All language subtitles for T.A.M.A.S01E03.Dirty.Secrets.1080p.DSNP.WEB-DL.DDP5.1.H.264-CMRG_track4_[eng]

[insects chirping]

[tense music]

BROOKE:
It was really late at night.

I had the urge
to check his phone.

And then it was all
just right there.

I barely had to do
any digging at all.

It was an inbox...

On Ashley Madison,
and there was,

like, a dozen
female names there.

My husband was saying
that, essentially,

he was in a tough spot
with his marriage,

and he wasn't looking for
anything serious or emotional.

He just wanted
a sexual connection.

And then he would immediately

go into sexual language
with them.

I could not believe
what I was seeing.

It took me, like, looking
at things, the messages,

over and over and over again,
and rereading them

over and over and over again
to convince myself

that this was happening.

[dramatic music]

MAN 1: When the story
initially broke

it looked really bad.

And then it only got worse.

NEWS ANCHOR: We're gonna turn
next tonight to new fallout

over the
Ashley Madison hacking scandal.

MAN 2: I think this was
Ashley Madison's

worst nightmare, absolutely.

MAN 3:
The CEO of this company,

he's having a rough week,
we'll say that.

MAN 4: Members, of course,
have secrets

but the company
has secrets as well.

REPORTER: Ashley Madison
is still operational.

Experts wonder for how long.

[inquisitive music]

JEREMY: In August 2015,
I was at my desk at work,

and I heard Ashley Madison had
had their database hacked,

and I was fascinated.

This is enormous.

The thing about being
a data scientist

is that I'm a truth seeker.

And I wanted to understand

exactly what was going on
in Ashley Madison.

One of the things
the Impact Team wrote was,

"Keep in mind
the site is a scam.

"With thousands
of fake female profiles,

see the Ashley Madison
fake profile lawsuit."

And that turns
everyone's attention

to a lawsuit that was filed
two years earlier in 2013

about exactly that issue.

When Miss Silva came to me
and the kind of claim

that she wanted to bring
was extraordinary.

Nothing like
I'd ever encountered

in my practice before.

An employee of Ashley Madison
was suing the company.

Alleging that she had gotten
repetitive stress injuries,

and quite significant ones

because she had been made
to type out

a lot of fake profiles.

PAUL: She had to use
her imagination

to come up with these
allegedly fake identities

of various women,
1,000 of them.

People were paying money
joining this website.

And if Miss Silva was right

they were being misled
to believe that

there were a lot more women
there than there really were.

Doriana was seeking
$20 million approximately.

She felt that the company had
unfairly made a lot of money

at her expense, and that she
just couldn't work anymore.

PAUL: And that was filed
with the courts,

and it was provided
to Ashley Madison.

And one of the first things
that they did is,

they hired their own lawyers,

who then,
on behalf of Ashley Madison,

sought to strike out
the very use of the word fake.

PAOLA: To me,
the fact that they wanted

those words removed is actually

what drew more attention
to the case.

As part of their response
to Doriana's lawsuit,

Ashley Madison wanted to
counter a lot of her claims.

They basically said
throughout this time

that she's been off work,

she has done things
such as jet skiing.

And despite saying that
she is no longer able to type,

she has had a very active
presence on social media.

The Doriana lawsuit
was dismissed.

And I really regret
that I didn't get to see

all of these people
called to the stand

and made to say things
under oath

because that would have been
really good.

But we learn later
after the hack

that Doriana was probably
telling the truth

about the fake profiles.

JEREMY:
The thing with a hack is,

you never quite know
what you're gonna get.

When I downloaded and unpacked
all of the information,

I just was astonished
at what I'd got.

I'm sitting at my desk,
looking at an inbox.

But it's not my inbox.

It's the email of the CEO

of Ashley Madison,
Noel Biderman.

3 and 1/2 years' worth,
and nearly 200,000 of them.

And there's all sorts in there.

"After a long week of work,
cold beer is now here."

Very nice.

An email headed up,

"Re: Stripper
looking for work."

Then he's responded,

"At least Friday beer time

would be more lively,
smiley face."

I'm looking at an
email telling him

that his Maserati has arrived.

Must have been doing well.

So Noel writes
to three employees

asking for an update
on a subject

which he calls photo exchange.

And he gets a response from one
of his very senior executives.

"Hey, Noel, we took
the script and process

"that was successful
in the creation

"of over 10,000 profiles
in under 2 weeks--"

a major success story.

