Original subtitles

Our man in Hanoi was just that for 6 and

a2 years after being shot down over

North Vietnam in 1966. Captain Douglas

Pete Peterson was North Vietnam's

prisoner of war till

1973. So why on earth would he want to

go back there? because the president

asked him to ask this three-term

congressman from Florida to be our first

ambassador to Vietnam. And who better to

tell that story than Bob Simon, who was

CBS's man in the Gulf, was for a time

himself a prisoner of war.

There was no red carpet for Pete

Peterson the first time he landed in

Vietnam. Just this green rice patty 60

miles east of Hanoi. It was Captain

Peterson's 67th bombing mission when his

F4 Phantom was hit by a surfaceto-air

missile. It was a dark and moonless

night. By the time he and his co-pilot

hit the ground, Peterson was in so much

pain from so many broken bones that he

wasn't sure he'd make it through the

night. In fact, he wasn't sure he wanted

to. I took the 38 out and I had to make

the decision of whether or not I wanted

off the planet then or I was going to

weigh it out. So, you actually take out

your 38 and think about doing yourself

in?

Absolutely.

Pete Peterson was surprised to find

himself sitting in a rice patty, the

remains of his brand new F4 several

miles away. Because Peterson knew one

thing for sure when he joined the Air

Force when he waved goodbye to his

pregnant wife, Carlotta, and his two

young kids. He knew he was invincible.

Well, as a fighter pilot, you have to

feel that way. even though you're not.

You never know when the golden BB's

coming your way. And of course, you're

competent. It's not going to be you. Uh

I learned later that that wasn't always

true. But at that time, at that photo,

clearly

uh I was invincible. It was a faith

shared by Peterson's co-pilot, Bunny

Thally, who now found himself trying to

help the man who was quite clearly

beyond help. I said, "Hey, we got to

go." So, I got him out of his harness

and I grabbed him and and tried to carry

him and and boy, every time I touched

him, he just started screaming and

rightly so cuz he was hurting so bad.

Finally, Captain Peterson ordered

Lieutenant Tally to leave him and make a

run for it. And boy, I just thought to

myself, what am I going to explain to

Carla? How am I going to explain this to

her? And I wasn't sure if he did himself

in before they got him or whether he

shot it out with them. He wasn't. He

thought Pete was dead. I thought he was

dead one way or the other.

And then you're sitting there.

It's very

quiet if I

recall, but not for long.

Uh I saw flashlights some distance away

and I could hear voices uh voice

high octave. I mean they were they were

making a lot of noise and were I mean

they just came my way just here. Right

here. Right here. It was right here.

We're standing right in the spot where

Peterson landed.

Yes. And when you approached the tree,

what did you do?

I thought I had no other choice than to

jump and hold

him. If I didn't jump, maybe he would

shoot me. And I was very frightened at

that moment. And I thought the thing to

do was jump on him. Mr. Singh and Mr.

shop were militia men in the village of

Andoi. They were the first to welcome

Captain Peterson to North Vietnam with a

machete and an old French musket. It was

the high point of their lives. Did he

try to resist you? Did he fight you?

No. No. Let me tell you very frankly, if

he had resisted at that time, he

wouldn't be alive today. You would have

killed him. Yes. Mr. Singh and Mr. Chop

had never seen a downed American before,

but they knew exactly what to do. Get

his boots and clothes off right away.

Except it wasn't so easy. They started

to uh take my flight suit and they

couldn't get it off. They couldn't get

it whatever. I couldn't move. I don't

know what the problem was, but uh this

one came at me with a knife. And so as

he got closer to me, uh, I just out of

normal reaction, I just grabbed his I

just bit him. I bit his hand. It was

front page news in the province. Mr.

Singh and Mr. Chop were local heroes.

And Captain Peterson, he was in the

headlines, too. Back in Florida, he had

just joined the ranks of the missing.

It's a day uh like today on a Sunday

right after uh coming back from church.

Uh beautiful Sunday. And we added around

the table and sat down to eat and the

doorbell rang. And of course it was the

chaplain and the men in blue. And you

could tell by uh mom's reaction that uh

it wasn't good news.

Mike and Paula Peterson were seven and

nine at the time. Their mother,

Carlotta, saved everything. Photos,

newspaper clippings, that first dark

letter.

It's with deep regret that I officially

inform you that your husband, Captain

Douglas B. Peterson, has been missing in

action in North Vietnam since 10

September

1966. I always knew where I was and I

always knew where she

was. Uh, but she never knew where I was

nor how I was.

How was he? He was checking into the

Hanoi Hilton, the 131st American guest

in that Vietnamese hotel.

You could call the place the Hanoi

Hilton as part of your humor, but it was

not in fact a Hilton. No, not hardly.

And uh there were a lot of

people, a lot of

people had a great deal of pain

there. Great deal of pain.

Sometimes the pain came in spurts,

interrogations, torture. Sometimes it

lasted for weeks.

They kept you manicled to aboard for

weeks on end. Couple weeks and I think

there are others were much longer than

that without ever releasing you during

these weeks. Uh not really. What they

would do is they allow uh in a case

where a friend of mine and I were tied

up together on one meal they'd untie the

one to go over and feed the other. and

uh for uh bowel movements and whatever

else you just had to do on your own. And

so while you're tied up, right? And the

family for three and a half years, no

news, no letters, nothing. Then Hanoi

released a propaganda film, Ps attending

a Christmas mass in 1969.

Pentagon intelligence experts say there

are 75 men pictured in this silent film.

the largest group of war prisoners ever

shown in one place.

I

remember seeing

him walking into church on a TV program.

I knew it was my dad instantly when I

saw him. That was the first time I ever

was sure that my daddy was going to be

coming home.

Paula may have been sure, but her father

wasn't. It took three more years before

Pete Peterson found himself standing at

attention at the Hanoi airport, being

formally turned over from the Vietnamese

to the Americans. And he still didn't

believe it then.

It was only until after we got wheels in

the well, after we were

airborne and the wheels of the aircraft

came in,

uh, that we went bonkers. I mean, the

whole airplane just went crash.

Everybody's yelling, shouting, the whole

place is just chaos. And we knew then,

of course, that we had escaped.

In a matter of hours, the transformation

was complete from prisoner to hero.

Major Peterson was following a

reconnaissance. Pete Peterson received

the homecoming he'd been dreaming of

since the moment he was captured. But

homecomings are rarely simple affairs.

You were Rip Van Winkl. Absolutely. 6

and 1/2 years you had no idea music,

clothes, language. We didn't know who

the president was.

We didn't know that there was a man on

the moon.

That was history. This was home. A young

son, Doug, whom he'd never met before.

These were the kids growing up. You And

these these are the kids you never saw.

You never saw them like that. Oh, no.

No, I sure didn't. I missed seven years

of their lives. And uh you only have one

10th

birthday. You don't make that up. And

you only have one championship

basketball game or whatever it is that

you don't make that up. You can reflect

perhaps. Uh these are time scars. That's

what they are. They're time scars. And

the wounds were made by the very same

men Peterson will be presenting his

credentials to in Hanoi.

Do you hate them now? No. I I I checked

the hate at the door. And I know that

sounds trit perhaps and impossible, but

I really did. I walked out and said,

"No, this this is over. I survived. I

made it." And he made Congress take

notice, standing up for the renewal of

relations with Vietnam long before it

became fashionable. And then when he

accepted President Clinton's offer to

become our man in Hanoi, he took flack

from fellow veterans, even from members

of his own squadron like Texas

Congressman Sam Johnson, also a P. The

veterans don't want us to go in there

and and restore diplomatic relations

until we know what happened to our guys.

Peterson says, as you know, the war is

over. It's time to move on. time to

restore relations. They haven't given us

a full and complete accounting of our PS

and I think that's the real question.

And you don't think we should send an

ambassador there until they do all of

that? I don't think we should have

diplomatic relations. Sam Johnson, how

do you explain the fact that a guy who

went through such a similar experience

as you did came out with it with such a

different view? The difference is

perhaps the lessons that we think we've

learned. The Lord didn't save my life to

come back home to be

angry and to get

back. Uh I felt that the lesson that I

had out of that was that I was saved. My

life was was preserved to do something

constructive.

Remember Bunny Tally Peterson's

co-pilot? His life was preserved, too.

and he thinks the best way to get the

fullest possible accounting of our

missing men is to send the toughest guy

to Hanoi.

What do you think his experience as a P

will add to his performance as

ambassador? Well, I think that one thing

he would be a great poker player with

him because I can guarantee you that

they're not going to be able to bluff uh

Pete Peterson because he has he has seen

them firsthand when they're trying to

bluff him.

But why would the Vietnamese want

Peterson at the table? After all, to

them, Peterson is not a long-suffering

P, but a man who dropped bombs on them

during an unjust war of

aggression. Your 67th mission, you got

shot down and led to six and a half very

unhappy years. But in your first 66

missions, you were dropping bombs. You

were probably did a lot of damage. I'm

sure I did. probably killed some people.

I'm sure I did. Maybe some civilians.

I'm fairly certain I did.

How do you think the Vietnamese will

react to an ambassador coming over who

probably killed some of their folks?

Well, I as I would say to anyone, uh I

was a combat fighter pilot. This was a

uh this was a war we're talking about,

and there are going to be civilian

losses in any war. There were losses,

profound losses for Peterson, too. That

young son, Doug, he met for the first

time when he returned home, was killed

in a car accident at the age of 16. And

Carla, the wife, who never stopped

working and praying for her husband,

died two years ago.

But when he revisits the village where

he made his first landing, he'll be

pleasantly surprised. He will not

believe the way he'll be greeted this

time around.

If Peterson comes and visits your

village and you meet him, what do you

say to him?

I would consider him a friend and I

would welcome him. I really don't know

what else to say. Will you tell him

you're sorry you took his boots off? No,

it was my duty. There was nothing heroic

about it. Mr. Singh, is there anything

you'd like to say to Peterson if he

comes here? I'm sure he will come here.

What do you say to him when he comes?

Comrade, if Peterson comes here now and

visit her families and a village, he

will be welcomed like a brother.

If you think Peterson's voyage from P to

Ambassador is remarkable, Vietnam's been

on a pretty good trip, too. Take the

Hanoi Hilton and everything it meant to

Peterson and all the PS. The facade's

still here, but right behind us, right

where the cells were, a new luxury

high-rise is reaching towards the skies.

It'll have a convention center, a

shopping mall, and a five-star hotel,

room service, sauna, and massage. The

kind of accommodation the Vietnamese

might offer a man who'll be building

bridges instead of bombing them.

Former CIA director William Kby

disappeared last weekend, apparently

while canoeing in Maryland. Over the

years, we've often gone to Bill Kobe for

his expertise. In an interview just four

weeks ago, he confirmed for us details

of a disastrous covert operation he had

launched in Vietnam back in

1961. We call this report the Lost

Commandos. To begin, it is hard to

believe that American officers in

Vietnam would abandon their men, but

that is exactly what happened. The men

were South Vietnamese commandos whom the

CIA and the US military had recruited,

trained, paid, and sent parachuting down

into North Vietnam during the

1960s. Every one of those commandos,

hundreds of them, while employed by the

US, were either killed or captured. But

beyond that, their American superiors

rode off the commandos who were still in

prison in North Vietnam. The US never

negotiated for their release. When Bill

Colby was CIA station chief in Saigon,

he helped create the program to send the

commandos into the north. What were they

supposed to do up there? get in touch

with people in their home communities or

other communities and establish some

networks and see whether we could look

forward to resupplying them with some

weapons and conduct some guerilla

operations in the long term. Any

sabotage? Yeah, sure. Blowing bridges,

of course. All that sort of thing. Yeah.

And they didn't blow a bridge. Not that

I know of. Didn't give you any

intelligence? Not particularly. No. So,

it was a failure from the get-go,

basically. Yeah. It didn't work. So

these people were going up there and

either being killed or captured. Mhm.

Two of the men who were captured are Din

Vanlam and Nwin Van Hu. The CIA hired

them, trained them, paid them, and

parachuted them down into North Vietnam.

This is confirmed in a once classified

report on the commando program compiled

for the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Soon

after Lamb and Hu landed in the north,

they were put in prison where they faced

malnutrition, hard labor, and worse.

Often we were put into solitary

confinement and our legs were shackled.

Because of the shackles, our legs would

become dislocated and paralyzed. The

rats were this big. But when they bit

into our legs, we could not even feel it

because our legs were so numb. They were

not alone. Hundreds of commandos were

captured because even though the program

was not working, America kept sending

them in. Were the men who were sent up,

did they know that nobody had ever

produced anything or I doubt it. So

these guys were just going up

ostensibly. They were heroic fellas who

volunteered for a very dangerous mission

and they knew it. They knew it was

dangerous. They didn't know it was

hopeless. We have done something so

horrible that is a stain on all of those

who served. Sedric Turison went to

Vietnam almost 30 years ago as an

interrogator with Army Intelligence.

Since then, he has worked on P and MIA

issues for the Defense Intelligence

Agency and for a Senate Select

Committee. And now he has made it his

mission to dig up once classified

information on the lost commandos. While

researching his book, Secret Army,

Secret War, Turison discovered that

North Vietnam had spies inside the

commando operation so the North knew

when the commandos were coming. The

first armed team landed in North Vietnam

in May of 1961. Mhm. And as the team

commander said to me, they were waiting

for us. And they told us after we had

been captured, they had been waiting for

us for two weeks. Did the US know that

these teams that had parachuted down

were being captured? Yes. The US knew

that Lamb and who were caught because

Radio Hanoi reported they were picked up

by local militia. In fact, the North

Vietnamese captured every team the CIA

dropped. But the CIA kept on parachuting

them in for more than two years. CIA

tried so hard to make it work in the

summer of

1963 that nearly 50 agents in 72 hours

parachuted all over the place to try and

get something going to keep Washington

happy. And they were all captured. After

that and after he had lost more than 150

commandos, Colby said he finally had to

acknowledge this was not going to work.

My deputy came to me and said, "Look,

we're not getting anywhere with this.

It's it's a waste. It's not working. So,

let's stop. And I said, I agree. But KBY

was not able to stop the program.

Instead, he said Defense Secretary

Robert McNamera had the CIA turned the

commando operation over to the military.

Even though Colby said he warned

McNamera against it, I said, "Mr.

Secretary, it isn't going to work. We've

tried it. I don't think it'll work." He

just looked and didn't answer. And

obviously, the program went on. One

month later, Robert McNamera went to

President Johnson and said in effect

that this

operation was going to

succeed. It was going to do what CIA

couldn't do. Colby said McNamera thought

the military could do it bigger and

better. That if they just dropped enough

commandos into North Vietnam, some good

would come of it. But dropping in more

men simply meant that more men were

lost. McNamera, who gave countless

interviews while promoting his recent

book on the war, preferred not to talk

to us about the lost commandos. They're

captured, they're

imprisoned, or they're shot. Why keep

sending them? It became a

plan that just kept going, and no one

had the courage to say, "It isn't

working. Let's shut it down. The

commando program lasted for seven years.

The US had promised the commandos that

while they were away, their paychecks

would keep going to their families. But

after a while, so many relatives were

getting paid that it became a

bookkeeping bother. So, the military

came up with a grizzly solution. They

told the families the commandos were

dead. According to the report for the

Joint Chiefs of Staff, we reduced the

number gradually by declaring so many of

them dead each month until we had

written them all off and removed them

from the monthly payrolls. Of course, we

knew they were alive. So, it was just to

keep from having to pay. That's correct.

These men who had worked for us and been

captured for us. At the same time, we

were bringing new agents into the

program, telling them, "Don't worry, if

you go to North Vietnam, we will

continue your paying allowances to your

family." But Din Van Lam's wife says

that she received her husband's salary

for only three months, and then a

stranger brought heartbreaking news and

a modest death payment, about $500.

I cried out loud and asked him how long

my husband had been dead, but then he

started to run away and did not answer

me at all. And how many years went by

before you

realized that you were not a widow,

16 years.

John Mattis is an attorney representing

the commandos. I think there was a firm

belief that these men would all die in

the prisoner war camps and that the dead

men would tell no tales and that this

would all be swept under the rug. And it

gets worse. When the American PS were

released in 1973, the commandos thought

they would get out, too. But Henry

Kissinger, who negotiated for the

Americans, told us he was never informed

about the commando. So naturally, he

never asked for their release. American

PS came home. America's Vietnamese

commandos stayed in prison. Shouldn't

somebody at CIA have said something? I

presume so. But I think that and I would

say yes flatly. But uh I think at the

time by that time by 1973 I think the

CIA's connections with these operations

was 10 years ago.

The worst nightmare about our experience

in Vietnam is in fact the reality. We

left our men

behind. We deserted men and we left them

to languish as PS. There's been so much

talk about P MIA, but only about

American young men. But these people,

you say, were working for for the United

States, but for the fact these men were

Asian. It wouldn't have happened. The

CIA would never have done this to white

Yale graduates. Would never have left

them behind.

The US passed up another chance to help

the commandos in

1981. Commando Vuakung escaped from

prison and eventually he made it all the

way to Chicago where he had an attorney

write to Secretary of State Alexander

Heg. He told Heg that more than 300 of

America's commandos were still in prison

and he asked Heg to help get them out.

One of Heg's assistants wrote back that

if there was a problem with prisoners,

inquiries on the matter should be

addressed to the appropriate authorities

in the Socialist Republic of Vietnam.

Heg told us he does not remember the

letter. By the time Hanoi finally freed

the commandos, some of them had remained

in prison for 15 years after the

American PWs had come home. When Tin

Vanlam returned to his family, his

children did not believe that it was he.

My wife said, "This is your father." And

she produced a picture of me. This one.

She handed it to them to gradually

identify me. My son rubbed my face. Then

patted my shoulder and then he embraced

his father.

Vietnamese who worked for the American

government were supposed to be eligible

to come to the United States after the

war. And some commandos have come. But

for years, many of them were rejected by

the US immigration and naturalization

service, the INS. INS was turning them

down time after time after time to come

from Vietnam. That's correct. Telling

them after they had languished for 20

years in a prison camp, no, your story

of involvement with the CIA is too

incredible. And they would stamp their

forms. Not credible. no credible proof

of prior association with the United

States. That finally changed last year

when the US ambassador to Thailand sent

a long cable urging the INS to accept

the commandos. After that, the INS

issued travel documents to many of them

and is in the process of issuing more.

But the commandos remind the CIA and the

Pentagon that there is still a debt to

be paid. American PS were paid for the

time they languished in prison. And now

more than 200 commandos have filed suit

against the United States asking for

back pay. $2,000 a year for each year

they spent in prison. Not interest, not

pain and suffering, money that they're

owed as part of their contracts. It may

be 30 years

later, but they'd like to have their

back pay. As the attorney said, no pain

and suffering. You can't put a price on

that. Yeah. Just give us what you agreed

to give us. But the Pentagon and the CIA

have so far refused to pay, claiming the

commandos cannot prove they were

employed by the United States. And

besides that, they filed their lawsuit

too late. They didn't get to the

courthouse in time. Where were they for

20 years? Was it perhaps we left them in

a prison or war camp? Mattis says the

Pentagon's own report for the joint

chiefs proves the commandos were

employed by the US and Bill KBY said

these men deserve to be paid. If you're

talking about do we owe a moral

obligation to them, I'm right with you.

I don't have any problem that we and we

have not fulfilled that moral

obligation. The cost would be 11 to 12

million. And Kobe said the Congress

could pass a bill now authorizing

payment as a way of fulfilling America's

moral obligation to the commandos. I

would support paying it. You know, it's

not that much money on the whole

Pentagon budget. That's for sure. And uh

it is a would be a matter of grace by us

to do. Why has this story never been

told?

I think it was too embarrassing to be

honest, Mike. People sat on this. What

happens when you throw away a whole army

and then declare them all

dead? It's been 20 years since the last

American soldiers came home from

Vietnam, and those who did are still not

convinced that either side is doing

enough to account for those who didn't.

To this day, finding out once and for

all what happened to our missing in

action, our MIAs, remains the principal

stumbling block to normalizing relations

between our two countries. So last

spring, the largest Vietnam veterans

group, the Vietnam Veterans of America,

decided to bypass official government

channels and deal directly with the very

soldiers they fought 20 years ago on the

battlefield. The appeal was simple

enough. Maybe the Vietnamese veterans

could help locate our 1600 missing in

action. If American veterans could help

the Vietnamese locate the more than

300,000 of their soldiers still missing.

So, the Vietnam Veterans of America

asked their former members to go into

their garages and atticts and search out

war trophies that they transported

across an ocean 20 years ago and stored

away in foot lockers and duffel bags

unopened like Pandora's box. Back here I

have a helmet taken from a North

Vietnamese soldier. It's got his name on

it. It has something else in Vietn Pat

Burke was her first lieutenant with the

US Army in Quangnai Province in 1970.

Today he's a bank officer in Lafayette,

Louisiana. I thought about it for a long

time. Uh but I think that if there's

some mother in North Vietnam who doesn't

know what happened to her son that this

would be important for her to get. They

were killed. The items came into the

Vietnam Veterans of America headquarters

in Washington by the box load. Grave

markers for enemy soldiers that the

North Vietnamese had made from a downed

US helicopter. Hound it in with a nail.

Somebody took a lot of a photo album

with snapshots taken from the body of

this highly decorated North Vietnamese

officer. In all, according to Jim

Brazie, the president of the Vietnam

Veterans of America, enough information

to help identify 1,800 former enemy

soldiers. Because

somewhere there are veterans on the

other side that know what happened to

our people just like there are veterans

on our side that can account for a lot

of Vietnamese.

There were detailed maps of enemy grave

sites drawn from memory 25 years later.

But Bill Kandle says by far the most

common items sent in were pictures,

gruesome souvenirs, but invaluable

documentary evidence for identifying the

dead.

I think it does something to you to keep

pictures of 30 dead men for 20 years.

You're talking about letting go of

something that represents

uh a day in which you lived or died, in

which friends died, in which you were

involved in killing.

So early this summer, a delegation of 14

American veterans packed up the items

and flew off to Vietnam.

For many of them, it was their first

trip back since being medevaced out on a

stretcher. Once young, shining faces now

wrinkled with middle age. We call this a

veteran to veteran exchange. When they

handed over the helmet, grave markers,

and those gruesome pictures, they had no

idea what kind of reception or reaction

they'd received from the Vietnamese.

I think this is a very significant, very

significant

They were met by Deputy Foreign Minister

Lee Mai, whose own brother is one of the

300,000 Vietnamese soldiers still

unaccounted for. Welcome you very much.

The American people have been told over

the years that the

Vietnamese don't feel the same way about

their war dead and their missing action

that the Americans do, that it wasn't

important to your government or that it

wasn't important to your people. I think

uh it is a pity that you see there's a

lack of

understanding. Of course the

culture you see of us in Vietnam is

different but we all are human beings.

The importance the Vietnamese attached

to their own missing stunned the

American veterans. Vernon Valenuela from

Bakersfield, California and Tom Manning

a deputy sheriff from Fort Lauderdale

didn't realize it until they visited a

Vietnamese family. Part of the

dehumanization that went on in our

training was to that they didn't grieve

like we do. They didn't care about their

loved ones like we do. And we walked in

there and and that there nothing could

be further from the truth. What they

walked into was the home of a Vietnamese

woman who lost her husband in 1973 near

Daang.

Mrs. Le Bin was 5 months pregnant when

her husband left to fight the Americans

in the South. She received three letters

in 10 years. He died without ever having

seen his young son.

The family was never told where or even

if he'd been buried. The last thing she

expected was a visit from former GIS. I

was so emotional I couldn't hardly talk

when when she was first talking her

story. She sat there weeping, talking

about losing her husband and how good a

man he was and stuff. And that's real

sad. There can be no greater sadness for

the father not to have known his son and

not to be able to come back to his wife.

Uh in the corner of the living room,

there's a shrine with his picture. They

exist in hundreds of thousands of homes.

It's a society that worships its

ancestors and believes if a relative

doesn't receive a proper burial, the

spirit is never at peace. And yet, there

was no anger towards the Americans, no

animosity, only sadness. When I see your

pain in remembering your husband, it

makes me want to commit stronger to help

find out answers for other families.

That's the railroad track. And that's

just what Valenuela did. Two days later,

we were on Highway One, searching for a

grave in which five Vietkong soldiers

were buried. Valenzoa had been given a

detailed map and photographs of the dead

by a former Marine named Bob Fow, who

said they were buried near a command

post called Hotel 8. Here's the grave

that they dug. The bunker would be right

over on this side. I don't see anything

that looks that mountain that close here

going up. Unless it's that one right

over there. But 26 years later,

everything had changed but the

mountains. And that could

be Well, look, there's some there's the

trees. I think we might be right there

real close. No sooner had we gotten out

of the van than we were approached by a

Vietnamese farmer. You was with Marine

Corps? Yeah. 1967. He was here. Yeah.

Did you know Hotel 8? He not only worked

for the Americans, he remembered Bob,

the Marine who had turned over the map

and pictures. They buried right here.

Five VCNVA. They buried five. Where?

Show me. Come show. You know, he

remembered exactly where the five dead

Vietkong were buried. Valenuela showed

in the pictures. This is the grave.

Is that him? Is that you? That's you.

The old man had also worked for the

Marines and had helped bury the bodies

26 years earlier. Okay, I'll tell Bob.

He'll be very happy to know that you're

still here. Ask him what happened after

the war.

[Music]

Uh he was sent to the uh relocation camp

for 4 years. for four years. Both of

them in five months. I think ongoing.

No, he didn't have to. Mhm. This area

right here. They explained that after

the war, the bodies had been dug up and

rearied at a different location, but the

soldiers had never been identified. Now,

with the pictures of the bodies, it may

be possible for the Vietnamese

government to do

that. For the Americans, the trip back

also offered something else. the promise

of finding some meaning from events a

long time ago and a chance to close a

chapter of personal history.

Let's walk down there. Yeah. In Daang,

John Patterson, a lawyer from New York,

founded on what is now one of the most

soughtafter pieces of real estate in the

world, China Beach. If you told me in

1966 that there'd be people coming back

here to surf and and build hotels, I'd

have told you crazy. He was last here 28

years ago with the US Marines. It's like

I'm casting out a demon to walk on this

sand. It's why the this this was like

hell back then. It was just every day

was survival. Every day was just staying

alive. And uh they get me out of this

place. The Vietnamese used to mine the

beach every night with unexloded mortar

rounds they'd found the day before. It

was here at age 19 that John Patterson

for the first time saw a friend die. The

second platoon moved through me and this

kid Brown moved right past me and moved

right into my position at point and he

stepped through the gate right at this

bunker up here. It had wire around it

and I remember standing back about 100

yards and I had a a Mexican sergeant

named Agalar who said to this kid Brown,

he said, "Maybe you want a probe." And

the kid bent down to step through the

gate and hit a mine and blew himself up.

