Original subtitles

And accepting of confusion.

Yeah.

But there was a time in my life when all I had was confusion, and now

that's not at all true.

Yeah.

And I'm pleased that I lived through the confusion and that there's been such a

reward on the other side.

Yeah.

I have more to say about the cynicism.

Yeah.

Okay.

I was thinking that

some of it might come from the fact that

I thought my parents were hypocrites.

Yeah.

And

I was very

much pushed to do things, and

it always seemed very disconnected and insincere.

Right.

And they were publicly different than they were privately.

And-

There was quite a distinction between-

Mm-hmm

... public and private persona?

Yep.

How are they different?

Gosh.

Well,

it was violent and alcoholic and

abusive inside the house, and outside the house it looked

privileged

and...

Yeah.

Whatever.

So other people's perceptions of your family weren't really fit at all well with

your own perceptions of the violence and the alcohol

abuse and...

Is that right? Yeah.

That's right.

Yeah.

So I had no way of knowing that everybody wasn't like that, and I just assumed

that everybody was.

Right.

And that's, I think, very...

In my young person's

understanding of why I was cynical, I think

that I didn't know that.

I just assumed that

people who were expressing concern were

insincere about it.

Right.

I just assumed that.

Yeah.

And it took me a long time to realize that that wasn't...

So you're helping me understand the significance of those developments in your

30s, so.

Mm-hmm.

Very different understandings.

Mm-hmm.

You talk about understandings of your own life, but also understandings of where

others were coming from.

Mm-hmm.

Is that right?

Yes.

Yeah.

So...

Right. And when I saw that people might be

different than I had

seen them to be, then who I could be

changed too.

Yeah.

I could sort of thaw out from that

cynicism and confusion and-

Mm-hmm

... try.

Tell me about that, how you made that link.

Becoming aware of

the sincerity of others-

Mm-hmm

... opened up some possibilities for you.

Mm-hmm.

Would you say more about that?

Well, I realized over time, in the same way that my

paintings taught me something, taught me a lot,

my friends taught me a lot. And I realized over time

that

they really believed and lived the things that they

talked about.

Mm-hmm.

And

it took me a while to take that in because,

that was something that I was never prepared to know

existed.

Yeah.

So, then when I saw it and

felt it being taught,

I became unstuck.

So I would say it was my friends.

Sorry,

what was that?

I would say it was my friends who taught me.

Yeah. Well,

and

this is something that you got in touch

with in your 30s, the-

Mm-hmm

... the fact is that some of your friends believed and lived the things they talked

about. They actually believed and lived those things.

That it wasn't hypocrisy or insincerity.

Mm-hmm.

That they didn't have separate personas for the private and public world.

Mm-hmm.

And prior to that, you

hadn't really been prepared to acknowledge that this sort of sincerity actually

existed.

Mm-hmm.

And,

you also said that when you

saw this,

and felt this, you became unstuck.

That was the unsticking point for you, or the-

Mm-hmm

... way out of confusion.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Wow. And

was there a particular event that this sort of circulated around, or was it

something that developed over a period of time in your 30s?

I think the path metaphor is really apt in that

it was something that developed gently over time.

Yeah.

And,

I

justIt

was happening long before I saw it happening.

Yeah.

And so by the time I was aware of it happening, it

had a history of happening .

Already. Yeah.

So it wasn't something that was just starting.

Yeah.

The awareness came with the understanding.

So the getting unstuck sort of

just came along, and the consciousness of that sort of followed

in some ways. Is that right? You said there was a bit of a path

there before you were aware of it.

I don't know if I can chronologically-

Yeah.

It would,

I think, be

an okay guess.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Wow.

Was this

something

that

you'd hoped for, or was it not even on your

horizon?

I hadn't consciously hoped.

You hadn't consciously hoped for it. Right.

So

it was not something that you

had some sense of

wanting to get to,

to break out of the

confusion and to

get unstuck in the way that you did?

Was it something that you'd been looking for at all, or is it not,

or were you just sort of going through the motions of life and...

It

must be

on some level I was looking for it.

Yeah.

Well, at the time that you were confused, were you actually identifying

all your confusion, or did you have a sense that that's just how life was?