"We are moving
as fast as we can.

"This is a huge
and delicate undertaking

that is the foundation
of what our site runs on."

An admission.

An admission, both that they
were creating fake profiles,

and that they could do it
at an industrial scale.

I went through the whole
of Noel's email cache,

and I came across
an Ashley Madison video

on how to make fake profiles.

What I'm looking at is
an Ashley Madison employee

repurposing someone else's
profile into a Japanese woman

and engage her,
a fake human being.

I mean,
it's all different women

of different races and ages.

JEREMY: Sexual preferences,
personality,

the whole thing
in just a few moments.

And some of the
descriptions--

"My limits are anything goes.

"I seek something discreet,
short term,

"with someone who is educated.

I have a PhD."

[laughing]

Sure.

And is 5'8", by the way.
[laughs]

It's a supermodel.

Oh, my goodness!

"I am a pretty woman and enjoy
pleasing a man in many ways.

I love to laugh and have fun."

It tells you something
about, I guess,

human nature and loneliness
and what people are looking for

that they're not finding
in their own home.

JEREMY: They got people
all over the world

to make these things.

A couple of minutes
is all it's taking

to create a profile that's
going to con some poor man

into parting with his money.

MARVIN: I had a photo,
and my nickname was Marvelous.

Ashley Madison,
although it was primarily

for people looking
to have affairs,

I heard that there
are other people

in the swingers lifestyle that
were using the site as well.

I was going through hundreds
of profiles from women

all over the East Coast.

I would put together
an introductory note

to tell them I'm a fun person

to consider
for their adventures.

Initially, it was dry.

I was questioning whether
I should waste any more money.

SUNNY: The one problem
with a fake profile is that

while you can
message that person,

they cannot message you
in return.

It says in those emails
that the fake profile

doesn't speak back.

Only a real female can reply

to a male's custom message.

SUNNY:
And so how does Ashley Madison

make more money?

Because the business model

is in the constant messaging.

This question led
to a whole new initiative

that took Ashley Madison
deeper into the mire.

One day, all of a sudden,
I had five or six messages.

I was excited.

It definitely made me feel good
because I thought,

"There is someone out there

"that thinks I'm attractive
or has an interest.

Maybe this will work."

The messages were very short.

They did not mention me
by my nickname.

They just said,
hello, you know,

I caught your profile,

and I think I might be
interested in meeting you.

I was taken aback
because I thought,

you know, it'd be impossible
for five different people

to write the same message.

It just felt like
they weren't real people.

[dramatic music]

Ashley and Madison
weren't even real.

WOMAN 1: Many of the women
on the site

were actually bots,
computerized programs.

That means many customers
were paying to chat

with robots, not real women.

CLAIRE:
This bombshell comes out

that some of the female users

had signs of being
some form of chat bot.

This proves the guys
were doing nothing wrong.

There was no
cheating happening.

[laughter]

Out of the millions
of people who joined

there may have only
been eight actual women,

but those chicks
were ready to go.

[laughter]

A fem bot is
a fake female profile

that has a chat capability.

It's built to entice men
to keep responding.

And while they're doing that,
they're spending money.

KRISTEN: And I think
that made the hack seem

so much sadder
in some instances,

because, you know, these people
had been paying money.

They had risked their home
lives, their family lives,

and they weren't even
engaging with real women.

[inquisitive music]

Encountering bots
pre-hack on Ashley Madison,

yeah, I'm sure I did.

It's harder for men.

And men are desperate,
so they're vulnerable,

and you never quite know

what you're gonna
get yourself into.

The feedback I kept getting
is, "You're so real."

It was because
I wasn't like a robot.

Even if there was
someone real messaging you,

you'd never know,
because it's hidden.

It's like she'd be hidden
in the bots.

JEREMY: They launched
22,000 fem bots during 2013.

If you look at the revenue,
it took an immediate uptick.

In 2012, world revenue
was $71 million.

Two years later,
it was over 180 million,

more than double.

Now, we can't say conclusively
that that was a result

of the fem bots,
but as they say in America,

go figure.

Now we're a real business,
a global business, right,

in 46 countries, generating
over $100 million a year.

Are we the next
billion-dollar company?

I would argue so.

It really shows that
the guy who's the CEO

is a real, like--
I don't know--

[bleep] of a wingman,
really, you know?

