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thinning, and a second coming.

Hold on. I can't.

Wait.

Wait.

Ha ha!

right. Didn't you see me?

Yeah, I'm all right.

Are you all right?

Yeah, I'm all right. I'm fine.

I'm having too much fun, I guess.

You, I'm sorry. I didn't see you. Oh, you didn't see me. You didn't see that

yield sign, September.

I was running late. I'm sorry. You're late? Fine, fine. Go, go.

Listen, there's a garage out on Orange Avenue.

The sign outside says Country Boys.

Go in there and tell Nathan I sent you, okay? He'll take care of you and make it

good as new.

Really? Thanks.

Yeah.

Well, it was nice running into you.

Yeah, let's do it again sometime.

It's a great dive.

No, I... I broke too far, didn't I?

Hey, it was good. It wasn't bad. It really wasn't.

Hey, September, wait up.

September, listen.

How about I pick you up tonight?

Around seven, huh?

Not tonight, Jay.

I've got a book I want to finish.

Oh, you've got a book you want to finish, huh? Well, that's just

Well, listen, I'll call you.

September.

Hey, does this look great or what?

Hmm?

September.

Oh.

You're giving up a party for a book.

Sometimes I worry about you, September.

I mean, just because Jay's a jerk doesn't mean you have to give up on men

completely.

Well, I guess I'll just go by myself.

I'm sorry.

Have fun.

Thanks.

For our new students, I'm Fr.

Michael McCarran.

This semester we will continue to examine the problems of religion.

Let's start by examining these three questions.

Who believes in biblical creation?

Who believes that God created man?

Through evolution.

Who believes man just evolved and he created God in his own mind?

Let's begin with the last question first.

Why would anyone create such a complex concept?

September?

To answer the unanswerable.

Explain that.

Well, primitive man needed to find answers.

forward all his questions so he created god in his own imagination that would

take a lot of imagination i've got a pretty good imagination i'm sure that

do

Three couples, all of whom were members of a sect, a group, an organization

called the Lord's Sword and Guard Society.

I'm sure you've read about this. These are people who gave up their houses. In

some cases, they gave up their jobs, their savings, and gave the money to the

controversial Reverend Clark Smith.

How's it going?

These talk shows are stirring up some controversial religious issues.

Familiar with this?

Oh, yes, I heard about it. I haven't read it.

Cabot has invited the author of this book, an ex -priest, to appear on his

He has also invited the church to discuss this book, probably debate the

We have been instructed by the Vatican to supply the church's representative.

Why us?

I'm being considered for an appointment.

I feel it's their way of testing me.

You've got to pick the right person, Frank.

What about that young debate coach up at Boston College?

Too glib. Jack Keynes has done this kind of thing before.

Too old.

Michael McCarron.

A younger fellow that teaches at St. Joe's in Florida.

He wrote that excellent article on church hierarchy. The Times picked it

Didn't we offer him a position here and he turned us down? He turned us down

because he felt that his calling was to teach.

calling this younger generation.

One thing, though.

Mr. Cabot has his own investigative unit.

Any problems about this, Michael O 'Karon?

Not that I know of.

He rides a motorcycle.

Good. That'll get us the under -30 audience.

Fine. You handle it. Good. I can use a trip to Florida.

Okay.

Wahoo!

Wahoo!

Wahoo! Wahoo!

Wahoo!

Wahoo! Wahoo!

Wahoo!

Wahoo!

and tune in.

What motivated the water creature to come to land, and why did the reptile

to fly?

Species evolved in response to environmental stimuli.

Nice theory.

Let's apply it. What environmental stimuli convinced the reptile he should

to fly?

What gave him the idea to fly because there were no birds around for him to

copy? Maybe he was just a bold and adventurous lizard, and he wasn't afraid

try something different.

I bet he was really surprised the first time he jumped out of a tree and

discovered gravity.

That's another problem with environmental stimuli.

Wait, now I have a question for you.

All right.

