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- Just a week ago today,
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four more bodies
were discovered.
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00:00:22,638 --> 00:00:24,515
in a connected series
of murders
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00:00:24,558 --> 00:00:26,608
that now numbers at least ten.
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- He went for someone who he
knew was weak and vulnerable.
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Co-eds, college students.
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- He eviscerates them,
decapitates them,
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has sex with the body parts.
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- Roz Thorpe was a free spirit.
She was bright.
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00:00:58,589 --> 00:01:01,251
- Aiko Koo was a little girl,
really.
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Who knows what these victims
would've turned into,
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00:01:04,697 --> 00:01:07,053
and I think that's
the tragedy of it all.
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- By 10, 12 years of age,
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he was getting abuse
from his mother.
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"You're nothing. You'll never
amount to anything."
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- We're still fighting.
She's still belittling me.
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I'm like a puppet on a string.
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- If mom wasn't there,
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he wouldn't
have been a serial killer.
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- He killed his mother.
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He wanted to just humiliate
and defile the corpse
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any way he could, and he did.
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- Here was a guy
killing coeds.
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He's a necrophiliac,
what he did to his mother.
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How is he different from us?
What's going through his mind?
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To understand the artist,
you must look at the artwork.
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Kemper is gonna be
the first one
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to help the FBI know
what makes these guys tick.
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00:02:20,876 --> 00:02:23,930
- Kemper was very helpful
because he's very intelligent.
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He's more than just
average intelligence.
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- He's got total recall
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for everything
that he has ever done.
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- He changed
law enforcement forever.
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- I'm not an expert.
I'm not an authority.
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I'm someone who has been
a murderer for almost 20 years.
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I was playing a dangerous game
with a loaded gun
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that got us all.
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00:03:08,347 --> 00:03:11,313
- In the '60s, Santa Cruz
was a beach town
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by basically a Yosemite-quality
redwood forest.
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- It was beautiful.
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It was just really
make-believe.
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- UC Santa Cruz
had opened in 1965
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and was just
gathering popularity,
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and it was becoming
a real counterculture location
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where hippies loved to go.
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It was a real party time.
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Come to Santa Cruz
and be free and easy.
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Until the bodies started
washing in on the beach.
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00:03:39,369 --> 00:03:42,246
- There are a number of
unsolved murders in this area.
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00:03:42,290 --> 00:03:45,606
Four of these victims
were co-eds from nearby UC.
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00:03:45,650 --> 00:03:48,748
At least two other young women
are missing and feared dead.
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- People were buying guns,
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00:03:51,933 --> 00:03:53,854
making sure
their doors were locked,
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00:03:53,897 --> 00:03:57,910
and it was
an atmosphere of fear.
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- Until he called the police
on himself,
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00:04:00,659 --> 00:04:02,492
I don't think
anybody felt safe.
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00:04:38,051 --> 00:04:40,799
- So at that point, I'm feeling
all of the blood
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run from my head
down to my feet.
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- It was a shock to everybody.
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00:04:45,032 --> 00:04:46,819
Everybody was
just buzzing around.
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It was, like, all of a sudden,
things were happening.
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- The police came up.
He filled up the entire booth.
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He was arrested
in the telephone booth.
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00:05:02,745 --> 00:05:07,981
- He stands 6'9", 285 pounds.
Just a huge man.
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00:05:08,025 --> 00:05:10,775
So the officers said
when they arrived
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00:05:10,818 --> 00:05:12,955
he came out
of the phone booth,
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00:05:12,998 --> 00:05:15,921
he literally put his hands
on top of the phone booth
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00:05:15,965 --> 00:05:17,493
to say "I give up."
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He's that big.
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- Why did you wind up
giving yourself up?
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- It had to stop.
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00:05:26,917 --> 00:05:29,883
- This was such a crazy time
and such a hideous evil
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00:05:29,927 --> 00:05:32,502
that Kemper perpetrated
on these people.
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00:05:32,545 --> 00:05:35,600
- He tells me exactly,
in graphic details,
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what he did to these victims.
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Just think if had
he not turned himself in
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and he just kept killing,
he could've gone killing
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for a long, long period
of time.
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00:06:11,725 --> 00:06:13,907
- In those days,
all of the research
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00:06:13,950 --> 00:06:17,093
that has been conducted
on criminal psychology
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00:06:17,136 --> 00:06:20,233
has been from
a rehabilitation perspective.
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00:06:20,277 --> 00:06:22,982
We've had to develop
more of a proactive technique
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00:06:23,026 --> 00:06:24,858
to try to catch these guys.
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I told my partner,
"We got to go
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and talk to the experts."
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We did not ask
for FBI permission
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because the old saying,
it's better to ask
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00:06:34,762 --> 00:06:36,376
for forgiveness
than permission.
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00:06:37,816 --> 00:06:39,474
And the first person
we'd be interviewing
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00:06:39,518 --> 00:06:41,219
would be Edmund Emil Kemper.
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00:06:41,263 --> 00:06:44,535
- He was not insane.
He was perfectly conscious
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00:06:44,578 --> 00:06:47,938
of exactly what he was doing
and how he was doing it,
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and he told the police
everything.
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00:06:49,946 --> 00:06:52,345
You can learn exactly
what you wanted to learn.
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- He was perfect for the FBI.
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00:07:11,237 --> 00:07:12,633
- The best way to understand
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00:07:12,676 --> 00:07:15,034
is to look
at Kemper's childhood.
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- Ed Kemper never had
a normal childhood.
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00:07:26,682 --> 00:07:28,254
- It was a chaotic relationship
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00:07:28,297 --> 00:07:29,954
between
his mother and his father.
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This went on
for a period of time,
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this bickering and yelling,
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demeaning his father.
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The father couldn't take it
any longer, so he took off.
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00:07:42,171 --> 00:07:44,702
And junior here
was now left with the mother.
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- His mother was
very verbally abusive,
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00:07:55,740 --> 00:07:59,187
didn't like him,
maybe hated him.
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00:08:00,409 --> 00:08:02,153
- His mother was
very belittling
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of him and humiliated him,
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00:08:03,725 --> 00:08:05,644
but somebody doesn't
wake up one day
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00:08:05,687 --> 00:08:07,564
and decide, "I'll go out
and kill women,"
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00:08:07,608 --> 00:08:09,527
because someone is trying
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00:08:09,571 --> 00:08:11,186
to symbolically
kill their mother.
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00:08:11,230 --> 00:08:14,632
It begins 10, 15,
20 years earlier
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00:08:14,677 --> 00:08:17,512
in his mind, in his fantasies.
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00:08:20,523 --> 00:08:24,362
- He had an older sister,
and he had a younger sister,
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and he played games called
gas chamber, electric chair,
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00:08:28,157 --> 00:08:30,688
and what that was, was just
like reenactment of death.
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They would strap him
to a chair,
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and then his sister
would make-believe
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she's pushing on a button
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00:08:36,230 --> 00:08:38,237
to execute him,
and he'd writhe
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00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,941
in the chair
like he's being executed.
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00:08:40,984 --> 00:08:43,777
- And that was a game,
and you wonder if there was
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00:08:43,820 --> 00:08:46,918
something in that experience
that began
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00:08:46,963 --> 00:08:50,409
some of these
very death-oriented fantasies.
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00:08:54,815 --> 00:08:56,561
- His mother was afraid of him.
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00:08:56,604 --> 00:08:58,219
- She put him in the basement.
129
00:09:05,069 --> 00:09:06,902
- The rest of the family
went upstairs
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00:09:06,945 --> 00:09:09,737
to retire for the evening.
I went to the basement.
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00:09:09,781 --> 00:09:12,792
So we had an entire floor
of the house between us,
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00:09:12,835 --> 00:09:15,410
and it was very scary.
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00:09:15,454 --> 00:09:18,421
My mother wouldn't allow me any
negotiated settlement of light.
134
00:09:18,465 --> 00:09:20,906
I couldn't have a night light.
It was too expensive.
135
00:09:20,949 --> 00:09:24,440
- And he talked about the rats
running around at night
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00:09:24,484 --> 00:09:26,797
and how afraid
he was of the rats.
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00:09:29,677 --> 00:09:31,029
- He'd be all alone
in the dark
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00:09:31,072 --> 00:09:32,905
with only
this furnace light going.
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00:09:32,950 --> 00:09:34,695
- And he would look in
this gas furnace, and he would
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00:09:34,738 --> 00:09:36,395
just kind of fantasize
that this was hell,
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00:09:36,439 --> 00:09:37,530
this was Satan.
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And the flames are coming out.
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- And to me, that was
the fires of hell.
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00:09:44,118 --> 00:09:47,477
All I saw was
the flame shadows
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00:09:47,521 --> 00:09:49,572
or light playing on the grill
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of the furnace shining on
a wall and a hissing sound.
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That I was making a bargain
with demonic forces
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00:10:00,566 --> 00:10:02,006
that I was convinced
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00:10:02,050 --> 00:10:05,933
were gonna consume me
and somehow do me in.
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00:10:11,083 --> 00:10:14,005
- And he had these dolls
belonging to his older sister.
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00:10:15,881 --> 00:10:17,932
She loved these dolls.
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00:10:17,975 --> 00:10:20,200
So that's where he first
started cutting the heads,
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00:10:20,244 --> 00:10:22,601
the arms,
and legs off the dolls.
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It didn't stop with the dolls.
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00:10:32,636 --> 00:10:36,125
He then transitioned
over into animal cruelty.
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00:10:38,699 --> 00:10:40,314
Which we know that's
a predictor
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of future violence.
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00:10:42,713 --> 00:10:45,899
So he buries the cat alive
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and then brings the cat up
after it's dead,
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decapitates the head
of the cat.
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00:10:50,307 --> 00:10:51,963
He puts it on a stake.
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00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:56,763
If you see these
characteristics in children,
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00:10:56,807 --> 00:10:59,644
there's a good chance he or she
will become a violent offender.
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00:11:05,358 --> 00:11:09,023
They shipped him up
to the paternal grandparents,
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in a remote area.
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00:11:13,255 --> 00:11:14,696
- He loved his grandfather.
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00:11:14,739 --> 00:11:16,353
It's the only person
I ever heard him
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00:11:16,398 --> 00:11:18,272
say that he loved.
169
00:11:19,887 --> 00:11:22,767
His grandfather got him
a rifle
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00:11:22,811 --> 00:11:24,468
and taught him to shoot.
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00:11:26,475 --> 00:11:28,395
- He was shooting birds.
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00:11:29,879 --> 00:11:31,972
And grandma,
her name was Maude,
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didn't like that.
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00:11:34,983 --> 00:11:36,161
- She took the gun
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00:11:36,205 --> 00:11:37,950
- We begin now to see
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the dynamics
of when he gets upset.
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00:11:42,008 --> 00:11:46,982
Her telling him to do something
triggered a lot of rage.
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00:11:47,025 --> 00:11:51,170
- And unfortunately Maude
was the same personality
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00:11:51,213 --> 00:11:52,523
as his mother.
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00:11:55,185 --> 00:11:57,888
- Very, very controlling,
domineering,
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00:11:57,932 --> 00:12:00,202
nagging type of mother.
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00:12:00,245 --> 00:12:02,558
- He described her
as verbally abusive.
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00:12:02,601 --> 00:12:05,394
He used the same terms
for his mother.
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00:12:07,052 --> 00:12:09,016
- They get into an argument,
185
00:12:09,060 --> 00:12:11,065
and he was just so fed up...
186
00:12:12,374 --> 00:12:14,949
with her, and he decided to
pick up that gun
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00:12:14,993 --> 00:12:17,261
and while she's at
her kitchen table...
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He came up and shot her
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00:12:20,577 --> 00:12:22,235
once in the back of the head
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00:12:23,718 --> 00:12:26,031
and a couple of times
in the back.
191
00:12:31,660 --> 00:12:33,186
Surprisingly it's not done.
192
00:12:41,040 --> 00:12:43,047
He was getting abuse
from his mother,
193
00:12:43,091 --> 00:12:44,792
and he can only take
so much of this,
194
00:12:44,836 --> 00:12:47,280
and it's going to,
you know, overflow.
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00:12:47,323 --> 00:12:50,595
- I said, "She's got to die,
or more girls are gonna die."
196
00:12:51,642 --> 00:12:54,304
And that's when I decided
I'm going to murder my mother.
197
00:13:13,414 --> 00:13:16,424
- So then he became horrified.
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00:13:16,468 --> 00:13:18,911
He was so concerned
about how this was going
199
00:13:18,954 --> 00:13:20,961
to affect his grandfather,
200
00:13:21,005 --> 00:13:23,013
so he decided
the only reasonable thing
201
00:13:23,056 --> 00:13:24,452
to do was to kill
his grandfather
202
00:13:24,496 --> 00:13:26,417
to keep him from suffering.
203
00:13:36,364 --> 00:13:38,196
- Why did you shoot grandpa?
204
00:13:38,239 --> 00:13:39,854
You liked him.
205
00:13:39,898 --> 00:13:41,380
And he said,
"I didn't want Grandpa
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00:13:41,424 --> 00:13:44,347
"to see that his wife is dead.
207
00:13:44,391 --> 00:13:46,355
He would've had
a heart attack."
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00:13:46,399 --> 00:13:48,405
It doesn't make sense.
209
00:13:49,278 --> 00:13:52,508
And they call the cops.
They come. They arrest him.
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00:14:02,324 --> 00:14:04,462
- At the time I was 6' 7 1/2".
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00:14:04,505 --> 00:14:07,471
I weighed 173 pounds.
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00:14:07,515 --> 00:14:09,653
They couldn't believe
I was under 16.
213
00:14:09,697 --> 00:14:12,533
The judge had appointed
a psychiatrist.
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00:14:12,577 --> 00:14:16,024
His report was that
I was mentally ill,
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00:14:16,067 --> 00:14:19,428
that I was what he called...
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00:14:19,471 --> 00:14:22,568
how did he put that?
I was salvageable,
217
00:14:22,612 --> 00:14:25,098
that I should be treated
and not punished.
218
00:14:31,293 --> 00:14:33,431
- Atascadero,
that's a place basically
219
00:14:33,475 --> 00:14:36,268
for the criminally insane,
and you're dealing with a lot
220
00:14:36,311 --> 00:14:38,798
of severely psychotic,
mentally ill people that
221
00:14:38,842 --> 00:14:41,417
did something in the throes
of a psychosis.
222
00:14:43,511 --> 00:14:45,431
Kemper didn't fit that mold.
223
00:14:46,521 --> 00:14:50,578
- They felt he must be crazy
because look what he did,
224
00:14:50,622 --> 00:14:53,589
but unfortunately
his condition
225
00:14:53,633 --> 00:14:58,433
didn't fit within any of the
diagnostic mental illnesses.
226
00:14:58,477 --> 00:15:00,351
He wasn't
a paranoid schizophrenic.
227
00:15:00,394 --> 00:15:02,446
He didn't hear voices.
228
00:15:02,490 --> 00:15:04,322
- This type of pathology
229
00:15:04,366 --> 00:15:06,591
was not at all
on anybody's radar screen,
230
00:15:06,634 --> 00:15:08,512
even mental
health professionals,
231
00:15:08,555 --> 00:15:11,610
and I'm not sure that they knew
what to do with him.
232
00:15:12,568 --> 00:15:14,532
And so he was locked away.
233
00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:19,854
- So from age 15 to 21,
he was in a cage,
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00:15:19,898 --> 00:15:22,516
and that's just
how he developed.
235
00:15:25,264 --> 00:15:28,275
Here's a kid that had
never had a girlfriend.
236
00:15:29,889 --> 00:15:32,289
And he described
that he would masturbate
237
00:15:32,332 --> 00:15:33,730
several times a day.
238
00:15:36,303 --> 00:15:38,659
A lot of what
he was thinking about
239
00:15:38,703 --> 00:15:42,280
during this--these activities
was what he would do
240
00:15:42,324 --> 00:15:45,465
to his mother
and perhaps to other women.
