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Would you like to inspect the original subtitles? These are the user uploaded subtitles that are being translated: 1 00:00:07,240 --> 00:00:08,998 LAUGHTER 2 00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:11,080 Wait. There we go. 3 00:00:12,320 --> 00:00:14,718 WOMAN LAUGHS 4 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:16,518 Nellie, careful there. 5 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:17,920 Sorry, Grandad. 6 00:00:20,960 --> 00:00:22,718 Ready? That's ready. 7 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:24,678 OK. Ready, Nellie? 8 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,358 Here I come! 9 00:00:26,360 --> 00:00:29,638 Aa-a-ah! Aa-a-ah! 10 00:00:29,640 --> 00:00:31,318 Run! 11 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:33,598 Aargh! Aargh! 12 00:00:33,600 --> 00:00:37,520 I can't believe you're still doing that. 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:50,840 Whee! 14 00:00:59,160 --> 00:01:01,358 I'd like to welcome you to this international 15 00:01:01,360 --> 00:01:04,278 conference for climate change, 2009. 16 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:07,318 It is my great pleasure to welcome our keynote speaker, 17 00:01:07,320 --> 00:01:12,518 who has been a pioneer in climate science for the last 30 years, 18 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:14,598 an expert in his field, 19 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:16,678 world-renowned, 20 00:01:16,680 --> 00:01:19,398 and who will address us on his work on the global instrumental 21 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:22,478 temperature record, often referred to as a hockey stick graph, 22 00:01:22,480 --> 00:01:24,558 which has been so important in helping us 23 00:01:24,560 --> 00:01:28,118 to understand the cause of change during the last 1,000 years. 24 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,760 We are honoured to welcome Prof Philip Jones. 25 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:35,480 Go on, then. 26 00:01:38,720 --> 00:01:41,720 APPLAUSE 27 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:55,080 Thank you. 28 00:01:57,960 --> 00:01:59,240 Thank you very much. 29 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:08,760 PLUCKED VIOLIN MUSIC 30 00:02:32,800 --> 00:02:34,878 I'll call you to let you know when I'm back. 31 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:36,280 You're a star, Dad, thanks. 32 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,158 Where the hell are you? The train leaves in two minutes. 33 00:02:43,160 --> 00:02:44,640 Shit. 34 00:02:45,680 --> 00:02:49,120 Sorry. I had to sort out the kids. Right... 35 00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:53,518 Let's see what level of a shit storm we've got here. 36 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:57,238 TV: The University of East Anglia's Climategate email controversy. 37 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:58,958 Climategate. Climategate. 38 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:00,478 The Climategate scandal. 39 00:03:00,480 --> 00:03:02,878 Scientists are using words like "trick". 40 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:04,718 Climategate they're calling it, 41 00:03:04,720 --> 00:03:08,518 a new scandal over global warming and it's burning up the Internet. 42 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:11,278 Have the books been cooked on climate change? 43 00:03:11,280 --> 00:03:13,238 At worst it's junk science 44 00:03:13,240 --> 00:03:17,600 and it is a part of a massive, international, scientific fraud. 45 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:23,038 It's a communications consultancy. 46 00:03:23,040 --> 00:03:24,598 Crisis management. 47 00:03:24,600 --> 00:03:27,318 Neil Wallis, ex-editor of a Sunday tabloid 48 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:29,158 and his colleague Sam Bowen. 49 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:31,758 Sam's background is more corporate public relations. 50 00:03:31,760 --> 00:03:33,558 Can we trust them? 51 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:35,398 I think we have to. 52 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,600 We're running out of time. 53 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:40,760 They're accusing him of fraud, Ruth. 54 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:42,800 How is Phil? 55 00:03:47,400 --> 00:03:49,718 You haven't seen a select committee hearing? 56 00:03:49,720 --> 00:03:50,958 No. 57 00:03:50,960 --> 00:03:53,118 It's no walk in the park. 58 00:03:53,120 --> 00:03:55,078 Eight people right there in front of you 59 00:03:55,080 --> 00:03:56,720 and trying to put you on a skewer. 60 00:03:58,000 --> 00:03:59,198 Right. 61 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:01,238 It's the House of Commons, the government. 62 00:04:01,240 --> 00:04:04,238 An all-out vindication and this Professor Philip Jones 63 00:04:04,240 --> 00:04:07,398 and the rest of them have got half a chance. 64 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,878 The slightest whiff of a rap across the knuckles and they're screwed. 65 00:04:10,880 --> 00:04:12,518 So we've got one shot at it? 66 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:14,000 To clear their names? 67 00:04:17,840 --> 00:04:19,200 And three weeks to do it. 68 00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,518 JEREMY PAXMAN: Skulduggery, scientific espionage and black propaganda. 69 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:28,280 Have scientists really been manipulating the data? 70 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:35,838 They claim to be victims of a crime, right? They are. 71 00:04:35,840 --> 00:04:39,358 From the off everyone is all over their arses like they're the criminals. 72 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:42,878 Even the tree huggers, the environment correspondents. 73 00:04:42,880 --> 00:04:46,878 We need institutions independent of them declaring their innocence. 74 00:04:46,880 --> 00:04:48,838 I suppose they don't know, do they? 75 00:04:48,840 --> 00:04:50,158 What? 76 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,118 If they are innocent or if Jones did rig the data 77 00:04:53,120 --> 00:04:56,198 to exaggerate the increase in temperatures? 78 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:57,678 Exactly, 79 00:04:57,680 --> 00:05:00,998 everyone is terrified they're guilty as charged. 80 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,638 Maybe they're right to be. 81 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:06,798 TV: ..tonight faces forensic examination. 82 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:10,198 The temperature graphs at the heart of concern of about climate change 83 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:12,400 will now be picked over by experts. 84 00:05:32,600 --> 00:05:34,958 Edward Acton, Vice-Chancellor. 85 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:36,478 Neil Wallis. Sam Bowen. 86 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:39,318 Pleased to meet you. This is my co-Vice-Chancellor, Trevor Davies. 87 00:05:39,320 --> 00:05:42,998 Trevor. Former director of the Climatic Research Unit, 88 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:44,840 also known as CRU. 89 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:53,920 Three months ago. 90 00:05:54,960 --> 00:05:56,958 When you were hacked? 91 00:05:56,960 --> 00:05:58,078 No. 92 00:05:58,080 --> 00:06:00,718 The hacking itself was some months before. 93 00:06:00,720 --> 00:06:04,160 We only became aware of it when the hacker uploaded the file. 94 00:06:05,240 --> 00:06:08,238 What was he called again? Realclimate.org. 95 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:10,520 The university learned about it the following day. 96 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:14,358 And you, Phil. 97 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:15,960 Is that when you found out? 98 00:06:26,160 --> 00:06:27,680 I... 99 00:06:29,760 --> 00:06:31,800 Yes, that's when we found out too. 100 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,518 And what was your response once you knew there'd been a hack? 101 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,398 We informed the police and told them 102 00:06:38,400 --> 00:06:41,438 there had been an IT system breach. A data theft. 103 00:06:41,440 --> 00:06:44,080 I think that's the phrase that was used. 104 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:56,838 Goodnight. 105 00:06:56,840 --> 00:06:58,080 Goodnight. 106 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:03,518 Thank you, Stella. 107 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,358 You're very welcome. 108 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,358 These are the press office documents 109 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,358 and I've had made this for you - it's the broadcast coverage. 110 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:12,958 Good. 111 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,838 We'll take a look at that tonight. 112 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:16,798 Isn't it rather late? 113 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,798 The House of Commons hearing, it's in three weeks, right? 114 00:07:19,800 --> 00:07:21,398 Yes. 115 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,158 The clock is ticking, Edward, so yeah, we'll be working tonight. 116 00:07:25,160 --> 00:07:27,040 I see, good. 117 00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:29,320 Good. 118 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,678 Jesus, they weren't joking. 119 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,038 He's broken. 120 00:07:38,040 --> 00:07:39,160 Yep. 121 00:07:40,680 --> 00:07:42,318 Do you think he...? 122 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:44,038 He did it? 123 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,558 You'd expect him to be a bit more pissed off, wouldn't you? 124 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:49,080 If he was innocent. 125 00:07:51,120 --> 00:07:53,198 Are you sure I'm the right person for this? 126 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:54,638 I do corporate. 127 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,358 Branding. 128 00:07:56,360 --> 00:07:58,318 Which means you're not digital. 129 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:00,398 Look, whatever. 130 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:02,678 We're here now, aren't we? 131 00:08:02,680 --> 00:08:05,198 Getting paid to get this lot out of a hole, 132 00:08:05,200 --> 00:08:06,840 guilty or not. 133 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:17,880 SEAT BELT CLICKS 134 00:08:24,520 --> 00:08:26,800 CAR ENGINE STARTS 135 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:36,678 OK, thanks for coming, everyone. 136 00:08:36,680 --> 00:08:38,278 Thank you. 137 00:08:38,280 --> 00:08:40,680 Er, let's start with the headlines. 138 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,438 Two days ago the Safer Neighbourhoods team logged 139 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:46,878 a data theft from a backup server 140 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,438 at the University's Climatic Research Unit, known as crew. 141 00:08:50,440 --> 00:08:54,158 Safer Neighbourhoods flagged the call to Special Branch 142 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:56,958 and last night Gold Command, on my recommendation, 143 00:08:56,960 --> 00:09:01,198 initiated Operation Cabin as a major investigation. 144 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:04,198 The contents of the file appears to be 145 00:09:04,200 --> 00:09:06,158 around 1,000 emails 146 00:09:06,160 --> 00:09:09,958 and other documents written over a ten-year period by staff at CRU, 147 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:12,838 mostly by its current director, Professor Philip Jones, 148 00:09:12,840 --> 00:09:14,960 world-renowned climate scientist. 149 00:09:16,240 --> 00:09:18,798 Gareth here is from Kinetic, 150 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:21,758 a defence contractor specialising in cyber security. 151 00:09:21,760 --> 00:09:24,958 His team will lead on the digital investigation, 152 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:28,798 reporting directly to me as senior investigating officer. 153 00:09:28,800 --> 00:09:31,438 The other two lines of inquiry, 154 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,918 physical breach of CRU or an internal leak, 155 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,400 will be overseen by Gold group. 