If God created both sexes of all other species at the same time, was it an

oversight that he didn't create a woman when he created a man?

And why did he need to take a rib?

Saved by the bell.

Okay, that was a good class.

I'll see you all next Thursday, all right? We'll talk about it.

Young lady, I'm delighted to see someone giving him the hard time

that he used to give me.

Father McCarran? Father McCarran.

Good to see you. Michael, good to see you. What a surprise.

Monsignor Barrett, my mentor, September.

One of my better students, although a little too skeptical.

It was nice meeting you, Father. Bye -bye.

So what brings you to St. Joe's? I have an interesting offer for you. Let's go

talk somewhere.

I know just the place.

The church needs someone more experienced.

I think not.

You're young, articulate, got the kind of brains we need. Besides, if you

be a total flop, God forbid, you're expendable.

That makes me feel better.

Michael.

This is very important to the church. You should be very proud.

We can get you whatever you want.

No, Nathan.

The church wants me to go on TV and discuss a book with its author.

TV? Yeah, naturally. Michael. Wow.

Michael.

The press has picked up on the author's implication that man created God in his

own imagination.

That's nothing new.

Yes, but when it comes from the next priest.

It guarantees controversy.

I don't know if I'm the right man for this job.

That's what I'm here for, to help you in any way I can.

Besides, it's a pleasure to be working with you again.

Good. Here.

Figured you wouldn't run away from me here.

I haven't been running away from you, Jay.

Yeah, well, you haven't exactly been going out of your way to see me now,

you?

I've been busy.

Busy with who?

Why does it have to be anybody?

Why are you doing this to us?

Hmm?

I asked you a question.

There is no us, Jay.

Not anymore.

You wouldn't have said that before.

People change.

I haven't.

Maybe that was part of it.

Oh. Oh, I see.

So now you want me to be somebody different.

Is that it? I didn't say that, Jay.

I don't understand you.

Look at me.

Look at me.

a lot of really good times together.

Let's just leave it like that, okay?

I love you, September.

Not really.

You're not ready to love anybody.

And you are.

It's just no good anymore, Jay.

Can't we at least try, huh?

Talk about what's wrong?

I can change.

There's nothing to talk about, Jay.

Please go.

Please, Jay, go.

There's nothing wrong with the argument about early man's awareness.

You mean like the tribal leader's search for an authority higher than himself?

Right. The book argues that man created God. We would maintain that man simply

became aware of God. Yes, but God, through his strength, made his presence

even to the earliest of men.

Which could include their imaginations.

There's still the author Thomas. He's not arguing against the existence of

It's just the definition.

He denies a real God.

Does he? Or is he just trying to get us to open up our conception of God?

That's possible.

I've always been curious why the church is so afraid of accepting new ideas.

Uh, Father Mac?

Nathan?

Take it slow with this thing. If you blow it one more time, you better trade

in for a horse. Yeah, right.

You off to do priestly things?

Yeah.

Listen.

You decide you need a practice audience before the big TV debate.

I'd be interested in hearing whatever you have to say.

Well, it might not be a bad idea.

Name the time.

How about 10 o 'clock in the morning?

My office.

Tomorrow.

I'll be there.

Gotta run.

Mr. Thomas said that early man, unable to find answers to his questions,

resorted to his own imagination to provide himself with answers.

This is no new argument. The earliest church response to this was by St.

in the 13th century.

Hi.

Am I late? No, no, sit down.

Is

something

the matter?

No, I just... Why are you starting with Aquinas?

Well, it's a classical argument.

Which even you said was largely based on the presupposition that God exists.

Really? Can I say that?

Last semester.

Don't you remember?

Well, I was going to use it as a starting point. It's a traditional line

reasoning with the church beliefs.

Isn't the church's position that God exists, period?

Well...

Yes.

Really, the whole church concept is such a simplistic one.

Simplistic?

Yeah.

It answers all questions by saying, Oh, God did it. It's not really an answer.

Do you know the answers?

I know they're not to be found in ceremonies and dogma.

