Original subtitles

Two episodes in, we changed it and

people went, "No, no, that's not the

show. It doesn't really matter what

worked for John Pertzby and Tom Baker.

It it's about now, you know, Benedict

became a star overnight. We watched it

happen in real time and that was forever

ago, you know, but in terms of like

online reaction, it was quite

extraordinary.

[Music]

Hi Mark. Thank you for joining me in the

Radio Times writer room. Um we're gonna

uh discuss obviously your brilliant new

show Bookish, but also go through some

of your your previous shows. Uh get a

bit into your mindset when it comes to

comes to your writing projects. Um so

first off, it would be great to get a

sense of when you were starting out,

obviously you've developed this career

as both an actor and a writer. Did you

have one that was your first love, your

first passion? I suppose

>> it's it's hard to say. I mean, I always

that's always I wanted to do them both

>> and you know very early days at school

obviously I was in school plays and

stuff but I also developed

>> I I won a competition uh in and someone

found it incredibly some in some archive

in Darlington. It was it was a it was

there was a noise abatement campaign and

I wrote this sort of sci-fi story about

it and that was published in a kind of

little thing. And then the the really

extraordinary thing was I was I was in

an advanced reading group with Mrs.

Wigington when I was very young and I I

just always loved reading and and

everything that kind of opened up I

suppose. But when I was in junior three,

so I must have been about nine,

I wrote a thing about Wimbledon

about which I knew absolutely nothing.

It was just like the project of the week

and everyone went bananas about I could

see it. I drew a little picture and it

was just this sort of essay about tennis

and uh everyone went crazy and and and

strangely then they completely backed

me. M there it was just like I was some

sort of my my headmaster Mr. Dixon

called me Merlin. It was my only

nickname I've ever had. And uh it it was

just like a thing. Suddenly I was I was

the I was the boy who wrote things.

>> Uh and they were my teachers from then

on were extremely encouraging and I

suppose that's where that all started.

>> Amazing.

>> And then obviously we first came to know

you for the League of Gentlemen. Really?

Um,

>> that was a year later.

>> I was I was 10.

>> Was was was writing that project

different to anything you've written

since? Obviously, you've come back to

it, but I imagine it must have felt

different being that first thing that

you'd written and it was such sort of

collaborative thing with friends. Has

has anything sort of compared to it

since then? Well, it's a it's a very

interesting way of working, but

obviously because we we we came together

because we'd all grown up with Monty

Python, not the 9:00 news and and all

kinds of comedy influences and sketch

writing really. That's, you know, how it

started. Then when we used to write it

um as a live show, it was a it was a

sort of loose collection of sketches and

we eventually gave a kind of narrative

thread and then that became the series

etc. But the uh as a as a way of

working, I suppose it it never quite

goes away. Uh it was it was always just

such a you know fantastic collaboration

between the four of us and writing with

Jeremy and we Jeremy's just written me a

radio play. Uh so it you know it it

carries on in a lovely way

>> but it is a very different work way of

working and I think come on to this but

the the strange thing writing can be

very lonely very isolated

>> but also collaboration is also has its

own

>> things sometimes literally this when

you're sort of itching to write the

words yourself and you're the one who's

pacing up and down

>> or the other way around you know it's

like and then sometimes I remember the

second series there was some little

thing and

I just couldn't get anyone to understand

what it would look like. Do you know and

it can be and you go I know I know

what's up here.

>> Um so I find I mean I'm sure that's the

same for any collaboration, isn't it?

It's it's just it's a curious mixture of

things. But the the great joy of it is

is sitting in a room and and laughing,

you know, and and coming trying to come

up with something we think is funny. But

just that the sheer joy of that that

creative act, I guess. Does does one of

the two of them mentioning collaboration

there does one of the two of them either

working by yourself or collaborating

does one of them come more naturally to

you do you think obviously you've done

so many collaborations?

