Okay.

>> But is it possible or even easy to do

business in being born in North Korea as

your mom did

>> or you have or you need some special

permissions?

>> Yes. lot of permissions and some a lot

of uh things are illegal but my mom she

make it to happen and North Korea is a

communism country but um it's all human

being everywhere you go it's we are all

human being and then we need um source

from like um getting getting a source

and we have to survive somehow so my

mom's case uh she was very lucky

to have those sources around her and

she's like dig into like what she needs

and like everything like that. And yeah,

some people I saw um they were

struggling on the other hand and they

were um they were dying for hunger and

they were selling like um sunflower

seeds on the street and they were

selling fishes and octopus on the street

and um like it's very

um hard and difficult life compared with

that and then uh for me when I was

childhood I was um um getting a lot of

candies from my mom. So my teeth get

like very um cav a lot of cavities

but I get fixed from um us and

so that was my happy childhood but ever

since I grow up um I realized this isn't

um right country to leave for. Yeah.

>> But would you say that in North Korea it

it's possible to trade like people are

are allowed to buy and sell goods and

services freely?

>> Yes.

>> Or everything is is determined by the

government.

>> Yes. Everything related to government

even your household even what you do

every single moves of what you do you

have to report government.

>> Even if you sell octopus in the street.

>> Yes. You need you need permission to do

so.

>> Yes, you have to um

you have to have like certain uh

permission and then um you cannot sell

it in the street. They're chasing you.

They're going to chase you and then I

heard like the government they brought

the truck and then um they're chasing

like people who selling uh products on

the street like green onions and like

all these like kind of like farmers

market, right? So government bring

brought the truck and then they taking

like people's um

products

and like people crying and then they um

they have like

>> um what's that called?

>> Like a cart.

>> Yeah, cart. Okay. They have small little

cart for them to move their products

around, but government they took it to

like put in the trunk and then they're

crying. That's all they have. And yeah,

it was sad to hear that when I was

young.

>> Okay. But in a system like the North

Korean one, can you become rich? Like

what your mom for example was rich in

the system.

Yes. Uh you there is people are rich

some people um born China uh born in

China living in North Korea it's like

kind of like half half citizen. Okay. So

they going back back and forth from

China to North Korea often. So they

they're like bring all the sources like

just like my mom. So those people are

rich but like other North Koreans uh

they getting products from those like

Chinese people who live in North Korea.

So, um I heard like one of my next

neighborhood uh one of my um next door

like he's from his family from China and

then he they're doing like what my mom's

doing. So, they were rich and then I

heard like they don't like the living in

China because their value going to going

down. So they're they're staying in

North Korea because they feel like um

wealthiness because um North Korean

people looking uh looking after them

like you know it's like they're um

they're more wealthy than like living in

China.

>> But we're we're not talking about a wall

street level of wealth with uh sports

cars and luxurious items or Yes. Are we

talking about that level of reach and

that level of life?

>> I don't think so. I never saw like I

didn't know what Benz is.

>> Okay.

>> When I was in living in North Korea, I

didn't I only know about Toyota and then

Honda.

>> Okay.

>> Only two Japanese cars. Other than that,

like I learned from like in US.

>> Okay. So, you can become rich but

compared to the North Korean basic

level, right? you you can be well off

better than the rest of the of the

people.

>> Yes.

>> In terms of food, what kind of food was

available in North Korea? What what was

considered luxury food when you were

living there?

>> Luxury food is like uh for example, you

you can buy whatever food you want like

you can one day you want to buy like um

fruits. Okay.

>> Fruits are very import

um it was a very north so it was really

cold area and then that time the paprika

I didn't know the paprika I thought that

was one of the fruit that time.

>> Okay.

>> And I realized it just a big colorful

colorful um pepper.

>> Okay. So

that time I was oh really I didn't know

it was I thought it was just fruit. It's

like banana collar and then maybe

tomatoes and yeah I was thinking what

those food but um paprika

>> um it was really expensive that time and

then um for the wealthiness um means you

can buy whatever you want.

>> Okay. But poor people in North Korea

people do they have access to eggs,

chicken, meat

>> or that's a something luxurious.

>> Yeah, that's very luxurious. And egg and

chicken. Egg egg is common like if you

um have chicken, you're on you own the

chicken. I mean of course you're getting

eggs from chicken, right? So that's like

common things. Um but some people even

there have like eggs from chicken. They

save it save it up and they sell it.

>> Okay.

>> To sell it to people who need eggs

>> and that's legal to sell your eggs.

>> Everything is illegal in communism

countries I think.

>> So these people can be punished.

>> Yes.

>> And how are these punishments? So if you

uh those small little like um businesses

>> you cannot really you cannot like really

find it easily. So um you hide it as

much you can. So if you cut by

government um they you have to write

down like 10 or 20 pages like oh I'm

sorry I sell the eggs. I shouldn't do

that. like that was my by mistake and I

should follow like Kim's um Kim's words

like I think dialogues you have to use

the dialogues to like oh Kim um how I

say this the president said this is but

like I didn't follow I'm sorry

>> okay

>> so you have to write down whole thing

and then maybe stay in police station

couple days because it's not that um big

a

Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> But the this black market is is big. If

it wasn't because of the black market,

what would people eat?

>> Um I think like there are sources

from what they have like chicken and

then pigs and um it have to be have

market.

>> Okay.

>> I think otherwise it's uh very difficult

to uh live life

>> because otherwise the government is not

providing food for the people. No

government only providing a food for

like for example I am um I working in

government um North Korean government's

um company and they they going to

provide me one bottle of oil and 1

kilogram of rice and then certain things

and then that that's it like it it's not

going to enough for one month.

>> Not enough.

>> Yeah. Not enough for

>> So if it wasn't because of the black

market, people would would be starving

to death basically.

>> Yes. Yes.

>> And this happens.

>> Yes. This happens quite often.

>> So people are starving in North Korea.

>> Yes. People are starving and I remember

um like China make a lot of lot of like

jackets and lot of like fake Adidas and

all that stuff, right? I remember um I

went to my friend's house. Um, she

making a bunch of jackets to send it

back to China. And I don't know how it

works, but like she doing a lot of like

hand like things like every single day

making all like five or 10 and then get

it really cheap and that's what I saw.

And then I went to different house and

they don't have any furniture in their

house and they're just put a blanket and

then just lay down with a blanket and

that's it.

>> So that's a normal house in North Korea.

>> Normal house.

>> How is how does it look usually? A

normal house. So not even furniture. How

many people live in there? The whole

family, grandparents, the kids. Um,

North Korea is very old-fashioned and

also um very old tradition. So, a lot of

people are making a babies and they

marry early because they're very

innocent and they don't they don't know

things much. So, they

um they they make a family quickly. So

like four people living on one house and

like live all uh sleep all together and

uh like people who work hard they they

have like furnitureures like

refrigerator and TV and um CD player

like all these machines you can have it

and then but some people um even they

have it they sell they have to sell it

because for uh because they need to um

eat.

>> Okay.

>> For eat.

>> So they are selling their furniture

because they need food otherwise they

they would die.

>> Yes. Basically.

>> And and and how hard is the control of

the government on the people?

>> How hard?

>> Yeah.

>> What do you mean by

>> like it's very severe like like people

are really really really controlled by

the government.

>> Yes. You have to um you have to wear

there's a one of day like um it was

government votes like voting voting a

government right I got I mean president

>> I don't know every four years every one

year I was kid so I don't remember

exactly but every year um certain

certain year you have to vote and then

you have to wear the dress to like um

just voting like one president. So I I'm

I'm thinking right now like what's the

matter of like voting? If you just

voting one person, there is not even

second person to vote. Just like one

person to everybody have to vote one

person then like what's the point of

voting?

>> So they can call it that democracy

basically.

>> Yeah.

>> But only one option. So you go to vote

but there's only one option.

>> Only one option. There's there's nothing

and there's nothing in our brain because

uh on the TV always showing Kim's

generation Kim Kim Kim Kim.

>> Okay. And I've also read that there's a

social classification in North Korea,

right? How how does it work? Are there

different levels and according to your

level you can access different jobs,

different schools, a certain level of

life or how does it work?

>> Um I think

>> is the sunbun something like that.

>> Yeah. Songbun. Yeah, sunbun is the like

level of the um where you at. Like for

for for example like for my family we

oursun was bad.

>> Means like your background of like grand

generation like is it your is was your

grand generation working at government

and serve the government or military. So

if you serving a government or military

your son uh the background going super

higher.

>> So so you are born in your sunbun

>> right? Yes.

>> You you don't build it during your life

but you are born in it.

>> You born in it.

>> Okay.

>> Yes. You born in it. So my for example

my grandpa he living in South Korea and

he born in North Korea. Oh, he born in

South Korea but he went to North Korea

with his mother because he born there

because he born in South Korea he's his

background cannot go grow.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah. Even he finished uh college even

he get a like um tang means like

leveling up your um um background. Okay.

>> For related to government. So even that

his um his life future is limited.

>> Okay. And how is it organized? How many

levels is is it like um system of rating

or a system of different fixed levels?

>> I think it's not like you say it like oh

your background is bad like you you

don't really see it say it but like you

can you can feel the energy. But are you

aware of it or only the government knows

your sunbun?

>> Government know about your sunbun. You

know about your sunbun.

>> Okay. So you you're aware of it.

>> Yes.

>> All the time. Okay.

>> So you know what your possession is and

then if government rejected whatever it

is and then you know like okay my

background wasn't good that's why.

>> Okay. And what does it mean to have a

low sunburn as it was in your case?

Um so our family had a low sunun but

like we try we keep working for ourself

and we trying our best to leave our life

better. So like we don't we we forget

about those hungs.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. We forget about like all those

backgrounds. We um we go to different

path to figure it out life. So that's

why I'm here, I think.

>> Sure. Sure.

>> Yeah.

>> And before we were talking about the

starvation, did you feel real hunger at

any point of your life or you saw people

starving with your own own eyes?

>> Yes.

>> When you were in your childhood

probably.

>> Yeah. Unfortunately, um I don't have

anything to share for like I've been

starving in North Korea and I heard

about like oh North Korea you guys must

be poor and oh um let's let me hear

about like Kim's family. Oh what's going

on like like sometimes I can feel those

like look down on me because like I I

feels like they're looking down on me

because it's a poor country. It's like

third rare country but um even it's

third rare country um someone is lucky

someone is work hard to leave and work

their life harder to make it happen. So

um unfortunately I don't feel um the

hunger but I remember like in the

supermarket

like I eating like um food like walking

and then just going home and then just

eating food in the mouth and then just

eating and then someone just grabbing

food and then that was scare me a lot.

But it was like guy who who was like we

call it it's like homeless.

>> Okay. But homeless in North Korea is

very aggressive

because they're very hungry.

>> Sure.

>> Yeah. Very very aggressive. Like so

they're just he just scrubbing on like

food and running and then just run away

just one second, two second.

>> So there's homelessness in North Korea.

>> Yes. Homelessness.

>> Okay. And and why is that? Do they have

a job from the government as well? They

have options. A lot of lot of them are

orphans.

>> Okay.

>> Orphans. Because a lot of North Korean

woman go to China to like um like a lot

of North Korean woman think uh if you go

to China you can you can get money from

u China. Sure.

>> So they escape and they cannot come

back. So even they have kids in North

Korea they cannot come back. And then uh

men's male in North Korea usually they

go to like military for 10 years.

>> So the responsibleness

with the kid is mostly mom.

>> Okay.

>> So um lot of kids were orphan.

>> Okay.

