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[silence]
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[ominous music ♪]
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[metal jangling]
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[slow footsteps]
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♪♪
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[dog barking in distance]
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Hey!
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Hey!
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Hey!
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[barking continues]
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Hey!
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Hey!
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[District Attorney]
Good afternoon, Mr. Ward.
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[Delbert]
Afternoon.
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[DA]
You live up on Johnson Road?
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[Delbert]
Yes.
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[DA]
You live there all your life?
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[Delbert]
Yes, lived there all my life.
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[DA]
And you said you had a few brothers.
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[Delbert]
Yes.
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[DA]
Roscoe, Lyman, William?
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[Delbert]
Yes.
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[clears throat]
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[DA] Remember this question,
Mr. Ward, from the statement...
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"How do you feel
about his pain?"
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Remember that question
being asked?
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00:02:10,368 --> 00:02:11,834
[Delbert]
Yes, I remember that question being--
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[DA]
Remember the answer?
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"I felt that he should
go to the doctors.
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My feelings were, that I felt Bill
would be better off
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away from his pain,
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so he wouldn't be in pain
and hollering anymore."
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[Delbert]
Well, I remember that.
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[DA] You gave that statement, right?
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[Delbert]
Yes.
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[DA]
Remember this question?
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"After Bill went to sleep,
what did you decide to do?"
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[Delbert] Yes, I remember that question.
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[DA]
Remember giving this answer?
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"I decided to put my hand
over his mouth.
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I reached around behind him
with my right hand
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and put it over his mouth.
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He struggled for a little bit,
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but then stopped.
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I wanted to make sure that Bill wasn't
suffering anymore, that he was dead."
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[Delbert]
Yes, I remember that a--
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[DA] You remember giving that answer?
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00:02:49,434 --> 00:02:50,601
[Delbert] I remember giving that answer,
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after they showed me
how I done it down there
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and told me how I done it.
51
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[DA]
Remember this question?
52
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"How long was your hand
over his mouth?"
53
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[Delbert]
Yes.
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[DA]
Answer, "About five minutes."
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[Delbert]
That's what they told me.
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[DA] Th-That's the answer you gave.
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[Delbert] That's the answer they told me,
then I agreed with 'em.
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[cows mooing]
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♪♪
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[horse snorting]
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[leaves rustling]
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[birds chirping]
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[car driving by]
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Today, Delbert Ward is living
in the Madison County Jail.
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Accused of killing
his brother and roommate.
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State police report the body
of 64-year-old William Ward
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was found in his bed
at 5:30 yesterday morning.
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An autopsy showed
he had been suffocated.
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Police believe 59-year-old
Delbert Ward
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00:04:01,101 --> 00:04:02,501
committed the crime.
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00:04:02,534 --> 00:04:04,234
Authorities don't yet know
a motive.
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00:04:04,267 --> 00:04:06,568
Everybody in Munnsville
knows the Ward boys.
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Bill and Delbert used to ride
this green tractor
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into town every day,
and their brothers,
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Lyman and Roscoe,
they'd take the red one.
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Good evening, everyone.
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A man accused of killing
his brother out of mercy
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is out of jail tonight.
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As Christie Casciano tells us,
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an entire community stood
behind the dairy farmer
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and, for Delbert Ward,
that means freedom.
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[Female Reporter]
The story of Delbert Ward starts here.
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Ward lived and farmed here
with his three brothers
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for most of his life.
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But, life for Delbert Ward
changed on June sixth,
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when his 64-year-old brother,
William died of suffocation.
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00:04:38,501 --> 00:04:40,834
Today, a judge set bail
for Delbert Ward
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and Delbert's friends
posted bail.
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After three weeks, Delbert Ward
was released from jail.
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[Male Reporter]
What are you gonna do first?
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Goin' home to relax.
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00:04:48,934 --> 00:04:51,500
So, Delbert Ward
has cleared his first hurdle
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00:04:51,533 --> 00:04:52,701
with the law.
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00:04:52,735 --> 00:04:55,368
Even though the battle
isn't over just yet,
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Delbert Ward says he has
faith in the justice system.
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In Madison County,
Donna Speziale.
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News Center 5.
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[Male Interviewer]
Do you enjoy this work?
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00:05:09,167 --> 00:05:11,067
Sure. Always done it.
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What do you like about it?
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Well, the smell of the hay.
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[stammering]
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If you was around here
when you first cut it,
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you get the smell of it.
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It smells good.
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What are you
thinking about now, Delbert?
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I ain't thinkin'.
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Just watchin' him.
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So, if he breaks down,
I go help him,
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00:05:42,634 --> 00:05:43,900
if he breaks anything.
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00:05:46,868 --> 00:05:48,167
How long is this gonna take?
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[crickets chirping]
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Gosh, it's hard to say.
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If you get it all
on one load or not.
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00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:04,867
He don't go too fast.
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Do you mind that we're
making a film about you?
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No.
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00:06:11,733 --> 00:06:13,366
Don't bother me.
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He went natural.
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Bill died naturally?
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00:06:18,867 --> 00:06:19,867
He, uh...
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He went natural,
'cause he lost a lot of weight.
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[goat bleating]
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00:06:26,367 --> 00:06:29,301
And he always complained
that his feet botherin' him.
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He always walked lame.
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Yup.
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[indistinct mumbling]
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00:06:41,501 --> 00:06:43,533
'Cause he-he-he
got awful thin.
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00:06:44,801 --> 00:06:47,034
He lost a lot of weight.
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00:06:47,067 --> 00:06:48,401
How was he the week before?
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Huh?
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How was he the week before?
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The week before he died.
How was Bill?
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Not too hot.
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00:06:58,167 --> 00:06:59,768
Well, you see, back years ago,
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he got cut with a chainsaw.
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00:07:02,734 --> 00:07:05,067
And that, that always
bothered him.
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00:07:08,367 --> 00:07:09,833
What happened?
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00:07:09,867 --> 00:07:11,333
Couldn't shut it off.
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00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:14,267
With the chainsaw, what happened?
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It cut him.
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00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:18,434
What did the police say to you
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00:07:18,467 --> 00:07:20,634
when you were alone
in the room with them?
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00:07:20,668 --> 00:07:22,534
- Do you remember?
- No.
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'Cause I was all shook up.
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00:07:24,901 --> 00:07:26,367
Worse than I am now.
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00:07:27,434 --> 00:07:29,111
- How was it then?
- Huh?
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00:07:29,133 --> 00:07:30,057
How was it then?
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00:07:30,301 --> 00:07:32,667
- Oh, I was bad down there.
- Why is that?
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00:07:32,701 --> 00:07:33,801
Well, 'cause I'm nervous,
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[indistinct mumbling]
said not to bother me.
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00:07:37,868 --> 00:07:40,468
- You were nervous.
- Yeah.
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00:07:40,502 --> 00:07:43,200
Well, they said you could have a stroke
or heart attack, you're gone.
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Hm.
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00:07:52,101 --> 00:07:54,167
We're not making you nervous,
are ya?
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Everything makes me nervous.
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00:07:55,534 --> 00:07:57,567
'Cause always was,
ever since--
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[indistinct]
- Everything makes you nervous?
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00:07:59,400 --> 00:08:00,400
Yep.
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00:08:00,434 --> 00:08:02,234
Ever since you were a little kid?
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00:08:02,267 --> 00:08:03,634
Yep, always nervous.
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00:08:03,667 --> 00:08:05,868
Why is-- do you
remember what was the...
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00:08:05,901 --> 00:08:07,001
I don't know...
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00:08:07,034 --> 00:08:08,534
'Cause I was probably
born to be nervous.
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00:08:08,567 --> 00:08:09,667
You were born to be nervous?
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00:08:09,701 --> 00:08:11,535
Probably.
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00:08:11,568 --> 00:08:15,767
I ain't the only ones nervous,
there's lot of guys around here's nervous.
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00:08:15,801 --> 00:08:17,468
Like, who else is nervous?
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00:08:17,502 --> 00:08:19,968
Spend [indistinct] these farmers,
you get nervous.
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00:08:20,001 --> 00:08:21,067
What makes you nervous?
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00:08:21,100 --> 00:08:22,267
Me?
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00:08:22,300 --> 00:08:24,634
I don't know,
always been nervous.
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All my life.
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So, that's what I'm gonna do.
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♪♪
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[indistinct mumbling]
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00:09:08,367 --> 00:09:10,566
[dog barking in distance]
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When we were down
in the courthouse,
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00:09:27,168 --> 00:09:29,501
we, we went down just to look.
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00:09:29,534 --> 00:09:32,367
Didn't have any idea
what we were getting into.
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00:09:32,400 --> 00:09:34,068
And when they posted it,
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the judge said that he would
let him out on $10,000 bail.
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And we went down, I went down,
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00:09:40,567 --> 00:09:42,467
she sat in a seat up there
and I went down
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where the lawyer was
explaining it to us,
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00:09:45,068 --> 00:09:46,667
'cause we're
a bunch of dummies, you know,
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00:09:46,701 --> 00:09:49,667
we didn't know,
understand the procedure.
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00:09:49,701 --> 00:09:52,901
And the lawyer said,
we gotta scrape up $10,000,
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00:09:52,934 --> 00:09:54,667
so I went back to where she sat
190
00:09:54,701 --> 00:09:56,534
and I said, "Mom," I said,
191
00:09:56,567 --> 00:09:57,868
"you got your checkbook
with you?"
192
00:09:57,901 --> 00:09:59,901
- Yep.
- And she says, "Yes."
193
00:09:59,934 --> 00:10:04,901
And I said, "Jesus Christ, make out
a check for a thousand dollars."
194
00:10:04,934 --> 00:10:06,834
She says, "What for?"
195
00:10:06,868 --> 00:10:08,501
And I says...
196
00:10:08,534 --> 00:10:09,901
"They're doin' a lot of
talkin' down there,
197
00:10:09,934 --> 00:10:12,634
they gotta scrape up $10,000
and nobody...
198
00:10:12,667 --> 00:10:14,567
They're doin' a lot of
iffin' and andin',
199
00:10:14,601 --> 00:10:16,467
but no money."
200
00:10:16,501 --> 00:10:18,968
So, I took down the check,
hand to Charlie.
201
00:10:19,001 --> 00:10:23,334
I said, "Charlie, here's
a start for the 10,000."
202
00:10:23,367 --> 00:10:24,968
It touched the ball off.
203
00:10:25,001 --> 00:10:26,668
Hell, we had 10,000 inside of
204
00:10:26,702 --> 00:10:28,101
That's how they got our picture.
- ...ten, fifteen minutes.
205
00:10:28,134 --> 00:10:31,068
Hell, it wouldn't hurt any
more if it'd been my kid.
206
00:10:31,101 --> 00:10:32,734
- Because...
- You wouldn't believe it.
207
00:10:32,767 --> 00:10:34,501
W-W-We knew that...
208
00:10:34,534 --> 00:10:36,968
The kid, you know, we've
known him all our life.
209
00:10:37,001 --> 00:10:38,667
He isn't a kid, but he's
younger than we are.
210
00:10:38,701 --> 00:10:41,567
Well, Christ, he's 60 years old,
211
00:10:41,601 --> 00:10:43,133
A lot younger, a lot younger.
- ...and we're 80.
212
00:10:43,167 --> 00:10:44,368
Hell of a lot of difference.
213
00:10:44,401 --> 00:10:45,501
And after they got his whiskers off,
he looked younger.
214
00:10:45,534 --> 00:10:46,868
Yeah.
215
00:10:46,901 --> 00:10:49,534
He looked like Jesus Christ when they-
when they brought him in.
216
00:10:49,567 --> 00:10:50,501
I imagine he's got 'em on again.
217
00:10:50,534 --> 00:10:51,234
Did you see him
before he had his whiskers?
218
00:10:51,267 --> 00:10:52,234
[Interviewer]
Yeah.
219
00:10:52,267 --> 00:10:54,667
He made me think of
Jesus Christ all of a...
220
00:10:54,701 --> 00:10:56,734
i-in a way, you know.
221
00:10:56,767 --> 00:10:59,001
Not that he was that big a saint,
222
00:10:59,034 --> 00:11:01,400
or anything, you know, but, uh,
223
00:11:01,434 --> 00:11:03,400
he was never any hell raiser.
224
00:11:03,434 --> 00:11:05,268
[crickets chirping]
225
00:11:05,301 --> 00:11:08,968
The DA, I think, he wants to
be elected again next term.
226
00:11:09,001 --> 00:11:10,167
[Mr. Bishopp]
Well, I'll tell you something...
227
00:11:10,200 --> 00:11:11,567
And this is...
228
00:11:11,601 --> 00:11:14,001
They're just trying
to blow this thing way up.
229
00:11:14,034 --> 00:11:16,301
It's a, it's a political
thing, that's what it is.
230
00:11:16,335 --> 00:11:18,634
It's somebody to make a big
name out of it.
231
00:11:18,667 --> 00:11:21,400
They pick on somebody like
this, you know, that, uh,
232
00:11:21,434 --> 00:11:23,168
nobody'd think
anything about it, you know.
233
00:11:23,201 --> 00:11:25,067
- Yeah.
- Well, they figured they'd put him away.
234
00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:26,200
Sure.
235
00:11:26,234 --> 00:11:27,467
Put him away, and then...
236
00:11:27,501 --> 00:11:30,234
and, put the other two
in a home somewhere
237
00:11:30,267 --> 00:11:31,334
and that'd be it, you know.
238
00:11:31,367 --> 00:11:32,668
Forget about 'em.
- Yeah.
239
00:11:32,702 --> 00:11:34,901
[Mrs. Landers] But don't you think
that Bill really just died
240
00:11:34,934 --> 00:11:36,968
because he was sick?
241
00:11:37,001 --> 00:11:41,667
Lyman said, at night, Bill...
was choking and coughing.
242
00:11:41,701 --> 00:11:42,667
Yeah.
243
00:11:42,701 --> 00:11:43,967
He was coughing.
He was coughing bad.
244
00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:45,034
Yeah.
245
00:11:45,068 --> 00:11:47,467
Yes, but if somebody put
their hand over your mouth,
246
00:11:47,501 --> 00:11:49,235
would you fight him a little bit?
247
00:11:49,268 --> 00:11:52,334
Why, Bill, Bill was a lot
stronger than Delbert.
248
00:11:52,367 --> 00:11:54,001
I think so, too.
249
00:11:54,034 --> 00:11:56,134
- Delbert couldn't do that!
- Art went up there...
250
00:11:56,168 --> 00:11:57,133
Not if Bill didn't want him to.
251
00:11:57,167 --> 00:11:58,168
There's no possible way.
252
00:11:58,201 --> 00:12:00,300
They said he'd been dead
since midnight.
253
00:12:00,334 --> 00:12:01,301
That's right.
254
00:12:01,335 --> 00:12:04,201
And, and he, he's gonna
kill his own brother
255
00:12:04,235 --> 00:12:05,901
and then sleep side of him
the rest of the night
256
00:12:05,934 --> 00:12:06,901
until five o'clock
in the morning?
257
00:12:06,934 --> 00:12:08,567
That's, that's right!
That's right.
258
00:12:08,601 --> 00:12:10,566
It's just unbelievable what...
259
00:12:11,967 --> 00:12:13,201
what they're trying to pull
260
00:12:13,234 --> 00:12:14,667
and what they're trying to do.
261
00:12:14,701 --> 00:12:17,000
[dog barking]
262
00:12:17,033 --> 00:12:20,800
♪♪
263
00:12:24,768 --> 00:12:28,001
[Interviewer] Delbert, what happened
the morning Bill died?
264
00:12:28,034 --> 00:12:30,435
[Delbert] Well, I got up,
I went outdoors,
265
00:12:30,468 --> 00:12:33,934
I come back in to put
my boots or shoes on.
266
00:12:33,967 --> 00:12:35,734
I hollered at him,
he didn't answer me,
267
00:12:35,767 --> 00:12:38,400
and I went in there,
and that's... where he laid.
268
00:12:39,901 --> 00:12:41,367
He was gone.
269
00:12:43,867 --> 00:12:45,067
He died, so...
270
00:12:45,100 --> 00:12:47,400
I got Roscoe up.
271
00:12:47,434 --> 00:12:49,068
I just looked at him.
272
00:12:49,101 --> 00:12:50,068
I didn't touch him or nothing,
273
00:12:50,101 --> 00:12:52,467
just looked at him,
I see he was gone.
274
00:12:55,635 --> 00:12:57,200
[Interviewer]
Did he have a pillow over his head?
275
00:12:57,233 --> 00:12:59,600
No!
Did not!
276
00:13:01,435 --> 00:13:03,068
Didn't have nothing,
only a blanket.
277
00:13:03,101 --> 00:13:05,534
It come up to about here on him.
278
00:13:05,567 --> 00:13:07,467
He had a pillow under his head.
279
00:13:09,435 --> 00:13:11,701
Laying on it,
laid his head on it,
280
00:13:11,734 --> 00:13:13,600
and he had one arm out
281
00:13:13,634 --> 00:13:16,068
like, he laid like that,
282
00:13:16,101 --> 00:13:17,701
just as though he was sleeping.
283
00:13:22,101 --> 00:13:24,067
I can tell when a person is dead.
284
00:13:25,734 --> 00:13:28,200
[chuckling]
You could, too.
285
00:13:29,802 --> 00:13:31,834
I didn't know what was the
matter 'til I got up there,
286
00:13:31,867 --> 00:13:33,201
and I see he was dead.
287
00:13:33,234 --> 00:13:36,001
Took hold of his arm,
his arm was flimsy.
288
00:13:36,034 --> 00:13:38,101
It wasn't stiff,
but it was flimsy.
289
00:13:38,134 --> 00:13:41,268
Kind of cool, he wasn't cold,
but he was cool.
290
00:13:41,301 --> 00:13:43,200
You could tell
that his arm was cold.
291
00:13:43,233 --> 00:13:44,534
It was cool.
292
00:13:44,567 --> 00:13:46,000
I didn't say cold.
Cool.
293
00:13:46,967 --> 00:13:48,900
Shit, I don't think
he's been dead too long.
294
00:13:50,901 --> 00:13:52,634
Th-That was six o'clock.
295
00:13:54,867 --> 00:13:58,268
[John Teeple]
The, um, EMT people arrived,
296
00:13:58,301 --> 00:14:00,500
and it's kind of
interesting in...
297
00:14:00,534 --> 00:14:02,834
a country setting like this,
298
00:14:02,867 --> 00:14:04,568
if the EMT comes,
299
00:14:04,601 --> 00:14:07,201
everybody in the Volunteer
Fire Department shows up,
300
00:14:07,234 --> 00:14:09,600
all of whom knew
the boys of course.
301
00:14:09,634 --> 00:14:12,368
I hate to call 'em "boys."
It's...
302
00:14:12,401 --> 00:14:15,867
They're known that way
i-in the county, but...
303
00:14:15,901 --> 00:14:18,667
and I'm-I'm pretty sure they
don't think it's a put down,
304
00:14:18,701 --> 00:14:20,400
but it feels like one to me.
305
00:14:20,434 --> 00:14:22,701
The morning that Bill died,
306
00:14:22,734 --> 00:14:26,068
um, John had called me,
307
00:14:26,101 --> 00:14:28,101
and I went right over
308
00:14:28,134 --> 00:14:32,834
and I was there like ten
minutes after he'd called me.
309
00:14:32,867 --> 00:14:34,734
And I said to Delbert,
310
00:14:34,767 --> 00:14:35,901
"Would you like John and I,
311
00:14:35,934 --> 00:14:37,601
what would you like
John and I to do?
312
00:14:37,635 --> 00:14:40,767
Would you like us to do the chores
here this morning for ya?
313
00:14:40,801 --> 00:14:43,100
Help you out this morning
or something?"
314
00:14:43,133 --> 00:14:45,001
And Delbert says,
315
00:14:45,034 --> 00:14:48,701
"I would like you and John
to go get a dark suit
316
00:14:48,734 --> 00:14:51,133
and a while shirt and a tie...
317
00:14:52,701 --> 00:14:53,867
for Bill."
318
00:14:53,901 --> 00:14:55,933
[crickets chirping]
319
00:15:04,801 --> 00:15:06,100
And he cried.
320
00:15:07,867 --> 00:15:09,168
After they left that morning,
321
00:15:09,201 --> 00:15:12,667
the police were certain
it was a natural death.
322
00:15:12,701 --> 00:15:15,133
No question
in-in their mind.
323
00:15:15,167 --> 00:15:16,567
[sniffling]
324
00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:19,068
What happened later, apparently,
325
00:15:19,101 --> 00:15:21,500
is that the, uh...
326
00:15:21,534 --> 00:15:24,101
they did an autopsy.
327
00:15:24,134 --> 00:15:25,901
They did it in about four hours,
328
00:15:25,934 --> 00:15:27,068
which, at least, I've been told,
329
00:15:27,101 --> 00:15:31,202
is really not long enough
for a, a thorough autopsy.
330
00:15:31,235 --> 00:15:35,268
And I judge the first thing they found
that was really suspicious, they stopped,
331
00:15:35,301 --> 00:15:37,435
so the police came out here again,
332
00:15:37,468 --> 00:15:39,901
and took all three brothers
down to the barracks
333
00:15:39,934 --> 00:15:42,567
and questioned them,
and held Delbert,
334
00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:43,901
who's confessed.
335
00:15:43,934 --> 00:15:45,401
[dogs barking]
336
00:15:45,435 --> 00:15:46,901
[Interviewer] What happened
that night that they were af--
337
00:15:46,934 --> 00:15:50,101
all those men in uniforms
were asking you questions?
338
00:15:50,134 --> 00:15:51,534
What happened that night?
339
00:15:51,567 --> 00:15:52,867
Huh?
340
00:15:52,901 --> 00:15:54,667
The night all those men
were asking you questions,
341
00:15:54,701 --> 00:15:55,900
what happened that night?
342
00:15:57,368 --> 00:15:59,101
You said you were in,
in with the police,
343
00:15:59,134 --> 00:16:00,766
what happened that night?
344
00:16:01,967 --> 00:16:04,100
What kind of questions
did they ask you?