241
00:15:47,430 --> 00:15:50,571
- He hated his mother,
and it's sexually arousing
242
00:15:50,615 --> 00:15:52,053
and stimulating.
243
00:15:52,097 --> 00:15:55,675
What that tells me is,
as an early adolescent,
244
00:15:55,718 --> 00:15:57,770
when people
are just reaching puberty,
245
00:15:57,813 --> 00:16:00,694
and their sexuality
begins to take place,
246
00:16:00,737 --> 00:16:03,835
you already see the early signs
of a fusion
247
00:16:03,879 --> 00:16:05,884
of sex and aggression.
248
00:16:07,019 --> 00:16:08,721
- They do some psych tests
on him.
249
00:16:10,423 --> 00:16:12,123
- He's very intelligent.
250
00:16:13,826 --> 00:16:16,444
He's more than just
average intelligence.
251
00:16:18,493 --> 00:16:20,763
- His IQ was 145.
252
00:16:28,137 --> 00:16:30,928
- I wasn't aware
of any intelligence.
253
00:16:30,972 --> 00:16:33,633
I was being called stupid
pretty frequently,
254
00:16:33,677 --> 00:16:35,772
and unfortunately
it was sinking in.
255
00:16:35,816 --> 00:16:39,655
I was very positively impressed
and surprised
256
00:16:39,699 --> 00:16:41,531
to find out I wasn't
mentally defective.
257
00:16:41,574 --> 00:16:44,279
Literally. I thought I was
a slow person.
258
00:16:44,322 --> 00:16:46,635
- He's very, very disarming
259
00:16:46,679 --> 00:16:48,556
because of his
high intelligence
260
00:16:48,599 --> 00:16:50,605
and his pleasant demeanor.
261
00:16:50,650 --> 00:16:52,919
He's a very friendly
and engaging
262
00:16:52,963 --> 00:16:55,145
and really
a very likeable person.
263
00:16:55,188 --> 00:16:56,713
- They trusted him.
264
00:17:00,335 --> 00:17:02,125
- They thought
he was just the perfect
265
00:17:02,169 --> 00:17:04,218
recovered criminal,
266
00:17:04,262 --> 00:17:08,233
and he assisted them as, like,
a secretary in their offices
267
00:17:08,277 --> 00:17:10,981
and administered tests
to the inmates.
268
00:17:11,025 --> 00:17:13,250
- He learned the buzzwords.
He learned what to say
269
00:17:13,294 --> 00:17:15,389
to make himself sound normal.
270
00:17:15,432 --> 00:17:17,351
He memorized the questions.
271
00:17:18,138 --> 00:17:21,061
- So he knew what the answers
were supposed to be.
272
00:17:22,021 --> 00:17:25,336
And that's why he passed
his final examination.
273
00:17:27,037 --> 00:17:30,658
- When Kemper was allowed out
of Atascadero,
274
00:17:30,702 --> 00:17:32,230
he was declared sane.
275
00:17:32,274 --> 00:17:34,107
- Psychiatrists really
didn't believe
276
00:17:34,150 --> 00:17:36,155
he was a danger
to himself or others.
277
00:17:36,200 --> 00:17:37,770
He had been a model patient.
278
00:17:39,079 --> 00:17:41,480
So they recommended
that he be released.
279
00:17:41,523 --> 00:17:44,142
But when they paroled him,
280
00:17:44,185 --> 00:17:46,278
they made him live
with his mother.
281
00:17:53,172 --> 00:17:55,180
- Now he's with mom.
282
00:17:55,223 --> 00:17:58,233
He's back in this environment,
the nagging, the yelling.
283
00:17:58,278 --> 00:17:59,324
She broke him.
284
00:18:00,983 --> 00:18:03,861
- Within nine months,
he killed his first hitchhiker.
285
00:18:11,889 --> 00:18:14,028
- Mary Ann Pesce
and Anita Luchessa
286
00:18:14,071 --> 00:18:15,990
were the first ones
that were murdered.
287
00:18:16,034 --> 00:18:18,128
- He said he cut her
ear to ear.
288
00:18:18,173 --> 00:18:19,480
- When I attacked her,
she didn't
289
00:18:19,525 --> 00:18:21,271
at first realize
what was happening.
290
00:18:21,314 --> 00:18:23,147
I had just gone through
a horrible experience
291
00:18:23,191 --> 00:18:25,240
stabbing her,
and I'm walking back there
292
00:18:25,285 --> 00:18:27,335
with her roommate, bewildered.
I got to kill her.
293
00:18:27,379 --> 00:18:29,254
I can't let her go.
She's gonna tell on me.
294
00:18:29,298 --> 00:18:31,523
Everybody's gonna get me.
295
00:18:54,036 --> 00:18:55,651
- After juvenile hall,
296
00:18:55,694 --> 00:18:58,137
he was a bit of a loner.
He didn't really fit in.
297
00:18:58,181 --> 00:19:01,498
He wanted to hang with the cops
and fit in with them.
298
00:19:01,541 --> 00:19:05,687
- He actually had ambitions
of becoming a policeman.
299
00:19:05,730 --> 00:19:07,867
I mean,
that's sort of crazy.
300
00:19:10,921 --> 00:19:14,063
- Many murderers wanted to be
law enforcement officers,
301
00:19:14,106 --> 00:19:17,204
and a few of them actually
were law enforcement officers.
302
00:19:25,363 --> 00:19:27,414
These guys are interested
in law enforcement
303
00:19:27,457 --> 00:19:30,119
because they want to learn
investigative techniques
304
00:19:30,162 --> 00:19:32,607
in order to avoid apprehension.
305
00:19:32,650 --> 00:19:35,005
And how do you learn
investigative techniques
306
00:19:35,049 --> 00:19:37,449
any better
than hanging around cops?
307
00:19:38,889 --> 00:19:40,764
- Kemper wanted to be
a police officer,
308
00:19:40,808 --> 00:19:43,339
but he never could get on
because he was 6'9",
309
00:19:43,382 --> 00:19:45,215
300 pounds.
310
00:19:45,259 --> 00:19:46,872
He exceeded the height limit.
311
00:19:46,916 --> 00:19:49,403
- So he got a job
with the highway department.
312
00:19:51,978 --> 00:19:53,417
- What did people see?
313
00:19:54,553 --> 00:19:56,385
- A nice guy.
314
00:19:56,428 --> 00:19:59,307
I lived as an ordinary person
most of my life,
315
00:19:59,350 --> 00:20:01,096
even though I was living
a parallel
316
00:20:01,140 --> 00:20:05,242
and increasingly sick life,
other life.
317
00:20:05,285 --> 00:20:08,558
- He really couldn't function
well at all in society.
318
00:20:08,601 --> 00:20:11,438
- His love life
was very lacking.
319
00:20:11,481 --> 00:20:14,099
- He would see normal people,
a man and a woman going out
320
00:20:14,142 --> 00:20:16,105
on a date or being together.
321
00:20:16,148 --> 00:20:19,465
The level of jealousy in him
was just out of this world.
322
00:20:19,508 --> 00:20:23,086
- He claimed that his mother
was the one that
323
00:20:23,130 --> 00:20:26,970
kept him from being
with women his own age.
324
00:20:27,536 --> 00:20:29,412
- He wanted his mother
to fix him up with some girls
325
00:20:29,455 --> 00:20:31,507
on campus,
and the mother said, "No.
326
00:20:31,550 --> 00:20:33,908
"You'll never get to date
any of these girls.
327
00:20:33,951 --> 00:20:35,608
You're just worthless."
328
00:20:46,516 --> 00:20:52,974
- My frustration, my inability
to communicate socially,
329
00:20:53,017 --> 00:20:56,464
sexually--I wasn't impotent,
330
00:20:56,508 --> 00:20:58,514
but emotionally I was impotent.
331
00:20:58,557 --> 00:21:01,481
I was scared to death
of failing
332
00:21:01,525 --> 00:21:03,358
in male-female relationships.
333
00:21:03,401 --> 00:21:06,324
I knew absolutely nothing
about that whole area,
334
00:21:06,368 --> 00:21:09,247
even of just sitting down
and talking with a young lady.
335
00:21:10,382 --> 00:21:11,953
I need to be able
to really communicate,
336
00:21:11,996 --> 00:21:13,306
and ironically enough,
337
00:21:13,349 --> 00:21:15,442
that's why I began
picking people up.
338
00:21:19,065 --> 00:21:24,212
- Hitchhiking culture
in Santa Cruz was very active.
339
00:21:24,824 --> 00:21:26,831
- People hitchhiked
all over town.
340
00:21:28,750 --> 00:21:31,367
But especially they hitchhiked
at the university.
341
00:21:32,502 --> 00:21:34,204
- He could've gone
to prostitutes,
342
00:21:34,247 --> 00:21:36,299
but prostitutes
are street people.
343
00:21:36,342 --> 00:21:39,571
They're strong. They're tough.
They take care of themselves.
344
00:21:39,614 --> 00:21:42,495
Kemper was too smart for that,
so he went for someone
345
00:21:42,538 --> 00:21:45,460
who he knew was weak
and vulnerable.
346
00:21:49,126 --> 00:21:50,565
Co-eds, college students.
347
00:21:53,314 --> 00:21:56,238
He gained comfort
by becoming familiar
348
00:21:56,282 --> 00:21:59,160
with the process
of picking up hitchhikers.
349
00:21:59,204 --> 00:22:01,124
- He wanted to see how far
he could get,
350
00:22:01,167 --> 00:22:02,520
and he would advance it.
351
00:22:04,746 --> 00:22:07,188
He would pick up a co-ed,
352
00:22:07,233 --> 00:22:10,242
and he wanted to see
whether he could let her go.
353
00:22:12,250 --> 00:22:15,522
So he's testing himself,
practicing.
354
00:22:17,791 --> 00:22:19,536
- I'm picking up young women,
355
00:22:19,580 --> 00:22:21,587
and I'm going a little bit
farther each time.
356
00:22:21,631 --> 00:22:23,985
It's a daring kind of a thing.
357
00:22:25,644 --> 00:22:27,040
I'm driving along.
358
00:22:27,083 --> 00:22:29,571
We go to a vulnerable place
359
00:22:29,614 --> 00:22:31,447
where there aren't
people watching,
360
00:22:31,491 --> 00:22:34,458
where I could act out,
and I say, "No, I can't."
361
00:22:40,042 --> 00:22:46,761
And this craving, this awful,
raging, eating feeling inside,
362
00:22:46,805 --> 00:22:50,819
I could feel it
consuming my insides,
363
00:22:50,862 --> 00:22:52,869
this fantastic passion.
364
00:22:55,008 --> 00:22:57,670
It was like drugs.
It was like alcohol.
365
00:22:57,713 --> 00:23:00,375
A little isn't enough.
At first it is.
366
00:23:00,419 --> 00:23:02,337
And as you adjust to
that psychologically
367
00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:04,606
and physically, you take
more and more and more.
368
00:23:04,649 --> 00:23:06,046
It's the same process.
369
00:23:06,089 --> 00:23:08,359
So it finally came down
to the thing of,
370
00:23:08,402 --> 00:23:10,671
"Do I dare bring this gun out?"
371
00:23:10,715 --> 00:23:12,809
Already realizing
if that gun comes out,
372
00:23:12,852 --> 00:23:16,080
something has to happen.
It was going to happen.
373
00:23:16,123 --> 00:23:18,001
I didn't see it then,
but it was going to happen.
374
00:23:18,044 --> 00:23:20,750
I was playing a dangerous game
with a loaded gun
375
00:23:20,793 --> 00:23:22,102
that got us all.
376
00:23:33,751 --> 00:23:35,933
- It would be displaced anger.
377
00:23:35,977 --> 00:23:37,809
These are girls
his mother said
378
00:23:37,853 --> 00:23:40,166
and swore by,
you can never have them.
379
00:23:40,209 --> 00:23:42,565
But even though now,
in his warped ways,
380
00:23:42,608 --> 00:23:45,925
he's able to gain control
over these girls. They're his.
381
00:23:46,928 --> 00:23:49,023
And he decided
on this one day,
382
00:23:49,066 --> 00:23:51,029
this precipitating event,
the argument
383
00:23:51,072 --> 00:23:53,734
with mom,
to pick up that gun.
384
00:23:55,567 --> 00:23:56,919
- He thought about it
for a long time,
385
00:23:56,963 --> 00:23:58,315
and he just did it.
386
00:23:59,319 --> 00:24:01,631
- Mary Ann Pesce
and Anita Luchessa
387
00:24:01,674 --> 00:24:03,595
were the first ones
that were murdered.
388
00:24:23,839 --> 00:24:25,629
One has flowers in her hand.
389
00:24:25,672 --> 00:24:27,853
Petite little dolls
and they're hitchhiking,
390
00:24:27,897 --> 00:24:29,424
a couple of real experts.
391
00:24:29,468 --> 00:24:31,125
I want to see
how together I am,
392
00:24:31,169 --> 00:24:33,176
if I can resist
this temptation.
393
00:24:33,219 --> 00:24:35,968
- These two victims really fit
394
00:24:36,012 --> 00:24:37,888
the fantasy, the profile.
395
00:24:38,892 --> 00:24:42,077
They're very, very petite,
very attractive.
396
00:24:42,950 --> 00:24:45,873
But he says, "I knew
I was going to kill them."
397
00:24:54,031 --> 00:24:55,384
- Because he worked
for the state,
398
00:24:55,428 --> 00:24:57,347
he knew areas
where to take the girls.
399
00:24:59,310 --> 00:25:01,100
Luchessa was
in the front seat.
400
00:25:01,143 --> 00:25:02,801
Pesce was in the back.
401
00:25:04,983 --> 00:25:06,902
He cuffs Pesce.
402
00:25:11,310 --> 00:25:13,403
- Gained control of Luchessa.
403
00:25:15,105 --> 00:25:18,334
Takes Luchessa,
puts her in the trunk.
404
00:25:21,562 --> 00:25:24,355
He's favoring Pesce
in the back seat.
405
00:25:25,445 --> 00:25:26,842
But he's going to kill her.
406
00:25:26,885 --> 00:25:28,150
- When I attacked her,
she didn't
407
00:25:28,194 --> 00:25:29,415
at first realize
what was happening.
408
00:25:29,459 --> 00:25:30,594
It didn't go through.
409
00:25:32,731 --> 00:25:34,390
- She had
very heavy coveralls on.
410
00:25:34,433 --> 00:25:36,921
It knocked her
right into the lid of the car,
411
00:25:36,965 --> 00:25:38,446
but it didn't pierce
the clothing.
412
00:25:38,490 --> 00:25:40,279
It wasn't that swell
a knife anyway.
413
00:25:41,414 --> 00:25:43,334
I kept on just mindlessly
attacking.
414
00:25:48,133 --> 00:25:50,054
- He said he cut her ear
to ear.
415
00:25:50,098 --> 00:25:51,362
He said,
"It's not like in the movies.
416
00:25:51,405 --> 00:25:52,669
You know, it's so tough.
417
00:25:52,714 --> 00:25:55,070
It's so tough
to kill somebody."
418
00:25:55,114 --> 00:25:57,601
"You know, like in the movies,"
he says, "you cut somebody,
419
00:25:57,645 --> 00:26:00,481
and then they bleed out,
and it just didn't work."
420
00:26:01,353 --> 00:26:04,320
Like many serial offenders--he
would be the first one
421
00:26:04,363 --> 00:26:06,415
to tell us this--he wasn't good
at the beginning.
422
00:26:06,458 --> 00:26:09,251
He didn't have control
of his victims.
423
00:26:09,294 --> 00:26:12,261
Now he had Luchessa
in the trunk.