>> And they just

>> Yeah. They were really um when I look at

them they're very sad because like their

leg is half of their leg is gone. I

don't know what's happening. They're

sleep outside, maybe having a infection

feet and then like maybe eating all

their legs. I have no idea. There the

kid have like like legs cut off and then

um the younger sister he like

um

>> covered.

>> No, younger he was like put his younger

sister in his bag and carrying her

around.

>> Okay.

>> In North Korea. Yeah.

>> Okay. So, so you could see a lot of sad

images like this in the street.

>> Yes, it was really sad.

>> Like sick people, people.

>> Yeah. Sick people and then like like

sick kids and there are like uh very

black um they don't even shower at all.

So, they're like all black. And then um

the kids was like um nearby food market

like what's that called? Foods and

stuff, right? Um they were sitting there

and think like whenever the food is

dropping on the floor they're just

eating it. It just really sad.

>> And this is something very normal in

North Korea.

>> This you can see many of

>> Yes. You can see many of these kids when

I was living there I've been ignoring it

because I'm scared they're going to

attack me.

>> Okay. So, I'm trying to not having eye

contact with them as much I can because

um they're sometimes they become very

aggressive as I said like when I eat

food and then they're just grabbing it

fast and they're just um having a um

tools to taking out monies um their uh

people's pocket.

So,

>> they're desperate.

>> Yeah, they're desperate. And then also

like family hall uh when you sleep at

night like 1 or 2 p.m. is like 1:00 p.m.

to 3:00 p.m. I think that's people

deeply sleep most people. So they know

they are targeting those sleeping hours

to get into households to like getting

like a lot of stuffs and our family um

had experience like that too.

>> Okay. How did you feel about it back

back then? Were you sad about it? Were

you scared?

>> I was scared. I was kissed. So I was

>> Was it normal for for you or you thought

it was really sad to see that?

>> Um right now um I feel very sad and hurt

for those kids who never shower, who

never uh feel this much freedom and I'm

very sad for them. But that time I was

really scared of them.

>> Okay. Sure. Sure. But people kill at

night.

>> Okay.

>> They come to your house. Sometimes

mostly it's military. I heard like they

don't um militaries they don't provide

food to military enough. So the

militaries are hungry. So they are

coming from mountain and at night

they're like um attacking people's sleep

>> and sometimes like you kill people to

grabbing all the stuff

>> just to rub them.

>> Yeah. Rub them and sometimes like people

just uh pretend to be sleep

>> because they don't want to die.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. I see. And what was

your vision of the rest of the world of

the world when you were living in North

Korea? Were you aware of the freedom in

other countries of different cultures,

different religions or not at all?

>> Well, I don't I didn't know about like

different religions at all.

>> Okay.

>> Um since I came out, I know about God,

but before I didn't God and um Buddhism

and all different rel uh religions I

know in US, but before I didn't know

about it at all. So

>> and the about the different continents

and countries and different part of the

worlds and different people, different

languages. Were you educated on this and

were you aware of it or you thought that

the whole world was North Korea for

example?

>> Um I did saw like this word map like the

circle word map and then like we have it

in the classroom. Okay. all the time but

teachers they never taught us.

>> Okay.

>> It's just like one of the furniture.

>> Okay.

>> It's like one of thing there.

>> So I didn't know what it is. It's just

like circling around and um

>> like a toy.

>> Yeah. It's like toy.

>> Okay.

>> So

>> So you were not really aware or or you

were you wouldn't even ask if there was

something else but North Korea, right?

>> Yes. the teacher never taught us even

the word map was in our classroom and

then uh the China only thing is China is

very close and India

>> um I don't know where it existed in the

map but um China and then India is very

nearby

>> and people know it

>> yeah people know it because if we watch

lot of uh movies and dramas like from

China and then if We watched the South

Korean drama.

>> Um it was very eye opening because they

um they use different um sounds.

>> Okay.

>> So

>> in terms of accent

>> Yeah. accent

>> different accent.

>> Yeah. Different accent. So it was really

uh interesting. But uh North Korean

government if we caught by North Korean

government we watching the um South

Korean drama, it's big trouble.

>> Okay. And the currency in North Korea is

very weak, right? So if you make make

money outside, for example, in China,

you're very well off in North Korea,

right? So people that were bringing

money from the outside were well off.

>> Mhm.

>> Okay. Okay. I see. Um in these movies

that you were watching from South Korea,

from China, could you see something very

because this is approved by the

government, all all of these movies,

right? Yes. So could you see something

really different about the capitalism in

South Korea for example or different

ways of living or it was not very eye

opening

>> these movies

>> these movies are very eye opening for me

but even other people watching it I

think it's impossible for them to go to

um go to different countries

because uh for me when I watch it like

oh China have like the office like high

tall building and then they have like

office dramas um like they making a

dramas and movies.

>> Okay.

>> And then um it was really eye opening.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> I would love to speak about school

>> school

>> and your education in in general. How

was it? Um school life it was um it was

not fun but

dating part is always fun.

>> Dating.

>> Dating. Yes.

>> Okay. At school.

>> Yes. At school. And

>> um the school life uh girls there were

uh rich girls the school giving you

uniform. Okay.

>> But the uniform material is very harsh

material. Okay. So uh if girls families

they have some money, girls and guys

family have some money,

>> you um you order it.

>> Okay.

>> You order like you order like similar

color but better mater soft material and

then girls like um the wide

>> um hand and then wide um what's that

called?

>> The skirt.

>> Skirt. Yes.

>> So you can do it like that. But if you

cut by uh school principal or school

leaders um the school leaders they're

just cutting them because it's too too

stylish and you cannot be popped.

>> Okay. And and poor kids go to school as

well.

>> Yes. Poor poor kids, rich kids uh they

go to all same school but poor kids

don't go to school often because they

have to helping their family out and

also school always need um always need a

help like after school you have to do

mandatory uh work like for example we

fixing we bring the uh rocks to the

train station make it um make a train

running so it it's it's kind like our

job and even if like uh stat what's that

called Kim's family we have like a lot

of statues for Kim's family okay

>> so we have to make it nice so we getting

like uh we go to grass in the springtime

and get all the grass seeds with the um

cap and then um bring to the teacher

>> okay

>> that's like that's our job

>> okay and and how much of the the school

curriculum room was academic versus

political.

>> Yes, very political. Uh political about

Ollie um North Korean Kim's family. So

for example like oh Kim's family

grabbing like um rainbow and like very

like unicorn making a unicorn stories.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> So everything was around the the family.

>> Yeah. Even though like we have test like

very long rest of test it about like

Kim's family.

>> Okay.

>> So you have to memorize what it is

>> in terms of for example history would

you say?

>> Yeah that's a history

>> his

>> history one history two history three

>> of the family

>> of family

>> not about the Roman Empire or anything.

I wish I learned that. But I I learned

that in uh US.

>> In the US, but in North Korea,

everything around the school education

is around family.

>> Yeah. Half of it is around family, their

family.

>> Okay. And any religion class or

something around the family?

>> Religion. Religion is like our

>> the president. The president.

>> Yes.

>> Wow. And and how does an like an

ordinary day at school, how does it look

like from start to finish?

>> Start to finish.

>> Yeah. You arrive and is normal classes

or you have some I don't know some

different routine where you do some for

example in in some places they they

pray. I bet you didn't pray because you

you're not religious in in North Korea,

but maybe

do something around the family for

example. or or is it normal classes like

1 hour by one hour in different lessons

like math? Um

>> yes.

>> Yep.

>> Yeah, we do have Yeah, we do have like

that. So, um so I wake up 6:00 a.m. in

the morning. Okay. And then I go to I

have to arrive school 7 a.m. and then um

the leader like adult leader in like

uh like for example 6 um so there

there's like adult leader and then um

they're standing there in the front gate

checking on your um

>> outfit

>> outfit check. Okay.

>> Make sure they wear correct uh outfit

and then correct shoes

>> and you cannot have long hair like this.

>> And then you cannot dye your hair at

all.

>> Okay.

>> And you have to cut your hair below like

2 cm from your ear.

>> Okay. And they check that daily.

>> They check that daily. And then the guys

have to have short hair.

>> Okay. So if you get late like for

example you you came to school 7 7:40

the school starts 7 o'clock and you have

to be there 7 o'clock but you you are

late 45 minutes uh you have to stand

front of the gate and then if you wear

the uniform not correctly you stand the

stand the um front gate.

>> Okay.

>> So like lot of students like line up

before the class start.

>> Okay. And then um uh 8:00 we have little

quick announce.

>> Okay.

>> So the uh the school is like three

floors. So everybody in the school room

or everybody what they're doing coming

out outside and then we're line up and

then um teachers and principal announce

about um your um your grade and also

they're embarrassed about the these kids

>> like oh look at these kids like they

don't even wear like this and

>> so they they make the rest of the people

make fun of them.

>> Yeah. make fun of them like look at them

like they're like head down. It's kind

of like Korean culture. You cannot look

up. Okay.

>> So, I've been having hard time to

talking to people like eye to eye.

>> Okay.

>> My um teacher in US they teach me they

taught me you have to when you talk to

people you have to talk to them eye to

eye.

>> It's uncomfortable for you at the

beginning.

>> Yes.

>> Was uncomfortable. It was it was a

respect way to make me uh have to look

down like that and then like don't have

eye contact but I learned that from

there too. So anyway um like they make

the line up and then all these kids are

like put their head down and their face

get red and

their teachers are make fun of them.

Look at this kid. They're he trying he

or she trying to be so stylish today.

Look at the hair. What's going on? Like

you know.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> But their their score you know why you

guys their score score is terrible

because they're too stylish. Like you

know it's like

>> something bad.

>> Yeah. Something bad. Talk down on them

and then

>> Okay. and then we um quickly wrap it up

and then we get into classroom. Okay.

>> So in one classroom finish until like um

whole high school terms but in US uh you

change the classroom around and teachers

are staying the one classroom. Okay.

>> But in North Korea the teachers um

switch around the class.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. And and what subjects do you have

like normal subjects like you can have

in the US or you remember something

different in particular?

>> What subject we have?

>> Yeah.

>> Um we have math class and then we have

English class.

>> But I did take English but when my

grandma's um time um she said she take

took the uh Russians. So she speak like

tasana and like these things couple of

things she taught me but for me um we

memorizing like English so hard and like

I I didn't like I didn't

I wasn't good students to be honest.

Yeah.

>> Okay. And how long does it take the the

whole school journey?

>> Mhm.

>> You is the same as

>> 7:00 to 300 p.m. or 3:30? Yeah. No, but

in terms of years, you have like like um

elementary school, then you moved to

high school and university just same

path as in Europe or the US.

>> So when I was there, uh I think things

are kept changing.

>> Okay.

>> In that system. So um school is free but

actually not free.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. because you have to pay like um

certain things like um I don't know they

they you have to bring like sometimes

you have to bring poop to school.

>> What

>> poop? Like yeah poop and pee to school

because um

>> it's a natural

>> um I don't know natural thing for the uh

agriculture.

>> Okay. So it it helps a agriculture

>> to like grow it fast faster or

something.

>> Wow.

>> So I remember like after the uh winter

gone like all these like things are

frozen and we put in the pocket uh

bucket that the teachers are like okay

one bucket, two bucket like they're

counting on those.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> And then

>> wow. And then for our house, um, we

don't have that much of, you know,

things. And then like we just pay for

it. For example, like $1 or $2

>> to buy poop.

>> Yeah. Because we don't provide a poop.

So we just pay for the um

>> But this is for the kids at at school or

the households as well have had to

provide.

>> Yeah. Like whole thing. Whole family

households. Each household have like um

>> So your poop is controlled by the

government.