345
00:16:06,268 --> 00:16:08,934
Well, they wanted to know
if you heard any arguments,
346
00:16:08,967 --> 00:16:11,134
any noise,
347
00:16:11,167 --> 00:16:12,967
and they wanted to know
if we heard any
348
00:16:13,001 --> 00:16:16,301
guns or rifles
or anything go off.
349
00:16:16,334 --> 00:16:17,767
I told them, "No."
350
00:16:17,800 --> 00:16:20,234
Do you think Delbert killed Bill?
351
00:16:20,268 --> 00:16:22,433
That's what they figured, but...
352
00:16:23,467 --> 00:16:24,734
don't nobody believe it.
353
00:16:24,767 --> 00:16:25,867
Just ain't nothing to it.
354
00:16:26,934 --> 00:16:31,133
[stammering]
But everybody I talk to tells it.
355
00:16:32,501 --> 00:16:34,800
What else, what else
did they ask you that night?
356
00:16:34,834 --> 00:16:36,767
Did they make you sign something?
357
00:16:38,401 --> 00:16:40,067
Did you have to sign a paper?
358
00:16:40,101 --> 00:16:42,034
Just your name.
359
00:16:42,067 --> 00:16:44,101
I wouldn't sign nothin',
but just my name.
360
00:16:44,134 --> 00:16:45,200
They asked you to sign your name?
361
00:16:45,233 --> 00:16:46,034
Yep.
362
00:16:46,067 --> 00:16:47,800
Did you read what you signed?
363
00:16:49,834 --> 00:16:51,767
Yes... it was...
364
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:54,400
'bout, 'bout the murder
and stuff.
365
00:16:56,234 --> 00:16:58,101
Brother Bill, yeah, that's...
366
00:16:58,134 --> 00:16:59,301
They had that on there.
367
00:16:59,334 --> 00:17:01,700
[Delbert]
You didn't read no papers down there.
368
00:17:01,734 --> 00:17:03,101
Not right out loud.
369
00:17:03,134 --> 00:17:04,867
One cop did.
370
00:17:04,901 --> 00:17:05,967
He says,
"There anything to it?"
371
00:17:06,001 --> 00:17:07,700
I said, "No."
372
00:17:07,734 --> 00:17:09,401
Delbert, can Roscoe read?
373
00:17:09,434 --> 00:17:11,234
Not very good, I don't think.
374
00:17:11,268 --> 00:17:12,533
I don't think he read it.
375
00:17:13,434 --> 00:17:17,101
Oh, yeah.
They was awful quizzy, but...
376
00:17:17,134 --> 00:17:18,800
I didn't know nothing about it.
377
00:17:19,768 --> 00:17:21,734
What do you think's
gonna happen now?
378
00:17:24,234 --> 00:17:26,400
Well, they figured
Delbert killed him.
379
00:17:28,301 --> 00:17:30,400
There was nothin' to it.
380
00:17:30,433 --> 00:17:31,667
Not true?
381
00:17:33,667 --> 00:17:35,834
No, not true.
382
00:17:35,867 --> 00:17:37,333
It's not true.
383
00:17:40,634 --> 00:17:43,433
Just as I said, and always will,
384
00:17:43,467 --> 00:17:45,100
he went on his own.
385
00:17:48,935 --> 00:17:51,801
[Captain Loszynski] After, uh,
doing the preliminary investigation,
386
00:17:51,835 --> 00:17:55,368
which was in the early
morning hours of June sixth,
387
00:17:55,401 --> 00:17:59,635
uh, I received a phone call
at approximately 5:30 PM
388
00:17:59,668 --> 00:18:02,934
from the Medical Examiner's
office in Syracuse
389
00:18:02,967 --> 00:18:05,101
regarding the cause
and manner of death
390
00:18:05,134 --> 00:18:06,934
of William Ward.
391
00:18:06,967 --> 00:18:10,035
Uh, the call was from
Doctor Germaniuk,
392
00:18:10,068 --> 00:18:14,234
in which he explained that he had
discovered certain medical evidence
393
00:18:14,268 --> 00:18:18,701
which suggest that the death
was of suspicious origin,
394
00:18:18,735 --> 00:18:22,401
and that we should proceed
with a investigation, uh,
395
00:18:22,434 --> 00:18:24,734
regarding the circumstances
396
00:18:24,767 --> 00:18:28,134
uh, of William Ward's, uh, death.
397
00:18:28,167 --> 00:18:30,467
[dog barking in distance]
398
00:18:30,500 --> 00:18:33,800
[ominous music ♪]
399
00:18:37,035 --> 00:18:39,400
[District Attorney] You telling us you told
the truth to this jury today?
400
00:18:39,433 --> 00:18:41,101
[Delbert]
Yes.
401
00:18:41,134 --> 00:18:43,467
I'm telling you,
I told the truth.
402
00:18:43,500 --> 00:18:45,901
You telling us...
403
00:18:45,934 --> 00:18:47,067
that you didn't kill
your brother?
404
00:18:47,101 --> 00:18:48,133
I didn't kill him.
405
00:18:49,501 --> 00:18:51,700
Sir, in your statement,
you admit to killing your brother.
406
00:18:51,734 --> 00:18:52,867
I know I did,
407
00:18:52,901 --> 00:18:54,368
but I didn't know
what I was saying.
408
00:18:54,401 --> 00:18:57,568
Sir, this was your best friend,
409
00:18:57,601 --> 00:19:00,034
and you told the police that
night that you killed him.
410
00:19:00,067 --> 00:19:02,301
Yes, I told the police that,
that night.
411
00:19:02,334 --> 00:19:04,201
That was the truth that night
when you told them?
412
00:19:04,234 --> 00:19:05,901
No, 'cause it
wasn't really the truth
413
00:19:05,934 --> 00:19:07,601
'cause I didn't know
what I was sayin'.
414
00:19:07,635 --> 00:19:09,634
You know the difference
between a truth and a lie,
415
00:19:09,667 --> 00:19:10,700
don't you?
416
00:19:11,934 --> 00:19:13,834
Maybe, maybe not.
417
00:19:14,667 --> 00:19:18,267
[wooden leg squeaking]
418
00:19:38,601 --> 00:19:40,634
There's a lot of history
in this place.
419
00:19:46,167 --> 00:19:49,300
I seen some of the kids
I grew up with on my way in.
420
00:19:55,067 --> 00:19:56,800
[Interviewer]
Do you know where it is?
421
00:19:56,834 --> 00:19:58,567
No, not for sure.
422
00:19:59,801 --> 00:20:02,434
It's, it's a wooden one,
though, right?
423
00:20:02,467 --> 00:20:04,201
We heard it's a wooden heart.
424
00:20:04,234 --> 00:20:06,233
[birds chirping]
425
00:20:09,634 --> 00:20:13,233
[wooden leg squeaking]
426
00:20:15,968 --> 00:20:18,266
Christ, there's a lot
of people here I know.
427
00:20:20,967 --> 00:20:23,034
That one right there must be it.
428
00:20:30,034 --> 00:20:31,267
People shouldn't
be treated that way
429
00:20:31,301 --> 00:20:32,734
just 'cause they're stupid.
430
00:20:32,768 --> 00:20:34,935
Not really stupid, uneducated.
431
00:20:34,968 --> 00:20:36,901
Now, any investigator
in his right mind,
432
00:20:36,935 --> 00:20:39,934
when they started
interrogating these boys
433
00:20:39,967 --> 00:20:41,201
shoulda known
434
00:20:42,267 --> 00:20:45,068
that they didn't have the
schoolin' and the stuff
435
00:20:45,101 --> 00:20:48,667
to enable them to do anything
without an attorney.
436
00:20:48,700 --> 00:20:49,967
Shoulda known it.
437
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:52,567
They're intelligent people,
438
00:20:53,701 --> 00:20:57,267
but yet, they questioned them
all without an attorney,
439
00:20:57,301 --> 00:20:59,568
and Delbert, to this day,
don't know what the hell
440
00:20:59,601 --> 00:21:01,233
"to waive his rights" means.
441
00:21:03,568 --> 00:21:05,100
It's just some words to him.
442
00:21:05,134 --> 00:21:06,568
I said,
"What did you waive Delbert?"
443
00:21:06,601 --> 00:21:07,734
I ask him straight out.
444
00:21:07,768 --> 00:21:09,434
I said, "when you did that?"
445
00:21:09,467 --> 00:21:10,767
"I don't know."
446
00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,768
That's his answer.
447
00:21:12,801 --> 00:21:14,568
I asked him again last week,
I says,
448
00:21:14,601 --> 00:21:16,434
"What did you waive
when you waived your rights?"
449
00:21:16,467 --> 00:21:17,867
He still don't know.
450
00:21:19,067 --> 00:21:20,601
He waived his rights,
but he don't know
451
00:21:20,634 --> 00:21:22,334
what the hell he waived.
452
00:21:22,367 --> 00:21:24,201
That might've been somebody
walkin' down the street
453
00:21:24,234 --> 00:21:26,067
he was wavin' at.
454
00:21:26,100 --> 00:21:27,901
That's the truth.
455
00:21:27,935 --> 00:21:30,201
I mean,
it's foolish as it sounds,
456
00:21:30,234 --> 00:21:32,167
it's-it's
the God's honest truth.
457
00:21:33,134 --> 00:21:36,668
So, how can you charge
somebody like that?
458
00:21:36,701 --> 00:21:38,601
How could you took the
statement to begin with
459
00:21:38,634 --> 00:21:41,334
from him like that without
having a lawyer present?
460
00:21:41,367 --> 00:21:42,701
The confession of Delbert,
461
00:21:42,734 --> 00:21:45,601
uh, which was obtained here
at the barracks,
462
00:21:45,634 --> 00:21:49,068
um, consisted upon, or
consisted of, uh,
463
00:21:49,101 --> 00:21:51,867
Delbert telling
State Police investigators
464
00:21:51,900 --> 00:21:53,901
that, uh...
465
00:21:53,935 --> 00:21:57,834
uh, he had thought about,
um, killing William,
466
00:21:57,868 --> 00:22:01,768
uh, because of, uh, the
suffering that he had, uh,
467
00:22:01,801 --> 00:22:03,867
observed Wi-William
going through
468
00:22:03,900 --> 00:22:05,734
over the last several months,
469
00:22:05,768 --> 00:22:09,935
uh, and he focused in
on extreme headaches
470
00:22:09,968 --> 00:22:12,833
and stomach problems, and he
had a problem with his foot
471
00:22:12,867 --> 00:22:15,167
that the cow had stepped on,
472
00:22:15,201 --> 00:22:18,367
and he based, basically,
his-his criminal conduct,
473
00:22:18,401 --> 00:22:19,733
in killing William,
474
00:22:19,767 --> 00:22:21,734
on the fact that, uh,
475
00:22:21,768 --> 00:22:23,934
he felt William
was going through, uh,
476
00:22:23,967 --> 00:22:25,934
an extreme amount of pain,
477
00:22:25,967 --> 00:22:29,701
and that, uh, he felt that, uh,
478
00:22:29,734 --> 00:22:31,867
he would kill his brother for
these reasons.
479
00:22:31,900 --> 00:22:34,701
[wind blowing]
480
00:22:34,734 --> 00:22:37,667
[Interviewer]
Roscoe, what's your best memory of Bill?
481
00:22:37,700 --> 00:22:38,733
Roscoe?
482
00:22:38,767 --> 00:22:39,734
Huh?
483
00:22:39,768 --> 00:22:41,767
What's your best memory of Bill?
484
00:22:41,800 --> 00:22:42,734
Huh?
485
00:22:42,768 --> 00:22:44,934
What's your best memory of Bill?
486
00:22:47,533 --> 00:22:49,267
Best band?
487
00:22:49,301 --> 00:22:50,534
[laughing]
488
00:22:50,568 --> 00:22:51,534
I didn't hear ya, now.
489
00:22:51,568 --> 00:22:52,734
[Delbert]
He don't hear you.
490
00:22:52,768 --> 00:22:54,267
[Lyman]
He can't hear nothing.
491
00:22:54,301 --> 00:22:56,034
Huh?
492
00:22:56,067 --> 00:22:57,067
[Interviewer]
I-I didn't understand.
493
00:22:57,100 --> 00:22:58,400
What was your best memory of him?
494
00:22:58,433 --> 00:22:59,234
Huh?
495
00:22:59,267 --> 00:22:59,833
What's your...
496
00:23:01,068 --> 00:23:03,367
[laughing]
It's okay if you're on the film, Joe.
497
00:23:03,401 --> 00:23:04,734
[Interviewer, Joe]
I-I don't wanna be in the film.
498
00:23:04,768 --> 00:23:06,668
I'm gonna stay here,
and you stay here, okay?
499
00:23:06,701 --> 00:23:08,867
And just tell me what your
best memory of Bill is.
500
00:23:08,900 --> 00:23:10,067
The best memory?
501
00:23:10,100 --> 00:23:11,900
Well, we went to Oneida.
502
00:23:12,568 --> 00:23:14,000
We got our groceries.
503
00:23:15,068 --> 00:23:18,300
He got his stuff he wanted
for to fix his water.
504
00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:22,234
Done all his chores,
505
00:23:22,267 --> 00:23:24,668
had supper,
506
00:23:24,701 --> 00:23:25,935
and went to bed about,
507
00:23:25,968 --> 00:23:29,401
about nine o'clock,
wasn't it, Delbert?
508
00:23:29,434 --> 00:23:31,034
Around nine o'clock
or a little after,
509
00:23:31,067 --> 00:23:33,234
[metal jangling]
510
00:23:33,267 --> 00:23:35,034
and I thought I was gonna
see him the next morning,
511
00:23:35,067 --> 00:23:36,067
and I didn't.
512
00:23:38,734 --> 00:23:39,934
How'd you feel about that?
513
00:23:39,967 --> 00:23:41,233
Bad.
514
00:23:42,700 --> 00:23:44,466
'Cause he's gone.
515
00:23:46,467 --> 00:23:47,701
If somebody put hands,
516
00:23:47,734 --> 00:23:49,035
put their hands over his mouth,
517
00:23:49,068 --> 00:23:51,233
he'd have to have marks
on him wouldn't he?
518
00:23:54,901 --> 00:23:56,900
And he didn't have
no marks on him.
519
00:23:56,934 --> 00:23:58,767
[crickets chirping]
520
00:24:00,135 --> 00:24:02,034
[Interviewer] They said there was
a pillow over his face.
521
00:24:02,067 --> 00:24:03,768
Well, they put that over there.
522
00:24:03,801 --> 00:24:05,434
Who put the pillow over him?
523
00:24:05,467 --> 00:24:07,201
The police, I think.
524
00:24:07,234 --> 00:24:08,434
[cat mewing]
525
00:24:08,667 --> 00:24:10,034
'Cause the...
526
00:24:10,068 --> 00:24:12,801
the first time I,
they show me his pictures,
527
00:24:12,834 --> 00:24:16,201
he laid just the way I found
him, with nothing over him.
528
00:24:16,235 --> 00:24:19,534
Then they took me down there
to the courthouse again,
529
00:24:19,567 --> 00:24:21,134
and that's when they
showed him with a...
530
00:24:21,167 --> 00:24:23,401
pillow over, over his face.
531
00:24:25,368 --> 00:24:28,034
Why would the police put
a pillow over Bill's face?
532
00:24:28,068 --> 00:24:31,334
Well, 'cause they want
this right here.
533
00:24:36,100 --> 00:24:37,134
Right here.
534
00:24:38,100 --> 00:24:39,767
They want this land.
535
00:24:40,834 --> 00:24:43,968
We know, for a fact, that
two of the State Troopers
536
00:24:44,001 --> 00:24:46,601
who interviewed
a neighbor of Delbert's,
537
00:24:46,634 --> 00:24:48,701
in addition
to asking about the case,
538
00:24:48,734 --> 00:24:51,567
asked if the neighbor was
willing to sell his property.
539
00:24:51,601 --> 00:24:53,235
Now, you've gotta remember
540
00:24:53,268 --> 00:24:55,901
that we're talking about
an area in Madison County
541
00:24:55,934 --> 00:24:57,968
that's right on
the, the edge of becoming
542
00:24:58,001 --> 00:25:00,634
a very, very suburban type
of an area,
543
00:25:00,667 --> 00:25:03,300
so that these farms
a-are worth a lot of money
544
00:25:03,334 --> 00:25:04,800
to a developer.
545
00:25:04,833 --> 00:25:06,567
If it's true...
546
00:25:06,601 --> 00:25:08,568
it's one of the most
disgusting things
547
00:25:08,602 --> 00:25:12,601
that I've seen as a,
as an attorney in-in 13 or 14 years.
548
00:25:12,634 --> 00:25:16,701
To think that somebody, uh,
for purely monetary gain,
549
00:25:16,734 --> 00:25:21,934
would, uh, convince somebody
t-t-to write a confession,
550
00:25:21,968 --> 00:25:25,367
or even worse,
put words into his mouth.
551
00:25:25,401 --> 00:25:27,135
I cannot fathom
552
00:25:27,168 --> 00:25:30,901
that there would be any
reason whatsoever for anybody
553
00:25:30,934 --> 00:25:33,068
to want to have
acquired that land,
554
00:25:33,101 --> 00:25:37,268
other than another farmer
to use it as farm land.
555
00:25:37,301 --> 00:25:40,934
Uh, and to suggest that any
of the State Police officers
556
00:25:40,968 --> 00:25:43,101
involved in the investigation
557
00:25:43,135 --> 00:25:45,234
would even consider doing
something like that
558
00:25:45,267 --> 00:25:46,933
is just ludicrous.
559
00:25:46,967 --> 00:25:48,367
♪♪
560
00:25:58,201 --> 00:26:00,200
[Jerry Reid]
If anybody ever grew up on a farm,
561
00:26:00,234 --> 00:26:02,368
when a cow has a calf,
562
00:26:02,402 --> 00:26:06,135
a lot of times, they get
paralyzed in their backsides,
563
00:26:06,168 --> 00:26:08,267
and they have trouble gettin' up,
564
00:26:08,300 --> 00:26:09,968
and if you don't make 'em get up,
565
00:26:10,001 --> 00:26:13,901
they can't clean themselves
of afterbirth.
566
00:26:13,934 --> 00:26:15,901
So, it's a very common practice
567
00:26:15,934 --> 00:26:19,067
amongst any and all farmers,
568
00:26:20,402 --> 00:26:23,401
to hold the nostrils and the mouth
of a cow that's down,
569
00:26:23,434 --> 00:26:24,967
and once she gets
short of breath,
570
00:26:25,000 --> 00:26:26,200
she'll just jump right up,
571
00:26:26,234 --> 00:26:27,700
and she'll be healthy as ever.
572
00:26:29,001 --> 00:26:31,566
I still feel, from the beginning,
573
00:26:32,901 --> 00:26:35,101
that that's all
that Delbert was trying to do
574
00:26:35,135 --> 00:26:37,534
was to treat his brother
like a cow
575
00:26:37,567 --> 00:26:38,833
because that's all he knew.
576
00:26:40,001 --> 00:26:42,734
He was just trying to make
him get up and go, I think.
577
00:26:42,768 --> 00:26:47,768
I have no qualms in my mind,
he died in his sleep.
578
00:26:47,801 --> 00:26:50,534
For these guys, time stopped...
579
00:26:50,567 --> 00:26:52,401
back in the days
when they were growing up.
580
00:26:52,434 --> 00:26:53,934
They were poor.
581
00:26:53,968 --> 00:26:57,901
Uh, if they had an animal
in pain...
582
00:26:57,934 --> 00:26:59,901
the animal, they wouldn't
let the animal suffer,
583
00:26:59,934 --> 00:27:01,201
they'd put it out of its misery.
584
00:27:01,235 --> 00:27:03,633
That's the type of thing,
that's the way they think,
585
00:27:03,666 --> 00:27:04,801
and...
586
00:27:04,834 --> 00:27:07,401
for two brothers who loved
each other like they did,
587
00:27:07,434 --> 00:27:08,533
to...
588
00:27:09,334 --> 00:27:11,634
for one to watch
the other in pain,
589
00:27:11,667 --> 00:27:15,034
day after day after day, uh...
590
00:27:15,068 --> 00:27:18,300
you know, it's very likely
that the man, you know,
591
00:27:18,334 --> 00:27:21,235
they agreed between
themselves, I'm sure,
592
00:27:21,268 --> 00:27:23,868
and Delbert didn't wanna see
him suffer anymore,
593
00:27:23,901 --> 00:27:25,067
and he took his life.
594
00:27:25,100 --> 00:27:26,500
♪♪
595
00:27:40,602 --> 00:27:41,801
[Interviewer]
You looking forward to tonight?
596
00:27:41,834 --> 00:27:42,834
[Roscoe]
Yeah.
597
00:27:42,867 --> 00:27:43,834
You gonna dance?
598
00:27:43,867 --> 00:27:45,133
I'm gonna dance.
Are you gonna dance?
599
00:27:45,167 --> 00:27:46,200
Yeah.
600
00:27:46,233 --> 00:27:47,400
Did you get a shave today?
601
00:27:47,434 --> 00:27:48,334
Who, me?
602
00:27:48,367 --> 00:27:50,133
Yeah.
I cut 'em off.
603
00:27:50,167 --> 00:27:51,300
Why?
604
00:27:51,334 --> 00:27:52,601
For tonight.
605
00:27:53,300 --> 00:27:55,100
They got a little too long.
606
00:27:55,133 --> 00:27:56,133
What got too long?
607
00:27:56,167 --> 00:27:57,434
Whiskers.
608
00:27:57,467 --> 00:27:58,567
So, you cut 'em off?
609
00:27:58,601 --> 00:27:59,634
I did.
610
00:27:59,667 --> 00:28:01,233
I didn't get 'em all, but I got,
611
00:28:01,267 --> 00:28:02,767
I got the most of 'em.
612
00:28:02,801 --> 00:28:03,967
♪♪
613
00:28:12,534 --> 00:28:13,866
[Roscoe]
Hi!
614
00:28:14,634 --> 00:28:16,234
[Woman]
You're Lyman.
615
00:28:16,268 --> 00:28:17,934
Lyman's right out there,
he's comin'.
616
00:28:17,968 --> 00:28:19,334
- Oh, you're Roscoe.
- Right.