156 00:09:39,880 --> 00:09:43,918 This is a Category A investigation, 157 00:09:43,920 --> 00:09:47,478 so we can hopefully expect some additional support 158 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:50,518 from national counterterrorism Scotland Yard. 159 00:09:50,520 --> 00:09:51,958 Yes. 160 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,198 The Cat A status, 161 00:09:54,200 --> 00:09:56,438 sorry, boss, but who's been murdered? 162 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,558 No-one, DS Suppiah. 163 00:09:59,560 --> 00:10:01,998 So the only crime that we're invest... 164 00:10:02,000 --> 00:10:04,198 The breach of the Computer Misuse Act, section one, 165 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,478 and, depending what we turn up, maybe section two. 166 00:10:07,480 --> 00:10:11,758 Regardless, this is still a Cat A investigation, 167 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:15,998 and I would appreciate it if it were treated as such. 168 00:10:16,000 --> 00:10:19,278 Right, if there aren't any more questions, you know the drill. 169 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:23,598 Any pissed-off employees, office politics, financial vulnerability... 170 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:26,238 ..who had access, what was the IT set-up, 171 00:10:26,240 --> 00:10:29,558 any hint of a motivation, I want to hear about it. 172 00:10:29,560 --> 00:10:31,478 Thank you. 173 00:10:31,480 --> 00:10:33,400 DS Suppiah, a word. 174 00:10:40,320 --> 00:10:43,118 I appreciate this might just be a staff member with an axe to 175 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,638 grind, or some hacker winning a pissing contest, 176 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,118 but if it isn't, look at the timing, join the dots. 177 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:53,158 Three weeks before COP15, the UN Climate Conference. 178 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,718 Think about it, if this is someone trying to influence 179 00:10:55,720 --> 00:10:58,038 the global response to climate change, 180 00:10:58,040 --> 00:11:00,920 well, then, I'd say maybe Cat A isn't high enough. 181 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:21,480 CAMERA CLICKS 182 00:11:46,080 --> 00:11:50,398 The stolen emails are mostly conversations between colleagues, 183 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,398 climate scientists, here and in the US. 184 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,438 And these conversations, they've been taken wholesale? 185 00:11:55,440 --> 00:11:57,358 No, because whoever compiled this file, 186 00:11:57,360 --> 00:11:59,158 they knew what they were looking for. 187 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:01,038 These emails had been selected, 188 00:12:01,040 --> 00:12:03,398 probably using a word search for certain phrases. 189 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:07,078 The first place a link is posted along with this comment here, 190 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,238 "a miracle has happened", is climateaudit.org. 191 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:15,960 It's a climate sceptic blog run by this man, Steve McIntyre. 192 00:12:17,200 --> 00:12:20,638 He's receiving the link, he's not...? He's not sending it? 193 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,718 Yeah, but he's got history with Jones. 194 00:12:23,720 --> 00:12:28,878 Erm, McIntyre is a Canadian ex-mining consultant turned... 195 00:12:28,880 --> 00:12:32,038 ..self-appointed climate science fact checker. 196 00:12:32,040 --> 00:12:33,438 If you look at his blog posts 197 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:35,998 and the comment streams of his website, and the emails, 198 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:39,318 it reveals that there is an established relationship with Jones. 199 00:12:39,320 --> 00:12:45,078 And it seems as far back as 2002, he's been asking Jones for his data. 200 00:12:45,080 --> 00:12:47,838 Which Jones gave him? 201 00:12:47,840 --> 00:12:49,998 Yeah. Initially. 202 00:12:50,000 --> 00:12:53,438 But then, McIntyre started using it to criticise Jones, 203 00:12:53,440 --> 00:12:56,918 to undermine his career, Jones backed off. 204 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,280 McIntyre, well, he got frustrated. 205 00:13:00,800 --> 00:13:04,478 Earlier this year, he persuaded his entire database to send 206 00:13:04,480 --> 00:13:08,238 freedom of information requests to CRU, asking for their raw data. 207 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:10,478 Which they did. Yeah. 208 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,720 Jones was flooded, and I mean flooded, with requests. 209 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,398 60 in one week, look. It's a bloody tsunami. 210 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:21,278 Annoying, but not illegal. 211 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:23,358 Yes, but that's where it gets interesting. 212 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,318 Our initial analysis of the hard drives and servers suggests 213 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,478 that the unit was hacked several times between that same time period. 214 00:13:29,480 --> 00:13:32,238 Are you saying there was more than one breach? Not only that. 215 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,438 McIntyre's requests were formally refused by the university. 216 00:13:35,440 --> 00:13:39,880 And four days later, a file of stolen materials goes live. 217 00:13:41,720 --> 00:13:44,880 I have not falsified any data! 218 00:13:51,960 --> 00:13:53,800 Collusion? 219 00:13:55,640 --> 00:13:59,520 They can't argue with the facts. That's what they do all the time! 220 00:14:03,560 --> 00:14:05,118 Do you really think this is them? 221 00:14:05,120 --> 00:14:07,360 Well, of course it's them! 222 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:31,000 I'm sorry. 223 00:14:32,360 --> 00:14:34,960 I haven't done anything wrong, Ruth. 224 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,278 Are you suggesting that McIntyre was responsible? No. 225 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,278 It was a relatively sophisticated attack, 226 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,278 he wouldn't have the capability. But there was a coordination. 227 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:53,078 More likely someone else with a vested 228 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:55,838 interest in tracking his disputes with CRU. 229 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:59,598 Yeah, you should also speak to this guy. This is Steve Mosher. 230 00:14:59,600 --> 00:15:01,238 He's an established lukewarmer. 231 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:03,198 He doesn't believe that climate change 232 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,918 is as serious as everyone's making out. 233 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,198 When the emails came out, he was in charge of finding 234 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,680 the extracts before they were taken down. 235 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:16,358 "I've just completed Mike's nature trick..." 236 00:15:16,360 --> 00:15:19,198 "..to hide the decline." 237 00:15:19,200 --> 00:15:20,878 "Cheers, Phil." 238 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:23,198 And these are the extracts that are penetrating now? 239 00:15:23,200 --> 00:15:25,958 Yeah. It's a very effective selection. 240 00:15:25,960 --> 00:15:28,640 Mosher knew exactly what he was doing. 241 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:39,598 Have your comms team got Phil's comment on why 242 00:15:39,600 --> 00:15:41,038 he used the word trick? 243 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,998 Already on the website, along with an acknowledgement of the hack. 244 00:15:44,000 --> 00:15:46,478 Look, I think we should do more - defend the science. 245 00:15:46,480 --> 00:15:47,758 We'd be inviting an attack. 246 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:49,918 I'm telling you, there's an established history. 247 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,278 It's a bunch of bloggers, Trevor. 248 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,438 Just let them burn the story out amongst themselves. 249 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:55,718 There was a piece in the Guardian, and surely, it's quite... 250 00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:58,638 Our defence would only raise more questions, give the story oxygen. 251 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,558 We don't want the science questioned, either. Look... 252 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,038 ..if we can get through the weekend without The Today Programme 253 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,158 calling us, I really think we'll be fine, OK? 254 00:16:07,160 --> 00:16:09,118 RADIO: 25 to eight. 255 00:16:09,120 --> 00:16:12,638 Those who are on the sceptic side have seized on these emails. 256 00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:15,078 One of those sceptics is Lord Lawson, the former Chancellor, 257 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,078 whose book, An Appeal To Reason... 258 00:16:17,080 --> 00:16:20,638 On the face of it, it looks as if the raw data were being 259 00:16:20,640 --> 00:16:23,798 manipulated in order to prove what they wanted to prove, 260 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:28,518 that they were refusing to allow other scientists outside 261 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:30,678 access to the raw data, that they 262 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:34,918 were talking about destroying various files in order to prevent 263 00:16:34,920 --> 00:16:38,078 data being revealed through the Freedom of Information Act. 264 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,478 Now, these are very, very serious things. 265 00:16:40,480 --> 00:16:43,038 It may be that there is an innocent explanation for all this, 266 00:16:43,040 --> 00:16:44,358 but what is absolutely clear, 267 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,678 because this is the basis on which policy decisions are being made, 268 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:49,438 to some extent, by the government, 269 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,238 and by governments around the world, it has also tarnished very 270 00:16:53,240 --> 00:16:56,398 badly the international reputation of British science. 271 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:58,240 They'll need... 272 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,998 It's just, we really need some clarity, especially on why 273 00:17:05,000 --> 00:17:08,080 some of the temperature data can't be released to the public. 274 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,080 Shell. 275 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:31,038 "Dear Phil Jones - you should kill yourself. 276 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:32,798 "You lying prick, arsehole. 277 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:35,998 "And if you don't, I'll be more than happy to do it for you. 278 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,720 "And your family." Oh, God. That's terrible. 279 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:43,280 We'll inform the police. 280 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:48,640 Look, Ruth, if he does come round a bit, would you mind... 281 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:52,278 He's the only one who knows the truth about the emails, 282 00:17:52,280 --> 00:17:55,120 the temperature... I know, believe me, I know. 283 00:17:57,440 --> 00:17:59,560 Even his voice has changed, Trevor. 284 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:03,920 Like it's stuck in his throat. 285 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,278 Are you and Grandad coming to my school play, Granny? 286 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:40,198 Of course, sweetheart. 287 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,838 Did... It might just be Granny this time. 288 00:18:43,840 --> 00:18:46,918 OK. OK! 289 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,158 Bye. Bye. 290 00:18:49,160 --> 00:18:51,838 Bye, Granny, see you soon. Bye! 291 00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,800 RUTH SOBS 292 00:18:59,440 --> 00:19:02,080 These are the most damaging extracts. 293 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,078 Can you delete any emails you may have had with Keith? 294 00:19:06,080 --> 00:19:08,278 Keith will do likewise. 295 00:19:08,280 --> 00:19:11,438 "We're choosing the periods to show warming. 296 00:19:11,440 --> 00:19:14,598 "I've just completed Mike's nature trick... 297 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:16,638 "..to hide the decline." 