No, I knew I was confused.

Okay, so you knew you were confused.

Yeah.

So you did have a sense then that-

Mm-hmm

... life could be otherwise, in a way?

I

thought that,

yes.

You used to have a sense of that. Yeah.

Yes.

So you said that at some

level, you must have been on a bit of a search for some of the clarity-

Mm-hmm

... at some level.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So you said that...

I guess that what I was thinking about

is that it'd be very hard to reflect on that fact that you were confused if

somehow you just thought confusion was all there was.

If that was

just what life was about, I doubt that you'd be

categorizing it or

even

being able to somehow have that

acknowledgement. So I guess you've met people who've consulted you,

who have

really expressed a lot of confusion about things but haven't been conscious

of confusion.

I don't know whether that's so or not.

I know that I have.

Well, I would say, I have

a funny idea about

confusion and I'm not so

averse to confusion.

Yeah.

People seem to be very tortured by confusion.

Yeah.

And I

found it, in some ways, to be sort of a gentle

place.

It can be a more gentle place?

Yeah.

Yeah.

So.

A more gentle place than... Say more about that.

Some of the people who consult me seem to be agonized by being

confused.

Yeah.

And

when I'm confused, I

find it

par for the course.

Yeah.

It's a territory that I know well, and I don't distrust it, and I don't

think I'm confused because I did something wrong or I'm bad.

Yeah.

And I guess I have some good experiences of emerging from confusion.

Yeah, emerging from

it. Yeah.

So.

Yeah. I guess what I was thinking about your emergence from confusion-

Mm-hmm

... all the things that you said on the path.

If I really have emerged from confusion .

Well.

No.

Are you confused about that?

No.

You've been really quite clear, actually, about the past.

About

what this turning point was about, and about

how it got you unstuck, and so on.

Yeah.

And, so

if you do experience confusion, you said that you

have a really good experience of emerging from it.

Mm-hmm.

So that you know that

it's not something that you're stuck with. Is that what you mean?

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

It's not something that's threatening.

It's not threatening.

It doesn't say-

Yeah

... "Oh dear, the end is near-

Yeah

... because I'm confused."

Right. Okay. So,

I just wonder what that's like for the people who consult you who are going through

confusion,

to

be consulting someone who has a bit of an insider knowledge about that, who's also

had a good experience of emerging from it.

Mm-hmm.

Who doesn't get panicked by-

Mm-hmm

... the idea of confusion. I'm just wondering how that's

expressed in your work, what that's like for people who are consulting you who are

in confused places.Do you have a sense of what it's like?

I think I'm very helpful in that way.

Yeah.

So how is this insider knowledge helpful

to people who are feeling a bit panicked about

confusion?

Well, differently for each person, probably.

Yeah.

Do you think it's easy for them to be just in their confusion

and

is there something, I mean, I'm just wondering.

I think they might be more honoring of their confusion after we've

talked.

More honoring of?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So more able to

appreciate?

Well, there's good reasons for being confused.

Okay. So more able to appreciate the context of it.

Sure.

The forces at play that contribute to it, those sorts of things.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, and as we're talking, I'm thinking you have to be

sort of thinking in the first place to even be confused.

Yeah.

So it's a sign that you're trying to...

That you're paying attention.

Yeah.

You do care and that-

Yeah.

That they do

care about their own life enough to-

Right, to be confused.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So that's how some of your insider knowledges get put to work with people

consulting you.

Mm-hmm.

And you said, what's their experience of that?

Like, would you say relief, or what

do people experience when

what gets acknowledged is the context of the confusion, the forces at play,

the extent to which this does reflect that

they do care.

What's your guess about what people's experience of this

is?

That they would be more honoring of their confusion, that they see the confusion

is,

it's not an end point. It's not where the boat lands.

It's something that the boat goes through.

Right, okay.

Right,

okay.

I mean, necessarily. Not necessarily.

I mean,

depends.

Well, I guess that will bring some sense of relief from-

Oh

... some.

Well, I wouldn't want to speak for them.

Yeah. Sorry. Yes.

Yeah. I think they might feel more,

in control of their lives. Less threatened

by what they think their confusion might be.

Less threatened.

Yeah.