Okay, then how are we to know God's purposes?

I don't know that God's purpose exists at all.

September.

I hate to see you so narrow -minded in your beliefs.

I don't work for an institution that refuses to believe.

It's nearly the 21st century.

Well, just because we don't endorse everything around us doesn't mean that

not aware of everything.

Part of having a religion is...

Having the discipline to maintain valuable beliefs.

Like celibacy for priests?

Well, that's a personal decision.

Which you endorse.

I've never had a problem with it.

It's a matter of commitment.

How can you work in such a cramped space? It's like a... A monk's cell.

Where do you like to work?

Outdoors, the park, the zoo.

The zoo.

Oh, it's a great place to think.

You should try it sometime.

you

I'm on a diet.

think I'll evolve into a man.

I don't know.

What would make a man get up one morning and decide he wants to become a priest?

That's a completely different question.

And infinitely more interesting.

Well, he might look good as a priest.

You have to use both hands.

I hope the afternoon helped.

I had a wonderful time.

Me too.

Thank you.

Good night.

My pleasure.

Good night.

Do you gift wrap?

Depends.

Oh, sure.

That will be $20 .95.

the result is sometimes benign and sometimes cruel and often an arbitrary

result. I just want to thank you for the book.

September? Oh, you're welcome.

I just have one question.

What's that?

Is gift -giving to young women allowed by the Church?

One day you'll be Pope.

Let's hope not.

I'll be happy enough to get through these debates.

How's it going?

Good news today.

They're having a show in town.

Really? That's great.

At least I'll have a friendly audience.

I'll be there.

Are you okay?

I just dropped my apple.

Yeah, but it sounded like water splashing.

I'm taking a bath.

You're eating an apple in the bathtub?

Mm -hmm.

Do you remember the problems that apples caused?

You better be careful.

I'm always careful.

What do you think?

Uh, carburetor mixture's too lean.

Idle's too low.

What about the clutch?

Yeah, give me five, uh, eights open -end wrench, okay?

Father Mac, uh, we got a question for you to settle.

Go ahead. Shoot, I'll try my best. We've been having a, uh, a disagreement.

Now, which should I love more, my girl or my bike?

That's a pretty dumb question, Nathan.

Your love for an inanimate object can never equal the love you share for

person. Now, wait a second.

Now, wait. Now, my bike is not just an... Inanimate.

Whatever. My bike is not just an object.

Okay? It's me. It's my freedom. My... The orientation towards life.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

There's nothing wrong with that. Everybody needs an orientation.

As long as the symbols don't become too important.

What, you mean my bike, yeah?

The bike or that cigarette. You know, the symbols become too important and you

forget what they stand for.

That's not right.

So what's the answer?

What's more important?

Nathan's girl or his bike?

I think Nathan knows the answer to that.

Yeah, my bike.

Not quite amongst us, is it?

No.

But we drink wine. Would you like some?

Oh, yeah. Thanks, Father. That would be great.

Michael.

Cheers. It's

getting

late. You're a silly girl sometimes.

You can't leave until we've finished our conversation.

What were we talking about?

I lost my train of thought.

What were we talking about?

Pretty slow.

I'm not sure I really got any of that, Tom.

No, I don't think tonight would be good.

I appreciate it, Frank. We'll talk tomorrow.

Good night.

Open it.

Why didn't you knock?

Where did you get these?

God, you're amazing.

Sit here like you're totally innocent with the evidence staring you in the

These pictures are misleading. What are you trying to imply?

That you're screwing one of your students.

You know, it's bad enough you're her teacher.

Priest, you ought to be ashamed of yourself.

Get out of my office.

Now, I'm going to let you keep this bunch.

But next time, everybody gets to see him.

Got it, Potter.

my heart

You've become very close friends, September. Perhaps too close.

Uh -oh.

There's been an election on the 407. Don't be unfair.

Unfair?

I like being with you. I enjoy sharing ideas with you. I'm being to all I can

because you're a priest and that's fair.