617
00:28:19,367 --> 00:28:20,767
- Want me to help ya?
- No.
618
00:28:20,801 --> 00:28:21,834
Oh, I will.
619
00:28:21,867 --> 00:28:23,167
I should know
all these boys by now.
620
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:24,901
I know it, I know it.
621
00:28:24,934 --> 00:28:26,167
We're cousins.
622
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:27,500
That's right.
623
00:28:27,534 --> 00:28:29,200
Oh, but you don't cry.
624
00:28:33,635 --> 00:28:35,500
[Interviewer]
What's for, what's for dinner?
625
00:28:35,534 --> 00:28:37,601
Well, we got
a little bit of everything,
626
00:28:37,634 --> 00:28:38,701
whatever you wish.
627
00:28:38,734 --> 00:28:40,801
Baked beans,
scalloped potatoes...
628
00:28:40,834 --> 00:28:42,934
Fruit salad, macaroni salad.
629
00:28:42,968 --> 00:28:45,701
I'll tell you something
I bet you've never had,
630
00:28:45,734 --> 00:28:48,233
barbecued venison
in the crock pot.
631
00:28:48,267 --> 00:28:49,500
Barbecued venison?
632
00:28:49,534 --> 00:28:50,834
Yeah.
633
00:28:50,867 --> 00:28:53,701
[overlapping chatter]
634
00:28:53,734 --> 00:28:55,467
[Reporter]
Delbert, laugh!
635
00:28:55,500 --> 00:28:57,500
[laughing]
- Yep.
636
00:28:59,134 --> 00:29:01,068
What do you think
of this whole, uh,
637
00:29:01,101 --> 00:29:03,467
this whole party
put together for you?
638
00:29:03,500 --> 00:29:04,734
I think it's good.
639
00:29:04,767 --> 00:29:06,301
Why do you think
they're doing all this?
640
00:29:06,335 --> 00:29:08,301
To help me,
they're all my good friends.
641
00:29:08,335 --> 00:29:10,901
All these people,
obviously, are behind you
642
00:29:10,934 --> 00:29:12,233
in saying
you didn't kill your brother.
643
00:29:12,267 --> 00:29:13,767
That's right, I didn't.
644
00:29:13,801 --> 00:29:14,967
You didn't.
645
00:29:16,001 --> 00:29:17,100
A lot of people are saying,
if you did...
646
00:29:19,268 --> 00:29:21,301
I mean, a lot of people who
are supporting you
647
00:29:21,335 --> 00:29:23,134
are saying, well, they don't
know if you did or didn't,
648
00:29:23,168 --> 00:29:24,567
but if you did,
it was a mercy killing.
649
00:29:24,601 --> 00:29:26,233
Any response to that?
650
00:29:26,267 --> 00:29:28,001
I don't think much about it.
651
00:29:28,034 --> 00:29:29,634
We believe this man is innocent,
652
00:29:29,667 --> 00:29:31,500
and that's why, uh,
we're at this party.
653
00:29:32,701 --> 00:29:34,267
We believed it right
from the very beginning,
654
00:29:35,634 --> 00:29:37,267
and we always will believe it.
655
00:29:37,300 --> 00:29:38,534
[Interviewer]
Why?
656
00:29:40,334 --> 00:29:42,133
This is not the type of man
657
00:29:43,201 --> 00:29:46,467
to commit such a,
a vicious crime.
658
00:29:46,500 --> 00:29:49,734
He, he's just not built that way.
659
00:29:49,767 --> 00:29:52,933
He's a, an easy going,
lovable individual,
660
00:29:54,168 --> 00:29:57,801
and I sincerely believe that
this man will be acquitted,
661
00:29:57,834 --> 00:30:00,133
and my wife
believes the same thing.
662
00:30:00,167 --> 00:30:01,401
Did-Did you know him?
663
00:30:01,435 --> 00:30:04,800
Do I know him?
Well, my, uh, my nephew...
664
00:30:05,801 --> 00:30:10,068
is... that's-that's-that would
be his uncle,
665
00:30:10,101 --> 00:30:12,067
and I've met him before,
666
00:30:12,100 --> 00:30:13,368
a few times,
667
00:30:13,401 --> 00:30:18,268
and he's a very, very fine
talking, uh, individual,
668
00:30:18,301 --> 00:30:22,467
who never should've been
arrested at no time.
669
00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:23,467
Okay.
670
00:30:23,500 --> 00:30:26,034
Coming in three, two...
671
00:30:26,068 --> 00:30:28,001
A murder trial
is nothing that unusual
672
00:30:28,034 --> 00:30:29,401
for central New York.
673
00:30:29,435 --> 00:30:32,068
What is unusual here is
the national media attention
674
00:30:32,101 --> 00:30:34,001
this is getting,
and the crowds of people
675
00:30:34,034 --> 00:30:37,133
who have come out to support
the accused killer.
676
00:30:38,634 --> 00:30:40,001
One more.
677
00:30:40,034 --> 00:30:43,468
A murder case is nothing that
unusual for central New York.
678
00:30:43,501 --> 00:30:46,068
What is unusual here is
the national media attention
679
00:30:46,101 --> 00:30:48,168
this is getting,
and the crowds of people
680
00:30:48,201 --> 00:30:50,800
who have come out to support
the accused killer.
681
00:30:53,634 --> 00:30:56,767
[country music playing ♪]
682
00:30:56,801 --> 00:31:00,467
[people whooping]
683
00:31:22,200 --> 00:31:23,734
Two... one...
684
00:31:23,767 --> 00:31:24,934
Delbert Ward will return
685
00:31:24,968 --> 00:31:26,968
to Madison County Courthouse
next week,
686
00:31:27,001 --> 00:31:28,400
so attorneys on both sides
687
00:31:28,434 --> 00:31:30,101
can present evidence
to the judge.
688
00:31:30,134 --> 00:31:31,401
Friends here seem optimistic,
689
00:31:31,435 --> 00:31:33,467
but they say it's frustrating
to know that,
690
00:31:33,500 --> 00:31:34,667
despite all their efforts,
691
00:31:34,701 --> 00:31:37,334
all they can really do
is sit and wait.
692
00:31:37,367 --> 00:31:39,167
Allison Alexander, News Center.
693
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,434
[party chatter]
694
00:31:41,467 --> 00:31:42,866
♪♪
695
00:32:09,168 --> 00:32:12,601
I really think that most people
696
00:32:12,634 --> 00:32:15,567
thought that they
minded their own business.
697
00:32:15,601 --> 00:32:17,601
They were different.
698
00:32:17,634 --> 00:32:19,734
As long as they
didn't step on your feet,
699
00:32:19,767 --> 00:32:21,168
why the hell were you
gonna step on theirs?
700
00:32:21,201 --> 00:32:24,801
Well now, like, going in down
to the confections store,
701
00:32:24,834 --> 00:32:25,733
or whatever to eat,
702
00:32:26,867 --> 00:32:31,734
I kind of hate to eat after
they did, wouldn't you?
703
00:32:31,767 --> 00:32:33,767
You wouldn't, you know...
- You know, wouldn't...
704
00:32:33,801 --> 00:32:35,667
You wouldn't go right down
and plunk your ass down
705
00:32:35,701 --> 00:32:37,367
on the same table that they
were sitting at.
706
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:38,602
Same chair...
707
00:32:38,635 --> 00:32:42,734
You'd move over a little bit,
'cause hell, uh, the smell.
708
00:32:42,767 --> 00:32:43,934
Might get the best of ya.
709
00:32:43,968 --> 00:32:46,301
You know they sweat...
- [Mrs. Geisler laughing]
710
00:32:46,335 --> 00:32:48,934
They worked and, hell, I don't think
they changed their clothes
711
00:32:48,968 --> 00:32:50,767
in maybe six months,
712
00:32:50,801 --> 00:32:52,034
unless they...
- No.
713
00:32:52,068 --> 00:32:53,934
...went to a funeral
or something like that.
714
00:32:53,968 --> 00:32:55,634
But they went, uh...
715
00:32:55,667 --> 00:32:56,968
the girls' weddings.
- Yeah.
716
00:32:57,001 --> 00:32:58,068
And then they were dressed up.
- Yeah.
717
00:32:58,101 --> 00:32:59,667
[Interviewer]
And yet, you helped them.
718
00:32:59,901 --> 00:33:02,967
That's right,
and I'd, I'd help 'em again.
719
00:33:03,001 --> 00:33:04,501
Yeah, they went to the, to
the girls' weddings,
720
00:33:04,535 --> 00:33:07,468
Hell, they're a part of this damn community.
- 'cause we did, too.
721
00:33:07,501 --> 00:33:09,467
We've never had a murder here,
722
00:33:09,500 --> 00:33:11,334
as I ever remember.
723
00:33:11,368 --> 00:33:13,767
There's always been
this antagonism
724
00:33:13,801 --> 00:33:17,301
between the big city
a-and the rural areas.
725
00:33:17,334 --> 00:33:20,768
You know, if, if you
are born in the rural area
726
00:33:20,802 --> 00:33:23,267
and make it good,
it must mean you go to the city
727
00:33:23,300 --> 00:33:25,667
and make it good.
728
00:33:25,700 --> 00:33:27,168
It's not, you go down the road
729
00:33:27,201 --> 00:33:28,201
and start your own business.
730
00:33:28,234 --> 00:33:31,035
It's, you go to the city
and make it big.
731
00:33:31,068 --> 00:33:36,300
And city people, I think, are inclined
to look at country people as bumpkins.
732
00:33:36,333 --> 00:33:37,334
As, uh...
733
00:33:37,368 --> 00:33:40,134
probably not terribly bright,
734
00:33:40,168 --> 00:33:42,934
and maybe, not awfully
strongly moti--motivated,
735
00:33:42,967 --> 00:33:45,501
and nothing can be further
from the truth if you see,
736
00:33:45,535 --> 00:33:47,567
see the way some of
these farmers work,
737
00:33:49,201 --> 00:33:52,934
and I suspect the city stereotype
738
00:33:52,967 --> 00:33:55,667
is probably within the heads
of the BCI
739
00:33:55,700 --> 00:33:57,101
and the District Attorney,
740
00:33:57,134 --> 00:33:58,301
and they probably don't know it,
741
00:33:58,334 --> 00:34:01,001
it's just, it's part of
the culture that you think
742
00:34:01,034 --> 00:34:03,433
rural area is that way, you see,
743
00:34:03,467 --> 00:34:05,367
and I-I think...
744
00:34:07,634 --> 00:34:09,300
I think, maybe...
745
00:34:09,333 --> 00:34:10,535
that...
746
00:34:10,568 --> 00:34:16,168
part of the drawing together
of Munnsville behind Delbert
747
00:34:16,201 --> 00:34:19,101
is that the "We against Them,"
748
00:34:19,134 --> 00:34:22,701
them being the, in quotes,
"Big City DA,"
749
00:34:22,735 --> 00:34:25,534
trying to get poor Delbert
up there on the hills.
750
00:34:25,567 --> 00:34:27,000
♪♪
751
00:34:40,634 --> 00:34:42,468
[car honking]
752
00:34:42,501 --> 00:34:44,701
[Thurston]
The boys never got any attention before.
753
00:34:44,735 --> 00:34:48,101
When they had them dances
and stuff for him down here
754
00:34:48,134 --> 00:34:50,433
and put on the benefits,
755
00:34:50,467 --> 00:34:52,133
to Delbert, that was a party.
756
00:34:53,468 --> 00:34:54,867
He didn't realize, I don't think,
757
00:34:54,901 --> 00:34:57,301
that we was trying to raise
money for his defense
758
00:34:57,334 --> 00:34:58,767
so he wouldn't go to prison.
759
00:34:58,801 --> 00:35:02,034
Nobody'd ever give
the Ward boys a party.
760
00:35:02,067 --> 00:35:03,267
Not ever in their life.
761
00:35:04,434 --> 00:35:07,101
So, here, all of a sudden,
is all these goddamn people
762
00:35:07,134 --> 00:35:09,001
crowded around
and giving him a big party
763
00:35:09,034 --> 00:35:11,300
and Delbert's dancing,
the first time in his life.
764
00:35:11,333 --> 00:35:12,268
[cow mooing]
765
00:35:12,301 --> 00:35:13,934
People coming up
and asking him to dance,
766
00:35:13,967 --> 00:35:15,501
and hell, they wouldn't have
danced with him before,
767
00:35:15,535 --> 00:35:17,767
for Christ's sakes,
if you had paid 'em to.
768
00:35:17,801 --> 00:35:20,867
From what it appears,
uh, in the area,
769
00:35:20,901 --> 00:35:23,334
the Wards were kind of
outcast people.
770
00:35:23,368 --> 00:35:25,001
You know, they weren't
generally accepted
771
00:35:25,034 --> 00:35:26,201
down there,
772
00:35:26,234 --> 00:35:29,501
and it's one thing for...
773
00:35:29,535 --> 00:35:33,334
the people who live there to
consider somebody an outcast,
774
00:35:33,368 --> 00:35:35,301
but he was still their outcast.
775
00:35:35,334 --> 00:35:37,934
You know, if it
comes up to somebody else
776
00:35:37,967 --> 00:35:41,834
looking into the, the lifestyles
of people down there
777
00:35:41,867 --> 00:35:44,368
and accusing them
of something, it's...
778
00:35:44,401 --> 00:35:46,667
I find it's natural,
in some of these rural areas,
779
00:35:46,700 --> 00:35:48,434
that people stick together.
780
00:35:48,468 --> 00:35:51,600
They stick by their own,
the people in the area.
781
00:35:51,634 --> 00:35:54,634
And that they went to,
went to back him
782
00:35:54,667 --> 00:35:56,634
as being an underdog,
783
00:35:56,667 --> 00:36:00,134
not caring really,
in my estimation,
784
00:36:00,168 --> 00:36:02,700
whether he was right
or wrong, at that point.
785
00:36:02,734 --> 00:36:04,634
He was just one of theirs.
786
00:36:04,867 --> 00:36:06,968
Delbert told me...
787
00:36:07,002 --> 00:36:10,967
that they were asking him all
kinds of questions,
788
00:36:11,001 --> 00:36:13,034
and he was saying yes and no,
789
00:36:13,067 --> 00:36:14,334
and he was getting tired,
790
00:36:14,368 --> 00:36:16,501
and one of the troopers
said to him,
791
00:36:16,534 --> 00:36:19,533
"Delbert, if you sign this paper right here,
I'll take you home.
792
00:36:19,567 --> 00:36:21,701
I see you're tired."
793
00:36:21,735 --> 00:36:23,368
And Delbert said,
"I signed the papers,
794
00:36:23,401 --> 00:36:26,334
and he slapped the handcuffs
right on me.
795
00:36:26,368 --> 00:36:28,567
Took me to the lockup."
796
00:36:32,767 --> 00:36:34,633
Makes you wonder, don't it?
797
00:36:34,667 --> 00:36:37,033
[dogs barking]
798
00:36:41,501 --> 00:36:43,367
The first time
I was ever in jail.
799
00:36:44,667 --> 00:36:46,500
I hope it's the last time.
800
00:36:47,368 --> 00:36:49,002
Don't have no room,
801
00:36:49,035 --> 00:36:54,301
wasn't much wider than from
here over to where you stand.
802
00:36:54,334 --> 00:36:56,034
You walk out in front
of your cell,
803
00:36:56,067 --> 00:36:58,201
your cell was only
just a little one.
804
00:36:58,234 --> 00:36:59,835
Concrete floor,
- [cats mewing]
805
00:36:59,868 --> 00:37:02,301
and then the little room
you had to walk in,
806
00:37:02,334 --> 00:37:04,200
had floor tile on it.
807
00:37:05,267 --> 00:37:07,967
Only, only place you had
to sit was just like this,
808
00:37:08,001 --> 00:37:10,067
back right up,
sit right on the concrete,
809
00:37:10,101 --> 00:37:11,834
and then lean right up
against the blocks.
810
00:37:13,168 --> 00:37:14,967
[Interviewer] Were you ever in a place
like that before?
811
00:37:15,001 --> 00:37:16,867
No. Never.
812
00:37:18,400 --> 00:37:19,900
[spitting]
813
00:37:19,934 --> 00:37:21,500
Didn't you sign a confession?
814
00:37:21,533 --> 00:37:23,001
Yep.
815
00:37:23,034 --> 00:37:23,967
How come?
816
00:37:24,001 --> 00:37:25,034
'Cause I didn't know
what I was doing.
817
00:37:25,067 --> 00:37:27,600
I was nervous, and all shook up.
818
00:37:28,468 --> 00:37:30,167
What did they have you sign?
819
00:37:30,201 --> 00:37:33,900
Two or three papers, then had
to put your initials on 'em.
820
00:37:33,934 --> 00:37:35,034
Did you read the papers?
821
00:37:35,067 --> 00:37:36,900
I couldn't see them 'cause
I didn't have my glasses.
822
00:37:36,934 --> 00:37:38,001
Can you read?
823
00:37:38,034 --> 00:37:39,767
A little bit, not much.
824
00:37:41,267 --> 00:37:42,401
It wouldn't have done me no good
825
00:37:42,434 --> 00:37:43,501
if I did have the glasses
826
00:37:43,534 --> 00:37:46,501
'cause they,
they wasn't no good anyway.
827
00:37:46,534 --> 00:37:49,167
What'd they tell you
to get you to sign it?
828
00:37:49,201 --> 00:37:51,233
I don't know what they
did tell me now.
829
00:37:56,834 --> 00:37:58,067
Did they read it to you?
830
00:37:58,101 --> 00:37:59,667
Yes, they read it.
831
00:37:59,700 --> 00:38:00,868
Did you understand it?
832
00:38:00,901 --> 00:38:02,867
Some of it, I did,
and some of it, I didn't.
833
00:38:05,935 --> 00:38:08,234
Did they tell you you could
go home if you signed it?
834
00:38:08,267 --> 00:38:10,400
No, they didn't tell me
I could go home.
835
00:38:10,433 --> 00:38:12,167
What'd they say?
836
00:38:12,201 --> 00:38:14,200
Well, they said
it'd be easier on you.
837
00:38:16,501 --> 00:38:17,633
It would be easier, if what?
838
00:38:17,667 --> 00:38:18,734
On me.
839
00:38:20,234 --> 00:38:21,700
But it wasn't.
840
00:38:23,667 --> 00:38:25,233
I don't think.
841
00:38:25,834 --> 00:38:27,800
♪♪
842
00:38:28,468 --> 00:38:30,166
[dogs barking in distance]
843
00:38:37,035 --> 00:38:38,735
[Cognetti]
When we were in the Grand Jury,
844
00:38:38,768 --> 00:38:41,167
a photograph was,
uh, given to Delbert,
845
00:38:41,201 --> 00:38:42,668
and he was asked to identify it.
846
00:38:42,701 --> 00:38:44,800
It was a photograph of his,
of his brother
847
00:38:44,834 --> 00:38:46,401
lying prone on the bed.
848
00:38:46,434 --> 00:38:49,468
What was interesting
was that there was a pillow
849
00:38:49,501 --> 00:38:51,835
that appeared to be
over the face.
850
00:38:51,868 --> 00:38:55,667
Um, I don't know how or why
the photograph was offered.
851
00:38:55,700 --> 00:38:57,568
I would hope...
852
00:38:57,601 --> 00:38:59,568
for Mr. Cerio's sake,
that it wasn't offered
853
00:38:59,601 --> 00:39:03,034
to represent the body
as it was when it was found
854
00:39:03,067 --> 00:39:05,568
because, if it was,
that's not a true photograph.
855
00:39:05,601 --> 00:39:09,067
The... In fact, the body, when
it was found that morning
856
00:39:09,101 --> 00:39:12,567
by the first, uh,
first person in the bedroom,
857
00:39:12,600 --> 00:39:14,234
had no pillow near it.
858
00:39:14,267 --> 00:39:18,401
As far as any fabrication of
evidence, uh, regarding, uh,
859
00:39:18,434 --> 00:39:22,301
uh, putting a pillow over
William Ward's case,
860
00:39:22,334 --> 00:39:26,534
regarding taking photographs
of the scene, um...
861
00:39:26,568 --> 00:39:29,735
I would like to use the term
"outrageous," regarding that,
862
00:39:29,768 --> 00:39:32,534
because the State Police
is not in the business
863
00:39:32,568 --> 00:39:36,067
of, of fabricating any type
of physical evidence.
864
00:39:36,101 --> 00:39:38,401
Uh, we go on the merits
of the case,
865
00:39:38,434 --> 00:39:40,201
and if the merits of the case,
866
00:39:40,234 --> 00:39:42,334
uh, substantiate and suggest
867
00:39:42,368 --> 00:39:44,900
that there is criminal
culpability, then we proceed.
868
00:39:44,934 --> 00:39:47,101
If it doesn't,
we conclude our case,
869
00:39:47,134 --> 00:39:49,433
and we close it by investigation.
870
00:39:51,134 --> 00:39:52,368
[Interviewer]
So, Lyman...
871
00:39:52,402 --> 00:39:54,801
what were you telling me
about the women in town here?
872
00:39:54,834 --> 00:39:56,267
Oh, there's nice women in town.
873
00:39:56,301 --> 00:39:57,401
Yeah?
874
00:39:57,434 --> 00:39:59,668
There are.
I know every one of them in there.
875
00:39:59,701 --> 00:40:00,701
What do you think?
876
00:40:00,734 --> 00:40:01,800
Oh, there're nice women.
877
00:40:01,833 --> 00:40:02,700
Yeah?
878
00:40:02,733 --> 00:40:04,367
Yeah.
879
00:40:04,401 --> 00:40:06,567
They're-They're pretty good,
pretty good friends.
880
00:40:06,601 --> 00:40:08,000
- Yeah?
- Yep.
881
00:40:08,034 --> 00:40:09,668
Them women I know are gone now.
882
00:40:09,701 --> 00:40:11,634
Used to know.
- They ain't there anymore.
883
00:40:11,668 --> 00:40:13,100
Them young ones.
884
00:40:13,134 --> 00:40:15,134
You get married, you're gone!
885
00:40:15,167 --> 00:40:17,035
[Roscoe]
You get married, you're gone.
886
00:40:17,068 --> 00:40:20,034
Did you guys used to, you know,
have, like, girlfriends and...?