424
00:26:12,829 --> 00:26:14,530
- I had just gone through
a horrible experience
425
00:26:14,573 --> 00:26:17,235
with her roommate,
stabbing her,
426
00:26:17,279 --> 00:26:19,111
and I was in shock
because of it.
427
00:26:19,154 --> 00:26:21,074
I couldn't believe
that it was that way,
428
00:26:21,118 --> 00:26:22,601
and I'm walking back
there, bewildered.
429
00:26:22,645 --> 00:26:24,216
I got to kill her.
I can't let her go.
430
00:26:24,259 --> 00:26:25,569
She's gonna tell on me.
431
00:26:25,612 --> 00:26:27,357
Everybody's gonna get me.
432
00:26:27,401 --> 00:26:28,754
She sees the blood
on my hands.
433
00:26:28,797 --> 00:26:30,106
"What are you doing?"
434
00:26:30,150 --> 00:26:32,113
She pulled back,
and she gasped.
435
00:26:33,422 --> 00:26:35,210
And I think, "Whoa,
436
00:26:35,254 --> 00:26:36,868
I don't want her
to know what happened."
437
00:26:39,269 --> 00:26:41,667
I said, "Your friend got smart
with me, and I hit her.
438
00:26:41,711 --> 00:26:43,674
I think I broke her nose.
You better come help."
439
00:26:43,718 --> 00:26:45,420
She's about to die.
Why do--
440
00:26:45,464 --> 00:26:47,252
Why does she have
to know that?
441
00:26:47,296 --> 00:26:49,695
I couldn't deal with
telling her that.
442
00:26:53,318 --> 00:26:54,670
- He said, "I was stabbing her
in the back."
443
00:26:57,548 --> 00:27:00,516
- "And I was hitting her bone,
and then as she turned around,
444
00:27:00,559 --> 00:27:02,349
"I was stabbing her
in the chest.
445
00:27:02,392 --> 00:27:04,530
"Her breasts were there,
446
00:27:04,573 --> 00:27:06,886
"but I couldn't stab her.
That'd be terrible
447
00:27:06,929 --> 00:27:08,850
for me to stab her
in the breasts."
448
00:27:09,852 --> 00:27:11,381
And it just seemed so weird
449
00:27:11,424 --> 00:27:12,514
what's going through
his brain.
450
00:27:13,997 --> 00:27:16,398
So then he tosses them
both in the trunk of his car.
451
00:27:16,441 --> 00:27:18,361
- I slammed down the lid
of the trunk.
452
00:27:19,321 --> 00:27:20,979
She isn't dead.
She's dying.
453
00:27:22,593 --> 00:27:23,901
And I panicked.
I thought,
454
00:27:23,945 --> 00:27:25,385
I just locked
the car keys in there
455
00:27:25,429 --> 00:27:27,611
'cause I can't find them
in my pocket.
456
00:27:27,654 --> 00:27:29,705
Oh, my God,
I locked them in the trunk.
457
00:27:29,748 --> 00:27:32,323
I'm kicking on the trunk lid
and yanking on it.
458
00:27:32,803 --> 00:27:34,811
Oh, no, I don't believe this.
459
00:27:34,854 --> 00:27:36,118
I stopped. I said,
460
00:27:36,162 --> 00:27:37,602
"Stop and think."
461
00:27:37,646 --> 00:27:39,085
I collected my wits.
462
00:27:39,129 --> 00:27:40,831
Check all your pocket.
463
00:27:41,573 --> 00:27:42,968
I checked all my pockets,
464
00:27:43,012 --> 00:27:44,671
and there's the keys
in the back pocket.
465
00:27:44,714 --> 00:27:46,590
I never put them
in my back pocket.
466
00:27:48,074 --> 00:27:50,996
- He's driving now back
to his apartment.
467
00:27:52,218 --> 00:27:54,880
There are two dead bodies
in his trunk.
468
00:27:58,763 --> 00:28:01,469
He was pulled over
for a taillight.
469
00:28:02,907 --> 00:28:05,132
He pulls him over,
and he gets out of the car.
470
00:28:07,052 --> 00:28:09,933
What's wrong, officer?
You have a broken taillight.
471
00:28:11,591 --> 00:28:14,121
And he says, "Do you want
to go check in the trunk
472
00:28:14,165 --> 00:28:16,170
to see what's wrong?
Maybe it's a loose wire."
473
00:28:16,214 --> 00:28:18,090
And the officer then
474
00:28:18,135 --> 00:28:20,840
thinks that this is
the most cooperative citizen
475
00:28:20,884 --> 00:28:22,978
and just gives him a warning.
476
00:28:24,985 --> 00:28:28,038
I said, "Ed." I said,
"What would you have done--
477
00:28:28,082 --> 00:28:30,264
"what would you have done
if he took a look in there?
478
00:28:30,308 --> 00:28:31,834
He's gonna find two bodies."
479
00:28:31,878 --> 00:28:33,711
He was prepared to kill him.
480
00:28:55,395 --> 00:28:58,449
- The first 24 hours,
I should have been busted,
481
00:28:58,493 --> 00:29:02,900
and I wasn't because
people got scared
482
00:29:02,944 --> 00:29:06,696
and minded their own business
and looked the other way.
483
00:29:06,739 --> 00:29:08,572
I thought I was pretty slick.
484
00:29:13,283 --> 00:29:14,549
- He takes those victims,
485
00:29:14,592 --> 00:29:15,684
Pesce and Luchessa,
486
00:29:15,728 --> 00:29:17,473
back to his apartment,
487
00:29:18,564 --> 00:29:19,958
where he then...
488
00:29:21,966 --> 00:29:23,711
eviscerates them...
489
00:29:25,282 --> 00:29:26,679
and has sex with,
490
00:29:26,722 --> 00:29:29,471
you know,
the head and the body parts.
491
00:29:32,613 --> 00:29:35,884
- I think what haunted me
was that he had sex
492
00:29:35,927 --> 00:29:37,847
with both the heads
493
00:29:37,892 --> 00:29:40,553
and with
the decapitated bodies.
494
00:29:41,644 --> 00:29:45,309
You can picture that.
You know, you just can,
495
00:29:45,353 --> 00:29:50,456
and it sounded so brutal
and so cold
496
00:29:50,499 --> 00:29:54,471
and so calculated
and so awful,
497
00:29:54,514 --> 00:29:56,827
just so awful.
498
00:29:56,871 --> 00:30:00,711
- But what people can't really
understand easily is,
499
00:30:00,754 --> 00:30:03,502
why do they have to go
beyond the murder,
500
00:30:03,545 --> 00:30:05,815
and the answer is,
the killing alone
501
00:30:05,858 --> 00:30:08,389
is not
psychosexually sufficient.
502
00:30:09,567 --> 00:30:11,705
And the idea is,
someone kills someone
503
00:30:11,749 --> 00:30:13,405
and then has sex
with the body,
504
00:30:13,449 --> 00:30:15,108
because if she was alive,
505
00:30:15,151 --> 00:30:17,420
he'd be too intimidated,
so if you kill her,
506
00:30:17,464 --> 00:30:19,122
she's unresisting.
507
00:30:19,165 --> 00:30:20,911
- He felt he would
be rejected.
508
00:30:20,955 --> 00:30:24,053
His sex life,
it was almost nonexistent.
509
00:30:24,096 --> 00:30:25,884
I don't think
he felt comfortable
510
00:30:25,928 --> 00:30:28,545
that he could have sex with
a woman when she was alive.
511
00:30:28,590 --> 00:30:31,993
By murdering them
and dismembering them,
512
00:30:32,036 --> 00:30:34,917
having sex with them,
he was able to possess them
513
00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,537
in a way that he felt he
couldn't possess them alive.
514
00:31:29,019 --> 00:31:32,247
- The only effect it had on him
is ,"God, this was tough.
515
00:31:32,291 --> 00:31:33,948
"It was tough killing them.
516
00:31:33,991 --> 00:31:35,825
"I thought
it would be a lot easier.
517
00:31:35,868 --> 00:31:38,093
"I have to maybe modify
my M.O.
518
00:31:38,137 --> 00:31:40,187
a little bit in the future."
519
00:31:49,786 --> 00:31:52,274
- My mother was a sick, angry,
520
00:31:52,317 --> 00:31:56,069
hungry, and very sad woman.
521
00:31:56,114 --> 00:31:59,908
I hated her,
but I wanted to love my mother,
522
00:31:59,951 --> 00:32:02,221
and I watched
the alcohol increase.
523
00:32:02,264 --> 00:32:04,882
I watched her
social life drop off.
524
00:32:04,926 --> 00:32:07,326
I watched her get bizarre.
525
00:32:07,369 --> 00:32:10,423
She had terrible pain
from her life, earlier life,
526
00:32:10,466 --> 00:32:12,343
her upbringing,
527
00:32:12,386 --> 00:32:14,044
a failed marriage
with my father.
528
00:32:14,088 --> 00:32:16,096
I'm a constant reminder
of that failure.
529
00:32:19,194 --> 00:32:21,157
- His mother belittled him.
530
00:32:21,986 --> 00:32:23,556
Told him that nobody's
gonna want him,
531
00:32:23,599 --> 00:32:25,257
that he was no good.
532
00:32:29,141 --> 00:32:31,323
- She was an alcoholic.
533
00:32:31,366 --> 00:32:33,373
She would come home soused
at nighttime
534
00:32:33,417 --> 00:32:35,075
and tell him,
"You, you bum, I haven't had
535
00:32:35,119 --> 00:32:36,950
sexual relations
with a man in seven years."
536
00:32:36,993 --> 00:32:38,913
Everything was on him.
537
00:32:45,022 --> 00:32:47,597
Now, Kemper, he had
what we call a murder kit.
538
00:32:47,641 --> 00:32:51,567
A murder kit would include
a knife, a gun, a gag, cuffs.
539
00:32:52,396 --> 00:32:56,104
The next victim, Aiko Koo,
was precipitated on the fact
540
00:32:56,147 --> 00:32:58,635
that his mother
was on his case again.
541
00:32:58,679 --> 00:33:01,471
- Aiko Koo was a little girl,
really.
542
00:33:01,515 --> 00:33:03,391
She was just 15 years old,
543
00:33:03,435 --> 00:33:06,008
and she had been going
to dance class.
544
00:33:08,539 --> 00:33:11,332
- She misses a bus,
so she's hitchhiking.
545
00:33:12,684 --> 00:33:14,342
Up comes Kemper, sees her
546
00:33:14,387 --> 00:33:16,523
at a distance,
perfect victim, petite.
547
00:33:24,116 --> 00:33:25,599
- She gets into
the car with him,
548
00:33:25,642 --> 00:33:27,345
and he starts driving.
549
00:33:29,395 --> 00:33:32,361
She realizes she's not being
taken where she wants to go.
550
00:33:54,525 --> 00:33:58,627
- And he pulls a gun on her.
It freaks her out.
551
00:33:58,670 --> 00:34:01,200
So he soon realizes that
"I can't do this with a gun,"
552
00:34:01,245 --> 00:34:03,165
so he hides the gun
'cause she's freaking out,
553
00:34:03,208 --> 00:34:05,260
so she calms down.
554
00:34:06,219 --> 00:34:09,796
Then he has to get out
of the car for some reason.
555
00:34:11,978 --> 00:34:14,900
But the mistake
that he made was,
556
00:34:14,945 --> 00:34:16,865
is that he locked himself
out of the car
557
00:34:16,908 --> 00:34:19,876
with Aiko Koo in the car,
with his gun.
558
00:34:22,929 --> 00:34:26,288
He was such a mastermind,
a manipulator.
559
00:34:27,291 --> 00:34:29,037
He was able to convince her,
560
00:34:29,082 --> 00:34:32,354
to talk her into
opening up that door.
561
00:34:35,669 --> 00:34:37,065
- She let me back in the car.
562
00:34:37,109 --> 00:34:39,072
I locked myself out.
563
00:34:39,116 --> 00:34:41,341
She opened the door for me.
564
00:34:42,999 --> 00:34:45,661
What in the hell am I
doing telling you that?
565
00:34:45,705 --> 00:34:49,893
Am I a masochist? Am I looking
to be tormented further?
566
00:34:49,936 --> 00:34:53,078
I'm trying to show
you just how
567
00:34:53,121 --> 00:34:57,135
awful this got,
how commanding these rages got.
568
00:35:00,058 --> 00:35:03,942
- He's gonna use a scarf on her
to strangle her to death.
569
00:35:07,912 --> 00:35:10,137
Then he decapitates her.
570
00:35:12,711 --> 00:35:14,413
- Why did you keep the heads?
571
00:35:14,456 --> 00:35:16,550
Why did you cut them off,
and why did you keep them?
572
00:35:16,594 --> 00:35:19,125
- Something out
of my childhood.
573
00:35:19,169 --> 00:35:21,655
Um...
574
00:35:21,700 --> 00:35:23,751
I could put it on an incident,
I mean,
575
00:35:23,794 --> 00:35:26,585
my father chopping the heads
off our two pet chickens
576
00:35:26,629 --> 00:35:29,639
and my mother insisting
that I eat them for dinner.
577
00:35:29,683 --> 00:35:31,647
Uh
you know?
578
00:35:31,690 --> 00:35:33,567
We could say it was something
that simple.
579
00:35:33,610 --> 00:35:35,051
I don't think it was.
580
00:35:35,094 --> 00:35:37,625
Now, my dad heads out back
with a hatchet.
581
00:35:38,017 --> 00:35:39,761
I got on my bike,
and I rode over.
582
00:35:39,806 --> 00:35:41,507
I tried to stop it.
I remember that.
583
00:35:41,550 --> 00:35:44,038
I got on a bike,
rode around the block.
584
00:35:44,082 --> 00:35:48,009
I was crying. I haven't talked
about that for a lot of years.
585
00:35:48,052 --> 00:35:50,714
I'm sure that may have
implemented something.
586
00:35:50,757 --> 00:35:54,030
That may have gotten something
rolling along fantasy lines,
587
00:35:54,073 --> 00:35:55,905
but it took a lot of years
of development
588
00:35:55,949 --> 00:35:58,261
along those lines
to really get off.
589
00:36:02,275 --> 00:36:04,065
- The day after he murdered
Aiko Koo,
590
00:36:04,108 --> 00:36:06,115
he had to see a psychiatrist.
591
00:36:06,988 --> 00:36:09,082
- When he got out
of Atascadero as a juvenile,
592
00:36:09,125 --> 00:36:11,045
he had to go through
a certain period of time
593
00:36:11,089 --> 00:36:12,747
and then be reevaluated.
594
00:36:13,926 --> 00:36:16,195
- Kemper was smart.
595
00:36:16,238 --> 00:36:18,375
He knew what they were looking
for to determine
596
00:36:18,418 --> 00:36:20,993
whether or not
someone was sane or insane,
597
00:36:21,037 --> 00:36:24,222
and because of that,
he did extremely well.
598
00:36:26,404 --> 00:36:28,672
- Kemper is gonna say,
"You guys cured me
599
00:36:28,716 --> 00:36:30,244
over there at Atascadero.
600
00:36:30,287 --> 00:36:32,293
You guys are phenomenal."
601
00:36:32,337 --> 00:36:35,041
And so the psychiatrist
did what he thought was
602
00:36:35,085 --> 00:36:37,093
right and basically said,
"He's fine.
603
00:36:37,136 --> 00:36:38,882
He doesn't need us anymore."
604
00:36:42,939 --> 00:36:46,909
- Well, what they didn't know
is that Aiko Koo's head
605
00:36:46,952 --> 00:36:50,313
happened to be
in the trunk of his vehicle.
606
00:36:54,370 --> 00:36:59,213
- He had bodies in his trunk
when he was declared sane.
607
00:36:59,257 --> 00:37:02,268
It really bothered me
as a therapist
608
00:37:02,311 --> 00:37:06,238
that two psychiatrists
had declared him sane.
609
00:37:06,282 --> 00:37:08,158
I was horrified.