>> I don't know. I mean I always I think

it's just good to mix it up, isn't it? I

mean I'm I've been writing most of this

year and I do sort of feel it's a first

world problem. I do feel a bit chained

to my desk. I'm very itchy to go out and

do something and um

I don't know. I don't know. I I just I

look forward to that and I look forward

to new collaborations and everything

that that brings with it. This sort of

different energy and different focus,

you know, that people have. So, it's a

it's a it's a really intriguing way of

working, I think.

>> And obviously, the last time we saw the

league, at least on screen, was uh 2017.

We're coming up to 2027.

>> Any uh any new plans for for more

anniversary specials?

>> No.

>> No. No, you can't see that.

>> I was I wanted I wanted to subtitle our

um uh reunion. We did three specials

2017 and I wanted to subtitle it just

about getting away with it.

I don't know if we would have.

Interestingly, I was speaking with a uh

joke writer recently, obviously a

completely different craft, but I was

amazed by how much of a sort of

technical pursuit she saw it as. It was

it wasn't so much I mean there was

obviously creativity in it but she saw

it as like crafting a puzzle. Do you see

that? Do you see it as a as a creative

pursuit or a technical one when you're

writing writing screenplays?

I think it has to be both. I mean there

particularly if you're talking about

comedy there's something I think

endlessly fascinating and kind of almost

mathematical about why something is

funny and you know uh why things work.

Well, you know, there's that famous bit

in Little Simon's Sunshine Boys about

which letters are funny. And

>> and that's all true. You know, rules of

three.

>> Yeah.

>> B's are funny. K's are funny. S's aren't

funny. It's true. No one knows why. And

and I find that sort of stuff absolutely

fascinating. All sort of the great great

comics and great actors often the same

thing. um

that sort of concentration on on honing

something like why is this working

tonight? It didn't work yesterday. It

might not work tomorrow. I I find that

sort of that technical part it's craft

that's what it is. So

>> that part of it works across the board.

And I think

uh without feeling too contrived and

mathematical about it, you have to

regard it as a craft which you learn and

get hopefully get better at. That's the

plan. And then if we move on to Doctor

Who. Uh

>> oh yeah that.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Um so you wrote uh nine

episodes I believe. Did your approach to

it change over the years?

>> Guess so. I mean initially

it's just obviously the sheer thrill of

it and actually writing you know

interior TARDIS and knowing it's real.

>> It's not real. The T isn't uh it's

actually happening. Uh but I remember

this is a strange thing to say but I

remember at the press launch 20 years

ago in um Newport

standing at the console of the new

TARDIS and just being sort of

overwhelmed with the fact it was

happening but somehow also within you

you're thinking

it's somehow you also imagine you're

going to be inside the curse of Peladon

you know like your version from your 20

years for that.

>> So, what I quickly became aware of was

that it's it's it was a it was a job. It

was my favorite show, but you had to

treat it as a job because

>> all that stuff is the icing on the cake.

>> But the actual process of trying to make

it a modern show for a new audience is

not about nostalgia.

>> And I think that's the great difference.

You have to get right, what why is this

going to work now?

it it doesn't really matter what worked

for John Pertzby and Tom Baker. It it's

about now. So if we're trying to get an

audience now, this show is is the same

but different, you know.

>> So it was to me it was always a

combination of those things. And and I

it's a strange thing because I I've

revived so many things, but I think

nostalgia is a great enemy

>> and we have to all be careful of it.

It's part of the reason we're in the

mess we are. That I think we weaponized

nostalgia. Nothing's as good as it used

to be. And and yet people can't see that

people have always thought that

>> even when it used to be better.

>> Yeah.

>> It's and and there it's it's a dangerous

thing. Weirdly, the first thing I did

for Doctor Who, which was a a novel for

Virgin Books in the in the interregnum,

the dark times, the times of chaos,

>> and that's what it's about. It's about

nostalgia as a as a as a an alien

entity. It feeds off an alien entity

that feeds off memory because and it's

funny I keep coming back to that because

as much as I love old stuff

you're trying I think what the job of

the show constantly is to regenerate

itself you know and sometimes when I

meet um you know grumpy old Doctor Who

fans

>> and that you think you've just fallen

into the same space-time trap that it's

not as good as it used to because it's

not for you anymore. If you still like

it, that's great.

