Original subtitles

Charismatic. Opinionated. I have to point out he was short. But he was a

of a man. Really a good storyteller. He was completely felt.

Animated. Kind.

Jubilant. Caring.

Devilish. Played back. Very approachable. Can I say things that are

completely flattering and wonderful? He had the capacity to have the worst

possible gas.

He'd be proud of that, yep. He was a saint. He was a hell of a guy. He was

so intelligent.

And, um...

Do you know who that is?

Andrew.

You know who Andrew is?

I don't know.

Why did Andrew get killed?

Because somebody hurt him, buddy. I'm an only child, and I'll get around to why

this is of any importance whatsoever, but... Trust me, there's a theme.

Where were you when you found out?

Melanie, who's on the front desk, calls back and says kate there's a policeman

from sunnyvale on the line for you do you want to talk to him and i said oh

put it through to the office are you kathleen bagby i said yes i've got a

message here from pennsylvania you're to call this number it's the coroner's

office you've got bad news i said is my son dead

And he said, I can't tell you that, madam. He said, but you've got terrible

news. I dialed this number that he'd given me, and it was a man, an irate

The coroner's office was closed down. Nothing he could do about it. He'd have

call back tomorrow morning. I called back to the Sunnyvale police station. So

gave me another number, and then I got through to Sergeant Krulak. And he said,

your son is dead under suspicious circumstances. Have you got any idea why

was in the park?

Why is my son dead?

Murdered? He said yes.

And then I called David.

And I said to him, Andrew's dead.

And he said no.

And I heard him throw the phone.

I called Sergeant Krulak back and I said, you know, we're coming. And he

well, that's good. Through that flight, we just, we thought we'd go get Andrew

and bring him back to California and get everything organized, whatever, and

then kill ourselves because no point going on.

That was the first plan.

Obviously, we didn't do that. And then she gave me the list to call, and we

started calling. I came home, and there was a message. I was in the living room.

How many people got a kick in the head from this? Everybody always says, well,

what would be the difference if one person weren't alive?

I came home on November 7, 2001, to find a message from my sister.

Hi, it's Heather. It's about 9 .15. At 3 .41 p .m., I called her back.

She told me to sit down.

In the original news, they said an unidentified man in his 30s was found.

in hospital scrubs none of those words described who he was and and they could

put them on paper and make them true nobody said this person this wonderful

person was hurt we met in first grade at st andrews school in saratoga

california and i soon came to think of him as my closest friend it was here in

the san jose bay area scattered across the suburbs that make up silicon valley

that we all grew up There was Britt. Do I remember how I met Andrew? It was

second grade.

And Matt. I can say without shame that we bathed together.

Michelle. He was the first friend I made my first day of school. John. We met

the first day of class because of our names, Atkinson and Bagby. Olivia, we

talked for about 20, 30 minutes, and I realized, wow, this guy's pretty cool.

Heather. Oh, I'm sure you got to hear things I didn't hear. Between the two of

us, we might actually be able to put together a half -decent story. And there

was me.

My name's Kurt, and I'm a filmmaker.

I'm Kurt Kenney, and I play Indiana Jones.

He appeared in every movie I made growing up. We made a movie!

He loved playing bad guys. Shut up! Jeff, let's go, Kenney. Ace, huh?

You must be a smart boy.

And having a free pass to smoke and swear in front of his parents. I will

you in my ass! In my ass, you son of a bitch! You son of a bitch!

Christ! Get out of here! Fuck you! Fuck all you fucking people! I did not say.

That F one, I'm sorry. Which was probably kind of a cool release for a

made Eagle Scout by age 15.

Mrs. Bagby, have you watched it where Andrew is running around yelling and

screaming? I can't really remember being... Oh, that's not my son.

Perhaps you have a different idea that I got all upset about it. I don't know.

Not my son.

And eventually I even got them in on the act.

Son of a bitch, you little shit.

You are a pain in the ass. You little bastard.

Does that give you the right to go yelling about your penis on the air? It

wasn't always fun and games. Son of a bitch. Oh, Jesus.

And I know I drove him nuts sometimes.

But

despite

it all, he always supported me.

He even invested in my first feature film while he was working to save for

medical school. Everything was perfect.

I don't know what happened.

We got bigger and we got laid.

At his memorial service, I talked with his med school friend, Anthony, who told

me... One of the major things that Andrew and I did together, though, or

had in common was photography.

I had no idea he took pictures. I'd known him for 22 years.

What else didn't I know?

I was never going to get to visit him at his hospital and see what he was like

as a doctor.

I would never be going to his wedding where I would finally meet his entire

family at the reception.

He would never be telling me anything I didn't already know about him.

So I decided to make this movie, to travel far and wide, to interview

who ever knew and loved him, to learn everything there was to know, and to

one last movie with him.

I had no idea how many years it would take or how I would even know when I was

done.

But the longer I waited, the more memories would be lost.

So I started at home in California, and as soon as I could, I grabbed a camera.

Okay, Andrew, ready? And said, action. I had a couple gallons of water. I took a

gallon of water, I poured it on there, put out the fire.

How would I describe Andrew to someone who'd never met him? The man never wore

pants. He only wears shorts.

Constantly. I see smoke.

Starts to billow out around the right -hand side of the cabin there.

Well, Andrew was very good at pool.

Well, quite frankly, he was a pool shark is what he was.

But he had a good teacher.

All around this side, this little bit of tree is right here.

All up in flames.

When we first met him, he had this thing with his fingernails.

He'd bite them. They looked like they'd been through a shredder.

And the first place I come to calls up the fire department. Ring, ring, ring.

I got an answering machine.

At the fire department? At the fire department.

He's probably the most determined person I've ever met about doing a particular

profession. His mom worked in the business. We would sit and discuss the

like venereal disease.

Mom was a nurse practitioner. I'm her friend.

OBGYN nurse practitioner.

This water bomber just crashed over the hill over here and just... He dumped

water all over this thing. You know, he didn't get an offer to come to medical

school at the end of the first year. And I remember, you know, that was a big

downer. I think he felt like he wasn't, like things were kind of stalled for him

and he wasn't really, he wasn't living up to expectations.

This guy gave me a call from the Department of Forestry and he said,

gone to bat for you and it's going to be $300.

Well, what are you going to do?

Okay, I'll get a job and I'll apply again.

Okay. That's problem, solution.

Then about three weeks after that, I get a call from some lady again from the

Department of Forestry saying, why did you send us a $300 check? And then, of

course, Heather brought home this application she had picked up from

University of Newfoundland.

I had to go look at St. John's on the map when you got accepted there. I mean,

knew. That's over in the East Coast. From the land of California, Andrew

came. He came to Newfoundland and set the wilderness aflame.

He says it's a $75 fine for having a campfire out of season, and it's $75 for

turning your back on it.

It's $150.

He said, all right, share up the check. I'll send you $150.

So if you want to burn down Bay Roberts, it's $150.

He's now engaged to this lovely girl.

Going to go to med school.

It was great.

Graduation, he was in shorts. Hold on a second. We'll come back to this. But

before we go any further, you've got to know what happened.

The whole truth.