610
00:37:09,945 --> 00:37:11,823
- In the meantime,
bodies were turning up
611
00:37:11,866 --> 00:37:14,309
in the city of Santa Cruz
that might've been linked
612
00:37:14,352 --> 00:37:17,189
toward the drug industry,
but we had no idea.
613
00:37:24,650 --> 00:37:28,402
- My first day at work, my very
first story that I wrote
614
00:37:28,446 --> 00:37:31,370
was that a head had been found
in the Santa Cruz mountains.
615
00:37:31,413 --> 00:37:33,202
It was a shock to everybody.
616
00:37:35,121 --> 00:37:37,608
- It's like a fog settled
over the county.
617
00:37:37,652 --> 00:37:39,484
People were scared.
618
00:37:39,527 --> 00:37:42,102
- Being a small person
--I'm 5'1"--
619
00:37:42,145 --> 00:37:43,541
I never saw myself
as somebody
620
00:37:43,585 --> 00:37:46,291
that could defend myself.
I never felt safe.
621
00:37:46,335 --> 00:37:48,298
- Police were besides
themselves.
622
00:37:48,342 --> 00:37:50,349
What the hell
do they have going on here?
623
00:37:50,392 --> 00:37:53,359
Surf City was now evolving
into Murder City.
624
00:37:54,363 --> 00:37:55,976
- We were under a lot
of pressure.
625
00:37:56,020 --> 00:37:58,333
People would always want
to know what's happening.
626
00:37:58,377 --> 00:37:59,772
Why is this happening?
627
00:37:59,816 --> 00:38:01,475
We had no idea.
628
00:38:01,518 --> 00:38:03,481
We didn't have
any real crime scenes,
629
00:38:03,525 --> 00:38:06,098
so the evidence
couldn't be traced back.
630
00:38:06,141 --> 00:38:08,499
- There is no apparent motive.
631
00:38:08,542 --> 00:38:10,288
The victims are all unrelated,
632
00:38:10,332 --> 00:38:12,687
and they're just unprovoked,
senseless killings.
633
00:38:12,730 --> 00:38:14,389
- There wasn't DNA evidence.
634
00:38:14,433 --> 00:38:15,610
There wasn't anything
like that,
635
00:38:15,653 --> 00:38:17,443
so they were trying to track
636
00:38:17,486 --> 00:38:19,625
where bodies were coming from,
637
00:38:19,668 --> 00:38:21,500
what pattern there was
in there, and it was hard
638
00:38:21,544 --> 00:38:23,289
to figure out
any sort of pattern.
639
00:38:23,333 --> 00:38:25,471
They would just throw up
their hands and say,
640
00:38:25,514 --> 00:38:27,216
"We don't know
what's happening."
641
00:38:34,197 --> 00:38:36,466
- We're still fighting.
She's still belittling.
642
00:38:36,510 --> 00:38:38,298
I'm like a puppet on a string.
643
00:38:38,341 --> 00:38:39,608
- It's like boiling water,
644
00:38:39,651 --> 00:38:41,439
and he can only take
so much of this.
645
00:38:42,618 --> 00:38:45,759
- I knew a week before she died
I was gonna kill my mother.
646
00:39:04,171 --> 00:39:06,833
- The minute he'd get upset
with something,
647
00:39:06,876 --> 00:39:09,887
his immediate response
was to kill.
648
00:39:09,930 --> 00:39:13,377
- And once he did it once,
it was so stimulating
649
00:39:13,421 --> 00:39:15,908
and so arousing that the urge
650
00:39:15,951 --> 00:39:19,529
or the compulsion to do it
again just took over.
651
00:39:19,574 --> 00:39:21,316
- But rather than strike out
at mom at this point,
652
00:39:21,361 --> 00:39:22,975
he's going on the hunt.
653
00:39:25,506 --> 00:39:27,949
He's a lion on
the Serengeti plain
654
00:39:27,993 --> 00:39:30,087
looking for that weak,
vulnerable person.
655
00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:33,097
- I was picking up some
very lovely young women.
656
00:39:33,839 --> 00:39:36,370
You know what we were talking
about as we're driving around?
657
00:39:36,414 --> 00:39:38,334
Almost as often as not,
658
00:39:38,377 --> 00:39:40,602
this guy that's going
around doing this stuff,
659
00:39:40,646 --> 00:39:42,522
and the second
they started talking that,
660
00:39:42,566 --> 00:39:45,533
they didn't realize it, but
they were getting a free ride.
661
00:39:45,576 --> 00:39:48,456
I couldn't touch that
with a 10-foot pole, I swear.
662
00:39:48,499 --> 00:39:50,375
But they'd be telling me
all about this guy,
663
00:39:50,418 --> 00:39:51,860
and they're comparing notes,
664
00:39:51,903 --> 00:39:53,473
speculating on
what he looks like,
665
00:39:53,516 --> 00:39:56,310
how he carries himself,
why he's doing this stuff,
666
00:39:56,353 --> 00:39:57,663
telling me about it.
667
00:39:58,404 --> 00:39:59,930
- So how come they get
in a car
668
00:39:59,974 --> 00:40:01,283
with somebody at that time?
669
00:40:01,327 --> 00:40:03,464
- She judged me
not to be that guy.
670
00:40:05,384 --> 00:40:07,129
I didn't look like him.
671
00:40:10,752 --> 00:40:13,150
- He was getting
better and better.
672
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:21,659
- And one of the things
that he told me was,
673
00:40:21,702 --> 00:40:24,015
eventually,
when he picked somebody up,
674
00:40:24,059 --> 00:40:25,672
once they got in and sat down
675
00:40:25,715 --> 00:40:27,461
and they closed
the passenger door,
676
00:40:28,683 --> 00:40:32,130
he would reach across that
passenger, open up the door,
677
00:40:32,174 --> 00:40:33,788
and close it,
pretending to make sure
678
00:40:33,832 --> 00:40:36,144
that the door was closed,
but in actuality
679
00:40:36,188 --> 00:40:38,456
he was dropping
a ChapStick in the track,
680
00:40:38,499 --> 00:40:41,161
so that you could not open
the door from the inside.
681
00:40:44,608 --> 00:40:46,660
And he figured once
they got in the car,
682
00:40:46,703 --> 00:40:48,622
they belonged to him.
683
00:41:36,398 --> 00:41:38,360
- When he decapitated her,
684
00:41:38,405 --> 00:41:40,848
he then went outside
with the head
685
00:41:41,808 --> 00:41:44,643
and placed this victim's
head in the ground,
686
00:41:44,687 --> 00:41:48,309
facing up at mom's window.
Why'd you do that?
687
00:41:48,353 --> 00:41:50,490
And he laughs, and he says,
688
00:41:50,534 --> 00:41:53,675
"Because Mom always wanted
people to look up to her.
689
00:41:53,719 --> 00:41:55,291
That's why I did it."
690
00:41:55,334 --> 00:41:57,339
He was boasting
about the crime.
691
00:41:58,344 --> 00:42:01,703
- Meanwhile, why his mother
didn't know that
692
00:42:01,747 --> 00:42:04,627
there had been digging going on
in the back yard, I don't know.
693
00:42:04,671 --> 00:42:06,852
Neighbors could've found out.
It was a small backyard.
694
00:42:06,895 --> 00:42:08,162
There was a fence around it,
695
00:42:08,205 --> 00:42:09,774
but, you know,
it was very visible
696
00:42:09,818 --> 00:42:12,349
from the other houses.
I'm just trying to think
697
00:42:12,392 --> 00:42:14,181
what time of day
he must've buried them.
698
00:42:14,225 --> 00:42:17,497
- It was getting easier to do.
I was getting better at it.
699
00:42:17,541 --> 00:42:18,894
I was getting less detectible.
700
00:42:18,937 --> 00:42:22,950
I started flaunting
that invisibility.
701
00:42:22,994 --> 00:42:24,871
Severing a human head at night
702
00:42:24,915 --> 00:42:27,664
in front of my mother's
residence with her at home,
703
00:42:27,707 --> 00:42:29,539
my neighbors at home upstairs,
704
00:42:29,583 --> 00:42:31,852
their picture window open,
the curtains open.
705
00:42:31,896 --> 00:42:33,903
11:00 at night,
the lights are on.
706
00:42:33,947 --> 00:42:36,694
All they have to do is walk
by, look out, and I've had it.
707
00:42:37,655 --> 00:42:40,971
To be walking up the stairs
with a camera bag
708
00:42:41,014 --> 00:42:42,933
that belonged to a young woman
709
00:42:42,978 --> 00:42:44,811
that had her
severed head in it,
710
00:42:44,854 --> 00:42:47,777
walking up to my apartment,
past a happy young couple
711
00:42:47,822 --> 00:42:49,478
coming down the stairs
712
00:42:49,521 --> 00:42:52,096
who nodded and smiled at me
713
00:42:52,139 --> 00:42:55,063
as they went by.
"Good evening."
714
00:42:55,107 --> 00:42:56,678
And they're going out
on a date,
715
00:42:56,721 --> 00:42:58,336
where I'd love to be going,
716
00:42:58,379 --> 00:43:00,344
and I'm aware of both
of these realities,
717
00:43:00,387 --> 00:43:03,702
and the distance between those
is so dramatic,
718
00:43:03,746 --> 00:43:08,240
so amazing,
so violent that it really--
719
00:43:08,283 --> 00:43:10,727
I could feel the wheels
squeaking inside.
720
00:43:10,770 --> 00:43:12,777
Some people go crazy
at that point.
721
00:43:12,821 --> 00:43:14,610
I felt it.
It was one hell of a tweak,
722
00:43:14,654 --> 00:43:16,748
and I imagine at that point
some people break,
723
00:43:16,791 --> 00:43:18,929
but I didn't literally
go insane.
724
00:43:18,972 --> 00:43:20,762
I didn't get lost.
725
00:43:28,091 --> 00:43:31,800
- Remember, Edmund Kemper
wanted to be a policeman,
726
00:43:31,843 --> 00:43:34,331
but there was no way
he was gonna be a policeman,
727
00:43:34,374 --> 00:43:36,338
but he did like to hang out
with the policemen
728
00:43:36,381 --> 00:43:38,825
at the Jury Room
on Ocean Street.
729
00:43:40,919 --> 00:43:42,969
And he knew them.
He drank with them.
730
00:43:44,060 --> 00:43:46,154
- Sleazy little bar
731
00:43:46,199 --> 00:43:48,904
across from the courthouse
in Santa Cruz.
732
00:43:49,864 --> 00:43:52,045
A lot of cops would go there
in those days
733
00:43:52,088 --> 00:43:54,182
and have a drink.
734
00:43:57,367 --> 00:43:59,418
He loved to hang out there.
735
00:44:00,945 --> 00:44:02,385
He was a real groupie.
736
00:44:02,429 --> 00:44:04,087
- It's what they call
a wannabe.
737
00:44:07,097 --> 00:44:09,802
- They'd buy me a beer.
I'd buy them a beer.
738
00:44:09,846 --> 00:44:12,420
Casual relationships.
But that was--I was poking
739
00:44:12,464 --> 00:44:15,126
around a little bit, trying
to find some things out.
740
00:44:15,169 --> 00:44:17,263
I knew they wouldn't be privy
to hot information,
741
00:44:17,307 --> 00:44:19,314
but there were some things
that were bothering me.
742
00:44:19,358 --> 00:44:21,058
Like, were there
any speculations
743
00:44:21,102 --> 00:44:22,804
on how they were dying.
744
00:44:22,847 --> 00:44:24,505
- Did the cops like you?
745
00:44:26,077 --> 00:44:27,909
- I could say,
a friendly nuisance.
746
00:44:27,952 --> 00:44:31,137
I got in the way,
and it was deliberate.
747
00:44:31,181 --> 00:44:33,057
Friendly nuisances
are dismissed.
748
00:44:34,540 --> 00:44:37,945
- He was just trying to gain
whatever information he can.
749
00:44:37,988 --> 00:44:40,343
If he overheard
somebody say, "Well,
750
00:44:40,387 --> 00:44:42,220
this guy did this,
and he shouldn't have
751
00:44:42,263 --> 00:44:44,227
done it that way.
He should've done it this way.
752
00:44:44,270 --> 00:44:48,895
- The dynamics of this type
of behavior are very important
753
00:44:48,938 --> 00:44:50,990
to make him feel unique,
754
00:44:51,033 --> 00:44:52,517
to make him feel
755
00:44:52,560 --> 00:44:55,047
ahead of everybody else,
of getting away with it.
756
00:44:55,091 --> 00:44:57,448
He's kind of the super killer,
757
00:44:57,491 --> 00:45:00,021
not just an ordinary killer,
758
00:45:00,064 --> 00:45:02,377
that he can put it
over on them.
759
00:45:03,467 --> 00:45:05,082
- High intelligence like that
760
00:45:05,126 --> 00:45:07,482
helps Kemper
in avoiding detection.
761
00:45:07,526 --> 00:45:09,053
- How did you get
the knowledge
762
00:45:09,096 --> 00:45:11,061
to outsmart the police?
763
00:45:11,104 --> 00:45:13,765
- Watching television,
believe it or not.
764
00:45:14,462 --> 00:45:16,513
Joseph Wambaugh,
"Police Story."
765
00:45:16,556 --> 00:45:19,741
I got some tremendous insights
into not just the gimmicks,
766
00:45:19,785 --> 00:45:21,487
the actual things, the tidbits
767
00:45:21,531 --> 00:45:23,713
that you would pick up
from their procedures
768
00:45:23,756 --> 00:45:27,203
but the mechanics behind that,
the logic behind it
769
00:45:27,246 --> 00:45:29,427
was, I would not allow myself
to walk into
770
00:45:29,471 --> 00:45:32,569
even a potential trap
of behavior.
771
00:45:33,617 --> 00:45:37,326
And one of those was talking
about those crimes too much
772
00:45:37,369 --> 00:45:40,640
to people, initiating
conversations about that.
773
00:45:40,685 --> 00:45:44,873
- He likes to claim that he's
smarter than everybody else.
774
00:45:44,917 --> 00:45:46,400
He may be.
775
00:45:52,682 --> 00:45:55,213
- Some police department, now,
they actually
776
00:45:55,256 --> 00:45:57,657
came to your house
to pick up a handgun.
777
00:45:57,700 --> 00:45:59,140
- Sheriff's representatives.
778
00:45:59,183 --> 00:46:01,671
One of the detectives was
779
00:46:01,714 --> 00:46:05,161
upset because he heard
I had a .44 magnum pistol
780
00:46:05,204 --> 00:46:09,350
and was a convicted
mental patient and killer.
781
00:46:10,746 --> 00:46:13,888
- I got a notification
that a man by the name
782
00:46:13,931 --> 00:46:17,901
of Edmund Emil Kemper III
had purchased a handgun.
783
00:46:17,944 --> 00:46:19,864
In looking at
Mr. Kemper's record,
784
00:46:19,908 --> 00:46:23,399
he had been convicted
of murdering his grandparents
785
00:46:23,442 --> 00:46:26,410
a few years earlier, so there
was some question as to
786
00:46:26,453 --> 00:46:28,897
whether or not he should be
allowed to own that gun,
787
00:46:28,941 --> 00:46:30,859
so when you look
at the dealer's record of sale,
788
00:46:30,902 --> 00:46:32,605
it gives
his physical description.
789
00:46:32,648 --> 00:46:34,611
- They joked about it
at the sheriff's department.
790
00:46:34,655 --> 00:46:36,445
This guy's 6'9" or 6'10".
791
00:46:36,488 --> 00:46:38,627
I'm gonna need some help
getting the gun away.
792
00:46:38,670 --> 00:46:40,327
- So being
the junior detective,
793
00:46:40,372 --> 00:46:41,899
I was the one
that was tasked with
794
00:46:41,942 --> 00:46:44,341
going out
and confiscating this weapon.