And it was the first it was the first

American casualty I saw, I think. So

talk about it like it was yesterday.

It's been what? It's It was yesterday.

Almost 30 years ago. Yeah, it's 28 years

ago. It's like it was

yesterday. My

god. Is this

it?

Yeah. And this kid just stepped through

the

gate. I don't think I could go in there.

Not on a bad day. Not on a good day.

Good day. Yeah. Huh? I can go with you.

It's just one step at a time. It's just

a

beach. There's nobody trying to hurt you

here.

Let's do it. Let's do it.

I think the the war may have ended for

most of the country in

1973, but it didn't end for an awful lot

of people and including a lot of people

on this delegation. Most of us were here

a year or less and it's it's it was the

defining experience of our lives. We

carry this around with us every single

day and we think about it and we we've

never quite dealt with it. I got to go

outside. I got a gluten

man. This is just this is too real. You

never thought you'd see this again, did

you? Not today,

man. But there are a lot of people that

died up here. It didn't have to be.

Before John Patterson and the rest of

the delegation returned home, they

wanted to tackle one final mission.

Using maps and notes from two former

American soldiers who didn't make the

trip and with the help of the US MIA

task force in Hanoi, here's a bridge.

They began a search for the largest

North Vietnamese grave site they knew

about just outside Tenin, a once bloody

but long since forgotten outpost called

Landing Zone Grant.

25 years ago, it was a fire support base

just 20 miles from the Cambodian border

in the shadow of the Black Virgin

Mountain. In March of 1969, the North

Vietnamese attacked with two battalions

before the American First Cavalry

Division even finished building the base

camp. 17 Americans died here, including

the battalion commander and more than

200 North Vietnamese.

For a few days, it was big news. Then LZ

Grant was gone and forgotten, except in

the minds of the men who were

there. So armed with maps and directions

supplied by former GIs, the American

veterans took their former enemies on a

joint patrol through a cassava field in

pursuit of their dead. This rocky is a

river with a busted up bridge right

here. If we can find this river and find

this bridge, then we got one of the

American veterans who volunteered the

information wrote, "I'm 45 years old and

present in body, but my mind never left

war zone C." I don't see the day after

the attack on LZ Grand, bulldozers were

flown in on sky cranes, and the medics

used ponchos to clean up the enemy dead.

Sandbag. Sandbag's back here.

Look at us depressed. We got us a base

camp here. The letter continues, "In a

crater from an earlier B-52 striker,

maybe just a massive pit behind the LZ,

off to the northwest, a few hundred

yards from the river and a French bridge

piling is where the humanity was

bulldozed under. I believe there were a

hundred or so, or so it seemed." Look,

from the edge of that little roadway you

see right there, right down to here,

that's 40. He closed. If this

information helps the initiative and

helps even one of our brothers come

home, so be it. The letter was unsigned.

If you look, this is a pretty low spot.

If you look all around you that that and

and and running in the right direction

from east to west, there's there's a

little high ground behind me. There's a

little high ground on each side of me.

Finally, exactly where the Americans

said it would be, they found a slight

depression consistent with the mass

grave, 15 ft wide and about 8 to 10

deep. Be right in here, I think. So with

their Vietnamese counterparts beside

them, the delegation paid tribute to the

dead of both sides in a traditional

Vietnamese funeral ceremony with incense

and firecrackers.

I'm thinking about that man back in

Hanoi whose home I visited and he

pointed to this picture of his son on

the wall and he and if his son is out

here somewhere, he should know that. I

mean that that that's what this

initiative is about. And if his son son

was part of the division that was

operating out here, then we've helped

solve that man's that man's loss and he

will have some peace because now we've

been able to find his son's grave. And

there were 99 other families in this

country for whom we've done that today.

And that's an extraordinary

experience. A postcript 4 months after

the veterans helped locate the mass

grave outside Tenin, the Vietnamese

excavated the site and recovered 95

bodies.

Tonight in Vietnam, North Vietnamese and

South Vietnamese troops continue to

battle in what could be the decisive

campaign in the long unhappy history of

that country. As decisive for Richard

Nixon's policy of Vietnamization and the

very foundation of our present

involvement as it is for the future of

Vietnam itself, the question, can the

Vietnamese hack it? is one that haunts

every American soldier and politician.

Anyone who has watched Vietnam unfold

over the past decade has heard so many

asurances that the Vietnamese can fight

their own battles followed by one

disaster or another that a little bit of

cynicism is perhaps understandable.

Tonight, we look at 10 years of American

military involvement with Arvin, the

South Vietnamese Army, starting way back

in 1962 when Admiral Harry Felt, the US

commander-in-chief Pacific, was highly

pleased with Arvin's performance.

Uh, the Vietnamese armed forces are on

the offensive and they're killing

Vietkong. This is good. That was the

kind of optimism that American

commanders and politicians were to echo

for a decade. Within eight months of

Admiral Felt's statement, Arvin was to

fight its most effective battle in front

of the president's palace in Saigon when

it brought down its own government. If

it wasn't the most potent military force

in 1963, it was certainly the most

political. Arvin's toughest military

test came in 1964 when the North

Vietnamese and the Vietkong moved out of

their sanctuaries and engaged government

troops all over the country. Up north in

IOR, where they are fighting tonight,

government outposts were falling almost

daily. The desertion rate was reaching

150,000 men a year. By 1965, secret

Pentagon reports suggested that Arvin

was whipped and the only way Vietnam

could be saved was through a massive

American commitment. It came and the

first most urgent need was in Icor.

American Marines were sent in to hold

the northern half of Vietnam. That

buildup proceeded until more than half a

million men were in Vietnam. But back in

' 65, when the main communist offensive

had been blunted by Americans, Secretary

of Defense Robert McNamera was confident

that Arvin could prevail.

It requires that we supplement, not

substitute for, but supplement the South

Vietnamese forces. And since our forces

will supplement and not substitute for

their forces, it remains a South

Vietnamese war. It didn't remain so for

long. The ambushes continued and the

attrition was extraordinary. No one

knows how many men died in the jungles

of Vietnam. The administration of the

army was and apparently still is riddled

with corruption. Plush commissions were

purchased and regarded as licenses to

tax the local population. Pay for the

ordinary soldier was a doubtful thing.

Rations were usually short. All this in

spite of billions of dollars in American

aid, much of which never reached the men

it was destined for. The desertion rate

was higher than the casualty figures.

But in Saigon, it was a different army

that showed its stuff to then President

Keyi and American ambassador Henry Kat

Lodge. Arvin seemed invincible on the

parade ground. But by now

1966, in spite of continued assurances

that America was only playing a support

role, the Vietnam War was an American

war.

[Music]

Arvin was back at base camp

re-equipping, retraining, all under

American opaces. In the field, 100

Americans were dying each week. The

Pentagon was being criticized for

creating in primitive Vietnam a

technological army in the American

image. An army of questionable value in

fighting a guerilla war. But General

West Morland seemed more confident than

ever. Their troops have become more

proficient in using the helicopter and

using the weapons that we have provided

them. Uh I think the record speaks for

itself. One year later, 1968, and the

time of the great disenchantment in

America over Vietnam, the battle during

Tet, though a costly communist defeat,

showed that the enemy, if determined

enough, could attack anywhere he wanted.

Candidate Richard Nixon promised a plan

for peace. It would be achieved through

Vietnamization, a withdrawal by American

ground troops, Arvin would fight its own

battles. And in 1970, flexing their new

muscles, Arvin, with massive American

support, invaded Cambodia. But its much

vaunted intelligence system had failed.

They found stockpiles of equipment, but

the enemy was long gone. Still, the

operation had bolstered Vietnamese

morale. It was not a victory, but

neither was it a defeat. And for the

first time in its existence, Arvin could

say it had captured some territory that

once belonged to the enemy. Eight months

later, heady over its success in

Cambodia, Arvin stormed another North

Vietnamese sanctuary in Laos. It was a

route. It seemed to be the same old

Arvin of the early 60s. When it met real

opposition, it scattered in disarray.

American helicopter pilots told horror

stories of soldiers throwing away their

arms in the heat of battle and clinging

to the skids of medevac machines that

had come in to rescue the wounded.

Vietnamization seemed to have sustained

a stunning setback, but not for

Secretary of Defense Melvin Lair. If

there's been any escalation in this war,

it's been the escalation in South

Vietnam, giving South Vietnam a

capability to defend itself and to carry

on these combat responsibilities.

So, the American withdrawal continued.

By last weekend, there were only six

combat battalions of Americans left in

Vietnam, and they were mostly engaged in

perimeter defense. Arvin was out on

patrol, hacking through the same rugged

countryside that so many US Marine

battalions had hacked through for 6

years before them. It had been many

months since there had been any major

fighting anywhere. Optimists said the

enemy had been beaten. The more cautious

predicted a communist offensive. It came

10 days ago at the

DMZ. Arvin held a series of vital

hilltop positions that had been American

Army and Marine Corps fire

bases. We go back to an interview in

1967 with General Robert Kushman who

commanded the Marines in Vietnam. Well,

I'd like to point out

first Jolyn and Kantenne, while we have

no emotional attachment to them, nor

stubbornness about it, do constitute the

commanding terrain for miles

around. From these two points, one can

see all the way up into here in North

Vietnam.

Consequently, if you give these

positions up, and I say these positions,

I'm also referring to the maneuvering

forces in these areas, uh, you give up

Dong Ha, you give up Cam Lo, you give up

this whole route and you give up

probably Kesan in the end. In addition,

you then expose the provincial capital

of Kuang Tree, Ken, Jolin, half a dozen

more. All of them fell within the first

few days of battle. The North Vietnamese

laid down a withering barrage of

artillery fire on them and on the key

town of Dong Ha. The roads in Iicor

became clogged with thousands of

refugees and retreating soldiers, some

of whom had thrown away their uniforms

and joined the refugees. There were

reports that in the first engagements,

Arvin with its American tanks and

longrange American guns scattered after

initial combat.

American air power will quite likely

save the day once again for the South

Vietnamese. When things were at their

worst back in 1965, American Marines

were sent into Vietnam up there in the

first corps, what the military calls I

core. They were under the command of

Lieutenant General Lewis B. Walt, now

retired. General Walt knows the terrain

as well as any American. And in spite of

some disturbing reports, he believes, as

he always has, that the Vietnamese can

hold their own. General Walt, let me ask

you a hypothetical question. Supposing

the worst happened, Dong Ha Quank treaty

fell, all of our core fell to the North

Vietnamese. Would we have to go back in

with ground troops to save Vietnam?

First of all, I don't think such a thing

is is in the cards at all. I don't I

don't believe that the North Vietnamese

can take I core. Uh if they did take

IOR, I I believe the South Vietnamese

are still strong enough to take it back

away from them. Uh no, I don't believe

we would need to go in with ground

forces uh with the United States ground

forces in order to to retake if it were

to fall. But uh as I say, I'm confident

that I or Kong Tree City is not going to

fall. Sir, we've had since you were

there, since you went in, it's been

seven years now of

uh at best an indecisive situation in

Vietnam. How could that have been made

more decisive, do you think, if how

could we have acted differently in 1965

to change that?

When I arrived there in 1965, my orders

were rather explicit. I was to help the

South Vietnamese to drive the enemy from

their soil and to pro protect them until

they were able to take care of

themselves. We were given

no no permission or no authority

whatsoever to defeat the North

Vietnamese forces as such. Had we been

given the mission of defeating the North

Vietnamese forces, I think the the

strategy, the tactics would have been

entirely different. We were our hands

were tied in so far as actually uh

hitting the enemy from in his bases. Now

he used those bases of course as

sanctuaries and he could choose the time

and the place of attack out of them. And

this is a tremendous advantage on the

battlefield. And even after we defeated

him, as we did several times, we were

not un we were not able to follow him

across those borders, either the DMZ or

into Laos and uh to defeat him like we

could have done.

You think we wouldn't be fighting up

there today had you been allowed to go?

I honestly believe that we could have

destroyed the enemy's capability to

carry on this war as early as

1967 if we had have been allowed to to

go in and destroy his bases and his uh

fighting capability. Given your

confidence in Arvin in the forces of

South Vietnam, do you think it's on the

cards that they will invade the North?

If we get out of there completely, say

two or three years from now and the

North continues to attack South Vietnam,

uh I would think that an invasion of

North Vietnam by them a few years from

now uh would be possible. I know that

the South Vietnamese are getting awfully

tired of sitting back and waiting for

the North Vietnamese to choose the time

and place of battle. And it I say it's a

terrible handicap to them.

to answer the question that's posed in

the this broadcast tonight. Can they

hack it?

I think there's no question. Well, in in

my mind, there's no question about what

the South Vietnamese can hack it. Yes,

it should perhaps be pointed out that

for General Walt to say anything else

would be to negate his most important

years of duty as a gallant and loyal

officer. The fact is that at this

moment, the United States has assembled

in Southeast Asia, the most powerful and

deadly air strike force ever assembled

anywhere, and it is being used to

maintain the integrity of South Vietnam.

But airplanes cannot hold ground. The

old-fashioned foot soldier must do that.

And so far, the South Vietnamese have

shown that without massive American

firepower, they are not the masters of

their own land.

The date August 4th,

1964. For most people, it triggers no

particular emotion. It's no December

7th,

1941. But August 4th is important

whether you remember the date or not. It

was on that date in the Gulf of Tonken

off the coast of North Vietnam that the

American war in Vietnam really began.

And the incident that began it has

become as controversial as the war

itself. The US destroyers Maddox and

Turner Joy were attacked by communist

torpedo boats. Or were they? It's now 6

years and 7 months since the Tonkin

incident and the Tonkin resolution. The

incident produced the resolution and the

resolution was quite simple. It gave the

president the right to protect American

troops in Vietnam with whatever means he

felt necessary. the power to prevent

further aggression by North Vietnam and

to prevent South Vietnam from falling to

the

communists. Few people at the time

thought it would take more than six

years and almost 45,000 dead Americans

and more to achieve those ends. Boys who

were 12 years old that August died last

week in Vietnam.

Let's go back to August 4th and the US

destroyers Maddox and Turnerjoy and try

to find out what happened that night in

the Gulf of Tonken. In July of 1964,

units of the seventh fleet were

patrolling the South China Sea off the

coast of Vietnam. The United States was

not at war with North Vietnam, but it

was helping South Vietnam with massive

economic and military aid. Then this is

what happened. According to the

Pentagon's official reenactment narrated

by Chad Huntley,

on August 2nd, the United States Navy

destroyer Maddox on patrol in

international waters of the Gulf of

Tonkan begins to track three unknown

craft approaching from the

northwest. They are identified as North

Vietnamese PT boats armed with torpedoes

and 37 mm guns. When warnings from the

Maddox fail to stop the oncoming PT

boats, she opens fire.

The Maddox joined by the destroyer Sea

Turner Joy resumes its routine patrol.

But the next night, the men on watch and

the two destroyers once again detect

unidentified contacts on radar. The

attack by the North Vietnamese boats is

renewed. After a three-hour running

battle in which two of the PT boats are

sunk, the attackers break contact.

There was no argument about the first

fight. Sunday afternoon, August 2nd, it

happened. The Maddox against three North

Vietnamese PT boats. Something like this

painting that hangs in the Maddox

wardroom. The North Vietnamese said the

Maddox invaded their waters and they

chased her out. The United States said

the Maddox was in neutral waters, that

although the Maddox fired first, it was

in self-defense when the North

Vietnamese PT boats were about to

attack.

We're fairly sure all three PT boats

were hit and none of the torpedoes hit

the Maddox, but the Maddox very likely

was hit. There was a bullet hole up

there in the aft gun director. It was

repaired later and painted over. No sign

of it today. But two nights later, the

night of the controversial battle, the

Medics did not take any damage or suffer

any losses, which is but one of many

reasons why Senate investigators now

believe there never was any battle that

night. The Maddox and Turner Joy

reported they were ambushed at the

beginning of the evening by perhaps five

or six torpedo boats, but that wound

down by midnight to perhaps one boat

with two torpedoes. And yet the

destroyers reported a total of 22

torpedoes fired at them. They were doing

a lot of firing themselves. Some people

say they were firing at

phantoms. The North Vietnamese always

said they were never there, that it was

simply an excuse to get into the war.

The officer in charge of the destroyer

division, which included the Maddox and

the Turner Joy, was on board the Maddox

that night. He's Captain John Herrick.

Anapapolis 1943 still on active duty. We

asked him to return to the Maddox, now a

training ship, and recall the confusing

events of August 4th,

1964. Well, I think the uncertainty is

due to the fact that it was night, it

was dark, and uh we didn't really

eyeball these boats. This would we did

have witnesses, eyeball witnesses on the

on the Turn of Joy. Uh I consider them

dependable witnesses. However, uh there

are people that still doubt that what

they saw was boats. I do not. We had

sensors

who cited

the boats on radar. We had sonar that

picked up uh noise spokes in the water.

We had visual sightings. I think the

preponderance of evidence, any judge in

a courtroom uh would have to accept our

witness evidence and our sensor

evidence, radar and sonar, and uh the

only conclusion uh a logical man could

reach was that we were attacked.

Just above the bridge of the Maddox,

where Captain Heric was, is the main gun

director. And inside the director was

the sailor who was in charge of firing

those powerful 5-in guns. His job was to

open fire once the enemy targets were

spotted on radar or sonar. Those are the

main methods for detecting targets you

can't see directly. The man in charge of

the main gun director, August 4th, 1964,

was a four-year veteran. He was also an

expert sonar man, Patrick Park. Park is

now a businessman in Los Angeles. Tell

me, do you think that night, August 4th,

in the pitch black in a heavy

swell,

rainstorms, was there anything to shoot

at out there? No, I don't. I'm certain

that there was not anything to shoot at

right from the beginning. The captain

asked me immediately after the attack to

go down and evaluate all the recordings

that had been made of uh noise that was

that sonar was reporting. And uh I kept

myself pretty busy for the next three

days really uh trying to evaluate these

things and determine if we had heard

anything that might have been even a

question mark that it might have been a

torpedo or anything else in the water

not related to the two ships or noise of

either one of them. And what was your

evaluation?

Absolutely nothing. Well, Park uh has

the right to his own opinions, of

course, and uh I do not uh concur with

him, but he has a right to those

opinions. Three decks below the main

deck and locked under the water line is

the Maddox sonar room. Here, on the

night of August 4th, as the noise of the

big guns roared around them overhead,

the Maddox sonar men listened for

underwater sounds of approaching

torpedoes, trying to separate torpedo

noises from their own ship's noise.

Captain Herrick would later describe the

sonar man's reports as

overeager. The sailor on the sonar

console that night was David Malow of

Jel, New Mexico. Dave Malow is still in

the Navy, still a sonar man at the Fleet

School in Key West, Florida. What

happened? We were attacked. Torpedoes

were in the

water. What I presume were torpedoes. I

don't know how they can say that there

wasn't a torpedo. When I heard it, the

Turner Joyce saw it and then they're

going to turn around and say there

wasn't

one. Like I say, I'm I'm certain in my

mind that there was an attack. Below

Patrick Park in the main gun director,

below Captain Heric on the bridge, below

them both is the combat information

center and radar room. Here, the job was

to find enemy targets coming back by way

of radar signals, ending up as blips on

this television screen. One of the men

running radar the night of August 4th,

1964 was James Stanovitz, a four-year

veteran. He's a civilian now and lives

in Stevens Point, Wisconsin. The only

doubt I have is not to whether there was

an attack or not, I know there was, but

as to where the attack came from. In

other words, we were steaming in a

southerntherly direction and we picked

up the contacts off of our port side,

which would be on the east side of us.

North Vietnam was on the west side of

us, which meant that those ships that

were out there, torpedo boats or

whatever, and they definitely were there

were coming from either lying in wait

for us out there or coming from the

island which is a possession of red

China and they proceeded to close us.

Then we started having difficulty with

uh radar where our

radar would pick up intermittently and

where we even had a hard time of keeping

track of the Turner Joy. Just how hard a

time the Maddox's head spotting its

sister ship the Turner Joy that night is

a memory that Patrick Park will never

lose. Park in charge of the 5-in guns up

in the main gun director had been

getting target calls from the radar room

throughout the night, but he wouldn't

fire because he could not see the

targets on his own radar. Then around

midnight, he got the fetest target of

the evening. So, we get the word to open

fire and at the same time, I realize

that that's the other ship. And that's

the turn of joy. That's correct. The

radar operator also realized this and

both of us say simultaneously, that's a

turn of joy.

So instead of opening fire as the word

came down, all three of them about the

same time. That's the Turner Joy open

fire. Let's just go down to these two

models here. We had a good broadsiz shot

of the Turner Joy right like this as far

away. Well, let's say 1500 yards

distance

here. But

uh and of course all of our uh 5-in guns

pointed and ready to be fired at her. So

uh re radio requested information from

the turn of joy and they had lost

contact on us quite a while back also it

seems. So uh then the captain asked the

turn of joy to turn on the running

lights and in doing so I looked in the

gun site there or

the site that I have and there she was

right in the crosshairs right on her.

Best contact we had all night. What

would have happened had you obeyed that

order to fire?

Well, we wouldn't have missed. That's

about all I can say for it. We would

have got her. If confusion abounded

during combat, mystery surrounded the

black box. It had been brought aboard

along with 16 electronic specialists

when the manx stopped at Taiwan a few

days before the battle of Tonkin. The

box was actually gray in color, but the

men called it the black box. It was

placed between the smoke stacks on the

medics and was removed after the battle.

There's been an unending argument about

what the black box was for, but it did

contain sophisticated electronic

instruments. Captain Herrick confirmed

to us what had long been surmised. One

of the things the black box was for was

to intercept North Vietnamese messages,

and those intercepts were proof enough

that the North Vietnamese had attacked.

One of the controversial things in this

whole affair is are those intercepts. Uh

the intercepts were made by uh our black

box which I was not acquainted with

inside. It did not feel that I had the

need to know what they were doing. I

merely used the product of what they

produced and they did produce messages

that warned me that uh we were being

attacked. the North Vietnamese who

openly

admit the events of August 2nd and in

fact would probably concur with your

description of it. They say nothing

happened the night of the

fourth. But I had uh messages presented

to me which were there reports of damage

to boats that attacked us that night

on the night of the fourth. On the night

of the fourth as a result of your fire.

as a result of our fire. Well, tell me

more about that. Well, that's all I

that's all I know. We had intercept

reports that told us that they had

suffered damage that night. Senator

Fulbright and his committee, however,

were not persuaded by the blackbox

intercepts. They were more interested in

what Secretary McNamera told them four

years later that the black box had been

used, in his words, to stimulate North

Vietnamese and Chinese communist radar,

a means of pinpointing their radar

installations. But Captain Herrick says

this was not so. I would say that uh we

had no way of stimulating North

Vietnamese radar. This is uh not

electronically feasible. We had no

equipment to do any such thing.

The Johnson administration concealed

from the American people the truth about

what the Maddox was doing in the Gulf of

Tonkan. The Maddox was a spy ship.

Former Senator Wayne Morris of Oregon.

Morris and former Senator Ernest

Greening were the only two men in the

entire Congress of the United States who

voted against the Tonkin Gulf

resolution. She'd lost all of her

characteristic as a as a naval destroyer

as far as international law was

concerned. She had the appearance of a

destroyer if you didn't uh check her spy

equipment, but she was a spy ship.

Intelligent mission. I wouldn't call it

a spy mission. This was a ship equipped

with the normal uh equipment that a

destroyer normally carries and

uh was equipped also with uh the black

box as it has been called since then. Uh

but uh not a spy mission in uh in that

sense. I don't like the word spy

mission. It was an intelligence mission,

a information gathering mission. Would

it be accurate to compare the Maddox's

mission in the Gulf of Tonkin with the

PBLO's mission off North Korea? I'm not

aware of the uh equipment on the PBLO or

how she was equipped, but I would say

that uh she was much better equipped for

this type of thing than the uh Maddox,

which was a ship of the line, not

designed for that sort of thing. She'd

been taken weeks before the Gulf of

Tonkan incidents to Taiwan and fitted

out as one of the top spy ships of the

United States Navy and the

administration never let that important

fact out in their testimony before the

Foreign Relations Committee. Had they

even let that much out, the resolution

never would have come out of the

committee. What was the specific mission

that night?

Well, her Pacific uh uh mission was to

stimulate the electronic instruments of

North Vietnam so that the United States

could find out what the North Vietnamese

military plans were. And that's what she

did. And she went into the national

waters of North Vietnam. Oh, the

administration said she didn't because

she never went in the three-mile limit.

But we knew that North Vietnam claimed a

12mi limit. And we recognized a 12mi

limit for China and North Korea. And if

we wanted to dispute whether or not they

were entitled to a three-mile limit, you

know where we should have been? Before

the Security Council of the United

Nations, not acting

unilaterally as an aggressor nation. You

know why we didn't go before the

Security Council? We'd have lost. And

the administration knew it. We weren't

looking for a peaceful out for we

intended to make war. The doubts about

what happened August 4th, 1964 have

weighed heavily on the senator who was

President Johnson's principal ally in

steering the Tonkin Gulf resolution

through the Senate. Jay William

Fulbright, chairman of the Foreign

Relations Committee. He spent many of

the next six years trying to repeal the

resolution. I personally am convinced in

my own mind that no attack took place on

the 4th. But of course, it's impossible

really in a way for me to prove a

negative. I'll put it this way. They

most certainly did not prove the

affirmative case that there was an

attack.

But on the night of August 4th, 1964,

hardly anyone doubted Defense Secretary

Robert McNamera's official version.