>> It's great, but it's not for you.

>> The principal one I remember was robot

of Sherwood, Peter Kapaldi,

uh which the doctor and Robin H have a

fight with with a spoon. Doctor fights

him with a spoon and

>> and my friend got married the week after

and we were at the reception and another

friend of mine's two little boys were

spoon fighting

>> and I thought that's job done.

>> Yeah. created something. Yeah. And it in

terms of obviously I know you've just

warned against about the perils of

nostalgia, but you mostly created new

monsters throughout your episodes. You

got to bring back the ice warriors and

>> I'm doing it now

>> and you got to you got to play around

with the Daleks.

>> Were there ever any other monsters from

the past that you would have liked to

have to have brought back? But you

that's the reason you know I mean right

from the beginning from the gelf you

know it's like I this is look I'm you

know I I grew up with so much all this

stuff obviously went into an invention

in space and time as well is that

>> that famous story that Terry Nation said

the word Dalek just rolled off the

typewriter. That's how it happens.

Here's a Doctor Who fact. Every time I

write the word bored like a board member

I accidentally type it as Borad. And I'm

sure that's how the borad in Doctor Who

and the time lash came about. I'm sure

it is because that's what happens. You

just go, "That's quite nice work.

>> I'm haunted by the Borad."

>> Um, so and I remember Gelf did I just

Oh, it's interesting. There's something

in there. I don't know. And then you you

you're wanting to be the person who can

come up with something as brilliant as

the Krinoids or the or the Zyg. And got

that would be wonderful thing to be able

to do. But that's the ambition. Of

course it is. And then obviously there's

the joy of trying to have your go at the

Daleks or or bring back the ice warriors

of whom I was always very fond. But

again, we tried to do something

different with it. And Steven took a lot

of persuading because they were

traditionally

>> very lumbering and slow

>> and I said, "Well, what about if there's

something inside it that's very fast?"

And then his then his eyes lit up. I got

away with it.

>> But um not really. No, because because

there there's a reason why those things

I I always look back as everyone does to

Tom Baker's first three years and Philip

Hinchcliffe and the fact that the Daleks

and the Cybermen were an inheritance

those scripts and the the Daleks they

did something extraordinary became

Genesis the Daleks the one of the

greatest stories in the show. But after

that it was like new right new stuff and

and one after another the Wiran the

Zyons Morbius the Kreno the just and

apart from the Zyons who only came back

initially for the 50th anniversary they

were left untouched because you go well

>> they don't need a sequel do they? Um, so

I would say again the the desire is

always to to create new. The the the

problem is trying to think if they're

anywhere near as good. Um, and also I

suppose the the nostalgia.

>> And you've uh written in so many

different genres, uh, fantasy, sci-fi,

comedy, drama. Is there one you find the

trickiest to write in? Is there one

that's the most challenging?

>> Dying is easy. Comedy is hard.

>> Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I often think

particularly in the weirdly in the

theater comedy in this country is still

weirdly sneered at.

>> Speaking of my colleague, I'm going to

use the word URSTW because it's correct.

My URSTW colleague Steven Ree uh they're

fantastic inside number nine stage show.

I mean a triumph of imagination and

twistiness and unexpectedness. And then

one review said it was a lazy cash in

and Steve said to me, "Yeah, cuz Ree

took that one very well. I can just

imagine." But I I I just thought, "How

my god." I mean, they've written 50

essentially 55 pilots

>> for that show.

>> Yeah.

>> The breadth of imagination and and and

variety is amazing. And then in the show

they took the format the st the spine of

it is an existing episode but there's so

much stuff and I thought

>> how can you say lazy and what I often

want to say is just you do

>> of course and so if we move now onto

Sherlock um

>> oh that

>> yeah we got the 15th anniversary this

year

>> um I'm not going to ask you whether it's

coming back because I feel like everyone

else unless you've got an update face on

that front. But um

>> I say I I'll stop you because 15 is not

a not an anniversary. I'm prepared to

talk to you in 5 years time. But 15 is

about I this this is this is exactly

what I'm talking about. I you see this

persistently online. It's like it's a

year ago today and you're going let it

go or it's the it's the 17th

anniversary. It's not a real real thing.