795
00:46:46,348 --> 00:46:48,443
So we went out
to Kemper's residence.
796
00:46:50,013 --> 00:46:51,498
- They came to take
the gun away,
797
00:46:51,541 --> 00:46:53,067
he and his sergeant detective.
798
00:46:53,111 --> 00:46:54,944
They were staking out
the wrong house.
799
00:46:54,988 --> 00:46:56,688
It was across the street,
and I'm playing around
800
00:46:56,732 --> 00:46:58,696
with the car,
standing next to the gun
801
00:46:58,739 --> 00:47:00,048
in the trunk.
802
00:47:01,226 --> 00:47:03,365
- So I told Don, I says,
"Hang on a second.
803
00:47:03,408 --> 00:47:06,113
Let's go talk to this guy
and see if he knows Kemper."
804
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:11,042
So I walk over, and by then
the gentleman in the car
805
00:47:11,087 --> 00:47:12,919
was lying across the seat
806
00:47:12,962 --> 00:47:15,014
like he's working up
under his dashboard,
807
00:47:15,057 --> 00:47:17,806
like, wires
or something like that.
808
00:47:17,850 --> 00:47:20,074
So I said, "Excuse me,
can I talk to you?"
809
00:47:20,118 --> 00:47:23,215
The guy says, "Sure."
So he gets out of the car,
810
00:47:23,260 --> 00:47:26,837
and he gets out of the car,
and he gets out of the car.
811
00:47:27,928 --> 00:47:31,070
He's 6'9", 285 pounds.
812
00:47:31,113 --> 00:47:32,466
I told Don. I said,
813
00:47:32,509 --> 00:47:33,907
"I think we found
the right guy."
814
00:47:35,868 --> 00:47:39,839
- I knew a week before she died
I was gonna murder my mother.
815
00:47:39,882 --> 00:47:42,064
- He drags her
over into the kitchen.
816
00:47:42,108 --> 00:47:46,122
- I cut off her head,
and I humiliated her corpse.
817
00:47:46,165 --> 00:47:47,955
- Having sex
with his mother's head,
818
00:47:47,998 --> 00:47:50,224
I don't know
what it says psychologically.
819
00:47:50,267 --> 00:47:54,369
- Six young women dead because
of the way she raises her son,
820
00:47:54,412 --> 00:47:57,248
and what's her closing words?
821
00:47:57,292 --> 00:47:59,735
"I suppose you want to sit up
all night and talk."
822
00:47:59,778 --> 00:48:01,697
God, I wish I had.
823
00:48:19,456 --> 00:48:21,768
- A week ago today, four more
bodies were discovered
824
00:48:21,812 --> 00:48:23,775
in a connected series
of murders.
825
00:48:23,820 --> 00:48:27,528
- Neither the mayor nor police
are making any predictions
826
00:48:27,572 --> 00:48:30,756
as to when or how
an arrest will be made.
827
00:48:30,799 --> 00:48:32,720
- Women hitchhikers
were in danger.
828
00:48:32,764 --> 00:48:34,726
Not just were body parts
flowing in,
829
00:48:34,770 --> 00:48:37,737
but people were missing,
and nobody was understanding.
830
00:48:49,823 --> 00:48:51,960
- They come over and asked
me about,
831
00:48:52,004 --> 00:48:54,621
"Excuse me, sir, uh,
832
00:48:54,665 --> 00:48:56,803
do you know who lives in this
house across the street here?"
833
00:48:56,847 --> 00:48:59,465
And they were looking for me
and didn't even know that--
834
00:48:59,508 --> 00:49:01,559
see what I mean?
Bad news.
835
00:49:01,603 --> 00:49:04,875
They said, "Are you Ed Kemper?"
Yes. And it goes on.
836
00:49:09,064 --> 00:49:10,896
- I explained to him
why we were there,
837
00:49:10,939 --> 00:49:12,598
what our position is,
that we needed
838
00:49:12,642 --> 00:49:14,648
to confiscate this handgun.
839
00:49:15,740 --> 00:49:18,051
So he said, "Sure, no problem."
He was very cooperative.
840
00:49:18,095 --> 00:49:21,673
- And, uh, I needed to find out
what they were looking for,
841
00:49:21,716 --> 00:49:24,029
the murder weapon,
the .22 automatic
842
00:49:24,072 --> 00:49:26,428
or the .44 magnum,
and I don't want to advertise
843
00:49:26,472 --> 00:49:28,523
that I've got
a whole bunch of guns.
844
00:49:29,090 --> 00:49:30,617
Uh...
845
00:49:31,709 --> 00:49:35,852
So I made a comment to divine
between the two,
846
00:49:35,897 --> 00:49:38,470
and I said, "Yes, quite
a little gun, isn't it?"
847
00:49:38,514 --> 00:49:42,484
And he retorted, "A .44 magnum?
I hope so."
848
00:49:42,529 --> 00:49:45,495
And I said, "Phew, okay,"
because that loaded .22
849
00:49:45,539 --> 00:49:47,152
was under the front seat
and would guarantee me
850
00:49:47,196 --> 00:49:49,683
an arrest
right on the spot,
851
00:49:49,727 --> 00:49:52,258
and the .44 was in the trunk.
852
00:49:55,094 --> 00:49:56,752
And he's thinking,
"Boy, this is a really nice
853
00:49:56,796 --> 00:49:58,062
and helpful guy here."
854
00:49:58,934 --> 00:50:01,595
- We go to the trunk
of his car.
855
00:50:01,638 --> 00:50:03,644
Instinctively,
my partner and I
856
00:50:03,688 --> 00:50:06,263
went to each side of the car.
857
00:50:07,791 --> 00:50:10,670
And so as soon as he popped
open the trunk,
858
00:50:10,714 --> 00:50:13,855
we told him just to step back
and we would take it.
859
00:50:14,946 --> 00:50:16,341
So we opened up the trunk,
860
00:50:16,385 --> 00:50:18,916
and there was--it's,
like, a blanket,
861
00:50:18,960 --> 00:50:20,269
and you unroll the blanket,
862
00:50:20,313 --> 00:50:21,927
and there was
this western holster
863
00:50:21,971 --> 00:50:25,372
with this huge
.44 magnum revolver in there,
864
00:50:25,417 --> 00:50:26,857
so we took it.
865
00:50:28,515 --> 00:50:30,348
- You had some other stuff
in the house too, yeah?
866
00:50:30,391 --> 00:50:33,052
- Yeah.
I had the personal effects
867
00:50:33,096 --> 00:50:35,321
and identification
of the last two co-eds
868
00:50:35,365 --> 00:50:38,288
that had been murdered
about two months before
869
00:50:38,331 --> 00:50:41,953
right next to the guns
in the closet, in a box.
870
00:50:42,956 --> 00:50:44,788
- Could he have seen it?
- No.
871
00:50:44,832 --> 00:50:46,840
But when he arrested me
for having all those guns
872
00:50:46,883 --> 00:50:48,715
and went through the rest
of the closet looking to see
873
00:50:48,759 --> 00:50:50,331
if there were any pistols
or anything else,
874
00:50:50,374 --> 00:50:52,031
he wouldn't have--couldn't have
helped notice
875
00:50:52,075 --> 00:50:54,387
a purse, a book bag,
876
00:50:54,431 --> 00:50:56,264
and co-ed I.D.
inside of those
877
00:50:56,307 --> 00:50:59,274
belonging to their two
latest murder victims.
878
00:51:01,456 --> 00:51:04,422
- He told me later
that had Don and I
879
00:51:04,466 --> 00:51:07,084
not separated
to each side of the car,
880
00:51:07,128 --> 00:51:09,047
that he was contemplating
getting the gun out
881
00:51:09,090 --> 00:51:10,836
and killing both of us.
882
00:51:10,879 --> 00:51:12,931
In the meantime,
all of these other homicides
883
00:51:12,974 --> 00:51:15,855
are occurring,
and we had no clue.
884
00:51:16,552 --> 00:51:18,427
He was a very smart guy.
885
00:51:30,122 --> 00:51:32,128
- We're still fighting.
She's still belittling me,
886
00:51:32,172 --> 00:51:34,484
like a puppet on a string.
She knows all my buttons,
887
00:51:34,527 --> 00:51:36,578
and I dance like a puppet
with that pain,
888
00:51:36,622 --> 00:51:38,673
and it even got physical
889
00:51:40,374 --> 00:51:43,079
to where I had physically
grabbed her
890
00:51:43,123 --> 00:51:44,999
and thrown her onto her bed,
891
00:51:45,043 --> 00:51:46,613
trying to emphasize
the point that she's--
892
00:51:46,656 --> 00:51:48,534
I was threatening to kill her.
893
00:51:54,248 --> 00:51:57,345
- Ed Kemper's mother was
an administrative assistant
894
00:51:57,390 --> 00:51:59,440
at UC Santa Cruz.
895
00:51:59,484 --> 00:52:01,054
- She was well liked.
896
00:52:01,098 --> 00:52:03,193
She was integrated
into the campus.
897
00:52:04,677 --> 00:52:06,203
She clearly was part of that
898
00:52:06,248 --> 00:52:08,080
Santa Cruz community
at the time.
899
00:52:08,124 --> 00:52:09,562
- You were involved
in the campus
900
00:52:09,606 --> 00:52:11,090
because your mother
worked there.
901
00:52:11,134 --> 00:52:12,311
- Yes.
902
00:52:13,359 --> 00:52:15,366
I was also involved
in killing co-eds
903
00:52:15,409 --> 00:52:17,329
because my mother
was associated
904
00:52:17,373 --> 00:52:20,078
with college work,
college co-eds,
905
00:52:20,121 --> 00:52:21,562
women,
906
00:52:21,605 --> 00:52:24,659
and had had a very strong
and violently
907
00:52:24,702 --> 00:52:30,331
outspoken position on men
for much of my upbringing.
908
00:52:36,613 --> 00:52:38,751
- The university had said
only to accept rides
909
00:52:38,795 --> 00:52:42,155
from people with UC stickers.
Well, his mom worked at UC,
910
00:52:42,198 --> 00:52:44,904
and he was in a car
that had a UC sticker.
911
00:52:48,656 --> 00:52:50,793
- So he looked safe,
912
00:52:50,837 --> 00:52:53,761
and that's how
he was so successful.
913
00:52:58,866 --> 00:53:00,524
- You could see the pattern.
914
00:53:00,567 --> 00:53:03,272
- After a huge fight
with his mother
915
00:53:03,316 --> 00:53:06,413
where they had screamed
at each other for hours...
916
00:53:08,289 --> 00:53:09,773
he would go out and kill.
917
00:53:11,693 --> 00:53:15,357
- The next victims,
Rosalind Thorpe and Alice Liu
918
00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:18,236
were UC Santa Cruz students
919
00:53:18,281 --> 00:53:21,030
who just were too trusting
and got in the car.
920
00:53:23,429 --> 00:53:25,785
- Roz Thorpe
was a free spirit.
921
00:53:27,007 --> 00:53:31,980
She was bright and lively.
922
00:53:32,024 --> 00:53:34,904
When she'd get a new record,
she'd run into my office
923
00:53:34,947 --> 00:53:36,955
and say, "Got to hear this,
got to hear this."
924
00:53:39,048 --> 00:53:43,019
When Roz went missing,
they knocked on my door
925
00:53:43,063 --> 00:53:46,073
and said did I know
where Roz Thorpe was.
926
00:53:46,117 --> 00:53:48,822
I knew that they were
beginning to worry
927
00:53:48,867 --> 00:53:50,873
about the existence
of this killer.
928
00:53:53,883 --> 00:53:57,111
And I immediately, um...
929
00:53:58,944 --> 00:54:00,428
worried.
930
00:54:20,148 --> 00:54:22,898
- Edmund Kemper
by this time was very
931
00:54:22,941 --> 00:54:24,948
experienced
at what he was doing.
932
00:54:24,992 --> 00:54:27,697
- I thought it was fascinating,
you know, with him
933
00:54:27,741 --> 00:54:30,271
was, how do you make them
feel comfortable?
934
00:54:30,314 --> 00:54:32,148
What I do, I pull up
and look at them
935
00:54:32,192 --> 00:54:33,848
and I wanted myself kinda
almost look like
936
00:54:33,892 --> 00:54:36,554
a little businessman
but having a place to go,
937
00:54:36,597 --> 00:54:38,780
so I'd look at my watch.
938
00:54:38,823 --> 00:54:41,266
By looking at my watch,
it tells them
939
00:54:41,310 --> 00:54:43,709
that I have an appointment.
I have someplace
940
00:54:43,753 --> 00:54:46,675
to go to, and that kind of,
I believe,
941
00:54:46,719 --> 00:54:48,945
relieved any kind
of stress or hesitation
942
00:54:48,989 --> 00:54:51,214
that they had getting
into the car.
943
00:55:24,025 --> 00:55:25,899
- He says that
she's moving around,
944
00:55:25,943 --> 00:55:27,296
trying to cover herself.
945
00:55:27,339 --> 00:55:28,779
She's holding her hands up,
946
00:55:28,823 --> 00:55:31,049
so she gets shot
through the hand.
947
00:56:06,302 --> 00:56:08,570
- He's got both victims
in the car.
948
00:56:10,010 --> 00:56:13,065
He has a dead girl in the front
949
00:56:13,109 --> 00:56:17,035
and a girl that is not dead
but moaning in the back.
950
00:56:20,525 --> 00:56:22,402
He said the two policemen,
they were checking
951
00:56:22,445 --> 00:56:24,583
all of the cars going through.
952
00:56:24,626 --> 00:56:26,982
- When I drove up to
the two officers
953
00:56:27,026 --> 00:56:28,903
and stopped, I mean,
they got very industrious
954
00:56:28,947 --> 00:56:30,952
about looking at me,
955
00:56:30,995 --> 00:56:35,316
and I used that opportunity
to glare at them
956
00:56:35,360 --> 00:56:38,458
with that fascist look, like,
"Oh, you fascist pigs.
957
00:56:38,501 --> 00:56:40,115
You'd like to shoot me,
wouldn't you?"
958
00:56:40,159 --> 00:56:41,511
I had sort of a bored,
annoyed,
959
00:56:41,555 --> 00:56:43,170
tired, end of the day,
960
00:56:43,214 --> 00:56:45,132
"I don't need you guys
right now" look
961
00:56:45,176 --> 00:56:47,576
and they backed off
at that point.
962
00:56:47,619 --> 00:56:48,710
- He gets away with it.
963
00:57:22,698 --> 00:57:24,619
- He went into detail
in saying
964
00:57:24,662 --> 00:57:26,974
how he dismembered them
965
00:57:27,017 --> 00:57:29,766
and how one of them
had more fat on her body
966
00:57:29,810 --> 00:57:31,905
than the rest of them did,
and he said he learned
967
00:57:31,948 --> 00:57:35,265
about cutting through
fat of a human body,
968
00:57:35,308 --> 00:57:37,794
and it just turned my stomach.
969
00:58:15,578 --> 00:58:19,942
- When they found
her body parts, uh,
970
00:58:19,986 --> 00:58:22,472
it was shocking.
971
00:58:22,516 --> 00:58:26,312
The students kept coming into
my office to talk about it.
972
00:58:26,356 --> 00:58:30,805
We knew that something
needed to be done to
973
00:58:30,849 --> 00:58:34,035
address the students
and engage them
974
00:58:34,078 --> 00:58:35,868
in expressing their feelings
975
00:58:35,911 --> 00:58:38,223
and dealing with grief
and mourning,
976
00:58:38,266 --> 00:58:41,233
so they decided
to hold this big event,
977
00:58:41,276 --> 00:58:44,200
and about 1,000 students
and faculty showed up.
978
00:58:44,244 --> 00:58:47,385
- There was a memorial service
for two of the victims.
979
00:58:47,429 --> 00:58:49,088
- Yes.