So here it is.

A couple of policemen met us at the airport in Pittsburgh.

Took us over to the hospital.

Bill and Clark picked us up and took us over to Botch's.

funeral home in greensburg and then he took us down a stairway gurney at the

other end with a white sheet over a body and

went over to him and when we could see his face

i said it's really him

i kissed him and held him and

Kate kissed him and held him and kissed him some more.

Tears were dropping on him, of course, and Kate went to wipe one of those away

off his cheek.

And a plug came out where he'd been shot in the left cheek.

She pushed it back in and cried some more. After that, I lost it. I just ran

outside and screamed. I was so fucking mad I couldn't see straight. God damn

I hate it. I've never hated like that.

Did you know who I hated? Didn't know who it was. Just knew that somebody

purposely put him in. Whoever that is, is a monster.

A very bad person.

Which bad person?

A lady?

I couldn't figure out who she was in relation to Andrew, since Andrew talked

lot about women, but never really mentioned her.

It makes me sick to my stomach now, but I was so excited.

that he was dating somebody.

Come on, Shirley, get out from behind him. I knew he'd been struggling with me

moving on and dating other people.

Or maybe you will.

You already met me. I was excited at the thought that maybe he had found

somebody that he, you know, could really be happy with.

But it turned out that way. We went to the same medical school.

You went to the same medical school?

Yeah, Newfoundland.

Oh, is that right? Canada?

Yeah. Can't you recognize my accent?

No.

Yeah. Do you remember when they started dating?

She just kind of appeared, and then she was there all the time, all of a sudden.

And just didn't seem suited for him. Did you describe yourself as boyfriend and

girlfriend? Well, no, not really.

They did say there was considerable age difference.

And then the second time I heard him talk about it, he actually bet to the

difference. I was like, holy shit.

I'm 40 and he's 28.

Shirley's got three kids.

All my kids have a different kind of name from me, Toasty Boar. Oh, okay. Me,

always had to give them a hard time, so I'd tease them about nailing Grandma.

And she seems so...

incongruous with who I would picture him with. A person like that isn't just

like completely normal and then one day they become psycho, you know? I mean,

there had to be some signs.

She'd just be really inappropriate with things, poor taste things that she would

say. She was always making kind of sexually inappropriate comments. But

threatening. We never thought of her as being threatening, but just something

was a little off. Something wasn't right. She started calling me on a

basis. She talked forever.

Crude things about their...

intimate relationship.

But I thought it was kind of odd when I met her that she was not practicing. She

had finished residency for quite some time and yet she was having trouble

getting her credentials.

Nobody said anything because we all respect the danger.

And if he wasn't putting the pieces together or something it just makes me

he was just not.

He was likely 4 ,000 miles away from where he wanted to be for the rest of

life. He had had a very difficult, kind of heartbreaking type of situation with

Heather. You know, whatever happened with their breakup really kind of

devastated him and just left him vulnerable to someone like Shirley.

know you can do a lot better.

I can't. He'd poke fun at himself all the time.

He'd say he's a short, portly little fella.

I'm dressed like I am now, not looking all that pretty.

No comment, please. You don't need to go out with a woman because you can't

think you can do better. It was a comfort, and in Newfoundland, it was

to be around, and he enjoyed it. We didn't really have a commitment or, you

know, a big future plan or anything like that. We do date other people. Oh, it's

just a...

Senior year thing. After graduation, he came back to the U .S. to do a surgery

residency in Syracuse, New York, and he was miserable.

He hated it. Shirley also decided to move to the States to practice.

You're in Omaha, right?

Actually, no. I'm in Council Bluffs, which is in Iowa.

We were not very aware of his year in Syracuse. What a problem she became from

there. And we just had this, you know, long distance.

you know, get together when you can.

It was a real hard year for him. There was really no time for anything.

And the fact that there was somebody that was...

Making a lot of effort to maintain a relationship with the man represented

something else besides the misery that it sounded like his internship was.

It was hard for him to patch up. He pretty quickly realized that surgery

for him and switched to a family practice residency in Latrobe,

July of 2001.

And he loved it. He said, we finally find that thing that you know is your

niche. It's worth it.

It's worth everything in the world. And he now wanted her to go away.

He did not invite her to Matt's wedding. Yeah, and she thought she was going to

be coming. She just already had it arranged. The morning of the wedding,

Andrew's cell phone started ringing.

And he'd answer it, and it's Shirley. A minute or two later, it'd ring again,

and it's her again. Andrew got more and more upset with her. What is your

fucking problem?

And clipped off the phone, and she left 30 -some -odd messages on his phone. We

are very close.

I understand.

His phone.

And his house rang like 30 times, and his cell phone rang 30 times. He was

oh, it's her. I don't want to talk with her. We love you, Kevin.

Okay. Apparently, Andrew had already asked Shirley to accompany him to Carla

Marcy's wedding October 20th, before July.

He had broken up with her a month before in his mind.

It sounds so easy, but it's hard when you're a genuine person who cares. He

didn't know how to be a son of a bitch because he wasn't a son of a bitch.

Shirley had been really like... all over Andrew, just acting possessive of him.

I say, Andrew, hey, do you want something to drink? And she said, there

hitting on the best man.

So my jaw dropped. It had to. I remember going.

On the afternoon of Saturday, November 3, 2001, he broke up with Shirley once

and for all over lunch at the airport in Latrobe, Pennsylvania.

Then he put her on a plane back to her place in Council Bluffs, Iowa, 1 ,000

miles away.

I remember the morning that Shirley showed up.

He said, you'll never guess who showed up on my doorstep at 5 .30.

And I said, who? He said, the psychotic bitch.

And I told him, I said, you know, Andrew, when I break up with somebody

them on a plane and send them 1 ,300 miles away, I said, they knock on my

door, I'm going out the back door, and I'm calling the police.

He said, what do you mean?

I said, Andrew.

I said, be serious.

Nobody drives 16 hours after you've just broken up with them. I said, do not

meet her in private.

He said, what can happen? And he said, I'm going to need to catch up with you,

and we're going to have to do some serious talking.

I said, bring some beer. I only live a block away. I said, when do you think

you'll be done? He said, well, it's 4 .30 now.

Meeting her at 6 .00.

7 .30, I'll be at your house.

Things people should know about Andrew.

He was never late.

And you know what? When Andrew didn't show up at 7 .30, I knew something was

very wrong.

And when I went back down at 9 o 'clock and didn't see his car there, I knew

something was wrong.

Let me tell you the events of the day. Andrew didn't show up for morning

Morning report ended around 8 o 'clock. I went down to my office. I called

Andrew's house. You've reached Andrew Bagby. Please leave a message at the

Thank you.

Hey, Bags, it's Clark.

Just called to say hello and see where you're at. I'm going to stop by your

house here in about five minutes.

Call the cell phone everywhere you're at.

No answer to either one. As I recall, we're getting pretty close to 9 o 'clock

in the morning, and Rhonda and I and some of the residents are starting to

little nervous.

I remember Bill coming in and standing in front of the television and telling

us. One of the ER docs turned to me and said, you know, they found a body and

scrubbed it at Keystone Park.