I mean, this guy--
you know, guys are supposed

to be looking out
for each other

when it comes
to the dating scene,

and this guy basically
raked in a lot of money

off of these guys who were
just looking to score.

I mean, this guy should just
be tarred and feathered,

I think, by every guy
on that site.

Well, he's having
a rough week,

we'll say that, right,
the CEO of this company.

I think with Noel,
all these various practices

that are being pushed fall
squarely on his shoulders.

He certainly was making
less public appearances.

And I don't think that
there was any incentivization

within the company
to speak publicly

about this particular issue
on camera.

He was certainly more somber
and quiet around the office.

Sort of at that point,
the house of cards

starts to come down.

[inquisitive music]

CHRIS: It was intriguing
as lower-rung staff

watched this flaming train
speeding by on the track

and no one there
to put the fire out.

CLAIRE: Once Noel's
hacked emails became public,

there was also
devastating information

about Noel personally.

[upbeat music]

Noel regularly went on
talk shows with his wife

and claimed to be
in a monogamous marriage.

You two have been married
for ten years.

- Ten years.
- Is that true?

You have
a monogamous relationship.

Yes, absolutely. And I would be
devastated if he did it to me.

INTERVIEWER:
You don't cheat on each other?

No, and ironically, one
of the major benefits of me

running this business
is that if anyone on the planet

should know what it takes to be

in a successful relationship,
it's me.

My wife and I are very honest
with one another

about what we need and how
our relationship will work.

SUNNY:
Whoever this Impact Team was,

they certainly uncovered
some interesting information.

There was a second data dump
by these hackers

that had the CEO's emails
in it.

And in those emails, there
were close to 300 messages

between the founder,
Noel Biderman, and a woman

who suggested the two
were meeting up at hotels

regularly for dates.

In fact,
there are these email chains

where he says
he's interested in escorts.

And in one in particular,
he says he's interested

in 18-to 19-year-olds.

"Do you have some
available right now?"

And then goes on to say that
he's at this particular hotel.

"Who can come?

"And I would prefer two.

Call me."

CHARLES:
I laughed.

I was like,
there's all these things.

And then on top of it,
you have this too.

So much hypocrisy just
exuding out of his pores.

I don't understand.

Under pressure, it looks
like Noel Biderman,

effective immediately,
will be stepping down

as the CEO of Ashley Madison.

Sara, back to you.

Not such a surprise, I guess.

- No.
- What a nightmare.

I think we could have
seen this coming.

I certainly wasn't
surprised when he quit.

Like, there was no way.

How do you--
you can't survive that.

There's way too much.

There's just so much.

REPORTER:
The site's parent company,

Avid Life Media,
saying in a statement

"This change is in the best
interest of the company

"and allows us to continue
to provide support

to our members
and dedicated employees."

Avid Life Media said
Noel Biderman's departure

was a mutual decision
and is in

the best interest
of the company.

CHRIS: I don't know what
happened to him after he left.

He vanished
off the face of the Earth.

I do know that he still works.

I've seen him on LinkedIn.

Um, but beyond that,
no idea what he's up to.

SUNNY:
Noel still resides in Canada.

He lists his occupation
as an entrepreneur.

CHRIS: He certainly hasn't
been in the public eye since.

SUNNY:
So who did this?

Who planned it?

Who executed it so flawlessly?

BRIAN: Ashley Madison
offered a $500,000 bounty

several days after they had
acknowledged the breach.

And you know, they probably got
a few armchair investigators

off their butts
for a little bit.

JEREMY:
The biggest question for me

around the hack is, why?

SUNNY: My gut would tell me
money but for the fact that

they didn't ask
for money in the beginning.

So I would have
to go to revenge.

TROY:
Could it be a scorned lover?

Well, it'd have to be a very

technically capable
scorned lover.

I think you're
looking at a very,

very small piece of society.

Was it someone
who'd spent more money

than they can afford
on the site?

PER:
They've signed up.

They haven't been able
to meet any women.

You've been ripping me off

and this is my way
to punish you.

Now, it did
seem like somebody

really had it in for the
CEO of Ashley Madison.

CLAIRE:
Because the hack included

all of Noel Biderman's emails,

that suggests that there was
something personal about it

that the hacker really wanted
to reveal these sort

of embarrassing details.

And when you consider
one of the statements

from the Impact Team,
that "ALM management

"is bullshit and has
made millions of dollars

from complete 100% fraud."

These are people who
are going after Noel

and the company and their
business practices.