887
00:40:20,067 --> 00:40:21,701
Nah, I didn't have any.
- Nah.
888
00:40:21,734 --> 00:40:23,434
[Roscoe]
Lyman never wanted a girlfriend.
889
00:40:23,467 --> 00:40:24,933
Not like you,
I wouldn't have them around.
890
00:40:24,967 --> 00:40:26,135
[Roscoe] Me neither.
- Why?
891
00:40:26,168 --> 00:40:27,968
Oh, I just don't know, just
don't want them, that's all.
892
00:40:28,001 --> 00:40:29,833
Got to put that on her finger.
893
00:40:29,867 --> 00:40:31,067
Yeah.
894
00:40:33,367 --> 00:40:34,867
Ever thought of getting married?
895
00:40:34,900 --> 00:40:36,868
- No.
- Come on.
896
00:40:36,901 --> 00:40:38,701
No, sir, that's out of
my territory.
897
00:40:38,734 --> 00:40:42,301
I never, never thought of it,
and I wouldn't, I wouldn't.
898
00:40:42,334 --> 00:40:45,501
All the nice women you bring,
I wouldn't.
899
00:40:45,534 --> 00:40:47,200
Not me. No, sir.
900
00:40:49,001 --> 00:40:52,267
[Roscoe] My brother, Bill,
he didn't want no women either.
901
00:40:52,301 --> 00:40:54,833
Ike up there,
my cousin in the bus,
902
00:40:54,867 --> 00:40:56,500
he don't want no women.
903
00:40:58,934 --> 00:41:01,333
He said he'd rather live alone.
904
00:41:02,701 --> 00:41:09,301
Watch his, uh, his CB nights,
and watch his television.
905
00:41:09,334 --> 00:41:11,100
♪♪
906
00:41:24,135 --> 00:41:26,467
[Investigator Graham]
Lyman eventually told us that, uh,
907
00:41:26,501 --> 00:41:29,134
they had talked about
killing William
908
00:41:29,167 --> 00:41:30,801
a couple days prior to his death.
909
00:41:30,834 --> 00:41:32,100
That conversation took place
910
00:41:32,134 --> 00:41:34,534
out in front of their residence.
911
00:41:34,567 --> 00:41:36,867
In fact, Lyman said
it was under a big tree
912
00:41:36,900 --> 00:41:38,302
in front of their house,
913
00:41:38,335 --> 00:41:43,467
where, um, Delbert came up to
Lyman and says, um,
914
00:41:43,501 --> 00:41:45,934
"You know, Brother William
is-is in a lot of pain
915
00:41:45,968 --> 00:41:47,933
with his stomach and h-his
head problems.
916
00:41:47,967 --> 00:41:49,668
He has continuous headaches,
917
00:41:49,701 --> 00:41:52,501
and I think it's about time
that we did something, uh,
918
00:41:52,534 --> 00:41:54,101
to help him,"
919
00:41:54,135 --> 00:41:55,968
and then Lyman
asked Delbert, he says,
920
00:41:56,001 --> 00:41:57,401
"What do you mean by, you know,
921
00:41:57,434 --> 00:41:58,634
'It's about time we
did something.'"
922
00:41:58,668 --> 00:42:01,034
He says, "I think we, uh,
you know, should kill him
923
00:42:01,067 --> 00:42:03,100
so he's not suffering anymore,"
924
00:42:03,134 --> 00:42:05,534
and initially,
they talked in regards
925
00:42:05,567 --> 00:42:07,167
to how they were
going to kill him,
926
00:42:07,200 --> 00:42:09,467
or how Delbert
was going to kill him,
927
00:42:09,501 --> 00:42:12,000
and Delbert decided
he was gonna use a rifle
928
00:42:12,034 --> 00:42:13,134
and shoot him in the head.
929
00:42:14,235 --> 00:42:17,100
Um, Lyman had explained
to him that was too messy,
930
00:42:17,134 --> 00:42:19,768
and he didn't wanna
do it that way,
931
00:42:19,801 --> 00:42:21,201
or have it done that way,
932
00:42:21,235 --> 00:42:24,000
and it was decided that
Delbert would choke him,
933
00:42:24,034 --> 00:42:25,933
um...
934
00:42:25,967 --> 00:42:27,434
and kill him.
935
00:42:27,467 --> 00:42:28,767
♪♪
936
00:42:40,334 --> 00:42:42,001
One of the problems that I've...
937
00:42:42,035 --> 00:42:43,168
as I am sure you are well aware,
938
00:42:43,201 --> 00:42:44,668
one of the problems
that I've had with the,
939
00:42:44,701 --> 00:42:49,400
the incredible press coverage
is that it is...
940
00:42:50,901 --> 00:42:53,034
presenting to Delbert
a whole 'nother world
941
00:42:53,067 --> 00:42:54,668
that he's not used to,
942
00:42:54,701 --> 00:42:57,035
and by presenting that to him,
943
00:42:57,068 --> 00:42:59,933
it's, it's changing him
in, in some form,
944
00:42:59,967 --> 00:43:02,400
um, and it is to my benefit,
945
00:43:03,567 --> 00:43:06,134
I should say, it's to his benefit,
that he appear,
946
00:43:06,167 --> 00:43:09,467
uh, to the jury as he was
on the date
947
00:43:09,501 --> 00:43:12,434
that this incident
allegedly took place.
948
00:43:12,467 --> 00:43:15,601
Um, I would hate...
[stammers]
949
00:43:15,634 --> 00:43:18,801
it comes to mind,
the example of him testifying,
950
00:43:18,834 --> 00:43:20,768
you know, in a sharkskin suit,
951
00:43:20,801 --> 00:43:22,601
with his hair slicked back
952
00:43:22,634 --> 00:43:24,801
and, and sunglasses on.
953
00:43:24,834 --> 00:43:25,834
Now, that would never happen,
954
00:43:25,868 --> 00:43:26,933
but that's what I'm getting at.
955
00:43:26,967 --> 00:43:28,801
I don't want him to change.
956
00:43:28,834 --> 00:43:31,768
He's still is obviously
a shy, gentle person,
957
00:43:31,801 --> 00:43:34,100
but he's becoming somewhat, uh,
958
00:43:34,134 --> 00:43:36,134
schooled in the ways
of the world.
959
00:43:36,167 --> 00:43:37,533
♪♪
960
00:43:42,067 --> 00:43:44,167
[inaudible dialogue]
961
00:43:45,534 --> 00:43:48,334
[chickens clucking]
962
00:43:48,367 --> 00:43:50,633
[muffled auctioneer]
963
00:43:52,901 --> 00:43:55,101
Dollar and a quarter.
[mumbling]
964
00:43:55,135 --> 00:43:57,768
One and a half. Dollar 75.
Two dollar, and a quarter.
965
00:43:57,801 --> 00:44:01,466
[auctioneer continues]
966
00:44:05,434 --> 00:44:08,301
It seems odd to see Delbert
here without Bill.
967
00:44:08,334 --> 00:44:11,367
I've known them, them guys,
what, 35, 40 years,
968
00:44:11,401 --> 00:44:13,034
never, never seen 'em apart.
969
00:44:13,067 --> 00:44:14,200
Never seen 'em apart.
970
00:44:14,234 --> 00:44:15,401
Delbert's changing, I think.
971
00:44:15,434 --> 00:44:16,467
- Delbert is changing.
- Yeah.
972
00:44:16,501 --> 00:44:17,734
Delbert is changing.
973
00:44:17,768 --> 00:44:19,100
Yeah, Delbert is changing.
974
00:44:19,134 --> 00:44:21,933
♪♪
975
00:44:21,967 --> 00:44:23,968
[chicken squawking]
976
00:44:24,001 --> 00:44:26,566
[auctioneer continues,
indistinct]
977
00:44:32,235 --> 00:44:35,134
[Art Bishopp] Delbert, well,
he hasn't changed in 40 years.
978
00:44:35,167 --> 00:44:36,367
I do know that.
979
00:44:36,401 --> 00:44:37,534
No, he hasn't changed.
980
00:44:37,567 --> 00:44:39,868
See, the nice part about Delbert,
981
00:44:39,901 --> 00:44:41,367
he tells you something,
you can believe it.
982
00:44:41,401 --> 00:44:42,467
This guy says, "Good morning,"
983
00:44:42,501 --> 00:44:44,034
you gotta look out
and see if it's night.
984
00:44:44,067 --> 00:44:45,101
You know, I used to come up,
985
00:44:45,135 --> 00:44:47,868
I used to see Delbert
when he was down here.
986
00:44:47,901 --> 00:44:50,267
Delbert was here,
wasn't you, Delbert?
987
00:44:50,301 --> 00:44:51,401
Mm-hmm.
988
00:44:51,434 --> 00:44:55,001
I was, uh, I was 15 years old
when Delbert was born.
989
00:44:55,035 --> 00:44:56,534
Oh, Delbert's a good boy.
- It's kinda scary.
990
00:44:56,567 --> 00:44:57,667
Always has been.
991
00:44:58,668 --> 00:45:00,601
When it, when it boils down
to everything,
992
00:45:00,634 --> 00:45:02,768
I think it come out of
the kindness of his heart.
993
00:45:02,801 --> 00:45:04,867
That's what I, that's what I
believed from the beginning,
994
00:45:04,900 --> 00:45:06,134
and I believe it today.
995
00:45:06,167 --> 00:45:09,200
♪♪
996
00:45:09,234 --> 00:45:11,500
[auction continues, indistinct]
997
00:45:17,501 --> 00:45:18,968
[chicken squawking]
998
00:45:19,132 --> 00:45:21,300
Well, I-I-I do believe
h-he probably,
999
00:45:21,334 --> 00:45:24,900
he probably did do it
out of, you know...
1000
00:45:24,933 --> 00:45:26,135
but it's, it's, uh...
1001
00:45:26,195 --> 00:45:27,594
At first, I didn't,
I didn't believe it,
1002
00:45:27,601 --> 00:45:29,734
and then we started
putting everything together,
1003
00:45:29,768 --> 00:45:32,634
with, you know, with Bill's
troubles and all and, uh,
1004
00:45:32,967 --> 00:45:34,501
and if he, if he was suffering,
1005
00:45:34,535 --> 00:45:37,201
it wouldn't be beyond him,
probably, to...
1006
00:45:37,234 --> 00:45:38,535
like, put him out of his misery,
1007
00:45:38,568 --> 00:45:41,268
like you would a sick cat
or something like that.
1008
00:45:41,301 --> 00:45:43,934
But, uh, it was, it was hard
to talk about it while we,
1009
00:45:43,967 --> 00:45:45,201
you know, with Delbert around
1010
00:45:45,234 --> 00:45:47,567
'cause I know he
probably feels bad.
1011
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,200
But they've been damn,
damn good boys.
1012
00:45:58,734 --> 00:46:01,401
Our objective
in any interrogation
1013
00:46:01,435 --> 00:46:05,201
is to solicit
incriminating responses,
1014
00:46:05,234 --> 00:46:08,168
and, uh, I mean, we're in the
business of...
1015
00:46:08,201 --> 00:46:11,600
of, of doing police work and
doing effective police work,
1016
00:46:11,634 --> 00:46:15,734
and we use the, the methods
and techniques
1017
00:46:15,767 --> 00:46:17,867
that are, are
most productive to us,
1018
00:46:17,901 --> 00:46:20,201
and it's my opinion that
Question and Answer
1019
00:46:20,234 --> 00:46:22,600
is the most productive
in an interrogation.
1020
00:46:24,468 --> 00:46:27,034
[Thurston]
Were you befuddled in any way
1021
00:46:27,068 --> 00:46:31,233
on the sixth of June
by this whole procedure?
1022
00:46:31,267 --> 00:46:32,867
Um, no, I guess not.
1023
00:46:32,901 --> 00:46:34,300
Do you know what befuddled means?
1024
00:46:34,333 --> 00:46:35,033
No, I don't.
1025
00:46:36,401 --> 00:46:39,901
We discussed, briefly, if he knew
what any of his rights were,
1026
00:46:39,934 --> 00:46:44,201
and he remarked, right off,
that he, uh, he watched TV,
1027
00:46:44,234 --> 00:46:46,500
especially, uh, "Hunter,"
1028
00:46:46,534 --> 00:46:48,568
which is a detective show,
1029
00:46:48,601 --> 00:46:51,934
and he did know
some of his rights, verbatim,
1030
00:46:51,967 --> 00:46:53,834
uh, already.
1031
00:46:53,913 --> 00:46:56,001
[Thurston] Did they suggest to you,
in any way, that,
1032
00:46:56,034 --> 00:46:57,667
how you might have killed Bill?
1033
00:46:57,701 --> 00:46:59,434
Yes, they did.
They showed me how I done it.
1034
00:46:59,467 --> 00:47:00,500
Could you show me?
1035
00:47:00,534 --> 00:47:02,168
Yes, I could show you.
1036
00:47:02,201 --> 00:47:04,067
Well, go ahead, show me.
1037
00:47:06,535 --> 00:47:07,934
[muffled] That's tight as you
can squeeze?
1038
00:47:07,967 --> 00:47:10,233
Can't kill me. [mumbling]
1039
00:47:12,134 --> 00:47:13,267
[muffled laughing]
1040
00:47:14,468 --> 00:47:17,500
What he told us, that night,
is what I'm relating to you,
1041
00:47:17,534 --> 00:47:19,268
and that's what he told us.
1042
00:47:19,301 --> 00:47:22,000
After the fact, a lot of words
were put in his mouth,
1043
00:47:22,033 --> 00:47:23,435
but...
1044
00:47:23,468 --> 00:47:26,001
there was no, no...
Investigator Rifenberg
1045
00:47:26,034 --> 00:47:27,168
didn't demonstrate on me,
1046
00:47:27,201 --> 00:47:28,500
or I didn't demonstrate on him.
1047
00:47:28,534 --> 00:47:29,901
His exact way of doing it
1048
00:47:29,934 --> 00:47:32,434
was he put his hand
over his own mouth
1049
00:47:32,467 --> 00:47:34,133
to indicate how he did it.
1050
00:47:35,901 --> 00:47:39,100
[cows mooing]
1051
00:47:43,701 --> 00:47:45,234
[District Attorney]
So, at that point,
1052
00:47:45,268 --> 00:47:47,168
they want to take a written
statement, right?
1053
00:47:47,201 --> 00:47:48,501
A typed statement?
- [Delbert] Yes.
1054
00:47:48,535 --> 00:47:50,667
They want to put that
down in writing,
1055
00:47:50,701 --> 00:47:51,701
and they told you that.
1056
00:47:51,734 --> 00:47:52,901
Yes, they told me that.
1057
00:47:52,934 --> 00:47:54,535
And you said yes.
- Yes.
1058
00:47:54,568 --> 00:47:56,934
And you remember them telling
you that it was a crime
1059
00:47:56,967 --> 00:47:58,901
in the State of New York...
- Yes.
1060
00:47:58,934 --> 00:48:00,201
...to give a
false statement...
1061
00:48:00,234 --> 00:48:02,567
Yes.
- ...and you understood that?
1062
00:48:02,600 --> 00:48:03,901
No, I didn't understood it.
1063
00:48:03,934 --> 00:48:05,734
You didn't understand
that it's a crime to lie?
1064
00:48:05,767 --> 00:48:09,334
No, 'cause I knew
I didn't kill him.
1065
00:48:09,368 --> 00:48:13,034
And then they said to you, "Delbert,
if this is the truth, sign this statement."
1066
00:48:13,068 --> 00:48:14,068
Remember him telling you that?
1067
00:48:14,101 --> 00:48:15,734
Yes, I remember him telling
me that.
1068
00:48:15,767 --> 00:48:17,167
And you signed the statement?
1069
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:18,867
Yes, I signed it.
1070
00:48:18,901 --> 00:48:19,834
Now, you weren't handcuffed?
1071
00:48:19,867 --> 00:48:21,068
No.
1072
00:48:21,101 --> 00:48:23,033
They didn't have their guns
out pointing them at you?
1073
00:48:23,067 --> 00:48:24,535
No.
1074
00:48:24,568 --> 00:48:26,701
You say they read this to you
about four or five times?
1075
00:48:26,734 --> 00:48:29,068
About that.
- About that.
1076
00:48:29,101 --> 00:48:30,600
And each time, you told them
that was the truth
1077
00:48:30,634 --> 00:48:32,168
and those were your answers?
1078
00:48:32,201 --> 00:48:34,268
Yes, I thought
that if I cooperated,
1079
00:48:34,301 --> 00:48:36,233
I would get out of there,
but I didn't.
1080
00:48:37,867 --> 00:48:40,033
[birds cawing]
1081
00:48:47,068 --> 00:48:51,101
They've jumped from,
uh, sex to, with incest,
1082
00:48:51,134 --> 00:48:53,101
or whatever you'd call it,
1083
00:48:53,334 --> 00:48:55,934
between the boys, to mercy
killing to,
1084
00:48:55,967 --> 00:48:57,634
what the hell, who knows.
1085
00:48:58,601 --> 00:49:00,600
They still haven't come up
with any motive
1086
00:49:00,634 --> 00:49:02,300
for why he would kill him.
1087
00:49:03,334 --> 00:49:06,134
Bill was the whole push
behind this family.
1088
00:49:06,167 --> 00:49:07,066
He was the boss.
1089
00:49:08,234 --> 00:49:10,635
He walked in front,
and Delbert walked back of him,
1090
00:49:10,668 --> 00:49:13,201
and when Bill stopped,
Delbert would run into him.
1091
00:49:13,234 --> 00:49:16,301
That's the way they lead,
and that's the way they followed.
1092
00:49:16,334 --> 00:49:18,368
They were two men that walked
the same pair of shoes,
1093
00:49:18,401 --> 00:49:22,325
so Delbert wouldn't, no way,
done anything to Bill.
1094
00:49:23,334 --> 00:49:25,934
According to my information,
1095
00:49:25,967 --> 00:49:28,101
and it must be...
1096
00:49:28,134 --> 00:49:29,700
on the record now,
1097
00:49:29,734 --> 00:49:31,268
they held Bill's body two days
1098
00:49:31,301 --> 00:49:35,966
over at the funeral parlor
to do a rape test on him.
1099
00:49:38,433 --> 00:49:40,734
It come out inconclusive
1100
00:49:40,767 --> 00:49:43,101
or whatever the hell they put it.
1101
00:49:43,134 --> 00:49:44,701
So, that was nothing.
1102
00:49:44,735 --> 00:49:47,401
[Interviewer]
What were they looking for?
1103
00:49:47,434 --> 00:49:49,734
Looking for sperm in Bill's body.
1104
00:49:51,234 --> 00:49:54,134
That was because they
always slept together,
1105
00:49:54,167 --> 00:49:55,534
but if they'd found it or not,
1106
00:49:55,568 --> 00:49:56,868
what the hell difference
does that make?
1107
00:49:56,902 --> 00:49:59,268
We got a lot of goddamn guys
down in New York City,
1108
00:49:59,308 --> 00:50:00,807
where you boys are from,
that sleep together.
1109
00:50:00,834 --> 00:50:02,168
[laughing]
1110
00:50:02,202 --> 00:50:05,967
And they ain't doin' it just
because it's a way of life, either.
1111
00:50:06,001 --> 00:50:07,934
I mean, that would have
no bearing on the case,
1112
00:50:07,967 --> 00:50:09,600
whatsoever, in my mind.
1113
00:50:10,468 --> 00:50:12,434
We have lesbians and gay
people all over,
1114
00:50:12,468 --> 00:50:15,634
so why the hell they was bothering
with Bill and Delbert?
1115
00:50:15,667 --> 00:50:17,034
I don't understand that part,
1116
00:50:17,067 --> 00:50:18,568
but they were just
fishing for something
1117
00:50:18,601 --> 00:50:20,667
to justify what they were doin'.
1118
00:50:22,334 --> 00:50:24,433
That would be my
understanding of it.
1119
00:50:25,667 --> 00:50:26,933
Like a witch hunt.
1120
00:50:27,967 --> 00:50:29,067
Like the mercy killing.
1121
00:50:29,101 --> 00:50:32,934
He hasn't been sick, uh,
any more than normal.
1122
00:50:32,967 --> 00:50:35,067
For Bill, Bill was always
hobbling or lame
1123
00:50:35,101 --> 00:50:38,800
or a thumb-bunged
or his arm hurt or something,
1124
00:50:38,834 --> 00:50:40,134
and every time I had
ever seen him,
1125
00:50:40,167 --> 00:50:43,267
he's always had something
bunged up on him, so...
1126
00:50:44,867 --> 00:50:47,034
He wasn't sick...
1127
00:50:47,067 --> 00:50:48,901
so that would rule out
the mercy killing,
1128
00:50:48,934 --> 00:50:51,567
so what the hell else
could they come up with?
1129
00:50:51,600 --> 00:50:53,867
I think, probably, that...
1130
00:50:53,901 --> 00:50:56,134
you get a few
narrow-minded people,
1131
00:50:56,167 --> 00:50:58,101
it wouldn't matter
who slept together,
1132
00:50:58,134 --> 00:51:00,201
they'd have to
think the worst of 'em.
1133
00:51:00,234 --> 00:51:02,401
That's they way
our society works.
1134
00:51:02,434 --> 00:51:04,934
We're not back a hundred
years ago,
1135
00:51:04,967 --> 00:51:07,368
whatever you did was all right.
1136
00:51:07,401 --> 00:51:08,902
Before we got heat in the houses,
1137
00:51:08,935 --> 00:51:11,201
which the boys don't have no
central heating or anything,
1138
00:51:11,234 --> 00:51:12,767
they slept together,
probably, more or less,
1139
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:14,234
for warmth,
1140
00:51:14,268 --> 00:51:16,101
so they wouldn't freeze to death.
1141
00:51:16,134 --> 00:51:18,401
We used to have a wood stove,
and it heated one room.
1142
00:51:18,434 --> 00:51:21,434
You'd burn your belly
and freeze your ass.
1143
00:51:21,468 --> 00:51:24,134
When you get up to bed, there was no heat
in all our bedrooms.
1144
00:51:24,167 --> 00:51:26,734
Oh, I think these boys
are the same way.