>> Yes.

>> For what? Why?

>> For agriculture.

>> So they will they

>> but you know in US and I don't know

about in Spain but I saw when you go to

like Home Depot you have like um make

some things to grow quickly, right? Make

it plants healthier.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Sure. Sure.

>> But instead of that

>> it's used.

>> Yeah. Instead of that, we use our own

poop to like provide those like um dirt.

>> But if the government knocks at your

door and comes to your house to get your

poop and you don't have enough, that's a

punishment. So you have to buy poop from

other people.

>> Yes.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. So even the poop is controlled by

the government.

>> Yes. Even though every single little

thing is controlled by government, every

single thing if you don't have it, you

have to pay for it.

>> Wow. I almost forgot. This is a a gift

for you. This is a a battery for your

phone. Okay.

>> It's a brand I have. I I I produce in

China. That's why I go there often. And

yeah, thank you so much. I hope you use

it.

>> Thank you. That's so kind.

>> I also want to ask you um what were you

taught about the family at school?

>> What do they do? They present the family

as gods as a superior being or something

like the the

>> uh family we don't we cannot use like uh

their names fully.

>> Okay.

>> Like Kim Jong-un like we cannot call the

names. Okay.

>> Because we look at him very high.

>> Okay.

>> And

>> so like a god.

>> Yeah. It's like god. And then uh I

remember

at in the classroom um Kim Kim Jong-un's

dad was died when I was at the school

time and it was like getting close to um

that was like last period of the

classroom and then um the school

announced like Kim Kim Jong-un's father

was died on the train like for like he's

working because He was like trying to

work hard for our country. So he passed

away in the train. He wasn't even passed

away in the room. Like they put it like

that. And then um he was eating a like

triangle rice all the time because he

was so busy with the work.

>> Okay.

>> So we're like crying and then all the

kids are like laughing like, "Oh my god,

we need to go to go home. Okay,

everybody go home." and then change

change our clothes and have to come back

to work and then everybody was excited

to go home and then school announced

um all the kids become sad. We have to

>> you have to become sad.

>> We have to sad. We have to be sad.

>> So these famous videos where you see all

the people crying super hard because the

leader died.

>> Yes.

>> This you have to otherwise you'll be

punished.

>> Yes. Otherwise you going to um your

teacher going to talk to you like hey

you cannot do this you cannot

>> as a kid.

>> Yeah.

>> But as an adult you can be punished as

well right?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. But this is um do they just tell

you like hey you have to be sad.

>> No it's not you have to be sad but like

uh be polite for because our president

was die. present is die.

>> So it's polite.

>> So be polite.

Don't don't smile. Don't laugh. And

don't be loud.

>> And the more you cry, the more polite

you are.

>> Yes. So, I remember I remember wake up

early early morning like 3:00 a.m.

like I wake up 3:00 a.m. and then go to

my friend's house to um hey friend let's

go to um statues like Kim's family

statues and then cleaning up. I always

go there for cleaning up or because I

want to be good students.

>> Okay. Okay. And what what kind of

punishments can people face? If if for

example they don't want to cry. They

don't want to be sad. I'm I'm not sad.

So I don't want to express I'm sad. I

won't do it.

>> What's the punishment?

>> They going to look at you, give you side

eyes.

>> But what else? What can the government

do to me? The are there labor camps in

North Korea?

>> I don't think so. You go to labor camps

for that.

>> Okay. just uh the all the energy

>> it's um everybody have to uh everybody's

a sad mood

>> but they exist this labor camps

>> yes

>> do they exist

>> and I I have a question in at school

children would question what they were

taught even in privately even in private

>> what do you mean by private what

questions

>> they were yeah like they were not too

sure if the if the school agenda was

accurate or not They were

>> You mean the um gendle gender?

>> No, no, no, no, no. If they if they were

if they would question the

everything I mean people people in

general

>> people in general

>> in private like in in in conversations

at home

>> they were happy with the

whole thing. I mean they're always

survival mode people especially adults

they're all survival mode what they can

do what they can uh find their job to

what what to survive so most of people

doing like small businesses

>> okay

>> uh my mom she's um luckily doing big

businesses to um share all these small

businesses getting like

>> okay

>> um things but people are just always

survival mode and then kids

>> they're obvious Initially their kids

they don't have much cautions they don't

know things much

>> okay so my question was basically if the

teacher comes to the class and say okay

Kim Janun it's a god

>> were kids like talking in private like

I'm not too sure about this or this is

I'm not really making questions in

private

>> or not really

>> not really

>> not really

>> not really just

>> um even even those private things it's

illegal even like uh we watching a TV,

we're like doing something like um for

example, we like kids are kids, we want

to do clothing, right? Like dancing and

singing. So we don't have club in North

Korea, but we come to like private area

at home and then we make it like

clothing

>> like a little disco night.

>> Yes, disco noodle disco night. Okay.

>> So, we use this like disco music,

>> but this is illegal as well.

>> It this is extremely illegal. Sometimes

the music was too loud. Sometimes the

police like come in and then guys like

running to the window and then they're

just jumping out of the window, running

so hard and then like

>> yeah,

>> it's chaos after. So, these little

things are everything every single moves

illegal. Okay. So we don't talk about

like oh are you sure about Kim's family

like

>> okay

>> even those things are very dangerous um

topics

>> okay so avoiding it

>> okay okay okay and at school all the

creative work like drawing uh drawing

like music um could you do whatever you

want as a children or not really there

was a lot of creative tasks

>> creative task Yeah. Like like maybe

would you have to draw to sing or

something like this? Absolutely.

>> You mean the artist?

>> Yeah. Were you did you have any freedom

to create

>> creative creativities?

>> Yes.

>> I see. for drawing for example for

painting or you had to do

>> if you're good at painting and drawing

all that and then the government use

that person to be u post car all the

time like for example America is our

anime enemy

>> okay

>> so they put like big nose to the post to

make people hate

>> okay so at school you received a lot of

inputs saying that American Cancer the

enemies.

>> Yeah.

>> At school.

>> At school. Yes.

>> What kind of inputs?

>> Um like old old photos.

>> Okay.

>> And then they put like pregnant woman

especially like third in our school

third um floor. It's history class

history um place. So they put like in

the pregnant woman and step on the um

step on her belly.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. And then um and then our textbook

they said like um South Koreans they

South Korean kids they selling uh gums

around to people.

>> I mean I think that's a luxury.

>> Okay.

>> To compared to North Korean kids. those

Korean kids, they're just stealing it

and then no shower. Like when I think

about that textbook, I was I I think

like, oh my god, that's that's so

brainwashed.

>> Okay. Sometimes I' I've heard before

about the

>> arigang.

What's what's this

>> concept? There's a song I I play like I

don't know how to play piano but I

always play those music because it's a

very traditional South Korea and North

Korean traditional music.

>> Okay. And then um the adang means like

um before I born this song came out

when the war end uh during the I'm not

sure exactly what time of year the song

starts uh came out but um the music

video is like South and North North

Korea is separated and then people go to

North Korea people go to South Korea

it's like Oh, like what can we do? I'm

sad you leave. When can we see together?

It's like it's kind of sad music.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. And and coming back to the the

hate for America,

>> this is only for the kids. So, it's also

in the media, in the newspapers,

>> media, newspaper, everywhere you go.

>> Everything is towards the US.

>> Yes. Towards the US.

>> That's the main enemy. Only the US, not

China, not Japan.

>> Yes.

>> US.

>> US.

>> Okay.

>> But like every all the enemies. Enemies.

But

>> enemies.

>> Enemies. Yeah.

>> Enemies.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. It's all enemies. But um

especially US is a main enemy.

>> But Europe for example is an enemy as

well.

>> Yeah. like um North Korea they keep put

uh bring these topics like oh Europeans

are enemies but um like I watched the

Mr. Mrs. Mister Have you watched the spy

movie?

>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I watched that movie

in North Korea but I thought that was

Russian movie because in uh in North

Korea there's a lot of Russian movie.

Russia is communism.

>> Okay. So we watch a lot of um Russian

movie and Russian people come to North

Korea and they dance and they

performance to giving performance to

North Korean people.

>> So I thought like

um the American movie that I watched it

was Russian because they all look same.

They all look similar to me that time.

>> Okay. So but Mr. and Mrs. that's a

Hollywood movie right? Yeah. Hollywood

American movie.

>> Oh,

>> were you allowed to watch?

>> You don't you don't allow to watch, but

I

>> It's illegal as well.

>> Yeah, that was

>> How did you manage to watch it? If it's

illegal, people do have like a black

market of USBs with movies or something.

>> People have black market and then

they're whispering in your ears when you

go to like crowd uh market. The market

is very crowd with the robbers and uh

with the homeless kids with the just

grown homeless and people selling a lot

of different products. It's so crowded

and you cannot move and then they come

to you and then hey I have like um new

album came out so do you want to watch?

Are you interested like like talk to you

quietly

>> like selling drugs? Yeah. Selling. Oh, I

don't know. Selling drugs.

>> Yeah. But people when they when they

sell drugs, they are sneaky and they say

like, "Hey, do you want some cocaine?"

>> Okay. So, it was the same like like,

"Hey, I have an American movie. You want

to watch it?"

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

>> Okay. And was it very expensive?

>> Um, it wasn't expensive, but if it's

recent movie, then it's expensive. The

price is different. Public drug, same

thing, right?

>> Okay. And would you have access to

movies,

music, news as well

>> or media in general or just music and

movies?

>> Just music and movies.

>> Okay.

>> Yes.

>> And people are very interested in this

>> like very curious like yeah I want to

watch this.

>> Yes. Very very curious because they

heard about it.

>> Okay. Like for example like okay this

new Chinese movie and then came out and

then um that's also illegal because

people love and um it's like sharing

love and stuff like you know it's

everything is illegal.

>> So sharing love with your even with your

partner in North Korea it's illegal.

>> Yes. So for example you have bike and

then you cannot sit

>> um always always there is like sits in

the bike

>> okay

>> and then if I sit like that it's illegal

>> but you can even like hug your partner

in public or kiss her no

>> and walk by

by the hand.

>> Well by hand is fine I think but people

gonna keep looking at you. Okay.

>> People are very like close-minded and

judgy.

>> Judgy. Yes.

>> Okay. Okay. I've also heard sometimes

about the importance of having um a

portrait at home of the family.

>> Yes.

>> Is that true?

>> Yes.

>> You need to have a like a portrait and

it needs to be clean

>> and well hung and everything.

>> Yes.

>> Otherwise Otherwise what the So the

government is checking inside your house

if the portrait is

>> Yeah. Correct. Like correct.

>> And then they check the dust. Dust too.

>> Okay.

>> Like

>> it can be dusty.

>> It can be dusty.

>> It should be super clean

>> here. And like topper like they checking

fingers like that.

>> Wow.

>> And then if if not then they going to

talk to like management. There's um so

10 household 20 household there's a

management in the that place the city.

So for example, Ma Majarin is like big

city and then in the Madrid they have

like small little h um cities right

parts.

>> Yeah. Parts.

>> So there there's counties. So they talk

to counties. This house these these

certain houses they don't clean it well.

Can you can you bother them to clean it?

Well,

>> okay.

>> And these houses they don't upgrade the

photos. Sometimes the photo is upgrading

and sometimes you pay for it. Sometimes

you don't have to pay for it

>> and you need to change it if it upgrade.

>> Yeah, you have to change the newer um uh

portrait.

>> And I've also heard some stories that

for example if your if your house is in

flames is burning down, you need to grab

the picture before leaving the house for

example. So it's very very very

important this portrait.