There was speculation in the
office about who it could be.

We theorized that it was
someone who had worked there,

maybe a disgruntled ex-IT
who knew that those

glaring security flaws
were there.

BRIAN: When I interviewed the
Ashley Madison CEO in 2015

breaking the story
about the breach

he told me straight up
they knew who was responsible,

that they were somebody
who had access

to their systems previously,
but not an employee.

Now, that is pretty specific.

That alone to me suggested that
they must have had some kind

of feeling about this
going into it

before they even knew
they were hacked.

And we see that in the leaked
Ashley Madison emails.

JEREMY: There was some concern
about a past employee

who was somewhat troubled.

He'd already left the company
and was in dispute with them

over certain bonus payments.

So this is 2012.

This person, Will Harrison,

sent a lot of emails
to Ashley Madison,

and to Noel in particular.

And it got to the stage
where Ashley Madison

were referring it
to the police.

This email starts off,
"You called the police on me

"saying I'm threatening
you all?

"Yeah, good luck
with that bullshit lies,

"kind of like
the other bullshit lies

you pulled
wrongfully terminating me."

Now, all of this
is in capitals.

I'm not gonna read
any of the rest of it

because it's just too abusive
and too profane.

BRIAN: And certainly, you come
away with the conclusion

that whoever wrote them
had a lot of, uh, anger

and hate in their heart
for the CEO.

JEREMY: Also,
Ashley Madison executives

suspected that after
he'd been terminated,

Will Harrison was leaking
company information.

It was clear that there were
only a few authorized accounts

within Ashley Madison
that would have

had access to that data.

In 2012, they start
looking around and they go,

wait a minute here.

Will no longer works for us.

Why does Will still have
uber-god admin privileges here?

So I think that was kind of
a shock to the system for them.

And I'm quite sure that
they took steps to try

to get rid of that account.

But my guess is, they did not
get him out of the system

and that he retained access.

JEREMY: So could he have been
the hacker in 2015?

Rarely do I get that sense
where all of the signs

point definitively to,
yes, this is the guy,

like there's a giant neon sign
hanging over

the guy's head saying,
"I did it," right?

And you don't normally get
that kind of conclusion

in the research that I do.

I mean, he fits the profile.

He obviously had

a major axe
to grind against the company.

So he had motive to do that.

The criminal history check
into Will Harrison

showed that he had
a substantial rap sheet.

And in some of the research
was a Facebook page

where he's posing
with a bulletproof vest on

and a handgun.

There's no doubt in my mind
that when they became aware

they were hacked in July 2015,

the CEO and probably others
in the company

did really believe it was Will.

I was able to determine
that, uh, Will's stepmom

lived in Northern Virginia,

so I decided
to give her a call.

[line trilling]

I got out of her fairly quickly

that Will was no longer
with us,

and that, uh,
he had shot himself,

uh, fatally,

uh, and that
this happened sometime

in the summer of 2014, uh,

so more than a full year
before we learned

about the Ashley Madison hack.

My guess is, they did not
get him out of the system.

And it's quite possible he
was working with other people

and gave them
the access that he had.

Somebody retained access

up until we learned
about the breach.

But we don't know.

Our issues in relation
to the events of 2015

are still an ongoing
and open case.

We have no information.

There is no--
there are no suspects,

or no known suspects.

[inquisitive music]

The U.S.
Federal Trade Commission

opens an investigation
into the company's practices.

SUNNY: So the
Federal Trade Commission

takes Ashley Madison on,
as they should.

That's their job.

You don't want
the FTC coming after you

for deceptive
business practices.

It's probably one
of the worst things.

My opinion was that

this was the death knell
for Ashley Madison.

That was the end.

It was clear the company
was falling down on its job

in cybersecurity.

And I think what was
such a profound betrayal

was the dating profiles
being women that were bots.

That's deception.

MAN 5: The adultery
dating website

Ashley Madison will pay

more than
$1.6 million in settlements.

The investigation found that
the company used lax

online security
and misled users.

SUNNY: Being investigated
by the FTC

should be the death knell

for your entrepreneurial
future endeavors.

But $1.66 million,
that's just a mere pittance.

Judge, what are the chances
that there are some lawyers

calling around some of
the victims and saying,

"Let's band together.
"I'm gonna help you out.

"We'll get you a class action
lawsuit against Ashley Madison."

I think there's probably
an excellent chance.