McNamera, now president of the World

Bank, declined an invitation to recall

the events of Tonkin Gulf on this

broadcast. But he left office in March

1968 unshaken in his contention that two

US destroyers had been illegally and

deliberately attacked while on normal

routine patrol somewhere near the middle

of Tonkin Gulf. Senator Fulbright

disagrees. If

one telegram, which we later found from

Commander Heric or the Maddox had been

made available to the committee at that

time, I'm quite sure they would have had

long hearings, gone into it thoroughly,

and if they'd been able to discover the

facts as they actually were, I don't

believe it passed the resolution because

it was based upon absolutely false,

erroneous information. The events as

they related them of August the 4th 1964

were not true. Our ships were it was not

an unprovoked deliberate attack. In fact

is there was no attack at all. Secretary

McNamera in his briefing to the nation

and the Congress never mentioned that

message from Captain Heric which came in

right after the night battle of August

4th. Review of action makes many

recorded contacts and torpedoes fired

appear doubtful. Freak weather effects

and overeager sonar man may have

accounted for many reports. No actual

visual sightings by Maddox suggest

complete evaluation before any further

action. Other things McNamera left out

or didn't know or touched on too lightly

were warnings from various commanders in

the Pacific. They warned that North

Vietnam regarded the Maddox as an enemy

who was helping the South Vietnamese

patrol boats shell the North. The

shellings had occurred just before the

Maddox reached Tonken Gulf. On July

31st, the South Vietnamese used four

patrol boats like these, which the US

Navy had just given them to hit these

two North Vietnamese islands. Hanme 3

miles from the North Vietnam mainland

and Han New 4 miles from the mainland.

It was the first shelling of North

Vietnam of its kind and they held the

United States as responsible as the

South Vietnamese and this was known to

the naval command because the black box

whatever else it was doing was

intercepting North Vietnamese

communications. Early Sunday morning,

August 2nd, Captain John Herrick,

division commander aboard the Maddox

sent his first warning to the Seventh

Fleet.

Heric to seventh fleet. Consider

continuence of patrol presents an

unacceptable

risk. Seventh fleet to Maddox. When

considered prudent, resume itinerary. In

other words, take care of yourself, but

stay there. You were concerned even

though you hadn't cited a torpedo boat

yet. Well, we were threatened uh that

night by concentrations of

junks which uh made us believe that we

were uh unwelcome in that area. We did

avoid them and proceed to the east until

we avoided the concentration of junks

and then continued with our patrol. That

afternoon, Sunday, August 2nd, 1964, the

first battle of Tonken Gulf. The medics

fired first. warning shots, the Pentagon

said. And from the nearby carrier,

Ticonderoga, Navy planes attacked the PT

boats. North Vietnam said they had

chased the Maddox out of their waters

and warned America to stay away. In

Washington, the president went to church

with Mrs. Johnson and set a soothing

tone for the nation. The next day, the

president ordered the Turner Joy to join

the Maddox and if attacked, to destroy

the attacking

force. from fleet commander. In view of

Maddox's incident, consider it our best

interest that we assert right of freedom

of the seas and resume Gulf of Tonkin

patrol

earliest. That same message to Captain

Heric told him that his CPA, his closest

point of approach to the coastline of

North Vietnam, would be 8 nautical miles

and his closest point of approach to the

North Vietnamese islands would be four

nautical miles.

And from Task Force 77 steaming in the

South China Sea, a most somber

warning. It is apparent that DRV, North

Vietnam, has thrown down the gauntlet

and now considers itself at war with the

United States. It is felt they will

attack US forces on site with no regard

to cost. US ships in Gulf of Tonkin can

no longer assume that they will be

considered neutrals exercising the right

of free transit.

Sinkpack, commander-in-chief Pacific to

Maddox, patrol will A clearly

demonstrate our determination to

continue these operations. B possibly

draw North Vietnamese Navy patrol boats

northward away from area of 34A ops.

What were we really doing there that

night?

Well, we were protecting uh operation

34A. Operation 34A was an operation uh

that's its code name whereby South

Vietnamese patrol boats bombarded two

North Vietnamese islands and two

security posts on the mainland of North

Vietnam on two two different nights. My

suspicion was that the Maddox was a

decoy ship. And that's exactly what she

was. This is what the Secretary of

Defense said. Our Navy played absolutely

no part in was not associated with was

not aware of any South Vietnam

actions. Well, now let me point out how

he concealed the facts. He didn't even

tell us about the message that the Joint

Chiefs of Staff had sent out of the

Pentagon building to the commander of

the Pacific about Operation 34A. You

mean to tell me that the Secretary of

Defense didn't know about that? Early in

the morning of August 4th, the black box

on the Maddox intercepts a North

Vietnamese message and a warning goes

out from Captain Heric to the fleet.

Maddox to fleet evaluation of info from

various sources indicates North Vietnam

considers patrol directly involved with

34A ops. North Vietnam considers United

States ships present as enemies because

of these operations.

Was it also your function in Tonken to

possibly withdraw

uh enemy resistance from South

Vietnamese commando hitand-run raids

that were happening that night off the

coast coastal islands of North Vietnam?

Not to our knowledge, Morty. We had no

uh this was not included in our briefing

and uh if it happened, it happened. But

uh this was not the mission that we were

sent up there to do. Could it be indeed

that you were part of operation 34A of

the South Vietnamese commando raids that

were happening from the south without

even knowing it? No possibility. No, no

connection. This was an entirely

separate operation and would have been

conducted regardless of whether there

were 34 alpha ops as they were called.

Whether Heric knew it or not, on the

night of August 3rd, the night before,

the South Vietnamese Navy, again using

American supplied patrol boats, raided

the mainland of North Vietnam, Operation

34A. It was the first time the mainland

had been shelled, and the North

Vietnamese blamed the Americans. The

Battle of Tonkin Gulf took place the

night of August 4th, Tonkin

time. It was 12 hours earlier in

Washington. President Johnson talked to

his aids many times during the day. One

of them was McGeorge Bundy, the

president's adviser on national

security. Bundy, now president of the

Ford Foundation, declined an invitation

by 60 Minutes to recall that day in the

White House. The president reached his

decision early. He would bomb North

Vietnam. The president was assured an

attack had taken place even though

Captain Heric on board the medics still

had his doubts. Heric

cabled. Entire action leaves many doubts

except for apparent attempted ambush at

beginning suggest thorough

reconnaissance in daylight by

aircraft. And at 1:30 a.m. the message

we have already seen, the message that

Senator Fulbright later said could have

changed history. It showed Captain Heric

even more

doubtful. Review of action makes many

recorded contacts and torpedoes fired

appear doubtful. Freak weather effects

and overeager sonar man may have

accounted for many reports. No actual

visual sightings by Maddox suggest

complete evaluation before any further

action.

But the White House and the Pentagon and

Pacific headquarters kept pressing

Captain Heric for absolute certainty

immediately. At 2:45 a.m. Tonkin time,

Heric to headquarters, details of action

present a confusing picture, although

certain that original ambush was

bonafideed.

Your original messages

to the

Pentagon to

Washington did leave some doubt. Is that

correct? They were intended to I wanted

uh to have a little time to interview

the CEO of the Maddox and the Turner Joy

and to accumulate the information

necessary to arrive at a logical

conclusion to what had happened that

night. And after that information was in

and I verified my previous reports and

uh stated that I definitely felt that we

had been attacked that night. It's also

been suggested that Washington was

putting a great deal of pressure on you

to come up with some positive answers to

what happened that night. A positive

answer being yes, we were attacked. I'm

sure they needed one and that's what we

were trying to obtain for them and we

did and uh sent it in. By 6:00 that

evening in Washington, President Johnson

had given the final gullahhead for the

bombing of North Vietnam. After that,

the president called the leaders of

Congress to the White House to tell

them. They were unanimously behind him.

The president asked them for a

resolution of support. But a resolution

had already been drafted weeks before at

the State Department to give the

president power to take any action to

repel aggression and save South Vietnam.

Again, 100% backing from the leaders of

both parties. And yet, while seventh

fleet pilots were preparing to attack,

the Pentagon was still pressing the

commander-in-chief in the Pacific,

Admiral Sharp, to press Captain Heric on

the Maddox to, in McNamera's words, make

damn sure there had been an attack.

Admiral Sharp to Heric. One, can you

confirm absolutely that you were

attacked? Two, can you confirm sinking

of PT boats? Three, Desire replied

directly with supporting

evidence. Captain Heric's final report

shortly after 8:00 p.m. Washington time.

He still had doubts. Maddox scored no

known hits and never positively

identified a boat. No known damage or

personnel casualties to either ship.

Turner Joy claims sinking one boat and

damaging another. The first boat to

close Maddox probably fired torpedo at

Maddox which was heard but not seen. All

subsequent Maddox torpedo reports were

doubtful in that it is supposed that

sonar man was hearing ship's own

propeller beat. Now ladies and gentlemen

the president but by now it's all

academic. President Johnson goes on

television shortly before midnight to

announce the bombing of North Vietnam.

The next day at the United Nations,

Ambassador Adlay Stevenson explains

American actions and calls for world

support. Two days later, Congress passes

the Tonkin resolution. It gives the

president authority to take America deep

into Vietnam and open war without a

declaration of war. The president would

later refer to the Tonkin Gulf

resolution as his authority for the

actions he took in Vietnam.

He told Walter Kankite last winter that

there were unknown risks in an actual

declaration of war on North Vietnam. I

didn't ask for a declaration of war

because I didn't know what treaty

China might have with North Vietnam or

Russia might have with North Vietnam.

The communists have these agreements

among themselves. And if we declared war

against North Vietnam, that might

automatically declare war against China

and bring them in, trigger the thing, or

the Soviet Union. The president, you

remember, was in the midst of a campaign

for the presidency. His platform was,

"I'm against the widening of the war."

He used to say in his speeches, "I am

not about to send American boys to Asia

to fight the battles that Asian boys

should fight." And similar statements.

Barry Goldwater was supposed to be the

the wararmonger and the hulk. And this

is one reason I was taken in. I was

supporting the idea of Johnson. So the a

declaration of war is is the opposite of

what this was represented to be. This

was a a resolution to prevent a

war. Now I think if he'd come in for a

war, the country would have been

shocked. I don't think they had any idea

going to war in this way. But I didn't

want any doubt about the American

Congress. anyone served in Congress 25

years as I had served in Congress wasn't

about to undertake the responsibilities

and the dangers that I had in South

Vietnam without the Congress being with

me. And the Congress was with me before

that resolution went up. Every single

man in that room recommended it and

advocated it.

But when the going got hard, when the

road got longer and dustier, when the

casualties started coming in, why they

certain folks started looking for the

seller and they a good many of them

have. And I don't question

uh their right to do

so. Uh I I don't even criticize them uh

for taking that position uh if that's

what their conscience dictates. But I

just wish their conscience been

operating when they were making all

these other decisions because Congress

gave us this

authority in August

1964 to do whatever may be necessary.

That's pretty far

reaching. That's the sky is the limit.

At the time I referred to it as another

sinking of the main

suggesting

well you know what the best historical

advice is in regard to the sinking of

the main. It was a deliberate act on the

part of the United States to have an

excuse to go to war against Spain. The

Gulf of Tonkan was an a deliberate

aggressive act on the part of the

Johnson administration to justify making

war against North Vietnam. 3 weeks after

the Tonkin incident, the medics put into

Sububi Bay in the Philippines.

Investigators from the Pentagon came

aboard and interrogated most of the

crew. Testimony only of those who

thought they had seen enemy action was

later presented to the Fulbright

Committee. No testimony from those who

thought nothing was there. Former

Senator Wayne Morse. Well, don't pay any

attention to what the military says

after the fact to make a case before the

fact. Uh if you rely upon the American

military for credibility uh then you're

easy prey. Another Pentagon report

investigated how the top military

commanders handled the Tonken incident.

The Fulbright committee asked to see

that report but was refused. The report

is still secret but a former assistant

defense secretary remembers what it

said. Paul Warkey. As far as the facts

are concerned, I think it's pretty clear

that there was an attack on the American

destroyers. Now, the attack was nothing

as dramatic as blowing up the battleship

Maine, but nonetheless, the proof

indicated that an attack occurred. So,

that what people are questioning now is

really the validity of our entire

Vietnamese involvement. Were we waiting

for an incident at the time?

Oh, I would say trying to reconstruct

history that probably we were on the

alert for the kind of provocation that

would lead us to react. Yes. And the

Tonkan Gulf incident just provided the

trigger for an American response that

would have occurred in any event at some

point in history. American involvement,

it seems to me, was not precipitated by

the Tonkan Gulf incident. It has just

come to characterize a policy which many

of us have concluded since was a mistake

of judgment.

In January, Congress finally repealed

the Tonken Gulf resolution. Senator

Fulbright's argument was the resolution,

like any other contract based on

misrepresentation, was null and void.

Was the resolution based on

misrepresentation? We may never know.

The fullbread committee dropped its

investigation in 1968 and never came up

with a final definitive report. Some

have questioned, is that the way to run

an

investigation? But more important about

the Tonken incident, is that the way a

great nation goes to war? Unfortunately,

yes. History is studded with debatable,

even trifling incidents that triggered

great wars. And now again, the Tonken

Gulf incident and the Indo-China War.

It's a question that the Congress and

the country is debating today. 6 and a2

years later, at least a million

Indo-Chinese dead, 300,000 American

wounded,

44,631 American dead, and more to come.

The tunnels of Coochie were probably the

Vietkong's most effective strategic

weapon in its 30 years of war against

the French, the government of South

Vietnam, and the United States. The

tunnels of Coochie is also the title of

a book soon to be published. It's by two

Englishmen who became intrigued with the

labyrinth of tunnels that reached right

into Saigon that were burrowed beneath

the field headquarters of American

units. Equally intriguing were the

handful of Americans who volunteered to

try to root out those tunnels who went

down to find the enemy. Eye to eye

warfare. They called themselves the

tunnel rats. If courage is grace under

stress, then what those men demonstrated

was grace under stress

underground. Their battleground was the

dirtiest part of the dirtiest war this

country has ever fought. When they were

fighting it, few of them realized how

extensive it was. Hundreds of miles of

intersecting tunnels, mostly the width

of a small man's body, but widening out

to contain field hospitals and theaters.

The most important were at Coochi, smack

under the headquarters of the US 25th

Division. The Vietkong commander of the

Coochie tunnels was Nuen Tan Lynn. He

lived and fought underground for 5

years. After the war, he took the BBC on

a tour of his tunnels.

This was the underground headquarters of

the vice chief of the entire Saigon

military

area. The 25th and the first division

were losing men to snipers who seemed to

melt into the earth. And so was formed

or improvised a unit calling itself the

tunnel rats. On the eve of the 10th

anniversary of the end of the war, we

invited six of them to recall their war.

They are Herbert Thornton, Bernie

Justin, Jack Flowers, Major Randy Ellis,

Bill Pelffrey, and Pedro Reho, who was

born in Cuba. All of them were

volunteers. All of them used to

routinely descend into something

approaching hell. What kind of man does

it take to be did it take to be a tunnel

rat?

Very simplistically, it took a man that

was long on and short on brains.

That's what it took. That's a pretty

damn good definition. He just had to

have the will to want to do it because

the minute when he was no longer a

volunteer where you had to tell him to

get down there and do it, you just let

him get rid of him because he'd stick

his hand head underground and say,

"Well, it only goes 10 ft." And uh if he

didn't want to get underground anymore,

he was no more good to you. It was a

oneon-one situation. It was you versus

the enemy and you had to go in head

first. Correct. Always. Never never feet

first anywhere. Risky business. So you

had to have somebody on on on your feet

when you went to Always went in with

your hands out in front of you, too,

because if you got your arms trapped to

your side, you were stuck there. You

were just there, period. If you didn't

get your arms through first, you you

couldn't get out.

What did you find apart from Vietkong?

What did you find down there? I came

across one time a trip wire that was

located in the tunnel and it led to a

box that was at the side of the tunnel

that had been carved out and in that box

was about uh oh 10 or 15 very angry

scorpion spiders. Another there was a

like a a bamboo snake. We found this a

couple of times where they actually had

the snake tied to a piece of bamboo that

was stuck into the top of a tunnel. It's

probably been tied up there for three or

four days. And that viper will strike at

whatever comes through. It could hit you

in the in the neck or in the face. And

of course, that's the fastest place of

the heart. It's very natural type of

booby trap that they used to. You used

to go down there alone, right, sir? I

used to go there alone. Why? I I was

trying to show them in a way that you uh

by me being alone that I was not afraid

of them. I was not afraid at all. They

didn't scare me one bit. I was worried

about the snakes. That scares me. But

you were worried more about that what

the enemy being inside the tunnel.

You almost talk as if you enjoyed the

work. I did. I did very much time. In

fact,

uh many time it was argument between the

teams about who are going to go in

first.

and Mayor Ellis had to get involved in

it because of it. Pete would have gone

every time if I'd have let him, but uh I

also had the other tunnel rats to

contend with. Let let me ask you a tough

question,

Pete. Did you enjoy killing?

Did I enjoy killing? I enjoy doing my

job. That I did. That was my job. I was

going down there to destroy him. I was

going down there. I wasn't going to

bring no prisoner out. Not in two feet,

one and three feet high. I can't do

that.

Uh I figure the more I destroy it, then

the better off it be. How did you feel

about not taking prisoners? Major, the

entire time I was a tunnel rat, we never

took a prisoner underground. We were

unsuccessful in uh in

uh trying to talk them out of the

tunnel. They would not come. But Herbert

Thornton, four years earlier in

different tunnels, had a different

experience. I got 54 people out. at one

crack. But I didn't know there was 54

people. All I could see was the one guy

was eye to eye with me in the tunnel and

I'm holding a 45 right under his nose

ready to blow him away and would have in

a second if he'd have made the wrong

move. But uh I backed him out and when

we backed him out we got 54 people. Did

men crack?

I

did at the end.

What happened? I went down a hole and

um it was almost guaranteed that there

was someone down there. And when I was

finally dropped at the bottom uh to

where the tunnel ent entrance would be,

I committed sort of the tunnel rat sin

as far as we were concerned and that was

to empty your empty your pistol. U and I

was certain at that time that I'd killed

the man face to face. Uh, I perceived

myself actually shooting this VC in the

eye, the cheek, the neck, and three or

four other places up here. And there

wasn't anything there at all. Uh, it was

just a figment of my imagination.

And I never will forget looking up at

the top and the the tunnel rats were

looking down at me and I was their

leader. I was the the rat six at the

time. had had decorations and had

basically a valorous career as Rat 6. It

was a honor to be the Rat

Six. And they knew that I'd killed

somebody otherwise I wouldn't have

emptied my gun. Uh but I'd had enough.

That was it. And basically the battalion

sort of got me out of the country right

away and I came back home. How were they

able to function underground? They were

in hospitals underground. They had a

tank underground. They had howitzers

underground. They had all kinds of

things. 500 lb aerial bombs that weren't

exploded. They took in there and chopped

them apart with a hatchet. That's right.

To make to make mines out of them. To

make mines out. Now, how did they lug

that 500 lb bomb through the water traps

and everything? I think they're in a way

they're analogous to ants. Ants can move

huge things to strange places

underground.

Generally, we were short of everything.

ammunition, medicines, the the

detonators and fuses you see here, the

mines. We took as much as we could from

the Americans rubbish. We even collected

their beer cans and made them into

grenades. I pulled a Singer sewing

machine out of one one time. Everybody

laughed. Old pedal job. You know, what

are they doing down there? They were

making gas masks.

Somebody was bringing them canvas and

stuff out of Saigon and they're down

there making gas masks. So when we'd use

a tear gas on them, they put their

little homemade mask on. Well, with

charcoal fill on, it'll work just as

good as one of them $200 ones. You know,

they had homemade gas mask. But uh an

Expedient is just a piece of gauze and

urinate on it and hold it over your

nose. Urine on a piece of gauze on a

piece of gauze and hold it over their

mouth. Virtually every tunnel uh that we

went in, in my experience, changed

levels at least two or three times. And

a level change then amounted to

something similar to an air lock. We

just could not apply enough pressure,

over pressure to force gas, CS gas or an

explosive gas all the way through any

sort of tunnel.

When our soldiers were wounded, we had

to keep them in the underground

shelters. Some spent as long as five or

six months down there. They would rather

be killed than wounded.

They didn't crave for food or drink, but

for a breath of fresh air above ground,

a glimpse of the sunlight. Did you find

bodies down there? Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

We uncovered 18 in just a small small

area. some very fresh one. Some of them

uh they they put them in a way so you

won't be able to go through them. Uh and

you don't want to move them because they

kill you. The bodies there of their own

men were booby trapped. That's right.

That's right. And a lot of them they

were very fresh and the smell and then

you seen uh when you got right on top of

it and you hit him with a flashlight,

you seen maggots growing out of the

mouth and to the eye through the nose

and section of the body when you crawl

through it. You picked off some of them

with you and you had used to go and just

ignore them. Just take them back out.

Just just take them out of your clothes

and keep on going. Don't move the body

because the body will be trapped.

Definitely.

We found bodies buried in tunnels quite

a few times, but you only report it once

cuz some intelligence officers going to

tell you to dig him out and see what

killed him. That's right. You would be

amazed at just how sharp your senses

become when you're in that tunnel. uh

your sense of hearing is so acute you

you could hear if there was someone else

in the tunnel you could hear him

breathing and you would be able to hear

whether he was crawling towards you or

away from you away from you or heap and

if you heard someone crawling you

hopefully he was crawling away from you

but there was barely room for you for

your shoulders you couldn't get there

was no room to maneuver absolutely not

that's right no room to maneuver if uh

if you came under fire. Um, it's it's

like you're in a shooting

gallery. There's no place for you to go.

There was a hot tunnel. We had we'd

already lost two men and I eventually

went point. Um, and I had been fired at

going through. And I came to the

trapoor, moved it up, turned it on its

beveled side, and took a very deep

breath. The thing hadn't blown up yet,

so there was no booby trap on it. Uh,

and I was watching it with my flashlight

and my pistol, and the trap door moved

by itself and sat back down in its uh,

seat. Uh, and I hadn't touched it, so

someone was right

there. I took another deep breath. The

next thing I realized, the trap door

opened again, and there was a hand

grenade right in my face, and it fell

right onto my body. He made a very big

mistake. He gave me 5 seconds to get

away. Had he pulled the pin, let go of

the handle, and counted to three, I

wouldn't be sitting here today. Um,

later that day, that man died because of

that mistake that he made. And uh, who

killed him?

One of my men.

What did you dread most about going down

there? I dreaded being buried alive down

there. that I wasn't afraid of getting

shot down there or getting knifed down

there, but I really hated to think about

getting buried down there. There's

always that nagging sense in the back of

your mind that if there's some major

explosion to your rear or the tunnel

collapses behind

you and you're there and you're buried.

Tell me, when you flushed out a tunnel,

took

prisoners, killed some people, was that

the end of the active life of that

tunnel? You only own that piece of

ground while you stood on it. Soon as

you moved out of the area, Charlie moved

right back into it. That was this type

of war. We would uh attempt to destroy

as much of the tunnel as we could, but

uh invariably they'd find some way of

either just bypassing that section of

the tunnel, uh dig it back out. It's

it's it's like trying to get rid of an

antill. There's an officer in Hawaii

still in the army, Colonel Rat, who to

this day cannot talk about the tunnels.

He says

he can't

articulate. He still has horrible

nightmares. There's not a day or a night

that goes by that I don't think I dream

about it. All of you. It's never left me

ever. About the first six months I come

back, I was shaky. I mean, somebody had

slam his door or something and I'd about

hit the ground.

You know, it's it's strange. So little

is

known has been written or reported even

about this part of the war. And yet I

dare say it had been another war, there

would have been movies made about you

guys, heroic novels written.

Do you

feel forgotten? I'm glad to be here with

all my comrades. We we share a certain

uh bond that I don't think anybody else

uh that has not done that or shared that

experience can ever feel. But

uh I harbor no bitterness. There's uh I

don't feel anybody owes me anything.

But the war was not fought by people

like me. It was fought by, you know, a a

much different class of people, the

underprivileged, you know, blacks. Uh,

it was a it was a war that was not

fought by white Anglo-Saxon Protestants.

And to this day, I don't think that

the the government doesn't own owe me

anything, but I think it owes something

to a lot of those people that never had

the opportunity to go back to rebuild

their lives. Um, and I would hope that,

you know, things like this that we're

doing right here brings an awareness to

the country that there are people that

are still out there that need some help.

Do you need help? Not anymore.

Molly Safer reports tonight from Mili 4,

the hamlet where Lieutenant William

Kelly and the men of Charlie Company

made their sweep that March day three

years ago. This is Moley's Reququum for

Mi. There are no memorials in Mili 4.

If they didn't take you to it, you

wouldn't know there was ever a hamlet

there. But it's not a ghost place. By

day, there is more life than death in Mi

4. Around the hamlet, the women and the

old men tend the rice patties. But they

do not stay there anymore. At night,

Mili 4 is given back to the dead.

[Music]

No one seems to know exactly where it

all happened that March day in

1968. The local militia men who provide

security and guide you in past the booby

traps say it was here, there, and

everywhere. A massacre is not an

organized thing. It's as confusing as

any big military operation.

You only happen on the graves of Mili

for cross a patch of fow ground. Wander

towards the remains of someone's house

and you find them. Random graves. Some

people of Mili for buried in the good

earth of Vietnam.

But aside from the graves and the rusted

tins of sea rations left behind by

Charlie Company, First Battalion, 20th

Infantry of the 11th Brigade of the

Americal Division, there is no Mi for

that part of Kangnai Province that we

vulgarized as Pinkville simply does not

exist.

How do you write about or describe a mi

without writing a pmic of one kind or

another? That there have been other mis.

We know that only the scale of death has

been smaller. That many thousands of

Vietnamese lives have been saved by very

ordinary Americans. We know that too. We

also know that one does not cancel out

the

other. So in trying to write a reququum

for mi, you face as many moral booby

traps as you do the very real ones that

still surround this

hamlet. A few hundred yards from Mili 4

is the refugee center of Tukong, a

resettlement area they call it. These

people have been brought in from

surrounding villages that are now free

fire zones. And the survivors of Mili 4

are here as well. Mili was a rich

hamlet, brick and concrete buildings.

They now live in grass hooches, military

for a Vietnamese home. And as you walk

the dusty track of Tukong, you wonder

what they must think. You look the same

as the men of Charlie Company. They

couldn't speak the language either. And

when you try to ask, you know you get

the answer they think you want to hear.

To people with names like Fu and Wen and

Nwen and Ree. Surely people with names

like Calli and Medina and Midlo and Coer

are the freaks or the gooks or the

dinks. Do they hate us, these people

from Mili? In Tukung, you have a hard

time believing the place ever existed.

One of those epic events, half myth, out

of another time that Vietnamese

storytellers like to relate.