1145
00:51:27,901 --> 00:51:29,700
They just slept together
when they was kids,
1146
00:51:29,734 --> 00:51:31,735
and why the hell change it?
1147
00:51:31,768 --> 00:51:34,300
Was a comfortable arrangement
all the way around.
1148
00:51:35,567 --> 00:51:36,667
Just a habit.
1149
00:51:37,801 --> 00:51:40,301
These not are the most
educated people in the world.
1150
00:51:40,334 --> 00:51:41,601
It probably never dawned on them
1151
00:51:41,635 --> 00:51:42,901
that anybody would ever question
1152
00:51:42,934 --> 00:51:44,667
why they slept in the same bed.
1153
00:51:47,068 --> 00:51:51,234
And before Bill died, I don't think
anybody ever paid any attention.
1154
00:51:51,268 --> 00:51:53,000
You wouldn't think nothing
about it.
1155
00:51:54,801 --> 00:51:56,434
Hell, nobody ever went
in their house anyway.
1156
00:51:56,468 --> 00:51:58,867
Always talked in the cow barn.
1157
00:51:58,901 --> 00:52:00,401
I've known them since,
for Christ's sakes,
1158
00:52:00,434 --> 00:52:01,735
for better than 50 years,
1159
00:52:01,768 --> 00:52:04,867
and I never been in their
house, only twice.
1160
00:52:04,901 --> 00:52:06,467
So, what the hell
did I care where they slept
1161
00:52:06,500 --> 00:52:07,533
or anybody else?
1162
00:52:07,567 --> 00:52:09,133
It's nobody's damn business.
1163
00:52:10,301 --> 00:52:12,201
So, when the investigators
pulled that one,
1164
00:52:12,234 --> 00:52:14,600
I was kind of surprised, but...
1165
00:52:15,934 --> 00:52:17,601
I guess they'd pull most anything
1166
00:52:17,635 --> 00:52:20,600
when you get your tail
caught in a crack in a log.
1167
00:52:20,634 --> 00:52:22,567
[chuckling]
1168
00:52:22,600 --> 00:52:24,735
[dogs barking]
1169
00:52:24,768 --> 00:52:26,700
[Interviewer]
When was this house built?
1170
00:52:26,734 --> 00:52:29,267
What, sixty... five.
1171
00:52:30,468 --> 00:52:32,567
Musta been, 'cause Ma lived
in it just about a year
1172
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:34,034
before she passed away.
1173
00:52:34,067 --> 00:52:35,367
And she died in '65.
1174
00:52:36,334 --> 00:52:39,066
Or '64, then, it was about.
- '64, probably.
1175
00:52:40,467 --> 00:52:41,600
I'd say.
1176
00:52:44,800 --> 00:52:46,301
Was there a house here before?
1177
00:52:46,334 --> 00:52:48,134
There was an old house,
sat over on this other side.
1178
00:52:48,167 --> 00:52:49,600
Over on this other side.
1179
00:52:52,401 --> 00:52:55,134
What was, what was your mom like?
1180
00:52:55,167 --> 00:52:57,901
She was a good person,
good lady, good mother.
1181
00:52:57,934 --> 00:53:00,500
Yeah.
- Do anything for you.
1182
00:53:06,467 --> 00:53:08,100
She died of cancers...
1183
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:10,967
Didn't she Delbert?
- Ma.
1184
00:53:11,001 --> 00:53:12,467
Yup.
- Yeah, so did Dad.
1185
00:53:12,500 --> 00:53:13,401
Yeah.
1186
00:53:13,434 --> 00:53:16,400
[stammering]
Sister Emma had 'em.
1187
00:53:17,634 --> 00:53:19,066
Moses' mother.
1188
00:53:20,034 --> 00:53:22,201
I think Bill died
with a cancer, too.
1189
00:53:22,234 --> 00:53:23,966
I do. He did.
1190
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:28,966
♪♪
1191
00:53:33,134 --> 00:53:35,066
This battery's not too lively.
1192
00:53:41,967 --> 00:53:44,767
[indistinct mumbling]
1193
00:53:52,767 --> 00:53:54,134
It's the battery.
1194
00:53:54,167 --> 00:53:55,635
[engine sputtering]
1195
00:53:55,668 --> 00:53:57,667
Don't think either one of
'em's any good.
1196
00:54:00,433 --> 00:54:02,467
[cows mooing]
1197
00:54:18,734 --> 00:54:22,101
[engine sputtering]
1198
00:54:22,134 --> 00:54:24,600
Goddamn fuckin' thing.
1199
00:54:35,268 --> 00:54:37,166
[cows mooing]
1200
00:54:42,234 --> 00:54:44,734
I don't think she's gonna
start, Lyman.
1201
00:54:44,767 --> 00:54:48,100
[engine sputtering]
1202
00:54:52,401 --> 00:54:53,967
[indistinct mumbling]
1203
00:54:54,001 --> 00:54:55,133
That's the end of it.
1204
00:54:55,166 --> 00:54:56,267
Yep.
1205
00:54:57,634 --> 00:54:58,700
♪♪
1206
00:55:01,767 --> 00:55:03,834
[wind rustling]
1207
00:55:20,101 --> 00:55:22,933
[dog barking]
1208
00:55:29,268 --> 00:55:31,300
[dog whimpering]
1209
00:55:33,268 --> 00:55:37,134
[music on tv]
1210
00:55:37,367 --> 00:55:38,934
Our first story
is about some people
1211
00:55:38,967 --> 00:55:40,901
you just don't see on television.
1212
00:55:40,935 --> 00:55:42,600
I mean, they're almost
from a different era.
1213
00:55:42,633 --> 00:55:44,601
Sort of unbelievable.
1214
00:55:44,634 --> 00:55:46,601
You just have to see this story.
1215
00:55:46,634 --> 00:55:48,468
It's about the Ward brothers,
1216
00:55:48,501 --> 00:55:50,468
Delbert, Roscoe, Lyman, and Bill.
1217
00:55:50,501 --> 00:55:53,067
All bachelors, who live
together in a cramped shack,
1218
00:55:53,101 --> 00:55:54,901
where they were born
in Munnsville.
1219
00:55:54,935 --> 00:55:57,734
It's a small dairy town
in central New York state.
1220
00:55:57,768 --> 00:55:59,934
The Ward Boys,
as they've always been known,
1221
00:55:59,967 --> 00:56:02,434
lived the way farmers did
200 years ago.
1222
00:56:02,568 --> 00:56:04,168
They never learned
to read or write.
1223
00:56:04,202 --> 00:56:07,267
They have no running water,
no modern farming equipment.
1224
00:56:07,301 --> 00:56:09,833
Nobody in town ever
paid much attention to them,
1225
00:56:09,867 --> 00:56:11,668
until one day last summer,
1226
00:56:11,701 --> 00:56:15,834
when Delbert was charged with murdering
his older brother, Bill.
1227
00:56:15,868 --> 00:56:17,167
Suddenly,
the people of Munnsville
1228
00:56:17,201 --> 00:56:18,568
rallied around Delbert.
1229
00:56:18,601 --> 00:56:20,701
It's hard
to put into words just...
1230
00:56:20,934 --> 00:56:22,768
how simple they really are.
1231
00:56:22,801 --> 00:56:25,567
They never really grown up.
1232
00:56:25,601 --> 00:56:29,401
They're just plain, simple boys.
1233
00:56:29,434 --> 00:56:31,033
Little boys,
1234
00:56:31,067 --> 00:56:32,934
with old man's faces.
1235
00:56:32,968 --> 00:56:36,034
He wouldn't even shoot a cat
if he was half dead.
1236
00:56:36,068 --> 00:56:39,467
Talking about killing Bill...
no way.
1237
00:56:39,501 --> 00:56:40,367
No, he didn't.
1238
00:56:41,801 --> 00:56:43,968
[Connie Chung on TV]
What did the police ask you that night?
1239
00:56:44,001 --> 00:56:45,768
[Delbert on TV]
Well, they asked me if I killed him,
1240
00:56:45,801 --> 00:56:46,900
and I tried to tell them, "No,"
1241
00:56:46,933 --> 00:56:48,968
- They wouldn't.
1242
00:56:49,001 --> 00:56:50,968
- They said,
"You did, you did."
1243
00:56:51,001 --> 00:56:52,934
[Chung] You told him
you didn't kill him.
1244
00:56:52,968 --> 00:56:54,567
[Delbert] Well, I tried to,
but they wouldn't believe me.
1245
00:56:54,601 --> 00:56:57,067
[Asst. DA on TV]
I just slid my hand around his head,
1246
00:56:57,100 --> 00:56:59,201
came up, covered his mouth,
1247
00:56:59,235 --> 00:57:02,567
and held my hand there for a
period of about five minutes.
1248
00:57:02,601 --> 00:57:04,768
You're a goddamn liar.
- Yeah.
1249
00:57:04,801 --> 00:57:05,934
[overlapping talking]
1250
00:57:05,968 --> 00:57:08,300
'Cause you told, you told me
that's how I done it.
1251
00:57:08,334 --> 00:57:09,968
Goddamn liar.
1252
00:57:10,001 --> 00:57:11,601
You told me that's how I done it,
1253
00:57:11,634 --> 00:57:12,868
showed me how I done it.
1254
00:57:12,901 --> 00:57:15,402
[Asst. DA on TV]
He showed how he was laying in the bed...
1255
00:57:15,435 --> 00:57:18,567
That son of a bitch wasn't supposed
to have been there until 7:30,
1256
00:57:18,601 --> 00:57:21,534
they brought him in just to
read the confession over,
1257
00:57:21,567 --> 00:57:22,401
didn't he?
1258
00:57:22,434 --> 00:57:24,200
Yes, he's a son of a bitch
and a liar.
1259
00:57:24,234 --> 00:57:25,401
Yeah, he's lying like hell.
1260
00:57:25,434 --> 00:57:26,534
He wasn't supposed to been
down there
1261
00:57:26,567 --> 00:57:29,068
according to
the Huntley Hearing 'til 7:30
1262
00:57:29,101 --> 00:57:31,500
just to read that confession
over to you.
1263
00:57:32,834 --> 00:57:34,867
Are you crying Delbert?
- No.
1264
00:57:34,900 --> 00:57:36,101
Sometimes I do.
1265
00:57:36,135 --> 00:57:37,801
You don't have to pay
no attention to that.
1266
00:57:37,834 --> 00:57:39,934
Why were you crying Delbert?
1267
00:57:39,968 --> 00:57:42,268
Well, I think of Bill a lot
down there again.
1268
00:57:42,301 --> 00:57:46,101
Then Jane or Moses or Glenn
come in to see me
1269
00:57:46,135 --> 00:57:50,034
or some of my other friends,
and then I'd start crying.
1270
00:57:50,068 --> 00:57:54,401
[Connie Chung] After 20 days,
Delbert's bail was finally set at $10,000,
1271
00:57:54,434 --> 00:57:56,135
and the people of Munnsville,
1272
00:57:56,168 --> 00:57:59,135
who had never before embraced
any of the Wards,
1273
00:57:59,168 --> 00:58:01,701
raised the money to free him
in a day.
1274
00:58:01,734 --> 00:58:03,435
We're all your friends.
- I know it.
1275
00:58:03,468 --> 00:58:05,768
We're always gonna be your friends.
- I know that.
1276
00:58:05,801 --> 00:58:08,200
And we wish you a lot of
health and happiness.
1277
00:58:08,234 --> 00:58:10,567
Thank you, all.
- In your 60th year.
1278
00:58:10,601 --> 00:58:12,734
[man] And he hopes he gets
out of this.
1279
00:58:12,768 --> 00:58:14,868
We know he's gonna get out of it.
1280
00:58:14,901 --> 00:58:17,234
[Asst. DA] And I think
Delbert knows what happened
1281
00:58:17,267 --> 00:58:18,368
that night on Johnson Road.
1282
00:58:18,402 --> 00:58:20,868
He has to live with it
the rest of his life.
1283
00:58:20,901 --> 00:58:22,667
[Thurston] He had no problem
with it, so far,
1284
00:58:22,701 --> 00:58:24,135
you son of a bitch.
1285
00:58:24,168 --> 00:58:26,200
If I ever get the chance
at that bastard,
1286
00:58:26,234 --> 00:58:29,135
and he's on my land,
he'd better pray.
1287
00:58:29,168 --> 00:58:31,434
'Cause I'm gettin' so goddamn
old and so goddamn sick
1288
00:58:31,467 --> 00:58:32,768
that I don't care
too much anymore.
1289
00:58:32,801 --> 00:58:35,034
It makes me a dangerous man.
1290
00:58:35,068 --> 00:58:37,434
[Connie Chung] Delbert Ward's
trial is expected to begin
1291
00:58:37,467 --> 00:58:38,768
in a few weeks.
1292
00:58:38,801 --> 00:58:40,535
Organizers in Munnsville
are planning
1293
00:58:40,568 --> 00:58:43,768
several benefit raffles to cover
the cost of his defense.
1294
00:58:43,801 --> 00:58:45,134
We'll be back in a moment.
1295
00:58:45,167 --> 00:58:47,334
[music on tv ♪]
1296
00:58:49,501 --> 00:58:51,402
Well, Roscoe, you...
1297
00:58:51,435 --> 00:58:54,367
had your snoot stuck in that
television camera all summer.
1298
00:58:54,401 --> 00:58:56,367
How'd you like seeing
yourself on television?
1299
00:58:56,401 --> 00:58:57,634
All right.
1300
00:58:57,667 --> 00:59:00,235
Is that all, after all that?
- Yeah.
1301
00:59:00,268 --> 00:59:02,200
Christ, you hogged it all summer,
didn't he Delbert?
1302
00:59:02,234 --> 00:59:03,335
Yeah!
1303
00:59:03,368 --> 00:59:05,534
Every time they got out a
camera, there was Roscoe,
1304
00:59:05,567 --> 00:59:07,901
smilin' and grinnin'.
- Yeah.
1305
00:59:07,934 --> 00:59:10,301
You did a good job, though, Roscoe.
- Yeah.
1306
00:59:10,335 --> 00:59:12,367
I give you credit for that.
- He did do a good job.
1307
00:59:12,401 --> 00:59:15,268
They didn't shake you a goddamn bit.
1308
00:59:15,301 --> 00:59:17,534
Well, I didn't sign no
goddamn papers with them,
1309
00:59:17,567 --> 00:59:19,466
did I, Harry?
- No.
1310
00:59:20,667 --> 00:59:22,768
Lyman wouldn't of signed
the goddamn paper
1311
00:59:22,801 --> 00:59:24,301
if they hadn't told him
he could come home.
1312
00:59:24,335 --> 00:59:26,434
He was so goddamn scared,
he was pretty near dead.
1313
00:59:26,467 --> 00:59:28,467
Look at the goddamn night
he was so bad.
1314
00:59:28,501 --> 00:59:30,001
Jesus Christ, I come up and...
1315
00:59:30,034 --> 00:59:32,101
I had to call you for him
that night.
1316
00:59:32,135 --> 00:59:34,501
Thought- thought Roscoe was
gonna die, we did,
1317
00:59:34,534 --> 00:59:36,534
Jesus Christ, so I told him
he had to get better
1318
00:59:36,567 --> 00:59:38,200
'cause Connie Chung
was comin' the next day,
1319
00:59:38,234 --> 00:59:39,634
and, God, he snapped right
out of it.
1320
00:59:39,667 --> 00:59:42,200
[laughing] He did.
Snapped right out of it.
1321
00:59:42,234 --> 00:59:44,967
And he hasn't been ill since.
- No.
1322
00:59:46,400 --> 00:59:47,834
"All right," Roscoe said,
1323
00:59:47,867 --> 00:59:49,168
"I'll go to bed and get
rested up.
1324
00:59:49,201 --> 00:59:50,300
I'll be all right
in the morning."
1325
00:59:50,334 --> 00:59:51,700
Yeah.
[laughing]
1326
00:59:52,667 --> 00:59:54,468
Joe and Bruce, come on.
Come on up.
1327
00:59:54,501 --> 00:59:57,634
I wanna show you the old-old-
old gobblers.
1328
00:59:57,667 --> 00:59:59,033
♪♪
1329
01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:03,467
[indistinct]
1330
01:00:04,335 --> 01:00:06,933
We named one Joe, and one, Bruce.
1331
01:00:09,968 --> 01:00:12,200
H-Hear 'em, Joe?
[dog barking]
1332
01:00:13,167 --> 01:00:15,133
Gobble, gobble, gobble.
1333
01:00:16,067 --> 01:00:18,434
[laughing]
1334
01:00:20,801 --> 01:00:22,501
I ain't fed ya yet.
1335
01:00:22,535 --> 01:00:25,334
[turkeys gobbling]
That one wants some trouble.
1336
01:00:30,534 --> 01:00:32,200
Gobble, gobble, gobble.
1337
01:00:36,401 --> 01:00:39,633
Come on over, Joe and Bruce.
I wanna show 'em to ya.
1338
01:00:44,367 --> 01:00:46,634
If I can get in there.
1339
01:00:46,667 --> 01:00:49,033
[turkeys gobbling]
1340
01:00:50,301 --> 01:00:54,000
There- there's Joe,
the big one...
1341
01:00:56,335 --> 01:00:58,567
...and that one over there's
Bruce, the one h...
1342
01:00:58,601 --> 01:01:01,001
the one lookin' towards
the windshield.
1343
01:01:01,034 --> 01:01:02,467
[Interviewer] You named your
gobblers after us?
1344
01:01:02,500 --> 01:01:05,467
Yup, that's right.
[laughing]
1345
01:01:05,500 --> 01:01:06,767
How come?
1346
01:01:06,801 --> 01:01:10,101
Well... good name!
- Yeah.
1347
01:01:10,134 --> 01:01:13,068
Good friends.
That's why I done it.
1348
01:01:13,101 --> 01:01:15,001
That's nice.
Well, we're honored.
1349
01:01:15,034 --> 01:01:17,500
I know that.
- Yeah.
1350
01:01:17,534 --> 01:01:18,801
[dogs barking]
1351
01:01:18,834 --> 01:01:20,901
How come you like
collecting birds?
1352
01:01:20,934 --> 01:01:22,934
Oh, well, I always did.
- How come?
1353
01:01:22,968 --> 01:01:24,434
I don't know.
1354
01:01:24,467 --> 01:01:26,234
I used to keep wild doves,
1355
01:01:26,268 --> 01:01:27,934
but I never had no luck with 'em.
1356
01:01:27,968 --> 01:01:29,967
Well, what is it about birds
that you like?
1357
01:01:30,000 --> 01:01:31,635
Oh...
1358
01:01:31,668 --> 01:01:35,434
I like to see 'em around and hear 'em
hear 'em-hear 'em holler.
1359
01:01:35,467 --> 01:01:38,233
Always did.
[turkey gobbling]
1360
01:01:38,267 --> 01:01:40,734
Always like to hear them.
1361
01:01:40,767 --> 01:01:42,901
Gobble, gobble, gobble,
gobble, gobble!
1362
01:01:42,934 --> 01:01:44,268
See them going?
1363
01:01:44,301 --> 01:01:47,601
H-He knows there's something
going on.
1364
01:01:47,634 --> 01:01:50,033
Can't fool that old bird.
1365
01:01:51,968 --> 01:01:54,201
[Cognetti] I wanted you here
today for several reasons.
1366
01:01:54,234 --> 01:01:57,068
The first, is to let you know
what's been happening.
1367
01:01:57,101 --> 01:01:58,934
I really haven't had an
opportunity to speak with-
1368
01:01:58,968 --> 01:02:01,900
with, uh... Hey, Roscoe.
1369
01:02:01,933 --> 01:02:03,334
Roscoe!
1370
01:02:03,367 --> 01:02:04,801
[speaking Italian]
1371
01:02:04,834 --> 01:02:06,268
[laughing]
1372
01:02:06,301 --> 01:02:07,968
I haven't had an opportunity
to speak with a lot of you,
1373
01:02:08,001 --> 01:02:09,867
since maybe even
the bail hearing,
1374
01:02:09,901 --> 01:02:12,301
which was many, many,
many months ago.
1375
01:02:12,335 --> 01:02:14,500
I am very disappointed
at what I see
1376
01:02:14,534 --> 01:02:16,667
from the District Attorney's
office.
1377
01:02:16,701 --> 01:02:19,968
At the time that the body
was moved to the...
1378
01:02:20,001 --> 01:02:22,767
uh, funeral home,
1379
01:02:22,801 --> 01:02:25,667
the clothes were taken
and Doctor Germaniuk,
1380
01:02:25,701 --> 01:02:27,101
sometime thereafter,
1381
01:02:27,134 --> 01:02:29,500
discovered that there was
some sperm
1382
01:02:29,534 --> 01:02:33,001
on the pant leg of William,
1383
01:02:33,034 --> 01:02:35,500
and some sperm on William
himself,
1384
01:02:35,534 --> 01:02:37,468
on his body.
1385
01:02:37,501 --> 01:02:40,501
That, at that moment, changed
his whole theory of the murder.
1386
01:02:40,535 --> 01:02:44,767
It no longer is, at least, this is what
we've been able t-t-to fathom,
1387
01:02:44,801 --> 01:02:47,300
it no longer is a mercy killing.
1388
01:02:47,334 --> 01:02:48,634
Believe it or not,
1389
01:02:48,667 --> 01:02:52,233
it's a sex-gone-bad murder.
1390
01:02:52,267 --> 01:02:54,101
I think the allegation,
1391
01:02:54,134 --> 01:02:55,401
perhaps along with
some other things,
1392
01:02:55,435 --> 01:02:58,267
is that Delbert and William
were having sex,
1393
01:02:58,300 --> 01:03:00,101
uh, that a fight occurred,
1394
01:03:00,134 --> 01:03:01,500
and that Delbert killed William.
1395
01:03:01,534 --> 01:03:02,801
That's-That's incredible.
1396
01:03:02,834 --> 01:03:06,068
That's what the new theory
may very well be.
1397
01:03:06,101 --> 01:03:08,134
He had continually said it
was Delbert's,
1398
01:03:08,168 --> 01:03:09,834
it was Delbert's,
it was Delbert's,
1399
01:03:09,867 --> 01:03:11,968
and we kept saying, how in
God's name do you know that?