>> Yes. Very very important.

>> Wow.

>> Very important. and and

>> it is showing uh there's like um

documentary clip on showing on public on

television

the one lady she was protecting the

history historical trees the trees is

all burning burning down so

like when we are when they're fighting

Kim's family they were fight uh in the

war right they're riding a um letter for

the trees. Okay,

>> so those special trees she was trying to

protect and she was like hugging the

tree

>> and then she burned all over her um body

and face and the government sent her to

um foreigner country to fix all her body

and face. That was like interesting

documentary on television

>> and that that hit us like

>> okay the portrait is important. So those

kind of clips

>> that was in television in North Korea.

>> Yeah, that was in the television in

North Korea.

>> Okay.

>> And then is showing that like we never

ride a um airplane. Um she was like top

of the airplane and trying to coming

down and then having an interview. It

was really interesting for us.

>> And what if this portrait is damaged by

accident?

>> Damaged by accident

>> for example,

>> like what kind of accident? If you're

trying to hung it and it falls and

breaks,

>> then like, "Oh, I'm sorry."

>> That's a problem.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay.

>> Yeah. I would like to go deeper into the

punishment side of the North Korean

government cuz there's the um the labor

camps.

>> Labor camps. Yes.

>> There's also public executions.

>> Yes. I

>> Is it real?

>> It's real. I watched public excursion ex

executions

>> with your eyes.

>> With my eyes, with my two eyes, but

unfortunately um my um family.

Okay. So I watched public execution and

then I heard about um sending present

cams and all that stuff to like um small

chats

other from other people.

>> Okay.

>> So small little chats are our news.

So people to people we have like small

little chats and then that's our new

news or daily news.

>> Okay. And then um the execution part

when I was high school and after high

school teacher say like oh we going to

watch the execution

today so everybody must attend. Don't go

home

>> also children.

>> Yes don't go home leave your backpack

here in school classroom we all going to

go to attend execution.

>> Wow. So we left our backpack there. We

heading out to riding a bike,

everything. And then we heading out to

the execution um place. It's a river.

And then um and these two people

executed. So the governor they writing

they reading all the paper like writing

a letter to people like okay these

people um doesn't follow our rules they

selling uh drugs they selling uh sex

film they selling uh um

illegal movies to people so these people

going to execute it

>> and how Did they execute them?

>> So, four soldiers, they're coming out

and then the long gun like shoot like

that and then shooting. It was like um

getting winter time. So, cold fall like

cold fall season and it was getting cold

and you can when you breathe out you can

see the steams. So like they're shooting

shooting people shooting two people.

They put a like blindfold and then they

put a um what's that called? Rocks in

their mouth.

>> Okay.

>> And then they're stand up like that.

Like their their hand is back and then

they're stand up with this like um

>> in a pole.

>> Yeah. In a like just just wood pole

pole. And then um they're stand up like

that and then two people are stand up

like that and and four soldiers come out

and they're shooting shooting four times

and then and then two like so eight

shoots.

So they they shooting two times. They

come out one time and then they come out

second time. They shooting like two

times each. And then I heard my friends

are whispering. I heard like those

people are if they don't they don't die

by um shooting they can survive and they

government they're throwing away to some

somewhere if they survive the let the

government leave uh they let government

they let them to leave life because they

survive from the death so that's what um

friends um whispering to each other and

then that was winter um close to winter

time the blood was coming out and then

the steam was like like you know the

blood and skin is like coming out too

and that was my first time

like oh I don't want to watch and like

kind of interested but I I don't want to

watch I was like hall 10 like that and

then like families at the front they

were crying and they were like yelling

and um it was really sad to watch. So

you watch the steam coming out of the

hot blood.

>> Yes. Steam. And then um the meat, the

skin came out together.

>> And it was like to teach a lesson to

everybody else.

>> Yeah. And then we have to write one or

two sentences with the Kim Kim's family

diagram. We we always always have to put

the um Kim's family diag

how I say this

>> okay

>> the the words

>> okay

>> like um we have to use his words to like

okay Kim's family say like this but we

didn't do it well I never going to watch

the any of these movies and um we'll be

good kids like that and then teachers

collecting those letters from kids

>> okay so The the the hardest punishment

is the public execution.

>> Yes.

>> When do you get this punishment? When

you sell drugs, for example, or illegal

movies, sex films?

>> Sex films.

>> What else can take you to a public

execution?

What other crimes?

>> Um,

>> killing somebody, stealing,

>> killing somebody. But killing somebody,

I think

um maybe it's a normal thing for in

North Korea to killing somebody. I never

they're very uh smuggling when they kill

people.

>> Okay.

>> So they never get cut.

>> Okay.

>> So normally I hear this like people get

cut from like watching a um movies. For

example, my best friend um I heard from

this my Chinese friend. He he came out

he come to China quite often sometimes

and I contact with him we chat.

>> Okay.

>> Like which is Chinese people use WeChat.

So I talked to him, we chat and then he

said like my best friend's boyfriend get

uh go to jail for 10 years and I told

him why and he said um he he watched he

watched a South Korean drama

>> that was not allowed by the

>> it's not allowed

>> only for so 10 years of prison for

watching a movie.

>> Yes. I think he did other things too

because um his house he his family

selling pigs. His family killed a pig

and then chopping all the part and then

selling to market. They go to market and

they selling a pigs. So his family were

rich and then I think he also doing

drugs too.

>> Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> Wow. That's crazy.

>> So that's common things in

>> Okay. So then it's public execution is

the worst of the punishments. Then

what's the next level? Um, labor camps.

>> Labor camps.

>> Prison labor camps.

>> What's worse?

>> Um,

>> it's the same.

>> So for me is I only watch basic things

like that. But I heard about like worst

thing is like going to prison camp. So

they sent you like coil. Do you know

coil?

>> Yep.

>> Yeah. They sended coil

>> mining.

>> Yeah. Okay. Like getting coil. It's

really coil is really famous in North

Korea. They digging to coil. They

sending people there and digging coil

whole their life.

>> All their life.

>> Whole their life.

>> That's forever.

>> Forever. And I heard about some people

escape from there.

>> Wow.

>> Wow. Wow.

>> And then sometimes they sended this this

like for example

people who live in Pyongyang, they're

very high class.

>> Okay. High class means um very governor

and also like the background is all um

like all related to government.

>> Okay. So you cannot leave whatever you

want. You cannot move to Pyongyang.

>> You cannot leave uh Pyongyang because

your Sunbun is your background is bad.

>> Okay.

>> Not good.

>> Okay. So this for example Pongyang if if

you're in trouble they sent you

countryside mountain

they can never go back to

um they can never go back to Pyongyang

>> okay there's something called in inbanim

yes

>> in miniman that's the surveillance done

by the people right

>> inimban is panzang panzang means means

is like the leader.

>> Okay.

>> So, as I tell you like there's like 10

household.

>> Okay.

>> She

um she locking the like 20 or 10

household and then hey we're going to

have meetings in this today this house.

So everybody join

and then she talk about like okay um

this is the new news we have to change

the portrait

everybody must change the portrait until

this dates.

>> So this is people from the government or

they are just neighbors

>> they're just neighbors.

>> Okay. But that they have like a little

special position there.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. To control the rest of the people.

So every everybody's controlled every 20

households

>> they have one person to control

>> control. Yeah.

>> Okay. And why is this person

>> selected?

>> Selected

uh this person

>> loyalty to the government.

>> Yeah. Roy loyalty to government. They

have extra uh time and they want to be

um they want to have specialty for

themselves.

uh for example like um if there are

something smuggling

like um they're leaders so leaders get

some little bit of benefits always I

think that's why they become selected

and a lot of people oh I'm too busy I

don't want to be do that

>> okay so they have a special position

towards the the government

>> like what kind of benefits

>> um

>> for example maybe more food more freedom

>> um maybe a little bit more freedom and

also they're collecting monies from

people.

>> Okay.

>> So maybe they can just using it.

>> But and and this is the only person that

is controlling the rest of our our

neighbors encouraged to report other

neighbors.

>> Yes.

>> As well.

>> Mhm.

>> And you get any any benefits if you

report a different neighbor. For

example, if your neighbor knows you're

watching movies at night,

>> um, he'll probably or she'll probably

report you.

>> Yes.

>> So, there's no no loyalty between

neighbors.

>> No, we don't talk to neighbors. We don't

talk to neighbors that I'm going to

escape from North Korea.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. So if if I say like I'm I'm going

to escape from North Korea, the neighbor

is gonna um

>> report

>> talk to um in North Korea system is like

we don't have much ideas and we don't

have much information. We only talk and

whisper. So uh we always

talk to people

if you're connected. So for example um

if you share your um

secret to one person that's not secret.

>> Okay. So you back in back back when you

were living in North Korea did you trust

many people?

>> Um I was kid so I don't trust nobody but

in families um we don't trust nobody. If

we escape from North Korea, we keep a

secret in our our hospital.

>> Not even you. You didn't even trust your

family.

>> Yes.

>> Only your family.

>> We don't talk to We don't talk details

because uh if they know about details,

they can be dangerous.

>> So it was only you and your mom.

>> Yes.

>> Who knew?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. So in the talking about the

civilians, there is the police but also

the neighbors. So you have to be very

very very careful.

>> Yes. Very very careful. So they're

always like watching you the um the

neighbor leader and then police it's

always connected they're always like

connecting informations like for example

if someone uh for example you come to my

house today and I have to write down you

go to leaders leader's house she have

the special book um what day it's like

it's kind of like hotel what day you

coming in my house what day you leave we

record every single detail what time you

come

>> even to go to your friend's house.

>> Uh friend's house. Um no.

>> Okay.

>> But like someone from Spain especially,

they were targeting you.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Wow. Wow. And

did you ever witness somebody from from

your environment being reported?

somebody um

>> like from another neighbor telling the

leader that this person is doing so and

so.

>> Mhm. I think those things are doing it

quite often.

>> Okay.

>> But very secret way.

>> Okay. So it's very normal.

>> Yeah. It's very normal. Normal thing.

>> Well, and in terms of of social life

with your friends, I I bet this your

circle was very small, right?

>> Mhm.

>> Yeah. Like if you don't talk to the

neighbors and the society is not very

open, you have like just a few friends

and your family and that's basically it,

right?

>> Mhm.

>> Of course, no social media.

>> No social media, no Facebook, no

Instagram, YouTube or any internet. I

heard these days uh they have their own

internets and searching about like Kim's

family histories you can reach too

easily. But other than that it's um

everything is blocked

>> okay

>> from outside of country.

>> I've also heard before about selfc

criticism sessions. This does this exist

in North Korea

>> like explain more.

>> Yeah. Just like a session where you have

to admit your mistakes and self critic

like criticize yourself basically.

>> Yes. Yes. Any in North Korea you have to

join the any groups.

>> Okay. Otherwise you'll be in trouble.

>> What What is this?

>> So you have to join the groups. For

example, for me, I was joining a school

groups, right? Okay. So school groups um

like

it's like if I use the bad words in a

school like I calling like you know B

words and F words in school and then the

um we have like different lines like hey

you and then we have to stand up like I

have to stand up like someone someone

told me like hey Evelyn You are cursing.

We supposed to not curse. So government

told us to not curse. Unlike Kim's

family, we don't didn't teach us like

this way. But you curse in classroom.

That's really bad.

>> So this would be another student.