After we learned what
happened at this company,

people are angry.

They feel duped.

And they decided
to get together

and file
a class action lawsuit.

MARVIN: I wanted to get back
at Ashley Madison

because I felt it was
their responsibility

to protect my data.

And I was upset
about the messages

that I got
from the profiles that

I believe weren't real people.

For them to do that to people,

that was nothing more
than an attempt

to shake them down for money.

It's awful. It's awful.

You know, people spending
their hard-earned money

for whatever fantasy.

They didn't deserve to be
robbed for all intents.

[phone rings]

REPORTER:
Caller after caller wanting in

on this class action lawsuit

against infidelity website
Ashley Madison.

SUNNY: They alleged
deceptive business practices.

What's also important to note
is that the victims

would like to proceed
anonymously.

One of the ways
that the class action suit

could have destroyed
Ashley Madison is because

the more victims you have,

the larger the settlement
should be.

And so this certainly
could have just

decimated the company,

millions and millions
and millions of dollars.

A judge just ruled that if
these victims wanna sue,

they have to reveal
who they are.

Okay?

It was a genius move

that Ashley Madison's
lawyer said,

"Well, if you wanna sue,
then you can't be anonymous."

You have to be a named
plaintiff of the class.

- But these are--
- Are they victims, though?

- They're cheaters.
- Are they victims?

- They're cheaters.
- Cheaters aren't victims.

They have a right to sue, but
not as an anonymous cheater.

Kelly on Twitter says,
"Nope. You play, you pay.

"If you're big enough
to cheat on that website,

then you should be big enough
to state your real name."

We talked about this
on "The View,"

and I maintain what
I maintained then,

they didn't deserve anonymity.

I will say I think that's fair.

DANIELLE:
The Ashley Madison hack

made imminently clear to me
that cheaters deserve privacy.

We all deserve privacy.

I don't care what you're
doing with your life.

Each and every one of us,
you know,

we all deserve
intimate privacy.

If you wanted to sue,
you had to out yourself

to your family, to the world,
to your employer.

DANIELLE: You're making
yourself vulnerable, right?

And so, you know,
there is that conversation

a lawyer has with a client
and says, are you sure?

Are you okay with putting
your name on this lawsuit?

Because online abuse
and harassment

might very well follow.

And so
the lawsuit class drops

from 42 to 18.

That's a big win.

It could possibly
save the company.

Uh, after, uh,
speaking with the attorneys,

and potentially altering
my life in a way,

I felt that it was good
for me to take a stand.

I had to come out
front and center

and put my name out there and
let people know what happened.

When I got the message that
Ashley Madison lost,

that we had won the case,
I was thrilled,

knowing that I could take on
the company,

and we could make them pay
for their actions.

The class action settlement
was around the area

of $11.2 million.

That's not a lot of money
because it's then split

for the whole class.

SUNNY: Three years earlier,
Ashley Madison had a revenue

of over $150 million.

This is a drop
in the bucket for them.

And so it is really no longer
this situation where,

oh, my goodness,
this company is over.

Facing a class action lawsuit
is not surprising when we had

an event like we did in 2015.

But it wasn't
extinction level event,

fortunately, for us.

Contrary to maybe common
sense or common knowledge

it rose, phoenix-like,
from its ashes.

The site is doing really well.

[laughing]

Of course it is!
Yeah, there we go.

Good for them.

They did it.

KEABLE: The events of 2015
were a moment

where we truly
let our membership down.

At the core of Ashley Madison
is a promise of discretion,

a promise of privacy.

And we failed there.

And we understood if this
business could ever succeed,

we're gonna have to build back
the trust

with our existing members

and any potential
future members.

In 2017, we commissioned
a report from Ernst & Young

to verify that there were
no bots on the system

once, uh, we remediated
that issue completely.

Part of the reason we also
brought in Ernst & Young

was to validate the nature
of our membership,

'cause that was a real critical
question coming out of 2015.

Were there women on the site?

And Ernst & Young showed
that in 2017,

looking at the 5 million,
roughly, sign-ups we had,

the ratio of was 1 male
for every 1.13 female.

It was 2017
when I started cheating.

The hack didn't bother me when
I signed up because, honestly,

I figured that
they probably had

to tighten up their security.

It was a huge ego boost,
just to feel desired.

Did I think twice about using

Ashley Madison
because of the breach?

Yeah, a little, but any
website can be breached.

I took as much precaution
as I could.