But you know it happened somewhere down

that

crossroad. Do they

forgive? Do they understand the justice

of Fort Benning? Do they even remember

which one was Cali? Is there any

difference between the men with strange

names and strange faces and the

reporters who come to gaze on them

today?

In the refugee village of Tukkung these

days, you want to say something, maybe

apologize, but you feel it would take a

lifetime of teaching Western conscience

and Christian guilt to get the message

across. And even then, would it make any

difference? Would it explain the day the

people of Mili 4 were blown away?

President Bush says that he was shocked

and appalled by what American soldiers

did to Iraqi PS. Well, tonight meet an

American hero who says he felt the same

way more than 30 years ago in a

different American war in Vietnam. Hugh

Thompson was a helicopter pilot back in

1968 on a day American soldiers gunned

down more than 500 unarmed civilians in

a village called Mili. The dead were

women, old men, children, and even more

of them would have died if Thompson had

not confronted his fellow soldiers,

stopped their murderous rampage, and

airlifted a number of civilians to

safety. For years, the US military tried

to cover up the Mi massacre. And Hugh

Thompson was treated not as a hero, but

as a traitor.

But that all changed for Thompson one

night this past March at a special

ceremony in Nashville,

Tennessee. Captain retired UC Thompson

and his escort, Colonel retired Dr. Hal

Kushner.

It was a night he Thompson, the man on

the right, never dreamed would happen.

For years, he had been treated as an

outcast, a turncoat, because he had

dared to question his fellow American

GIS, who said that they were just

following

orders. But this night, at last, he was

being honored and inducted into an elite

fraternity, the Army Aviation Hall of

Fame. As an O23 pilot with the 123rd

Aviation Battalion, Chief Warrant

Officer U. Thompson flew over the

Vietnamese village of Mili on March the

16th of

1968 as US troops were killing

civilians.

That day back in 1968 was truly

barbaric. Young, inexperienced American

troops told by their leaders that Mili

was an enemy stronghold. Rounded up

civilians burned down their huts and

then shot hundreds of them down in cold

blood.

Hugh Thompson, believing at first it was

a legitimate combat operation, was

flying his small chopper over Mili that

day, trying to draw enemy fire away from

the American GIS on the ground. But

there was no enemy fire. And when he saw

the piles of bodies, he felt sick and

ashamed.

What happened was so shocking, so

inconceivable that we asked Thompson and

his gunner, Larry Coburn, to go back

with us to Vietnam and explain it all to

us for a 60-minute story in

1998. Thompson told us he landed his

chopper near a rice patty. And while his

crew covered him with M60 machine guns,

he managed to save some civilians from

being murdered. But he says he could not

stop others from being gunned down, even

after they'd been marched into this

ditch.

170 people were marched down in there.

Women, old men, babies, GI stood up on

the side with their weapons on full

automatic and machine gun fire. There

were no weapons captured. There were no

draft age males killed. They were

civilians. Ditch full of bodies. Yes,

sir. No, it was full, sir. Um, full of

blood. Yes, sir. Some of the people were

still they were dying. They weren't all

dead. As Thompson and Coburn were

recalling the horrors of that day for

us, an elderly woman walked toward us.

She said that she had been dumped in the

ditch back in 1968,

but had survived, shielded by the bodies

of the dead and the dying. Sorry we

couldn't help you that day.

Why, she wanted to know, were so many

villagers killed that day? And why was

Thompson different from the rest of the

Americans?

I I saved the people because I wasn't

taught to murder and

kill. I can't answer for the people who

took part in it. I apologize for the

ones who

did. I just wish we could have helped

more people that day. In fact, they did

help more people. Thompson and Coburn

found nine or 10 villagers cowering in a

bunker. They radioed for a couple of

choppers which airlifted all of them to

safety. And I'm so sorry.

and we managed to find two of the women

they'd saved.

Mrs. Nung, who was 73 at the time, was

43 when she was rescued. Mrs. Nong was

only six. You were very small then. You

were at the entrance. This is Larry.

This is Larry.

He was with me that day. They are two.

Didn't you take your life in your hands,

Hugh, when you got out and told the

American soldiers who had been

killing that they they better quit and

let these people get out of the bunker?

If you won't answer that, Larry, didn't

he? Yes, sir. He did. And he he didn't

even take a weapon with him. He he had a

sidearm. He didn't even have it drawn.

He just placed

himself in harm's

path. And I was thinking that

uh at that point anything could have

happened. And we watched Mr. Thompson go

to the bunker and

and bring the people out. There was

just, you know, no value whatsoever on

life. I reminded the two men about

another woman they tried to warn as they

hovered just above her in their chopper.

Yes, sir. Yes, sir. An army photographer

had taken her picture. We saw her in the

tall grass and I motioned for her to

stay

and so she crouched down but didn't I

was hoping she wouldn't be detected and

when we came back she was in this

condition.

There's a big difference between killing

and war and

murder.

Coldblooded murder. What do you call it

when you march a 100 or 200 people down

in a ditch and line up on the side with

machine guns and start firing into

it? Reminds me of another story that

happened in World War II, like the

Nazis.

Stunned by what he had seen that day,

Hugh Thompson reported back to his

superiors. But from the very beginning,

the US military tried to cover up the

massacre. And that was not all. Thompson

is uncomfortable talking about it. But

before the Hall of Fame ceremony in

Nashville, he and Larry Coburn told us

that the US military had stopped

providing him with adequate backup on

his chopper missions after Mili. You

kept flying missions, correct? Yes, sir.

And you kept attracting enemy fire. Uh

yes sir. He was placed in a very

precarious position uh as far as the

missions that he was carrying. What do

you mean precarious position? Well, he

didn't have adequate cover in in my

opinion. Um instead of being followed by

two armed gunships, he had another scout

helicopter. Scout helicopters are not

equipped with the powerful guns and

rockets carried by the larger Huey

gunships. It seemed like he was really

going out on a limb when he was going

out without adequate cover. And how many

choppers did you lose? I think three or

four, something like that. Four.

Actually, Thompson crashed a total of

five times. And the last time he broke

his back, why is none of this ever been

told before? I don't know. I just sort

of like went underground. I didn't

mention to anybody. Utopsson may have

clammed up, but word of what he had done

followed him when he returned from

Vietnam to the states. And he kept

paying a price for turning on his fellow

soldiers at MI. I've received death

threats uh over the phone. M anonymous

death threats. Yes, they don't believe

there. And we didn't have Colorado. Uh

but it was scary.

uh dead animals on your porch, mutilated

animals on your porch some mornings when

you get up. So, uh I was not a good guy.

You went to the officer's club and what'

they do? You know, be 100 people in

there after work and 5 minutes after I

was there, you know, it seemed like it

was me and the bartender left. Thompson

came in, they left the officers closed.

Yes, sir.

But this uh was

because the truth I don't think was out

there. Uh this was I was somebody that

was crying and whining about a few

people getting accidentally

killed. There was no accidental killing

that day. It was murder. But when Hugh

Thompson testified about those murders

to Congress in 1970, his testimony was

kept secret. They didn't want the story

out. No. About the massacre at NI. Well,

not when one of the senior congressmen

during these secret testimonies say, "If

anybody goes to jail that day, it'll be

that helicopter pilot." With the truth

hidden away, Hugh Thompson admits he

felt very much alone. And for years, he

remained silent about me. Lie. The

military meantime continued to give him

the cold shoulder. But that began to

change shortly after our story aired on

60 minutes. To begin with, the military

servicemies started inviting him to

visit and give lectures on military

ethics to young soldiers. Thompson began

to open up as he told those soldiers

unforgettable stories about MI. A lot of

the girls didn't scream too much because

they had already cut their tongues out.

Uh, and a bayonet can kill two real

quick if they're

pregnant. It got nasty that day. I

personally I

mean I wish I was a big enough man to

say I forgive him, but I swear to God I

can't. And you continue now to lecture

at West Point, lecture at the Naval

Academy,

trying to tell today's

troops what?

To be a soldier and uh act like a

soldier. The tide turned some more when

the Pentagon finally recognized Thompson

Coburn and Glenn Andrea, their crew mate

who died in Vietnam after Mili. All

three were awarded the prestigious

soldiers medal. But 30 years had passed

since the massacre and Thompson says it

was strangely unsatisfying, too late, he

says, from a reluctant military

leadership.

But he felt far different on the stage

in Nashville as he was inducted on the

first ballot into the Army Aviation Hall

of Fame. He and his crew spotted some

Vietnamese trying to hide. He landed and

with crewmen Larry Coburn and Glenn

Andreotti covering him, pulled out of

hiding nine people facing certain death

and evacuated them from the area.

This is a big one. Is the big one. Why?

This is my

peers electing me to put me in there.

This is my fellow aviators. That makes

me feel real good. Well, I'm proud. I

know you. Congratulations. Thank you,

sir.

Thank you, sir.

Once again, Christian Amanpor of CNN on

special assignment for 60

Minutes. Few things frighten the

civilized world as much as environmental

disasters like toxic spills and nuclear

accidents. And now concerned scientists

are looking into the possibility that

the United States, albeit inadvertently,

might have unleashed an environmental

disaster when it dumped huge amounts of

the defolian Agent Orange on

Vietnam. The reason the US dumped

millions and millions of gallons of

Agent Orange on South Vietnam was to

destroy thick jungle like this that

provided cover for the Vietkong and the

North Vietnamese army. The defoliant was

a thousand times stronger than weed

killer used in the United States. But

the American servicemen who sprayed it

and even bathed in it didn't know that

it also contained a deadly byproduct,

dioxin. Dioxin is the most toxic

man-made chemical of all, now known to

cause cancers, low IQs in children, and

at least one type of birth defect. But

until now, no one has studied what

happened in Vietnam, the site of the

biggest dioxin contamination in

[Applause]

history. A Canadian team of scientists

called the Hatfield Group is trying to

find out whether dioxin in Agent Orange

was as bad for the people here as it was

for the trees.

Tom Bovan heads the team. There very

well could be increased incidences of uh

birth defects or cancers or other

problems as a result of the agent orange

spring. What those exact statistics are,

whether it's 10 times or two times or

100 times, I don't know. I mean, I think

we need more data. Let's go. And that's

exactly what Bovan and his Vietnamese

partners will be fishing for today at

the bottom of the food chain. We're

going to collect some fish samples from

uh from these two ponds. Actually, they

look like a couple of old bomb craters.

Okay, that's the biggest grass carp we

ever got. According to the Hatfield

team, dioxin can be found in the fish,

especially around a former US military

base. Dioxin in these ducks is three

times the level that would close

commercial food production in the West.

Basically, it was use of chemicals in

warfare.

So, chemical warfare is a is a no no

these days. And uh no, nobody could ever

do that type of thing again. That's for

sure. But back then, millions of

American servicemen were exposed. They

too were sprayed by Agent Orange. One of

them was a 19-year-old drafty from

Michigan named Larry Lei. It got all

over you. It got all over everything.

And that's why we And then a few hours

later, everything it landed on was

green. Within a few hours is dead and

brown laid on the ground. And when you

saw the immediate effect it had on the

foliage, did you ever wonder what it did

to you? Not at that. Not at that time. I

never I Everybody knew the government

wouldn't do nothing to harm us, right?

never even crossed our minds until

until uh I got home and uh first

child ended up being messed up real bad

with spinoipida

for 25 years. Larry petitioned the

Veterans Administration to recognize

that Stacy's spinoipida was caused by

his exposure to Agent Orange. And for 25

years, they said no until two years ago

when studies showed that this birth

defect may be linked to

dioxin. Stacy receives $1,200 a month

and veterans exposed to Agent Orange can

now be compensated for nine other

illnesses. The Vietnamese claim a whole

host of illnesses and defects can be

traced to Agent Orange spraying,

especially along the Hochi Min trail.

That famous wartime supply route now

leads directly to dioxin victims.

According to Dr. Tran Man Hung,

even American doctors recognize that

this is one of the diseases that is

related to dioxin.

[Music]

Mr. Ho tinfi was sprayed by agent orange

during the war. He now has cancer,

non-hodkkins

lymphoma. Mr. Quinn Dem is dying of

liver cancer, which has also been linked

to dioxin. It's no secret to those

taking care of him, they've already

prepared his

coffin. But the crulest fate, according

to Dr. Hong awaits the children who've

been born with learning disabilities and

birth defects.

This girl is 6 years old, but she still

cannot speak. She can't even sit up by

herself. Someone always has to hold her.

Areas that were sprayed by Agent Orange

have 10 to 20 times more birth defects

than normal.

But to finish the research, we need help

from abroad. Vietnam can't do it alone.

66.

And now, for the first time ever,

Western scientists will get to test a

critical piece of the dioxin puzzle. Can

I see? We've tested the soils in this

area. We found dioxins in it. We've

tested some of the food items. We found

dioxins in those food items. So, the

next logical step is to also test the

human population.

And so hundreds of blood samples will be

collected and sent to Canada for

analysis along with dozens of vials of

mother's milk to see whether dioxin is

being passed to the children. Every

family will also be examined by

Vietnamese and Canadian doctors to see

just how many birth defects and

illnesses there are in this valley.

[Music]

A case of spinoipida, the same birth

defect that Larry Lay's daughter suffers

from back in Michigan, immediately

attracts the attention of another member

of the Canadian team, Dr. Ralph Brans.

Generally, the buildup of fluid will be

compressing her brains. She's obviously

not walking, so we could expect

developmental delays, uh, mental

retardation.

It's too late to help her baby, but Mrs.

Po can still help the researchers by

giving her own blood and her milk. We're

really just trying to help the

Vietnamese to start collecting some data

on these people. People just don't have

medical records. They don't there's no

computers here, you know. So, we're just

trying to help put the the roots down so

that others after us can come in and

hopefully help answer some of these big

questions.

The answers from the lab show that in

this community, dioxin in abnormally

high levels is present in both mother's

milk and human blood. But the big

question remains, did dioxin cause this

community's birth defects?

This is the main maternity hospital in

Saigon or Ho Chi Min City and it has one

of the many centers for children born

with birth defects. But although many of

their families come from villages that

were sprayed with Agent Orange, no one

can say with any certainty that the

chemical caused their problems.

[Music]

But the Vietnamese who take care of

these children believe that dioxin

caused many of these defects.

The chief neonatlogist here is Dr. Ludm

Hong. So you think these kids problems

are from agent orange? I think one two

three four who was born in the spray

area and he has what? He has spobifida

and leg problems. Yes. Leg problem too.

Yeah. Spider and leg. And do you think

that's caused by Agent Orange? Yes.

Yeah.

But Dr. Arnold Shear, who's written the

definitive text on what dioxin can do to

people, is not so sure even though he's

pushed for America to finally

investigate this controversial issue.

If there's health damage then there

should be

compensation and uh there should be

prevention measures. There should be

cleanup to be

discussed. It's a difficult area. It's

not a pure science. It's not uh just

like treating uh strep throat.

When we look at these children, it's

obviously really tragic. I mean, how

much of this can you really attribute to

dioxin?

We we don't know with the children at

this hospital. That would take health

studies for any individual patient. You

would have to do a thorough work up and

we need much more research. Dr. Shakar

has been doing research with Dr. Lee Cao

Dai of Vietnam's Red Cross. They're

collecting samples at a place called

Binois close to what used to be the main

US air base for Agent Orange missions.

They believe dioxin is leaking into a

lake where people fish. We're going to

see uh the man who had the very highest

level of dioxin which we believe is from

Agent Orange.

He's eating contaminated fish and the

you believe the runoff is from the

Benoir air base. Yes.

Hello. How are you? Mr. Wen who fought

alongside the Americans has been too

sick to work for the past 10 years. Dr.

Shear has come to tell him the amount of

dioxin in his blood is more than 40

times the normal level. And does

everyone eat the same fish?

Everyone.

You can squeeze my hand if you like. To

confirm his suspicions, Dr. Shector

tests Nuen's wife as well and is

astonished to find that her blood

contains 70 times more dioxin than is

normal, the highest anyone's tested

since the war. We were surprised. I had

expected that the rates would be coming

down uh since the spraying ended. The

results are that we're finding much

higher level of dioxin from Agent Orange

in the blood of Vietnamese than we found

for a long time.

Now, 25 years after the war has ended,

it's America's Vietnam veterans who are

pushing the hardest for the United

States to wage one last battle in

Vietnam. The battle for answers.

We've got 300 here. George Claxton

handles Larry Lay's case and hundreds of

others for the Vietnam Veterans of

America. People don't want to hear about

Agent Orange. A lot of them don't. They

don't want to hear about the Vietnam War

either. It's it's something they want to

forget about. But the people who are

sick, the people that are dying,

children that have birth defects, they

can't forget. Do you think the US

government should spend money trying to

study the situation in Vietnam, trying

to clear it up? If they don't study it

in Vietnam and find the answers there as

to why it poisons you and how to get rid

of that poison, where are they going to

study it?

It's the best laboratory in the world.

No. No. There are people dying all over

the world from dioxin. You have to find

the answers. And you go to the best

place you can, and that's

Vietnam. Amnesty means a pardon,

forgiveness, wiping the slate clean. And

amnesty, we are told now by some

Americans, is what we should grant the

tens of thousands of draft resistors and

deserters who fled the United States

rather than fight in Vietnam. There is a

precedent for amnesty. Abe Lincoln

granted it with certain conditions to

Confederate soldiers after the Civil

War. Calvin Kulage did the same for

deserters from World War I. And Harry

Truman's amnesty review board pardoned

1,500 of the draft resistors from World

War II. Now, President Nixon is being

petitioned for amnesty for the Vietnam

exiles. He was asked about it at his

last news conference. Mr. President, do

you foresee granting amnesty to any of

the young men who are fled the United

States to avoid fighting in a war that

they consider to be immoral? No.

These are some of the deserters and

draft resistors the president was saying

no to. about a hundred of them along

with wives, girlfriends, and children

winding up Thanksgiving dinner a few

weeks ago in Montreal. Some 50 students

from US colleges had joined them for the

holiday. Since the exiles rarely gather

in such large numbers anywhere in

Canada, it was a good place to start a

lot of them talking about amnesty. The

question I'd like to ask is

this. If amnesty were granted you by the

United States government

tomorrow, how many of you would go back?

Those who

would raise your hands, please. Go back

to live. Go back to live. Not to visit.

Go back to

live. Raise your hands or stand up.

Or stand up. You will. 1 2

3

4 Well, okay. How many of you, if

amnesty were granted by the US

government tomorrow, would opt to stay

here in Canada and live in Canada? Raise

your hands.

[Music]

Really? Yeah. Really? We're not going to

ask for forgiveness from a government.

The only issue of amnesty I think we

feel is the um issue do we forgive them?

They are the criminals not us.

In fact, many of the exiles all over

Canada reject the word amnesty if it

means our forgiving them. And the words

draft resistor and deserter have an

honorable ring to them as they see it.

They are the ones who are right, who are

morally correct for having refused to

take part in what they call a criminal

war in

Vietnam. But the major reason for their

lopsided response to my question in

Montreal is that a large proportion of

the exiles in Canada, perhaps the great

majority, no longer view the United

States as home. They're beginning to

make it now in Canada. They like the

life there and they plan to stay. You

want to stay here? Yeah. Make your life

here? Yeah. turned your back on the

United States. I didn't turn my back on

the the people, my people, and the the

land, the United States. No, but I sure

turned my back on the government and

what we call the system. Yeah. I don't

want any part of it. No, you don't want

amnesty.

No. Um, you know, it would be nice. I'd

like it for the other guys. How many of

your friends, your companions here in

Quebec in Montreal? How many feel the

way that you do, do you think?

Uh, he's about the only one that uh

thinks the other way. Ken Duff is a

deserter from the Marine Corps. He was

one of the very few young men who raised

his hand to say that he would go back to

the United States if amnesty were

declared. My own thoughts are that there

are 200 million people living in the

United States right now and these are

200 million human beings. There there is

no question in my mind of a government

uh in itself being either bad or or

good. It's the people that have to

change it. And if you feel that you have

a contribution to make or you feel that

there's still a possibility for change,

it doesn't really make much sense to me

that you come to Canada

and go away from the center of the

problem. In other words, Canada is fine

and it's it's a really great place and

for a lot of people that that's where

they should be. But for other people,

the United States is where they should

be. That's where the problem is. That's

where the greatest need is. And that's

where you want to go. That's where I

want to be. Unless we got uh the word

that that we were right, um we wouldn't

go back. We're not going to submit to

being forgiven.

Submit to being forgiven. Sure. That's a

that's just an indignity. I don't think

there's any question of forgiveness. I

mean, there has to be forgiveness both

ways. Every time we get one of these

discussions going, somebody brings up

that that point about we got to get

forgive a little forgiveness in both

directions. What specifically are we

going to be forgiven? The refugees,

that's what they like to call

themselves, insist there are 100,000 of

them now in Canada. Not just deserters

and draft resistors, but their wives,

girlfriends, their families. They say

there are 7,000 here in

Montreal. Those figures are probably

inflated. It's difficult to know.

There's no way really to tell just how

many of them are here. But a lot of them

who do leave the states in search of

refuge and head north for Montreal when

they arrive here come first to the

American Refugee Service behind that

yellow door. Here they can get help with

housing, jobs, French lessons if they

need

them. The young man who runs the center

is Richard Gooding, a friend of Ken

Duff, the Marine Deserter. Gooding had a

promising job at the New York Times

before he received his draft notice.

Then he decided to go to Canada. His

wife Susan is from Müster, Indiana. What

about the goodings? Let's say that

amnesty tomorrow, repatriation tomorrow

were granted. Would you go back? No, I

wouldn't. No, you would not go back. Not

necessarily. I would I would certainly

go back for visits. I don't think

there's anybody here who is so hardline,

you wouldn't go back for visits. But uh

to go back to live permanently, I at

this point I would say I would stay

here. Susan, you agree? Well, he'd put

up quite a fight to get him back there.

I really feel something for back there.

I mean, I feel roots back there right

now. Although, I must admit they're

slowly dying out. When I first came up

here a year ago, all I could think about

every day, I must have cried and begged

him to go back. And now I went home in

August and I found out that my home is

really with Richard. Does that make you

happy? Honest? No. Makes you sad. I'd

like to go back. I'd really like to go

back. I'd go

tomorrow. But do you argue about it?

Really? Yes. My parents don't call me on

the holidays because I get so

depressed. I really would like to be

back with them at those times and share

it with them. All the families together.

The man who drove up to Canada to put

that Thanksgiving dinner together was

Baxton Bryant, a strapping Methodist

minister from North Carolina who strides

along with a hat given him by Johnny

Cash. The Reverend has a considerable

respect for many of the young exiles

like Ken Duff.

I would imagine in the in the community

of

nations, the group that will show the

greatest spirit and morality of America

are not the group I say in all respect

that went to Vietnam, but the group that

came to Canada. And I think we've got to

quit waging a war, an emotional war

against young people whose only crime is

they want to live. They want to love and

they want to be community. If the United

States grants amnesty to these young

Americans in Canada, Japan, Sweden, then

in future, what's going to be the

incentive for a young man to go to war

for his country if indeed his country

needs him at war? I think it's up to a

nation to be right enough on the issues

that if it's uh if its borders or if its

national interest is really threatened

that it's got to rely upon the

intelligence and the patriotism of its

people to support it. And that has not

happened in Vietnam. I'd like to see the

whole thing wiped clean, open the

borders, and say to our young men, "If

you want to come home, if you don't,

Godspeed wherever you are." Ken Duff,

the 19-year-old deserter, was a lonely

voice for amnesty at that Thanksgiving

dinner. But in Montreal and Toronto and

other cities across Canada, we learned

there are many exiles, probably

thousands of them, who do want to come

back. They are homesick, some of them,

and lots of them can't get jobs up

there. On the face of it, Ken is an

unlikely young man to wind up as a

deserter in Montreal. Raised in the

small conservative community of

Danielson, Connecticut, he was a top

student in high school. Then after just

one semester of college, he dropped a

$16,000 scholarship to enlist in the

Marines. At Camp Lleon, he was assigned

to the computer center. Probably he

never would have had to serve in

Vietnam. Still, he deserted and now he

wants to come back to the United States.

Ken, somebody might ask the question, is

it just for Ken Duff to get amnesty? He

didn't go to Vietnam. My son did. Maybe

I lost my son over there. What about

him? Well, uh, it's a hard question

because these people did what they

thought was right and what was their

duty. But my ideal of of what America

should be and and what America should do

as a country is different from theirs, I

suppose, because I think that in order

in order for there to be a change or

uh uh in order for that ideal that I

have to come real, then I have to to

live it. And I don't think uh my ideal

includes killing women, children, and

babies. It's what I was

taught and I'm trying to live it. Yet

you joined the Marines.

Well, how do you reconcile? Uh, when I

enlisted, I didn't feel strongly enough.

I didn't have facts enough or

observations enough to feel that I could

fight it then. And it wasn't until after

I was in that I came to the realization

that I didn't want any part of the war

or what was going on. How do you think

the folks in Danielson, Connecticut, are

going to feel about Ken Duff, the Marine

Deserter, coming back home?

It's hard to say. I really don't know. I

think if I talked to them, if they they

wanted to understand, they could. I'm

sure they could. After talking to Ken

Duff up in Montreal, we came down to his

hometown of Danielson, Connecticut,

first to his own home to find out how

his family and friends feel on this

whole business of amnesty. Gerald and

Gertrude Duff work in nearby factories

in this small community of 6,000. Like

thousands of other parents across

America, they find it tough to face the

fact that their son has fled to Canada.

Ken looks like a real Marine Corps hero

in this picture, Mrs. Duff. Oh, you

think so?

Don't you? Of course. I was very proud

of that picture.

Are you ashamed of what Ken's done?

Honestly,

um I I'm not sure if No, it's not shame

in what he's done. I guess it's a fear

that some people might think it's

shameful. So, you lie, people ask you

about it, you tell one lie, and then

pretty soon you're telling another

lie, which is very hard to do to someone

that don't like to lie. Mr. Do if it

came down to Ken staying in Canada or

coming down here and facing two years in

prison, what would you advise him to do?

Well, I've always preached to him come

face and

music. Take what they had come to him.

Even if that meant his going to jail for

a couple of years.

Mrs. Duff, I wouldn't like that.

I would like amnesty because uh I think

he really means it when he says he wants

to come home. Not not that he wants to

get away with anything or

uh you know to say well I did it and I

got away with it. I don't I think he has

become let's say humble.