298 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,878 The press inquiries haven't stopped all morning, it's unprecedented. 299 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,278 Like nothing anyone's seen before. And from the US now to... 300 00:19:22,280 --> 00:19:24,518 What is it they want, specifically? Phil. 301 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,758 The extracts are mostly from his emails. 302 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:28,198 And he's the director of CRU. 303 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:31,278 They want to know why all of CRU's data isn't available as well. 304 00:19:31,280 --> 00:19:34,238 But in terms of people, Phil. No-one else. 305 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,398 I'm afraid that's not going to be possible. 306 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:38,918 Well, surely you don't stand by his comments on the website? Yeah. 307 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,638 Why isn't Phil available? 308 00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,280 It would be the clearest way to set things straight. I agree. 309 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:47,640 I went round there this morning after the Lawson interview. 310 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,080 The man's struggling. 311 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,198 30 years ago, do you remember, 312 00:19:56,200 --> 00:19:59,438 you had that offer of work in California? 313 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:02,800 And we came here to talk about it, about the kids moving school. 314 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:06,920 What it would all mean. 315 00:20:08,120 --> 00:20:10,560 And you got so excited. 316 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:14,440 Not about going, but about staying. 317 00:20:16,800 --> 00:20:18,720 About what that meant. 318 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,200 Do you remember? 319 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,200 Philip, if I can remember, I know you do. 320 00:20:32,280 --> 00:20:35,638 "It's going to be important," that's what you said. 321 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:39,118 Politicians were just starting to talk about global warming, 322 00:20:39,120 --> 00:20:43,518 and you said that when they finally came to act on it, 323 00:20:43,520 --> 00:20:45,918 they'd needed data they could trust. 324 00:20:45,920 --> 00:20:49,638 They'd need evidence, and that you, CRU, would be 325 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:51,758 able to give it to them. 326 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:53,760 Well, that time is now, Philip. 327 00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:57,600 And you were right. 328 00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:02,080 They do need your evidence. 329 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:09,840 Which is why we can't let these bastards destroy all you've done. 330 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,880 It's too important. 331 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:20,840 You're too important. 332 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,638 "I've found what I can do, Ruth." 333 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,880 That's what you said. 334 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:37,840 "And the place I can do it." 335 00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,520 God, and I so wanted to go to California! 336 00:21:51,560 --> 00:21:54,560 Did you? Yeah! RUTH LAUGHS 337 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,920 You're going to have to speak up, Philip. 338 00:22:09,080 --> 00:22:11,878 We'll issue a press statement with Phil's comment from the website. 339 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:14,638 And let's see if he'll do a press Association interview, at least. 340 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:16,198 Just print, no TV. 341 00:22:16,200 --> 00:22:19,638 Let's announce an independent inquiry into the allegations 342 00:22:19,640 --> 00:22:22,358 and into the actions of our staff. 343 00:22:22,360 --> 00:22:24,918 If there has been malpractice, 344 00:22:24,920 --> 00:22:27,678 we must show we're keen as mustard to investigate. 345 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,440 And we need support, too. 346 00:22:30,560 --> 00:22:32,520 Public support. 347 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:39,638 Thanks, Chris. Any help in releasing the data is hugely appreciated. 348 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,878 We were wondering if your department could give a statement to... 349 00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:46,038 I'll see what I can do. We really need help on this one, Chris. 350 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:47,998 Trevor, sorry, look, I've got to go. 351 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,278 Sir David, have you seen the CRU fallout? 352 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:51,798 Christ, haven't I? 353 00:22:51,800 --> 00:22:54,118 What the bloody hell were they thinking about? 354 00:22:54,120 --> 00:22:57,398 I mean, I wouldn't accept such loose practices from my students. 355 00:22:57,400 --> 00:23:00,238 Well, siege mentality. I mean, the deniers have had him 356 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,558 in their sights for as long as I can remember. That is... 357 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:04,318 ..precisely when you have to be careful, 358 00:23:04,320 --> 00:23:05,678 when you think you're in a battle. 359 00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,718 I mean, not to put the data in the public domain. 360 00:23:07,720 --> 00:23:10,078 Well, to be fair, Sir David, it isn't theirs to give. 361 00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:11,478 What do you mean? 362 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,878 Well, CRU built its models on data from meteorological services. 363 00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,760 And sometimes, that data comes with nondisclosure agreements. 364 00:23:19,320 --> 00:23:21,998 Sir David King, School of Enterprise and the Environment, 365 00:23:22,000 --> 00:23:23,760 Oxford University. 366 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:27,158 Thanks very much. 367 00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,198 I've been on the phone all morning to the Met Office, 368 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,998 putting pressure on them to give clearance to release all the data. 369 00:23:33,000 --> 00:23:35,240 And? Not yet. 370 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:38,238 Any news about the hack? 371 00:23:38,240 --> 00:23:40,598 Nothing I've heard. Any thoughts? 372 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:42,118 Well, take your pick. 373 00:23:42,120 --> 00:23:44,398 Could be the Russians, the Saudis, the oil companies, 374 00:23:44,400 --> 00:23:47,918 anybody who's got money in the game. But you know, it's clever, 375 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:50,800 going after the data behind the modelling. 376 00:23:52,120 --> 00:23:53,758 I don't understand why everyone 377 00:23:53,760 --> 00:23:55,718 expects science models to be perfect. 378 00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,158 I mean, no-one ever goes after economic models, do they? 379 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,518 No, that's because nobody's trying to undermine the economics. 380 00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:03,158 LIFT BELL PINGS 381 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:06,198 Do you really think it will affect the COP in Copenhagen? 382 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,358 Well, it might scare the horses a bit, 383 00:24:08,360 --> 00:24:11,438 but no, this COP is dead in the water anyway. 384 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,318 You really think so? Come on, Chris. 385 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,718 I mean, the USA are not going to sign up to their commitment 386 00:24:17,720 --> 00:24:20,478 to carbon reductions unless it's voluntary, and 387 00:24:20,480 --> 00:24:23,480 if they won't sign, then neither will the Chinese or the Russians. 388 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:31,398 Look, do what you can about getting the Met to release that data. 389 00:24:31,400 --> 00:24:33,918 It could douse the flames. 390 00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:36,838 Now, the head of a British climate research institute has 391 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,278 stepped aside after leaked emails were said to suggest that the 392 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,278 case for global warming had been exaggerated. 393 00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:46,238 Phil Jones, at the University of East Anglia, will relinquish 394 00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:48,918 his duties while an independent review is carried out. 395 00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:51,520 Our environment correspondent, David Shukman... 396 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:50,198 There are more stolen emails. No, I... I'm saying there's a lot more. 397 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,718 Almost 200,000 in total. Shit! 200...? 398 00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:57,438 So, the really odd thing, that they left the cache on the server. 399 00:25:57,440 --> 00:25:58,958 Which is almost like they, well... 400 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:01,878 I guess it's almost like they wanted us to know. What are you saying? 401 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:03,158 Well, it means that CRU wasn't 402 00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:04,838 the only climate unit that was attacked. 403 00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:06,678 There were more hacks? Attempts. 404 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:08,638 CRU was the only successful breach. 405 00:26:08,640 --> 00:26:10,398 What were the other attempts? 406 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,958 OK, so, persons unknown posing as network technicians tried to 407 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,718 gain access to climate science offices at the University 408 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:18,718 of Victoria, British Columbia. 409 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:21,398 And there were attempts to access the servers at the Canadian 410 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,478 Centre for Climatology and Analysis, the National Center 411 00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,278 of Atmospheric Research in Colorado, 412 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:29,198 and an attempted unauthorised entry 413 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,598 to the computer systems at the State Department Climate Bureau. 414 00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:35,840 And when, when was all this? This is all in the last 12 months. 415 00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:41,600 You do know he's the victim? 416 00:26:43,440 --> 00:26:45,238 It's his emails that were stolen. 417 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:47,838 It's him that's being dragged through the papers. 418 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:49,638 Why aren't you going after who did this? 419 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,320 I realise this must be upsetting. No-one's getting the truth. 420 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:56,000 Just what they read, what they hear. 421 00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,838 Where are you going? Just down to the station. We just... Why? 422 00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,438 We need to print the statement and have it signed immediately. 423 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:08,718 Well, use our bloody printer! Ruth, it's fine. 424 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,800 We'll be 30 minutes, I promise. 425 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,238 This hockey stick graph, the one that you 426 00:27:21,240 --> 00:27:24,798 mention in the interview, why is it so important exactly? 427 00:27:24,800 --> 00:27:26,078 Well, it's... 428 00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:28,958 It's a reconstruction of global temperature, a... 429 00:27:28,960 --> 00:27:34,280 ..a window into the past, I suppose, back 1,000 years. 430 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:46,640 All these are decades here. 431 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,078 That is the handle of the stick. 