Appearances matter.

You make it sound like we're sneaking around sleeping together.

I just don't understand how you can give up so much to be afraid.

Sacrifices have their rewards.

And you'd rather wait and get yours in heaven?

I get a great deal out of what I do. That includes our friendship. I'm not

saying that we have to end it.

It's just that we've got to be aware.

I think you're right.

Are you sure it's safe for you to be seen talking to me like this?

Well, I guess I had that coming, huh?

September.

The last thing I need right now is a scandal.

Understand?

I understand.

I just hate the church to keep us from being friends.

drawings at the art show.

I saw Jay today.

And?

What do you think of this dress?

It's great.

September.

Jay's been telling everyone on campus that you're fooling around with Father

Mac.

Doesn't surprise me.

This whole thing's getting out of control.

Oh, Annie, I'm so confused.

You know, you're asking for a lot of pain.

I just hope he's worth it.

So natural.

So comfortable.

Like it was meant to be.

Well, I don't blame you for going after him.

I just don't want to see you get hurt.

I can't help it.

I just can't.

I didn't want to disturb your work.

Hello.

I wanted to see you. I guess that sounds silly, huh?

No, not at all.

You want to go for a walk?

Sure, I'd love to.

Where are you taking me?

The Garden of Eden.

So now you believe in the garden?

Cove?

Thank you.

You're very special.

You make me feel special.

Would you like an ice cream?

Wait a minute.

Wait a minute!

Why are you so afraid of me?

I have these feelings.

They're good feelings, but they're just not right.

What's not right?

I'm a priest.

I made a pledge to the church and to God.

Does that mean you can't be human?

No.

No, I'm quite human.

And you do like me, don't you? September, I like you very much, but...

I made my vows.

Vals, a bunch of words you mumbled when you were too young to even understand

what they meant.

What for you?

Two vanilla cones. Chocolate.

I don't like chocolate.

I didn't say they both had to be chocolate. Come on, I'm trying to close

here. Okay, one chocolate for her and I'll have vanilla.

Okay.

Delicious.

Here you go. Thank you. Good night.

Will we still be friends?

We gotta be.

You two go ahead.

Don't let me stop you.

I just wanted to talk to September.

I just wanted to see the two of you up close.

So tell me, do you like Spooner Priest?

Hello.

Hello, Michael.

September.

I just wanted to call and apologize for running off the other night.

If anyone should apologize, it's me.

Why?

I should have never let it turn into what it did.

What are you talking about?

September.

Not now, okay?

I have to concentrate on this show. I have a lot on my mind.

Yeah, sure.

I'm sorry.

I have never in my entire life met anyone so arrogant,

so insensitive, and so self -centered as you.

You let me finish.

What you did was unfair.

You wanted me to fall in love with you.

And when I did,

You hid behind God to avoid me.

Michael.

Michael, what happened?

What? I don't know.

Frank.

What is love?

Love?

Love is devotion, trust, caring.

It's also passion.

I'm only human.

Of course you're human.

They expect us to act as though we weren't.

Michael.

I have feelings.

I learned to control those feelings and channel that passion into God's love.

I know I used to be a priest.

You chose a higher path, Michael.

Nobody ever said it would be easy.

Father McCarran, you made certain pledges to God and his church.

Right now, you don't know whether you've sinned or whether you've just been

liberated. But your primary duty is to that church. And by fulfilling that

you will find the answers you seek.

Through the grace of God.

You haven't lost your belief in God, have you? No.

No, I haven't lost it.

I'm just not sure.

Our doubts lead us to a deeper faith.

Ask his help.

Now, go on home, get some sleep, get cleaned up.

I know you'll make us proud of you, Michael.

Without you Seems like eternity

Will you ever forgive me?

Nothing to forgive.

Why haven't you been in class?

I was too embarrassed to face you.

Embarrassed?

You shouldn't be embarrassed of anyone.

Not even of taking my clothes off in front of a priest?