Dead silence fell over, a heaviness like I've never felt.

And eventually almost everyone is congregated there just waiting for more

Rhonda got the call, and she said to me, they need you in Mr. Clark's office

right now. And I remember my heart pounding. Going up damn near a sprint, I

opened the door, and I remember seeing three Pennsylvania State police troopers

in uniforms sitting in the room. And I said, you're here to tell me about

Bagby, aren't you? They asked for us all to gather in the conference room, and

they closed the door. He cleared his throat. And he just walked right up to

podium, and he said, Andrew Bagby is dead.

And I said, well, you don't have to look for her.

They're like, what do you mean? Is this involving Andrew at all?

Yeah, I'm afraid it is. I said, this woman was in town.

She was here. I have to tell you that Andrew is dead.

Are you sure?

Yes, ma 'am, I am. I'm absolutely sure.

I said, find her, and I think you'll find who did this.

His parents don't even know, do they?

Oh, my God, you can't tell them.

Make sure that she's with his dad.

A summary of the evidence against Shirley Turner.

He was found on the morning of Tuesday, November 6th, laying behind his car in a

parking lot at Keystone State Park in Derry Township, Pennsylvania.

A man walking through Keystone Park at 6 .10 p .m. the previous evening,

November 5th, had seen his black Toyota Corolla parked next to an SUV.

This was 10 minutes after he told Clark he was going to meet Shirley.

Shirley drove a Toyota RAV4 SUV.

He was shot five times.

In the face, the chest, twice in the buttocks, and in the back of the head.

also received a blunt trauma to the back of the head. That didn't sound random.

That sounded like rage and vengeance.

The ammunition used was CCI .22 caliber bullets.

There were six spent casings and one live round on the ground beside him.

Shirley owned a Phoenix Arms .22 caliber handgun. I'm not going to kid you,

Doctor.

I know.

I'm interested in the gun. And you just bought the gun, right? Not too long ago?

Yeah. Well, I have it for protection. Yeah, I can understand that. And I

to know for safety.

And I thought the instruction was a good thing. I agree.

She had three lessons with a firearms instructor who said that at her last

lesson, she was using CCI -22 caliber ammunition.

And her gun malfunctioned and would sometimes eject live rounds onto the

Would you be willing to turn the gun into your local police department so

could get it to us and let us look at it?

Yes. Then she said, no, I can't find it. It's either in my closet or my bedroom,

or it's in the car.

Then she said, I gave the gun to Andrew.

She claims she was home sick all day on Monday, November 5th. I mean, even

though I was home sick at 7. When did you arrive home?

I think it was Sunday, and I'm not going to lie to you. The cell phone records

show that.

A phone call was made here, here, here, and here. While she claims to be home in

bed, he's making cell phone calls from Chicago, Illinois at 7 .08 and 7 .10 p

.m. on Sunday, November 4th. Then another from South Bend, Indiana at 10

.m. that night. Then another from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania at 8 .07 a .m.

next morning, November 5th, the day he was killed.

She logged on to eBay that morning from his computer at his house.

And back again.

At 11 .26 p .m. that night, she makes another call from Cleveland, Ohio,

on her way home this time. Then another call from Stewart, Iowa at 9 .48 a .m.

the next morning.

Then she

said,

I gave the gun to Andrew in the parking lot, and I saw him put it in his trunk.

As I can remember, even now, I guess I'm racking my brain for two weeks. Why was

I here and there? Because I didn't expect I had to come up with all of

That clearly shows if she did this, she planned it. She is a manipulative,

deceitful planner of a murder. And I'm not going to lie to you. In order to

prove her whereabouts when she made these phone calls, each individual cell

tower along her 16 -hour drive had to be manually checked, which was a process

that took almost two weeks.

While the police were uncovering this crucial piece of evidence, Shirley left

the United States for her home in St. John's, Newfoundland.

We were absolutely helpless for the whole time we were in La Trobe after

initial nightmare.

The other residents and Andrew's friends now came in, sat with

us, brought us meals.

They had a sign -up sheet at the hospital to bring us a dinner and sit

with us.

Listen to us and cry some more. Great people. I mean, the whole hospital

grieved. It was profound.

Just picture the masses that just came out for that. From memorials in

Newfoundland to California to England.

To St. Louis.

To La Trobe.

You know, I'd be happy if I had one -tenth of people who cares one -half

me as much as I get angry.

Well, I know at the point that we had the memorial service, she was back in

Canada, actually. She was there at the memorial service that we had. She broke

down crying during the service and sobbing really loud.

You know, I wondered if it was all just for a show. And then fear at that point

for, you know, Heather's safety because... She came up and sort of

my friends out beside me and said...

and awful things, and obviously I cared a lot more about him than he ever cared

about me, and I definitely wasn't important in his life. An email from

a horrible skating email.

It was all basically I was nothing and she was everything.

How wonderful their love was and how that'll never die now.

To try to lure her back to the United States, Shirley was invited to the

memorial service in California, but she didn't take the bait.

So finally, she was card.

He was arrested in St. John's, Newfoundland on December 12, 2001, and

on bail the very same day.

Lenny's flight risk, it seemed to me common sense that if she isn't in the

jurisdiction where they want her, she's fled.

Crown Prosecutor Mike Madden did not even argue against her release on bail

instead entered the courtroom with an agreement already in place for her

release. Pending the next hearing in the extradition process to the United

States, all justice David Russell required Shirley to do was...

Post $75 ,000 in securities.

$65 ,000 of this was posted by her personal psychiatrist, but I'll come

him. Turn in her passport, sign in once a week at the local police station,

promise not to leave Newfoundland, and avoid contact with these people.

And with that, the government of Canada let a probable premeditated first

-degree murderer walk the street.

I thought it was crazy.

It should never be. It should never have been. I thought it was insane.

Who the hell is the system protecting?

I could not believe this was happening.

But the most unbelievable part was when we found out about you.

Hi, this is Matt Odinger.

I just got a call from Mrs. Bagby.

The abbreviated version is, what's your bucket, that bitch?

Held a press conference and announced that she's four months pregnant with

Andrew's baby.

They can't prove it until the child's born.

If it is true that Bagby's are going to sue for custody... My movie now took on

a whole new meaning.

It was no longer just my search for what was left of your dad. It might be the

only way you could one day go back in time, see, and get to know him. This is

time machine.

Yes, a time machine. And I vowed to collect every memory for you before they

were gone.

So finally, I set off. First, I would go to England to interview your grandma's

side of the family for you. Then I'd return to the U .S. to do an epic road

across North America.

I'd start on the west coast of California in Motor East, stopping to

all of your dad's friends and family along the way. And I would keep driving

until the land ran out in St. John's, Newfoundland, the easternmost point in

of North America, where the last living piece of Andrew, you, would be waiting

for me. I grabbed a digital video camera, a 16mm wind -up movie camera,

old Nikon. I have a good idea.

I'll go back in time and stop you from dying.

And set off on a quest to bring your dad back to life.

And while I raced to rescue your history, your grandma and grandpa quit

jobs, dug into their savings, and gave up everything to move to Newfoundland to

fight for your future.