432 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:56,038 And here, in the 19th century, when industrialisation takes off, 433 00:27:56,040 --> 00:27:59,638 erm, up until now, that's the... 434 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:04,158 ..erm, that's the blade, when temperatures increase dramatically. 435 00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:08,518 This is your work? Well, I contributed. 436 00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,918 CRU was the first unit to be dedicated to the 437 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:14,798 subject of climate change. 438 00:28:14,800 --> 00:28:17,198 We devoted more time than anyone else to... 439 00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:20,918 ..to, erm...gather the temperature data. 440 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,238 It's not just from across the world, but from across time. 441 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:26,960 Wow. 442 00:28:28,160 --> 00:28:32,398 From before we had thermometer readings, erm... 443 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,240 ..historical, erm, records, ships' logs. 444 00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:43,318 And then even further back, er, proxy data, such as tree rings 445 00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:46,838 and ice cores. I saw the tree rings on the walls of your office. 446 00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:48,600 They're beautiful. 447 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,118 Well, we... Erm... 448 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:56,598 ..all of that, the proxy and historical data goes into the graph. 449 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:00,038 That's... It, erm... 450 00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:02,838 ..helps make the past... 451 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:05,120 ..readable. 452 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:12,600 Best get you home, yeah. 453 00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,760 Thank you. 454 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,478 Who's doing this, Trevor? Who knows? 455 00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,758 Plenty of vested interests would like Copenhagen to fail. 456 00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:28,840 I know why they're doing it to us, though. 457 00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:32,638 The hockey stick graph. Yes...? 458 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,238 The one showing the rise in global temperatures? 459 00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,998 Yeah, CRU's work has been keystone to that graph. 460 00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,118 I mean, it was meant to be the final word in the debate. 461 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,118 The science behind it is complex, 462 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:47,398 though the way it conveys it is simple, it cuts through the noise. 463 00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:49,638 That's what the sceptics don't like. 464 00:29:49,640 --> 00:29:52,518 Ever since it was published, they've known, if they're to keep 465 00:29:52,520 --> 00:29:56,678 the debate going, they have to cast doubt on the hockey stick. 466 00:29:56,680 --> 00:29:58,118 Crafty buggers. 467 00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,078 Sorry. That was a long one. 468 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:04,118 Must have done over 20 interviews now. 469 00:30:04,120 --> 00:30:06,918 It's like speaking into a storm. 470 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:09,798 No-one can hear us. 471 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,598 Or wants to. 472 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,678 We're being drowned out by a sigh of relief. 473 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:15,958 Relief? 474 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:18,798 Well, imagine if you woke up tomorrow to be told you don't 475 00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:20,640 have to worry about climate change. 476 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,398 Millions of dollars have gone into the denial campaigns. 477 00:30:25,400 --> 00:30:27,318 And most of it to achieve exactly this, 478 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:30,518 to make the science seem uncertain. 479 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,358 It's been going on for years, 480 00:30:32,360 --> 00:30:34,958 ever since we first started talking about actually doing 481 00:30:34,960 --> 00:30:38,318 something about global warming. Which was when, exactly? 482 00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:42,320 Oh, late '80s. So those campaigns... 483 00:30:43,800 --> 00:30:47,558 ..essentially, they bought themselves time with those millions. 484 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,680 They've had decades to prepare a receptive environment. 485 00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:53,758 Whoever hacked into us... 486 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:58,358 All they had to do was release those emails in the right places 487 00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:00,318 and sit back and watch. 488 00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,478 They've had 20 years to prepare for this. We've had days. 489 00:31:04,480 --> 00:31:06,280 We need crisis management advice. 490 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,958 It's a straight choice. Duck it or fight it. 491 00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:15,518 But how do we fight it if the world wants Phil and the data 492 00:31:15,520 --> 00:31:17,598 and we can't provide either. 493 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,438 OK, well, if Phil can't do the interviews, then you have to. 494 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:24,040 What about the independent inquiry? 495 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,518 No-one gets hacked for the sake of it. There's always intent. 496 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,238 The UN Climate Conference, the COP, it opens next week, right? 497 00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,918 Yes. So, it's a strategy. 498 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,438 Someone's decided to take positive action to... 499 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:42,398 We don't actually know if that's the case. Nothing's a coincidence. 500 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,318 Sow doubt where there's certainty, 501 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,718 apply a minor inconsistency to the entire evidence, discredit 502 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:53,078 a group of people, muddy the debate, all to achieve policy outcry. 503 00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,198 It's hardly new. 504 00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,518 Straight out of the tobacco companies' playbook 505 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:01,038 when they were stalling for time on cigarettes and cancer. Mm. 506 00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,038 Other interest groups have used the same strategies around 507 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,598 pesticides, the ozone hole, acid rain. 508 00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,680 It's not like we haven't seen these tactics before. No. 509 00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:15,040 Never with the internet. The blocks. 510 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,880 Yeah, that IS new. I'll admit there's no playbook for that. 511 00:32:24,280 --> 00:32:25,480 Look... 512 00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:29,280 This isn't going to be easy. 513 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:34,998 For a start, you're a...white, middle-aged, posh man. Hm. 514 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,120 It's going to be hard for you to go on TV and come across as likeable. 515 00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:41,998 Yes... 516 00:32:42,000 --> 00:32:43,400 Yes, I see. 517 00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:46,560 It's your only choice. 518 00:32:47,680 --> 00:32:49,080 Do nothing now... 519 00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:52,440 ..that's as good as being guilty. 520 00:33:00,160 --> 00:33:03,438 Now, it's hard to believe that some emails written on a university 521 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,078 campus in Norwich could be quite so damaging. 522 00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,478 Today, Saudi Arabia's chief climate change negotiator, no less, 523 00:33:09,480 --> 00:33:12,198 said the leaked emails from scientists at the Climate 524 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,678 Research Unit at the University of East Anglia will have a huge 525 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,160 impact on next week's Copenhagen summit, even as it's... 526 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:28,000 You shouldn't be watching that. Why not? It's what I've done. 527 00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:31,640 That's not true. 528 00:33:36,000 --> 00:33:38,520 They've finally found a way to get me, Ruth. 529 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:42,600 And they'll, well... 530 00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:49,160 ..pull at this thread until it all unravels! 531 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,600 They've won, Ruth. No. They haven't! 532 00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,080 They know the truth is out there now. 533 00:34:01,880 --> 00:34:06,198 So all they can do is try to find ways of delaying how soon it 534 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:07,438 reaches everyone. 535 00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,798 That's not the actions of people who've won. Philip, 536 00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:15,160 that's the desperation of people who've lost. 537 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,118 You're forgetting something. 538 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:22,000 What? 539 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:29,000 Not everyone wants the truth to reach them. 540 00:35:02,560 --> 00:35:06,440 So, what do you think? I think they're screwed. 541 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,318 The blogs I get and the American right wing networks, 542 00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:27,798 but the mainstream media following their lead... 543 00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:29,838 The BBC, for Christ's sake! 544 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,398 Which is why we need to get him out there. Phil? 545 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,480 We need to put a human face on this, before the House of Commons hearing. 546 00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:41,558 Get the public back on our side. He could barely talk. 547 00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,838 Which is why it has to be print. 548 00:35:43,840 --> 00:35:45,278 No TV. 549 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,000 You're serious? We'll have to coach him. 550 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,198 Sunday Times, front page. Do you think they'll take it? 551 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:54,640 They'll love it! 552 00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,598 It's what they've been baying for, isn't it? 553 00:35:58,600 --> 00:36:00,278 The man at the heart of it. 554 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:03,918 Edward tried his best, but no-one wanted to know. 555 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:06,078 So we throw them to the lions. 556 00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:09,478 With a couple of lion tamers in the room. 557 00:36:09,480 --> 00:36:12,358 But yeah, if it means we're the ones feeding them for a bit. 558 00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,238 That's exactly what we do. 559 00:36:14,240 --> 00:36:16,718 No time for anything else. 560 00:36:16,720 --> 00:36:20,120 Not with that House of Commons committee breathing down our necks. 561 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,600 We'll coach him here. Today. 562 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:29,760 Are you sure this is the right...? I'm positive. 563 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:34,960 Unless you want to cut him loose. Out of the question. 