>> This will be another student and tell

you about it like front of like

>> um 30 kids and I stand up. She go to

front of the um like school uh what's it

called? teacher desk. So she go to

teacher desk and talk to you and then

she say okay I'm not bad I'm I'm not

good kids either because I don't follow

this these things I don't clean it well

and then she say I'm sorry I never going

to do it again and then I come out and

then you

you're why you are like this and you

know

>> and do adults do the same thing

>> adults I think they are doing different

way but kind of similar but adults it's

like more deeply.

>> Okay. Okay. So in basically in North

Korea you had this sense of being

watched the whole time, right?

>> Yeah. Whole

>> or it's very discreet and you don't feel

it.

>> You feel you're being watched the whole

time.

>> Yes.

>> Or you don't you don't realize it

actually.

>> Um

>> you have this pressure on you all the

time.

>> Like I'm I'm being observed. I'm being

watched.

>> Yeah. I'm being watched anyway.

>> I need to be careful. I need to care for

all the time. I have to be low all the

time.

>> Schools

>> and then um walking in the road like in

the walking in the road in police stop

you.

>> Okay.

>> Because you don't wear certain like

style for example like I wear like this.

This is a too bright for North Korea.

>> Okay. And then I have like hair color

and then um

>> yeah I I want to speak about the the

fashion later

>> vision but in terms of communication

between people I I bet you can send

letters for example right

>> h can you write letters and send them to

another p person

>> um

>> or any sort of communication if you move

to another for example imagine

>> yes you can you can do that too Okay.

>> But if people are um these days people

have like cell phone the cell phone that

time cost like Pyongyang cell phone and

then um North Korean make their own cell

phones right. So they have like

Pyongyang logo like when you turn on the

flip phone. I have two phones touch one

is touch phone. It's Pyongyang and then

also flip phones. So when you turn on is

a pingang like screen on it and then um

if people don't have those things you

have to write a letter to go to poster

office and put the poster sticker and

then send it to them.

>> Okay.

>> Send it to whoever in countryside leave

>> and they would they would read it

probably right

>> sometimes. Sometimes they get lost.

>> Okay.

>> So it's very like old style. It's very

slow. It it can be takes like two weeks

to one month or two months never going

to happen sometimes and also um these

days people have cell phones. So that

time cell phone bill was really

expensive in North Korea.

>> Okay. I would love to speak a little bit

about Pyongjang. Pyang.

>> Yeah. Cuz some sometimes like people

foreign people from the US, from Europe,

YouTubers for example, they they travel

there, they go to Pyongjang

>> and it feels like a fake city.

>> Fake city

>> kind of. Yeah.

>> Yeah. Like like something stage like

>> it is too like

>> actors in the street.

Is it like this or but also people live

normally a normal life in Pyongjang and

they have you were saying they have some

privileges right?

>> Yes. In what kind of privilege?

>> So my mom was in jail for four years?

>> In North Korea.

>> Wow.

>> And then

>> why?

>> Why? because she doing so much like

smugglings so much like trades

>> business

>> businesses. So as I say North Korea

every single move everything what you do

is illegal.

>> Okay.

>> So when she do um these things um she

she go to jail for four years and

they're keep like asking her and um they

hit my mom so bad. And then uh when my

mom my grandma was um live, my grandma

took me to Pyongyang and I before when I

was when my mom was um doing very well

their um businesses. I went to Pyongyang

for fun. But that time I went to

Pyongyang for for my mom with my

grandma. And then my grandma writing a

letter for Kim's family that like my

daughter doesn't have like any badness.

Please let her go. let her free. So she

writing a letter and then we were

staying this um Pyongyang family and

then the family also watch the like

illegal movies.

So

um and they do have like pro privileges

because um they are um serving a

government.

>> Okay. So they getting like extra um

acceptance like extra food and then they

they have like five internet five in

know in my um where I live we have like

one channel and they have like six seven

channels.

>> Okay.

>> More than one channels

>> in Pyongyang

>> in Pongyang. in Pyongyang in general and

then the electricity is like

>> not 24 hours but like three or five

hours out.

>> Okay.

>> And then many many times on all the time

>> because in North Korea it's not normal

to have electricity.

>> No.

>> All the time.

>> Not all the time.

>> Okay.

>> So where where I live

>> average?

>> Yeah. Like where I live it was like 3

hours you get the electricity

>> in the three three or five hours. In

that time you have to charging

everything battery or whatever you have

you have to charge in that time.

>> Okay.

>> You have to move fast.

>> Okay.

>> And we're so happy to have like

electricity. We're jumping.

>> Wow.

>> Because it's so like

>> But you have electricity daily. Every

day

>> almost.

>> Um everyday life is like 3 to 5 hours

only.

>> 3 to 5 hours. Okay.

>> And then in Pyongyang they have more

hours. They um only like 3 to 5 hours

out. rest of hours is running. That's

the only Pyongyang city is like uh

electricity is always running.

>> Okay. And the the foreign tourist that

go to North Korea, they they cannot

travel freely, right?

>> I think so. Yeah,

>> they can or they cannot.

>> Um I saw some Russians in our food uh

market.

>> Okay. But everybody looking at one

Roshian they have like blue eye

different eye color and then everybody

looking at them and then um mostly I

think foreigners staying in Pyongyang.

When I was in Pyongyang there's a lots

of foreigners.

>> Okay. Just visiting

>> just visiting

>> or living there and doing business or

something.

>> Um I think mostly in Russians a lot

>> Russians

>> Russians and then other people I'm not

sure where they come from.

>> Okay. Yeah.

>> And do people in North Korea hate

Americans?

>> People hate Yes, we do. But we I think

North Koreans, their eyes are very

closet, so we can't really tell who's

Russian, who's American. They look

similar.

>> Sure. Sure.

>> But for me, I can I can I can um

definitely decide.

>> Okay.

>> Because um I think I've been worldwide.

>> Yeah. you changed your perspective by

>> I think I've been changed a lot.

>> Okay. Okay. Yeah. I I would love to to

speak about that later about the the the

after you escaped North Korea,

>> how the how life changed for you. But

but let let me ask you some more

questions before moving into your story

escaping North Korea. Right. So I've

heard that the penalties in North Korea

>> you can keep them for three generations.

This is correct.

>> Yes.

>> You can pay for a crime that your

grandfather

did for example.

>> Mhm. Yes.

>> How does it work?

>> Um

we it it never happened to our family.

>> Okay. But I think especially

it's like higher position people they

face that a lot because they pro uh

probability to government a lot right

like government providing them like

apartment and then government providing

them food and they're trusting trusting

them a lot but like something they don't

do it well they punishing it really hard

>> okay

>> because They're important people, right?

That's why they're in government.

>> Okay.

>> So, but people like normal like us um

we we are just stay low.

>> What do you mean stay low? So, it

doesn't apply to you.

>> Yeah.

>> If if you

>> It does apply to us if we doing

extremely um crazy stuff. For example,

um for me, I go to North Korea and I

told them, "Hey, I am from North Korea.

you guys shouldn't leave like this and

then I affect lot of people like that.

I'm sure like people in North Korea u

maybe government they can see my they

can see this but North Korean general

people in general they cannot see me.

>> Sure.

>> Yeah.

>> Would you like to be seen by all of them

>> be

>> seen by all of them? Would you like them

to watch this? Um I know I know they

cannot watch but I I do want them to see

>> okay

>> I do want them to see how I'm doing well

and yeah I think they were like she's

definitely not North Korean. I think

they will think that way because I

changed too much.

>> Okay. What would you look like if you

were North Korean or

>> I think I will look like very

countryside girl.

>> Okay.

>> Very um nothing in my brain. It's just

um following a government lot of test is

very like

um limited source

and

um my my appearance not going to be um

bright

>> because

>> but for example if you did that and and

come back to North Korea and try to

convince people not to live that way

>> would you be applied um like this

punishment the the generational

punishment and your and your kids would

have to go to jail or something and the

kids of your kids of your kids as well.

>> Yeah, I think that case it's like um

North Korean government is extremely

angry at you.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> What happens?

>> Yeah, it it happens.

>> So in North Korea you can be born and

already punished

>> because of your of what your grandfather

did.

>> Yes.

>> That's crazy.

>> Yeah. North Korean I think a lot of

people are escaped already and then um

like prison camp and execution to halt

your family that means North Korean

government is targeting you. They are

very extremely extremely angry at you.

>> So they can execute all your family if

you commit a crime.

>> Yes. They can just bomb you whole like

just listing out your family and they

can just bomb you. I heard about that.

>> Really?

>> Yeah. In North Korea, I heard about

that.

>> What cases have you heard?

>> Um, these cases is a singing singer

group. Um, like Kim's Kim Jong-un's wife

generation. They were singing. They're

like watching a sex film and they talk

bad about government. It I heard about

this is a Pyongyang happening. And then

um they it this is like musical group.

They were in like in

So beside of like musical group is so

fake because they always singing about

like North Korean and like Kim's family

and like all this stuff right and then

behind the scene they were like um in a

small group and talk about like talk bad

about Kim's Kim's like especially those

singing groups are um high position

because they're performing like um

government

>> like oh how good we are government is

and they have pretty face and they're

talented and um they're trained to be

like melt people's heart and then um

government will know about them you know

because they're like performance and

singers and they're very famous in North

Korea and then they're um behind they

talk they talk about talk bad about um

North Korean government and then they

watch like uh sexual video or they do

drugs like government feel betrayed.

>> Wow.

>> And then I heard like they listed out

them and then they just bombing them.

>> That's what I heard about it from other

people.

>> And after releasing this podcast, if you

and I went to North Korea.

>> Yeah.

>> What would happen to us?

>> I think you never can go back go to

North Korea because you met me.

>> Sorry. What would happen if we if we

went

>> Oh, you and I went in North Korea.

>> First of all, I don't think so. I want

to go to North Korea.

If we happen to go, then I'll be really

scared. I think I'll be I'll go to jail.

And also, um those Korean Yeah, they

will they could like

>> I don't think so. They're going to kill

us, but they're going to watching you

every step what you do. And if you do

something wrong and they're going to put

you jail right away.

>> Wow.

>> And maybe they're going to drug you or

they going to put toxins in your food. I

don't know what's going to happen, but

they're going to do that. It's a scary

thing.

>> So if a YouTuber, for example, goes to

Pyongyang

and records is recording some videos or

whatever, and if he or she doesn't

follow the rules, Yes.

>> something really bad can happen to him

or her.

>> Yes.

>> Right.

definitely go to prison for many many

years. I don't know many months, many

years.

>> It depends on your life.

>> There are some cases, right?

>> There are some cases.

>> I think there he died. It's nearby

Washington DC. They leave. His name is

Auto something.

>> Okay. An American YouTuber.

>> Yeah. American American guy.

>> Okay.

>> He pulled down the government post.

>> Okay.

>> So that's really illegal.

>> Okay. I mean you never why you do that

you know you shouldn't you shouldn't do

that if you go to some other country you

follow the the rule I think it's really

bad idea to

>> like even you go it's a common sense I

think

>> I don't know why I don't I don't follow

exactly what he did but it's not it's

very unnecessary action to

>> sure it's not very smart

>> and are you afraid of the North Korean

government

by being exposed and telling

Yes, but I'm I'm sure I'm not that

important. I don't want to be important

and I'm sure like I was kid and I'm

sharing my life stories, what I see,

what I hear in North Korea and what I

experience in North Korea.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. I wasn't in like Pyongyang like

officer daughter or like I was just um

normal kid. Yeah. Luckily.

>> Okay. Okay. I would love to speak a

little bit about the laws in North

Korea. Were there any sort of concept

around the individual legal rights like

human rights?

>> There's no human rights.

>> It doesn't exist.