What do you say? What is your feeling

about the I suppose millions of

Americans who are saying to themselves

at this moment, look, they turned their

back on their country. They turned their

back on their duty. Let them stay up

there and

rot. Mrs.

Duff, that's a tough

question because it's the way I felt.

But

um if nothing else comes of this, I

think my son has caused us to open our

minds a little bit, which

um I think it was pretty closed on this

issue. Red, white, and blue, that's me.

It's what I've always been. And uh I

still get a funny feeling in my stomach

when I hear America the Beautiful or the

Star Spangled Banner or see the band

marching and all this. But basically

um the way our son feels

uh basically it's the same as we

feel but it's a whole new different way

of looking at

things and doing things.

Sometimes I look at him and I think that

uh

uh he has more

uh moxy than I would ever have had at

that

age. I know at that age I was

uh always had dreams. I dreamed of great

things but I never really carried them

through. But I think he has a dream and

I an ideal and I think he's doing

something about it. And to the mothers

and fathers of the kids who fought and

some of them were wounded and some of

them

died. What do you say to them? Oh, I put

myself in their place and it's

um I

um you shouldn't have asked me that.

I would say that he went on his own to

Canada. Let him be over there. What can

he do? Uh uh going to a different

country. Nothing. If he had enough guts,

he would have stood right here and stick

it out. To me, it's more or less running

away doesn't sell anything in my book.

That's for sure. That's for sure. Kurt

and Betty Meyer also live in Danielson.

They are German immigrants who run a

mink farm and have strong views on

amnesty. Their oldest son, Leonard, was

Ken Duff's closest friend in high

school. Len Meyer also enlisted in the

Marines. He was never sent to Vietnam.

Now he is back home again living with

his parents, but he disagrees with them

on many things, especially on the

subject of amnesty for the exiles up in

Canada. I don't see why they shouldn't

be let back to this country. It's a free

country. It's supposed to be, you know,

all kinds of thoughts and ideas supposed

to be, you know, coexisting here because

they have a different idea. They're

supposed to leave. I mean, why can't

they be here? Well, now wait a second.

It's a free country, but it's also a

country of laws. The law says that you

serve your country. The law also says

that the country is supposed to serve

the people. The country is not doing

what the people want half the time. So,

it's kind of makes you start wondering

if the country's really, you know, for

the people. If everybody just want to

take the law in their own hands and just

because they're dissatisfied, they don't

like this. I don't like to pay taxes.

But I do pay him, do I? So, if we all

would feel this way and we say, "Well,

no more for me. are going to skip. We

want to convince our boys that by

running away from any problem, may it be

against your will, against your

judgment, it don't solve it. Yet by

fighting over and you say fighting, you

know, running away from the country

instead of staying here and fighting

fighting it out here. He can't do really

much and he wasn't really sure what he

could do. All he'd end up is getting

thrown to jail and no one would ever

hear from him, see him or anything. Can

you imagine how Mrs. Duff feels? This is

what I don't understand. Why don't kids

understand

parents? Their way is the right way.

They want to do their thing. What are

parents here for? All their life you

spend bringing them up. You try to give

them what you rather go without. And

what do you get? Something like this.

And then you should make a decision.

One, two, three. Leave him there. Bring

them home. That could drive you crazy.

But don't you have, aren't you forced

though really to have admiration for the

courage of a Ken Duff who knew what he

was doing, who knew what he was getting

into? Oh, I don't know really. I don't

know if you can call it courage. I mean,

I've seen a lot in life and I don't know

if to me courage isn't even the right

word for something like this. To be very

honest, I think I'm more of a coward

because I stayed in and I never agreed

with it anyway. I still don't agree with

it. I stayed in. Why? Because I was Look

at this. You start crying. You say, "Why

don't we understand you? Why don't you

understand us? These guys deserted. Let

them stay where they're at. We went and

fought for our country. We fought hard.

We didn't like what we was doing. We did

it. Let them stay where they're at." The

Times Square Bar and Restaurant in

Danielson is a meeting place each day

after work for many of Kenduff's

neighbors. I raised the subject of

amnesty there.

Is there anybody in this room who lost a

friend or lost a member of his family or

had a member of his family wounded in

Vietnam? I watched 26 of my buddies go

down in one time. 26 at once. 26 at

once. And I had to survey their gear. I

had to send I had to read their letters

in Vietnam. In Vietnam at Quesan. Okay.

What do you feel about amnesty for the

guys who went to Canada? The way I look

at it, if a guy never went into the

service, if he's dodging the draft, if

he never went into the service, never

wanted to go into service, send him

home. But once a man's in the service,

he accepted the responsibility. It was

put on his shoulders and he accepted it.

So to Ken Duff, you say, "Huh?" So to

Ken, stay there. Stay in Canada. I say

amnesty should be granted to every man

that refused to go into that war because

there was never a war. And I agree with

you. There was never a war. It was never

declared. If it had been a

war, I say any man who refused to go

should have been hung. I don't say it's

right to be over there, but we're there

and it's a country's policy and the

people get called, they got to go and

fight the guy. Oh, so it's our country's

policy. We don't change our country's

policy. Change it. Go vote. Get somebody

else to change the policy. You don't run

out on a goddamn thing. Their decision

was much harder than the guy who got his

notice and said, "Report here at such

and such a time and we'll teach you to

kill." They believe they they didn't

want to. They they faced leaving their

country, the place they were born, place

where they're going to live, and faced a

prison term if they come back. I think

that's a much harder decision to make

than just going in and carrying a rifle

for two years. Yeah. But that decision

make that that's that you're deciding on

your life right there. You're deciding

whether I should go to Canada and stay

alive or I'll take the chance of going

over there and getting my head blown

off. Now, which would you do? If I put a

gun to your head and say go to Canada or

sit there and get killed, what are you

going to do? I'll see you later.

Supposing everybody that's been called

in the service decided not to go in the

service. Where the hell would we be? I

was in the service and uh I have an idea

what what it's like. I think they should

just be allowed to come back without

calling it amnesty. They're going to

work. They're going to take a job away

from a veteran who's coming back. It

doesn't matter and they've been hiding

up there for 10 years. It doesn't matter

at all. We belong to different

generations and we think differently.

But but I look at this objectively and I

don't think you do. They're Americans.

They were born here and they're they'll

always be Americans. They're not

Americans. If they don't label this

country, leave it. That's the BFW

attitude. You love it or leave it. Stay

over there. Kenduff's family and

Kenduff's neighbors in Danielson give us

just a glimpse of the debate that is

bound to break as the war in Vietnam

winds down. what to do about the young

men who preferred to leave their country

rather than fight and kill in

Vietnam. This country hopefully is

coming to the end of one of the

bitterest moments in its short

history. When it is over, are we going

to welcome back the young men that so

many of us view as

prodigals? Will they want to come home

from all the Montreals?

In the 5 years since the Vietnam buildup

began, almost 2 and a/4 million American

servicemen have gone there. And they are

still going at the rate of about 12

plane loads every week. Like the rest of

us, though more personally, of course,

they too are caught up in the great

debate over the Vietnam War. Should we

be there? Are we asking them to do

what's right? Is it worth the time it

takes out of their lives? Is it worth

possibly the sacrifice of their

lives? To learn what is on the minds of

the men we ask to do our fighting for

us, a 60 minutes crew flew to Vietnam

with a plane load of replacements. Then

we flew back home again with men who had

served there a year or more to see what

effect that year had had on them. They

took off from Travis Air Force Base in

California. It could have been a

commercial flight to anywhere. Some of

them had stowed portable television sets

and guitars in the baggage compartment,

hoping for an assignment where they

could use them. No weapons. They'll be

issued in

Vietnam. Going to war is not like it

used to be. There's no commanding

officer on board, nobody in charge.

Unless perhaps it's the stewardises.

The plane is a commercial Super DC8

chartered by the military.

[Music]

We'd like to welcome you aboard Flying

Tiger Line flight number

F2B3 to Benois, Vietnam with

intermediate stops at Anchorage, Alaska,

and Yakakota Air Base,

Japan. Our scheduled flying time to

Anchorage will be 4 hours and 20 minutes

and we will be cruising at an altitude

of 33,000 ft.

It is 20 hours and 12,000 m to war over

the Great Circle route to Benois Air

Base near Saigon. From there comes

assignment to an outfit that needs them

in the

field. All these men are in the army.

Some are drafties, some regulars, and

some are going back to Vietnam for the

second or third time. Their mood was

wistful, reflective as they talked with

us about the war they were heading for

and the country they were leaving

behind.

I got drafted uh two days after I

finished college and uh I didn't uh

particularly fancy leaving my folks and

girl, you know, but none of the other

guys do either. But um I feel it if my

country thinks we should be there. It's

given me a place to live for 23 years.

It's been real good. I believe that if

it if it thinks I should be there, I

think I should be there. When did you

last see your mom, Macdonald? Wednesday

morning.

Was she pretty shook? Oh, not too bad.

She took it pretty good. What about you?

Can't do much about it. Either go over

there or go to jail.

You for the war? No. against it. Why? I

don't think the United States government

should have the right to draft a person

and send them to a war that doesn't uh

directly affect the security of the

United States.

It was daylight high above the Pacific,

flying with the sun across the

international

dine. We drifted from seat to seat,

finding familiar disagreement among

them, too, on issues like the war itself

and descent back home.

How old are you? 21. Hester, how old are

you? I'm 20, sir. You're going over

there for the first time. And you

volunteered. You're a regular army. Yes,

sir. I am. I didn't volunteer to go to

Vietnam, though. I did volunteer to come

into the service. And I think that

probably if we had more people to

volunteer that we wouldn't have to draft

the boys at home. And if these people on

the college campuses would settle down

and come to the realization that we need

their their help and their aid instead

of their descent, as you call it, I

think we'd be a lot better off. You mean

you you don't want any disscent on the

college campuses or in the cities or a

little bit of disscent is all right, but

this this burning and and and tearing

down buildings and stuff and killing

people, I can't buy that. I I I just

can't buy that at all. Well, what about

uh Kent State? That was killing from the

other side. That killing from the other

side, I think, was necessary. Really? I

really do. Explain. For the simple

reason, if you'll notice, in Mexico,

they use this same policy and everything

quieted down. And I feel that we need to

use the same policy that Mexico did.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I feel it. And no,

I don't think anybody could ever change

my mind about it. Do you feel they could

have done it in another way besides

shooting the students? Do you think they

could have maybe at least use a little

force of the rifle to push the students

away? Did they have to fire? Not when

not when people are throwing rocks and

and bottles and stuff at them trying to

kill them. No. But can you correlate

between a rock and a bullet? Can you

correlate that, you know, the

difference? I mean, a rock might If it's

going to hit you in the head, if it's

going to if it's going to hit you in the

head, it can kill you, right? You've

seen what the guardsmen look like when

they're dressed up. You couldn't hit

them with You couldn't hit them with a

15lb rock. I beg to differ with you

there. They had the right to shoot the

students, right? I'm not saying they had

the right. It needed to be done. It was

forced. The the students forced it on

themselves. The guardsman didn't do it

without a without Let me ask you, if you

went to a bar one night and you got had

a lot to drink and you started really

getting loud and then bartender came

over and shoot you, would you feel he

had the right to shoot you? Well, in the

first place, I'm not going to be in that

bar. Why not? Because I don't believe in

drinking that much. Oh, well, you got me

there then.

Giles, I gather that you're a hawk.

You're you're for the war, right? Yes,

sir. Are you going to a combat unit? No,

I'm not. At least I don't think so.

Yeah. Gabberon, you're against the war.

Are you going to a combat? Yes, I am.

I'm going up near the DMZ. You know that

already? Uh, yes, I do. What do you do?

Uh, I work on a twin 40 mm guns. And

Thompson, you're against you're uh for

the war, correct? Are you going to a

combat unit? No, I will not be going to

a combat unit. What do you do? I am an

administrative specialist. So, of this

three guys here, the one who is anti-war

is the fellow who's going out to lay it

on the line in a sense. What do you

think of the of the move into Cambodia?

What about all this, Thompson? When we

go into Cambodia, I mean, we're taking

away their arms. We're taking away their

food. We're taking away their

sanctuaries. My lord, you say you're

going into combat. One of those bullets

that they got over there might have had

your name on it. What do you think about

that? I think if we weren't there, we

wouldn't have to worry about it. If we

don't go in there, they aren't even

going to have the right to say which

way. Yes, they will. If they want to

fight communism, they will fight it.

They are fighting it. The South

Vietnamese are fighting it just as hard

as we are. That's true. Tell me this,

Giles. We've lost something over 40,000

men now. 40,000 American lives. As far

as you're concerned, it's worth it.

You'd be willing to sacrifice your life.

I'll tell you what, if I had to lay my

life on the line for any man here, I'd

do it. And I'm quite sure I do it

without even thinking. To me, it's worth

it. Well, that's the that's American

soldiers. Like a soldier would lay his

life down for another American soldier,

but I wouldn't lay my life down for any

Vietnamese. Any Vietnamese. Tell me

something. Are you guys the least bit

scared going over there? Oh, when I

first came down on orders, I was

apprehensive and my wife was real shook

up. She still is. But like I told her

last night, I said, "Really and truly,

I'm not scared to be going over there. I

don't know why. Maybe I should be. Some

of the other people are, some of the

people aren't. But really, I'm not

scared. I'm not worried about it." At uh

at first, I was scared. Uh I had all the

money and everything to to go to Canada.

I was going to fly to Montreal, but uh

then I changed my mind and decided,

well, some people do come back. I guess

I'll take my chances.

Oh, well, with me it was a half and half

situation. At first, I I really didn't

feel anything. I found out I was going,

so I said, "Okay, I'm going. That's all

there is to it. There's really nothing I

can do about it." Then about the last

week or so, I really started getting

kind of nervous and jumpy there. But

now, well, I'm here, so there's really

nothing to it. If I get zapped while I'm

there, well, the world's not going to

stop. So, just going to keep pushing.

To measure how deeply split these men

might be about the war, we took a poll.

We asked the question, "Are you in favor

or are you against United States

participation in Vietnam?" These were

the

results. 120 of these men were in favor

of our fighting there. 78 were against.

A few were either asleep or

undecided. As we listened to them, we

couldn't help but ponder the sad reality

that one out of every three men aboard

this plane was bitterly opposed to the

war. He was being sent to fight. Do you

ever think about actually picking up a

gun and shooting a BC? I've thought

about it and I couldn't do it. You

couldn't do it? No, I wouldn't do it.

Well, now wait a minute. You're going to

Vietnam. You're a US soldier and yet you

couldn't kill a man? I couldn't kill a

man.

If if that man came at you with a gun,

you couldn't kill him. If it was

himself, the bad side would I mean, it's

it's it's your life or his, man. He's

pointing a gun at you. You couldn't pick

up a gun and point one back at him and

pull the trigger. Now, I'm against a

war, but I'm uh as far as my life

concerned, I could kill somebody. Let me

understand something now. And you and

Ken are for the war. You green are

against it. And yet you say, you two

guys say that you that you couldn't

shoot to kill a man. And you who are

against the war say that you could. And

explain it to me, will you?

I know this is wartime and I I am behind

the country and since we are at war, I

do support the country and support the

president and support the soldiers. But

I think each man has to examine his

conscience and ask himself if he could

pull that trigger on another man,

another living being. And I've done a

lot of soulsearching. I've examined my

own conscience and I find that I I

couldn't do it.

I notice that the the plane gets a

little quiet the closer we come to

Vietnam.

What have you been thinking about,

Jones? Well, uh I think about home

mostly, but when I get back and

uh it uh I just want to get home, that's

all. You worried? Well, I think

everybody is a little, you know, uh

probably just as calm as anybody else,

but still a little little worried.

Worried about what? worried about uh

about the I suppose the thing

everybody's worrying about basically

getting killed. That's that's correct.

Uh I mean everybody's got that in mind,

you know, that they may not come back,

but I think as long as keep straight, do

all right.

As the plane flew into the darkness at

Benoir airport, just getting through

that year ahead must have been on the

mind of every man aboard.

Gentlemen, if at any time while

deploying the aircraft that have been

hit by rocket or mortar fire, please

continue into the terminal building

while face down on the ground until you

begin with the all clear.

3 days later, again, Benois Airport.

Another plane load, all army. This time

heading home. many of them leaving a

year to the day from the time they

arrived. If they are leaner and harder

than the men coming in, they are a year

older and with some rough times behind

them. If they are tired, it is partly

because they've been exhausted by 2 to

three days of army processing. Men who

had been through combat complained of

hour after hour of dull routine. Falling

in and out of formation, roll calls,

waiting in the barracks, waiting at the

airport, waiting for the announcement to

get on

board. I have your attention in the

terminal area. Detachment 5, eerial port

immediate loading and departure of

Universal Airlines flight Z4.

[Applause]

These men had made it and they knew it.

They were coming back whole.

Coming back from the war isn't like it

used to be either. And a commercial

airliner looked more like home to these

men than anything they had seen in

months and months.

[Laughter]

take this opportunity to uh welcome you

aboard for myself, the rest of the crew,

and Universal Airlines. We're very happy

to have you with us on your return

flight to the States. Liftoff was at 700

p.m., the start of 20 hours back to

California. This time it would be

evening, then black night, then daylight

to Alaska, and finally night again for

the landing at Travis Air Force Base.

Most of the men dropped right off to

sleep and it seemed an intrusion to

bother them with questions. But

gradually they gathered round to tell us

what was on their minds after a year in

Vietnam.

When I first came over here, I was

against the war. Now that I've am here

and seen what is going on here, I am

fully for the war here in Vietnam. These

people do need help.

Most of the guys I know don't want to

want to be there and when they get out

they don't want to be there more even

more. They they really hate it and they

think it's stupid. Should we be pulling

out of Vietnam faster than we are? No, I

don't think we should be pulling out any

faster than we are. You endanger the

lives of American soldiers that would be

left behind and um I think they should

go at it full strength. Get it over with

if they're going to fight it. If they're

not, then pull out.

Well, their biggest mistake is we should

have uh helped South Vietnam by giving

them arms and equipment. Why? So they

can

sell. So they can sell them to the VC.

They wouldn't sell them to the V. How

corrupted is that government, man? Which

government? The South Vietnamese

government. It's very corrupt. That's

why I don't support it. You don't trust

the South Vietnamese government? No. No,

definitely not. When I Oh, Mike, I'm

telling you the truth. when I could go

through an enemy base camp and find this

hand uh American care packages,

penicellin that you give to the South

Vietnamese government, food, clothes,

medicine, weapons, ammunition, trucks,

jeeps, Volkswagen. Wait a minute. You

can find more things on the Vietnamese

black market. Americanmade goods can and

that's a

fact.

Again, on this flight, we asked everyone

aboard, "Are you in favor or against US

participation in the Vietnam War?" They

asked us to announce the

results. Here are the results of the

poll on the way across to Vietnam. When

we talked to uh principally drafties,

but some regular army fellas, some

officers, some who were going back for

their second or even their third tour in

Vietnam, the results

were 124 US

participation, 78 against US

participation, nine guys were asleep.

The result aboard this plane. The result

of the poll aboard this plane for US

participation in the war in

Vietnam.

148 against US

participation.

46. 14 were sacked out or didn't want to

answer. We asked about relations between

black and white soldiers. Apparently,

they are not much better in Vietnam than

they are back home. I have no no

problems at all over here. I have a a

lot of what you would call soul friends.

I get along fine with everybody. I do my

job. I do what's expected of me and I

get along fine. Now, I know there's a

lot of tension on line troops. This

happens everywhere. It's it's just one

of those things. They was definitely

strained

in the field or at base camp or every

place. Well, I cannot speak for the

field, but I was in Gar. I was in Saigon

and there was definitely strain there. I

was on a a boat where we ran took cargo

through the Delta and the boats I was on

with black men and white men, we got

along when they're just a few and it's

easy to get along. You got to depend on

each other. But up in the companies,

well, you know, you have a lot more

trouble. You know, you hear that out in

the field, the black and the white get

along beautifully.

Yes, they do. Because survival is

dependent upon that. This is the only

reason they do because the black man has

to depend on the white man. If they

don't, he doesn't get by.

And then what about pot? How available

is it? And how heavily are the men

smoking marijuana in Vietnam? What about

it? petty. Is there considerable amount

of pot smoking where you were? Yeah,

there was a lot of pot smoking. There

was nothing else to do. You you read a

book. You weren't allowed to bring a

book or radio out, but you brought a

book and a radio out. You also did

anything to get out you to to so you had

something to do rather than just sit

there and get bored. And it's readily

available and cheap. Oh, it's it's

available. Everybody, all the boy songs,

all the kids sell it. They just throw it

across the wire to you and you throw a

dollar back or $2, whatever you're

paying. It's not very It doesn't cost

much. It's super cheap over here. Well,

the only thing I can say is what I've

seen going on in my own unit where we do

have a few pot smokers in the crowd.

It's seems to be there, but the

punishment is a little slap on the hand.

What I would say, I've seen this in my

own case being in my own unit where

they'd go to court and they'd come up

some technicality, illegal searchs or

just a little bitty thing. But then I

heard remarks, maybe I shouldn't say it,

but it was by people that sat on the

boards were supposed to be those that

were the judge and everything. They

said, "Well, they used it in college, so

they didn't really see anything too much

wrong with it."

Well, I tell you what, Mike. You beat

that bush for 9 months like everybody

else does and you ain't got nothing else

to do, I think you would smoke marijuana

myself. I indulge, but not no more cuz

I'm out of it. You know what I mean? I'm

not going to jail now. You know what I

mean? I'm going home. What about you,

Hul? Well, I don't use marijuana, but I

know a lot of my friends in my old unit

did, and I think uh it's a personal

decision on their part. Well, c can you

use it or or do do the guys use it uh

excessive excessively? Some do. Huh?

Some do. Yes, mostly. What about in

combat? Field troops, they do. I would

think it'd be dangerous as can be to to

get stoned and go into combat. Well,

you've been as much combat as some of

those guys have. You ain't got no

alternative cuz you know you're going to

get zapped and go home without a leg. If

you're lucky, you're going to make it

home like we did. Is that a wound or a

It's from a hang grenade. Where?

Cambodia.

But if there was one subject these men

wanted to talk about more than any

other, it was the protests and

demonstrations in the United States.

They were against them almost to a man.

I really it it really kind of makes you

feel bad because after you've been over

here fighting and running from mortars

and rockets for a year that you really

have to go back to you have you really

have nothing to look forward to but

rioting and somebody blowing up your

house or your car or something like

this. And I really think it's it's kind

of bad after being away for a year

during war.

Well, I've been to Australia on RNR and

the more I look at what's happening back

in the United States and the people how

friendly they are down there and the not

well I was in Sydney they didn't have

hardly any violence at all.

one night that they had

a a dispute between hippies and the

police, which you're going to find

everywhere. But I'm seriously thinking

about moving to Australia because I

don't think it's myself that the United

States is a place for me because of the

trouble going on there. You're really

disappointed in your country,

Pennington? Yes, I am.

We were off the Pacific coast now, less

than an hour from home. And getting home

was what it was all about. Chief, what's

going through your mind right now?

Well, my wife Julia, my three wonderful

sons I have at home and how thankful I

am to be getting home to him.

What about you, Lieutenant? Well, I have

to say the first thing I'm looking

forward to is seeing my wife. I was

married 6 months before I came over here

and then uh I came to Vietnam and I want

to go meet good old what's her name

again.

I'd like to know uh exactly there's

going to be much changes as far as

attitude of people towards me coming

back from

Vietnam and exactly how I'm going to

react to

uh what's going on back in the world

right now as far as demonstrations. What

how do you think you're going to react

to all of that?

Well, I can say at least when I the way

I feel I will react is that

I can see people demonstrate excuse me

demonstrating I see the right to

descent. The only thing that would

really bother me is if someone would say

something

about myself or fellow soldiers that

served in Vietnam that would lower them

in my eyes.

Uh, I'm not that much. I was I'm not

really in favor of the

war, but when I looked at the three

alternatives of leaving the country or

going to prison or going in the army, I

chose going in the

army. And uh, you must have done a good

job. You made your sergeant stripes.

Well, I just say I lucked out, I guess.

[Music]

And now they are

home. The bombing of North Vietnam began

again this week. For 5 days, hundreds of

US planes pounded enemy fuel and supply

depots, airfields, anti-aircraft,

missile, and radar sites. The rationale,

according to the Pentagon, to protect

the withdrawal of our troops to guard

against an enemy buildup. But the

skeptics say the bombing was ordered by

an anxious President Nixon to tell Hanoi

that he will not stand by while his

Vietnamization program is threatened by

a military setback in South Vietnam or

Laos or Cambodia. and it is threatened.

Among those Americans who look

quizzically or with dismay at the

resumption of the bombing, none are more

concerned than the wives and mothers of

American prisoners of war. Those whose

men have been held captive or have been

listed as missing in action for years

and years to talk about the bombing and

its effect on the prisoners. 60 Minutes

gathered in Washington a few days ago.

Seven women representing, they said, a

cross-section of P families.

Gene McDaniel's husband, an Air Force

major, has been a P in North Vietnam for

more than five and a half

years. Helen Miller's son, Navy

Lieutenant Edwin Miller, was shot down

in May 68. He is a prisoner in North

Vietnam. Barbara Rouser's husband, an

Air Force captain, has been missing in

action since his plane was downed over

Laos 20 months

ago. Carol Hansen is also the wife of a

missing flyer. Her husband, a medevac

helicopter pilot, crashed in Laos 4 and

a half years ago. There has been no

word. Valerie Kushner, wife of an army

doctor, one of the few known prisoners

of the Vietkong in South Vietnam. He was

captured four years ago. Phyllis

Galanti's husband, a Navy commander, has

been a prisoner in North Vietnam for 5

and a half years. Mrs. Lawrence

Johnson's stepson, an Air Force major on

his second tour of duty in Vietnam, was

captured just two weeks ago, shot down

over North Vietnam. These films of Major

Johnson in Hanoi appeared on television

this past week.

The bombing of the past week, has it

been wise or unwise? Do you understand

the necessity for it? Who who wants to

handle it? Understand the necessity for

it from from the viewpoint of the

administration? Yes, certainly. We've uh

the CIA has been kicked off the plane of

jars. Nam pen is surrounded and

threatened. The uh Arvin troops in

Cambodia are being whipped and sent in

retreat. So I can certainly understand

the administration necessity for it.