980
00:58:49,131 --> 00:58:51,269
- Were you tempted to go?
- Yes.
981
00:58:52,360 --> 00:58:54,322
I had seen one
too many episodes
982
00:58:54,366 --> 00:58:56,242
of one too many crime shows
983
00:58:56,286 --> 00:58:59,210
where that is one of the
available resources for clues,
984
00:58:59,253 --> 00:59:01,303
tracking down the attenders.
Take--one man
985
00:59:01,346 --> 00:59:03,311
taking pictures
of the people there
986
00:59:03,354 --> 00:59:06,278
to eliminate
as potential suspects.
987
00:59:06,322 --> 00:59:08,283
- He's forensically aware,
988
00:59:08,327 --> 00:59:11,512
he has a good knowledge base
of criminal investigation,
989
00:59:11,556 --> 00:59:14,218
and he's trying his best
to elude law enforcement.
990
00:59:19,149 --> 00:59:21,373
- She says, "You're nothing,
you'll never amount
991
00:59:21,416 --> 00:59:24,252
to anything, and you're
just like your father."
992
00:59:24,296 --> 00:59:25,518
It's like boiling water,
993
00:59:25,562 --> 00:59:27,350
and he can only take
so much of this,
994
00:59:27,394 --> 00:59:30,798
and it's going to, you know,
overflow, and that was it.
995
00:59:38,302 --> 00:59:41,619
It was springtime.
It was April.
996
00:59:43,451 --> 00:59:45,589
And for two months
I hadn't killed, and I said,
997
00:59:45,633 --> 00:59:48,904
"It's not going to happen
to any more girls.
998
00:59:48,948 --> 00:59:50,868
It's got to stay between me
and my mother."
999
00:59:53,573 --> 00:59:57,500
I said, "She's got to die,
or more girls are gonna die,"
1000
00:59:57,544 --> 01:00:00,204
and that's when I decided
I'm going to murder my mother.
1001
01:00:02,997 --> 01:00:06,836
I knew a week before she died
I was gonna kill her.
1002
01:00:06,880 --> 01:00:08,887
And she went out to a party.
She got soused.
1003
01:00:08,931 --> 01:00:12,552
She came home, went to sleep.
I was woken up by that.
1004
01:00:12,595 --> 01:00:16,434
I got--came out.
I walked up to her bed.
1005
01:00:16,478 --> 01:00:18,791
She's laying there,
reading a paperback.
1006
01:00:19,925 --> 01:00:21,889
- She says,
in a real sarcastic way,
1007
01:00:21,933 --> 01:00:23,940
"Oh, you're probably gonna
want to talk now, huh?
1008
01:00:23,984 --> 01:00:25,771
You're gonna want to talk."
1009
01:00:30,092 --> 01:00:33,408
- Sh--. I looked at her.
I said, "No."
1010
01:00:33,452 --> 01:00:35,458
I said, "Good night."
1011
01:00:39,602 --> 01:00:41,696
And I knew
I was gonna kill her.
1012
01:00:51,775 --> 01:00:54,655
- He said that he had gone
into her room
1013
01:00:54,699 --> 01:00:57,622
early in the morning, like,
4:00, 5:00 in the morning.
1014
01:01:04,559 --> 01:01:07,046
- He killed her
when she was sound asleep.
1015
01:01:07,090 --> 01:01:09,665
He beat her to death
with a claw hammer.
1016
01:01:11,584 --> 01:01:14,682
- Sadism is the infliction
of pain on someone else,
1017
01:01:14,725 --> 01:01:17,822
but more basic
than inflicting pain
1018
01:01:17,866 --> 01:01:20,703
is the sadist having
total control
1019
01:01:20,746 --> 01:01:23,582
and domination
over someone else,
1020
01:01:23,626 --> 01:01:27,771
where inflicting pain is one
way the sadist assures himself
1021
01:01:27,815 --> 01:01:31,261
that he is in fact in control
of her life and death.
1022
01:01:31,305 --> 01:01:33,835
Killing his mother
was very, very different,
1023
01:01:33,878 --> 01:01:35,843
up close and personal.
1024
01:01:35,886 --> 01:01:38,635
- He's not finished yet.
He then takes the mother
1025
01:01:38,679 --> 01:01:40,686
and drags her
over into the kitchen.
1026
01:01:42,562 --> 01:01:48,102
- I cut off her head,
and I humiliated her corpse.
1027
01:01:49,368 --> 01:01:52,204
- He put it on the mantel.
He threw darts at it.
1028
01:01:52,248 --> 01:01:54,560
- And he spends over an hour
1029
01:01:54,603 --> 01:01:56,828
chewing her out
and yelling at her.
1030
01:01:58,923 --> 01:02:00,624
- It hurts.
1031
01:02:01,847 --> 01:02:04,245
'Cause I'm not a lizard.
I'm not from under a rock.
1032
01:02:04,289 --> 01:02:06,602
I came out of her vagina.
1033
01:02:06,646 --> 01:02:08,959
I came out of my mother,
1034
01:02:09,002 --> 01:02:11,358
and in a rage,
I went right back in.
1035
01:02:13,626 --> 01:02:16,767
- He hated her.
He wanted to defile her
1036
01:02:16,812 --> 01:02:19,778
in any possible way
that he could, and he did it.
1037
01:02:19,822 --> 01:02:21,743
- He does penetrate her head.
1038
01:02:21,786 --> 01:02:23,835
- Having sex
with his mother's head,
1039
01:02:23,879 --> 01:02:25,973
I don't know what it says
psychologically
1040
01:02:26,017 --> 01:02:29,813
because it's unstudied.
All we can do is speculate,
1041
01:02:29,857 --> 01:02:32,388
and I think the behavior
speaks for itself.
1042
01:02:35,529 --> 01:02:37,187
- It's not done.
1043
01:02:38,408 --> 01:02:39,979
He decided to cut out
her tongue
1044
01:02:40,022 --> 01:02:42,858
and rip out her larynx
'cause she's such a nag.
1045
01:02:42,903 --> 01:02:45,085
He then throws it down
the garbage disposal.
1046
01:02:46,001 --> 01:02:47,790
- He describes
throwing the larynx
1047
01:02:47,834 --> 01:02:50,101
into the garbage disposal,
popping out.
1048
01:02:50,145 --> 01:02:52,283
Him catching it,
throwing back it
1049
01:02:52,326 --> 01:02:54,726
in the garbage disposal,
popping out again.
1050
01:02:54,770 --> 01:02:56,995
- And he says, "Even now.
Even now, you bitch.
1051
01:02:57,040 --> 01:03:01,228
"Even now, after this,
you're still nagging me.
1052
01:03:01,271 --> 01:03:03,802
I hate you. You're still,
you know, nagging me."
1053
01:03:06,463 --> 01:03:08,862
- She just ridiculed him
his whole life,
1054
01:03:08,906 --> 01:03:11,960
and symbolically he just wanted
to take her voice box out
1055
01:03:12,004 --> 01:03:14,970
and throw it in the garbage
where he thought it belonged.
1056
01:03:16,017 --> 01:03:19,159
- Clearly he was trying to kill
his mother's voice,
1057
01:03:19,203 --> 01:03:21,559
even though she was dead.
1058
01:03:21,603 --> 01:03:25,442
- So there, you know.
1059
01:03:25,486 --> 01:03:29,369
Six young women dead because
of the way she raises her son
1060
01:03:29,413 --> 01:03:31,245
and the way her son is raised,
1061
01:03:31,288 --> 01:03:35,215
the way he grows up,
and what's her closing words?
1062
01:03:35,259 --> 01:03:38,967
"I suppose you want to sit up
all night and talk."
1063
01:03:39,011 --> 01:03:40,670
God, I wish I had.
1064
01:03:44,683 --> 01:03:50,094
I was suicidal, very disturbed,
1065
01:03:50,138 --> 01:03:52,101
grasping out at someone
'cause I was tired
1066
01:03:52,145 --> 01:03:54,238
of people walking
away from me.
1067
01:03:54,281 --> 01:03:56,333
- We studied him.
We know all about him.
1068
01:03:56,376 --> 01:03:59,125
We know your motivation.
We know what makes you tick.
1069
01:03:59,169 --> 01:04:02,616
Now we can profile
other serial offenders.
1070
01:04:20,416 --> 01:04:21,944
- I still loved my mother,
1071
01:04:21,988 --> 01:04:23,427
and it's hard for somebody
to comprehend
1072
01:04:23,470 --> 01:04:25,696
that you murdered
your mother through love.
1073
01:04:25,739 --> 01:04:28,881
It isn't a rational process.
It's a very painful process.
1074
01:04:28,925 --> 01:04:32,764
It isn't rational, and I've got
to still live with that.
1075
01:04:33,374 --> 01:04:35,295
- He decided
that he needed a reason
1076
01:04:35,338 --> 01:04:37,870
that nobody would be looking
for his mother,
1077
01:04:37,913 --> 01:04:40,355
so he chose her best friend,
1078
01:04:40,399 --> 01:04:44,108
and he said that if he were
to dispose of her best friend,
1079
01:04:44,152 --> 01:04:47,379
then people would not be
inquiring as to where they are
1080
01:04:47,423 --> 01:04:50,216
because they have a tendency
to go away for the weekend,
1081
01:04:50,260 --> 01:04:52,136
so he had called Mrs. Hallett.
1082
01:04:52,180 --> 01:04:54,012
- He invited her to dinner,
said he was gonna take
1083
01:04:54,056 --> 01:04:55,452
both women out to dinner.
1084
01:04:55,495 --> 01:04:57,460
- So she thought
that was just fine,
1085
01:04:57,503 --> 01:04:59,421
so she went over to
the house that night.
1086
01:05:03,218 --> 01:05:05,138
- She comes over.
1087
01:05:05,181 --> 01:05:07,363
Punches her once
in the abdomen.
1088
01:05:09,283 --> 01:05:11,290
And then he demonstrates,
'cause he's so big,
1089
01:05:11,334 --> 01:05:13,820
how he's able to get neck
in the crook of the arm.
1090
01:05:15,173 --> 01:05:17,049
And just to put on pressure
1091
01:05:17,093 --> 01:05:19,492
and where he hears
cracking in her neck.
1092
01:05:22,939 --> 01:05:25,992
- He told me that as he was
choking Mrs. Hallett,
1093
01:05:26,037 --> 01:05:28,044
he actually had an orgasm.
1094
01:05:33,280 --> 01:05:35,286
- He spends the night
with her in bed
1095
01:05:35,331 --> 01:05:38,383
and attempts sex acts
with the mother's friend.
1096
01:05:38,428 --> 01:05:41,656
The mother is still over
in another part of the bedroom.
1097
01:05:47,503 --> 01:05:49,379
- Kemper had freaked out,
1098
01:05:49,422 --> 01:05:52,128
had loaded an arsenal of guns
into his car,
1099
01:05:52,171 --> 01:05:54,135
and then he got
the hell out of town.
1100
01:05:56,447 --> 01:05:59,284
- He was hoping
for his gigantic man face
1101
01:05:59,328 --> 01:06:01,290
to be all over the news,
1102
01:06:01,334 --> 01:06:04,213
and he's driving
for three days.
1103
01:06:04,257 --> 01:06:07,791
He covers 1,500 miles,
popping NoDoz, NoDoz.
1104
01:06:08,576 --> 01:06:10,496
Turning on the radio,
hoping to hear
1105
01:06:10,540 --> 01:06:12,722
there's this serial killer.
1106
01:06:13,856 --> 01:06:17,607
- But what happened is,
nobody came after him.
1107
01:06:17,651 --> 01:06:19,528
- He got as far
as Pueblo, Colorado.
1108
01:06:26,291 --> 01:06:29,302
- One morning, at about 5:00
in the morning,
1109
01:06:29,346 --> 01:06:32,835
Edmund Kemper calls the
Santa Cruz Police Department.
1110
01:06:32,879 --> 01:06:35,279
- And he talks to
the dispatcher
1111
01:06:35,322 --> 01:06:37,765
and says, "You know, I'm the
guy that you're looking for,"
1112
01:06:37,809 --> 01:06:39,555
and the dispatcher
hangs up on him.
1113
01:06:39,598 --> 01:06:41,649
- The person on the other end
of the line
1114
01:06:41,693 --> 01:06:43,655
didn't believe him and didn't
1115
01:06:43,698 --> 01:06:45,880
want to wake somebody up.
1116
01:06:45,924 --> 01:06:48,761
- So he calls back.
1117
01:06:48,804 --> 01:06:50,723
- Kemper tells them
that he killed his mother.
1118
01:06:50,767 --> 01:06:53,167
He is the Co-ed Killer.
1119
01:06:53,211 --> 01:06:55,524
He was the one responsible
for these crimes.
1120
01:07:02,373 --> 01:07:04,249
- He told the lieutenant
to get a hold of me
1121
01:07:04,292 --> 01:07:06,256
because I knew
exactly where he lived.
1122
01:07:06,299 --> 01:07:09,397
We had no idea.
Totally amazing.
1123
01:07:09,440 --> 01:07:10,924
- He thought
they were on to him.
1124
01:07:12,015 --> 01:07:15,462
The fact is,
they had no idea who it was.
1125
01:07:15,506 --> 01:07:17,425
It was a shock to everybody.
1126
01:07:18,996 --> 01:07:20,479
- They were keeping him
on the phone
1127
01:07:21,615 --> 01:07:23,708
until the police came
1128
01:07:24,538 --> 01:07:26,369
and then put him under arrest.
1129
01:07:27,636 --> 01:07:29,772
- Why did you wind up
giving yourself up?
1130
01:07:29,817 --> 01:07:31,562
- Once my mother was dead,
there was almost
1131
01:07:31,606 --> 01:07:33,569
a cathartic process
at that point.
1132
01:07:33,612 --> 01:07:35,706
I got physically ill right then
1133
01:07:35,750 --> 01:07:38,455
when she died,
when I murdered her,
1134
01:07:38,499 --> 01:07:41,553
and once she was dead, there
was no way I could back out.
1135
01:07:41,597 --> 01:07:45,087
I had backed down from
giving up a thousand times.
1136
01:07:45,131 --> 01:07:47,836
- He turned himself in right
after he killed his mother
1137
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:49,886
because he then
solved his problem.
1138
01:07:49,929 --> 01:07:52,024
He didn't have to kill
symbolically anymore.
1139
01:07:52,068 --> 01:07:53,508
He killed his mother.
1140
01:07:55,733 --> 01:07:58,744
- The root of his problems
goes back to mom.
1141
01:08:00,184 --> 01:08:02,844
Killing was
a displacement of anger.
1142
01:08:03,936 --> 01:08:07,121
Once she's out,
out of the picture, it's over.
1143
01:08:07,164 --> 01:08:10,699
The Santa Cruz police come out
and take him back.
1144
01:08:10,742 --> 01:08:12,923
- Kemper is being brought
back here to Santa Cruz
1145
01:08:12,968 --> 01:08:15,104
from Pueblo, Colorado,
by car,
1146
01:08:15,148 --> 01:08:18,508
a rather unusual method of
transportation in such cases,
1147
01:08:18,551 --> 01:08:21,170
a method chosen for security
purposes, authorities say.
1148
01:08:26,973 --> 01:08:29,197
- I spent a lot of time
with Ed.
1149
01:08:29,240 --> 01:08:30,943
I actually sat
in the back seat
1150
01:08:30,986 --> 01:08:33,037
with him for 3 1/2 days.
1151
01:08:34,258 --> 01:08:37,007
And he never stopped talking.
1152
01:08:37,052 --> 01:08:40,586
It got to the point
where I would think to myself,
1153
01:08:40,629 --> 01:08:42,068
"God, will you just shut up?
1154
01:08:42,111 --> 01:08:44,730
You know, it's getting
to be too much."