564 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:39,518 Well, I had to check. 565 00:36:39,520 --> 00:36:43,518 Because if it's the reputation of the university you're trying 566 00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:45,080 to save... It isn't. 567 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:52,158 It isn't? Well, yes, it is, but that's no longer the priority. 568 00:36:52,160 --> 00:36:55,278 This is about more than the university now. 569 00:36:55,280 --> 00:36:58,118 Much more. The science? 570 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,760 The truth. Right. That's what's at stake here. 571 00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:07,478 And who gets to tell the truth, 572 00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:09,238 or not, 573 00:37:09,240 --> 00:37:13,040 about something that affects every living thing on the planet. 574 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:27,398 Mea culpa. That's what you open with, before anything else. 575 00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:30,598 I'll brief the journalists to ask about the data stuff first, 576 00:37:30,600 --> 00:37:34,278 the Freedom of Information request. When he does, you put your hands up. 577 00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:37,358 Admit you got it wrong... But those requests, they weren't genuine. 578 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:39,358 Yes, we know... The data was already... 579 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:41,118 But admitting that you got frustrated, 580 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:43,758 you could have handled it better, that's very relatable. Yeah. 581 00:37:43,760 --> 00:37:46,398 Getting pissed off with a bunch of timewasters who want to prove 582 00:37:46,400 --> 00:37:49,318 you wrong, there's no shame in that. No data was destroyed. 583 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:50,958 And that's exactly what you'll say, 584 00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,598 after you've acknowledged what you could have done better. 585 00:37:53,600 --> 00:37:57,080 You say it then and people will listen. It'll sound true. 586 00:38:01,840 --> 00:38:03,280 It is true. 587 00:38:04,560 --> 00:38:08,318 But I need to believe you when you say it is. 588 00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,120 That's all that matters. 589 00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,398 Right, so, we take a little bit of this and pop it in here. 590 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:22,278 And then, if you take your finger and poke a nice hole in there. 591 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,438 That's it. And then, what do you think you do? 592 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:27,520 Put an acorn in? Yes. Just the one. 593 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:35,000 There. Maybe a little bit more. 594 00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:44,158 So, a trick is just a clever way of doing something. 595 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,918 In statistical modelling, yes, or in maths, a short cut. 596 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:51,918 It still sounds suspect. A trick of the trade? A technique? 597 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,158 If you like, a solution to a problem. 598 00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:57,478 But nothing more? No. Good. 599 00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:00,998 But then, we get to hide the decline. 600 00:39:01,000 --> 00:39:04,238 Sent everyone through the roof, this one, hasn't it? 601 00:39:04,240 --> 00:39:06,800 Sarah Palin, the US networks, the papers. 602 00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:09,598 What's your defence? 603 00:39:09,600 --> 00:39:11,678 Because it had better be a bloody good one. 604 00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:14,358 In as few words as possible, simple and short. 605 00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:16,040 And in a way I'll believe it. 606 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:22,118 It's about tree rings. 607 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:23,918 What? 608 00:39:23,920 --> 00:39:25,958 Well, the decline. 609 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:28,078 It isn't about temperatures. 610 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:29,520 Go on. 611 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,158 To predict the future, we've got to understand the past. 612 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:40,440 Hubert Lamb's... I'm not interested. Try again. 613 00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,360 Go on, Phil. 614 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:51,918 Temperature records consist of two kinds of measurements. 615 00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:56,478 From around the mid 19th century, we have actual instrument recordings... 616 00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:57,800 Try it as a question. 617 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:03,118 Um... 618 00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:07,198 How do we obtain measurements from further back, 619 00:40:07,200 --> 00:40:11,958 from before we have instrument recordings? Good! I have no idea. 620 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:16,438 Educate me. How do we? We use, um, proxy data... Sorry, Phil. 621 00:40:16,440 --> 00:40:20,960 How else might you explain "proxy"? What is it? Um... 622 00:40:24,920 --> 00:40:26,240 The... 623 00:40:27,640 --> 00:40:30,080 The natural world has a memory. 624 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:36,678 It can preserve the physical characteristics of the past. 625 00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,598 Past temperatures? Er, yes. Um, and weather events. 626 00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,598 What kind of characteristics? 627 00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:47,480 Well, concentrations of oxygen isotopes in ice. 628 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:52,998 Or the composition and annual banding in corals. 629 00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:57,638 Or the... The width and the density of annual tree ring growth. 630 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,200 Tree rings? 631 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:05,798 Yes, they're wider in a season of good growth, when it's warmer, 632 00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,918 and narrower in a season of restricted growth, when it's colder. 633 00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,358 So, you add this stuff, natural characteristics, to the 634 00:41:13,360 --> 00:41:16,398 instrument measurements and you get a record of temperatures 635 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,080 stretching back in time before thermometers? 636 00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:23,720 It isn't quite that simple. Put simply, though, is Neil right? 637 00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:26,638 Well, yes. 638 00:41:26,640 --> 00:41:30,398 So, what's being hidden, then, in the paper, 639 00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,640 you were discussing in that email? 640 00:41:34,080 --> 00:41:37,438 I was writing about one diagram, 641 00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:42,160 not a scientific paper. Phil, split any more hairs and I'll go bald. 642 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,198 It's OK, Phil. Just try to answer the question. 643 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:51,480 What were you hiding? 644 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:07,560 This is the diagram. 645 00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:11,878 The blue line is the hockey stick, 646 00:42:11,880 --> 00:42:14,398 the red line is my own similar reconstructions 647 00:42:14,400 --> 00:42:19,038 and the green line was produced by my colleague, Keith Briffa, 648 00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:21,160 using tree ring density data. 649 00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:28,078 Keith's data produced similar results to my own reconstruction, 650 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:32,838 until 1960, when it began to diverge. 651 00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:35,158 Diverge? What do you mean? 652 00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:40,078 Well, the real temperatures increase sharply after 1960. 653 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,438 But the tree rings got narrower, less dense, 654 00:42:44,440 --> 00:42:49,278 as if the temperature was decreasing, getting colder. 655 00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,278 Why would they do that? Well, we're not sure. Um... 656 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,438 Acid rain, or the depletion in the ozone layer, but whatever 657 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,198 the cause, the tree ring data 658 00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,358 becomes unreliable after 1960. 659 00:43:02,360 --> 00:43:06,478 But if it's unreliable then, how do we know it was any good before? 660 00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:11,238 Its match to previous instrument readings were strong 661 00:43:11,240 --> 00:43:16,398 and universal all through the 19th and 20th century until 1960. 662 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,320 But on the graph, there's no divergence? Yes, and... 663 00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:24,158 ..I knew that the data became unreliable, 664 00:43:24,160 --> 00:43:30,518 so I included only the real temperatures in the green line. 665 00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:32,120 To hide the decline. 666 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,480 In tree ring density. But not the temperature? 667 00:43:40,000 --> 00:43:42,920 Well... There was no decline in temperature to hide. 668 00:43:44,360 --> 00:43:48,040 Every thermometer in the world will say the opposite. 669 00:43:49,880 --> 00:43:53,280 The temperatures were rising all through that period. 670 00:43:57,440 --> 00:43:58,920 And they still are. 671 00:44:07,640 --> 00:44:10,118 Jesus! 672 00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,960 They really screwed you over, didn't they? 673 00:44:50,800 --> 00:44:53,520 Both down? Flat out. 674 00:44:58,160 --> 00:45:02,358 So, how's he doing, your scientist? 675 00:45:02,360 --> 00:45:04,400 Not too great, to be honest. 676 00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,638 And who do you think did this to him? 677 00:45:11,640 --> 00:45:13,200 The hack? 678 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:16,078 Who knows? 679 00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,638 But whoever's behind what's happened since knows their stuff. 680 00:45:20,640 --> 00:45:24,678 I mean, a few months ago, there was consensus on global warming. 681 00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:26,840 Now, headlines across the world. 682 00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:31,638 Could have all just happened? 683 00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,278 Might not be anyone behind it at all. 684 00:45:35,280 --> 00:45:41,120 Some big players have had plans for ages. Oil companies, especially. 685 00:45:42,600 --> 00:45:45,600 They all want to stop the science getting out there. 686 00:45:48,240 --> 00:45:51,720 What's so crazy is they knew more about it than anyone else. 687 00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:56,398 All through the '80s, they had the best climate scientists, 688 00:45:56,400 --> 00:45:57,560 scenario planners... 689 00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:03,438 And these guys, they're telling them, the CEOs, the boards, 690 00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:05,278 increasing CO2 in the atmosphere, 691 00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:09,998 it's going to be a major problem for the whole world. 692 00:46:10,000 --> 00:46:14,718 Extreme weather, food shortages, mass migrations... 693 00:46:14,720 --> 00:46:16,240 So what did they do? 694 00:46:21,760 --> 00:46:24,240 I can't believe I'm saying this, but... 695 00:46:26,320 --> 00:46:28,158 ..they took all that, 696 00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:33,158 all that knowledge, which they had more of, in more detail, 697 00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,238 and earlier than anyone else, and... 698 00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:38,718 Well, they used it to get ahead of the curve, to come 699 00:46:38,720 --> 00:46:43,158 up with strategies to keep the public uncertain, unconcerned. 