Of course, I'll talk to you. But it's it

it's I don't there's no point in an

artificial anniversary. There are

certain benchmarks like 20 and 50, but

I'm not sure 15.

>> While I won't ask whether it's what I

will say is you obviously

>> wrote your own stories, but there were

hints to previous previous books and

elements which you brought in from from

Conendor's work. Was there ever one that

you were or could in the future be

interested in not adapting per se, but

bringing in some way to the screen that

you didn't get around to?

>> Oh, yeah. I mean, the whole point of it

was we we saw it as a we could call it a

restoration. It it was it was try we

were asked to do like novelizations and

we said absolutely not. Go read Conan

Doyle. And I remember lots of people who

thought we'd been terribly clever by

having Dr. Watson in Afghanistan and

then I remember someone said but that's

it I've just read I've just read it

that's coland do went yes that was the

point so we wherever possible we tried

to you know do it as a sort of version

of I think the best episode which is

definitely a scandal in Belgravia which

is fantastic I think is is a sort of

explosion of that little story

>> and yet it has all the beats you know

>> um Sherlock still disguises himself as a

clergyman. He he has to get in create an

emergency in the house. You know, Arini

Adler beats him literally, things like

that. But there were there were always

we always go back to Doyle. If somebody

gets stuck and go and funny enough, the

one of my absolute favorite stories is a

tiny story called a case of identity,

which only really works on the page, but

it's got little bits in it. And I think

I maybe mined that like four times. I

went back and found he's Oh, isn't that

it's a beautiful little exchange or

there's something like there's someone

he's homes is watching the client and

they're havering on the street and he so

he knows

they can't decide whether to come or

not. And then then they pull rapidly on

the bell pull and he says that something

like um a rapid bell pull always means

an affair of the heart. It's so

gorgeous. And there were little bits

like that were constantly available to

us, you know, because he was a genius.

Doy was a genius and he'd been there

before.

>> You've written for so many big fun

characters, Sherlock the Doctor, now

Gabriel Book.

>> Oh, yeah.

>> Yeah. Um, is is is that how you tend to

approach projects, character first, do

you think, or do you go story first?

Obviously, I suppose when it's an

adaptation, it's a bit different, but uh

with an original story, do you think of

the character first or or or do you

think story first?

>> Uh well, this very much there was the

the idea of it. Uh I I I've always

wanted to be to be a detective, play a

detective. So, I kind of conceived what

it would be first. Um, and then the

stories follow that, you know, but in

terms of but the whole millure of this,

the whole setting of this, the post-war

setting, which I'm very fond of and I

think is is very underexplored appeal to

me. And then the idea that he is um a

gay man in a very dangerous time in a

marriage of convenience with his best

friend and and then but the whole idea

of the sort of bookshop being like an

analog computer.

>> It all sort of came together. But then

the fascinating thing is uh when I came

to actually do it, it literally I said

the words for the first time at some of

the auditions for the other actors and I

kept saying to Kar, the director, I I I

don't know how to do this yet. It's the

weirdest. I don't know how is it going

to sound. and and

>> uh the weird of course the biggest help

was was Doctor Who because I've also

grown up with that conversation being

had by doctors

>> you know John Pery famously said I

>> I just played it as myself he'd never

done it before he'd always put on funny

voices and and one of the reasons his

doctor is so great is it's so straight

>> and yet he's such a funny man you know

>> but it was a really intriguing thing for

me I thought and what we did we started

with the exteriors of the the the of

Archangel Lane and it was a very helpful

way of starting small because I was just

going I was making decisions all the

time about my look about you know

fascinating thing but that's how that's

as an actor that's what you're doing

because you're building building it up

>> uh and thank god I had a bit of time and

then eventually you sort of think oh I

think that's working that's not let's

try that and so it's a combination

really it's on the page and I know what

it sounds in my head and then you

actually have to think about how it's

translating, you know.