>> There's no Yeah, there's no human

rights. What's human right? I when I was

living in North Korea, I don't even know

what human rights is.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> So, people don't have any any concept at

all. any like any ideas any speaks like

speaks about like government

>> okay

>> I think um as I talked to you about the

um the singing group they they're the

one who all only like close to Kim Kim

Jong-un

>> because

>> like it's a fun right for it's like

>> um idols

>> okay

>> you know in South Korea there's like a

lot of K-pop idols and stuff very famous

and South North Korea also have like

famous groups, singing groups.

>> So they only close to u they're very

talented and unique and attractive. So

they only close to Kim Kim Jong and

Kimir is all those uh important people.

I think they are the one who's close and

they're talk bad about them I think

because they know who they are. And then

for other people we are just um watching

it on the TV and hearing it from like

brainwashed like schools and then um TV

shows and documentaries only like uh

brainwash clips to coming to us. That's

why we we are scared and more afraid and

we don't have we have like limited

information about them. I think more

more information you have and more ideas

you get I think.

>> Okay. And is there any law enforcement

around your dress code or hairstyle in

North Korea? Can people do their hair as

they want dress?

>> You cannot have bangs. I used to have

bangs, but these days I don't like

bangs. So,

>> okay.

>> Anyway, people cannot have bangs and

guys and girls cannot have bangs. And

everything have to be short.

>> Short

>> have to show your face. Okay. And can

can you have long hair as you do for

example?

>> You can have long hair if you're not in

school.

>> Okay.

>> But mostly when you're in school and

groups, you cannot have uh long hair.

But people who go to like companies,

government companies, they can have long

hair, but it have to be black.

>> And you cannot dye your hair.

>> You cannot uh dye your hair different

color. You cannot have like red

pedicure, manicure, only clear ones.

Okay.

>> You going to um the um the police going

to stop you if you have red um polish on

your nails.

>> Can you use makeup in North Korea?

>> Yeah, you can use a makeup.

>> Okay.

>> But you don't want to

>> with no limitations.

>> Um no, you can use a makeup but it's

very limited.

>> Okay.

>> If you too bright to showing it, then uh

definitely somebody going to stop you.

>> Okay. And like they're gonna let you uh

stay in the middle of the road for like

many hours.

>> And are in terms of dress code, are you

allowed to wear certain colors to show

your shoulders? For example,

>> no, it's only like uh neutral colors.

>> Okay. And you have to be covered up.

>> Yeah, you have to cover up everything.

And then um you cannot show

no short skirts. So only

>> there's like in school even some girls

they want to make it like more prettier

so they make it like more shorter but

there's like limited

>> can you wear jeans?

>> You can wear um like dark jeans. You

cannot wear bright jeans.

>> Why?

>> Well because that's dress code in North

Korea.

>> It's just like that.

>> It's just like that. It's uh if you wear

it too bright and they're going to too

not if you're too noticeable, they're

going to stop you where you go. Even

you're um busy, they stop you like why

you dress up like that. You don't know

which which uh groups you related to,

which company you go to.

>> Like all these things they ask.

>> You've been outside of North Korea for

for many years now. Now looking back,

what's the most the most bizarre uh

thing in terms of regulation that you

that that you remember?

>> Um

>> in terms of law enforcement? Yeah. Like

when you look back?

>> Mhm. What's the worst thing?

>> The the the worst or the most crazy

rules that you remember in North Korea?

>> I mean like whole things like whole

thing I describe.

>> Okay. That's I think that's craziest

thing.

>> Now you see it as some something crazy,

right?

>> Yes.

>> When you were living there, it was just

normal for you.

>> Yeah, it was it was normal for me.

>> Okay.

>> I thought I have to leave my life like

that way.

>> Okay.

>> But still a lot of people in people who

live in North Korea, they still follow

this.

>> Okay.

>> Where where I was.

>> But when I come out, those are worst

things I ever experienced.

>> Okay. like no freedom and then very

limited sources.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> And in I I've heard before that in North

Korea the language is very different

that for example you don't have a word

to say I but you have a word to say we

>> we. Yes.

>> So so you don't have you don't even have

a word to

>> no

>> for yourself.

>> No it's just a community.

Um, we have those dialogues like we're

the only um we're the one,

>> one is we.

>> All of us.

>> Yeah. One is we, we're the one.

>> Wow.

>> It's like all together.

>> It's powerful.

>> Yeah. Very powerful powerful um

communism system.

>> Sure. And in terms of language, did you

find any

any difference in terms of different

words like words maybe words to describe

feelings like words uh to say stress for

example to say

>> yeah when I was in North Korea I didn't

I didn't have allergy I don't know what

was allergist

>> allergies

>> yeah people quiet ass quite quite a lot

asked like do you have allergies and I

didn't know what allergies

>> okay

>> and then um so

>> but you you had the same words to

describe feelings

>> feelings no

>> no no words

>> like we don't we don't describe our

feelings that often

>> okay

>> yeah we never describe our feelings

>> but what what words are you lacking in

North Korea that you don't have

>> we don't have we don't have words

>> any around the feelings things

>> just um I missed you.

>> Okay.

>> I missed you a lot.

>> But to say fear, stress,

um anger, all of these words, you you

you have them, right? In North Korea,

>> we always have like heavy uh pressure

from government.

>> Okay. So we are hiding from government a

lot for feelings and all like all our

our actions and what we do and um we

cannot express and we cannot show so

we're putting down on the side a lot so

we don't really share those things

>> but must be difficult right to

>> well because we don't know what it is we

don't know how to share we don't know

like oh I'm stressed. Oh. Oh, we angry.

>> Yeah. But if you don't have a word to

say it, it's very difficult to express

how you feel.

>> So, we're very passed down a lot. So,

when we are fighting from neighbors,

we're angry extremely yelling at each

other and like punching each other. Just

all the anger is coming out. But mostly

uh if you don't have big fights um you

just don't share those things.

>> Okay.

>> Daily life.

>> Okay. I would like to to to speak about

social life like having fun also. What

kind of music could you listen? What

kind of social plans could you do?

Because you said before that clubbing is

is forbidden in North Korea. Yeah. But

how do people socialize and have a

little bit of fun?

um North Korean people uh if it's um

like holidays.

>> Yes.

>> The all the neighbors coming out and

then someone bring this speaker and then

they uh bring like the Magnolia flower

CD that approved from government. They

put it in the CD player and then we

dance with the music.

>> Okay. And then all the neighbors coming

out and then if there's no police we put

a illegal songs like Chinese music or

American uh disco music. Okay.

>> And then uh someone who say like oh the

police is coming by nearby and then we

take that city out and they put a like

legal cities.

>> Okay. But for example in in North Korea

how do you meet a partner

>> partner?

>> How how's the date in a scene?

So, for me, I met my ex-boyfriend

um my friend's house. He was playing a a

card game with his friends and then uh

his friend's sister is my friend and

then we were in like gathering all the

time like their mom and dad is always

gone because they want to earn money

from other sources. So, they're all

they're always not home. So we're

gathering that house, that place all the

time. So like 10 or 20 kids there, go

there and then we just chat and just eat

whatever food we want and we play card

games and we um we turn the music, we

dance and um that's how we he and I met

and then later on he have to go to uh

military for 10 years.

>> Wow. And for me, um, it's not fun for me

there anymore because I did it all the

time. So, I was, um, just joking him

around like he was in the, um, border

border guard. So, I told him like, make

fun of him. Uh, if I want to escape from

China, can you let me go? And he's like,

no, you can't. I want to marry you. Why?

Why I'm going to go? Why I'm going to

let you go? Like, I want to be with you.

like he trying to like be with me like

like like

this.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. And then I just left with my mom.

>> Okay. And and how is the the sex culture

for example? Like do people have sex um

only with the their partner they want to

marry before marriage, after marriage?

Do people have kids very early? They

wait. They have many. How does it work

in general?

>> Yeah, in general um people

people marry quickly.

>> Okay.

>> Because they're very innocent. If you

lot of I think these days people don't

marry that of quickly especially outside

of US outside of North Korea. I noticed

like even me I'm scared to get married

but if I'm in North Korea I think I'll

just married.

>> Okay. That's like that's what society

is. Like the vibe of society is. So I

think that's what I'm gonna do. And

um

>> like when do people have children?

>> Children. Yeah. Like uh 20s, early 20s.

They have children early 20s. And then

>> many children?

>> Uh one or two.

>> One or two?

>> Yeah. These days one, but before um my

mom's um

generation they make three, four. Okay.

And is it normal to date different

people, hang out, have sex even or not?

>> Um

>> only with the person you marry?

>> I think like you know holding a hand is

kind of awkward way to showing outside

of um society. So sex topics we don't

really talk about it because it's very

>> um embarrassed and shy.

>> Okay.

>> Super shy thing. um because it's a very

communism and um not lot of sources from

outside of countries. So it's very um

like embarrassed thing. So uh I think

I'm sure people have sex but they don't

talk about it.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah.

>> So it's something normal but they don't

talk about it.

>> Yes. Something normal. Um usually uh

adults they're trying to get money from

outside of source. So during the daytime

um kids probably have sex.

>> Okay. Okay. And when you socialize, can

you drink alcohol?

>> Smoking.

>> For me personally, I don't drink in

alcohol or smokes, but

>> normally guys Yeah, normally guys smoke

a lot. Okay.

>> And I been I had a crazy fight with my

ex-boyfriend that he smoke a lot.

>> Okay. And I was just throwing his like

the smoking cigarette like to a wall and

then like go crazy like you shouldn't

smoke like this this much. You're like

um animal

>> and alcohol is it's allowed in North

Korea.

>> Yes. A lot of like governor people they

get stressed and then they they like

drink a lot of alcohol so their nose

become like strawberry. We make fun of

them like, "Oh, you have straw

strawberry nose and cheeks and

>> you probably alcoholic and like we make

fun of them."

>> But normal people like poor people drink

as well.

>> Yeah, poor people drink as well, but

it's expensive.

>> What do they drink?

>> They drink maki. Maki is like special

North Korean dialogue.

>> Okay.

>> So, it's um made it from

um what's that called?

rice. Okay.

>> Wheat. Wheat.

>> Okay.

>> Made it from wheat. And then um they

make it at home and they're selling it.

>> Okay. Yeah.

>> And is there some sort of prostitution

in North Korea?

>> Um

yeah. Quietly.

>> Quietly.

>> Yeah. Quietly. And then I heard about

like um girls nearby uh train station.

The governor people they bring their car

and take the woman and then um they just

sleep with them and then next morning

they drop drop them there the place.

>> Okay. And that's their job.

>> Yeah. That's their job.

>> These girls.

>> Yeah. These girls. Regarding the

internet, there's um you have internet

in North Korea, but only uh certain

websites that are

allowed by the government or how does it

work? The internet

>> internet

um that time um that time every message

or every phone call minute charging you.

But these days I don't know how it

works. I think these days maybe more

flexible. I heard there are they have

like so many different types of internet

in North Korea.

>> Okay.

>> They can exit access exist access to

different informations.

So especially the the area they can um

search and they can get the information

for example like um history historical

um things they search about it and then

they collect the information.

>> Okay. And then when I was there, these

things didn't exist the searching

option.

>> So there there was no internet at all.

>> No.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. And are people aware

of the global internet? So if you ask in

the streets of North North Korea about

YouTube, about Facebook, do people know

it exists?

>> No. I didn't even know what's um what's

like Instagram, Facebook or um YouTube.

I didn't know nothing.

>> Wow. I I we'll we'll get later to your

when when you escaped North Korea and

arrived to the rest of the world and but

must have been something really shocking

for you, right?