700 00:46:43,160 --> 00:46:46,838 What kind of strategies? Front organisations, mostly. 701 00:46:46,840 --> 00:46:49,678 Produce alternative research that backed their message 702 00:46:49,680 --> 00:46:51,118 and then pushed it to the media. 703 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,358 Ah, PR then. 704 00:46:53,360 --> 00:46:54,720 Marketing. 705 00:46:56,520 --> 00:46:57,600 Like what you do. 706 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:00,798 No, Dad. 707 00:47:00,800 --> 00:47:04,160 At least with what I do, you know who's pitching to you. 708 00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:08,798 When I read the projections about what could happen 709 00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:10,160 if we don't do anything... 710 00:47:12,720 --> 00:47:15,520 ..and when I see those dates, 2040 to 2050... 711 00:47:17,160 --> 00:47:19,640 ..I can't help thinking how old the girls will be. 712 00:47:20,880 --> 00:47:22,480 What their lives will be like. 713 00:47:24,360 --> 00:47:25,880 How do you know all this? 714 00:47:26,960 --> 00:47:28,120 There's a paper trail. 715 00:47:29,200 --> 00:47:30,718 If you know where to look. 716 00:47:30,720 --> 00:47:34,678 You think it's the oil companies, then, stole the emails? 717 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:36,080 Jesus, I don't know, Dad. 718 00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:38,880 It's the internet. 719 00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,240 A dark place, filled with darker places. 720 00:47:44,080 --> 00:47:47,198 I just hope we're doing the right thing. 721 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:48,720 Why wouldn't you be? 722 00:47:49,760 --> 00:47:54,360 This isn't a flagship store, some new trainers. 723 00:47:56,720 --> 00:47:58,240 If we get this wrong, it's... 724 00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:02,600 It's game over for him. 725 00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,558 Give Lily a birthday kiss from me. 726 00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,240 Of course. 727 00:48:54,720 --> 00:48:55,840 Um... 728 00:48:57,360 --> 00:48:59,118 Um... 729 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:00,880 I'm...so sorry, Ruth. 730 00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:11,400 You just call me when it's done... 731 00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:15,600 ..with that journalist. 732 00:49:46,800 --> 00:49:49,240 SHE SOBS 733 00:49:52,720 --> 00:49:54,920 Oh...God! 734 00:49:58,920 --> 00:49:59,960 Philip! 735 00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,880 Good morning. Morning. Morning. How are you? Good. Good. Good. 736 00:50:08,360 --> 00:50:09,400 Are you ready? Yep. 737 00:50:10,840 --> 00:50:14,118 You're going to be all right. I'll introduce you to Richard. 738 00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:15,680 Neil! 739 00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:21,798 Thank you, love. 740 00:50:21,800 --> 00:50:23,680 They've done this before, you know. 741 00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:27,598 I'm sorry? Gone after people. Scientists. 742 00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:30,398 Just for doing their job. He'll be fine. I promise. 743 00:50:30,400 --> 00:50:31,758 I don't want your promises. 744 00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:34,198 I want to be sure you know what you're doing. Yes, we do. 745 00:50:34,200 --> 00:50:37,718 I've been in this game a long time. But it isn't! 746 00:50:37,720 --> 00:50:41,838 Don't you see that? Not to us. I'm sorry, I... A game. 747 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,118 That's not what I meant. That man in there, 748 00:50:44,120 --> 00:50:46,558 the man you're about to let the press at... Yeah. 749 00:50:46,560 --> 00:50:49,838 ..the press who've dragged him through the mud for months, he's my husband. 750 00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:52,998 A father, a grandfather, someone who's tried to spend his whole 751 00:50:53,000 --> 00:50:57,038 life getting closer to the truth. His work is important. I... 752 00:50:57,040 --> 00:51:01,038 HE is important! So I bloody well hope you do know what you're doing 753 00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,158 because this might be just a job to you, but for us, 754 00:51:04,160 --> 00:51:07,920 we could lose everything! Do you understand? Everything! 755 00:51:27,720 --> 00:51:29,800 Do you have any regrets? 756 00:51:34,160 --> 00:51:36,598 Well, I regret that I didn't deal with 757 00:51:36,600 --> 00:51:39,078 the Freedom of Information request in a better way. 758 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:42,040 I... I misjudged the situation. 759 00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:45,918 How, exactly? 760 00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:47,400 Well, um... 761 00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:53,198 According to the rules, we're supposed to do 18 hours of work 762 00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,998 on each one before we're allowed to turn it down and, um, 763 00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:59,758 we received 40 over one weekend, 764 00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,638 all requesting the same data from five different countries. 765 00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,958 We were being targeted. You think they wanted to waste your time? 766 00:52:06,960 --> 00:52:09,278 Well, the data was available elsewhere. 767 00:52:09,280 --> 00:52:13,118 They were trying to slow us down, take us away from our work. 768 00:52:13,120 --> 00:52:15,680 And the messages you sent about deleting the data? 769 00:52:17,280 --> 00:52:22,958 Er, well, er... It wasn't data. It was emails and, um... 770 00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:24,638 Well, that was... 771 00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:26,440 That was... Um... 772 00:52:28,400 --> 00:52:30,678 Er... 773 00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:32,918 Frustration, um... 774 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:34,760 They were written in anger. 775 00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:37,960 But you did destroy the data? 776 00:52:39,240 --> 00:52:44,678 Um, no. It wasn't our data to destroy. It... We interpret it. 777 00:52:44,680 --> 00:52:46,480 We don't create or collect it. 778 00:52:47,720 --> 00:52:50,758 So when the story broke, this was all just before the 779 00:52:50,760 --> 00:52:55,038 UN Climate Conference in Copenhagen, right? Yes. 780 00:52:55,040 --> 00:52:56,478 Did that worry you? 781 00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:58,878 That your emails might be responsible for undermining 782 00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:02,918 the talks two months ago? Yes. Yes, it did. 783 00:53:02,920 --> 00:53:05,798 An opportunity the world cannot afford to miss. 784 00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:08,558 The UN Climate Conference gets under way in Copenhagen. 785 00:53:08,560 --> 00:53:09,878 The mood music is positive 786 00:53:09,880 --> 00:53:12,958 and thousands of people have converged on Copenhagen, 787 00:53:12,960 --> 00:53:17,318 hoping that some sort of historic deal might be within reach, 788 00:53:17,320 --> 00:53:19,798 but there are a whole range of really... 789 00:53:19,800 --> 00:53:22,998 Surely, the CRU emails are going to undermine the talks, aren't they? 790 00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:26,398 The UN's chief climate scientist has already said as such. 791 00:53:26,400 --> 00:53:29,318 Look, I'm a member of the UK negotiating team. 792 00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,638 I know how this process works. 793 00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:35,518 These negotiators are grown ups. They know their science. 794 00:53:35,520 --> 00:53:39,558 Some fabricated scandal is not going to affect their opinion. 795 00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:43,158 The Saudi negotiator has already said the emails questions 796 00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:45,238 the validity of this conference. 797 00:53:45,240 --> 00:53:48,278 Well, considering he's had breakfast with a different oil company 798 00:53:48,280 --> 00:53:51,638 every morning this week, I suppose he would, wouldn't he? 799 00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,718 Look, these talks might fail, 800 00:53:54,720 --> 00:53:59,118 but it's not going to be because of some stolen emails. 801 00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:01,558 Any thoughts on who might have stolen the emails? 802 00:54:01,560 --> 00:54:04,518 Well, it seems coordinated, so I... 803 00:54:04,520 --> 00:54:06,478 It could be an intelligence operation. 804 00:54:06,480 --> 00:54:10,598 The file was loaded on a server in Tomsk. Do you think this was Russia? 805 00:54:10,600 --> 00:54:12,518 Oh, yes, absolutely. 806 00:54:12,520 --> 00:54:15,198 Well, I have seen first-hand how active 807 00:54:15,200 --> 00:54:18,558 they can be in stifling the science of global warming, 808 00:54:18,560 --> 00:54:23,238 but equally, it could also be the American oil lobby system. 809 00:54:23,240 --> 00:54:27,598 After all, they are the main source of finance behind these sort of things. 810 00:54:27,600 --> 00:54:32,358 So you really think whoever did this wasn't trying to derail the talks? 811 00:54:32,360 --> 00:54:35,398 Was it a coincidence that these emails were released 812 00:54:35,400 --> 00:54:38,320 just before this COP? Absolutely not! 813 00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:43,438 But it's public opinion they're trying to influence, 814 00:54:43,440 --> 00:54:45,318 not these negotiations. 815 00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:49,318 That's what will affect policy, so no, 816 00:54:49,320 --> 00:54:52,198 this conference is not their target, 817 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:54,758 but it is their stage. 818 00:54:54,760 --> 00:54:59,838 The, um, hockey stick is shattered beyond repair. 819 00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:03,598 And we're talking about it today because of Climategate. 820 00:55:03,600 --> 00:55:07,958 It's a huge deal. Don't take my word for it. 821 00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:11,718 Just do an internet search and here's what you find. 822 00:55:11,720 --> 00:55:14,838 George Monbiot in the Guardian, 823 00:55:14,840 --> 00:55:20,198 "Pretending this is not a real crisis isn't going to make it 824 00:55:20,200 --> 00:55:24,438 "go away. Phil Jones has got to go." 825 00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:28,918 Christopher Brooker, the UK Telegraph, "This is the worst 826 00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:32,520 "scientific scandal of our generation." 827 00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:39,478 The scientists involved in the CRU controversy violated 828 00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:44,078 fundamental ethical principles, governing taxpayer funded research. 829 00:55:44,080 --> 00:55:48,158 And in some cases, may have violated federal laws. 830 00:55:48,160 --> 00:55:50,798 Now, for this reason, 831 00:55:50,800 --> 00:55:55,038 I am calling for the following key players to be investigated 832 00:55:55,040 --> 00:56:00,078 with possible referral to the US Justice Department for prosecution - 833 00:56:00,080 --> 00:56:02,680 Phil Jones, Keith Briffa. 834 00:56:04,720 --> 00:56:07,640 CRASHING WAVE 835 00:56:35,680 --> 00:56:37,080 And, um... 836 00:56:38,720 --> 00:56:40,840 ..some of these messages you received... 837 00:56:42,480 --> 00:56:45,080 ..were they death threats? Yes. 838 00:56:48,600 --> 00:56:50,320 And if you don't mind me asking... 839 00:56:51,720 --> 00:56:53,440 ..what would they say, exactly? 840 00:56:56,720 --> 00:56:59,398 Well, that they knew where I lived. 841 00:56:59,400 --> 00:57:00,880 That... 842 00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,160 ..I should kill myself. 843 00:57:07,360 --> 00:57:08,760 And if I didn't... 844 00:57:11,520 --> 00:57:13,040 ..they'd do it for me. 845 00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:16,960 And did, um... 846 00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,240 Did you ever think about that? 847 00:57:23,960 --> 00:57:25,280 About suicide? 848 00:57:31,400 --> 00:57:32,640 Yes. 849 00:57:34,360 --> 00:57:36,520 Several times. 850 00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:43,120 And what, um... I know this is difficult. 851 00:57:45,320 --> 00:57:46,920 But what stopped you? 852 00:57:59,440 --> 00:58:00,480 Lily. 853 00:58:02,160 --> 00:58:03,960 Lily. 854 00:58:23,920 --> 00:58:26,480 CHILD'S LAUGHTER 855 00:58:41,760 --> 00:58:45,318 Think, Mrs Jones, somewhere he goes regularly to, you know, mull 856 00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:48,600 over stuff, of to get away from things? No. No, not without... 