I met Kate and David in the spring of 2002.

I'll never forget it. They needed a lawyer to assist them in making sure

their rights and the baby's rights were protected, I guess.

I instantly...

I thought that it was so important that they have a relationship with that

child. Our lawyer, Jackie, went to see Betty Day, an administrator somewhere in

the hierarchy of Child Protective Services, and told her that we, the

are concerned about the safety of the baby because the mother is accused of a

premeditated murder.

To me, I thought they were very emotionally intelligent in how they

bearing up under all of this incredible stress.

You know, that was a Sunday afternoon. The next morning they had to sit in the

courtroom and look at her.

When your grandma and grandpa first arrived in Canada, they were told the

slow. And they weren't kidding. February 15th, Prosecutor Mike Madden

acknowledged that the extradition request had been received.

They adjourned until March 11th, when they decided they'd reconvene to select

date for the extradition hearing on March 25th, where they decided to set

date for the extradition hearing for May 27th, where they got caught up debating

the French versus English translations of Section 32 of the Extradition Act and

decided to adjourn for a specific translation until June 11th, a hearing

lasted five minutes, at which Judge Derek Green said he wasn't in a position

rule on the translation, and they would adjourn again until July 30th.

And while they waited for justice and for you to arrive, your grandma and

grandpa made a new home and new friends. They made friends all over St.

John's, people in the legal community, the medical community.

But here at St. Michael's, yeah, they got right in there and got right

It seems like they've always been here.

Basically, they have more friends in Newfoundland now than we do. Well, it's

very small province. You know, the landmass is as big as, well, maybe not

as big as California, but not far off.

And yet we only have 530 ,000 populations gathered over that land map.

go anywhere in St. John's without running into somebody you know. I mean,

the oldest city in North America. It's a very safe place, I think.

The big drawback against living here is getting out of here. The weather here is

terrible. The weather is awful. We have eight months of winter and four months

of bad weather. And the other very consistent thing that I hear is that the

people are so friendly. How would you describe that to someone you don't

remember anymore?

Do you have an hour? I was hoping you would ask me about Kate and David, who

very... Young at heart.

Childish. That's not the right word. He's an engineer in the truest sense of

word. The guy likes pintos, okay?

Logical. Does things in steps.

Logical steps.

Comparing Andrew as a teenager and David as a teenager, they're almost twins.

He's an older model.

Wonderful.

He always calls you mate.

His father does. Mate. How you doing, mate?

And Kate calls you love.

Oh, I thought she was feisty. Like a little ball of fire.

She's so tiny and then big things come out of her. It's great that she's on

side because she'll always stand up for what she believes in and those that she

loves. They're a rare pair.

They were from the start.

In itself, it's quite a story, their marriage, you know.

I was going to come here for the two years, and I was going on to Australia

two years, work my way around the world, and then I was going back to Devon. And

I wasn't going to get married because that was not on my list of things to do

all. I was in the Navy, stationed on an aircraft carrier, the Hornet, in Long

Beach, California.

The guy came into the shop one day, the E2 electronic shop, and said he had two

English nurses who wanted to go to Disneyland. We were too cheap to pay the

fare, yeah? Yeah, two cheap English nurses. And I took the little one and

him with the tall one.

They didn't work out so well, but we did. We went out 13 times in the first

weeks. And he could quote Shakespeare, by the way, so I knew it was all right.

Five months later, I'm married.

So we moved down to San Diego and started working on a baby, but nothing

happened.

You know, we tried to get pregnant for a year, two years. There was no result.

At some point, they mentioned that they might adopt.

And then, I mean, it was, you know, it was like a miracle.

Coming to St. Louis and sleeping in.

My mother's bedroom seemed to make people pregnant.

And then, of course, Andrew didn't come.

He was two weeks late.

Things people should know about Andrew, he was never late.

It's 9 o 'clock Thursday.

Shirley went into labor around 3 o 'clock in the afternoon on Newfoundland

On July 18, 2002, you were born.

Shirley named you Zachary Andrew Turner.

Your grandma and grandpa came to the hospital to see you, but Shirley

let them in the door.

They stood five feet away from you on the other side of a wall.

They left a gift for you.

Is there anything you'd like to say to Zachary?

Well, your dad was an amazing person.

You're going to get such a broad range of different perspectives of this guy.

You're going to know what his character was like, and you're going to know what

fun he was to be with.

and you're going to know that you can be proud of him. I flew to England to

collect the memories of your grandma's side of the family for you, and arrived

just in time for a very special occasion.

Well, we're on the eve of my wedding, for a start.

Well, it's been a bit hectic. We're just trying to fit this interview in between

all of the preparations.

Your dad crossed the Atlantic to come here almost every summer, but instead of

heading to the tourist attractions in London like everyone else, he'd head to

the outskirts to spend time with his grandparents, aunts, uncles, and

He was a king for my life.

and in particular with his cousin John.

The main thing, I guess, about being an only child is that I get to choose my

brothers. Others of you don't.

Sorry. John, my brother, and Andrew, born within months of each other. In

I think it was about 30 seconds of, like, the normal child, who are you, who

you, and then suddenly, snap, that was it. We often said that at least they

would have each other through life.

John would always have Andrew, and Andrew would always have John.

Me kind of blur into this kind of haze of me and Andrew running around castles,

country homes, gardens, living in these fantastic, you know, historical places.

And to us, they were places to play hide -and -seek.

Why would people shoot each other and then get told off and thrown out? The

interesting thing always was just like the cultural differences between someone

coming from the US and someone in the UK.

You know, that used to really bug me. The fact that I knew he was going to get

Star Wars, you know, kind of six months before me, that was a killer.

Because, you know, it'd be like, you know, don't you dare tell anything about

this man.

It was almost kind of as well my kind of chaperone inter.

discovered in the U .S., really. You hear people discriminate against the

country just in one fell swoop.

You know, but I was fortunate enough to know very differently to that.

I really cherish that because it is my brother that got married here

tonight. Bizarrely enough, one of the things is I always wanted Andrew to be

best man at my wedding.

As I would soon find out, he was in good company. I'd always wanted him to be my

best man. I'd asked him to be my best man. It just made sense to have him as

best man. I can only assume that you would have asked him to be your best

Everybody grab your glass. We're going to turn over the best man, Andrew. Best

man's a little bit of a poor title for these things. I mean, the best man's

really the groom. I've got to try and sum up 20 -some -odd years in, like, two

minutes or so, because, you know, then people will start looking at the

champagne and thinking, bag me, shut up, or die.

Um...

I miss him a lot.

I wish he was here at the wedding with

us.

I'd just like to just sit him down and talk to him again.

Just to have him there with us.

I really believe your dad was there that day.

And if we could have heard him give a toast, it might have sounded something

like this.

Why am I standing up here?

I guess part of it I've already said.

We're brothers, and I love you, and I know you love me.

And, yeah,

I kind of need to move on from that. Like I said, I'm a bagby male. We don't

gush very much.

It made me realise that it doesn't matter where you come from.

You can meet someone and literally within minutes, you can be closer than

someone you've known for 20 years. Someone who might just end up being as a

friend for the rest of your life.