I've been asking myself that same question.

The answer needs to be so simple.

But they aren't anymore.

What can be wrong with the way we feel for each other?

Not the people.

Oh, I still can't.

I made a vow to live a certain life.

Although I'm already married, I can't forsake that commitment.

Our lives are too far apart.

Still, I want to thank you for sharing your world with me.

Not many girls can say they lost out to God.

So tomorrow's your big day, huh?

Are you ready?

I'm not sure.

I sure hope God appreciates what a great champion he's got in you.

Are you going to be there?

It's better that I don't.

You'll do great.

I know you will.

Michael, you ready?

Yes. As ready as I'll ever be.

Good.

University of Georgia.

We'll do a forward two and a half pike.

Degree of difficulty, 2 .3.

What we're going to do for the next hour is talk about

this book. It's called Before God. It's a novel by C .A. Thomas.

And it's a book that's caused quite a lot of controversy, especially in

religious circles.

It's a book that has upset a number of people and we have the author here with

us. Mr Thomas who's going to help us talk about it and also with us

what you might call the other side is Father Michael McCarran the Catholic

Church gentlemen welcome Now mr. Thomas, I guess we should begin with you

because well lately you've been called a lot of things you've been attacked by

your critics as a heretic as an atheist and as a man who has staged a one -man

assault and attack on the church.

And these are important charges, of course, because in your case you were a

priest and have left the church. So let's begin with you. Why?

Mr. Cabot, I'm afraid that the media has totally overblown my

importance of my work. This book was not intended to attack anyone.

But you do renounce the church.

in leaving the priesthood.

I... I left the church. I did not leave God.

And why did you leave the church?

I left the church because it became apparent to me that the church was more

involved in the church than in God.

Father McCarran, it seems to be your cue.

We obviously take strong exception with Mr. Thomas' opinion that God is a

creation of man.

Our conception of God may be limited by our own comprehension, but that hardly

explains away the actual existence of Lord God.

He is the creative force.

Father, is that statement intended to be a definition of God?

At least a definition.

And I believe a reality.

I accept that view.

Now, by that you mean that you don't think it's important that God be defined

either simply a definition or a reality?

Well, no, actually it isn't. Whether God exists or is a creation of man isn't

important. We need him. We use him the same either way. What's important is

we do this day, this day, and tomorrow, and the next.

I wish you'd hear a moment of that.

Our seeking of God every day will bring us to him, whatever God may or may not

be. But why do you choose to give so little importance to God?

No, excuse me, Father. I'm afraid you've totally missed the point.

You've reduced God to a figment of early man's imagination.

No, I don't I can't I can't reduce God I Simply

allow God to be what he is and for every individual to seek to seek God at their

own level We all have that capacity man doesn't need a burning bush.

We have minds

The duty of the Catholic Church is to help man have a better understanding of

God and the mysteries. Yes, but the Church sometimes stifles man's

with its dogma, with its rituals.

It's the rituals that help create order in our lives. You know that. You were

taught by the Church.

Father, I wasn't only taught by the Church. I said Mass. I was a priest.

But I had to leave the Church to have my own freedom of thought.

The Church doesn't allow any experimentation when it comes to

and doctrine.

Look, no man needs to be force -fed someone else's theory of God. If we just

learn to listen, just really listen to our inner voice, we

would know what path to follow.

Well, God's rules are specific.

Son, you don't believe that. I don't think you even believe that.

It's the church's rules that are very specific.

Yes, but we've been following the church's rules for generations and

The church needs to help man understand God, not to dictate some

definition of God. God will be what man needs God to be. He will care for us. He

will comfort us when we need it.

And Father McCarran, God will allow you to go your path alone.

When you feel you know your own way.

Well, Father McCarran, I'm sure you... Father McCarran,

you seem to have lost my priest.

Yes, sir, I think you have.

Excuse me, gentlemen.

Father.

We're going to have to get seatbelts.

Did I meet over?

Guess I'm going to be a champion diver.