Yes. Uh and the benefit that would occur

to the government of South Vietnam. What

I don't understand is any benefit it

brings to this country, to the fighting

to the American men in South Vietnam or

to the prisoners of war. Certainly to

them it's the greatest harm if by the

minimum it's increasing their number.

But what you seem to say is that we'd

really have no stake in the survival of

the government of South Vietnam. No, I

don't think so. I think our commitment

should be certainly more to American

men. I think uh the bulk of the country

would certainly support me in this.

We've been there for 10 years. We've

more than fulfilled what we said we

would do. If Laos falls, if Cambodia

falls, if the government of South

Vietnam falls, so be it. So be it. the

bombing of the last week or 10 days. Was

it wise or unwise, Mrs. Miller? Well, I

couldn't see any point to

it. We decided to stop the bombing. We

gave them three years to build up their

installations and then all of a sudden

we're bombing again. And this means that

our planes are going down. We have more

prisoners. We have more missing in

action. We have more dead. And I don't

think it accomplishes that much. We say

we want out. There's been very little

fighting. One man was killed um this

week. Still, it's one man, but I don't

see where the North is hampering the

withdrawal of troops. The bombing, Gene

McDaniel, did it make things tougher or

easier for your husband and for the rest

of the PS? I think it think it made

things harder for him because I think it

will mean, you know, his release is not

going to come as long as the bomb is

going on. I know um Carol said, you

know, they weren't doing anything before

the bombing, but I still say that it

prolongs their imprisonment and I don't

go along with it. I just cannot believe

it's happening.

Is there a different view among any of

you wives? Yes, I I feel that that my

husband went over there feeling a need

for our prisons and I feel that he if he

is alive has suffered a great deal.

Actually affects the prisoner issue that

much. I there was no movement on the

prisoner issue before the bombing. Uh I

don't think it's going to to help bring

about their release, but there was no

movement uh before the bombing was

initiated. In a sense, that's what the

Secretary of Defense seemed to say in

his news conference the other day. He

said that while he deplored the plight

of the

PWS, he seemed to say this, that their

release had to take place to take second

place to other matters. And he was even

more specific than that. The question

was very directly put to him. How will

the bombing affect the prisoners of war,

American prisoners of war held in North

Vietnam? and his immediate answer was

the bombing is being undertaken in

defense of the withdrawing troops in

South Vietnam. In fact, he as much as

said those men have been written off.

You cannot

separate the issue of ending the war and

the prisoners release. I think the

administration has written off Laos and

Cambodia pretty much. I think they've as

much as come out and said this. Now

they're trying

to shore up the

Vietnamization in South Vietnam. This is

one one explanation for the

bombing. Now, if this uh if they haven't

been able to do it in three years, if

they can't train South Vietnamese

pilots, it doesn't take that long to

train an American pilot. If it takes

that long to train the Vietnamese, then

we're in for a really long hall, and I'd

rather go it with a new man than a lame

duck.

Well, do you believe that perhaps Mr.

Nixon and the administration generally

are trying to shore up Laos, Cambodia,

and surely the government of South

Vietnam because of military disaster in

the Indo-China might ensure the defeat

of President Nixon should he when he

stands for reelection? Well, this is

something that goes back to what Carol

said. Uh, if I thought for one moment my

husband's captivity was in some way

serving the national interest of this

country, I could endure it. I wouldn't

be any more content, but it could be

more endurable. But when I think that he

is suffering, which he is, and

undergoing all kinds of mental and

physical anguish solely for the purpose

of shoring up the government of South

Vietnam, well, that makes him a

mercenary. He didn't swear an oath to

the government of South Vietnam. He

swore to this country. And I happen to

think my husband is too good a person to

be a mercenary soldier and for sale to

foreign government.

Carol Hansen, one P mother, told CBS

News not so long ago that she cannot

understand why her son should remain a P

for a war that nobody in America

believes in anymore.

I know it's difficult and I think it's

especially difficult for the families in

a war such as this where uh there isn't

any national resolve to the whole

Vietnam conflict. Prisoners are a side

effect of a war whether we like it or

not. Uh it's always been that way. I I'm

not trying to minimize my husband at all

and I don't mean that. But I don't want

the prisoner issue to be resolved at the

expense of everything else. I just can't

bring myself to look at it that way.

Look, you are each one of you a wife or

a mother of a P. What short of

withdrawal of the United States from

Indochina is going to bring the P's

home? Gene McDaniel? Nothing. Absolutely

nothing. Because as long as there's a

war, he'll be there.

Pray for a miracle.

Believe in a miracle. No. Pray for one.

Unless our government policy reverses

itself, they're not coming home. Barber.

Negotiations, which would be that

miracle. Negotiations have been going

on. Yes. But a final negotiation, a

settlement, which would be the miracle.

I believe there is a solution in a

negotiated settlement. And I feel that a

great deal of what has kept this from

coming to be is is the dissension in

this country and the diversion in this

country. Val, a new president who would

then set a date of withdrawal. Phyllis,

I say definitely negotiations with a

little bit more give and take on both

sides.

And Mrs. Jones, negotiations for a

complete settlement. Now, some of you

feel end the war, withdraw the troops,

and get the PS back right now. And there

are some who say, "Look, the president

knows what he is doing. We've got to go

along with the president and he'll get

our husbands or our sons back when the

war is over, when the war is over on the

terms that he thinks it should be over

on." Now, is that

divergence changing? Barbara Roush, for

instance, what is your view of that?

Well, I myself have changed. In the

beginning, I was a backup for the

president. I thought what he said in

1968, I have a secret plan to end the

war. I will bring peace. I thought he

meant now he's had three years to do it.

He has 10 months until the next

election. He hasn't been able to do it

up till now.

And I scarcely see where a resumption of

bombing, whether it is to shore up his

Vietnamization, if this was his secret

plan, I think he may have been well

advised to have kept it secret. I I just

somehow think that he is not doing what

he set out to do. I have wrestled with

my conscience very

deeply before I have come to my decision

to withdraw any support from the

president. I have thought what would my

husband want me to

do? And somehow if they hold a tape in

front of his nose and say look your wife

is on our side now. You have no reason

for holding back.

He is

somewhat less likely to be upset than

the he might have been a long time ago

or from a missing an action standpoint

of non- entity where he has been told

your family doesn't care. They really

don't know anything about you. They

really don't care whether you live or

die. I'd rather they tell him that I'm

working to get you out,

buddy, than you don't exist at all.

Fellis Galanti, what's your reaction to

that? Well, I have wrestled with my

conscience also, and I used to be very,

very conservative. I have decided though

that by early spring, if something

doesn't happen, I'm going to quit my job

and work very actively for some

presidential candidate. I don't know

right now but it's a hard decision to

make but I am changing a lot in myself

and this is something that I will have

to do by that time. Has the president in

your estimation been forthright? Has he

been straightforward with the American

people on the issue of the prisoners of

war? We have been told for so many years

there are delicate negotiations going

on. Don't rattle the cage. And you know

you can believe in that for so long but

I am a real doubting Thomas now. I need

some facts. I need something to back it

up. I find that I've become very cynical

and I don't like that in myself. But uh

we just haven't been told the truth. I

think Mrs. Johnson, may I just for a

moment, Mrs. Johnson, your stepson went

down just last week in North Vietnam on

December 18th. What is your feeling

about what Mrs. Galante has just said? I

agree with her. You do? Yes. You feel

that the president has not been well not

entirely but um I I he has made promises

and that's one reason we elected him in

and we haven't seen all those promises

fulfilled in 3 years time. My colleague

Dan Rather tonight at 9:30 is going to

be in the Oval Office of the White House

speaking with President Nixon on

television. Is there any question that

you would like Dan to put to the

president?

I would I would not really a question,

but I would like to say that surely

President Nixon has a plan to get our

prisoners home when he goes to Moscow

and China. We are expecting it and we

will ask when he comes back. This to me

is the way one big chance for our men.

And I'm putting a lot of hope on it. I

know they tell us not to, but when you

don't have anything else, you do it. And

I I'm waiting for those trips anxiously

and hope he will. I sincerely hope for

our

um case and for his also that he does

put those prisoners number

one. The war in Vietnam may be over. The

war in Indochina continues. In Laos,

American planes, including B-52s,

blasted the already blasted northeast

corner of that country. But on this the

first day of the Vietnam peace, it is

clear that you do not end a war that has

lasted a generation with a final

whistle. Ceasefire violations continue,

but even in these there is some comfort.

The violations have all the appearance

of a last frantic grab by both sides for

a few more miserable hamlets, a few more

broken lives. In the United States, for

most of us, it is simply another Sunday.

Most of us have been untouched by this

war, except perhaps by anguish. For the

families of prisoners, a vigil, in some

cases more than eight years long, is

about to end. And for a few of the

families of men reported missing, the

news they could only hope for. Their men

are prisoners. Well, what was this day

of peace like in Vietnam?

[Music]

The bells of the great Saigon Cathedral

told for the first mass of this first

day of peace. The eternally young faces

of the Vietnamese army appear slightly

puzzled by it all. Most of them have

never known of Day of Peace in their

[Music]

country. American guns are silent today

in Vietnam. The most sophisticated

military machine ever set loose sits

dormant on the miles of pavement we

poured across Vietnam in places a decade

ago that sounded exotic. Today we know

them too well. Long Bin, Cameron,

Anleu, and at Binwa, even from the air,

the national cemetery for South Vietnam

spreads to the horizon. How many really

died, we'll never know. The so-called

friendly body count is as unreliable as

the enemy body count. At Quang Tree, the

bones of a city stand erect. North and

South Vietnamese guns continued through

the day, spilling American and Russian

shells at each other. Quang Tree, we are

told, in this the most statistical war

we've ever fought, is the most damaged

city in South Vietnam. Having helped to

destroy it, we will now pay to rebuild

it. But away from where the two sides

were shooting at each other, the two

sides did what would have been

unthinkable only yesterday. They showed

the flag. Saigon government troops

carefully staking their claim up near

the so-called

DMZ. And only a few hundred yards away,

the communists stake their claim on a

tree to their patch of battered,

defoliated jungle.

And back in Saigon today, the ancient

creaking plane of the International

Control Commission made its first

journey in years from Hanoi to Tonsenut

airport, carrying the North Vietnamese

representative to the new ceasefire

commission. This is Ed Bradley with

Droop 17th Cavalry. Just one and a half

hours before ceasefire, Army helicopters

took off from Daang Air Base on their

daily first light mission. This one the

last American combat mission of the war.

The base had been rocketed every day

since the announcement of ceasefire. One

American was killed on Saturday, and no

one wanted to die during these last few

hours. The hope for a quiet countdown of

the final few minutes was just that, a

hope that was not to be realized.

Everybody knew what it meant. Incoming.

The Nang was being rocketed again just

30 minutes before the ceasefire.

The return to base and the end of the

American combat role in Vietnam was an

impressive sight. Every copter that

could get in the air was up and they

flew by the base returning from combat

for the last time. That's it.

War is over now. That's it.

And then a toast. It's to the best damn

air cavalry troop in the United States

Army.

Most of the men said it was hard to

believe that it was all over. I don't

know. I'm just It's just so damn happy

that everybody's going

home. I didn't expect it to end. You

didn't expect it to end? I I didn't I

had never thought about it really. How

do you feel now that it's all over? I

feel fine. You're going to feel better,

huh? I'm feeling better.

This is Bert Quent in Saigon, a city

that doesn't look as though it's

celebrating the end of a war. There's no

joy here. A little hope maybe, and a

good deal of apprehension. People just

don't know what to expect. On the

outskirts of the city, the war continued

until nearly the last minute, only an

hour and a half before the 8:00 a.m.

Saigon time deadline. 19 rockets were

fired at the Tonsenoot air base. Most of

them fell short and landed in the

village of Hanong T inhabited mostly by

military dependents and refugees. At

least one civilian was killed. 15 were

wounded. When 8:00 came, the streets of

Saigon were nearly empty. People seemed

reluctant to venture from their homes.

Many had bought extra food supplies the

day before so they would not have to go

out at what they considered such an

uncertain time. A siren sounded the

start of the

ceasefire. Church bells

rang and that was it. As the bells

echoed, President Tu went on television.

His tone was somber. For years to come,

times will be difficult. If the

communists fail to take over the south

politically, he said they will start

another war. The communists will violate

this ceasefire. As he said, they have

violated the 1954 Geneva agreement for

the past 18

years. Don Webster in the hamlet of

Zambong. Zumbong has always been a

trouble spot. The South Vietnamese

estimate that 45% of these people are

Vietkong sympathizers. In other words,

one out of two is the enemy. The problem

is knowing who. Before the ceasefire,

almost no resident of Zambong thought

the war was really over. The ceasefire

was looked on as simply another tactic

designed to allow the Americans to get

out with at least a semblance of

respectability. Yet, the eventual

outcome of the war may be decided here

and in 10,000 other hamlets just like

it. The war was not won by the Americans

who are leaving. It will not be stopped

by the ceasefire commissioners who are

arriving. It was not won by North

Vietnamese terrorism, nor by South

Vietnam's often pathetic army. Prior to

ceasefire time, the South Vietnamese

army herded all the people of Zumbong to

a central point, took away all their

identification cards, and checked them

against a list of who is supposed to be

in the village. They had heard rumors

there would be trouble here at ceasefire

time. This was an attempt to stop it.

But as usual, the soldiers could find

nothing a miss. And the same old routine

of searching the hamlet yielded nothing

either. The people of Zambong learned

long ago not to hide contraband. What

they do hide is their

loyalty. Muin Van Chan, aged 53, was

busy repairing his roof. A South

Vietnamese militia man asked him if he'd

seen anything a miss. No, he said, "No

trouble." What he did not say, and

perhaps not know, is that a few hours

later, this house would be in the midst

of a firefight and in Vietkong control.

His roof has a short life

expectancy. The soldiers passed by Mrs.

Nwin Thihao, aged 48. What they did not

know or at least couldn't prove is that

her husband is away working as a

Vietkong. In fact, he's an official in

the National Liberation Front. She goes

through her daily chores and to

strangers she says her husband is dead.

Others in the village confide he's very

much alive and sometimes comes back at

night. In fact, they even have three

young children. But no one in Zambong

informs on Mrs. how and she is not under

arrest. If someone did tell on her, the

Vietkong might retaliate in this hamlet

and everyone knows that. Then as the sun

rises about an hour before the

ceasefire, the Vietkong make their move.

They take over the village of

Zambong. The South Vietnamese militia

men here retaliate with a combat

assault. The hour of the ceasefire

passing virtually unnoticed. Heavy

fighting both before and after. About

200 yards from the front line, the

communists launched their tactic. They

raise a Vietkong flag to signify Zumbong

is under their control. You may be able

to see it in the distance. Blue and red

sitting at top a mound of

hay. Naturally, the South Vietnamese

want to get it down, but it may be there

as an ambush tactic. The officer in

charge radios for instructions. Take the

village, he's told. No mention of the

ceasefire. And once again, the same

pathetic scene in Vietnam. Civilians

grabbing a few personal belongings and

fleeing the area. Many of them don't

know where they will go. They have no

idea when they will get back. And the

plumes of smoke and flames indicate not

much may be left to come back to. To

them, ceasefire day is a

disaster. Finally, the South Vietnamese

destroy the Vietkong flag, not by going

right up to it, but instead by shooting

at the mound of hay and setting it

ablaze. The Vietkong flag burns, too.

The fighting goes on for hours, no

question of anyone's watch having been

slightly off and not knowing the

fighting was supposed to end. and

refugees and their animals continue to

pour out of Zambong, headed for what

they hope will be safety. It's hard to

know who's at fault for this massive

ceasefire violation. It's clear there

was plenty of firing on both sides. What

is also clear is that if shooting like

this continues, it could jeopardize the

entire ceasefire agreement. Don Webster,

CBS News, near Sambong Hamlet, South

Vietnam.

The Penton today is telling families of

men listed as missing in action whether

their men are alive or dead. This based

on the list of prisoners supplied by

North Vietnam yesterday. Unhappily, most

of the 1300 men reported missing are

confirmed dead. But for a few families,

today is a very special day. For Colleen

Henderson of Milwaukee, all she knew was

that her husband, Air Force Captain

William Henderson, was shot down while

on a rescue mission near the DMZ last

April. She feared that her month-old

baby would be fatherless. But last

night, she received a telephone call.

Well, my father-in-law called and there

was really a lot of noise in the

background on the phone call and then he

just said Colleen like that. And I

thought, "Oh, it's him." And he was

going to tell me and then he just said,

"Bill's on the list." and I just started

screaming. That was the first thing I

could do. And then he said he didn't

have any more information yet, but he

was on the list from South Vietnam. So,

he was still in shock and I think I was

too. And then he just said that he had

to call mom and you know, Billy's

brother and sister at home. And so then

he said, "Well, we'll talk to you when I

get home." Have you heard from any

official Air Force or Pentagon people?

Yes, I heard this morning from my Air

Force officer at about 10:00 to 5:00

this morning and he told me that he was

confirming it that Bill was on the list

that came out of the Pentagon and he had

to make it official even though my

father-in-law did tell us.

So, the war that started over a disputed

incident in the Gulf of Tonken 8 and a

half years ago, the war that sent more

than half a million Americans halfway

around the world. The war that killed

more than 56,000 of them. The war that

helped make part of a generation of

young men heroin addicts. The war that

made us understand the word alienation.

The war that vilified this country in

the councils of otherwise friendly

nations. The war that made us at least

as conscious of the blood on our own

hands as the blood on our enemies. That

war is at least partly over.

If the war is over for the United

States, there are millions of South

Vietnamese who doubt that they have seen

the last of it. And thousands of them

have already left their homeland, gone

into exile for fear of what could happen

in the future in Saigon. It is

interesting that most of the staff of

the South Vietnamese embassy in Paris

have chosen over these past years not to

go home at the end of their tour of

duty, but to stay in France. And their

example has apparently persuaded many of

their countrymen.

[Music]

In recent years, more than 50,000 South

Vietnamese have fled to Paris to escape

the war. They have joined the quarter

million Vietnamese already living in

France. Some have been here for

generations. Many have French

citizenship. And the number of South

Vietnamese in France grows each day as

diplomats and high-ranking military

officers. And those with the money or

the connections buy their way out of

South Vietnam. To leave South Vietnam is

no easy matter. It is mainly the rich,

the powerful, the well-connected who

could obtain the treasured exit visa

that will allow them to quit the

uncertainty of life in their own

country. One Vietnamese who left and

refused to be filmed told us how it

works. How the ones with money are able

to buy their way out. You must pay the

equivalent of

$4,000. The Vietnamese in Saigon gave

the money to a travel agency and these

travel agencies pay people at the

Ministry of Defense, the Ministry of

Interior. There is corruption. An

official exit visa can cost as much as

$4,000. And not all of that money goes

to the government. Much of it ends up in

the hands of corrupt officials who make

the arrangements. Most of the Emigra

head for

Paris. France is not an alien land to

them. Many of them already know the

language. And there are in Paris today

more than 400 Vietnamese restaurants

where they can ease the shock of

transplantation. Most Vietnamese

families and restaurant owners come to

the Plasmo to buy the vegetables, the

condiments, the specialties imported

from Vietnam. Miss Got Titan left Saigon

9 months ago. Now she works weekends in

her father's Vietnamese grocery store.

Because she is a girl and so not subject

to the draft, it cost her family only

the equivalent of $2,000 to buy an exit

visa for her. If you were a rich man in

my country, uh you want to go out the

country, you pay about uh 3 million

Vietnamese fiasa. You can go out the

country. Who do you give the money to?

Uh I don't know but uh I heard about

that uh there is a a secret system

uh a secret system

uh to do the visa to go out the country

and uh many the rich the rich man go out

the country by that way. You see

this family arrived in Paris last

summer. They began their journey to

France from Australia where Mr. Tienne

was the second secretary at the

Vietnamese embassy. Because he had

worked in Australia with the Buddhist

peace movement, he was recalled to

Saigon, but he feared prison if he went

back. So he, his wife, and their six

children spent their life savings to go

to Paris. They own a small restaurant

where Mrs. Jen works from morning till

night. And then often the whole family

sleeps in the restaurant after their few

customers leave.

Good night, baby. Night. Another South

Vietnamese restaurant star in Paris is

General Nuin Khan. Remember him? Well,

back in 1965, he had his brief year in

the sun as Vietnam's chief of state

before he was ousted in Saigon's game of

musical chairs.

One day chief of state in

Saigon, the next day restaurant tour in

Paris. We You of course were ejected.

You were thrown out of your country. But

other Vietnamese leave of their own free

will and accord. And in fact, they are

anxious to leave. By what means do they

come? Do they pay somebody in Saigon in

order to get a visa?

That's one way to do or not to pay if

you you have some how to say that

friendly very high people friendly

inside.

Perhaps the most exalted Vietnamese

exile in Paris is the emperor of

Vietnam, his majesty

Baai. Like General Khan, he didn't buy

his way out as most South Vietnamese

must do. He was thrown out by President

Zim in 1954.

While his subjects suffered through the

war, Baai remained safely exiled in the

south of France, living lavishly,

expensively today. However, he told me

he is broke. His expensive villa has

been sold, his only income and

occasional check from his 80year-old

mother who still lives in Vietnam.

If life in exile has not been too

difficult for Emperor Baai, neither has

it been unpleasant for many South

Vietnamese of draft age whose parents

happen to have either the connections or

the money. If some Americans deplore the

tens of thousands of young American boys

have gone into exile to avoid fighting

in

Vietnam, what about the tens of

thousands of South Vietnamese of draft

age now happily exiled in schools all

around the world? the US, Canada,

Germany, Switzerland, Australia, and

France. Belgium harbors more overseas

Vietnamese of draft age than any other

country. Most are in the university town

of Leazge. In 1968, there were just 50

Vietnamese students in Belgium. Today,

there are 2,000. And a draft age student

can stay on virtually forever simply by

changing from one course of studies to

another. How much longer do these

students intend to stay on at school?

Three more years. Three more years. I

have uh three three more years. I have

three more years. If these young

Vietnamese, the children of the

affluent, the well-connected, suffer

misgivings because they are not fighting

alongside their countrymen. We did not

detect it.

We are told the arms struggle is over,

at least for now. But the political

struggle will go on. And these young

South Vietnamese students, some of them

the children of the Saigon

establishment, some of them from the

affluent middle class, must now make a

choice. To stay in Belgium or France or

Switzerland, or to return to their

homeland and engage themselves in the

coming contest, the most telling

contest, the one that will spell the

future of all of Vietnam.

Tonight, a story that will shock and

dismay you, for it's a charge of a CIA

coverup. One man's report of America's

last unhappy days in South Vietnam, the

evacuation from Vietnam. You've been

reading stories about it the last two

days in your newspapers. But no one has

yet heard directly from the ex CIA man

responsible for this charge of coverup.

He was the senior intelligence analyst

of North Vietnamese strategy for the

United States Central Intelligence

Agency in Vietnam. He was awarded the

CIA's Medal of Merit for his work in

Vietnam. Frank Snap is his name. Now 34

years old, Frank Snap told us he joined

the CIA in 1968 to avoid the draft, but

he wound up doing two tours of duty in

Vietnam for the

CIA. Everyone who works for the agency

signs an oath that he will submit for

prior clearance and censorship any

public comment he intends to make about

anything he has learned inside the

agency. Frank Sn will tell us why he now

sees fit to break that oath. A word

about the circumstances surrounding this

report. Snep came to 60 Minutes several

months ago to tell us about his charges

and about a book he was writing on the

subject. A book called A Decent

Interval. Because the CIA had gone to

court in the past to suppress uncensored

comment by a former agent, 60 Minutes

secretly filmed the interview you're

about to see. In order to understand

fully just what it is that SNEP is about

to disclose and the seriousness of his

charges against the CIA and other

individuals, let us first go back to

April 29th, 1975. The CBS Evening News.

Dan Rather filling in for Walter

Kronite. South Vietnam now is under

communist control. Early today,

beginning with a jeep load of rather

ragtag Vietkong soldiers, then truck

after truck of heavily armed North

Vietnamese regular troops, the

communists entered Saigon in force. Then

a report from Saigon streets by

correspondent Ed Bradley. The crowds of

Americans and other foreigners lined up

at installations around Saigon waiting

for buses was being used. It told the

Vietnamese that this was the end of the

line for most of those who wanted to

leave their country. this would be their

last chance. Some Americans who pushed

towards the bus tried to pull their

Vietnamese wives and children along with

them.

There were desperate scenes when

families separated and crying out for

help, pleading not to be left behind,

clutching the last straw of vote. We all

decided to try and reach the United

States embassy. We had to push and shove

our way through a crowd of several

hundred Vietnamese trying to scale the

walls only to be knocked back by US

Marines. Once inside the compound, it

was just a matter of waiting your turn

for a helicopter to take you to one of

the ships on station off the Vietnamese

coast. The American fleet had been

having problems since the start of the

evacuation. South Vietnamese pilots just

hovered long enough to unload their

passengers and then headed to the side

of the ships and just jumped out with

their life vest to be picked up by US

sailors. Their helicopters crashing into

the sea. That was the story we heard and

saw on the United States last day in

Vietnam. But what was the real story?

Snip concludes in his book, "In terms of

squandered lives, blown secrets, and the

betrayal of agents, friends, and

collaborators, the CIA's handling of the

evacuation from Vietnam was an

institutional

disgrace." Who were the people left

behind? Snip says they were hardly

faceless Vietnamese just trying to get

out. Hundreds, perhaps thousands of

them, he says, were men and women who

had worked for the CIA, for the US

embassy. They were people who were

exposed for years to some of the United

States closely held national security

information. For instance, we left

behind on the

tarmac or outside the walls of the

embassy 400 to 500 members of Saigon

Special Police Force. We had trained

them. They were in imminent jeopardy

from the

communists. We also left behind about

400 to 1,200 members of the CIO, the

Central Intelligence Organization. We'd

also train them. We also left behind

about

30,000 people who had worked for the

Phoenix program. The Phoenix program,

which was the counterterrorist uh

operation mounted against the communists

during the mid 1960s under CIA

direction, collaborators, defectors,

translators, clerks, radio operators,

police collaborators,

left behind. Left behind often just

outside the embassy wall.

In other words, we got the wrong

Vietnamese. All these promises by the

administration that we would get

high-risk Vietnamese out of the country,

they went by the board in the chaos of

the evacuation. When the CIA abandoned

play coup earlier, you're right. In

their haste to remove themselves, they

committed a host of sins for which any

intelligence operative should be drawn

and quartered. That's right. Specified.

in their haste to to get out of the path

of the advancing North Vietnamese army,

they left documents behind and they also

left behind one of our primary agents.