1400
01:03:12,001 --> 01:03:14,400
Don't you think you should check
and see if it's William's first?
1401
01:03:14,434 --> 01:03:15,801
Or is it the cow's?
1402
01:03:15,834 --> 01:03:17,234
Or is it somebody else's?
1403
01:03:17,468 --> 01:03:19,301
Now, I am so upset, and I
don't know what else to do.
1404
01:03:19,334 --> 01:03:20,834
If I could,
I told somebody over here,
1405
01:03:20,867 --> 01:03:23,001
if God were to tell me,
today, I'm gonna die,
1406
01:03:23,034 --> 01:03:25,201
the first person I-
this is great for them-
1407
01:03:25,234 --> 01:03:26,268
the first--
[laughing]
1408
01:03:26,301 --> 01:03:28,334
the first person I would kill
is Mr. Cerio.
1409
01:03:28,368 --> 01:03:29,801
I don't have any problem
with the guy
1410
01:03:29,834 --> 01:03:32,201
prosecuting the case
to the best of his ability.
1411
01:03:32,234 --> 01:03:33,600
They're going beyond that.
1412
01:03:33,634 --> 01:03:35,367
I think they look like
a bunch of fools
1413
01:03:35,400 --> 01:03:36,935
in Connie Chung's story.
1414
01:03:36,968 --> 01:03:39,333
I don't know where
a State Police Officer has the guts--
1415
01:03:39,367 --> 01:03:40,401
[applause]
1416
01:03:40,434 --> 01:03:41,867
...to tell
on national television,
1417
01:03:41,901 --> 01:03:43,801
"I know he did it."
1418
01:03:43,834 --> 01:03:45,667
All of a sudden,
he's judge and jury?
1419
01:03:45,700 --> 01:03:47,001
Let me tell you something else.
1420
01:03:47,034 --> 01:03:49,967
When this trial comes,
we're gonna have this planned
1421
01:03:50,001 --> 01:03:51,468
as if it was a Broadway show,
1422
01:03:51,501 --> 01:03:53,534
and I'm gonna ask
every one of you right now,
1423
01:03:53,567 --> 01:03:55,600
I want you to find ten people,
1424
01:03:55,634 --> 01:03:57,101
and I want that courtroom packed
1425
01:03:57,134 --> 01:03:59,301
every minute of every day,
1426
01:03:59,334 --> 01:04:02,600
and I want you people to look those jurors
in the eye when they sit there.
1427
01:04:02,634 --> 01:04:04,667
That's what-
that's what I want,
1428
01:04:04,700 --> 01:04:06,500
and we'll take care
of the legal end.
1429
01:04:06,534 --> 01:04:09,034
I guarantee you,
you will be proud
1430
01:04:09,067 --> 01:04:11,134
of what's going to happen,
1431
01:04:11,168 --> 01:04:12,268
but I need your help.
1432
01:04:12,301 --> 01:04:14,701
I-I need your help,
a-and, uh...
1433
01:04:14,735 --> 01:04:17,667
I can't do it without you.
I want you people there.
1434
01:04:17,700 --> 01:04:19,934
Every day, from the moment
we begin,
1435
01:04:19,967 --> 01:04:21,001
to the moment we end.
1436
01:04:21,034 --> 01:04:22,667
You can bring your lunches.
1437
01:04:22,700 --> 01:04:23,867
I-It's gotta be that way.
1438
01:04:23,901 --> 01:04:26,934
I want- I want the people
in Madison county to know
1439
01:04:26,967 --> 01:04:28,934
that this stuff can't happen.
1440
01:04:28,967 --> 01:04:31,201
The problem is, because
it could be you next time
1441
01:04:31,234 --> 01:04:33,167
or you next time
or you next time.
1442
01:04:38,634 --> 01:04:41,367
[dogs barking in distance]
1443
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:42,833
[door shuts]
1444
01:04:54,300 --> 01:04:56,001
Well, Delbert,
1445
01:04:56,034 --> 01:04:58,234
this is the day
we've been waitin' for,
1446
01:04:58,268 --> 01:04:59,400
maybe we'll get it over.
1447
01:04:59,433 --> 01:05:01,001
Maybe.
I hope so.
1448
01:05:01,034 --> 01:05:02,400
I got one wish.
1449
01:05:02,433 --> 01:05:03,734
My birthday's next Tuesday.
1450
01:05:03,767 --> 01:05:05,668
I hope they bring in
the goddamn verdict
1451
01:05:05,701 --> 01:05:08,333
that you didn't do nothin'
for a birthday present.
1452
01:05:14,333 --> 01:05:16,333
[engine starts]
1453
01:05:25,901 --> 01:05:27,966
[Court Clerk]
All rise, please.
1454
01:05:30,467 --> 01:05:31,334
[gavel bangs]
1455
01:05:31,368 --> 01:05:33,268
Madison County Court
is now in session.
1456
01:05:33,301 --> 01:05:36,368
Honorable William F. O'Brien
the Third presiding.
1457
01:05:36,401 --> 01:05:37,834
Yeah.
Good morning and thank you.
1458
01:05:37,867 --> 01:05:39,066
Have a seat, please.
1459
01:05:41,500 --> 01:05:42,833
[cough]
1460
01:05:46,734 --> 01:05:49,167
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
1461
01:05:50,901 --> 01:05:53,334
This is a murder case,
1462
01:05:53,368 --> 01:05:57,500
wherein, the defendant,
that man...
1463
01:05:57,534 --> 01:05:59,368
...is charged by indictment,
1464
01:05:59,401 --> 01:06:04,334
with having intentionally
caused the death of another...
1465
01:06:04,368 --> 01:06:07,334
...in this case, his brother,
William J. Ward,
1466
01:06:07,368 --> 01:06:10,767
by placing his had or hands
1467
01:06:10,801 --> 01:06:14,667
over the nose and mouth
of his brother...
1468
01:06:14,700 --> 01:06:17,200
...thereby intentionally
causing his death
1469
01:06:17,233 --> 01:06:18,900
by asphyxiation.
1470
01:06:19,934 --> 01:06:22,501
You will hear that the defendant,
1471
01:06:22,534 --> 01:06:27,134
at that time,
stated to Police Officers,
1472
01:06:27,167 --> 01:06:29,334
"After Bill went to sleep,
1473
01:06:29,368 --> 01:06:32,035
I decided to put my hand
over his mouth."
1474
01:06:32,068 --> 01:06:35,534
He said that he held his hand
there for about five minutes,
1475
01:06:35,568 --> 01:06:37,968
until he felt that William
was dead,
1476
01:06:38,002 --> 01:06:42,134
and at the conclusion of this case,
ladies and gentlemen...
1477
01:06:42,167 --> 01:06:45,166
...upon the conclusion
of your deliberations...
1478
01:06:48,334 --> 01:06:51,234
...I will ask you to return...
1479
01:06:51,267 --> 01:06:53,801
...a verdict of guilty
in this case.
1480
01:06:53,835 --> 01:06:57,433
Guilty of the crime of murder
in the second degree.
1481
01:07:03,701 --> 01:07:07,834
Ladies and gentlemen, let me begin
by saying simply...
1482
01:07:07,867 --> 01:07:09,667
...perhaps dramatically, that...
1483
01:07:09,700 --> 01:07:13,233
Delbert Ward did not...
1484
01:07:14,001 --> 01:07:17,002
...murder his brother William.
1485
01:07:17,035 --> 01:07:21,167
Delbert Ward could no sooner
kill his brother, Bill,
1486
01:07:21,201 --> 01:07:23,900
than he could kill
a half-dead tom cat.
1487
01:07:23,934 --> 01:07:25,501
I would submit,
ladies and gentlemen,
1488
01:07:25,534 --> 01:07:27,668
you will unquestionably learn
1489
01:07:27,701 --> 01:07:31,167
that what we have is a child
in the body of a man.
1490
01:07:31,201 --> 01:07:33,834
Here is a man, whose disability,
1491
01:07:33,867 --> 01:07:36,501
whose simple personality,
1492
01:07:36,534 --> 01:07:38,900
made him susceptible to tactics,
1493
01:07:38,934 --> 01:07:41,868
that would have been
recognized by you and I,
1494
01:07:41,901 --> 01:07:46,400
as coercive, when used
against Delbert Ward.
1495
01:07:48,767 --> 01:07:51,234
Here's a man, who allegedly...
1496
01:07:51,267 --> 01:07:53,867
...signed an alleged
confession...
1497
01:07:55,101 --> 01:07:57,900
...and that confession, ladies
and gentlemen,
1498
01:07:57,934 --> 01:08:01,501
that confession is the only proof
1499
01:08:01,534 --> 01:08:03,900
that the prosecutor
will show you,
1500
01:08:03,934 --> 01:08:06,900
will give to you
over the next several days,
1501
01:08:06,934 --> 01:08:08,834
that can connect Delbert
1502
01:08:08,867 --> 01:08:12,334
with the murder
of his brother, Bill.
1503
01:08:12,368 --> 01:08:15,900
There was and is
no independent...
1504
01:08:15,934 --> 01:08:18,201
...medical proof...
1505
01:08:18,234 --> 01:08:22,568
...that William died
as a result of a homicide.
1506
01:08:22,601 --> 01:08:24,967
You must come back,
ladies and gentlemen,
1507
01:08:25,001 --> 01:08:27,467
and tell Delbert and I
that you find him
1508
01:08:27,500 --> 01:08:29,835
not guilty...
1509
01:08:29,868 --> 01:08:33,967
...of the crime of murder
in the second degree.
1510
01:08:34,001 --> 01:08:36,201
As I remember,
1511
01:08:36,234 --> 01:08:40,534
m-m-my feeling was that he
was telling it like he is,
1512
01:08:40,568 --> 01:08:42,501
he didn't know what was wrong,
1513
01:08:42,534 --> 01:08:45,234
and, uh, that's what he said,
1514
01:08:45,267 --> 01:08:47,267
he said, "Something's wrong
with Bill."
1515
01:08:47,301 --> 01:08:50,401
Oh, all over the world
everybody knows Delbert,
1516
01:08:50,434 --> 01:08:52,534
in our hometown.
[clears throat]
1517
01:08:52,568 --> 01:08:54,800
If you saw him again,
could you pick him out?
1518
01:08:54,834 --> 01:08:55,700
Yeah.
1519
01:08:55,734 --> 01:08:57,034
Could you recognize him?
- Yeah.
1520
01:08:57,067 --> 01:08:58,534
Is he in the courtroom?
- Yeah.
1521
01:08:58,568 --> 01:09:01,500
Well, would you- can you
point him out for us, please?
1522
01:09:01,533 --> 01:09:03,368
Okay.
1523
01:09:03,601 --> 01:09:05,367
The gentleman
with the gray beard?
1524
01:09:05,401 --> 01:09:06,201
What was that?
1525
01:09:06,234 --> 01:09:07,567
The gentleman
with the gray beard?
1526
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:09,201
[laughing]
1527
01:09:09,234 --> 01:09:10,434
What?
1528
01:09:10,467 --> 01:09:12,667
I-Is it the man with the gray beard
you're pointing to?
1529
01:09:12,700 --> 01:09:14,401
Yes.
1530
01:09:14,434 --> 01:09:15,568
The record may reflect
1531
01:09:15,601 --> 01:09:16,934
that he has identified
the defendant.
1532
01:09:16,967 --> 01:09:18,600
[rooster crows]
1533
01:09:21,466 --> 01:09:22,700
Come on.
1534
01:09:22,733 --> 01:09:24,266
♪♪
1535
01:09:29,067 --> 01:09:30,433
Come on.
1536
01:09:34,767 --> 01:09:36,466
[turkeys gobbling]
1537
01:09:42,034 --> 01:09:43,900
[dogs barking]
1538
01:10:25,935 --> 01:10:27,700
[Judge] You may proceed,
Mr. Cerio.
1539
01:10:27,733 --> 01:10:28,901
Thank you, Your Honor.
1540
01:10:28,935 --> 01:10:30,301
Would you state
your full name, please?
1541
01:10:30,334 --> 01:10:33,401
My full name is Humphrey Don
Germaniuk.
1542
01:10:33,434 --> 01:10:39,366
H-U-M-P-H-R-E-Y-
D-O-N-G-E-R-M-A-N-I-U-K.
1543
01:10:40,534 --> 01:10:43,834
And could you tell us
what a Medical Examiner is?
1544
01:10:43,868 --> 01:10:46,868
A Medical Examiner
is a licensed doctor
1545
01:10:46,901 --> 01:10:50,901
whose function it is to
determine a cause of death,
1546
01:10:50,935 --> 01:10:54,000
a manner of death,
and to investigate death.
1547
01:10:54,034 --> 01:10:55,934
A cause of death
1548
01:10:55,967 --> 01:10:58,367
is any event that, ultimately,
1549
01:10:58,401 --> 01:11:01,701
is responsible
for the individual's demise.
1550
01:11:01,734 --> 01:11:05,434
The manner of death
are the circumstances
1551
01:11:05,467 --> 01:11:08,267
in which the cause of death
took place.
1552
01:11:08,301 --> 01:11:11,768
Let's take an example
of an unnatural death,
1553
01:11:11,801 --> 01:11:13,934
where there's an individual
lying on the floor
1554
01:11:13,967 --> 01:11:15,701
of his or her home.
1555
01:11:15,734 --> 01:11:18,434
The individual is lying in a
pool of blood.
1556
01:11:18,467 --> 01:11:21,334
There's a revolver
next to the individual.
1557
01:11:21,367 --> 01:11:23,901
There's a hole
in the individual's head.
1558
01:11:23,935 --> 01:11:26,167
The cause of death,
more likely than not,
1559
01:11:26,201 --> 01:11:28,568
would be gunshot wound
to the head.
1560
01:11:28,601 --> 01:11:30,100
But what is the manner?
1561
01:11:30,134 --> 01:11:33,034
What are the circumstances
surrounding that?
1562
01:11:33,067 --> 01:11:35,501
Did someone shoot him or her?
1563
01:11:35,534 --> 01:11:37,067
Did they take their own life?
1564
01:11:37,100 --> 01:11:38,701
Or was it an accident?
1565
01:11:38,734 --> 01:11:41,568
So, even though we may have
the same cause of death,
1566
01:11:41,601 --> 01:11:43,367
the manner may vary.
1567
01:11:43,401 --> 01:11:45,634
Suppose this individual
was a businessman,
1568
01:11:45,668 --> 01:11:47,401
whose business was failing.
1569
01:11:47,434 --> 01:11:49,067
He was in financial troubles.
1570
01:11:49,100 --> 01:11:51,534
Recent divorce,
perhaps depressed.
1571
01:11:51,568 --> 01:11:53,601
There's no evidence of
breaking into the house,
1572
01:11:53,634 --> 01:11:56,267
no evidence of rummaging,
no money taken.
1573
01:11:56,301 --> 01:11:57,934
Then, more likely than not,
we begin to think
1574
01:11:57,967 --> 01:12:00,101
that this could be a suicide.
1575
01:12:00,135 --> 01:12:04,401
Let's take the same body,
same pool of blood, same gun,
1576
01:12:04,434 --> 01:12:07,101
same floor, same building.
1577
01:12:07,135 --> 01:12:10,168
The cause of death is still
gunshot wound to the head,
1578
01:12:10,202 --> 01:12:14,034
but if we find out that the
house has been broken into,
1579
01:12:14,067 --> 01:12:15,668
money has been taken,
1580
01:12:15,701 --> 01:12:17,935
the drawers have been
rummaged and disheveled,
1581
01:12:17,968 --> 01:12:19,668
then we begin to suspect
that perhaps
1582
01:12:19,701 --> 01:12:21,633
this could be a homicide.
1583
01:12:25,334 --> 01:12:28,434
[heavy breathing]
1584
01:12:28,467 --> 01:12:30,934
Mr. Cerio will ask you
some questions, Mr. Ward.
1585
01:12:32,401 --> 01:12:36,900
Mr. Ward,
c-can you hear me okay?
1586
01:12:38,301 --> 01:12:41,900
Can you- can you tell us,
sir, your full name?
1587
01:12:41,934 --> 01:12:43,967
Lyman George Ward.
1588
01:12:44,800 --> 01:12:46,934
How old are you, sir?
1589
01:12:46,967 --> 01:12:48,567
How old are you?
1590
01:12:48,600 --> 01:12:50,167
Sixty-six.
1591
01:12:50,201 --> 01:12:51,600
Sixty-six?
1592
01:12:55,634 --> 01:12:59,034
Do you remember
when William died?
1593
01:12:59,934 --> 01:13:01,967
I remember when he died.
1594
01:13:04,633 --> 01:13:06,700
Where were you?
1595
01:13:10,534 --> 01:13:12,067
When he died?
- Yes.
1596
01:13:12,100 --> 01:13:14,501
I must have been in bed.
1597
01:13:14,534 --> 01:13:16,000
- Must have been in bed.
- Huh?
1598
01:13:16,034 --> 01:13:17,434
Must have been in bed.
1599
01:13:17,467 --> 01:13:20,000
[unintelligible mumbling]
1600
01:13:20,034 --> 01:13:21,534
Oh.
1601
01:13:21,568 --> 01:13:23,834
You've answered the question,
Mr. Ward.
1602
01:13:23,868 --> 01:13:25,434
I-I believe his answer was,
"Must have been in bed."
1603
01:13:25,467 --> 01:13:27,400
Is that your answer?
- Mm-hmm.
1604
01:13:28,667 --> 01:13:33,100
Mr. Ward,
before your brother died...
1605
01:13:34,300 --> 01:13:37,666
...was there ever any
conversation...
1606
01:13:38,900 --> 01:13:40,600
...about...
1607
01:13:44,434 --> 01:13:45,967
....ending Bill's life?
1608
01:13:46,000 --> 01:13:46,833
No.
1609
01:13:47,834 --> 01:13:49,967
You never had that
conversation with anyone?
1610
01:13:50,000 --> 01:13:51,334
No.
1611
01:13:53,434 --> 01:13:55,868
Now, this is entitled,
1612
01:13:55,901 --> 01:13:57,900
The Supporting Deposition...
1613
01:13:58,701 --> 01:14:02,968
...and it's dated
June 6th, 1990.
1614
01:14:03,001 --> 01:14:07,234
It reads, "On June 6th, 1990...
1615
01:14:08,134 --> 01:14:11,267
...at 9:30 P.M.
1616
01:14:11,901 --> 01:14:15,801
I... Lyman George Ward,
1617
01:14:15,834 --> 01:14:18,201
state the following:
1618
01:14:18,235 --> 01:14:22,401
Question, "Do you know
how William died?"
1619
01:14:22,434 --> 01:14:24,933
The answer,
"He was smothered."
1620
01:14:25,901 --> 01:14:30,067
Question, "Do you know
who smothered him?"
1621
01:14:30,100 --> 01:14:31,934
The answer, "Delbert."
1622
01:14:31,968 --> 01:14:34,801
Question, "When did Delbert
tell you
1623
01:14:34,834 --> 01:14:36,901
that he smothered your
brother, William?"
1624
01:14:36,934 --> 01:14:39,067
The answer, "This morning,
at the barn."
1625
01:14:39,100 --> 01:14:41,100
[cough]
1626
01:14:43,401 --> 01:14:44,801
[mumbling]
1627
01:14:44,834 --> 01:14:46,934
And, sir, after hearing that,
1628
01:14:46,968 --> 01:14:49,933
do you wanna change
any of your testimony?
1629
01:14:53,267 --> 01:14:54,534
Yeah.
1630
01:14:54,567 --> 01:14:56,367
I'm sorry, Mr... Mr. Ward,
1631
01:14:56,401 --> 01:14:57,901
the Court Reporter can't hear you
1632
01:14:57,934 --> 01:14:59,401
if you have your arm-
elbow out,
1633
01:14:59,434 --> 01:15:02,801
but if you could turn and
face the jury, thank you.
1634
01:15:02,834 --> 01:15:04,667
Do you want to change
any of your testimony,
1635
01:15:04,701 --> 01:15:06,100
you were asked?
1636
01:15:08,768 --> 01:15:11,268
I won't be here too long.
1637
01:15:11,301 --> 01:15:13,101
His answer was, he wouldn't
be here too long.
1638
01:15:13,135 --> 01:15:15,067
Do you wanna change
any of your testimony?
1639
01:15:15,100 --> 01:15:16,600
Would you, John?
1640
01:15:18,034 --> 01:15:20,235
I-I'm sorry...
- You don't have to be.
1641
01:15:20,268 --> 01:15:24,701
Sir, Mr. Cerio was asking you
a question, Mr. Ward.
1642
01:15:24,734 --> 01:15:27,868
His question was, did you
want to change...
1643
01:15:27,901 --> 01:15:30,167
...any of your testimony?
1644
01:15:35,534 --> 01:15:36,400
Yeah.
1645
01:15:36,434 --> 01:15:38,200
The answer is yes.
1646
01:15:39,334 --> 01:15:41,234
What did you want to change
1647
01:15:41,267 --> 01:15:42,800
of your testimony, Mr. Ward?
1648
01:15:42,833 --> 01:15:44,334
[cough]
1649
01:15:48,567 --> 01:15:51,533
Well, all that I said
wasn't true, anyway.
1650
01:15:52,601 --> 01:15:55,834
What he said wasn't true,
anyway, was his answer.
1651
01:15:55,868 --> 01:15:58,167
Did you mean for that to be true
when you signed it?
1652
01:15:58,200 --> 01:15:59,533
No.
1653
01:16:01,367 --> 01:16:03,634
Ladies and gentlemen of the,
uh, jury,
1654
01:16:03,667 --> 01:16:06,434
we'll recess now, uh, and, uh,
1655
01:16:06,467 --> 01:16:07,534
enjoy the rest of the day.
1656
01:16:07,567 --> 01:16:09,400
We'll see you tomorrow morning.
1657
01:16:09,434 --> 01:16:10,633
♪♪
1658
01:16:26,001 --> 01:16:28,533
Good morning, Mr. Ward,
have a seat, please.
1659
01:16:40,868 --> 01:16:42,334
Wait just a moment.
1660
01:16:42,367 --> 01:16:43,601
[indistinct]
1661
01:16:43,634 --> 01:16:45,367
That's it.