1155
01:08:46,999 --> 01:08:48,832
If we had to make a stop
to get some gas,
1156
01:08:48,875 --> 01:08:51,100
use the restroom
or whatever...
1157
01:08:51,143 --> 01:08:53,151
He was wearing
this leather jacket
1158
01:08:53,195 --> 01:08:55,725
with all of the frills
hanging off them.
1159
01:08:55,769 --> 01:08:57,644
He had his hands
chained to him,
1160
01:08:57,687 --> 01:08:59,390
and he would get out of the car
and just kind of
1161
01:08:59,433 --> 01:09:01,091
strut around,
so everybody could see him,
1162
01:09:01,135 --> 01:09:02,968
'cause everywhere we went,
it drew a crowd.
1163
01:09:05,805 --> 01:09:07,156
He loved the notoriety.
1164
01:09:10,122 --> 01:09:12,261
When we finally
got back to Santa Cruz...
1165
01:09:13,395 --> 01:09:15,098
he wanted to know
if there was a lot of press
1166
01:09:15,141 --> 01:09:16,843
in front of the building,
which there was,
1167
01:09:16,886 --> 01:09:19,286
obviously, but we had gone
around the back
1168
01:09:19,329 --> 01:09:21,379
and took him upstairs
and booked him.
1169
01:09:40,140 --> 01:09:43,937
- The interesting thing about
his whole booking process is,
1170
01:09:43,980 --> 01:09:47,383
there's a sheet, and it has
all of his information,
1171
01:09:47,426 --> 01:09:49,390
what he's charged with
and everything.
1172
01:09:51,179 --> 01:09:53,535
And when it gets down
to the section of who to notify
1173
01:09:53,579 --> 01:09:56,938
in case of emergency,
he turned to me, and he says,
1174
01:09:56,982 --> 01:09:59,250
"I don't have anybody left.
Can I put you down?"
1175
01:10:01,040 --> 01:10:03,613
So that's why my name
is on his booking sheet.
1176
01:10:06,318 --> 01:10:08,021
- Kemper was arraigned
this afternoon
1177
01:10:08,064 --> 01:10:09,504
on charges of killing
six young women,
1178
01:10:09,548 --> 01:10:11,424
his mother,
and a friend of hers.
1179
01:10:11,468 --> 01:10:14,304
- By the time he got
to Santa Cruz,
1180
01:10:14,347 --> 01:10:18,230
the newspapers were
full of some of the details.
1181
01:10:18,274 --> 01:10:20,455
I--I was horrified.
1182
01:10:20,500 --> 01:10:24,078
This sleepy little town
along the coastline just
1183
01:10:24,121 --> 01:10:26,562
never really recovered.
1184
01:10:37,341 --> 01:10:40,133
- I'll tell you a little bit
about my interaction
1185
01:10:40,176 --> 01:10:44,016
with Eddie, with Ed Kemper.
1186
01:10:44,059 --> 01:10:46,503
One day I had
a really stiff neck.
1187
01:10:46,546 --> 01:10:49,207
I couldn't move my head
hardly at all.
1188
01:10:50,037 --> 01:10:52,217
He said,
"I know a lot about anatomy.
1189
01:10:52,261 --> 01:10:54,269
I can make your neck
feel better."
1190
01:10:55,185 --> 01:10:57,367
So I went around,
1191
01:10:57,410 --> 01:10:59,810
and he worked on my neck
for maybe, I don't know,
1192
01:10:59,854 --> 01:11:04,216
five minutes,
and, you know, it worked.
1193
01:11:07,750 --> 01:11:11,284
Thinking about it,
here's this huge man
1194
01:11:11,329 --> 01:11:15,386
who could've probably
killed me with one hand,
1195
01:11:15,430 --> 01:11:20,447
and I never, ever felt
unsafe in his presence.
1196
01:11:20,490 --> 01:11:23,239
I felt that if somebody
had've attacked me,
1197
01:11:23,284 --> 01:11:25,290
he would've come to my aid.
1198
01:11:26,382 --> 01:11:28,388
I spent a lot of time
with him.
1199
01:11:28,431 --> 01:11:29,828
We were friendly.
1200
01:11:31,398 --> 01:11:35,150
- The ability of Ed Kemper
to be able to
1201
01:11:35,194 --> 01:11:37,681
be very charming
was really remarkable.
1202
01:11:37,724 --> 01:11:41,564
That's how clever
or manipulative he is.
1203
01:11:41,608 --> 01:11:45,229
- He was a model prisoner,
and he was a nice guy.
1204
01:11:45,272 --> 01:11:47,759
He wasn't crazy.
He wasn't, uh,
1205
01:11:47,803 --> 01:11:50,202
he wasn't
particularly violent.
1206
01:11:50,247 --> 01:11:53,563
He would joke with the jailers.
The jailers liked him.
1207
01:11:55,962 --> 01:11:59,452
- He was this big,
overgrown kid
1208
01:11:59,496 --> 01:12:03,598
that was very friendly,
very cooperative,
1209
01:12:03,641 --> 01:12:05,431
loved the police...
1210
01:12:06,477 --> 01:12:10,490
and would tell you anything
you wanted to know.
1211
01:12:16,599 --> 01:12:18,564
- He took us to these
various places
1212
01:12:18,607 --> 01:12:20,876
throughout the mountains
in Santa Cruz County.
1213
01:12:20,920 --> 01:12:22,881
- Where he showed them
all the places
1214
01:12:22,925 --> 01:12:24,671
he dropped off body parts.
1215
01:12:33,048 --> 01:12:34,707
- We were missing
some body parts,
1216
01:12:34,750 --> 01:12:36,581
and those were important
for the families,
1217
01:12:36,625 --> 01:12:38,850
so what we would do is, we
would drive him
1218
01:12:38,895 --> 01:12:40,159
to those locations,
and he would
1219
01:12:40,203 --> 01:12:41,818
point it out to us
1220
01:12:41,861 --> 01:12:44,567
just very matter-of-factly.
1221
01:12:44,611 --> 01:12:47,011
There's so-and-so.
There's so-and-so.
1222
01:12:48,580 --> 01:12:52,682
One of his victims, he had
actually skinned the skull
1223
01:12:52,725 --> 01:12:54,994
and put it underground.
1224
01:12:57,133 --> 01:13:00,056
- The day they dug up
Cindy Schall's head
1225
01:13:00,100 --> 01:13:02,629
was a day I'll never forget.
1226
01:13:02,672 --> 01:13:05,902
The thing I remember
about it is them lifting this
1227
01:13:05,945 --> 01:13:09,479
rotted head
up out of the ground
1228
01:13:09,523 --> 01:13:11,138
and the reality of it
all of a sudden
1229
01:13:11,182 --> 01:13:13,625
became all too true,
but what the worst part was,
1230
01:13:13,669 --> 01:13:14,976
was the smell.
1231
01:13:15,020 --> 01:13:19,777
The smell just stuck with me.
1232
01:13:37,447 --> 01:13:40,239
- And so when he finally had
to go to trial,
1233
01:13:40,283 --> 01:13:42,420
his defense will be
the insanity defense.
1234
01:13:42,464 --> 01:13:45,693
- When a person admits
to everything they've done
1235
01:13:45,737 --> 01:13:47,830
to everybody who'll listen,
1236
01:13:47,875 --> 01:13:51,670
you know,
the only possible defense
1237
01:13:51,713 --> 01:13:55,510
we had was not guilty
by reason of insanity.
1238
01:13:55,553 --> 01:13:58,869
- What a lawyer hopes for
in a case like Kemper
1239
01:13:58,914 --> 01:14:00,789
is that the jury
will look at this and say,
1240
01:14:00,833 --> 01:14:04,497
"This is so ridiculous.
This is just so bizarre.
1241
01:14:04,541 --> 01:14:07,377
He has to be completely
out of his mind."
1242
01:14:07,420 --> 01:14:09,733
It has to be to such an extent
1243
01:14:09,776 --> 01:14:11,828
that you didn't know
the nature and quality
1244
01:14:11,872 --> 01:14:13,660
of your acts, you didn't know
what you were doing.
1245
01:14:13,703 --> 01:14:15,449
Well, that wouldn't apply
in Kemper's case.
1246
01:14:15,493 --> 01:14:17,368
He knew exactly
what he was doing.
1247
01:14:17,412 --> 01:14:20,291
- He felt the need to take
the stand
1248
01:14:20,335 --> 01:14:23,695
to show everyone
how crazy he really was.
1249
01:14:23,738 --> 01:14:25,658
He went through
all the graphics
1250
01:14:25,702 --> 01:14:27,447
of how he did the killings.
1251
01:14:28,494 --> 01:14:30,675
- And when
he was testifying...
1252
01:14:32,334 --> 01:14:34,995
you found yourself
1253
01:14:35,039 --> 01:14:37,307
wrapped up in his words.
1254
01:14:37,350 --> 01:14:39,969
He wanted you
to feel sorry for him,
1255
01:14:40,013 --> 01:14:43,023
and he was describing what he
had done to these young girls.
1256
01:14:43,067 --> 01:14:46,426
I looked over my shoulder,
and I saw the father
1257
01:14:46,469 --> 01:14:49,044
of one of the victims,
1258
01:14:49,088 --> 01:14:52,665
and the look on his face
1259
01:14:52,709 --> 01:14:54,630
was so affecting
1260
01:14:54,673 --> 01:14:56,811
that I started crying in court,
1261
01:14:56,854 --> 01:14:59,646
and I couldn't stop crying.
1262
01:15:02,700 --> 01:15:05,406
He was convicted
and sentenced to life.
1263
01:15:19,847 --> 01:15:21,462
- The things I learned
from Kemper
1264
01:15:21,505 --> 01:15:23,207
we apply to other cases.
1265
01:15:23,250 --> 01:15:25,824
He taught us how we should
link these cases together,
1266
01:15:25,867 --> 01:15:27,744
how to classify
different crimes,
1267
01:15:27,788 --> 01:15:29,838
and how to profile
for a serial killer.
1268
01:15:29,881 --> 01:15:31,889
They bring him in,
and we stand up to greet him,
1269
01:15:31,933 --> 01:15:34,812
and my goodness,
the guy is--he's mammoth.
1270
01:15:34,857 --> 01:15:36,733
He just towers over us.
1271
01:15:36,777 --> 01:15:38,608
Before I even start
talking to him, I told him,
1272
01:15:38,651 --> 01:15:41,052
"You're a big case back
at the FBI academy.
1273
01:15:41,095 --> 01:15:43,059
"Everyone wants to learn
from you.
1274
01:15:43,102 --> 01:15:46,768
We want to take your knowledge
and apply it to ongoing cases."
1275
01:15:47,945 --> 01:15:50,302
So I made him feel like
he is my professor.
1276
01:15:50,346 --> 01:15:51,566
Teach me.
1277
01:15:54,795 --> 01:15:58,111
- Bob Ressler and John Douglas
were top drawer, absolutely.
1278
01:15:58,154 --> 01:16:00,293
They were very dedicated.
1279
01:16:00,337 --> 01:16:04,219
They were excellent in terms
of getting information.
1280
01:16:04,263 --> 01:16:06,182
They were expert interviewers.
1281
01:16:12,073 --> 01:16:14,386
- I want to know why, Ed.
I want to know what
1282
01:16:14,429 --> 01:16:17,745
transformed you into
participating and precipitating
1283
01:16:17,788 --> 01:16:19,708
these particular crimes.
1284
01:16:21,846 --> 01:16:24,725
- Ed Kemper was very helpful
because he was so articulate,
1285
01:16:24,769 --> 01:16:27,955
and he really gave
important information
1286
01:16:27,998 --> 01:16:32,273
that we were able to use
for the basis for profiling.
1287
01:16:33,146 --> 01:16:35,416
- He's an insightful guy.
He knows the criminal mind,
1288
01:16:35,460 --> 01:16:37,073
obviously, on some level
1289
01:16:37,116 --> 01:16:39,124
because he knows
himself awfully well.
1290
01:17:00,546 --> 01:17:02,510
- These guys, they go off
in a trance like that,
1291
01:17:02,554 --> 01:17:05,346
and then they're back there,
and they start
1292
01:17:05,389 --> 01:17:08,008
providing specifics that--
1293
01:17:08,051 --> 01:17:10,930
I mean, I can't remember
what things I did yesterday,
1294
01:17:10,974 --> 01:17:14,421
and they're remembering all
these specifics of the crimes
1295
01:17:14,465 --> 01:17:18,086
and the colors of the victim's
clothing and their hair
1296
01:17:18,130 --> 01:17:19,875
and maybe a pendant
they were wearing,
1297
01:17:19,918 --> 01:17:22,448
so that was one of the things
that happened
1298
01:17:22,492 --> 01:17:24,500
during the interview
with Kemper.
1299
01:17:24,544 --> 01:17:27,116
That's the whole thing when you
do a profiling and analysis.
1300
01:17:27,161 --> 01:17:30,214
You can't think like me.
I got to think like them.
1301
01:17:31,176 --> 01:17:32,572
- You want to get
the information,
1302
01:17:32,615 --> 01:17:34,230
so that maybe
you can prevent
1303
01:17:34,274 --> 01:17:35,974
somebody from getting hurt
in the future.
1304
01:17:50,809 --> 01:17:53,207
- After the first interviews,
1305
01:17:53,252 --> 01:17:54,692
we realized that
if we're going to have
1306
01:17:54,736 --> 01:17:58,139
a good mythological handle
on this,
1307
01:17:58,183 --> 01:18:02,196
we had to have
a survey questionnaire
1308
01:18:02,239 --> 01:18:04,203
that they all ask
the same questions
1309
01:18:04,246 --> 01:18:06,297
to other killers.
1310
01:18:06,340 --> 01:18:10,312
We came up with a 57-page
color-coded survey,
1311
01:18:10,355 --> 01:18:13,497
and we had 36 killers
in the study.
1312
01:18:13,540 --> 01:18:15,416
- And we came up with very,
very good predictors.
1313
01:18:15,459 --> 01:18:17,729
It's a thing known
as the homicidal triangle.
1314
01:18:18,907 --> 01:18:20,521
That is bed-wetting
1315
01:18:20,564 --> 01:18:21,786
into the teens,
1316
01:18:21,830 --> 01:18:22,834
fire setting,
1317
01:18:22,878 --> 01:18:24,099
but the big one
1318
01:18:24,142 --> 01:18:26,630
is animal cruelty.
1319
01:18:26,673 --> 01:18:29,640
I've talked to SPCAs
about that,
1320
01:18:29,683 --> 01:18:32,344
and now the FBI
even has that today.
1321
01:18:32,388 --> 01:18:34,177
Animal cruelty,
they track that,
1322
01:18:34,221 --> 01:18:35,836
where we never tracked
that before,
1323
01:18:35,880 --> 01:18:38,933
because we know that's
a predictor of future violence.
1324
01:18:38,977 --> 01:18:41,681
- The FBI back in
the late 1970s,
1325
01:18:41,724 --> 01:18:43,907
including John Douglas
and Robert Ressler,
1326
01:18:43,950 --> 01:18:46,176
made major contributions
1327
01:18:46,219 --> 01:18:49,929
in applying the knowledge
base of sexual murder,
1328
01:18:49,972 --> 01:18:52,415
particularly to investigations.
1329
01:18:54,945 --> 01:18:58,655
- We came up with
the term serial murderer.
1330
01:18:58,698 --> 01:19:00,661
A serial murderer
is three or more people
1331
01:19:00,704 --> 01:19:01,927
with a cooling off period
1332
01:19:01,971 --> 01:19:03,628
in between
each of the killings.
1333
01:19:04,544 --> 01:19:06,812
A mass murderer
is someone who kills
1334
01:19:06,856 --> 01:19:09,605
four or more people
in one event.
1335
01:19:09,648 --> 01:19:11,525
A spree murderer,
1336
01:19:11,568 --> 01:19:13,009
it's a form
of a serial killer,
1337
01:19:13,052 --> 01:19:15,365
but there is
no cooling off period.