And last question.

Is there anything you'd like to say to Zachary?

Zachary.

Right.

Yeah, I hope to see you soon, Zachary, anyway.

Jackie had been down earlier in the day to file the papers that we wanted

custody of the baby.

We finally went to court because we... You mean family court? Yes, family

You know, they negotiated with her. I think you know that already. And what

access they got with Shirley, they negotiated. We're coming up with

with this accused murderer. Shirley turned and came up with something else

at the moment when it was all looking good.

She always did that so that it would extend. It was like, I don't have to pay

for my lawyer, you have to pay for yours, so the longer I can make it, it's

better, you know, you run out of money. But then she finally agreed to give us

one hour a week in Unified Family Court.

Shirley delayed your grandma and grandpa from meeting you for almost a month and

had them treated like common criminals in order to see you. She required that

during their one -hour visit they be fully searched and monitored by a

supervisor while she waited in the next room.

When did you first meet him? Meet him personally or meet him by seeing the

in Kate and David's eyes?

I mean, we were searched and everything. I couldn't wait for him to search. I

would have tipped off all my clothes as long as I could get into that baby. We

went around the corner and there was this overpowering thing.

We did not do a complete tug -of -war about it.

No? I just gave him the cake.

No, no, no. We took turns.

The next visit he was really... The next time he was dirty, so I changed his

diaper. And that's when he opened his eyes and got a look at me, and that's

I said to David, oh, my God, he's Andrew. I had seen lots of pictures of

at this point, and even the pictures of him as a child, and I thought, holy

crow, you know, there's no doubt.

We wanted more time, so we went back.

And this time she accused us of keeping him beyond the time so that he was

distraught when he went back to her. She'd try a lot of manipulations without

thinking them through.

And this one was, you know, a no -brainer, really.

If she accuses us of doing anything wrong to the baby, where she's

indirectly accusing Maureen of being a slouch.

The supervisor.

The supervisor. You know, Maureen's not going to take that.

So she just didn't think it through.

While your grandparents and Jackie battled Shirley for more time with you

family court, the law in the extradition proceedings was still slow. September

19th, the extradition hearing finally began and evidence was finally

But just as everything was moving along smoothly, Shirley's lawyer, Randy

Piercy, threw a wrench into the works. Because the authority to proceed with

these hearings provided by the Minister of Justice early that year had failed to

specify subsections 1 or 2 of section 229A of the criminal code, the authority

to proceed was invalid, the 90 -day limit to amend it was now passed, and

therefore... all extradition proceedings against Shirley should be dropped so

she could get on with her life.

Judge Derek Green now had to rule on whether or not to throw out the entire

case, which would take place on October 18th, which was delayed four days until

October 22nd, where Judge Green told Piercy to forget about it and said they

would continue with the extradition hearing on November 14th.

Meanwhile, I came back to California, pointed the van east toward

and set off across the continent on my way to see you, stopping all over the

to collect the memories of a whole spectrum of people your dad touched.

But it was when I pulled into St. Louis to see your grandpa's family... Are you

the oldest?

Yeah, I'm the oldest.

Bob was the middleman. He's one year younger than me. ...that I discovered a

very special place.

where your dad had left his heart.

Andrew and Bob were very, very close.

To see them around each other, you'd think that Andrew had grown up his

life around Bob. You wouldn't know that it was a once -a -summer relationship.

Bob used to take Andrew out and let him drive the truck before he was old enough

and say, play pool.

My dad was very good at pool, but then Matt came along who was even probably

better at pool.

I would say he was excellent, but he wasn't as good as me. He probably stole

from me around $30 ,000.

Okay, Mac is my daughter Rhonda's first husband.

I don't know. They just clicked. I mean, they just clicked. I can't explain why

or anything.

It's automatically my little brother.

That's why I looked at it.

We're just some friends.

This is our clubhouse that me and Bob had.

And he used to love to come down here.

As soon as he'd hit town, we'd come down here and we'd just stay for days. Dave

and Katie and them would come out, always have a big barbecue or fish

Get the John boat and head up the river. He was captain.

I mean, Bob got to the point where we didn't even think about who was going to

drive the boat.

At nighttime, they'd pack up the fog logs and build a bonfire, and we'd buy

fireworks. It'd be beautiful because there's a real start out there. It's

stupid of me checking to see if you're hurt. When you're going to be a damn

doctor, you ought to know yourself.

I'd say if you're smart, you'd be a guy in college.

The doctor came into the room.

and said he had bad news.

He said that the cancer had spread to his bones and to his liver.

Mom looked at him and said, I want the truth.

He said in three to six months.

I mean, I can come down here any time I want. I just don't have time anymore,

really.

I lost... I lost total interest in a lot

of things when Bob died for some reason.

I know it was hard on Andrew too.

Thought you brought me a little note, letter.

Bob was very proud of him.

Imagine him and Andrew laughing at me right now.

Those assholes.

I'm fine now.

Yeah, I'm still sad.

Are we okay?

Here, Tim, give me a hug.

Is there anything you'd like to say to Zachary?

He was great.

Is there anything I can do? I'll be there. We hope to see him.

We've been showing pictures and everything.

We'd love to be a part of that as well, to share our lives with him. Oh, how I

wish I could be there and pinch those little cheeks.

Zachary, you'll never know what you've been.

calling to celebrate two things.

Shirley is in jail.

On November 14, 2002, Judge Derek Green declared that a properly instructed jury

could likely find Shirley guilty and ordered her incarcerated in the

Correctional Center for Women, awaiting a decision from the Minister of Justice

to surrender her to the United States.

She always seemed to know exactly when to turn nice.

And it was a pretty obvious time to turn nice. Suddenly, Shirley turned around

and gave your grandma and grandpa custody of you for as long as she was in

prison. We could step in and see him whenever we liked.

And we did.

They were so excited it was Christmas Eve and, you know, it had started to

a little bit and the doorbell was ringing and someone showed up with a

And then I think Alan Goodrich, he was a professor, one of our professors, he

showed up with something,

I don't know what.

And then, you know, finally I said, why do you got like the Magi showing up?

At your house. We went to church with them on Christmas Eve. If Zachary got

fussy, you know, they would pick him up and they would feed him and they'd walk

to the back of the church. If there's people in this church that don't know

five of us, it looks like these are the grandparents, we're the parents, and

Zachary is our child.

I said, we look like terrible parents.

He would be sad with them. The child was, you know, no one could comfort him

the case.

They were so happy.

But it wasn't all sweetness and light.

You came with strings attached.

The reason we reached consent and the reason she reached consent is if you

consent, you have some control.

We'd accept a phone call a day from jail to talk about Zachary. Which the foster

home would have done anyway. This is Alliance Telecom. You have a collect

from Shirley.

You may press 1 now to accept the charge.

Thank you. Hello? Hi.

Yeah, hi.

Are you babysitting?

Just got up. He's a little teary -eyed, but... Here you go, boss.

Hi, sweetheart.

Zachary, how is our baby today?

Oh, hi.

Are you having a good day with grandmama and granddad?

Zachary, I love you, baby.