1662
01:16:48,534 --> 01:16:52,267
You may continue the, uh,
direct examination.
1663
01:16:52,300 --> 01:16:53,667
Your Honor, if I may approach?
1664
01:16:53,701 --> 01:16:55,033
Yes, you may.
1665
01:16:55,934 --> 01:16:57,901
You tell me if you
can't hear me, okay?
1666
01:16:57,934 --> 01:17:00,267
I can't.
- You can't hear me?
1667
01:17:01,067 --> 01:17:03,100
[mumbling]
1668
01:17:05,335 --> 01:17:08,101
Y-You told us that this
was the statement that, uh,
1669
01:17:08,134 --> 01:17:11,368
you had given while you were
at the State Police barracks?
1670
01:17:11,401 --> 01:17:16,068
Question, "Do you know when Delbert
smothered your brother, William?"
1671
01:17:16,101 --> 01:17:18,901
"About six AM this morning."
1672
01:17:18,934 --> 01:17:20,534
Do you remember that question?
1673
01:17:20,567 --> 01:17:21,567
Yeah.
1674
01:17:21,601 --> 01:17:23,867
Do you remember
giving that answer?
1675
01:17:24,833 --> 01:17:26,400
No.
1676
01:17:34,667 --> 01:17:37,200
Sir, the question is,
1677
01:17:37,234 --> 01:17:38,567
"How do you know that Delbert
1678
01:17:38,601 --> 01:17:40,834
smothered your brother,
William?"
1679
01:17:40,868 --> 01:17:43,467
The answer, "He said he did."
1680
01:17:43,501 --> 01:17:44,701
Do you remember that question?
1681
01:17:44,734 --> 01:17:46,367
Yeah, but he didn't...
1682
01:17:46,400 --> 01:17:47,833
But, sir, do you remember
the question?
1683
01:17:47,867 --> 01:17:48,968
Yeah.
1684
01:17:49,001 --> 01:17:51,033
Do you remember giving that
answer, "Yes, he did.
1685
01:17:51,067 --> 01:17:52,133
He said he did?"
1686
01:17:52,167 --> 01:17:54,100
Yeah, but he didn't.
1687
01:17:56,601 --> 01:17:58,833
[man]
What did he say?
1688
01:17:58,867 --> 01:18:00,068
[coughing]
1689
01:18:00,101 --> 01:18:02,234
The answer was,
"He didn't."
1690
01:18:07,434 --> 01:18:11,300
I think, I think
the question is, uh...
1691
01:18:13,000 --> 01:18:14,666
Mr. Ward.
1692
01:18:15,868 --> 01:18:17,833
We'll take a ten minute recess.
1693
01:18:20,033 --> 01:18:21,766
The Jury may step aside.
1694
01:19:07,868 --> 01:19:09,534
Just makes you sick.
1695
01:19:09,567 --> 01:19:13,834
Cruelty to animals,
let alone human beings.
1696
01:19:13,868 --> 01:19:15,300
That's cruel!
1697
01:19:15,334 --> 01:19:16,968
He's illiterate, completely.
1698
01:19:17,001 --> 01:19:18,667
He can't even tell time.
1699
01:19:18,701 --> 01:19:20,534
Trying to get him to read
a goddamn thing
1700
01:19:20,567 --> 01:19:23,900
that Donnegan wrote, bullshit.
1701
01:19:23,933 --> 01:19:25,833
[dogs barking]
1702
01:19:28,501 --> 01:19:30,734
[cows mooing]
1703
01:19:30,767 --> 01:19:32,900
[Interviewer] The courthouse
the other day, how was that?
1704
01:19:32,933 --> 01:19:34,334
I went to pieces.
1705
01:19:34,367 --> 01:19:36,334
I all went to pieces.
1706
01:19:36,367 --> 01:19:38,234
Damn near died down there.
1707
01:19:39,634 --> 01:19:41,566
Yeah, we felt bad for you.
1708
01:19:43,767 --> 01:19:45,334
It's okay, Lyman.
1709
01:19:45,367 --> 01:19:46,600
It's over.
1710
01:19:50,068 --> 01:19:52,033
- I couldn't take it.
- No.
1711
01:20:00,034 --> 01:20:02,001
- Hey, Roscoe.
- Yeah?
1712
01:20:02,034 --> 01:20:03,867
Did you hear what happened
down at the courthouse?
1713
01:20:03,901 --> 01:20:05,600
- Yeah.
- To Lyman?
1714
01:20:05,634 --> 01:20:06,767
Yeah.
1715
01:20:06,801 --> 01:20:08,333
What- what'd you hear
about it?
1716
01:20:08,367 --> 01:20:10,167
He pretty near died.
1717
01:20:12,034 --> 01:20:13,801
Pretty near died.
1718
01:20:15,267 --> 01:20:16,767
♪♪
1719
01:20:36,234 --> 01:20:38,268
[Cognetti] Can you identify
that for us, Doctor?
1720
01:20:38,301 --> 01:20:44,268
Yes, we have one, two, three,
four, five containers
1721
01:20:44,301 --> 01:20:46,334
holding various specimens
1722
01:20:46,368 --> 01:20:51,201
from Medical Examiner
case number 900391.
1723
01:20:51,234 --> 01:20:52,334
And who would that be?
1724
01:20:52,368 --> 01:20:54,634
That would be William Ward.
1725
01:20:56,468 --> 01:20:59,034
Can you identify that for us?
1726
01:20:59,067 --> 01:21:01,701
People's exhibit 21
1727
01:21:01,735 --> 01:21:06,268
identifies the head
and regions of the neck
1728
01:21:06,301 --> 01:21:09,601
of case number 90 dash 0391.
1729
01:21:09,635 --> 01:21:11,600
How is it that you can
identify this?
1730
01:21:11,634 --> 01:21:13,268
The identifying numbers
1731
01:21:13,301 --> 01:21:16,301
are right here
on the front part of the neck.
1732
01:21:16,334 --> 01:21:19,201
Doctor, after having photographed there,
what did you do?
1733
01:21:19,234 --> 01:21:21,535
I then continued examining the eyes.
1734
01:21:21,568 --> 01:21:24,134
I looked at the upper eyelids
and lower eyelids,
1735
01:21:24,168 --> 01:21:25,368
and in the lower eyelids,
1736
01:21:25,401 --> 01:21:27,101
I noticed what
are called petechiae.
1737
01:21:27,134 --> 01:21:29,535
I also examined
the dental arches.
1738
01:21:29,568 --> 01:21:32,934
Uh, the individual, uh,
had no teeth,
1739
01:21:32,967 --> 01:21:35,568
and what I noticed was,
on the upper dental arch,
1740
01:21:35,601 --> 01:21:39,034
on the right side, there was
also these diffuse petechiae,
1741
01:21:39,067 --> 01:21:41,634
or pinpoint blood spots.
1742
01:21:41,667 --> 01:21:43,700
All throughout the windpipe,
1743
01:21:43,734 --> 01:21:46,201
beginning with the little
blade on top,
1744
01:21:46,234 --> 01:21:49,301
called the epiglottis,
down to the windpipe,
1745
01:21:49,334 --> 01:21:50,867
where it breaks in half
1746
01:21:50,901 --> 01:21:53,034
to feed the right lung
and the left lung,
1747
01:21:53,067 --> 01:21:54,801
had multiple, uh,
1748
01:21:54,834 --> 01:21:58,667
numerous of these red
pinpoint bloody spots.
1749
01:21:58,700 --> 01:22:01,967
With that diffuse spray
of petechiae,
1750
01:22:02,001 --> 01:22:04,634
the large numbers of
petechiae that were there
1751
01:22:04,667 --> 01:22:06,434
and their distribution,
1752
01:22:06,468 --> 01:22:08,700
I first began to think
that we may be dealing with
1753
01:22:08,734 --> 01:22:11,534
an asphyxial type of death.
1754
01:22:11,567 --> 01:22:12,835
In my opinion,
1755
01:22:12,868 --> 01:22:15,934
based upon a reasonable
degree of medical certainty,
1756
01:22:15,967 --> 01:22:18,834
this is not a case
of asphyxiation.
1757
01:22:18,867 --> 01:22:22,867
There are, uh, four
significant, uh, findings
1758
01:22:22,901 --> 01:22:28,600
that I would look for
in a case of asphyxiation,
1759
01:22:28,634 --> 01:22:31,300
that are not present
in this case.
1760
01:22:31,333 --> 01:22:32,667
No cyanosis,
1761
01:22:32,700 --> 01:22:34,434
no increased liquidity of blood,
1762
01:22:34,468 --> 01:22:37,034
no injuries
around the nose, mouth,
1763
01:22:37,067 --> 01:22:39,634
gums, chin, tongue,
1764
01:22:39,667 --> 01:22:41,433
and, um,
1765
01:22:41,467 --> 01:22:44,034
the absence of...
1766
01:22:44,067 --> 01:22:48,201
even the slightest suggestion
of regurgitation.
1767
01:22:48,234 --> 01:22:50,834
When you are being asphyxiated,
1768
01:22:50,867 --> 01:22:53,767
you are struggling
and gasping for air,
1769
01:22:53,801 --> 01:22:55,467
food is gonna come back up
on you,
1770
01:22:55,500 --> 01:22:56,700
you're gonna start retching.
1771
01:22:56,734 --> 01:22:58,967
There is none of that,
whatsoever.
1772
01:22:59,001 --> 01:23:00,034
Zero.
1773
01:23:01,067 --> 01:23:03,133
[metal clattering]
1774
01:23:15,567 --> 01:23:17,133
[clearing throat]
1775
01:23:20,467 --> 01:23:21,634
[quiet shot]
1776
01:23:21,667 --> 01:23:23,634
[pig squealing]
1777
01:23:32,467 --> 01:23:34,600
Roll over, goddamn you.
1778
01:24:43,901 --> 01:24:45,634
Delbert, you wanna grab me
that meat cleaver
1779
01:24:45,668 --> 01:24:47,835
and knife sharpener
out the front passenger seat?
1780
01:24:47,868 --> 01:24:50,667
You have to get in my door,
that one's locked.
1781
01:24:50,700 --> 01:24:53,467
[motor whirring]
1782
01:25:30,167 --> 01:25:31,767
Thanks, Moses.
1783
01:25:35,701 --> 01:25:37,601
[Cognetti] Doctor, it's true,
is it not,
1784
01:25:37,634 --> 01:25:39,401
that at the conclusion
of your internal
1785
01:25:39,434 --> 01:25:42,468
and external examination,
you could not say,
1786
01:25:42,501 --> 01:25:45,900
with a required degree
of medical certainty,
1787
01:25:45,934 --> 01:25:48,267
the cause or the manner of death?
1788
01:25:48,301 --> 01:25:49,633
That is correct.
1789
01:25:49,667 --> 01:25:51,235
By that, I mean to say,
1790
01:25:51,268 --> 01:25:54,167
you couldn't, certainly with
any degree of-of certainty,
1791
01:25:54,201 --> 01:25:55,800
indicate that it was a homicide.
1792
01:25:55,834 --> 01:25:57,267
That is correct.
1793
01:25:57,301 --> 01:25:59,267
But now, you're talking
with Mr. Cerio,
1794
01:25:59,301 --> 01:26:00,801
and your notes indicate
1795
01:26:00,835 --> 01:26:03,800
that you tell him that I
cannot rule out homicide.
1796
01:26:03,834 --> 01:26:05,968
Am I right?
- That is correct.
1797
01:26:06,001 --> 01:26:09,234
Once you got to the scene,
Doctor, uh,
1798
01:26:09,267 --> 01:26:11,434
were not you advised,
immediately,
1799
01:26:11,468 --> 01:26:13,600
to call the State Police
barracks in Oneida?
1800
01:26:13,633 --> 01:26:14,967
We were.
1801
01:26:15,000 --> 01:26:16,634
And, at the conclusion
of this call,
1802
01:26:16,668 --> 01:26:19,634
did he not tell you
that Delbert had confessed
1803
01:26:19,668 --> 01:26:21,633
to the killing of his brother?
1804
01:26:23,600 --> 01:26:24,567
Yes.
1805
01:26:25,434 --> 01:26:28,167
So that death certificate,
Doctor,
1806
01:26:28,201 --> 01:26:32,201
came about as a result
of your learning
1807
01:26:32,234 --> 01:26:34,668
that Mr. Ward had confessed
1808
01:26:34,701 --> 01:26:37,167
to the crime of murder
in the second degree?
1809
01:26:37,201 --> 01:26:38,301
No.
1810
01:26:38,334 --> 01:26:40,734
Doctor, if you had never learned
1811
01:26:40,768 --> 01:26:44,568
that Mr. Ward...
had confessed
1812
01:26:44,601 --> 01:26:46,834
to the crime of murder
in the second degree,
1813
01:26:46,867 --> 01:26:48,467
would you...
1814
01:26:50,135 --> 01:26:54,067
...on June 7th, have changed
that death certificate?
1815
01:26:54,101 --> 01:26:55,234
No.
1816
01:26:55,267 --> 01:26:57,101
So, let me go back then, Doctor.
1817
01:26:57,134 --> 01:27:00,468
That death certificate
was changed
1818
01:27:00,501 --> 01:27:03,834
because you now learned
1819
01:27:03,867 --> 01:27:06,267
that Mr. Ward had confessed
1820
01:27:06,301 --> 01:27:09,068
to the crime of murder
in the second degree?
1821
01:27:09,102 --> 01:27:12,468
But that was not the only
piece of information.
1822
01:27:12,501 --> 01:27:14,634
We know about the petechiae.
1823
01:27:14,668 --> 01:27:15,800
Correct?
- Correct.
1824
01:27:15,834 --> 01:27:17,334
But we know, Doctor,
1825
01:27:17,367 --> 01:27:20,000
as we talked about
innumerable times yesterday,
1826
01:27:20,034 --> 01:27:22,134
that at that stage,
1827
01:27:22,167 --> 01:27:24,967
there were a host of reasons
for petechiae.
1828
01:27:25,170 --> 01:27:26,571
That is correct.
1829
01:27:26,604 --> 01:27:28,437
So, we'll put that aside.
1830
01:27:28,471 --> 01:27:31,005
Because, as you just indicated,
1831
01:27:31,038 --> 01:27:33,904
that would not
have been enough...
1832
01:27:33,938 --> 01:27:37,004
...to warrant a change
in that death certificate
1833
01:27:37,037 --> 01:27:38,304
on June 7th.
1834
01:27:38,337 --> 01:27:39,937
That's correct.
1835
01:27:39,970 --> 01:27:42,171
So again, let me ask you.
1836
01:27:42,205 --> 01:27:47,903
That death certificate
was changed, on June 7th,
1837
01:27:47,937 --> 01:27:50,138
for the sole reason
1838
01:27:50,171 --> 01:27:53,571
that Mr. Ward had confessed
to the crime.
1839
01:27:53,604 --> 01:27:56,571
Isn't that the reason,
on June 7th,
1840
01:27:56,604 --> 01:27:58,737
that that death certificate
was changed?
1841
01:27:58,770 --> 01:28:00,170
No.
1842
01:28:01,171 --> 01:28:03,170
[Dr. Wecht] In my opinion,
the cause of death
1843
01:28:03,204 --> 01:28:08,271
of Mr. William Ward
was right heart failure,
1844
01:28:08,304 --> 01:28:11,838
resulting in pulmonary edema,
1845
01:28:11,871 --> 01:28:15,903
the, uh, collection of a
substantial amount of fluid
1846
01:28:15,937 --> 01:28:17,470
in the lungs.
1847
01:28:18,704 --> 01:28:21,938
[Delbert]
I tried to tell him I didn't do it...
1848
01:28:21,971 --> 01:28:26,304
...and Geen Rifenberg
and "Kellogg" said I did.
1849
01:28:26,337 --> 01:28:27,104
[Cerio]
Okay.
1850
01:28:27,137 --> 01:28:28,671
They kept right after me
1851
01:28:28,704 --> 01:28:30,804
and said if I cooperated
with the police,
1852
01:28:30,838 --> 01:28:32,137
they'd go much easier on me.
1853
01:28:32,170 --> 01:28:33,738
Mm-hmm.
1854
01:28:33,771 --> 01:28:36,304
So, finally, I thought
if I cooperated with 'em,
1855
01:28:36,337 --> 01:28:37,536
I'd get out of there
and get home.
1856
01:28:37,570 --> 01:28:38,504
Okay.
1857
01:28:38,537 --> 01:28:39,937
But I didn't.
- You didn't?
1858
01:28:39,970 --> 01:28:40,904
No.
1859
01:28:40,938 --> 01:28:42,271
You were gonna cooperate
with them?
1860
01:28:42,304 --> 01:28:45,904
Yes, and Mr. Rifenburg
is the one who showed me
1861
01:28:45,938 --> 01:28:49,437
how I put my hand over
William's mouth and nose.
1862
01:28:49,471 --> 01:28:50,938
Uh-huh.
1863
01:28:50,971 --> 01:28:52,271
And that happened in that room?
1864
01:28:52,304 --> 01:28:53,571
That happened in that room.
1865
01:28:53,604 --> 01:28:55,304
It's not that you showed him
how it happened?
1866
01:28:55,337 --> 01:28:57,970
No, I didn't how him.
He showed me.
1867
01:28:59,672 --> 01:29:03,070
Mr. Ward, what other kind of shows
do you watch besides Westerns?
1868
01:29:03,104 --> 01:29:05,070
Oh, some of the police stories.
1869
01:29:05,104 --> 01:29:06,838
Police stories?
- Mm-hmm.
1870
01:29:06,871 --> 01:29:08,271
What kind of police story shows?
1871
01:29:08,304 --> 01:29:10,237
Like "Matlock" there
and "Heat of the Night."
1872
01:29:10,271 --> 01:29:12,638
That's about the only two.
1873
01:29:12,671 --> 01:29:13,970
Okay, ever watch "Hunter?"
1874
01:29:14,004 --> 01:29:16,005
No.
- Never saw "Hunter?"
1875
01:29:16,038 --> 01:29:18,337
A couple times, a little bit,
I-I didn't care for it.
1876
01:29:18,371 --> 01:29:20,671
Didn't care for it?
Okay.
1877
01:29:20,704 --> 01:29:22,337
When do they come on,
during the day?
1878
01:29:22,371 --> 01:29:23,537
No.
1879
01:29:23,571 --> 01:29:25,237
What time do they come on?
- Eight o'clock at night.
1880
01:29:25,271 --> 01:29:27,004
"Matlock" comes on
Tuesday nights.
1881
01:29:27,037 --> 01:29:28,271
Tuesday nights.
1882
01:29:28,304 --> 01:29:29,903
What's "Matlock?"
1883
01:29:29,937 --> 01:29:31,737
Remember Andy Griffith?
1884
01:29:31,770 --> 01:29:32,771
Yep.
1885
01:29:32,804 --> 01:29:34,671
That's- that's the one
I'm talkin' about.
1886
01:29:34,704 --> 01:29:38,070
Only, he calls himself,
Ben Matlock, for the lawyer.
1887
01:29:38,104 --> 01:29:39,304
Oh, he's a lawyer now?
1888
01:29:39,337 --> 01:29:40,337
Right.
1889
01:29:40,371 --> 01:29:41,803
Do you know what kind
of a lawyer he is?
1890
01:29:41,837 --> 01:29:42,937
Defense lawyer.
1891
01:29:42,970 --> 01:29:44,571
He's not a prosecutor?
1892
01:29:44,604 --> 01:29:46,104
He's a de-defense lawyer?
1893
01:29:46,137 --> 01:29:47,337
He's a defense lawyer, I think.
1894
01:29:47,371 --> 01:29:48,170
Okay.
1895
01:29:49,204 --> 01:29:51,271
I know he gets into a lot
of them murder trials.
1896
01:29:51,304 --> 01:29:52,571
Mm-hmm.
1897
01:29:52,604 --> 01:29:54,104
You ever watch
"Wheel of Fortune?"
1898
01:29:54,137 --> 01:29:55,971
Yes, I watch that some nights.
1899
01:29:56,005 --> 01:29:58,604
Do you know, uh, the girl
who's on "Wheel of Fortune?"
1900
01:29:58,638 --> 01:30:00,204
Amanda White.
1901
01:30:01,803 --> 01:30:03,938
And, uh...
1902
01:30:03,971 --> 01:30:06,170
...any other kind of shows
you watch?
1903
01:30:06,204 --> 01:30:08,271
Oh, yes, I watch that
"Jeopardy."
1904
01:30:08,304 --> 01:30:09,471
"Jeopardy?"
- Mm-hmm.
1905
01:30:09,504 --> 01:30:11,071
You try to answer
some of the questions?
1906
01:30:11,105 --> 01:30:12,870
Some of 'em, but I don't get
very far on 'em.
1907
01:30:12,903 --> 01:30:14,336
No? Okay.
1908
01:30:15,337 --> 01:30:17,071
I want to show you something,
Mr. Ward.
1909
01:30:17,105 --> 01:30:19,571
This is what's marked
as People's 19.
1910
01:30:19,604 --> 01:30:20,671
Can you take a look at that
for me?
1911
01:30:20,704 --> 01:30:21,771
I can't see it.
- Can't see it.
1912
01:30:21,804 --> 01:30:23,104
- No.
- You can't see this?
1913
01:30:23,137 --> 01:30:24,337
No, not without my glasses.
1914
01:30:24,371 --> 01:30:25,803
I see.
1915
01:30:27,005 --> 01:30:28,504
You can't read any of this?
- No.
1916
01:30:28,537 --> 01:30:29,938
Not at all?
- No.
1917
01:30:29,971 --> 01:30:32,803
You didn't bring your glasses?
- No, I didn't bring 'em.
1918
01:30:32,837 --> 01:30:34,271
They's no good anyway.
1919
01:30:34,304 --> 01:30:35,470
- I see.
1920
01:30:36,771 --> 01:30:38,638
Did you ever want your own bed?
1921
01:30:38,671 --> 01:30:40,471
Sometimes, but I didn't have it.
1922
01:30:40,504 --> 01:30:41,803
Ever want your own room?
1923
01:30:41,837 --> 01:30:43,303
Sometimes.