>> Yes, very shocking. you see like a whole

different world and

>> Mhm.

>> Yeah. We'll we'll we'll get there. We'll

get there. Now, um so in terms of

religion, there's no rel religion at

all, but the family, the beliefs around

the the family, right?

>> Yes.

>> So, no any sort of

uh temples or churches or anything? I

did I did went the temples but I didn't

know it was like religious temple thing.

I thought it's just like movie movie

settings.

>> Okay.

>> Yes.

>> Okay. But there's no there's nothing

like holy, right?

>> No, nothing holy.

>> Nothing holy. Okay. I would like to go

now to to the part of your your story

when you escape North Korea. How old

were you?

I was uh se uh I was 15.

>> 15.

>> Mhm.

>> And you were planning this for a long

time or

>> no? After my mom it um after my mom got

out of from jail, she cannot longer to

live in North Korea because it's so

limited.

>> Okay.

>> And then for me, I'm about graduate high

school as well. And I watch a lot of

Chinese movies and um lot of different

um informations from in North Korea. I I

was dying to go to different um country.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Yeah. Be before moving

to the scape, I want I want to know a

little bit more about the the economic

side and the business side because all

the companies are owned by the

government in North Korea.

>> Yes.

the big companies.

>> So you cannot you cannot be the owner of

of um a production facility for example.

>> You can be owner of it but government

going to always watching on you and

checking on you

>> but you can own a big company.

>> You can own a big company

>> like a big factory for example

>> factories

I think big factories must be like North

Korean

>> government

>> government runs.

>> Okay. So all the big companies are run

>> run by government.

>> Run by by the government.

>> Yes.

>> And then people could have little small

businesses probably, right?

>> Yes.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. And you worked for one

of these companies you said, right?

>> Me?

>> Yeah. You used

>> I was 15.

>> I know you work at the beginning. I I

thought you said that you worked for a

company in North Korea or something.

>> No, these things were um things that I

heard from North Korea and people. Um

>> Okay. Yeah, that's what what I get from

information from people.

>> Okay. So, every everything is stayed.

Okay. So, going back to the to the

escape, your mom um comes out of jail

and she has the she had the plan

already. She told you like we need to

escape.

>> She say like I'm very lonely to go by

myself. So, I want to go to I wanted

someone to come with me and I say I want

to go with you.

>> Okay. And did you tell tell anybody else

in the family or neighbors and nothing

just you?

>> Nothing. And then my mom say like if we

cut by government just uh blame on me

and you don't know nothing.

>> Okay. Okay. And where were you living?

It was near uh cuz you you had to cross

a a frozen river, right? Was it near or

did you have to travel a lot? I have to

travel for like um I have to take the

train for many hours.

>> Okay.

>> Probably 5 to 7 hours um by train

>> and the train sometimes stopped.

>> Okay.

>> So the electricity situation in North

Korea is really bad. So even the um

train stopped sometimes maybe like many

hours the train stops.

>> But were you allowed to take that train

or that was illegal?

>> Yes. Uh you can take a train, you have

to go to police station that where are

you going and what reason and then um if

you arrive the place uh the the certain

place you have to go to the iman

>> what is this

>> um

>> another kind of office as well

>> it's like the h like 10 househ hall

>> okay

>> that as I explained you go to her house

>> write down what time you arrived at city

okay

>> and then what time you're going to

leave.

>> Okay. So, you take the train and once

you arrive, you don't go to that place,

but you go straight to the river or how

was it? Just tell us.

>> So, you go to um nearby China,

>> okay,

>> border. And then it's um usually it's

really dangerous. It's really easy to

get caught. But my mom somehow she made

it and then I had a special document

that I'm going there and I get approval

from government. So it in when you're in

the train the train sit train station

the um the train management um

government they checking your ticket and

then the approvement from your city.

Okay.

>> So you have to get certain documents.

They checking certain documents. If you

don't have those certain documents, they

kicking out the trend whenever they need

to be.

>> But these documents are to move inside

North Korea or to go to China.

>> Go to somewhere go to in South uh North

Korea. Inside of North Korea.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. So I get those

documents and I arrived

um and then arriving at night and next

morning we go to the um the leader

office like 10 house and tw 20 house

like controlling you know leader we go

to her house we signed the date and time

because we were visitor

>> okay

>> and then uh we're staying there for um 7

days. Where did you stay?

>> We're staying in nearby China called um

>> but in a hotel in

>> a house

>> in a house.

>> House different house

>> of somebody you knew?

>> Somebody somebody's house.

>> Okay.

>> Somebody it's like um military high

possession family house

>> and you knew them

>> staying there. My mom knew them.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

>> My mom knew them. And then the high

position people have like militaries,

right? And then one of the military

helping us because the higher position

people helping us he can be in danger

and he can he can you know get a fire

but he he um he used the soldier.

>> Okay.

>> Whoever want it.

>> Okay.

>> So the soldier helping us. So the

soldier tell us the timing to what

timing we can escape. the timing that is

dangerous. We cannot escape. We're

always like waiting.

>> Okay.

>> On hold. Yeah.

>> And how was the rest from there?

>> Risk.

>> No. How how was the rest? So you were

staying there for 7 days?

>> Yeah. 7 days.

>> And then what?

>> Seven days. And he keep coming back and

forth.

>> Okay.

>> And then updating us. Uh right now we're

doing like this in the um the situation

in the border. We're taking a turns.

So when it's timing like it's my uh when

when it's my timing then you guys can

come on that time.

>> Okay. And then uh we waited and then

when he changed the time in the midnight

and then we go to his um time zone and

then he take us to nearby China border.

>> Okay. So he was uh his uh duty was to

control the border.

>> Yeah. It's like every um every like kil

kilometers.

>> Okay.

>> Different soldier.

>> Okay. Okay. So you were talking that you

have a friend who was a soldier and was

helping you escape and he was he was one

of the the soldiers controlling the

border, right?

>> So it was easy to cross the border with

him.

>> Yes, it was easy to cross border with

him.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah, it's fine. And my mom know about

the the soldier and higher position

level of um

soldier.

>> Okay.

>> Another like leader.

>> Okay.

>> Leader of the soldier. And then he

introduced this younger soldier. And

then the younger soldier helping my

mom's out because he was the actual

border of guard.

>> Okay. Were you paying him?

>> My mom paying him like $300 US.

>> Okay. That's a lot. North Korea.

>> Yes. Okay.

>> You can leave like 3 months of it.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay.

>> And then he he helping us to escape.

>> Okay.

>> It's middle of the winter like all the

snow was can't come down and then the

lighting was um very pretty. Okay.

>> That time. Yeah. And then um we're

trying to walk very quietly trying to

not like um can um step on snow too

much.

>> Okay.

>> So and then the river was frozen. So my

mom and then him and three of us we

escaped.

>> Okay. Three of us. The soldier. Your

mom?

>> The soldier and my mom. Um no three of

us. He was go nearby China.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> The border there's like the um lines and

stuff.

>> Okay.

>> And the walls and also um iron.

>> Yes.

>> Electric electricity iron. But I heard

usually those ones are not working

because it's a like

>> like long. Okay.

>> So those ones are not working usually.

So

>> Okay.

>> We were jumping to that walls.

>> Okay. And then I wear the glove and then

I get I ripped my glove.

>> Okay. Did it feel dangerous in that

moment? Were you Were you afraid?

>> I was so excited.

>> Excited.

>> I was so excited to going to China

because it's new whole world for me and

my mom gets scared and nervous because

she went to jail one time and she

doesn't want to go back to jail. Okay.

>> And I never went to jail in my life. But

I do get worried so much. Okay.

>> About about being caught.

>> Yeah. About being caught.

>> Okay. And you arrive in China and what

happens?

>> So I arrived in China and then my mom's

friend he

my mom's friend he brought the car

>> and then my mom had a like Chinese

phone. Okay.

>> So he called my um my mom called him and

then he come to nearby China border and

then he pick up us.

>> Okay.

>> And he took us to his house. Okay.

>> And he feed us.

>> Okay.

>> Chinese food.

>> And to go into China was easy from from

>> my mom. She speak Chinese.

>> Okay.

>> So, and then he she have a lot of she

knows a lot of people in China.

>> Okay. Okay. So, you go to his house, he

feits you. So, everything is fine where

you

>> And then my mom, she had a um apartment.

>> Okay.

>> And then um I stay my mom's apartment.

apartment was really nice.

>> Okay.

>> Compared to North Korea,

>> okay,

>> and you can turn on hot and hot and cold

water whenever you want. Okay.

>> In North Korea, you have to pump

>> cold water.

>> Cold water. Winter, summer, like

>> Okay. Wow.

>> Yeah.

>> And then for for how long did you stay

in China?

>> Stay China for um two weeks.

>> Okay. with my mom for like 3 to seven

days and start leaving escaping from um

China.

>> Okay.

>> So, I had a um

>> You didn't want to stay in China?

>> My mom, she doesn't want me to stay in

China.

>> Okay.

>> Because she want me to go to US.

>> Okay.

>> Because all her um business partners,

they sending their kids to United

States.

>> Okay. to learn more education, more

variety of life.

>> Okay.

>> So my mom seeing that heard of it and

then she want me to go to US.

>> Okay.

>> And not no not South Korea but she said

oh South Korea is optional but America

is bigger optional.

>> Okay.

>> So go to America.

>> So from China you were you went straight

to

>> in China I was in uh nearby North Korean

border right?

>> Okay. like that's the nearby um North

Korea and then I moved to farther away

>> away from North Korean border.

>> Okay.

>> And then I escaped from North China to

Rouse that's mountain. It was like

banana farm

to rouse. So it's nearby Rouse it was

warm.

>> Okay.

>> Like China that time is a winter time.

So when you go nearby um South Asia, it

become warmer.

>> Yes.

>> So I brought big jacket. I have to cut

my arm out.

>> Mhm.

>> And then make it sleeves.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> And then um I was in banana farm and

then the um farmers they kill one peak

and then cook like cook and make it like

food for us.

>> Okay. the Chinese people and then like

two days later we stay there two days.

It was in the group and then we

um go to North Korea border uh no China

border to Rouse.

>> Okay.

>> That was in the mountain.

>> Okay.

>> So I was um go to mountain for um three

mountains.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. three mountains I walked and then

it be it's Rouse

>> and there's uh Rouse broker was there

and then um maybe seven seven I think

seven or eight no screen defectors we

are all together and then moving

together like um one gathering here one

gathering here like keep adding like

that so it become like six people six

seven people

>> from where

>> from like they they used to live in

China for 10 years some ladies

they have to make kids. They brought

their kids with them. And some women,

they've been living in China for 20

years and they have two kids they bring

with them because they're moms.

>> Okay.

>> And then

so all these people gathering and for me

is I'm fresh coming from North Korea

with the no kids.

>> Yeah. A lot of people, a lot of North

Korean womans, they're staying in China

for many many years. They sold it by

Chinese people like sold it by like

disabled people. People who cannot marry

with the woman.

>> Okay.

>> They are sold North Korean woman to them

>> are sold.

>> Yeah. Sold.

>> Okay. So one of my um group there's a

lady she was staying in the um dog house

in outside of dog house because

sometimes Chinese government checking

too

>> if there are North Korean people.

>> Yeah. Oh that too. And also sometimes

Chinese people Chinese government

they're checking on households I think

sometimes.

>> Wow.

>> So there she's sometimes hiding in the

um

>> animal dog's house. Wow.

>> So that's what I heard.

>> When when you arrived in China, did you

feel a

>> safe

>> a cultural shock?