Mommy loves you.

Mommy misses you.

Christmas is coming, and you're getting all ready for Christmas. I hate every

time I call you, I have to ask you guys a favor, but you're not supposed to know

this is a surprise. Surprise for you from Zachary.

I don't know what to get Zachary. Some of those frames even at the dollar

will say, there'll be little sayings on them. Like if you want to say mommy and

daddy on a frame and stick a picture of me and Andrew in it. I don't know. Or,

you know, mommy with baby.

What about the one of me and Andrew? Did you have anywhere to put that? Not yet.

Not yet.

Do you feel all right about putting that up?

Not quite yet. Yes, okay. Now, I want to ask you how it keeps doing. I thought

about her all night. I wrote her a long letter last night to try and make her

feel better.

I think, I've got to say it again.

how well you guys are taking care of him the way I would be taking care of him.

Even Randy Pearson, he was like, Shirley, are you sure you can trust

people? And I said, yes, I am. He said, do you really believe they love the

child? I said, yes, as much as I do. We'd bring him up to the prison for a

weekly visit.

That you would have from 2 to 4, and then again from 5 to 7.

Each week they would drive two hours to the jail where Shirley was so that she

would be able to see her son and to follow the visitation rites. Because

Kate and David wanted visitation rites, they had to honor Shirley's visitation

rites. And in the winter. But the weather needed to stay in Newfoundland.

weather here is terrible. I mean, that journey was awful.

Only Kate and David would have done it, really, I think.

nobody else would have done it. The one guard, the one day, said to Kate and

David, speaking to Zachary, Zachary, I hope someday you will realize how brave

and courageous your grandparents are.

Like, I think if I could be a quarter of the grandma that Kate is, I'd be such a

success.

You know, seeing them with Zachary, just to see the looks on their faces, Kurt,

when they'd have them, you know. You know, to see them so happy.

And then, you know, that ended, didn't it?

Now crossing the east coast of the U .S., I was almost to you. I pulled off

main road for one last stop, a small -town utopia where your dad had spent

last four months of his life.

It was here that I would find the only people who knew what he was like as a

doctor, just days before they would graduate and scatter to the winds.

Oh, Latrobe is famous for...

Mr. Rogers.

Of children's TV fame. Rolling Rock beer.

Birthplace of professional football, though some would argue that.

Pharmacy. I'm told that the banana split was invented here in Latrobe.

And Arnold Palmer. Mr. Palmer is a very... important figure in this

This is a community where people don't even lock their doors.

Your dad's door was directly across the street from the hospital, giving him a

30 -second commute to work.

And I said, can I call you Andy? And he goes, actually, I don't like Andy. He

said, you can call me Andrew, you can call me Bagby, you can call me Bag. I

never did.

Ten minutes after I arrived, Dr. Bill DiCuccio picked me up to show me around

town. Was there anyone that seemed like he was particularly close to you? His

class, it was Bill DiCuccio.

And after hanging with Bill for a short while, I completely understood why.

This is yours to take with you in your travels.

to remember the chief resident's office they were like mutton jeff they were

tweedledee and tweedledum bill was just devastated as we all were but especially

so i think bill had spent more time with him and i i know there's a third year

resident clark was quite close with him he was just The surgical resident from

Syracuse. Being a former surgical intern, that's a big deal. They're all

cutting and what we do is a little bit different. It's more about people. I

would say to them, now you go out there and you go and you listen to the heart

and you talk to those people because, you know, like people talk. They're not

just unconscious all the time. Your dad also had an office visit every Monday

afternoon at the last place he was ever seen alive.

A clinic in the small town of Salzburg, a beautiful 30 -minute drive away

through the country, passed a lovely spot called Keystone State Park.

He was already, just within a couple of months, already getting patients to call

and specifically ask for him.

People trusted him when he walked into a room. His medicine's a little like

being a detective.

Has anyone else in your family experienced this?

When you think of people who have passed, you can't help but paint a rosy

around them. More than half of it.

It's being able to get a story out of somebody.

It's not what's happening in this case. I'll always be grateful to him because

he diagnosed my nephew's cancer. And he diagnosed it early enough that he was

able to get complete treatment.

He was really pretty outstanding at this stuff. He was told he may never ever

have children.

He just has a newborn baby. He always told me that he wanted to practice in a

town the size of La Trobe and be like the doc of the town, know everybody,

everybody's family.

And we really thought he found heaven.

But we packed our bags, went to bed, because we knew we were going to be

the next morning.

And we stayed in the upstairs spare bedroom of Andrew's house. Next morning,

saw him off at 6 .30.

And as I said, that's when I noticed he was blinking for the first time.

And he did that when he was a little boy, when he was nervous or worried

something. Just blink, blink, blink.

And I wanted to say to him, oh, Andrew, what's the matter? He stood up.

And I remember he looked at us such a long time, but he came over and he

me and kissed his dad, and then he got halfway into that room and he came back

and kissed us again, and we went with him and he kissed us again at the door,

and then he got across the hospital there, down that alley, and just went...

That was the

last time until... we saw him dead.

And I can remember Andrew saying, if I die tomorrow, all I want you to do is

sit and toast a beer to me. Do you remember that? When his parents had

cleaning out his apartment, they gave me his last beer. We have one bottle

remaining. We're going to crack Andrew's last Fuller's ESB right now, and Kurt

and I are going to sip it together.

A little toast to our friend.

To Andrew, my good friend, I can't wait to see you again.

The unthinkable happened again. They let her out of jail again.

And then we had to get him back on January 10th, 2003.

Curley was out of money and out of a lawyer, so she wrote directly to Judge

Derek Green, who responded through his secretary with instructions on how to

write her own appeal of his decision to incarcerate her while awaiting an order

from the Minister of Justice to surrender her to the state. I have a few

who are judges, and there's no way they would ever have responded.

In the way that judge responded early.

He did, and was let back onto the street by... Judge Gail Welsh.

Judge Gail Welch. Welch refused to even consider prosecutor Mike Madden's

argument that Shirley's appeal was frivolous, even though multiple legal

commission attorneys had reviewed her appeal and refused to waste their time

representing her. And if you could have seen, I knew that we were going to be

seeing Shirley Turner walk free. The minute that woman walked into the room,

Judge Welch, she was almost fawning with Shirley Turner as I saw it. Oh, Dr.

Turner, she said. I recognize that you're not represented, but also know

a doctor, you're quite capable. So I'm going to run Dr. Turner. I'm not trying

to exclude. However, the argument would work to your benefit. That's why I'm

particularly interested in Mr. Madden's response.

I'd taken Zachary to prison. I'd sat in that same little room with her. And here

I am having to listen to this and the judge fawn on this woman. And Welsh

actually asked an accused murderer to promise she'd behave herself.

If I make an order giving you judicial interim release, it would be on the

that you would not attempt to flee or hide or avoid subsequent judicial

proceedings related to this matter?

Yes. Is that completely understood by you? Yes, I completely understand. And

here David and I as if we don't even... And we don't exist. They don't care

about us. They don't even care about the victims. She concluded that... And this

is from her written decision.