857 00:58:50,120 --> 00:58:53,520 Not... Philip? CAR PULLING UP 858 00:59:05,080 --> 00:59:07,360 You... You... SOBBING 859 00:59:15,080 --> 00:59:16,400 All right, all right. 860 00:59:18,880 --> 00:59:21,238 All right, I've got you. 861 00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:23,280 I've got you. 862 00:59:27,120 --> 00:59:29,158 How did it go? What did you tell them? 863 00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:32,280 Oh, just everything that we talked about. Good. And... 864 00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:39,398 And what, Philip? 865 00:59:39,400 --> 00:59:42,278 Well, and, um... 866 00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:45,440 About when I, um... 867 00:59:46,480 --> 00:59:51,238 Went... When I didn't, you know, um... When's it going out? 868 00:59:51,240 --> 00:59:55,078 Tomorrow. Well, I mean, I can... Nana! I'm sure they won't use it. 869 00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:58,838 Do you want me to call Neil? I can... I can... 870 00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:02,838 Tell him that... I'm going to have to warn Matthew. Why? 871 01:00:02,840 --> 01:00:04,638 Ruth... Why? 872 01:00:04,640 --> 01:00:07,358 Because now they'll know you've got a granddaughter. 873 01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:10,840 Those people. They'll know about Lily. 874 01:00:12,040 --> 01:00:15,638 You... You call Neil and we'll speak later. Well... 875 01:00:15,640 --> 01:00:16,800 But... 876 01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,798 You didn't ask them to remove the suicide stuff? It's the best bit. 877 01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:37,198 Takes the heat off Phil for a week or two. 878 01:00:37,200 --> 01:00:39,638 Puts a face to it. A life. 879 01:00:39,640 --> 01:00:42,958 Reminds people he's a person, a grandfather. 880 01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:44,960 That's what we need before the hearing. 881 01:01:14,040 --> 01:01:16,238 What about the hack? Who did this? How did they do it? 882 01:01:16,240 --> 01:01:19,198 Why did they do it? I mean, where are the interviews with the security 883 01:01:19,200 --> 01:01:20,918 correspondents, cyber experts? 884 01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,278 Not the story. Since when is the crime not the story? 885 01:01:23,280 --> 01:01:26,358 When what it achieved is more interesting. 886 01:01:26,360 --> 01:01:29,158 Have you seen these poll figures from the US, 887 01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:31,720 conducted in the months after the leak went viral? 888 01:01:33,240 --> 01:01:37,358 "59% of Americans say scientists have falsified research data to 889 01:01:37,360 --> 01:01:39,718 "support their beliefs about global warming. 890 01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,998 "Only 26% take the opposite view." 891 01:01:43,000 --> 01:01:45,880 It's worked, hasn't it? Yeah. 892 01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:52,038 What we need is a proper deflection, someone to point the finger at. 893 01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,880 A likely suspect for who did the hack, or who was behind it. 894 01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:01,558 The hacker gave the emails file names, linked to the date 895 01:02:01,560 --> 01:02:03,518 and time that the email was sent. 896 01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:06,838 They must have written a program to extract the date and time from 897 01:02:06,840 --> 01:02:11,478 the text and a tool to convert that to the number of seconds elapsed. 898 01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:13,598 If the times when the email was sent 899 01:02:13,600 --> 01:02:16,718 and the time zone on the computer the hacker was using to process 900 01:02:16,720 --> 01:02:20,558 the emails differed, then the file name generator will be incorrect. 901 01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:25,278 For example, an email sent from Greenwich Mean Time would 902 01:02:25,280 --> 01:02:27,438 give us an error of five hours. 903 01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:31,238 Now, this five hour mismatch could be later, 904 01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:35,838 placing the location in this time zone, Russia and Pakistan, 905 01:02:35,840 --> 01:02:40,000 or earlier, in this location, on the East Coast of America. 906 01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:45,758 Now, emails from this time zone give us an error or zero hours. 907 01:02:45,760 --> 01:02:49,038 Indicating that's where the emails were processed? 908 01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:50,638 East Coast of the US? 909 01:02:50,640 --> 01:02:53,638 Yes. Well, that's going to go down well, isn't it? 910 01:02:53,640 --> 01:02:57,438 Now, it is possible that the hacker reset his computer to avoid 911 01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:00,998 detection. What's GCHQ's input? 912 01:03:01,000 --> 01:03:03,558 They confirm the Department of Energy 913 01:03:03,560 --> 01:03:06,078 and Climate Change has been an intelligence collection 914 01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:09,638 target for China and Russia, but in terms of active state action 915 01:03:09,640 --> 01:03:11,958 and these kind of tactics, in this area... 916 01:03:11,960 --> 01:03:15,078 Why do the dirty work yourself, if you can pull the strings remotely? 917 01:03:15,080 --> 01:03:16,678 Smart. 918 01:03:16,680 --> 01:03:20,118 And if we follow the money, where does that take us? 919 01:03:20,120 --> 01:03:22,958 Well, Russia does have a huge oil industry. 920 01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,518 And with the melting of the ice caps, it is 921 01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,318 looking to exploit the Arctic, but... 922 01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:31,358 Yes, if you really want to follow the money, it takes us 923 01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:33,958 back here, to the US. 924 01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,958 Oil lobbies. Exxon, Koch Brothers. 925 01:03:36,960 --> 01:03:39,038 They're the ones with real skin in the game. 926 01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:41,638 Someone out there knows who did this. 927 01:03:41,640 --> 01:03:44,478 Who the gun for hire hacker was and who was paying them. 928 01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:46,598 How the hell are we meant to find them, 929 01:03:46,600 --> 01:03:48,720 if the internet makes a joke of the search? 930 01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:04,200 OK, let's try again. 931 01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:07,958 Like this... 932 01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:09,480 The facts are this. 933 01:04:11,600 --> 01:04:13,640 The facts are this. 934 01:04:17,040 --> 01:04:21,558 This is a House of Commons select committee. They'll be out for meat. 935 01:04:21,560 --> 01:04:23,320 You've got to get them on side. 936 01:04:26,120 --> 01:04:28,080 You do know what's at stake here? 937 01:04:33,280 --> 01:04:35,078 Oh... 938 01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:39,318 What I don't get is, this is all you've ever done. 939 01:04:39,320 --> 01:04:43,678 For the last 30 years, you've stuck it out, you've been loyal, whatever. 940 01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:46,318 This has been your life! 941 01:04:46,320 --> 01:04:49,518 I mean, don't you care?! 942 01:04:49,520 --> 01:04:50,840 Yes. 943 01:04:52,000 --> 01:04:55,600 What? Yes! I do care! 944 01:04:57,520 --> 01:04:59,240 Maybe... 945 01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:03,438 Phil. 946 01:05:03,440 --> 01:05:04,760 Phil? 947 01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:36,280 What do you want me not to say? 948 01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,040 I don't want you not to say anything. 949 01:05:45,520 --> 01:05:48,758 I just want you to tell the truth. 950 01:05:48,760 --> 01:05:52,078 But in a way that it can be understood. Short answers. 951 01:05:52,080 --> 01:05:53,480 No jargon. 952 01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:04,198 Why does this all matter? 953 01:06:04,200 --> 01:06:05,638 What? 954 01:06:05,640 --> 01:06:07,318 Well... 955 01:06:07,320 --> 01:06:10,840 Because what's... What they... 956 01:06:14,040 --> 01:06:15,958 Because it isn't true. 957 01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:17,960 Right. But beyond that? 958 01:06:19,440 --> 01:06:21,158 What happens if they win? 959 01:06:21,160 --> 01:06:24,880 What happens if everyone ignores your measurements, your graphs? 960 01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:29,638 Well... 961 01:06:29,640 --> 01:06:33,278 I suppose we'll just carry on emitting more greenhouse gases. 962 01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,318 Global temperatures will continue to increase. 963 01:06:36,320 --> 01:06:38,718 And if we do that, what actually happens? 964 01:06:38,720 --> 01:06:43,078 Well, the projection hasn't changed. It's still the same. 965 01:06:43,080 --> 01:06:44,598 The same as what? 966 01:06:44,600 --> 01:06:48,040 As when US scientists first studied it in the '70s. 967 01:06:49,040 --> 01:06:50,400 Go on. 968 01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:56,038 Well, a doubling of CO2 emissions in the atmosphere will 969 01:06:56,040 --> 01:07:00,478 result in a 1.5 to 4.5 degree increase. 970 01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:03,680 In what? Average surface temperature. 971 01:07:05,480 --> 01:07:11,038 Polar amplification will mean that melting in the poles will be greater. 972 01:07:11,040 --> 01:07:14,838 Maybe as much as ten degrees. 973 01:07:14,840 --> 01:07:17,238 What happens, Phil, 974 01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:19,118 for our children 975 01:07:19,120 --> 01:07:23,320 and their children? No numbers, just the consequences. 976 01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:33,200 Well... 977 01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:36,878 By 2100, 978 01:07:36,880 --> 01:07:41,798 dust bowl conditions across North America and Africa, 979 01:07:41,800 --> 01:07:43,600 Asia too. 980 01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:50,078 Sooner than that, a massive reduction in agricultural 981 01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:53,558 production, access to drinking water, 982 01:07:53,560 --> 01:07:55,960 migration in huge numbers. 983 01:07:58,040 --> 01:07:59,120 Um... 984 01:08:00,320 --> 01:08:05,680 Bushfires on a massive scale in Australia, the West Coast. 985 01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:13,438 Annual melting at the poles, the West Antarctic ice sheet, 986 01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:16,198 well, because of that, 987 01:08:16,200 --> 01:08:20,640 the global sea level rise of, well... 988 01:08:22,440 --> 01:08:23,678 ..metres. 989 01:08:23,680 --> 01:08:28,438 But what does that all mean for us? People. 990 01:08:28,440 --> 01:08:30,158 Make me see it, Phil. 991 01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:31,880 Well... 992 01:08:33,040 --> 01:08:34,640 In this worst case scenario... 993 01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:41,118 ..70% of the habitable world will no longer be able to sustain 994 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:42,600 human life. 995 01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:47,640 Millions of species will become extinct. 996 01:08:50,440 --> 01:08:52,920 And coastal and delta cities will be underwater. 997 01:08:54,640 --> 01:08:55,800 And, well... 998 01:08:57,680 --> 01:09:02,638 ..if the methane in the permafrost and on the seabed is released, 999 01:09:02,640 --> 01:09:03,840 well... 1000 01:09:04,920 --> 01:09:05,960 Yes? 1001 01:09:09,040 --> 01:09:10,920 The climate will collapse. 1002 01:09:13,840 --> 01:09:15,520 And the world as we know it... 1003 01:09:17,760 --> 01:09:19,200 ..will be gone. 1004 01:09:32,720 --> 01:09:35,758 Now, we know there are some people out there who think 1005 01:09:35,760 --> 01:09:38,878 everything you've just said is bollocks. 1006 01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:41,560 Maybe even some of the hearing committee, who knows? 1007 01:09:43,360 --> 01:09:45,758 But if you can remember everything you just said 1008 01:09:45,760 --> 01:09:49,160 when you're answering them, no matter how dry those answers are... 1009 01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:53,120 ..then we don't have to worry about it. 1010 01:10:01,360 --> 01:10:02,480 Let's take a break. 1011 01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:09,598 Anything? 1012 01:10:09,600 --> 01:10:13,638 It's the same names cropping up again and again. 1013 01:10:13,640 --> 01:10:16,918 With tobacco in the '70s, acid rain in the '80s, 1014 01:10:16,920 --> 01:10:18,678 and now with global warming. 