>> Cultural shock. I was so happy by that

like everything um everything is bright

and then the electricity is like 24

hours, the hot and warm water and nice

environment and I was so happy. And then

I I love shopping and my mom took me

shopping.

>> Okay. and she bought me a lot of clothes

and uh we went to sauna. So, and then I

watched the um South Korean drama like

day to night, day to night

>> live

>> all the time. Yeah.

>> Right.

>> Yeah, I had an amazing time that time.

>> And did you feel safe in China?

>> Um I feel a little bit scared. Whoever

locked the door.

>> Okay.

>> I'm just trying to be silent. That's

what my mom told me. Whoever locked the

door, just don't say anything. Just stay

quiet. Okay.

>> Turn off your computer and then just

don't say anything.

>> Okay. And and then after that, where do

you go?

>> So, China border to Rouse and Rouse to

Thailand. Okay.

>> So, Rouse border, we were staying in

hotel and then there's a one bed and

then it's like all all concrete.

Obviously, we cannot sleep on the

concrete. There's there's just one

blanket too. It's like motel or hotel.

>> Okay.

>> And then like seven or eight people

trying to sleep in a one bed.

>> Okay.

>> It's impossible to sleep well.

>> Mhm.

>> And then it was very difficult um

situation.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. And then anyway, we just take a

turn to sleep.

>> Okay.

>> Like you sleep maybe 4 hours on the bed

and then someone try take a turn to

sleep on the 4 hours. It was very

difficult. Sure.

>> And then um that time we were in Ros one

room and then um next morning we take a

narrow boat from Rouse to Thailand

border.

>> Okay.

>> So that's like um it's um it's river.

>> Okay.

>> So we crossed that and then we were

looking for police.

>> Okay.

>> Thai police.

>> Why? Uh because uh Thai Tai I think Tai

is internationally friendly.

>> Yeah.

>> So they are friends with America.

They're friends with South Korea.

They're friends with internationally.

They're are like friendly country. So uh

we were looking for police and then uh

we were staying in the uh police

station.

>> Okay.

>> And then we moved to bigger um

international

jail.

>> Okay.

>> Camp. Okay.

>> Jail or camp like you can name it both

because it it does look like jail. Okay.

>> And then sometimes it is camp because

people who from Vietnam they want to go

to US they're staying for eight years

with like 11 kids. They're like

immigrating immigration

>> process going on. So it can be like

immigration camp or it can be jail. It

does look like jail.

>> Okay. So I've been stay there for I've

been stay there for eight eight months

by myself and with the other North

Korean defectors as well and also like

so many different uh criminals that

means no it's like high criminal it just

um over visa

um

Vietnamese people they're over visa but

they're um they're processing waiting

for going to US for many many years

>> but you were forced to Stay there for 8

months.

>> Yes, I have to stay there for 8 months

because the interview term is like many

many interviews.

>> Okay.

>> Going on. So I was a refugee.

>> Was it tough?

>> It was tough because it's in a jail

course.

>> I can imagine.

>> Yeah.

>> And after the those eight months, what

happened?

>> Eight months later, I got the airplane

ticket.

>> Okay.

>> And then I fly to US. They give me

airplane ticket

>> right to the US.

>> Right to the US.

>> Okay. Okay. And then

>> that was my first time riding a

airplane.

>> Okay.

>> I was so excited.

>> Excited or scared?

>> Oh, yeah. Also excited and scared.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. And

and what did you fear the most in all of

this process from North Korea to the US?

What's

>> was your biggest fear? fear

>> maybe

somebody sending you back to North

Korea.

>> Yeah, I never um I really want to go

visit China.

>> Okay.

>> Because that time I was rushing

myself to coming to US.

>> Okay.

>> So I always want to go visit China but I

think it's really dangerous.

>> Okay. because um China is communism and

they a lot of Chinese police they

sending North Koreans back and I also

hear like some North Korean um

government people they come to China for

like certain reason

>> to just catching North Koreans and then

send them back.

>> Okay.

>> So it's really scary

>> okay

>> place. I would love to speak about the

your arrival to the rest of the world

because probably you didn't understand

many things right probably what

capitalism was you didn't understand

many probably going to a shopping mall

>> it's it's something like really

different for you back then right how

was it what what what things did you

find very surprising what things you

didn't like or or you loved maybe

>> I mean I love you know I'm girly girl,

so I love shopping. And

>> okay,

>> when I was high school, uh my foster

family were white and then they were um

her her their daughter and me, we were

dropping in the shopping mall like just

told us like you guys have only two

hours and three hours in the shopping

mall. We're going to pick you up pick

you up you guys.

>> Okay.

>> And then we were just get lost and then

buying lots of stuff and it was amazing

time. I bought this red jack uh pink

jacket.

>> Okay.

>> And I love it. And then I don't have it

anymore, but that time I was so happy to

wear like this pink jacket.

>> And did you remember your first time

going into a supermarket?

>> Supermarket. Yes. I

>> um I hate walking because in North Korea

we walk and riding a bike all the time.

Okay.

>> So, my foster family, I don't have like

haircom and then my foster mom, she took

me to Walgreens.

>> Okay.

>> And then she her car car was right

outside, but she just want to walk for

healthiness.

>> Okay.

>> And for me, it's like I pissed off.

>> Okay.

>> Because I hate walking.

>> Okay.

>> And then America is like so boring. It's

like plain. And in China, compared to

China, it's like a lot of buildings and

lots of lights and leon signs and it's

all excitement like that. But when you

are in US, it's more um more like trees,

more houses and trees and so plain.

>> So I was very disappointed on that. But

later on more I leave, I get used to it.

But you probably felt like an alien at

the beginning, right? Like a different

>> so tall. My foster family were so tall.

>> Okay.

>> And then I was like, "Oh my god, they're

going to leave with me."

>> And the restaurants and all the

businesses.

>> Yes.

>> Everything must been must has must has

been must have been crazy for you,

right?

>> Yes, it was.

>> Was the the the most shocking thing?

What? What was it? The

>> um just wearing a shoes in the house.

>> Okay.

>> Yeah. They told me, "Come on, come on."

And I was trying to take off shoes. They

said, "No, you don't have to take off

shoes." And that was

>> That was the most shocking for you.

>> Yes. The f first step into house.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. And And what else?

>> And then pie.

>> Yeah.

>> The first time I tried the apple pie.

>> Okay.

>> And I take I taste the cinnamon

>> and I didn't like that. But now I can

eat the cinnamon.

>> Okay. Did you get used to the flavors?

>> Yeah, now I get used to the flavors, but

it's not my favorite.

>> Okay. Yeah.

>> But in general, the flavors you're

you're fine with the American food right

now?

>> Yes. Now I'm fine with it.

>> And desserts and everything.

>> Dessert and turkeys and

>> Were were you used to sweet foods like

ice cream? Probably you never tasted

this back in Kore in North Korea.

>> Oh, we do have ice creams. We do have

ice creams.

>> Okay. Okay. Yeah, we have like um ice

cream, but sometimes it's so funny that

when the um electricity is shut down the

ice cream, half of ice cream is like

>> you cannot get it out.

>> Half of it.

>> Half of just half of it.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Wow.

>> It was so funny. And they trying to

selling the ice cream, but just half of

it stuck.

>> Okay.

>> You cannot like get a whole thing.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. And also how did

you do to adapt to the to this new world

in terms of education? Did you have to

study from scratch? Did you go to

university?

>> I didn't.

>> Sorry.

>> Yeah. No. No.

>> So I didn't speak English at all. And

then my foster family, they teach me how

to pronounce

um words.

>> Okay.

>> And I read a book with them every 15 to

20 minutes.

>> Okay. They sit next to me and then I

read it and they read repeat.

>> What What do you mean by foster family?

>> Foster family is under 18. 18 is adults.

>> Okay.

>> So under the 18 is um your kids. You

need a regal guardians.

>> Okay.

>> Regal guardian means that you need to

have adults to be with you.

>> So you didn't go with your mom to the

US?

>> Yeah. I didn't go to imam. I didn't go

with my mom. So I was kid. So they're my

um family. They the American American

government they find this family to kind

of adoption.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay.

>> But it's it's a little bit different

than adoption.

>> Okay. And in which in which part of the

US was this at the beginning?

>> This is uh Denver, Colorado.

>> Denver. Okay. Oh, nice nice nice. And

what did you do in terms of education

after learning English? Because now you

work, right? Yes.

>> Okay. What do you want?

>> Learn learn English and then I went to

high school.

>> Okay.

>> I joined the ESL class. I finished four

years high school in US.

>> Okay.

>> And then I went to um I went to college

but that time I was adults. No one

support me.

>> Sure.

>> It was really hard for me.

>> Okay.

>> And then um I just dropped the college.

I went to beauty school and I just

focusing on one career path and now I

have my own business.

>> What kind of business?

>> I have beauty business like skin care

and lash extensions.

>> That's awesome, huh?

>> Yeah.

>> Congratulations. Honestly,

>> thank you.

>> No, for real.

>> Like coming to a foreign country without

knowing the language, then

>> studying the language, then studying

from scratch like high school

>> techniques.

>> That's great. That's a really success

like a really nice success story.

>> Oh, thank you.

>> Love to hear that.

>> Thank you.

>> No, no, no.

>> Yeah.

>> Okay. Great. Great. Great. So, it was

was it very tough the educa education

especially high school for you if you

were if you didn't speak like perfect

English must have been tough, right?

>> Yes, it was really hard for me.

Especially science and government class

and finance class. These professional

classes, it's really hard for me. So my

ESL second language teachers they're uh

teaching me how to solve these questions

in government um subject.

>> Okay.

>> So like they helping uh homework

homework assignments.

>> Okay. And after you left North Korea,

because as as you been as you've been

telling us, you felt the pressure all

the time on you. And after you left, did

you still feel some pressure like being

observed or being watched or did you

just forget about it right away? Um,

sometimes I do feel like maybe my red

lights here and then like just kill me

and trying to um hide uh trying to like

block the window sometimes because I

don't want outside people to see me that

like if like my windows while open I

feels like someone going to like you

know shoot you sniper.

>> Yeah. Sometime it's too much. Maybe I

watch too much drama or movies.

>> But you felt guilty at the beginning by

watching movies, American movies for

example, or listening to music or you

felt just fine.

>> Um I feel just fine.

>> Okay. Okay. So you you didn't carry that

trauma? No. A little bit?

>> No.

>> Not that not really. Not really.

>> Okay. Okay. Okay.

>> But when I was in China, I was it it

felt same thing.

um in North Korea.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> Because um China and North Korea is very

close and like someone locking the door.

So that made me feel pressure. But um

other than that, I didn't feel any

pressure when I come to US watching any

types of movie. Anything else that

shocked you regarding your new life,

social media, some social dynamics, the

I don't know anything else

>> shocking

>> shocking for you? Yeah. When you arrive

in the US,

>> I think shocking thing is like how rich

like finance finance wise like how rich

young people h is like you.

I think it's amazing that like people uh

find their way to um be success.

>> Okay.

>> And how rich they are.

>> The American dream.

>> Yeah. American dreams. Like

>> you have yours

>> because what is it?

>> You have yours.

>> I have mine. Yeah. Yeah. But like when I

look at other people how success they

are, that's shocking.

>> Okay. Okay.

>> Evelyn, it was a pleasure talking to

you. you have a really interesting story

and uh and I'm glad that it has a happy

ending. You have you're successful with

your business

>> and a great story. So, I was very happy

to meet you.

>> Yes. Okay. Thank you so much for invite

me here. I'm honored to share my story

with you guys. Thank you.

>> It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Thank

you.