Okay. I'm just getting some idea of how this knowledge gets

expressed in your work with people who consult you and-

Mm-hmm

...

I'm always interested in the insider knowledge that therapists bring

with them. It doesn't really have much to do with

professional texts,

but in how their insider knowledge gets

performed in their work and-

Mm-hmm

...

what that brings to their work and other people's lives.

So

you're helping me

understand some of that. And

the thing that I was... I'd like to ask a few

more questions about this turning point.

But I'm just wondering how we're going in this conversation in terms of like what

your first,

your agenda for this meeting you said was to more,

be more knowledgeable about the

path or

paths or whatever.

Is this conversation contributing to your agenda for-

Yes.

Why? In what way or why would you say it is?

Because,

it's moving in areas where my thought

doesn't always take me.

Yeah.

So it's a new path.

Right. Well, I appreciate that, but I also appreciate these conversations

because they contribute to the rich description of narrative work.

I-

Mm-hmm

... get a sense of how your life is joined to

mine, or your understandings are joined with mine,

and mine with yours.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. So it's great.

Yeah. It is.

I was going to ask you a little bit about,

just something I'm a little bit...

I'm curious about all sorts of things and that word gets a bit overused,

but

I guess for me it's a good word because,

it's something that I experience a lot of in my conversations with people.

Mm-hmm.

And I

have a,

just a

little understanding of

what you went through growing up and

how

the different presentations of

public and private and-

Mm-hmm

... contribute so powerfully to confusion

and

make it really difficult for people to

really discern-

Mm-hmm

... things.

And

I think

your orientation to confusion is one that has to

do with the

good experience of emerging from it as well.

But some people wind up being a bit condemned to it.

Mm-hmm.

But you weren't, and

that somehow you

didOpened yourself

to

the sincerity of some people.

Mm-hmm.

And you somehow allowed that to

have the effect on you that it had.

Mm-hmm.

And this unstuck you. And I

was wondering about that, how you managed that.

And I was also thinking about what we were talking about earlier, the fact that you

said that you probably were

searching for something else in a way, that you were able to acknowledge confusion.

Mm-hmm.

And you said,

what did you say that that meant? That if you can acknowledge confusion, it means

that...

Do you remember what you said?

No.

I wrote it down, but my glasses are left home this morning, and

I'm having trouble reading some of my writing, so.

You said, "It shows that people are thinking."

That's right.

Right.

Right.

So you were thinking.

Mm-hmm.

And

you were

engaged in some sort of search, not quite knowing what to look for or where to

look.

Right.

But it was for something different.

Yes.

Do you understand how come?

Why I was engaged in the search for...

Yeah, why it was that you

weren't just

resigned to

going through the motions of life-

In the way that you were, with that sense of confusion.

Uh-huh.

Why it was that

you

were searching for something different, even if you couldn't really properly

articulate it. You were thinking,

and

I'm just wondering a little bit about how that was possible under the-

Yeah

... circumstances that you grew up in.

Right. That's a really good question.

I don't know if I have an answer for that.

Was there any experiences that you had that

gave you some hint that

life could be lived otherwise? That

there were other ways of being that

had more to do with having a past or...

I suppose there were. I can't get in touch with them right now.

Yeah.

But,

to reiterate, I really was surprised in my early 30s when I

realized that

some people were genuine and-

Yeah

... really

being who they said they were. And

so it really was a surprise.

Yeah. But I don't want in any way to take anything away from the

people that

expressed that.

Mm-hmm.

Who connected with you in those really

genuine ways.

So I don't want to take anything away from that.

Mm-hmm.

But it also somehow required you to break from cynicism

in order to even appreciate that, to let that touch you.

Yes.

You told me that it-

I don't know

... touched you to the point that

you

became unstuck.

Yeah.

Are you sure that's what I said?

Sorry?

What?

Are you sure that's what I said?

That's what you said, yeah.

Because you can't read.

Some of what I can read.

You're making it up. No.

Yeah.

No, I said that.

Yeah.

So

how was it that I was able-

To break from cynicism-

Right

... to the point of opening yourself to people touching like this

How did I even know that that would be okay?

Yeah.

That I could do that.

Yeah.

That-

After so much that would be discouraging effect.