1015 01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:21,760 It's not just the same strategy, it's the same bloody people. 1016 01:10:23,040 --> 01:10:26,520 But all this now with Phil, the emails, it's just... 1017 01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:30,560 The latest battle in the longer war. 1018 01:10:33,920 --> 01:10:35,480 It always is, son. 1019 01:10:37,240 --> 01:10:38,720 You'll come to see that. 1020 01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:42,760 It always is. 1021 01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:51,880 They're going to tear him apart. 1022 01:10:54,000 --> 01:10:55,760 We've still got a couple more days. 1023 01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:00,958 We'll have to rehearse the hell out of him. 1024 01:11:00,960 --> 01:11:03,598 Choreograph it step by step. 1025 01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:06,840 Royal Ballet will have nothing on us by the time we're done. 1026 01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:23,478 So why not release the data? Shouldn't everyone get to see it? 1027 01:11:23,480 --> 01:11:26,798 Don't focus on how you feel, focus on how you come across. 1028 01:11:26,800 --> 01:11:30,798 How is someone sitting there on the other side seeing you? 1029 01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:35,158 The select committee hearing is your only chance to defend yourself. 1030 01:11:35,160 --> 01:11:37,118 So, how is that right, 1031 01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,118 to stop other scientists publishing their findings? 1032 01:11:40,120 --> 01:11:43,280 Weren't you just using your position to quash other opinions? 1033 01:11:44,720 --> 01:11:49,638 Yes or no, did you ask your colleagues to delete emails? 1034 01:11:49,640 --> 01:11:51,798 There was no manipulation, yup... 1035 01:11:51,800 --> 01:11:55,238 So you've been manipulating the historic records, is that right? 1036 01:11:55,240 --> 01:12:01,278 So, there was no manipulation, just adjustment in the pursuit 1037 01:12:01,280 --> 01:12:05,278 of accuracy because that's how science works. 1038 01:12:05,280 --> 01:12:08,000 That's...how we get to the truth. 1039 01:12:10,320 --> 01:12:13,438 SLOW CLAPPING 1040 01:12:13,440 --> 01:12:16,120 APPLAUSE 1041 01:12:17,320 --> 01:12:19,920 Well done, Phil. Well done! 1042 01:12:30,720 --> 01:12:32,200 How are you feeling? 1043 01:12:44,080 --> 01:12:45,440 Just show them who you are. 1044 01:12:46,640 --> 01:12:48,320 What else can I do? No, I... 1045 01:12:52,960 --> 01:12:55,000 Do you remember when we first met? 1046 01:12:56,720 --> 01:12:59,638 In the halls of residence? 1047 01:12:59,640 --> 01:13:03,158 I was playing darts and your room was on the other side of the wall. 1048 01:13:03,160 --> 01:13:06,318 You came out to ask us to be quiet. It was... It was distracting. 1049 01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:07,800 I know! 1050 01:13:12,720 --> 01:13:16,758 The way you asked us, the way you carried yourself. 1051 01:13:16,760 --> 01:13:19,720 I could tell straight away, here was a good man. 1052 01:13:23,520 --> 01:13:24,840 A kind man. 1053 01:13:27,000 --> 01:13:28,400 A man of integrity. 1054 01:13:32,080 --> 01:13:35,360 All the pieces of that man are still here, Philip... 1055 01:13:39,320 --> 01:13:40,920 ..which means so is he. 1056 01:13:44,640 --> 01:13:46,680 That's who I want you to show them. 1057 01:14:22,240 --> 01:14:25,720 You'll be fine, Phil. Watch your shoe. 1058 01:14:28,960 --> 01:14:35,078 Here we are. OK, so, good luck gentlemen. You're not coming in? 1059 01:14:35,080 --> 01:14:38,438 Not going to help your cause if the press see me in there. 1060 01:14:38,440 --> 01:14:40,440 Keep to the brief. Good luck. 1061 01:14:42,920 --> 01:14:46,358 This is the only day of verbal evidence for the select committee 1062 01:14:46,360 --> 01:14:48,878 and they're keen to hear from their star witness, 1063 01:14:48,880 --> 01:14:52,518 the former head of the climate research unit at the University 1064 01:14:52,520 --> 01:14:56,678 of East Anglia, and the subject of many of those emails, Phil Jones. 1065 01:14:56,680 --> 01:15:00,278 This is the first time he's come under close public scrutiny. 1066 01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:05,358 So, shall we begin, Professor Jones, Professor Acton? 1067 01:15:05,360 --> 01:15:10,198 Thank you. I do have a general statement I'd like to make. No. 1068 01:15:10,200 --> 01:15:12,198 No general statements, please. 1069 01:15:12,200 --> 01:15:15,360 Oh, Jesus! Just answer the questions when you're asked them. 1070 01:15:16,680 --> 01:15:22,198 Perhaps I could just go back to one of Lord Lawson's earlier comments. 1071 01:15:22,200 --> 01:15:23,598 What did I miss? 1072 01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:27,918 That without an understanding of the methodology, that the 1073 01:15:27,920 --> 01:15:32,480 peer review system is rather defunct? 1074 01:15:34,400 --> 01:15:36,358 Well, the, um... 1075 01:15:36,360 --> 01:15:39,838 The methods are published in the 1076 01:15:39,840 --> 01:15:43,038 scientific papers, um, that... 1077 01:15:43,040 --> 01:15:46,198 That... That... Relatively simple. 1078 01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:50,038 There's nothing sort of rocket science about them. They're... 1079 01:15:50,040 --> 01:15:54,798 Can you explain your email exchange on the 21st of January 2005, 1080 01:15:54,800 --> 01:15:58,158 when you say you aren't going to... How are they doing? 1081 01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:01,958 Not bad. ..Find something wrong with it? 1082 01:16:01,960 --> 01:16:06,238 That's the nature of scientific pursuits, isn't it? 1083 01:16:06,240 --> 01:16:10,360 Well, I've obviously written some very awful emails. CHUCKLING 1084 01:16:16,760 --> 01:16:18,800 Let's get you home. 1085 01:17:59,040 --> 01:18:00,680 You found him. 1086 01:18:29,000 --> 01:18:31,318 ..To look at the key works of CRU, 1087 01:18:31,320 --> 01:18:35,478 to reaffirm the sure-fire quality of the science 1088 01:18:35,480 --> 01:18:39,198 and my I end by saying just how proud 1089 01:18:39,200 --> 01:18:44,358 I am of the contribution that UEA and CRU in particular has 1090 01:18:44,360 --> 01:18:50,600 made to humanity's ability to understand climate change. 1091 01:18:53,920 --> 01:18:55,080 So, what happens now? 1092 01:18:56,880 --> 01:18:58,240 We wait. 1093 01:19:11,440 --> 01:19:13,080 We wait. 1094 01:19:39,160 --> 01:19:43,398 Ah, Trevor. Do you know what time the select committee will publish their report? 1095 01:19:43,400 --> 01:19:47,200 Some time in the morning, so they said. Right. 1096 01:19:49,880 --> 01:19:52,960 Are you familiar with the Fermi paradox... 1097 01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:57,958 ..the contradiction of lack of evidence for alien life, 1098 01:19:57,960 --> 01:20:03,078 and considering the size and age of the universe, 1099 01:20:03,080 --> 01:20:06,398 the high possibility of its existence? Yes, yes. 1100 01:20:06,400 --> 01:20:08,280 The great science. Yeah. 1101 01:20:11,080 --> 01:20:15,758 I read a paper yesterday that suggested climate change 1102 01:20:15,760 --> 01:20:17,520 might be the answer. 1103 01:20:19,440 --> 01:20:23,760 There have perhaps been other civilisations, thousands... 1104 01:20:25,080 --> 01:20:27,758 ..but they all did what we're doing now, 1105 01:20:27,760 --> 01:20:32,078 became more and more advanced and in doing so... Yes, I see. 1106 01:20:32,080 --> 01:20:34,560 ..burnt themselves out. Bright and brief. 1107 01:20:37,920 --> 01:20:40,918 It does make you wonder, doesn't it, 1108 01:20:40,920 --> 01:20:46,280 if all this we're fighting against is, well... 1109 01:20:48,600 --> 01:20:51,038 ..possibly what we're meant to do? 1110 01:20:51,040 --> 01:20:53,478 I'll admit humanity does have something of a gift 1111 01:20:53,480 --> 01:20:56,638 for normalising great change, 1112 01:20:56,640 --> 01:20:59,118 even when it threatens us. 1113 01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:02,478 But we do also have a gift for survival 1114 01:21:02,480 --> 01:21:06,600 against predators, disease, dictators. 1115 01:21:08,120 --> 01:21:10,280 We do somehow survive. 1116 01:21:13,600 --> 01:21:17,358 Even if how we live is the danger? 1117 01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:19,760 You have to hope so, don't you? 1118 01:21:23,920 --> 01:21:25,400 Goodnight, Trevor. 1119 01:21:56,200 --> 01:21:59,720 "The focus on Professor Phil Jones and CRU has been... 1120 01:22:02,160 --> 01:22:03,480 "Has been misplaced. 1121 01:22:06,320 --> 01:22:09,398 "Within the inquiry, and the evidence we took, 1122 01:22:09,400 --> 01:22:12,238 "the scientific reputation of Professor Jones 1123 01:22:12,240 --> 01:22:14,518 "and CRU remains intact. 1124 01:22:14,520 --> 01:22:18,240 "We have found no reason in this unfortunate episode... 1125 01:22:20,160 --> 01:22:23,318 "..to challenge the scientific consensus that global warming 1126 01:22:23,320 --> 01:22:26,238 "is happening and is induced by human activity. 1127 01:22:26,240 --> 01:22:29,918 "In so far as we've been able to consider accusations of dishonesty, 1128 01:22:29,920 --> 01:22:32,958 "for example, Professor Jones' alleged attempt to hide 1129 01:22:32,960 --> 01:22:34,960 "the decline, we consider there is... 1130 01:22:39,800 --> 01:22:41,280 "There is no case to answer." 1131 01:23:04,880 --> 01:23:10,238 ..The work done by CRU and have no doubt that for all of us, 1132 01:23:10,240 --> 01:23:16,118 our children and our grandchildren, Phil Jones was 1133 01:23:16,120 --> 01:23:20,878 and is the right man in the right place 1134 01:23:20,880 --> 01:23:22,360 at the right time. 1135 01:23:23,840 --> 01:23:25,798 Phil Jones. 1136 01:23:25,800 --> 01:23:27,600 Phil Jones. Phil Jones. 1137 01:23:30,680 --> 01:23:34,558 All the other reports reached the same conclusion. 1138 01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:37,880 There were seven, in total, by the end. 1139 01:23:40,640 --> 01:23:43,438 Even one that no-one knew about, the... 1140 01:23:43,440 --> 01:23:46,240 The United States Environmental Protection Agency? 1141 01:23:48,520 --> 01:23:50,320 "A manufactured controversy". 1142 01:23:51,880 --> 01:23:53,560 That's what they called it. 1143 01:23:58,360 --> 01:24:02,198 For us though, it didn't feel like we could even begin to move on 1144 01:24:02,200 --> 01:24:07,598 until two years later when this big project in California happened. 1145 01:24:07,600 --> 01:24:12,680 Berkeley Earth, it was called, set up to prove Philip's work was wrong. 1146 01:24:14,200 --> 01:24:15,240 Anyway... 1147 01:24:16,360 --> 01:24:20,398 ..they took all the data CRU had used 1148 01:24:20,400 --> 01:24:22,960 and started from scratch. 1149 01:24:25,440 --> 01:24:30,318 With some known sceptics on the team too, even Steve Mosher, 1150 01:24:30,320 --> 01:24:33,040 the man who first picked out those extracts. 1151 01:24:34,600 --> 01:24:37,118 The Trick, Hide the Decline. 1152 01:24:37,120 --> 01:24:38,840 Even him. 1153 01:24:40,440 --> 01:24:42,480 And what do you know? 1154 01:24:44,960 --> 01:24:46,960 Came up with the same results as Philip. 1155 01:24:50,320 --> 01:24:51,720 The same results. 1156 01:25:54,400 --> 01:25:56,318 Phil. 1157 01:25:56,320 --> 01:25:58,438 It's... Sam. 1158 01:25:58,440 --> 01:26:00,120 I remember. 1159 01:26:03,320 --> 01:26:04,640 How are you? 1160 01:26:06,440 --> 01:26:07,918 I'm very good. 1161 01:26:07,920 --> 01:26:10,278 Yes, good, good. Yeah. 1162 01:26:10,280 --> 01:26:12,160 Oh, this is me. 1163 01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:17,118 Good to see you. And you, Sam. 1164 01:26:17,120 --> 01:26:18,438 Yeah. 1165 01:26:18,440 --> 01:26:19,958 Yeah, take care. 1166 01:26:19,960 --> 01:26:21,440 Yeah, and you. 1167 01:26:57,000 --> 01:27:00,678 Everything that happened back then, the hacking, 1168 01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:02,518 other campaigns, 1169 01:27:02,520 --> 01:27:06,358 it had a significant effect on public opinion. 1170 01:27:06,360 --> 01:27:10,438 Cost us between eight to ten years, according to some studies. 1171 01:27:10,440 --> 01:27:15,518 A decade, so, yes, we could have had 20 years to sort this out, 1172 01:27:15,520 --> 01:27:18,758 but now, we've only got around ten. 1173 01:27:18,760 --> 01:27:20,120 If that. 1174 01:27:21,920 --> 01:27:24,958 And who's pushing hardest for action? 1175 01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:30,440 The children, people Lily's age, which does give me some hope. 1176 01:27:32,880 --> 01:27:37,398 They understand, you see, what needs to be done. 1177 01:27:37,400 --> 01:27:38,998 And who knows? 1178 01:27:39,000 --> 01:27:42,078 If it only took one generation to break the planet, 1179 01:27:42,080 --> 01:27:44,520 why can't it take just one to fix it? 1180 01:27:47,360 --> 01:27:52,120 I know we should have more time, but at least we do still have time. 1181 01:27:54,720 --> 01:27:56,160 Just. 155573

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