Dr. Turner's detention is not necessary in the public interest.

While the offense with which she is charged is a violent and serious one, it

not directed at the public at large. There is no indication of a

disorder that would give concern about potential harm to the public generally,

as her crime, while violent, was specific in nature. She is saying, in

if I understand that sentence, even if she did it...

She's not a danger to the community because she's already killed the only

she wanted to kill. He's the one she was mad at.

He's dead.

So she's not likely to kill again.

And I find that logic absolutely atrocious. Most of us do not kill people

anger us. We go kick a door or scream and shout. Some of us throw a punch. But

we don't set them up and kill them. You have here a human being who thinks they

have the right to kill other people who anger them.

And you still let them out in the general populace. I find that appalling.

was again let go on $75 ,000 in sureties, not one penny of which had to

And with that, the government of Canada let a probable premeditated first

-degree murderer walk the street again.

And they gave you back to her.

And after that, things got really weird.

I don't think it's a good idea for us to meet unsupervised.

Okay. We went and wrote another consent order, and we agreed to a schedule of

visits with like three or four hours, three times a week, and an overnight

two weeks. We got them to let us have more contact with Shirley

in order to pass the baby back.

Hello?

Hello, Shirley. Hi. David.

Because we've always had to arrange for a third party, and then that third party

would be not available, and we saw that we'd never get visits with the baby

because you could always find a reason that there was nobody there, you know?

So this evolved

into...

Actually spending a great deal of time with Shirley Turner.

So it's not like I need you guys, like, you know, it's going to be a big deal to

me if I don't have you to babysit. In order to be around Zachary. I don't want

to just like totally cut Kate out of the babysitting game, right? And she's a

good babysitter, I think. She certainly is. What kind of things did you do?

Go to the mall. Go to the movies, swimming lessons, we took him to. Sunday

like, we do the Easter egg hunt and we go to church.

She came here, bold as brass.

coming to be in our face kind of thing. It's just lucky we're all the same

religion. I mean, that's just the way it turned out, really.

I had enormous fears. I had fear that Shirley would go for them. Basically, I

just, by your word, that I'm going to know where he's at, like any babysitter,

you know. And they didn't seem to be.

worried for themselves.

In fact, they said they weren't. You know, if you're going to take them and

were to say, surely we're going to run out and do this, is it okay?

But at this point, they didn't care.

I know you wouldn't be worried.

We disappeared for a couple of days or whatever, right?

I know he's there, right?

Disgusting.

There has been, I guess, a lot of uncomfortable feeling on both our parts.

would really like for you and Kate to reconsider getting some help with that.

But going up to the door.

I was really upset when you took him today because I feel like I did today.

saw him at Unified Family Court.

Having to be with her.

I don't know if he's okay with you.

I know you're not going to hurt him, but I don't know what you're saying to him.

It's just nauseating. Look, we will do what is best for Zachary.

We will not hurt Zachary, period.

Do you understand?

I know you don't want to. You don't tend to.

If we don't get help, we don't know if we're doing what's best. We religiously

did not talk about the case. Now, you don't like this answer, but I'm going to

give it to you again.

The reason we go through the lawyers is so that we don't have these meltdowns

and emotional scenes.

Understood? Now, I can't consent to more time right now.

I thought it was like being at war.

Nobody wants to do it, but you've got to do it.

So, facing this bitch.

That's the price we had to pay to make sure we had a good connection with

Zachary. We knew us, we knew him.

So that when she finally went to prison.

Listen, Charlie.

Charlie, listen.

He'd have a smooth transition into our life. You're going to go buy food and

diapers and bring them to the door this morning.

Zachary has to be fed and diapered.

So we will bring the stuff.

Understood?

I just feel awe about that. I can't... I don't know how they did it, Kurt.

I don't know how they did it, but I know why they did it.

And finally, after thousands of miles and memories, on a rainy Sunday

we met.

Hello, bud.

Hello.

This is your uncle Kurt. Aww.

Here we go.

You know your daddy from when he was a little boy.

Yeah.

Is there anything you would like to say to Zachary?

Oh, wow.

Without tearing up here.

First of all, I saw your pictures.

And you are a very cute kid. And you look exactly like Andrew. Definitely the

cheeky Andrew face.

Definitely.

Zachary, you're a lucky little boy.

And you're an unfortunate little boy.

Your father, who you'll never know, was such an amazing guy.

And he touched so many people in such a short period of time. It's not just a

bunch of stories. He was a real person. Quite frankly, don't let anybody lie to

you. Wouldn't eat anything green until he went away to college.

Zachary is asleep in the other room.

He's spending the night.

And you're an unfortunate little boy because you're more than likely to grow

without your biological father or your biological mother.

But with a little bit of luck...

You'll get to grow up with Andrew's parents.

And let me tell you this.

They did the most amazing job.

You couldn't ask for two better people.

Mama loves you, yes she does.

Granddad loves you, yes he does.

Daddy loves you, yes he does.

Uncle cuts him, he loves you too.

We all love you while we can.

Darling, darling.

and so from that perspective you're the luckiest little boy in the world they

love you more than life itself and if you ever need anything I'm not far away

and know that we'll be there for you

in every way that he can't be. Zach, when you're old enough and you watch

if you ever want to talk with me personally, or you want to come and see

have an open invitation, and you should know that.

And you're loved, and I love you, and I care about the person you're going to

become. We love him, and we do simple things like send him books. Happy

birthday. Can't wait to meet him. I hope to get the chance to meet you. Oh, I

hope. I'm Uncle Ken DeZachary. To hear anything like Andrew.

It's going to be good. I think you'll turn out just great. This is Student

Affairs. Are you a student? Who knows? Maybe someday you'll be applying here to

the Faculty of Medicine.

We're going to do an interview. Even though things started tragically, you

he's the blessing Andrew left behind.

I parked the van two blocks away because it was the only vehicle for miles with

California plates and would give away to Shirley that I was in town. Sort of a

stealth van.

Exactly. If she knew, I was afraid she would find excuses to withhold you so

that I couldn't see you.

Every time the doorbell rang, I hid in the back bedroom and it could have been

her just dropping by unannounced. Hi, Dave. Hi, Kate. This is Shirley. On the

days we didn't have you, I discovered your dad's medical school world, met his

classmates, found more footage of him for you, and finally, I found myself

to face.

with the thing that had set me on this journey in the first place. One of the

major things that Andrew and I did together, though, or that we had in

with photography, sometimes we'd bring the cameras out and go around the lake

the pond and take some pictures around there. I told Andrew, I said, listen,

you're going to have to, like, show me a few tricks or whatever and show me some

of your pictures, and I'd still love to see some of the pictures that he took

through medical school. I've never seen any of them.

Him and his dad had done quite a bit of photography together.

Right after this happened, fired on email saying we should try to think of

sort of memorial award.

And I felt like that would be something also that his dad would really feel

honored by. And then have a wall in the medical school to be able to say, you

know, year after year, you know, these are the winners. And people could sit

there and look and be like, wow, you know, look at that. I think I have a

meeting tomorrow morning to participate in the judging tomorrow.