In other words, the CIA guys did not do

their job. They bugged out. You describe

all of this leaving behind of people who

had worked with us or for us Vietnamese

a callous act of betrayal on the part of

the CIA. In some cases, betrayal was

involved. We saved the people in the

white skin. We left behind the

Vietnamese.

You say in your book that the massive

files of the South Vietnamese Central

Intelligence Organization identifying

defectors, collaborators, prisoners,

anyone who had helped us or seemed

likely

to were left behind. That's correct.

When the the North Vietnamese rolled

into Saigon on April 30th,

commanderin-chief found these files

intact. If an experienced counter

intelligence operative, say for the

Soviet KGB or for North Vietnamese

intelligence, put all this data

together, he could begin to develop a

picture of how the United States

operates in a crisis. And this is

strategic intelligence anyway you cut

it. What you are painting, Mr. Snip, is

a picture of an absolute CIA botch at

the end in Vietnam. It was a failure of

leadership. There were a lot of young

operatives on the ground who violated or

overstepped the orders from the men on

high in an effort to save the Vietnamese

who uh depended on them. Then who are

you pointing at? Thomas Polgar, CIA

station chief in Saigon. Indeed, Mike.

Mr. Pulgar must bear primary

responsibility because it was his job to

organize this evacuation for the CIA.

Are there others? Absolutely. Director

Colby, CIA Director William Colby, who

failed to perceive the need

for intensified evacuation planning in

time. And what about Henry Kissinger?

Well, there's no question that during

Saigon's final days, March and April of

1975, Kissinger was making policy and he

was abusing people who disagreed with

him. During a a Washington special

action group session in early April,

Slesinger said, "We

must begin this evacuation now." James

Schlesinger, the Secretary of Defense,

Secretary of Defense. And Kissinger

said, "Well, you're just trying to cover

your ass." And he did the same thing

with Colby. Kissinger accused him of

trying to cover his ass. You know this

for a fact. How do you know this? From

people who were in the session. The

evacuation was botched, says Snap,

because the United States waited too

long to get it underway. And Henry

Kissinger, he says, was at the root of

it. Kissinger was trying to get

additional money out of Congress to help

the South Vietnamese to hold out.

Therefore, he held off on evacuation

plans. When it appeared finally by

midappril that this additional aid was

superfluous, Saigon was going down the

drain anyway. The South Vietnamese army

was disintegrating all across the

country.

Then another gambit was tried and that

involved the Soviets. What happened

according to Snap is that Kissinger

approached Soviet ambassador de

Brillinion to see if the Soviets

wouldn't intercede with the North

Vietnamese to permit the Americans

enough time for a safe and graceful exit

from Vietnam. In other words, Kissinger

was saying to the Soviets, you look, you

help us to get a negotiated settlement

in Saigon or at least uh free time for

an evacuation. And they led him to

believe that that all this was possible.

That is correct, Mike. And Kissinger

bought their story.

He bought their story

because he wanted so much for the

negotiation to work, coalition to

government to work, for some kind of

political deal to work to bail Saigon

out. But according to Snap, all this

hope for a negotiated settlement and a

chance for the Americans to get out

gracefully. All this flew in the face of

intelligence received by the CIA in

Saigon. You had specific information

that the North Vietnamese would not

agree to a negotiated peace with a

coalition government but wanted to push

right on to Saigon. That's correct. From

your top agent inside the North

Vietnamese leadership.

You made that report. I made it twice

because Washington and and Pulargar and

the rest they were not accepting our

intelligence that I I met with the agent

directly and again he told me the same

thing. There is no chance for a

negotiated settlement. He was right.

Right down to the air strike Mike we

suffered an air strike on the final day

on the 28th I should say. He had

predicted that. How did you get a spy in

the top North Vietnamese leadership? He

had been implanted a deep penetration, a

man who had been there for years, very

trusted, and he would bring out

information regularly, and he had helped

us predict the Ted offensive of 1968.

Didn't do us much good. Didn't do us

much good because the analysts back in

Washington chose to ignore that

information just as the analysts at the

top levels of the US government in the

final days of Saigon chose to disregard

his information.

You had spies in Tu's cabinet. That's

right. We had not only spies, we had the

cabinet bugged so that the South

Vietnamese could hardly cough without

our picking

up the data. The North Vietnamese had

spies in Tu's cabinet. They did a far

better job of monitoring Tu's cabinet

than we did because they believe their

intelligence. We didn't believe ours.

Why? Go back to the old problem of

wishful thinking at the top, Mike. and

uh the problems that Kissinger was

having his desperate

determination to keep us faithful to an

ally to the end. Another factor in the

confusion at the end says Snip was the

unique character of US ambassador to

Saigon Graeham Martin. Martin was a cold

warrior in the old stripe. He could not

conceive of being beaten by communists.

He had lost a son in Vietnam. His his

life was fraught with all sorts of

tragedy and he was determined to make

this last stand on April 10th to a group

of American businessmen in Saigon. Did

he not say reinvest your money in

Saigon? Well, that statement came from

the deputy chief of mission. But he was

echoing Martin. Reinvest. He said Saigon

is as sound as the American dollar. That

was only 3 weeks before the collapse.

You say that in his effort to shore up

the two government, he failed to report

to Washington on the slipping morale of

the Vietnamese army and of the

intolerable corruption inside the South

Vietnamese government. When Ambassador

Martin arrived in Saigon, he distributed

a memo to the embassy. And in the memo,

he said, "Gentlemen, we will not engage

in any proclogical examinations of the

South Vietnamese body politic." This led

a lot of us to conclude that uh

reporting on corruption would simply not

be acceptable in the uh the front

office. And so that kind of reporting

began to dry up. What about security in

the countryside? Same same thing

happened because because Mike, you

couldn't admit the South Vietnamese

morale was bad or that security was

terrible in the countryside and still

hope to rally a reluctant Congress

behind a new aid bill. This was always

the thrust of Martin's policy. We've got

to rally Congress. Was he I know it's

difficult to say. Was he consciously

lying or was he just doing a diplomat's

job of trying to get the job done no

matter what? Well, Ambassador Martin

used to say from time to time, we must

stretch the facts to fit the case. I

wouldn't say Ambassador Martin was

lying. He was simply stretching the

facts to fit the case. You say that

almost to the end, Ambassador Martin

held out the hope that perhaps if the

Congress turned down aid for South

Vietnam, Saudi Arabia might pick up the

tab. Where in the world did that story

come from? I was sitting with the

station chief Tom Pulgar in his office

at the end of March and he said uh he

said, "Oh, we we now have a chance. We

now have a chance because the Saudi

Arabians like Kissinger. King Fisizel

likes Kissinger and he's agreed to give

money to Kissinger to help out the South

Vietnamese. You mean the Congress

personal favor to Henry Kissinger?

According to Snap, even after King Fasil

was assassinated by a disaffected young

relative, Ambassador Martin still had

hopes for aid from Saudi Arabia. As a

matter of fact, Mike, as late as April

17th, only two weeks before the

collapse, Martin was urging Kissinger by

cable to revive this idea with the Saudi

Arabians. As a matter of fact, the same

thing was done with the Iranians. We

were seeking aid from from the Iranians

to help the South Vietnamese. Ambassador

Martin has repeatedly justified his

holding off on evacuation by claiming

first that he had strong hopes for a

negotiated settlement and second that a

premature evacuation would have shown

panic in Saigon. I believe Ambassador

Martin was overdrawing the danger of

panic in the streets. He began planting

horror stories in the press around

Saigon concerning a possible blood bath.

Now, Martin was trying, I think, in this

respect, to generate sympathy for the

South Vietnamese cause abroad by

suggesting the communists were eating

little children. In effect, saying that

Martin planted these stories in Saigon

with the Saigon Exactly. reporters.

Exactly. The US reporters. That's right.

The whole idea of a blood bath was

conjured out of thin air. We had no

intelligence to indicate the South

Vietnamese were facing a blood bath. To

what degree was the press had by the

United States government in Vietnam?

Kaisch of the Chicago Daily News, George

MacArthur of the Los Angeles Times,

Robert Chaplan of the New Yorker, Bud

Merrick of US News and World Report. All

of these reporters were favored

journalists. We would leak to them on a

selected basis, draw them into our

trust, into our confidence, and then we

could shape their reporting through

further leaks because they trusted us.

For instance, says Snap, in the final

days, the US embassy continued to leak

stories pushing the chances for a

negotiated settlement. And one

particular reporter who bit all this

hook, line, and sinker was Malcolm Brown

of the New York Times. He and Poggar

became very close during Saigon's final

days to the point that we were using

Brown on April 28th to pass messages to

the communist delegation at Tonsenoot.

And again, Brown was not operating as a

CI operative or agent or any some such.

He was simply, I guess, behaving as he

thought a good citizen ought to behave.

And was he printing the information

which you were passing back and forth?

That's right. So, he was simply a good

reporter with a hell of a source. That's

the way you could put it. Yes. The

sources were giving him disinformation,

to use a Soviet term, and he was

printing disinformation.

And how was he to know? He was getting

it from the ambassador and the station

chief. It would have been impossible for

him to know. Do you know of American

journalists paid by the CIA? I know of

foreign journalists paid by the CIA

whose stories appear in the New York

Times and various other respected

newspapers. who I cannot identify

because as I have pointed out in the

book I am against dealing with sources

and methods explicitly. You mean this is

going on today? It continues today by

lines in the times New York in various

newspapers. That's correct. But what

dismayed Snip most of all after the

evacuation was the attempt by those

responsible at the top to put a

different face on what had transpired.

What you're talking about is a

calculated coverup. That's right, Mike.

And not merely a cover up, but also a

whitewash. Director Colby was leaking to

select or favor journalists his version

of what had taken place. This was also

going on in the State Department and in

the Pentagon. Their version of what had

taken place glossed over the mistakes.

Snip says it was on the insistence of

Henry Kissinger that many of those

government officials leaked material to

selected reporters. Kissinger said that

uh the agency and various other uh

departments of government should open

their files to certain journalists. What

journalists? What journalist? Mike, I

won't get into names because I happen to

like the journalists involved and they

were simply operating as good

journalists. They were picking up a good

story where they could get it. Why would

he want them to be briefed? Because I

think Kissinger wanted to project his

version of the collapse to make sure

that u he came out not as a villain, not

as responsible for what had taken place.

You say William Colby met with one of

them and provided a compilation of our

top secret reporting from Vietnam,

including sources and methods. That's

right, Mike. During sometime in early

1976, Colby turned over to uh the

reporters in question this

document. This document is a compilation

of all of KBY's briefings before WA was

the crisis management

group. And it is designed, the

selections are designed to put Colby in

a very good light. It originally said at

the bottom, top secret sensitive. That's

right. And that was the way it was shown

to the reporters in question. That was

the way it was shown to them. It was a

It was still a classified document.

You're talking about the head of the

CIA, the director. That's right. That's

right. Snap's familiarity with events

that transpired in Saigon and Washington

and even in Hanoi during the Vietnam War

gave him insight and knowledge shared by

few others. He talked of the Paris peace

talks in 1971 and72. According to your

book, during the time that he was

negotiating the peace settlement with

the North Vietnamese, Kissinger did it

with such secrecy that even the CIA, you

people had to find out what Kissinger

was up to from CIA spies inside North

Vietnam's leadership. That's right. We

first learned of the secret negotiations

or the progress of the secret

negotiations Kissinger was conducting

with late Octo from our best agent

inside the communist command. As a

matter of fact, Kissinger so misled the

South

Vietnamese that on the very day of the

ceasefire, President Tu didn't even have

a complete copy of the Paris

Accord. He didn't know what Kissinger

had negotiated for him. I asked Sep

about another story in his book. the CIA

wanted to kidnap North Vietnamese

leaders. Uh Kissinger during the latter

stages of the Paris negotiations in

72 and uh late 71 was anxious to find

some way to get those negotiations off

dead center. At his direction, we with

in cooperation with the Pentagon put

together contingency studies on how to

kidnap the North Vietnamese leadership.

It was rather amusing study because uh

we couldn't even identify where the

North Vietnamese lived much

less kidnap them. You recount another

story about another ambassador Ellsworth

Bunker financing or offering to finance

a campaign for General Dwang Van Min to

run against President Tu in 1971 for the

presidency of South Vietnam. The uh US

government would do almost anything in

those days to legitimize Q's rule. In

order to give the impression there was

actual opposition to him, Ambassador

Bunker went to big men, a neutralist

leader, and offered to give him $3

million if he would run as a strawor

candidate, if you will, and against you.

What did Men do? Men said, "Why should I

run and lose?" He said, "I'm not going

to take your money." and uh in effect

kick Bunker out of his office.

You write, "Among those responsible for

the ultimate North Vietnamese victory,

the spy in Tu's entourage must rank high

on the credit list." Can you specify who

he was? We think that there were four

candidates, including the head of the

military security service, the South

Vietnamese Counter Espionage Service. We

had never moved against these men. And

we had never recommended they be brought

to trial because we had helped to to to

promote their

careers. And if we suddenly found them

guilty of of espionage, it would have

been awfully embarrassing. Well, one of

them betrayed us. One of them was a

North Vietnamese spy. Another story. In

the last days before the evacuation, up

until the last minute, Mike, the South

Vietnamese government was working to get

out of the country its 220 million in

gold, that which made up what remained

of its national treasury. For a variety

of reasons, this goal was never

evacuated. One of the reasons it was not

evacuated is the man who controlled it,

the economics minister in the last

Saigon regime was working for North

Vietnamese intelligence. But other money

was secretly taken out. For instance,

says Snap, in the chaotic hours of the

evacuation, US embassy employees had

been ordered to burn stacks of American

money left over at the embassy. It

almost got burned up, Mike, but um the

fellows who were to do the burning

absconded with some of the funds. Uh

they took it out under the dresses of

their Vietnamese girlfriends in the

amount of $80 to $90,000. You know that

for a fact? I know this for a fact. You

were chosen to drive President 2 to

Tanzanet airport in Saigon on the night

of his own evacuation from Saigon to

Taiwan. What was that night like? We

showed up at the rendevous point at

Prime Minister Kim's house uh slightly

after nightfall. There was all sorts of

sporadic weapons fire out beyond the air

base and we were nervous as as hell

because we had gotten reports that uh

Key Walow Key was planning to

assassinate Tu. Well, as the evening

progressed, Tu finally showed up. He

showed up in a gray Mercedes. As he got

out, he was in a gray sharkin suit, his

hair slick back, his face oiled. He

looked like a model for a Far Eastern

edition of Gentleman's Quarterly. In the

meantime, several of his aids had run

out of the woods with big suitcases.

They just materialized out of nowhere,

and we said, "Can we help you pack these

suitcases in the back of the car?" "No,

no, no. We'll we'll take care of it."

And as they put the suitcases in to the

back of the cars, we heard the tinkle of

metal on metal, like Chinese wind

chimes. What you're saying is that he

was taking gold with him. He'd ship most

of his gold out of the country in early

April. This was simply the the what was

left over. There was talk that Marshall

Key was involved in the drug business

not just in Vietnam but in Southeast

Asia. Would the CIA know about that?

These gentlemen at the top of the TU

government and during Keys time were

being protected by the embassy against

investigations by narcotics agent

American narcotics agents. The reason

this was so, these people, these

officials were so important to us, we

couldn't have them accused of trading in

drugs. The CIA in fact, frustrated

various probes into the drug problem

from time to time whenever an important

agent, let's say, was involved. This is

a very important point, Mike, because in

recent years, the CIA has reporting

responsibilities on the drug question

abroad. There is a conflict of interest.

Sometimes we don't want a drug

trafficker arrested because he's

operating as an agent. So the trafficker

is not arrested. Snip says the CIA

itself operated at times outside the

law. In order to get more funds for its

Vietnamese operations, it would trade on

the money black market in Hong Kong. To

make those funds go further, we would

deal on the black market in Hong Kong

and get a much better rate in

pasters. And um then we can mount

operations. we might not have been able

to otherwise. It was an economy measure

if you will and it didn't seem to

trouble CIA officials that went against

the US government's efforts to

was there corruption in the CIA in

Vietnam in 1973 mid73 CIA auditors in

Saigon discovered that a very high

ranking agency official who was

operating in the central part of the

country had misused funds. He had not

applied his operational funds to

operations to develop agent networks and

what have you. Instead, he'd use them

for god knows what. This is a very

important case because the the territory

which he was responsible for is the

territory where the communist struck

first during the final offensive in

1975. And it is not too much to say that

the CI officers corruption contributed

to our intelligence failure. We weren't

able to pinpoint what the communists

were going to do in the highlands

because we had never developed the agent

networks.

And what happened to that agent? He was

called into Saigon, sent home, and then

released from the

CIA. But he was not prosecuted. He was

never prosecuted because to do so would

have been an embarrassment to the

agency. When Frank Snap returned to CIA

headquarters in Langley, Virginia after

the evacuation, he wanted to tell the

story of the de to debacle to his

superiors. When I came back from Saigon

after the collapse, I asked to be

allowed to do an afteraction report

detailing what had gone wrong. I was

told no one was interested. Later, I was

called in by um the CIA's inspector

general, and he told me that he was

putting together a document which KBY

could use to fend off congressional

probes into CIA conduct in Vietnam in

the final days. Well, I figured this was

not the kind of a afteraction report I

wanted to be associated with. They asked

you to fill out an affidavit and you

refused. What was in that affidavit? The

affidavit tried to attribute our

mistakes to local enemy action. In other

words, our failure to get people out,

this document said was due to local

enemy action. I refused to sign that

document because it simply wasn't true.

Finally, in January of 1976, Snip

resigned from the agency and began to

write his book.

All right. You have all these complaints

about the CIA and the American

evacuation, Mr. Snip, and now you're

going public. Why are you going public?

You swore. You swore that you would

not. You signed an oath that you would

not go public. That's right. You signed

that 16th September 1968. That's right.

If you read on in that, there is a

clause there that requires or specifies

that an officer can go and register his

complaints with appropriate authorities

in the agency. I tried to do this. I

wanted not to go public. I wanted to do

my afteraction report on the inside and

was rebuffed at every turn. I feel I

have met my obligation. Also, I think

the agency has made a mockery of the the

secrecy

system with its elect leaks to the press

in its efforts to whitewash its role in

the end. And for this reason, I regard

those secrets as being declassified. The

CIA knows that you've been writing this

book. That's correct. When they learned

of your intention, what did they do?

They called um several of my colleagues

in the agency in, tried to squeeze

information out of them, get them to

inform on me, and in fact try to force

me to identify the publishers I had been

in touch with in uh my preparations for

writing this book. They called uh in a

girl I had dated in the agency,

threatened to fire her unless she

informed on me. But this is standard

practice. To gain time, Snap had all

along assured the CIA he would submit

his book to them for review and possible

censorship, even though in the last few

months at least he has had no intention

of doing so. Have you told the CIA that

you are not going to submit this for

censorship? No, I have not. You really

think the CIA does not know how far this

has gone and the fact that you are

talking to us?

I think if they did, Mike, I would have

been enjoined. I think that they would

have gotten a court order to silence me.

I think it's also significant, and this

is important, I think should be brought

out. If the agency were operating in its

bad old ways, monitoring telephones,

surveilling people illegally, I wouldn't

have gotten this far. You're an arrogant

young man, aren't you?

That's the only way you can survive in

the CIA, Mike. By being positive,

arrogant, and hoping you know where

you're

going. We filmed that interview a month

ago. We have now checked with most of

the principles named by Snap in his

charges of botch and coverup. Almost all

of them describe his allegations as

nonsense. And they agree with Henry

Kissinger, who called Snap, quote, "A

man at the second level in Saigon,

10,000 m away from Washington, who could

not possibly have had any full

understanding and knowledge of what the

decisions were and how they were

reached." And all the principles we

contacted, Kissinger, Ambassador Martin,

Colby, CIA station chief Pulargar, deny

blame for the thousands of key

Vietnamese who were left behind in

jeopardy. One of them put it this way.

Retreat, he said, is the most difficult

maneuver under any conditions, and these

were hardly the best of

conditions. Having said that, the

various principles tended to point the

finger of blame at one another.

Ambassador Martin repeated his claim

that Washington had delayed too long in

granting authority to his embassy to

evacuate large numbers of

Vietnamese. But various of the others

criticized Martin's performance. One

calls him too strong willed. Another

said he was physically sick toward the

end. One called him batty. When asked

about it, Ambassador Martin told us,

"History will vindicate my performance

in

Vietnam." Henry Kissinger said the

administration's plan at the end was to

keep pushing the Congress for aid to the

South Vietnamese to keep the Saigon

government believing we were working for

them to avoid panic. For the same

reason, he says, there was no crash

evacuation of Americans. For had too

many Americans departed too quickly,

there was fear in Washington that the

South Vietnamese military would turn

their guns on their departing

allies. On the matter of Saudi Arabian

aid to South Vietnam, it turns out that

Kissinger did talk to King Fasil about

financial aid. Fasil told Kissinger that

South Vietnam would get cut rates on all

the oil they needed. To the South

Vietnamese, that would have been worth

$300 million a year. Kissinger also

denies any knowledge of a CIA plan to

kidnap North Vietnam's leaders. What

would we have done with them if we got

them? He asked. On other items, William

Kby denies categorically leaking any top

secret material. Ambassador Ellsworth

Bunker denies having offered General

Dwang Van Min $3 million to run for the

presidency against General Tu. Malcolm

Brown of the New York Times acknowledges

that he carried information from one

side to the other in the final days. He

says he was probably had to some degree

by both sides in the chaos at the end.

And finally, what about Frank Snip? CIA

director Stanfield Turner says he has

spoken with the Justice Department

looking to the possibility of

prosecution for Snap's breaking of his

oath of secrecy.

You've heard of the brave and ingenious

rescue of Jews from the Nazis by Oscar

Schindler and the courageous and

unlikely rescue of the American hostages

from Iran depicted in the movie Argo.

But nobody's heard of the daring and

dangerous rescue of the Vietnamese from

Saigon by John Rearen. It's a story

that's never been told before. It

happened nearly 40 years ago at the very

end of the Vietnam War when everyone was

trying to escape the communist

incursion. No one was paying attention

to an unassuming American banker who had

already been evacuated going back in to

save his stranded Vietnamese colleagues

and their families.

You got everybody, everybody worked at

the bank, spouses and children, right?

There were 105 in all who John Rearen

risking his own life rescued in the last

days of the war. How are you? Even now,

four decades later, when they see him,

you know they know he's the reason

they're alive. Today, they're leading

prosperous lives as American citizens

with children who are doctors and

lawyers and with grandchildren.

Isabelle, do you know my name? John.

John Reard. And you know my last name.

That's more than I know. John Rearen was

as far from Rambo and Mission Impossible

as you could get. Back in 1975, he was a

young banker, handsome and unattached,

working as the assistant manager of City

Bank in Saigon. They gave you a villa.

They gave me a villa. And you lived

well? I lived well. Yes. He hosted

barbecues at the villa for the bank's 34

Vietnamese employees, tellers,

secretaries, accountants. They were like

a family tying their future to American

banking. But that April, communist tanks

were barreling toward

Saigon. Hundreds of thousands were

leaving or trying

to. 3 weeks before Saigon fell, John got

an order from City Bank in New York.

Burn everything important and get out.

They said, "John, we've chartered a 747

Panam that's coming in, and we want you

to take all of your staff and leave the

bank and get out to this plane." By this

point, it dawns on you. What would

happen to those people if you didn't get

them out? Yeah. Some of them would be

killed. It's scary. It was very scary.

Cook Famvo worked in personnel. Chi Vu

was the head teller. They were hearing

rumors of reprisals by the Vietkong

against anyone working for the

Americans. Would you have been seen as

traitors, as spies?

The closer you to American, the more

they think you spy.

But their own government set up

checkpoints to keep people from leaving

the country. Without exit papers, the

staff had no way to escape. John didn't

want to leave without them, but the bank

ordered him out. So, he boarded that

Panama flight to Hong Kong alone, and

the employees were left to fend for

themselves. Did you feel abandoned? Yes.

Did John say anything to you when he

left? I was crying so much. I was

worried about my kids, my husband, and

he said, "No worry. I'll be there for

you. John and his bosses at City Bank

spent day and night in Hong Kong cooking

up rescue plans. They tried to send in

helicopters, even an oil tanker, and

they asked the US government to help,

all in vain. I felt we had all those

people back in there, and they were

counting on us. And many, many times in

the conversations we had with them, they

said to us, "Don't let us down. Please

do everything you can. Come on, dance.

Let's move it." But after two weeks of

trying, City Bank said enough. A manager

told the Hong Kong team, "If you try

some daring rescue mission, you're

fired." That night, John's immediate

boss, Mike McTai, a former Marine, asked

John to dinner. And just as my steak

arrived and I was picking up my knife

and fork, and he's making small talk all

and then suddenly he says, "You know,

John, one of us has to go back."

And I put down my knife and fork and

pushed that steak back. And I could feel

tears coming out of my eyes. And he

said, "Would you go back?"

Go back. Even though it meant losing his

job, possibly losing his life. And yet,

11 days before Saigon would fall, the

mildmannered banker defied his bank and

better judgment caught the very last

commercial flight into Saigon and walked

into the branch. And everybody comes

running around me and said, "What do we

do? What do we do? How how are we going

to get out of here?" and everything. But

you're there under the authority of who?

You're not working for City Bank

anymore. No one. I'm on my own. On his

own authority, John moved them with

their families, all 105 of them, into

his villa and another one nearby, so

they'd all be ready to go as a group

when and if he came up with a plan. He

told them to tell no one where they

were. Four days went by. Nothing was

working until a CIA agent told him the

only way out now is on US military cargo

planes that are evacuating Americans and

their dependents. He says, "The

evacuation has begun. Take your family

and go out to the airport and uh process

them through." And I said, "Well, you I

don't have a family." and he said, "Just

create a wife and children, no matter

who they are, and go out there and sign

the document." This is the first time

you've heard this idea. Yes. Yes. Try

and pass off his Vietnamese colleagues,

their spouses and children as his

family. There were 105 of them. Do you

say to him, "Are you kidding me? You

don't say kaka." You don't say. No,

because there had been so much

cockamania before that. This is the time

to jump on anything that looked like it

was going to float. You were at the end

of your rope. Yes, absolutely. It was

worth a try, but not for all of them at

once. He took the bank van and went out

to the airfield alone to see if it would

work. I walked into that processing area

and I somebody gave me a piece of paper.