After so many experiences of

hypocrisy or...

Well, one thing that comes to me, and this is a answer, not

the answer, but it just comes to me that

I had the experience.

I went away to boarding school, and

the

nuns were very kind. And I

didn't

take that in.

But I think I had many experiences where

people were very kind and considerate

and thoughtful about me, I just didn't believe them.

Right.

So it was really a matter of

somehow becoming able to believe it, rather than not

having seen it before.

Okay.

Yeah.

So

does that make any sense?

Yeah, it does. Yeah.

Makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. So, you experienced from those nuns

kindness and considerateness and thoughtfulness.

Mm-hmm.

But it was another thing to actually believe it.

Yeah.

So it was actually part of your experience, but the next step was to believe

it.

Right.

That was like going-

It was there, and I didn't believe it.

Yeah.

But it was there.

Yeah.

When I look back, I can remember

things.

I was safer there than I thought I was.

Right. Yeah.

So you were actually able to

discern acts of kindness and

considerateness and thoughtfulness.

Mm-hmm.

There's nothing to actually believe the sincerity of it. Is that right?

Right.

Yeah. So you didn't actually,

disqualify those acts, is that right? You were available to them?

But you didn't actually necessarily believe that they were authentic,

or...

Maybe I had sort of a clinical attitude about it.

Yeah.

Well, that is kindness.

Right.

But I didn't feel the warmth of it.

Yeah. Right. Okay.

Do you think that this could have played a part in at least providing a bit of a

foundation for what happened in your 30s?

Mm-hmm.

Where you experienced similar acts, but this time you

really let them touch you in a way?

Yeah. It was an accumulation.

Accumulation.

Yeah.

Right.

All my friends

and probably it started,

even before boarding

school.

Yeah.

I'm sure it started... I

probably needed a lot of proof.

Yeah.

You know?

Yeah.

So you've collected proof over a period of years.

Collected proof

over time.

Yep.

How long were you collecting proof for?

Probably 31 years.

31 years.

Pretty skeptical.

Well-

No, but pretty earnest. I mean, to keep collecting proof-

I know. That's one word for it.

Yeah.

Another word for

it. There are other ways of describing this collection of proof.

Mm-hmm.

I mean,

does it fit with a desire

to have a path in

life or to

stand somewhere else in life?

I mean,

does it fit with some project to

break from cynicism? I mean, I'm just wondering

why you'd be collecting proof. Do you know what I mean? So...

Mm-hmm.

Maybe

it connects with a hope that I had that maybe people would

be like they pretended to be.

So the collection of proof was in some way supported by a hope.

Mm-hmm.

So that's what it was about.

That the

appearance might in fact

be

the appearance of something real rather

than a show.

What would you think about if you were consulting with a person who had

been through similar experiences,

and then set about to collect proof-

Mm-hmm

... to maybe, might establish a different sort of world, and they

kept on collecting proof for 31 years and kept at it and

didn't abandon that. They just kept collecting proof until

they were in a position to really,

open themselves to being touched by others' sincerity and

genuineness. I mean, how would you be

feeling towards a person who was consulting you that,

against everything that was discouraging of a hope,

they'd gone on and collected proof over a long period of time?

I mean, what would you be experiencing for

them or in relation to them?

I don't know how to answer that.

What would I be experiencing?

Yeah.

Can you say that again?

If someone was consulting you.

Okay.

Okay. And,

they'd had similar experiences-

Right

... that you'd had that have been highly encouraging of cynicism.

Right?

Yes.

Despite that, they nurtured this little hope and

used that to collect proof over a long period of

time.

Mm-hmm.

Despite a lot of encouragements along the way, they kept

collecting proof until they had enough of it to open their lives

to others, to allow them to-

Mm-hmm

... be touched. I mean, what would you

be thinking of that person? What would you be respecting about them?

Or

would you think that they were sort of

intrepid, or would you be appreciating their

perseverance? Or what

is it that you'd be

respecting about that person?

I would say that they had been looking for something worthwhile.

That they'd been looking for something worthwhile.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would respect their search.