1338
01:19:15,408 --> 01:19:19,510
- Today you can't find a person
in the United States
1339
01:19:19,554 --> 01:19:21,822
who doesn't know
what a serial killer is.
1340
01:19:21,865 --> 01:19:25,487
You hear it all the time,
and you really have to credit
1341
01:19:25,530 --> 01:19:28,847
John Douglas and Ressler
for popularizing that
1342
01:19:28,890 --> 01:19:30,853
and making it part
of the consciousness
1343
01:19:30,896 --> 01:19:33,689
in the culture
of the United States.
1344
01:19:33,732 --> 01:19:35,652
- Then we came up
with descriptions
1345
01:19:35,696 --> 01:19:38,576
regarding the different types
of offenders
1346
01:19:38,620 --> 01:19:40,714
when we classify a case,
1347
01:19:40,757 --> 01:19:42,415
and we came up
with major categories
1348
01:19:42,460 --> 01:19:45,645
of criminal enterprise,
group cause,
1349
01:19:45,688 --> 01:19:49,047
sexual homicide,
and personal cause.
1350
01:19:49,091 --> 01:19:51,055
When we look at a case,
we try to put them
1351
01:19:51,098 --> 01:19:52,886
in one of these
four categories.
1352
01:19:54,109 --> 01:19:56,813
Then as far as describing
the crime scenes,
1353
01:19:56,857 --> 01:19:58,690
when we look at a case
like Kemper,
1354
01:19:58,733 --> 01:20:01,439
Kemper, it's obvious
it's very, very organized.
1355
01:20:01,482 --> 01:20:02,834
There's planning involved.
1356
01:20:04,012 --> 01:20:06,063
- The profiling cases
would come in,
1357
01:20:06,107 --> 01:20:09,641
and they would say,
"Is this like Kemper?"
1358
01:20:09,684 --> 01:20:11,736
They would be able
to actually--is he organized?
1359
01:20:11,779 --> 01:20:14,178
Does he plan? Is there
something new or different?
1360
01:20:14,222 --> 01:20:17,974
So they bounced off of these
new cases,
1361
01:20:18,018 --> 01:20:21,683
unsolved cases,
and were able to say,
1362
01:20:21,726 --> 01:20:23,734
"Why don't you look
for a suspect
1363
01:20:23,778 --> 01:20:26,744
that has
A, B, C, D, these factors."
1364
01:20:27,834 --> 01:20:30,103
- Look, for example,
at the case of Ted Bundy.
1365
01:20:30,147 --> 01:20:33,245
The connection between somebody
like Kemper and Ted Bundy
1366
01:20:33,290 --> 01:20:36,562
is that the reason
they're killing is sexual.
1367
01:20:36,605 --> 01:20:39,614
It's an abnormal
sexual arousal pattern.
1368
01:20:40,662 --> 01:20:42,886
- I found it with Kemper,
and I found it with the likes
1369
01:20:42,931 --> 01:20:44,981
of Dennis Rader,
the BTK Strangler,
1370
01:20:45,025 --> 01:20:47,076
Jeffrey Dahmer,
David Berkowitz,
1371
01:20:47,120 --> 01:20:49,782
the Son of Sam.
There was no empathy.
1372
01:20:49,825 --> 01:20:53,708
There was never any remorse
for the crimes at all.
1373
01:20:53,751 --> 01:20:55,714
The only time we touched
on the mother.
1374
01:20:55,757 --> 01:20:57,023
It seemed to be always
a mother thing
1375
01:20:57,067 --> 01:20:59,030
with these guys,
always a mother thing.
1376
01:21:02,215 --> 01:21:05,924
- Your grandmother and her
daughter-in-law, your mother,
1377
01:21:05,967 --> 01:21:09,371
were two women very important
in your life,
1378
01:21:09,415 --> 01:21:11,378
and you killed them both.
1379
01:21:11,422 --> 01:21:14,389
Could you say
what they were like
1380
01:21:14,433 --> 01:21:18,140
that led them to the same fate?
1381
01:21:18,183 --> 01:21:20,496
- The same thing that kept them
from ever being friends.
1382
01:21:20,540 --> 01:21:23,071
They were both aggressive,
1383
01:21:23,114 --> 01:21:24,510
um,
1384
01:21:24,555 --> 01:21:26,125
matriarchal women.
1385
01:21:26,169 --> 01:21:27,827
They'd been the daughters
1386
01:21:27,870 --> 01:21:29,398
of strong, matriarchal women.
1387
01:21:33,499 --> 01:21:35,898
- They love the mother.
They want the mother's love.
1388
01:21:35,942 --> 01:21:38,822
But at the same time, you know,
they hate the mother.
1389
01:21:38,866 --> 01:21:41,003
They hate her, so then
when you get them to talk,
1390
01:21:41,047 --> 01:21:42,880
you get them to talk,
and you reach that point
1391
01:21:42,923 --> 01:21:44,580
about mothers,
1392
01:21:44,624 --> 01:21:47,503
and you got them back
at that crime.
1393
01:21:47,548 --> 01:21:49,817
That's when you'll see them,
you know, breaking down.
1394
01:21:49,860 --> 01:21:51,606
Some of the most
hardened criminals
1395
01:21:51,650 --> 01:21:54,397
I've talked to,
it happened to them.
1396
01:21:56,230 --> 01:22:00,069
Gary Heidnik in Philadelphia,
who kept women in a pit
1397
01:22:00,113 --> 01:22:02,295
and I interviewed him
with another agent,
1398
01:22:02,338 --> 01:22:05,044
and when I got to the mother,
you know,
1399
01:22:05,087 --> 01:22:08,316
he just ripped off the mic
and just, you know--you know,
1400
01:22:08,360 --> 01:22:10,584
he just broke down.
He loved the mother,
1401
01:22:10,628 --> 01:22:13,463
but he hated her
at the same time
1402
01:22:13,507 --> 01:22:17,128
and projected his problems
on his mother, like Kemper.
1403
01:22:18,177 --> 01:22:20,096
- There's no question
that he hated his mother,
1404
01:22:20,139 --> 01:22:23,106
but that's not why
he went out killing women.
1405
01:22:23,716 --> 01:22:26,117
Thousands of people have
horrible relationships
1406
01:22:26,160 --> 01:22:27,513
with their mothers.
1407
01:22:27,557 --> 01:22:29,695
Thousands and thousands
of people
1408
01:22:29,738 --> 01:22:34,626
grow up in horrific conditions
where one parent or another
1409
01:22:34,669 --> 01:22:38,115
not only belittles
or humiliates the person
1410
01:22:38,159 --> 01:22:41,257
but abuses the person
and burns the person,
1411
01:22:41,300 --> 01:22:43,264
but they're not going around
killing people
1412
01:22:43,307 --> 01:22:45,576
because they're symbolically
killing their mother.
1413
01:22:45,620 --> 01:22:47,279
I just don't believe that.
1414
01:22:47,322 --> 01:22:49,764
If Kemper explains
why he did what he did,
1415
01:22:49,807 --> 01:22:51,596
you should take it
at face value.
1416
01:22:51,640 --> 01:22:54,084
Murderers, in general,
lie all the time.
1417
01:22:54,128 --> 01:22:56,615
It was his relationship
with his mother that did this.
1418
01:22:56,659 --> 01:23:00,280
He was abused by this person.
It may just not be true.
1419
01:23:06,344 --> 01:23:07,915
- Six young women dead.
1420
01:23:07,958 --> 01:23:09,879
There's a lot that leads
into that happening,
1421
01:23:09,923 --> 01:23:11,711
but that is what happened.
1422
01:23:11,755 --> 01:23:13,674
They represented
not what my mother was
1423
01:23:13,718 --> 01:23:16,117
but what she liked,
what she coveted,
1424
01:23:16,160 --> 01:23:19,302
what was important to her,
and I was destroying it.
1425
01:23:19,345 --> 01:23:21,790
- People think
he's a manipulator
1426
01:23:21,833 --> 01:23:23,404
and a psychopath.
1427
01:23:23,447 --> 01:23:24,975
That's true.
1428
01:23:25,018 --> 01:23:26,982
As far as, like,
the mother part,
1429
01:23:27,026 --> 01:23:28,857
where they don't believe that,
I disagree with them.
1430
01:23:28,901 --> 01:23:30,384
The mother had a major impact.
1431
01:23:30,428 --> 01:23:32,479
The reason he decided now
was the time
1432
01:23:32,523 --> 01:23:35,053
to kill them
because of the mother.
1433
01:23:35,097 --> 01:23:37,889
I don't forgive Kemper,
but mom is the influence.
1434
01:23:37,933 --> 01:23:39,286
If mom wasn't there,
1435
01:23:39,329 --> 01:23:42,033
he wouldn't
have been a serial killer.
1436
01:23:42,077 --> 01:23:44,258
- I was suicidal,
1437
01:23:44,303 --> 01:23:48,317
uh, very disturbed,
grasping out at someone.
1438
01:23:48,360 --> 01:23:50,237
I had abducted them,
and I wasn't going to
1439
01:23:50,280 --> 01:23:52,070
let them out of the car
because I was tired
1440
01:23:52,113 --> 01:23:53,944
of people walking away from me.
1441
01:23:53,988 --> 01:23:56,388
- Ed Kemper's murder
of his mother
1442
01:23:56,432 --> 01:23:58,920
is done at the end
of his killing career.
1443
01:23:58,963 --> 01:24:02,061
It's important to look at
what he does with his victims,
1444
01:24:02,105 --> 01:24:03,413
the co-ed victims.
1445
01:24:04,896 --> 01:24:06,511
- And where it might
not be realistic
1446
01:24:06,555 --> 01:24:10,175
to someone who has decided
I'm just incarnate evil,
1447
01:24:10,219 --> 01:24:12,837
there's not much else I can say
other than I did surrender.
1448
01:24:12,880 --> 01:24:14,538
I did make it stop.
1449
01:24:14,582 --> 01:24:16,371
I didn't kill my mother
in a rage.
1450
01:24:16,415 --> 01:24:19,033
I didn't attack her
out of some argument.
1451
01:24:19,077 --> 01:24:21,170
I went out of my way
to find her and to kill her,
1452
01:24:21,213 --> 01:24:24,967
to make sure that
whatever cover I had was blown.
1453
01:24:25,011 --> 01:24:26,973
There was no way I could
explain my way out of it.
1454
01:24:27,017 --> 01:24:29,199
I started pursuing ways
out of what I was doing
1455
01:24:29,242 --> 01:24:31,643
because it was getting
totally out of hand.
1456
01:24:31,686 --> 01:24:33,387
- He said,
"I had schoolteachers
1457
01:24:33,430 --> 01:24:35,350
"and counselors talking
to me, but he never
1458
01:24:35,394 --> 01:24:37,008
"really talked to me
about my feelings
1459
01:24:37,052 --> 01:24:39,015
"and what was going
through my mind.
1460
01:24:39,059 --> 01:24:40,542
Had they done that," he said,
1461
01:24:40,586 --> 01:24:42,724
"I would've talked to them
about this."
1462
01:24:42,768 --> 01:24:44,601
If a counselor talked
to him, he may
1463
01:24:44,644 --> 01:24:47,130
or she may get
something out of him.
1464
01:24:47,174 --> 01:24:50,489
- If you'd never given in
to the impulse to murder--
1465
01:24:50,533 --> 01:24:52,148
- Where might I be?
1466
01:24:52,192 --> 01:24:54,636
If my parole
had been successful...
1467
01:24:54,679 --> 01:24:56,249
Um,
1468
01:24:56,293 --> 01:24:58,693
I believe I'd be married
and have children.
1469
01:24:58,737 --> 01:25:01,528
I'd be heading toward
my first grandchildren.
1470
01:25:02,532 --> 01:25:04,496
- This story just never
goes away,
1471
01:25:04,539 --> 01:25:06,720
and people are fascinated
by it,
1472
01:25:06,764 --> 01:25:09,076
how horrid it all was.
1473
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:12,217
- When I get back to the motel
after doing his interview,
1474
01:25:12,262 --> 01:25:14,531
I had problems. I had problems
1475
01:25:14,574 --> 01:25:17,367
that would then
begin to carry over
1476
01:25:17,410 --> 01:25:20,115
where I had flashbacks
of those crime scenes.
1477
01:25:22,776 --> 01:25:24,741
- I've been involved in
I couldn't tell you
1478
01:25:24,784 --> 01:25:27,096
how many investigations
where people have died,
1479
01:25:27,139 --> 01:25:31,197
and this, to me,
has no sense whatsoever.
1480
01:25:31,241 --> 01:25:33,772
I still have issues
that come up occasionally.
1481
01:25:37,175 --> 01:25:40,490
- It really, really bothers me.
It does have an effect on me.
1482
01:25:40,534 --> 01:25:43,894
- If I could change, um,
1483
01:25:43,937 --> 01:25:45,857
things in my life,
1484
01:25:45,901 --> 01:25:50,220
I would definitely not have
1485
01:25:50,264 --> 01:25:53,406
participated
in these mass murders.
1486
01:25:53,449 --> 01:25:55,674
I had a wife
and two little kids.
1487
01:25:55,717 --> 01:25:57,724
I worked 13 months
without a day off.
1488
01:25:57,768 --> 01:26:02,437
Within five years after
these trials were completed,
1489
01:26:02,481 --> 01:26:04,356
the district attorney
was divorced.
1490
01:26:04,399 --> 01:26:05,664
I was divorced.
1491
01:26:05,708 --> 01:26:06,887
Several of the police officers
1492
01:26:06,930 --> 01:26:08,414
involved were divorced.
1493
01:26:08,458 --> 01:26:09,985
It took a horrible toll
1494
01:26:10,028 --> 01:26:11,512
on us individually
1495
01:26:11,556 --> 01:26:12,996
and on our families.
1496
01:26:13,039 --> 01:26:16,530
You know, it was difficult,
a difficult time,
1497
01:26:16,574 --> 01:26:18,842
and it's always a part of you.
1498
01:26:20,761 --> 01:26:22,856
- This was such a hideous evil
1499
01:26:22,899 --> 01:26:25,343
that Kemper perpetrated
on these people.
1500
01:26:25,387 --> 01:26:27,786
The lesson of Edmund Kemper
is, the human animal
1501
01:26:27,829 --> 01:26:30,316
is capable
of just about everything,
1502
01:26:30,359 --> 01:26:32,672
and we can't be surprised
by what happens.
1503
01:26:32,717 --> 01:26:35,727
I'm sorry it happened.
It was horrible what happened.
1504
01:26:35,770 --> 01:26:38,564
I think of the lives
that were not lived
1505
01:26:38,607 --> 01:26:42,970
that--who knows what these
victims would've turned into,
1506
01:26:43,014 --> 01:26:45,500
and I think that's
the tragedy of it all.
1507
01:26:46,634 --> 01:26:48,990
- If there's somebody out there
that is watching this
1508
01:26:49,034 --> 01:26:52,394
and hasn't done that,
hasn't killed people
1509
01:26:52,437 --> 01:26:55,885
and wants to and rages inside
and struggles for that feeling
1510
01:26:55,928 --> 01:26:58,808
or is so sure they have it
under control,
1511
01:26:58,851 --> 01:27:00,944
they need to talk
to somebody about it.
1512
01:27:00,988 --> 01:27:04,130
Trust somebody enough
to sit down
1513
01:27:04,174 --> 01:27:06,617
and talk about something
that isn't a crime.
1514
01:27:06,661 --> 01:27:09,671
Thinking that way
isn't a crime.
1515
01:27:09,714 --> 01:27:12,027
Doing it isn't just a crime.
1516
01:27:12,071 --> 01:27:15,780
It's a horrible thing
that doesn't know when to quit.
1517
01:27:15,823 --> 01:27:18,005
It can't be stopped easily.
119181
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