1924
01:30:44,471 --> 01:30:46,471
Did it bother you when
William would get up
1925
01:30:46,504 --> 01:30:47,838
in the middle of the night?
1926
01:30:47,871 --> 01:30:49,171
Well, sometimes he'd holler
at me,
1927
01:30:49,205 --> 01:30:50,937
tell me it was time to get up
and go get the cows
1928
01:30:50,970 --> 01:30:52,237
and put them in to milk them.
1929
01:30:52,271 --> 01:30:53,871
Go do the chores?
- Mm-hmm.
1930
01:30:53,904 --> 01:30:55,638
But it wasn't time?
- No.
1931
01:30:55,671 --> 01:30:57,471
So, he'd wake you up?
- He'd still wake you up.
1932
01:30:57,504 --> 01:30:59,171
Yeah.
1933
01:30:59,205 --> 01:31:01,337
And he'd do that a couple of times
during the night, wouldn't he?
1934
01:31:01,371 --> 01:31:02,336
Some nights.
1935
01:31:03,437 --> 01:31:05,237
So, you wouldn't get
too much sleep, would you?
1936
01:31:05,271 --> 01:31:06,604
Not all the while.
1937
01:31:06,638 --> 01:31:09,504
Will was having some problem
holding his water, wasn't he?
1938
01:31:09,537 --> 01:31:11,471
Yes, he couldn't hold it good.
1939
01:31:11,504 --> 01:31:12,603
He'd wake you up, wouldn't he?
1940
01:31:12,637 --> 01:31:14,337
Sometimes.
1941
01:31:14,371 --> 01:31:16,671
Now, you said that, uh,
1942
01:31:16,704 --> 01:31:18,903
Bill had the headaches and
the stomachaches, right?
1943
01:31:18,937 --> 01:31:19,938
Right.
1944
01:31:19,971 --> 01:31:21,771
Did he ever say anything
to you about, uh,
1945
01:31:21,804 --> 01:31:23,738
if he died, what would happen?
1946
01:31:23,771 --> 01:31:26,471
Yes, he said, some morning,
I wasn't gonna wake up and...
1947
01:31:26,504 --> 01:31:29,404
[stammering] one of us would
be arrested for his murder.
1948
01:31:29,437 --> 01:31:31,504
That's what he told you?
- That's what he told me.
1949
01:31:31,537 --> 01:31:33,904
Told me, told me outdoors.
1950
01:31:33,938 --> 01:31:35,571
- Told you outdoors, he did?
- Mm-hmm.
1951
01:31:35,604 --> 01:31:37,104
When did he tell you that?
1952
01:31:38,205 --> 01:31:40,837
Well, I don't know,
must've been April or May.
1953
01:31:44,005 --> 01:31:46,204
He said that he was gonna die
some night?
1954
01:31:46,237 --> 01:31:47,604
That's what he said.
1955
01:31:47,638 --> 01:31:49,638
And that, uh,
1956
01:31:49,671 --> 01:31:51,970
one of you would be arrested
for his murder?
1957
01:31:52,004 --> 01:31:53,304
Yes.
- That's what he said?
1958
01:31:53,337 --> 01:31:54,837
That's what he said.
1959
01:31:55,904 --> 01:31:56,904
Would you raise your hands, sir,
1960
01:31:56,938 --> 01:31:58,638
and show those to
the jury, please.
1961
01:31:58,671 --> 01:32:00,171
Thank you, sir.
1962
01:32:00,205 --> 01:32:02,770
[Judge]
The record should reflect he's done that.
1963
01:32:02,803 --> 01:32:04,137
♪♪
1964
01:32:07,838 --> 01:32:09,970
In case, uh, Delbert
goes to jail,
1965
01:32:10,004 --> 01:32:12,937
or something happens to him,
1966
01:32:12,970 --> 01:32:14,304
we had to make out a will,
1967
01:32:14,337 --> 01:32:16,838
so that the stuff would go
where he wanted it to go,
1968
01:32:16,871 --> 01:32:18,604
and not where the
State wants it to go,
1969
01:32:18,638 --> 01:32:21,138
and the way things have been
going against us all the way
1970
01:32:21,171 --> 01:32:25,238
so far, there's a real good
possibility of it.
1971
01:32:25,272 --> 01:32:27,537
It's like I explained to
Delbert, didn't I, Delbert?
1972
01:32:27,571 --> 01:32:28,537
I didn't...
1973
01:32:28,571 --> 01:32:29,771
You explained it to me.
1974
01:32:29,804 --> 01:32:31,571
...tell him that things
looked good or rosy.
1975
01:32:31,604 --> 01:32:33,405
I told him there's a damn
good looking chance
1976
01:32:33,438 --> 01:32:35,937
that he's gonna go to prison
for something he didn't do.
1977
01:32:37,371 --> 01:32:39,803
I don't feel good about it.
1978
01:32:39,837 --> 01:32:41,536
I may go to jail.
1979
01:32:42,537 --> 01:32:44,104
I may not live long.
1980
01:32:47,138 --> 01:32:49,005
What type of person did the
State Police believe
1981
01:32:49,038 --> 01:32:51,404
they were bringing to the
barracks that night?
1982
01:32:51,437 --> 01:32:54,170
I would submit, that they
felt they were bringing
1983
01:32:54,204 --> 01:32:57,237
a bunch of queer old farmers,
1984
01:32:57,271 --> 01:33:00,671
who lived like animals, who
were stupid...
1985
01:33:00,704 --> 01:33:03,671
...and ignorant, without
a friend in the world.
1986
01:33:03,704 --> 01:33:05,037
Do you really wanna believe
1987
01:33:05,070 --> 01:33:07,504
that the New York State Police,
1988
01:33:07,537 --> 01:33:11,437
the Medical Examiners
of Onondaga County,
1989
01:33:11,471 --> 01:33:15,304
decided to pick on Delbert Ward
1990
01:33:15,337 --> 01:33:16,638
for no other reason than,
1991
01:33:16,671 --> 01:33:18,237
"Let's come up with a homicide.
1992
01:33:18,271 --> 01:33:19,738
Let's come up with a murder,
1993
01:33:19,771 --> 01:33:23,237
and let's pick out
that man to do it."
1994
01:33:23,271 --> 01:33:25,804
We know him to be educably,
1995
01:33:25,838 --> 01:33:29,603
mentally retarded with
a schizoid personality.
1996
01:33:30,704 --> 01:33:33,272
William was 64 years of age,
ladies and gentlemen.
1997
01:33:33,305 --> 01:33:38,738
He died a natural death in
his sleep from heart failure,
1998
01:33:38,771 --> 01:33:42,070
the most common form of
death of a man that age.
1999
01:33:42,104 --> 01:33:43,837
You, ladies and gentlemen,
2000
01:33:43,870 --> 01:33:45,536
saw the defendant testify.
2001
01:33:47,871 --> 01:33:50,204
You make the assessment
as to whether or not...
2002
01:33:53,704 --> 01:33:55,804
...he's an
intelligent fellow.
2003
01:33:55,838 --> 01:33:58,870
Yeah, are there some
social deprivations?
2004
01:33:58,903 --> 01:34:00,304
Yes.
2005
01:34:00,337 --> 01:34:02,637
I don't think you
can dispute that.
2006
01:34:02,671 --> 01:34:05,871
Does this person
appear to simply be
2007
01:34:05,904 --> 01:34:10,204
a person with an IQ of 63 and
educably, mentally retarded?
2008
01:34:10,237 --> 01:34:12,404
Or does it appear to be higher?
2009
01:34:12,437 --> 01:34:15,637
There is no independent
medical proof which,
2010
01:34:15,671 --> 01:34:18,804
standing alone without
that confession,
2011
01:34:18,838 --> 01:34:23,637
says that William died
as a result of a murder.
2012
01:34:23,671 --> 01:34:26,103
The only thing that has been
given to you people
2013
01:34:26,137 --> 01:34:28,204
is this alleged confession.
2014
01:34:29,270 --> 01:34:31,271
Taken from a man
2015
01:34:31,305 --> 01:34:36,003
whose very appearance cries
out for special treatment.
2016
01:34:39,171 --> 01:34:42,305
As expected, both sides gave
strong closing arguments,
2017
01:34:42,338 --> 01:34:44,537
and after three weeks
of emotional testimony,
2018
01:34:44,571 --> 01:34:45,871
the fate of Delbert Ward
2019
01:34:45,904 --> 01:34:47,871
now rests in
the hands of the jury.
2020
01:34:47,904 --> 01:34:49,870
Paula Garell, Channel 3 News.
2021
01:34:51,671 --> 01:34:55,870
Um, I -I wanna say the jury
is now deliberating.
2022
01:34:55,903 --> 01:34:57,471
♪♪
2023
01:35:05,704 --> 01:35:06,838
How's Mr. Ward doing?
2024
01:35:06,871 --> 01:35:09,004
- He's fine.
- Nervous?
2025
01:35:09,038 --> 01:35:11,404
He's as nervous
as any of us, I'm sure.
2026
01:35:13,037 --> 01:35:14,471
Is that it?
2027
01:35:14,504 --> 01:35:15,771
Thanks, Ralph.
2028
01:35:15,804 --> 01:35:19,404
[faint chatter]
2029
01:35:23,637 --> 01:35:24,803
[coughing]
2030
01:35:32,371 --> 01:35:34,505
[Male Reporter] Time for an update,
now, on tonight's top stories.
2031
01:35:34,538 --> 01:35:36,305
[Female Reporter]
First, go live to Christie Casciano
2032
01:35:36,338 --> 01:35:38,238
at the Delbert Ward
trial in Wampsville.
2033
01:35:38,271 --> 01:35:40,438
Christie, what's happened
over the last hour?
2034
01:35:40,472 --> 01:35:43,637
Well, since we last talked,
the jury left, as we said,
2035
01:35:43,671 --> 01:35:46,171
for a dinner break, and the
verdict has not been quick
2036
01:35:46,205 --> 01:35:49,304
in coming, as some courtroom
observers have predicted.
2037
01:35:49,337 --> 01:35:50,971
The jury has the task
2038
01:35:51,004 --> 01:35:53,370
of deciding whether Delbert
Ward committed murder.
2039
01:35:53,404 --> 01:35:55,337
Whether he suffocated his brother
2040
01:35:55,370 --> 01:35:57,437
on their Stockbridge
farm last June.
2041
01:35:57,471 --> 01:36:00,205
The jury got the case
at 11:30 this morning.
2042
01:36:00,238 --> 01:36:02,170
Since that time, they've been
weighing evidence,
2043
01:36:02,204 --> 01:36:03,871
sifting through testimony,
2044
01:36:03,904 --> 01:36:06,304
and they've been at
it for about six hours.
2045
01:36:06,337 --> 01:36:08,237
They left the
courtroom, as we said,
2046
01:36:08,270 --> 01:36:10,037
about a half hour ago,
six o'clock.
2047
01:36:10,070 --> 01:36:11,171
They're on a dinner break.
2048
01:36:11,205 --> 01:36:13,471
They're expected back
here at eight o'clock,
2049
01:36:13,504 --> 01:36:15,671
and we will be back here, too,
2050
01:36:15,704 --> 01:36:17,104
and bringing you
the latest at 11.
2051
01:36:17,138 --> 01:36:19,270
Right now, let's
go to Lisa Sweitzer
2052
01:36:19,304 --> 01:36:21,370
for more of today's top stories.
2053
01:36:22,504 --> 01:36:23,938
[Judge] Uh, ladies and
gentlemen, the, uh,
2054
01:36:23,971 --> 01:36:25,471
jury has advised the court
2055
01:36:25,504 --> 01:36:26,637
that they have reached a verdict,
2056
01:36:26,671 --> 01:36:29,438
and I now admonish all of
those here in the courtroom,
2057
01:36:29,472 --> 01:36:34,671
including spectators, that
you are to remain seated
2058
01:36:34,704 --> 01:36:36,704
throughout the entire
2059
01:36:36,737 --> 01:36:39,138
reporting of the
verdict procedure.
2060
01:36:39,171 --> 01:36:41,304
In the event that there
should be any violations
2061
01:36:41,337 --> 01:36:43,337
of that, I will
close the courtroom,
2062
01:36:43,370 --> 01:36:45,838
you will be escorted
from the courtroom,
2063
01:36:45,871 --> 01:36:48,305
and you can find about,
find out the verdict
2064
01:36:48,331 --> 01:36:50,497
by either reading about
it in the newspaper
2065
01:36:50,737 --> 01:36:52,704
or seeing it on television.
2066
01:36:52,737 --> 01:36:56,038
There are to be
no audible reactions
2067
01:36:56,071 --> 01:36:59,737
or emotional outbursts by
anyone in this room,
2068
01:36:59,771 --> 01:37:03,537
and I mean that, and if
there are any outbursts,
2069
01:37:03,570 --> 01:37:06,471
I'm gonna empty
the whole courtroom.
2070
01:37:06,505 --> 01:37:08,070
The jurors may return
to the courtroom.
2071
01:37:10,303 --> 01:37:11,370
[coughing]
2072
01:37:30,571 --> 01:37:33,871
Ladies and gentlemen of the
jury, I understand, uh, from
2073
01:37:33,904 --> 01:37:36,404
the court clerk, that the,
uh, jury has, in fact,
2074
01:37:36,437 --> 01:37:38,038
reached a verdict, and, uh,
2075
01:37:38,071 --> 01:37:40,337
- Mr. Broderick, is that so?
- Yes, sir.
2076
01:37:40,370 --> 01:37:41,405
All right.
2077
01:37:41,438 --> 01:37:43,836
The court attendant will
receive the card.
2078
01:37:55,204 --> 01:37:57,370
Mr, uh, Broderick, the, uh,
2079
01:37:57,404 --> 01:37:59,838
court has, uh, received the
2080
01:37:59,872 --> 01:38:02,470
verdict sheet, and I now ask
you, as the foreman of this
2081
01:38:02,504 --> 01:38:03,837
jury, have you, in fact,
2082
01:38:03,871 --> 01:38:05,837
reached a verdict in this case?
2083
01:38:05,871 --> 01:38:07,004
Yes, they have.
2084
01:38:07,038 --> 01:38:09,504
What is the verdict of this jury
2085
01:38:09,537 --> 01:38:10,837
in connection with the crime
2086
01:38:10,871 --> 01:38:12,571
of murder in the second degree?
2087
01:38:12,605 --> 01:38:15,771
Have you found the defendant
guilty or not guilty?
2088
01:38:15,804 --> 01:38:16,937
- Not guilty.
- Not guilty.
2089
01:38:16,971 --> 01:38:19,904
- Not guilty.
[crowd murmuring]
2090
01:38:19,937 --> 01:38:23,971
Ladies and gentlemen
of this jury, the, uh,
2091
01:38:24,004 --> 01:38:26,737
court had heard Mr. Broderick
announce that the verdict
2092
01:38:26,771 --> 01:38:30,038
is that of not guilty of
murder in the second degree.
2093
01:38:30,071 --> 01:38:31,804
I now ask all of you, uh,
2094
01:38:31,837 --> 01:38:34,237
is this your verdict,
so say you all?
2095
01:38:34,270 --> 01:38:35,405
[Jury]
Yes.
2096
01:38:35,438 --> 01:38:38,304
Mr. Ward, you are excused
now, and you can leave.
2097
01:38:38,338 --> 01:38:41,203
We'll ask the, uh,
media to step aside
2098
01:38:41,237 --> 01:38:42,404
so that you can leave.
2099
01:38:43,405 --> 01:38:44,671
Thank you very much,
ladies and gentlemen
2100
01:38:44,704 --> 01:38:45,937
for your respect and attention.
2101
01:38:45,971 --> 01:38:48,537
[applause]
2102
01:38:53,804 --> 01:38:54,837
God bless you.
2103
01:38:54,871 --> 01:38:55,971
[Male Reporter 1]
So, that smile says it all?
2104
01:38:56,004 --> 01:38:57,004
- Yup.
- Yup.
2105
01:38:57,038 --> 01:38:58,938
Thank all my friends.
2106
01:38:58,972 --> 01:39:00,704
[Female Reporter] What's next for you,
Delbert, back to the farm?
2107
01:39:00,737 --> 01:39:02,071
Back to the farm.
2108
01:39:02,104 --> 01:39:03,370
[Male Reporter 2]
How does it feel, Mr. Ward?
2109
01:39:03,404 --> 01:39:04,371
[Thurston]
You got it, buddy.
2110
01:39:04,405 --> 01:39:07,504
[Interviewer]
Harry, how do you feel?
2111
01:39:07,537 --> 01:39:09,203
My heart ain't
gone back down yet.
2112
01:39:09,237 --> 01:39:10,204
[laughing]
2113
01:39:10,238 --> 01:39:11,371
But I'll get it down by morning.
2114
01:39:11,405 --> 01:39:13,570
Did you think it was
gonna turn out this way?
2115
01:39:13,604 --> 01:39:15,971
The system works, don't it?
2116
01:39:16,004 --> 01:39:17,338
What do you think, Delbert?
2117
01:39:17,371 --> 01:39:19,370
I thought it might,
but I wasn't sure.
2118
01:39:19,404 --> 01:39:21,671
I'll get home as soon as I can.
2119
01:39:21,704 --> 01:39:24,504
I love you, babe.
Goodbye.
2120
01:39:24,537 --> 01:39:25,737
Thanks.
Bye.
2121
01:39:25,771 --> 01:39:26,771
[Interviewer]
How do you feel?
2122
01:39:26,804 --> 01:39:27,771
Damn.
Sh--.
2123
01:39:27,804 --> 01:39:29,303
How do I feel?
2124
01:39:29,337 --> 01:39:30,304
I'm very, very happy.
2125
01:39:30,338 --> 01:39:31,370
What's all this noise out here?
2126
01:39:31,404 --> 01:39:32,438
Looks like a wedding.
2127
01:39:32,471 --> 01:39:33,771
Are you kidding me,
they won't get to sleep
2128
01:39:33,804 --> 01:39:34,971
tonight and, uh...
Not in Munnsville.
2129
01:39:35,004 --> 01:39:36,071
Not in Munnsville.
2130
01:39:36,104 --> 01:39:37,570
You goin' to Disneyland now?
2131
01:39:37,604 --> 01:39:39,604
[sigh]
[laughing]
2132
01:39:39,637 --> 01:39:41,338
I listened to all
of the evidence,
2133
01:39:41,371 --> 01:39:43,304
and I could find no
solid evidence to prove
2134
01:39:43,338 --> 01:39:45,470
that even a crime
had been committed.
2135
01:39:45,504 --> 01:39:46,737
[woman]
Justice was done.
2136
01:39:46,771 --> 01:39:47,737
It was.
2137
01:39:47,771 --> 01:39:49,404
[woman]
Amen. Amen.
2138
01:39:49,437 --> 01:39:50,737
Oh Delbert, we're happy.
2139
01:39:50,771 --> 01:39:53,204
- We're happy for you!
- Thank you all.
2140
01:39:53,238 --> 01:39:55,370
- We're happy for you.
- We're all happy for you!
2141
01:39:55,404 --> 01:39:56,604
[voices fade out]
2142
01:39:58,237 --> 01:39:59,671
[birds chirping]
2143
01:40:01,937 --> 01:40:05,103
♪♪
2144
01:40:17,805 --> 01:40:20,203
[Interviewer] Do you think
there was any good in all of this?
2145
01:40:20,237 --> 01:40:22,037
Oh, yeah.
2146
01:40:22,070 --> 01:40:24,170
Yep, I do.
2147
01:40:25,971 --> 01:40:30,237
Well, uh, the way everybody
helped Delbert,
2148
01:40:32,771 --> 01:40:34,971
in the Munnsville
area and Stockbridge
2149
01:40:35,004 --> 01:40:36,270
and different places.
2150
01:40:37,970 --> 01:40:39,137
Yeah.
2151
01:40:39,170 --> 01:40:40,570
[car honking]
2152
01:40:42,003 --> 01:40:43,237
♪♪
2153
01:40:50,004 --> 01:40:52,437
I've been out visiting and
talking to my friends.
2154
01:40:53,737 --> 01:40:54,904
You got a lot of 'em now.
2155
01:40:54,937 --> 01:40:57,904
By gosh, Stockbridge diner
was full this morning.
2156
01:40:57,937 --> 01:40:59,571
I was gonna buy some
of my friends coffee,
2157
01:40:59,605 --> 01:41:01,804
and I didn't, they wouldn't
even let me buy it.
2158
01:41:01,837 --> 01:41:03,904
Wouldn't let me spend a nickel.
2159
01:41:03,937 --> 01:41:05,971
The lady and the man that
works at the diner up there,
2160
01:41:06,004 --> 01:41:07,171
took the money out
of their own pocket,
2161
01:41:07,204 --> 01:41:09,104
and paid for all of it.
2162
01:41:09,138 --> 01:41:12,037
Why don't you come
up this summer, Joe?
2163
01:41:12,070 --> 01:41:13,071
Sure.
2164
01:41:13,104 --> 01:41:14,470
When the nice green
leaves come out.
2165
01:41:14,504 --> 01:41:17,137
You and Bruce and Doug and Mike.
2166
01:41:18,204 --> 01:41:20,671
When the old leaves get out
and the green grass.
2167
01:41:20,704 --> 01:41:22,237
Come up and take some pictures.
2168
01:41:28,338 --> 01:41:30,804
What do you think
of all this now, Delbert?
2169
01:41:30,837 --> 01:41:33,337
Well, I'm glad it's over with.
2170
01:41:35,204 --> 01:41:37,038
I thank, thank all my friends
2171
01:41:37,071 --> 01:41:39,737
for all the support they gave me.
2172
01:41:39,771 --> 01:41:40,871
Did you ever know
you had so many friends?
2173
01:41:40,904 --> 01:41:42,203
Not so many.
2174
01:41:50,904 --> 01:41:52,604
[car honking]
2175
01:41:53,818 --> 01:41:55,284
Do you think your
life is different now?
2176
01:41:55,411 --> 01:41:58,325
Yep, gonna start
all over new again.
2177
01:41:58,518 --> 01:42:00,871
[tractor engine starts]
2178
01:42:01,143 --> 01:42:02,876
You boys will, too, now.
2179
01:42:02,877 --> 01:42:04,076
♪♪
160138
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