All language subtitles for MasterClass Danny Elfman Teaches Music For Film - 19.Crossing the Line

[INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC PLAYING]

This is a subject that
we don't talk about a lot.

And I'm calling it
crossing the line.

And crossing the
line means where

the line is between homage,
inspiration, and plagiarism.

And you may think it's
simple, but it's not.

I was just talking with
the composer, John Powell,

yesterday about one of
his scores and, like,

how I thought it was just
so incredibly effective.

And he says, well,
of course, you know,

you know that kind of came
from a Schubert symphony.

I go, no, it didn't.

In your mind, it
came from Schubert.

But I know what
you're talking about.

And it's not that.

It was inspired by that.

That gave you a feel.

It gave you a thought.

And you turned it into
something absolutely yours.

And it's something that I've
heard imitated about 20,

30 times since you did that.

And that piece was
for "Bourne Identity."

So there is a case
where it's inspiration.

But there's a much bigger
issue with crossing the line.

And here's where I learned it.

Context is everything.

I was doing my first film,
"Pee-wee's Big Adventure."

Pee-wee walks out with a
cowboy hat, Western suit,

and a pair of guns.

And I go, doodle ooh, with
an ocarina kind of a sound.

And Danny Gold, who was
the head of the music

department at that time and
all the library and everything.

He took me aside.

He goes, you can't do that.

I go, oh, no, isn't
there this rule

that if you don't use more
than a certain number of notes

from something,
because there was

this common school of
thought that you're

allowed to use one
bar or two bars

or five notes or eight
notes from something else

and then go somewhere else
after those number of notes.

And you're okay.

It's not plagiarism.

He goes, doesn't exist.

It's a absolute
nonexistent thing--

got a lot of people
seem to think exists.

It's all about context.

If you were doing a
scene and explains it

to me in detail where
Pee-wee opens a door.

And there's some
clowns in there.

And you use as a sound-- do,
doo, loo, because I was said,

I'm not doing, doo, doo, doo.

That's Morricone.

And he goes, no.

It's like, in a different
kind of scene, you can go,

doodle do, do, do, do, with
an ocarina, and it's fine.

But as soon as you see
guns on a cowboy hat,

you can't even play
the fucking ocarina.

He says he owns it.

That's it, period.

It's the context.

If you're trying to invoke
a sound of another composer

over an image that is in
the vein of what they're

conveying in the first
place, don't do it.

You've lost the battle.

Now, let me start out by saying
that when you get to plagiarism

problems, it totally
depends on the composer

and if it goes to trial.

And I've been down that road.

It's hard, because if it goes
ever in front of, like, a jury

of people deciding,
no matter what it is,

it's a 50-50 chance.

I've had more than
a dozen lawsuits

with "Edward Scissorhands"
that goes all over the place--

the commercials, TV shows.

And I try to look at
the context each time.

And I go, sometimes I hear,
all right, that's Edward.

Clearly, they've
changed some chords.

But it's a totally
different context.

I'm going to let it go.

But if there's snow
coming down, and I

start hearing "Edward
Scissorhands,"

I'm going to go after you.

Everything you do, every
simple theme, oh, my god, it

plagues me to no end when
I come up with every--

there's no four-note
or five-note theme

that doesn't remind you of
something or many things.

There's no simple pattern that
hasn't been done somewhere.

It's impossible to be 100%
original with anything.

There's going to be a
million other times where

something you do is going to
sound something like something

somebody else does.

And it's going to be a
very different context.

And it wasn't in the temp.

And you're going to
go, hey, it's okay.

This happens.

I do it.

Other composers do it.

We all do it to
a certain extent.

So I'll hear a little bit
of "Batman" or Edward"

Scissorhands."

But the context of the movie
is completely different.

And I'll know this couldn't
have been in the temp.

This is the harmonic structure
that the composer fell into.

It's very similar.

And I can hear it.

And some other
people will hear it.

But let it go.

It's just a coincidence.

You're always going to
have these things happen.

[INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC]

Pursuit of originality.

When you're starting out, you
want to have your own identity

as a composer.

But inevitably in
most cases, you're

going to be stuck with the
contest of being totally

original or being
totally yourself

and making a
producer or director

happy with what
you know they want,

which is something just
like something else.

And as we're in the days
where being derivative

is actually the thing
that gets you hired,

it's like you've got to
go to I want more jobs.

Or do I want to
establish myself,

because each has an
upside and a downside.

If you put off putting your
own identity and stuff,

and you're starting
to get a career,

and you're starting
to get hired,

you might end up
putting it off forever.

On the other hand, if
you get really stubborn

about your originality,
you're going

to take less projects if
you want to be completely

original in the beginning.

You want to find a project
where you can express yourself.

Now, I was lucky.

My first director
was Tim Burton.

And he allowed me to find
the originality in myself

and express it.

And for that, I'm very grateful.

Now, I have to ask
myself, what if there

was no Tim Burton and somebody
else asked me to do a film,

and it was a just a whole
different kind of film--

a much straighter,
straight and narrow film--

how would I have
dealt with that?

And I don't know the answer.

Definitely, if you're able to,
find something that stands out

as an original thing.

And people notice
that you are going

to find a fast ticket to getting
yourself more work quickly.

Now, getting typecast
into a type of sound

could be a problem
from down the line.

I've literally had a
director tell me, ah,

it's not quite there.

I need you to be
more Danny Elfman.

And I had to interpret that,
because he was telling that

to my face that I'm not
Danny Elfman enough.

Now, clearly, he knew
that I was Danny Elfman.

But I wasn't Danny
Elfman enough for him.

So I have to go, what part of me
is he looking for specifically

that's not delivering enough?

Is it this score or this
score or this score?

But that's a problem
you face down the line.

And believe me, it's a
good problem to face.

You're going to face
a million problems.

That's the best of
the problems you're

going to face is that
you've come so identified

with certain sounds that
you yourself have trouble

delivering it well enough,
because others have actually

gotten as good or better than
you at delivering whatever it

is that you brought
to gave birth to

and brought into the world.

I tend to twist things around.

And things were a little clunky.

And that's part of my style.

There's an awkwardness
to the way I write.

Frequently that's part of me.

And I've never tried to correct
it because I think it's okay.

Bernard Herrmann frequently
in certain scores

had kind of a weird
awkwardness as did Morricone

as did many composers
that I love.

So I don't think
certain types of flaws

are okay to not smooth out
the edges of your style.

But then I'll hear
other composers

doing it flawlessly and perfect.

And it's like, wow, I don't
want to do that again,

because they're better at
it than I am right now.

But again, if
you're starting out,

I hope you're lucky enough
to have that be your problem.

But you're going to have to face
a lot of other things first.