He said,

"Listen on here." And I was fumbling for

what piece of paper I was going to have

to write this all down. And they said

just attach that to this piece of paper

and keep going. So it was a bit 14

names. You had a wife and 14 names.

Right. That was kind of ambitious. Son,

daughter, son. Yeah. This is the paper.

Wife, daughter, daughter, son. 14 kids,

some older than he was. He was

certifying on a US government document

that these were his children. Is your

heart pounding? Are you Yes, a little

bit. I certainly was nervous. Yes. He

was stunned when the officer, no

questions asked, stamped it and handed

John evacuation tags. He rushed to the

villa to pick the 15 up. Amazed that

such a crazy idea was actually working.

Do you remember when he came back what

happened? We're so happy. It's an

elation to see he's a lifesaver. He an

angel. But you had to keep it secret,

right? Yes. You never told your parents?

No. So, you never said goodbye? No.

Over the next four days, as fear gripped

the city, John repeated this ruse, going

back and forth to the airport 10 times,

filling out papers with groups of six or

eight. Did any of these officers ever

question you? And all this time, this

one man, he said, "Uh, haven't I seen

you here before?" I said, "No, sir.

Absolutely not." Bang. He just he I know

he wanted to get going, too. And and

then another time this man said, "Well,

you've got one heck of a big family

here, huh? You've been busy when you've

been I said, "Oh, yes. I've been here a

long time." And just stopped it again.

He just went went back and back and

back. Hard to believe it would be that

simple to do. We recently met with seven

of his daughters. They didn't think it

was all that simple since John was

separating them from their husbands. all

the staff women will go first and the

the husband will leave in a separate

group. At that moment, you know, I was

like

thinking will I ever meet see my husband

again?

Getting the husbands out was the most

dangerous. Yes, because you know they

were

um either in an army or working for the

government and if the MP they saw

anybody like that or they caught anybody

like that was shoot right away. John was

able to get the husband's fake adoption

papers as his sons and managed to get

some of them on what he thought was

safe, a US embassy evacuation bus like

this one to the airport. But the bus was

stopped by police looking for deserters.

The driver of the bus stopped at the

checkpoint, opened the door, and a

Vietnamese police officer stepped onto

the bus. And he looked up and down the

aisle. And I thought, "This is it. We're

all going to be taken off this bus and

shot." But in a split second, a woman

sitting in the front seat, a Vietnamese

woman, leaped up toward the policeman

and poked her hands into his stomach. I

thought she knifed him. And then I saw a

bag of something move from her hands to

his hands and I thought, "Aha, it's a

bribe." Bag of money. Bag of money. Yes.

The bribe worked. He waved them through.

The last group of men at the villa were

afraid to risk another bus. But John was

out of

ideas. Finally, one of the men thought

up an ingenious plan. They pretended

they were delivering bundles of money to

the airport in the bank van. They even

called the police for an escort like

this. And they had rifles and everything

and they just led us right through the

gates of the airport. You just went

right on the plane with these guys.

Right. They were safe. All of them. All

of them. One of them was Cheese's

husband. Every time I ask you about

John, you cry. He's so

kind, you know, to stay behind and take

took us out. He he did so much for

us. He saved my kids and my husband.

They flew on one of the last planes out

of Saigon.

After that, the only route of escape

were the helicopters at the US

embassy. Within a few days, Vietkong

tanks rolled into the presidential

palace. The war was over. What followed

were years of starvation and brutal

repression. Many who tried to escape by

boat drowned at sea. But thanks to John,

the city bank employees were flown out

to either Guam or the Philippines and

then all reunited at Camp Pendleton in

California. Do you think all this time

you've been fired? Yeah, I do still

think that. I'm not worried about it,

though. I'm still alive. They're all

alive. important things. Well, he wasn't

fired. He was given a big bonus and

hailed as a hero. At the reunion for

John in Long Island with a group of his

children,

we found out they call him

Papa, John. Yes, I do. I haven't talked

to you in so long. City Bank spent a

million dollars to resettle all the

employees, giving them and many of the

spouses jobs. never forget you too. At

the time in Saigon, he thought of his

colleagues at the bank as his Vietnamese

family. 40 years later, still his

family, but now as American as

Do you think the people who came here

have had good lives? Yes, I do. How many

children do you actually have now and

grandchildren? I just keep using the

number 105, but the grandchildren, don't

ask me. I I can't keep up with that.

It's called PTSD, post-traumatic stress

disorder. It's a psychological illness

that some say plagues more than a

million veterans of the Vietnam War.

Last Thursday night in a 1-hour

broadcast, Dan Rather explored the

symptoms, the nightmares, flashbacks,

drug abuse, violence, and suicide that

go along with the illness. What he

didn't go into was the lacadasical way

the government went about recognizing

the disorder and coming to grips with a

medical program known as vet centers to

deal with it. Tonight, Dan Rather

continues the story. Treatment began

here in the hills of Malibu, California.

His name is Shad Mishad and he took us

to a place where 20 years ago he found a

group of veterans sick with PTSD. They

mistrusted society, their government,

and especially the Veterans

Administration. They hid out here and

rebuilt

Vietnam. Guard posts, barbed wire. As

they gazed out over this, they could

imagine that they were back in Vietnam.

Oh, exactly. I was in Mishad, both a

veteran and a therapist, tried to help.

At the time, the only thing he could do

was to get them to talk it out. Talking

might keep them from self-destruction. I

came down here, one guy, one guy was

just bashing his his head and his hands.

He was all blooded and he was just

trying to kill himself and he wanted to

do it manly. He wasn't going to cut his

wrist or whatever. He just wanted to go

out violently.

20 years later, this is the result of

Michad's work. Small storefront meeting

places throughout the country called vet

centers. Congress insisted that the

reluctant Veterans Administration get

out of Washington and do something local

and innovative. Give them places to talk

it out. outside of VA hospitals. I came

out and they threw me out of army. They

tore off my stripes, tore off my medals,

and branded me to be a nut. I was

drinking a lot. I

was jumping on my my wife all the time,

jumping on my kids all the time. Their

symptoms range from violence to suicide.

I don't think there's a man here,

including

myself, that ain't thought about

snuffing it.

I'm in there all by myself except right

here. This is the only place where I'm

not by myself. I don't know if anybody

else feels that way or not. This group

counseling has been wildly successful.

Hang in there, Doc.

Hang in there. There are 189 sats in

all. In 8 years, more than half a

million vets have come in for help.

Steve has just found a vet center. He's

poised, well educated, but hear him

well. Part of his mind is still

patrolling Vietnam.

I don't want to be around a lot of

strangers. I go to a shopping mall

that's make a beline in, hit the store,

get what you want, and get

out. You have to look in every eye that

goes by you, and you have to scan the

entire environment from left to right,

up and down. He's excessively alert,

always on guard. To the casual eye, he

looks like the ideal American veteran.

Good neighbor, family man. But for 20

years, he brought his rage and anger

home each night. He won't talk about his

first marriage. His second was in

trouble until he found the Vet Center.

Now things are better at home. And I

wish that there had been someone, anyone

that could have done something to help

me a long time ago. I wouldn't have hurt

myself and I wouldn't have hurt the ones

that are around me as much as I have.

At work, Steve's a success. Always in

control, he suppresses thoughts about

the day an enemy rocket blew up his

firebase. That trauma left him with

PTSD.

And I remember looking at the pile of

men that had been alive an hour before

and were dead now. And I I was one of

the guys that picked them up and put

them on the medevac choppers as they

went out and parts of the bodies were

coming off my hands. And it was really

very

but I know I went numb. I was just

totally totally numb. And I felt aged

when I came back. I knew I was only 20

that day, but I might as well have been

80.

There are professionals all over America

like Steve. They're suffering from

delayed stress. They don't know what's

wrong with them. That includes doctors,

lawyers, bankers, literate people who

surprisingly have never heard of the

disorder. Steve's upset that he learned

about himself so late. He blames the VA

for failing to spread the word.

I resent it. I had no idea that there

was anything called PTSD. I didn't hear

anything about it in radio, newspaper,

TV.

You can have untreated PTSD and live in

suburbia, but it's more likely you'll be

living in the streets. One out of three

homeless men is a Vietnam veteran.

Onethird of the men without shelter

served their country in wartime. When I

come back from the NOM, I had quite a

habit. Johnny, come marching home

again. Only thing the gun I was carrying

when I came back was a little syringe.

Casper's home is his car. He stopped

using heroin, but he shows other PTSD

symptoms. A wandering lifestyle,

nightmares, isolation. He sleeps in

whatever Seattle parking lot is empty.

Then you find out at the end of the day

after praying saying thank you made it

another day look at the

realities I'm alone alone.

PTSD is a disease that doesn't

discriminate. It reaches from the

veterans who work in the boardrooms to

the veterans who sleep in the streets. A

lot of my brother's veterans are on the

street because they can't put phenomena

away.

To them, their body is here, but their

mind and actions are still there. To me,

the streets are, is what you say, my

hide away.

Casper has never been to a vet center.

Experts say there could be as many as

500,000 Vietnam veterans still in need

of counseling. That so many have been

left behind is often attributed to a

lack of zeal on the part of the Veterans

Administration. One thing you have to

understand is the VA as an entity has

never liked the Vet Center program. It's

an insult, basically an embarrassment.

The VA's established routines and

procedures couldn't include the new

therapies required to treat PTSD. Mishad

explains, it was jammed down the VA's

throat. I mean, literally, it was stated

that it would have been better to put

the Vet Center program under forestry or

agriculture, as funny as that may sound,

for the logistical support that we

needed to get started.

and we were a little $20 million plus

program that took care of all the

Vietnam vets and here they've got a $24

billion program that couldn't address

Vietnam vets.

Despite the VA's reluctance, Congress

was determined to make the program more

effective. It expanded the scope of the

vet centers, but at the same time fixed

to date when the centers had to be

closed down. The VA didn't object. It

had its own plan for treating PTSD.

physically move the

centers. In short, the program that

works so well outside hospital walls was

to be pushed inside, brought into VA

mental hygiene clinics.

Acutely ill vets would be treated in

psychiatric wards. The VA admits no

money would be saved, nor would

treatment be

better. Many vets are suspicious. They

don't want to mingle with people who are

a lot sicker than they are.

I already drew up hurt knows about it

and no sense drawing it up

again or one of these things. One

veteran fears drugs. I don't trust VA

hospitals. People go into VA hospitals

and end up on thorosine shuffling along

the halls. And most of the vets that I

know won't go anywhere near a VA

hospital unless they're dying. Okay, you

ready, Mr. Parker? You want juice or

water? Vietnam vets don't trust the

Veterans Administration. They trust the

vet center program and the counselors.

They don't see it as a VA program. Their

trust is with the centers. And you tear

that home down. It's like burning the

villages down as we did in Vietnam. And

that's home. And that's that was the

pain. You can't just go somewhere else

and say this is home. Early last year,

even before the date Congress had

established, the VA in uncharacteristic

haste listed nine local centers it

intended to close. You say that the vet

centers are doing a good job. You think

they're necessary? Mhm. Then why did the

veterans administration attempt to begin

closing some of the vet centers? Dr.

Arthur Blank is the VA's man in charge.

He directs the vet center program from

Washington. The law requires, as it is

presently stated that a number of vet

centers move to medical facilities and a

judgment was made that since that was

going to have to be done on a large

scale, it ought to be done on a small

scale to see how it goes. Did you agree

with that decision? Uh it's a reasonable

management judgment. The question was

whether you agreed with it. Well, it's a

little hard to uh uh again this is a

policy matter and I really can't uh I

can't make a judgment as such about a

policy matter. What are you doing to

have the law changed? That's not my job.

My job is not to have the law changed.

My job is for us to provide the

services. That's what we're doing. And

if you believe that it should be done

one way, you say it isn't your job.

Isn't it your responsibility to try to

influence Congress and have them provide

what you believe is necessary? No, it's

certainly not my responsibility to try

and influence Congress. I want to make

sure I have the picture here. Mhm.

Unless Congress changes its mind,

changes the legislation. Mhm. You are

going to be closing bet

centers in whose work you believe.

That's my understanding.

Yes. Now, you've lived it. What do you

think of that? That's rude. Guy Ardale

has been in PTSD treatment for over a

year. We are

different. And for someone

to try to take

away what a lot of us need to help

us get over

this, it's thoughtless and it's rude.

If I were able to tell you, overwhelming

the veterans say, "No, don't do it. Then

would you favor leaving it pretty much

as it is? Well, I'd want to look at the

evidence. I want to look at the

documentation. Vet Center Debbie, may I

help you? A lot of evidence gets turned

out in vet centers. Reports the VA says

it needs, but there's one basic

unanswered question. How many men out

there are suffering from PTSD?

The answer to this question is buried in

a report that costs taxpayers $6 million

and is now two and a half years late.

The reason it's late is because it's so

good. I think. But doctor, if I run a

year late in my work, I'm likely not to

have my job. Yes. These people are

running two years late. Well, that's the

way it goes with research.

Dr. You're the commander on point here.

Do you have enough money to do what you

need to do? I think that we could be

doing more. I think there are veterans

that uh that we're not reaching at this

point in time. Uh I guess the best I can

do about that is to hope that they'll be

able to wait until we get to them.

Obviously, some veterans can't wait.

They hurt too much. Tacoma, Washington,

the director and staff psychologists of

this medical center, cut through the red

tape. They developed a treatment program

beyond vet centers, and they don't do it

where the VA would like to place the

veteran, in psych wards or in mental

hygiene

clinics. It's a building standing apart.

It is here that men who have already had

exposure to simple therapy spend 11

weeks in advanced

treatment. For the veteran, the hardest

part is called Vietnam focus, for each

man must tell his most troubling story.

Dennis lost his leg after the war. To

him, that crippling is minor compared to

what he'd seen and done in Vietnam,

where he was a medical corman who took

care of wounded in the field. This is

his day to talk. We went through five

weeks of training in which they showed

us these ideal

wounds. I never saw an ideal wound.

He was tapping on the trees as he walked

down trying to draw fire and they said

the machine gun was new and he cut loose

and then it hit the

fan. It was over. I'd lost four good

friends. Then we got to an area we

called the valley of death. They got hit

hard and took us about 3 days to get in

there and all the way all you saw was

bodies. And when he fired it just went

across their legs and just hit the one

guy's nose. So they were still alive and

he says uh I said what do we do with

says, "Kill

him." I

did. God buckles. He had his face shot

off. Had a round his shoulder, round

through his wrist, round through his

thigh. I said, "You die. I'll kill you."

You couldn't talk. He grabbed hold of my

arm.

What's at stake here are the lives and

sanity of these men. The urgency of this

treatment comes from a simple fact. The

rate of suicide among Vietnam veterans

is abnormally high. We tell you now that

unless treated, PTSD gets worse with

time, not better. The longer the VA

waits, the more difficult it will be to

bring them back in from way out there.

What is a true statement about how much

you deserve or earned the right to

survive

Corman?

What are you doing, Dennis?

Are you going to shut us out? Is that

what you're doing?

Well, no. Is that what is it? Give me

the whole Give us the whole message if

that's the whole message. Don't just

give us part of it. What's the whole

message? And if they died, I should have

died with them.

This is a very big issue that a lot of

guys coming here have to deal with is do

I deserve? Do I have the right to

survive?

But I think you had a right to

survive. Even if I don't believe it for

myself, I can believe it for you. I

respect you.

I think you deserve to live. I know you

do. Do I have the right to a decent

life, to some peace?

I hope you all come to some resolution

about that for yourselves

because I don't know if you guys don't

deserve to live. Who does?

That's my question.

Last month, Congress passed a bill that

lifts that mandatory closing date for

the storefront centers. But that doesn't

mean that the treatment of PTSD will

necessarily continue in vet centers.

Under the terms of the new bill, the VA

in some circumstances will have the

option to move a particular vet center

to one of its hospitals and the option

to out and out close others. That's what

vets like Shad Mishad fear will happen,

that the VA will move quietly to shut

down what he says is the most effective

treatment program a PTSD patient has

going for him.

Lest we forget the Vietnam War, a group

of veterans began a movement a few years

ago to collect money for a memorial to

the men and women who served in what was

probably America's least popular war.

Providing there are no lastminute

hitches, that memorial, which doesn't

look like this or any other memorial

you've ever seen, will be dedicated next

month in Washington. and a quarter of a

million veterans are expected to be

present to have the parade that an

indifferent or angry nation has so long

denied them. The idea for a memorial

began to take shape when millionaire

Ross Perau got things going with a check

to the Vietnam Veterans Memorial Fund

for

$160,000. The American Legion pledged a

million. Finally, $7 million was

collected. The federal government

donated the site, but instead of healing

the wounds of Vietnam, the memorial

issue renewed the bitterness. Bitterness

no one anticipated back in 1980 when the

ground was consecrated.

For those who yet suffer

wounds, for those who are not yet home,

let this place be a Mecca for healing.

[Music]

Such a Mecca, a memorial that would

truly heal, would surely be something

most Americans would welcome. A memorial

that would be neither of the right nor

of the left. No doves on it, no

hawks. The search for a suitable design

had been conducted in the most American

of ways, a nationwide competition open

to everyone, just like the Vietnam War

itself. Some of the entries were

interesting. A gigantic steel helmet

with bullet holes front and back. 1,400

in all, from prestigious architectural

firms to rank amateurs to be judged by

some of the finest architects and

sculptors in the country. There were

several conditions. The memorial must

have inscribed into it the names of the

57,692 men and women who died. Because

it was situated so close to the

Washington Monument with its circle of

flags, the use of a flag was

discouraged. And most important, there

was a condition that a number of

entrance did not heed, that the memorial

make no political statement about the

war. The contestants would be anonymous.

The judges would not know their names or

their reputations. And so, a winning

design was chosen. It was number

1,026. We'll show you the designer in a

moment. But the design itself was very,

very simple. Two black polished granite

walls that would reflect the park on

their surfaces and would point to the

Lincoln Memorial and the Washington

Monument. The names of the dead would be

inscribed not in alphabetical order, but

in the order in which they were lost.

The architectural community hailed the

design as a triumph, elegant,

understated, contemplative, simple, so

remarkably unpolitical that it won the

support of Barry Goldwater, William West

Morland, the American Legion, and George

McGovern. But like anything that Vietnam

touches, not so simple. For in the eyes

of a few beholders, the design was an

insult. You have two choices. Start all

over again or modify the design. Ross

Perau, who helped bankroll the

competition, was not pleased. This is an

appropriate memorial to the Marines who

fought in World War II. And believe me,

they love it. Give us an appropriate

memorial for the men who fought in

Vietnam. The war is suddenly come to the

forefront again. It's being fought down

the street here on that memorial site. I

think you are making a I I would be

dishonest if I downplayed the fact. I

think you've made an excellent

observation. I think that we are that's

exactly what we're talking about.

Congressman Don Bailey of Pennsylvania,

company commander Silver Star. We're

talking about a mixture and a conflict

of ideas and

perceptions based again upon whether or

not America should have been involved in

Vietnam. Absolutely. Was it the design

that provoked such controversy or the

designer who was a student, a woman, an

American, a Chinese American? I think it

is for some very

difficult for them. I mean they sort of

lump us all together for one thing. Um

what is it? There is a term used I first

heard about it maybe two years ago. It's

called a

[ __ ] Uh I guess it's a very derogatory

comment toward Vietnamese. But yes, I

would say if if you were being rational

and logical, there would be some people

who fought in that war

um who would really hate the

idea that someone of my

descent would have designed a

memorial, the Vietnam Memorial. The

winner of the competition turned out to

be Maya Lynn, a 21-year-old Yale

undergraduate from Athens, Ohio. The

daughter of Henry Lynn, who heads the

fine arts department at the University

of Ohio. Professor Lynn was born in

China, but fled when the communists took

over long before Maya was born. Let me

ask you a silly question. How Chinese

are you? As apple pie. born and raised

in the Midwest, surrounded by

non-Chinese people. I just really never

looked at myself as a minority. I looked

at myself as just any other kid. I

talked to Vietnam veterans who, you

know, they like the design or they're

indifferent towards it. They says, "Uh,

gosh, it just really upset me a little

bit when I found out that the designer

was, you know, a young girl who hadn't

been through the war itself." Jan Scrugs

heads the memorial fund. I think with

the same design, if it were uh designed

by an Anglo-Saxon male, I think the

uh difficulties that we had would have

been considerably less. I don't see how

a black ditch

underground, no flag, no inscription, a

jumble of names. I don't see how that

honors anyone. It's a black sarcophagus.

Tom Carheart, West Point infantry

platoon leader, was the first veteran to

speak out. He triggered a campaign

against the design. I want to have the

public

accept my conception of myself and my

brothers and sisters that we served

honorably in what President Reagan

called a noble cause. It's like people

read political statements into what

really is a very pure thought and those

political statements reflect more what

they're about than what the form is

about. Still, it was a heady time for a

student who was being hailed as a

genius. I wanted something that would

make

people tomorrow, yesterday, or 100 years

from now remember and honor their those

who died, those who served. What I've

given, I hope to people as a living

park. And for me, I felt that was the

most beautiful

way to remember.

Last winter, the granite began arriving

and was shipped up to Vermont for

cutting and polishing. The Vietnam

Veterans Memorial Fund had gotten all

the right signatures and approvals,

satisfied the various commissions. No

small feat, but my Lin soon found

herself in the center of other people's

problems. Conservative columnist James

J. Kilpatrick loved the design, but

conservative columnist Patrick Buchanan

wrote that she had designed quote a wall

of shame. He said that none of the

judges were Vietnam veterans and that

one quote had a long-standing

association with the American Communist

Party," unquote. Buchanan declines to

name names or to be interviewed, but

less than a week after that column

appeared, 27 Republican congressmen

asked President Reagan to invalidate the

competition and start another one. Maya

Lynn went back to her parents in Athens,

Ohio, a bit confused and a bit angry.

Enter the full weight of the federal

government, Secretary of the Interior

James Watt, who can't have the last word

on the use of federal land. He did not

like her design and demanded some

changes. Unless they approve of those

three changes, there will be no Vietnam

Memorial here in Washington, DC. Before

groundbreaking began, Secretary Watt got

the memorial fund to agree to his three

modifications. The addition of a statue,

a flag, and an inscription. My Lynn

protested and hoped that the Washington

Fine Arts Commission, which has the

absolute last word on the aesthetics of

memorials, would support her. The

commission said it would reserve

judgment on the additions depending on

their design and placement.

It was the recommendation of the project

architects that flag and statue be

placed over there somewhere near the

entrance to the park where they would

not conflict with my Lynn's design. But

the critics said no. They wanted flag

and statue front and center where they

would be the focal point for the

memorial and my Lin's design would

merely be a backdrop. Last month with

much fanfare the memorial committee

presented its modified plan. We are here

today though to unveil perhaps the most

extraordinary piece of sculpture that

the world has ever seen. Have a look

everyone. There it is. The statue

certainly not offensive but perhaps

superfluous to so simple a memorial.

This time no open competition. The fund

bending to Watts and Perau's demands

went out and commissioned an heroic

statue and announced Flag and statue

would stand front and center. The head

of the American Legion, who originally

supported Myelin's design, grudgingly

went along with a compromise, saying it

was necessary in order to satisfy the

demands of a small group of vocal

critics who claimed to speak for all the

veterans. Don't you think that I have an

obligation to try to see that a memorial

to friends and comrades that I had who

died to a country that I believe in

because of what it stands

for because of what it stands for that I

should express myself on this memorial.

There are those who might say look you

fellas meaning those critics of the of

the her design uh you set these we have

these rules and everybody agrees to them

and then when something comes along that

isn't quite the way you want it you want

to change the rules no it's not has

nothing to do with rules but the I think

maybe the main thing is that everything

we do in this country we arrive at

through debate through uh controversy uh

and we finally work out a plan the

license of Congress is not to heal the

wounds of Vietnam. A license of Congress

is to honor and recognize those who

served in Vietnam, not those who went to

Canada, not Jane Fonda and her friends.

You really think you really feel that

that's what it leaves it open to? I

don't

know. I I I'm emotionally caught up in

this obviously, so perhaps I can't see

the great splendor and so on. Well, most

of us aren't

artists. We want something that will

make us feel a part of America. From an

artistic point of view, does tacking on

the flag and the statue detract from it?

Probably. Ross Perau, the millionaire

who financed the competition. Uh, this

is a special

situation. This is a case of taking a

beautiful design and trying to modify it

so it becomes an effective memorial. I

have met Miss Lynn. I visited with Miss

Lynn. And if there had been any way for

anyone to explain to Miss

Lynn what the veterans wanted, I I'm

convinced she can produce anything. He

really felt that, you know, okay, we

have given them something peaceful now.

Now, what do we do for the heroics? What

do we do for He couldn't see the sort of

quiet dignity that underlies the whole

design. He really couldn't. He really

looked at contemplative as being passive

almost I would say and I just I mean we

we interpret the design we interpret the

form differently and everyone is

entitled to their opinions. So who wins

the battle of the Vietnam Memorial?

Myin's design is nearly complete. On

Wednesday, the Washington Fine Arts

Commission must decide if the statue is

appropriate and where flag and statue

should be placed. Ross Perau and

Secretary Watt promised big trouble if

they're not happy with that decision. As

for Myin, she feels that not only has

her design been violated, but her

integrity as an artist and the rules of

fair

competition. But all that may be

secondary, for in life, it could be

argued the 57,000 were the pawns of

those fighting political battles on the

home front. It is worth noting that in

death they are still being thus used.

You live in Washington, everything's up

for grabs and for compromise and we were

in a situation in which either we made a

compromise with this group of

individuals or Secretary Watt was not

going to give us a construction permit.

What happens if the Washington Fine Arts

Commission says yes, you can have the

flag and statue but not right in front,

not right there. put it off a 100 or 200

yards. If anybody ever even raises that

point and tries to change that, it is

the worst kind of bad faith. It is the

worst kind of double dealing. And if

that should even begin to occur, I will

intend to spend whatever time, money,

and energy is necessary to see that

people keep their words because we owe

that to the Vietnam veterans. And I'm

going to have a lot of powerful allies.

Maya, how do you feel about compromise?

compromise. Well, it becomes a question

of who's doing the compromising right

now. I would

never be a party to something that would

ruin that design. And yet, you don't

know if you have any power to prevent

it. You just sort of have to watch and

sort of cry.