>> And what for this character in Bookish

for Gabriel, what elements of

detective fiction that we've seen for so

long did you want to bring to him from

other detectives and what were the bits

that you wanted to be new, I suppose?

>> Well, you always want to be new, but

I'm, you know, deeply steeped in the

genre. I've always read a lot of

detective stories and always loved them

from homes to Agatha Christie and

Dorothy Elsayers and uh all kinds of

obscure ones. And the fascinating thing

is after in the the golden age and there

was a golden age of detective fiction.

Everyone was doing it

>> and everyone had to have their detective

and everyone had to have everyone's

detective has to have a thing. And I

always, you know, I think Agatha

Christie explicitly sort of drew lines

from Sherlock Holmes and did the

opposite.

>> Yeah.

>> So, uh, Puarro is is short and foreign

and he's not he doesn't he relies on a

psychological approach in his little

gray cells rather than deduction, etc.

And then in in the aftermath of that

there, you know, Max Karadus, the blind

detective. Um there's uh there's a lot

of interesting female detectives, late

Victorian detectives. Um a strange one

called Mrs. Py who I've recently

discovered who's um she's sort of like

the female bulldog drummer. She's not

very nice at all. Uh I'm rather

interested in these stories. I was

drawing on all that to think, right,

right, what's mine then? So the idea of

uh of basically everything being in a

book somewhere

appealed to me. I there's a synthesis of

certain things which of of myself I

suppose but also just the sort of

character I'd like to play. He's he's a

nice guy.

>> Uh so he's not a not a you know crabby

or difficult detective, but he has a lot

of darkness in him because

stuff he's seen during the war and he

has a big secret which he's sort of

living with and having to be careful

about but also uh certain things which

he discovered throughout the series

about what happened to him and those he

loved before the war. So there's a lot

going on. Have there been any projects

where you've been surprised by the

reaction by the viewer reaction either

the strength of it or just viewers have

picked up on something that you didn't

think that much of? I'd say the big the

big obvious one is the immediate

response to Sherlock

>> and we we always talk about this in

interviews but but we you know Benedict

became a star overnight. We watched it

happen in real time and that was forever

ago you know but in terms of like online

reaction it was quite extraordinary. to

see it happen, what an impact it made

straight away. That was the very

positive one. The opposite one was the

incredibly divisive reaction to episode

three of Dracula.

>> And we watched that happen in real time

as well. And it was like, oh my god,

people hate it. And the really

fascinating thing was when we pitched it

in America and in China even the bit

where everyone sat up was when in our

pitch Dracula comes out of the sea and

you don't realize he's been in the

coffin for 100 years and it's them and

the helicopters everyone oh great we

thought it was so it is I think it's

really good but people it's a strange

fascinating thing this about I think

about an audiences not blaming audiences

but an inherent conservatism them. We'd

started the show as a Gothic,

>> you know, Gothic Dracula and two

episodes in we changed it and people

went, "No, no, that's not the show." And

I I think it's really good that third

episode. So did Stephen King. So that's

good. But uh it was amazingly

amazing how hostile people's reaction

was. So yeah, those those are the two

poles for me. I suppose

>> you got a piece of writing that you've

done, whether it's bookish or or or

something else that is most personal for

you that you feel the most most personal

connection to.

>> I It's probably an invention of space

and time because the the strange thing

about that was it it's not even my era.

If I were to write anything about the

history of Doctor Who, it would be about

John Perwe.

But the the foundation, the creation

myth of Doctor Who, I had grown up with

as well. And I just I always knew I

could do that, if you know me. I I

wanted to do it. And I even I pitched it

to BBC 4 in about

2001. I think I' I've got a document

about that, but then if it had even been

conceivable, it would have been a sort

of like a like a 70s play of today, like

in a white studio, sort of very

impressionistic. And and then amazingly

just because of the revival of Doctor

Who circumstances just sort of brought

it into place and uh I think that for me

as a love letter to the show I've always

loved that was that's very very

personal.

[Music]