And, what would you respect about the fact they kept at it,

and kept at it until they-

That's the part that I don't... Because

you're asking me about me really. I mean, you're asking me

to see another person as

going through what I've been through, and it seems like

there was never any other option.

Yeah.

Okay.

So it doesn't seem like a matter of endurance or perseverance-

Mm-hmm

... or stick-to-it-iveness or something.

It just seems

like,

well, what else would you do?

Yeah. But I imagine that's what someone might say to you.

But you'd understand they had other options.

Options that included hurting their own life.

Right.

And, so-

Yeah. It's fuzzy for me to think around that.

Yeah. It's just a speculative question.

I understand.

I don't know. It was

just-Just

a possible question.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

No, and I wish I had a better answer for you.

Yeah.

Don't laugh.

Well, no, all answers are good answers.

Okay.

Oh, what a relief.

Well, maybe I could be transparent.

Okay.

I

know that there were probably a number of options.

Mm-hmm.

One was to abandon your sort of cynicism.

Mm-hmm.

Another would be to be resigned to just going through the

motions of life without having a particular order or pattern or

path, not ever being clear about how things connected to each

other.

Mm-hmm.

A foggy-

A foggy life. Yeah.

Yeah.

Another option would have

been to, uh,

enrich your own life in ways.

There are

probably a lot of possible

options, and

so that's what I was thinking about.

Mm-hmm.

So why this option?

Yeah.

No, not necessarily even why, but what would you be

appreciating about the person who-

Someone who chose that.

Yeah. Who chose

to

find a real place where they could stand by their hope and engage in proof

collection over a period of 31 years.

I know that people have

been

around me in loving ways,

but I was so removed that I don't

remember-

Yeah

... those kinds of experiences.

Yeah.

And I know they must have been there.

I just know that.

Yeah. Do you have a sense of what figures, uh-

Who they might have been?

Yeah.

You mentioned the nuns at your school.

Yeah. Yes, I just went to my 30th high school reunion.

Did you?

Yeah. And the woman who was our freshman

year

teacher was there, and

she just, it seemed to mean so much to her to see us.

And

it was

really touching to me. I realized that we mattered to

her.

Yeah.

You know, that she saw us and thought about us, and

that really was

amazing to me.

Yeah.

I used to feel so disconnected, you know.

To see that, that

we were meaningful.

Would she have any idea that

her kindness and

considerateness and thoughtfulness all provide a foundation

for this turning point in your life in your 30s?

No, I don't think so.

She wouldn't know that?

No. I don't think she-- Well, I don't know.

It's hard to tell what they

knew about me.

Yeah.

Because I-

Maybe.

Well, I just wondered, you know, like, that they contributed to your

collection of proof.

Mm-hmm. Yes.

That's made it possible-

Yes

... for you to open your life to

acts of genuineness.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

What would it be like... I'm not suggesting, it's not a proposal, but it's just

speculation. What would it be like for you to have a conversation in which you

informed her of that, in which you

talked a little bit about how she provided,

how she contributed to your collection of proof

that

later provided a bit of a foundation for you to step into a,

a, a-

I'm imagining this wonderful museum, you know.

Yeah.

My collection of proof museum.

Yeah.

And there are all these displays and wings.

Yeah.

So what would it be like for her to tell...

Well, why would she want-

There's someone at the door.

Okay. I think I got it.

Oh, thought there was someone there. Sorry.

Sounded like somebody. So what, what would it be like for her-

Yeah

... to hear from me?

Yeah. No, what would it be like for you to share this with her?

You know-

She-- Oh.

How would you feel about actually

putting her in touch with how she contributed to your proof collection

that

provided a foundation for your possibilities for your life in your

30s?

No, I think she'd really like that.

Yeah.

I mean, if I told her that.

What would the experience be like for you?

Right.

Would it be-

That part

... would it be a positive thing-

It would be hard for me to do that because it would, it seems that part of it would

be having to be transparent to her about

who I was at the time.

Yeah.

And, um-

And what you'd gone through.

Yes.

Exactly. Okay.

Yes.

Yeah. So, and that might not be such a good idea?

No, it would probably be a very good idea, but it'd just be hard.

Oh, yeah.

To, um...

You know, I think in some ways, the nuns wanted to think that we were

happy-

Sure

... young people.