If there was anything
that happened,

my name wouldn't be
published anywhere.

One day I went back
to go look,

and it just seemed
like business as usual.

And isn't that an interesting
statement on human nature?

Ultimately, it's just like,
the dust settles,

and then everybody goes back
to their life

pursuing what
they want to pursue.

One could argue that
the upside to the hack

is that not only did it not

put Ashley Madison
out of business.

Now millions more people
knew about the existence

of a platform where
you could have an affair.

KEABLE: You don't get
20,000-plus people

signing up a day just because,
you know,

you say we're a great place.

We're offering something that's
needed, wanted, and desired.

[upbeat music]

PAOLA: I don't know that
a website like that

is scandalous anymore.

But I feel like, you know,
there's all sorts of websites

where people
can do all sorts of things,

and we're mostly okay with it.

Our brand will
continue to evolve

because there are people
who are living

a non-monogamous lifestyle.

And that might be swingers
and a whole variety

of other dynamics that fall
under the polyamorous brand.

[inquisitive music]

ALISHA: Definitely attitudes
towards monogamy are changing.

I definitely think
100 years from now,

it's gonna be even more
relaxed and more acceptable.

And I think that's just
the natural progression

of society, you know?

The old-fashioned views
are dying off.

If I thought I could
have an open relationship

with my husband and that
I could see other people,

and that we'd both be happy,
I'd do it in a heartbeat.

But I know him.

He would never, never.

He'd never do it
because it would be

a huge betrayal for him,

and our marriage will be over,

basically, either way.

I think that
non-monogamy on a whole

is becoming more accepted.

But I don't think that adultery
is becoming more accepted,

because adultery involves
deception and lying,

and hurts the other person.

There's going to be
businesses that prey

or lean into every aspect
of the human experience--

some beautiful,
some a little bit gruesome.

Ashley Madison is gruesome.

Here's someone
who is addicted to love

because you want the thrill
of that feeling,

that spark, amazing.

Polyamory literally
breaks down into many loves.

That's you!

So there are so many

great sites and communities

and places in the light
that you can exist

and mingle with people
who enthusiastically claim

this is a part of their life
and their existence.

So I have less tolerance now
for people who still choose

to do the betrayal route.

I've heard other women talk
about this where they just,

like, have this innate kind of,
like, gut feeling of,

"I feel like there's something
being hidden from me."

We were still
relative newlyweds

when I opened his phone,
and I discovered the messages

in Ashley Madison.

It felt like he just outsourced
desire to somebody else,

to anyone else, really,
that was willing.

It was just,
"I need to have sex."

That was definitely the mission
from the messages I read.

"We're here to do one thing."

I felt like somebody had
punched me in the gut.

I remember, like, my knees,
like, buckling a little bit,

like, which sounds so dramatic,
but I had never experienced

that sort of, like, wind
just being knocked out of me.

When you discover something
like that, like a secret

so big that you don't know how
long it's been going on for,

how far it's gone,
you really do question

every interaction that
you've had with that person.

I stormed into our room,
and I woke him up.

I turned all the lights on.

And I was like, what is this?

Just showed him what I'd found.

And his reaction was to say,

"Oh, I'm so glad you found it,"

which really took me
by surprise.

Yeah, he was glad.
He was glad I found it.

He said that it had been
a secret weighing on him

for several months, and that
he was wanting to get caught.

That's why he said it was
so easy to find, apparently.

Yeah.

That was one of
the lowest points

of my entire, entire existence.

It's not okay
to lie to people.

It's not okay to pretend
you're someone that

you're not capable of being,

especially in the world
that we live in today,

wherein, again,
there are options and outlets

to be a better person.

Going through infidelity
and divorce

has definitely changed
a lot of how

I view what love actually is.

SHAN: We are split
on so many issues,

so many very arousing issues,

whether that be gun control
or birth control

or the death penalty.

But if you wanna know a place
where most people

have a same strong opinion,
it's cheating.

We can almost universally
across the board

agree that this is a bad thing.

I'm always in favor of
letting people live the way

that they want
in as many ways as possible

when it's all,
like, consensual,

and all of those things.
Those are wonderful things.

I think the issue
with infidelity

is always that it's,
by definition, non-consensual.

CHARLES: I think as long as
people are unhappy

in their relationships,
websites or apps like this

will continue to be successful.

If you're unhappy,
people risk much more

to feel happy than merely
putting their information

on a website.

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