Yeah.

And, this was,

in the '60s, and, I don't think

the whole thing about

abuse in families and stuff like that, I didn't-- Maybe people knew

about it, but I didn't, you know, it wasn't really a topic

or-

Yeah

... I don't think that they might have known that some of us

were from

families where abuse was going on.

Right.

But maybe they did. I mean, see, I'm k-- I was a kid.

Yeah.

You know, when I think back, I can only-

Yeah

... think as I thought then.

Yeah.

So maybe they did know things that I don't know.

They may-

It's just an idea. We're going to switch around and hear from the team.

Mm-hmm.

How's this conversation been for you?

Good.

Why would you say that?

Because,

it's more poignant to me that I asked to talk

about my path and clarity and visibility

because I'm more in touch with

the

murkiness of so much before.

Yeah.

And I see why it's really meaningful to

me to ask about that.

Yeah.

And that it is in fact,

really important

to me.

So it has, in a way, met with part of your agenda

for our conversation-

Mm-hmm

... about being a little more knowledgeable or

knowing more about this other thing of your life,

this-

Yes

... past and history of it.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And seeing myself on the path.

Yeah.

Where-

Yeah.

You know. Yeah.

Yeah.

Very helpful.

Yeah. Okay. That's great.

Yeah.

Well, I've enjoyed our conversation very much.

It's been-

... a journey. It's been quite a journey.

Yeah. It has been.

Shall we hear from the team?

Yes.

Would you turn the sound down, please?

I was very much

taken with

Pam's

feeling comfortable in being able to have, with

confusion, and being able to have

that

insider knowledge available to her clients.

So I think one of the things that I'll take

from this is that reminder

that it isn't awful, it's not dreadful, and

it might even be

quite helpful

to the people that consult us. To

be confused,

perhaps

even within the session, as we're going alongside

or, as you said once, either behind people-

Mm-hmm

...

to not have a clear notion for myself of where

we might be going. I

don't know if she meant confusion in that sense, but not having a

preset path and

please don't misunderstand me too quickly,

as Pam said yesterday.

Mm-hmm.

So, that's a really good reminder for me.

So I was wondering, Mary, what it was that Pam was saying that did trigger that

off for you.

Oh, yes, and I realized I didn't introduce myself.

Yes, I'm Mary. I'm a therapist in Los Angeles.

Thank you.

I suppose I was thinking back to the

years when I was

first in practice

and the panic for me

that I remember from those times of,

"Oh my God, it's 20 minutes after the hour, and I don't have a clue

about what I'm supposed to be doing here, or how

to solve this person's problem."

And I don't know

actually what contributed very much to

the relief of thinking, "Oh, I don't...

It's all right. It's all right. I don't have to solve

it."

It's all right to be confused about what's going on.

Perhaps there's some confusion for this person here

too. So,

I liked the reminder.

Thank you.

Yeah, I

share that reminding

because for me, it wasn't reminding, it was an

opportune time for me to be reminded about that.

And what I'll take away very strongly is,

at the moment, I'm

consulting with somebody who would very much describe themselves as being in a

confused

place. And

I think I've been treading this line between being

invited

to take responsibility for that confusion, and at the same time

respecting that confusion is okay and something comes from it.

And so it was really

good for me to be reminded because that helps me to step

towards the side of respecting and honoring that confusion and

probably clears the space to be

more curious about that person's experience and,

the history of confusion for her. And

so,

yeah, I'll take that away because

it certainly opens up a whole new

series of options, of questions that I can ask that

will help me to locate myself where she is,

rather than where I've been tempted to be.

First of all, the experience of hearing that

reflecting was

really great.

It's great to be heard.

A lot of the first

reflections were about confusion, and I was starting to feel like the

ambassador from confusion.

But that's an okay thing to be,

because it is very structuralist, I guess, to

denigrate confusion.

Yeah.

And,

I wrote down one thought. I can't remember

who I was listening to when I wrote this down, but I wrote, "My history of

people trying to un-confuse me was very confusing."

I think that's why I

finally became friends with confusion, as

somebody else suggested, that I befriended it.

And that's true because

it was

unbearable after a while to have people try to un-confuse me.

They did such a sloppy