I find it interesting that you say that you hadn't heard that. I wonder if part

of it was eventually maybe having Dad independently say, oh, who took this

picture? It's a really nice picture, and have him say, oh, me.

I don't know.

But it's something he did.

On July 18, 2003...

You turned one. I do have a complaint, finally.

Oh. He is too happy, Kathleen. Okay.

Shirley decided to hold a birthday party for you at McDonald's. She started to

open presents. Well, he wasn't interested in presents. He wanted to get

So when he got down, he made for me.

Shirley was very, very angry. So she...

He loves you more than he wanted to take him. Sometimes you don't realize what

you're saying. I think it was one time we were on the phone or something.

Yeah, the baby cried.

Yeah, all my baby. Yeah, I mean, I can watch that for sure.

You aren't trying to take my place.

Zachary always, from the time he could choose, would choose Kate over her.

That was obvious, and other people talked about it. Kate is a warm and

mother. She was a phony mother. I love you.

Mommy loves you.

Yes, I do.

She knew the motions, but there's no warmth in her. Zachary, I love you,

Mommy loves you.

Mommy loves you. She said that she had kids and that she wasn't interested in

living with them either. And she said she kind of went off to medical school

left them. And she said that they lived with their fathers, and she said that

children were more trouble than they were worth. I believe she's using her

children now to manipulate the system and to make Kate and David suffer, even

she goes to.

Fortunately, there are enough people here who are in the...

In the system, the justice system, the child protection system, that I know

personally who have told me that that will not happen.

The next hearing in the extradition process was set for September 25th, your

dad's 30th birthday, where he would likely be reincarcerated and at last

returned to the U .S. for trial.

But for now, it was time for me to go home. I have to say bye -bye now.

I'm going to say bye -bye. Bye -bye to Uncle Kurt.

Can I give him a hug?

Can I give him a hug?

Grab him and take it.

Was that funny?

Was that funny? Bye -bye, sweetie.

Bye -bye, sweetie.

I'll see you later, buddy.

Oh, you'll be a little bigger next time I see you. He had just completed the

child health check that they do.

He's ahead of his time. He's doing great. He's up to par on everything.

But he doesn't like to wave goodbye.

Bye -bye.

Bye -bye.

Bye -bye. One of them said, that's fine because, you know, he's got lots of time

to learn that. Is there anything you'd like to say to Zachary? I'm hoping that

I'm going to have all the opportunity to say those things to Zachary.

We had been out, we came back here, there was a little card in the door from

Constable Walsh saying that would we contact him. I was here.

Mark and I were here. I was at my house. I was home watching the 6 o 'clock MTV

news and the next thing I saw a picture of Shirley and Zachary and saying that

they were missing and I was weeping.

the top of my lungs. And I immediately fell to the floor. Oh, I immediately

over to the repairman. We came here. We just left him.

I'll never forget that moment. They're going to find them. They're going to be

okay. You're overreacting. You're going to think the worst. You know, she'd

probably gone for a night. My first thought was that she had left. She had

him and run. She couldn't do that. She couldn't possibly do that. That was

two or three hours of uncertainty and emotion. It was overwhelming.

I know you wouldn't be worried if we disappeared for a couple of days or

whatever, right? They called us and told us that they were doing a search.

beach out in Conception Bay, so I thought they were doing that for a

had received a call having a press conference on the Turner case. I went to

Father Chris. I just whispered to him, I think you better stay because I think

I'm going to be going back here with some really bad news. He told me that

had found a baby.

I learned with an adult. I knew then that there was two bodies. They're

to identify the bodies.

We came to the door and it was Jackie and we cut through the walls. And I

oh my gosh, somebody's with them now trying to help them. We went in and I

them.

And what I saw after that I will never forget in my life.

And then we went to have to identify

him and we couldn't touch him.

Because they said he was forensic.

He hadn't been through the autopsy yet.

There's this table and sort of white sheets up all around him. A white sheet

over the body. You could see over the sheets. Clearly it was his. It was him.

It's really him.

And then Kate's legs quit.

She just went straight to the floor.

David was lying on top of Kate on the floor. We managed to get him out. I

know how we did it, Kurt.

I don't know how I got out myself.

That poor little baby.

a summary of the evidence against shirley turner part two in july of 2003

shirley met a man at a bar in downtown st john's they went out twice until his

friends showed him articles on the web saying she was accused of killing her

last boyfriend he told her he didn't want to see her anymore She then called

left over 200 messages on his phone, including one saying that she was

and that he needed to... Step up to the plate and be a fucking man.

She wasn't, as her autopsy showed.

The night she killed you, she made a phony phone call from her apartment to a

friend's answering machine, claiming to be at this man's house with you. She

took your brother TJ's car at about 11 .38 that night and drove to the man's

house. She got lost along the way and asked a woman for directions along this

road around 12 .45 a .m. She parked behind his house, left a used tampon and

photos of the two of you on his property, completing her attempt to...

this man for what she was about to do, then took you down to the ocean behind

his home.

A night watchman in the area thought he heard a baby crying in the distance

around 2 .30 a .m. Shirley took her prescription for Ativan, prescribed to

by psychiatrist John Doucette, mixed it into your formula, then took some

herself. The only good thing we know about this is that you were not

and you did not suffer. She then walked to the edge of a pier, and with you

strapped to her stomach with a sweater, she jumped into the Atlantic Ocean.

Mommy loves you.

Yes, I do.

Mummy loves you. Did you have a nice nap?

What did you dream about? Mummy loves you.

Mummy loves you.

He was found face upwards with his eyes wide open and the policeman who

found him said that he had wrapped him in a blanket rather than a plastic bag

and he and another officer carried him gently back.

And he made very sure that he kept the body very far away from the wicked woman

who had murdered him.

When we came here, David and I realized what Shirley Turner

was. She was the devil.

But people think that you're some kind of basic religious nut if you believe in

the devil. I haven't prayed since Zachary died. I have some issues I have

deal with. You know, my faith has been tested by this.

It's a beautiful service.

A real tribute to the little boy.

Oh, I don't know how many people were here. Probably 300 or 400 people, maybe

more. I don't recall.

I've never seen a coffin so small before.

They shouldn't have them that size.

He was in his little suit that he'd had the pictures taken in, I think.

What went in it? What went in it? His little ball and...

I don't remember if she put a truck in.

Lots of kisses and hugs and tears went in it.

Lots of hopes and dreams.

Your grandma and grandpa went back to England and spread your ashes with your

dad's. They went back to St. Louis and spread your ashes with your dad's. And I

didn't go with him.

Andrew wanted to be cremated. Oh, yes.

Yes. What bothers Kate is that she did not go with him to the crematorium and

stay with him right to the end. He went from the funeral home to the crematorium

all alone in plastic bags with only his head

sticking out.

That's why we went right up to the oven doors with Zachary.

This is what that fucking bitch didn't know.

Or maybe she did know. This is what she's leaving.

Maybe she did know.

If she thought about it at all, she didn't give a good goddamn.

And this is what I hate her for.

I hate her for a lot of things.

Stealing the rest of Andrew's life and virtually all of Zachary's life and then

this.

Leaving us like this.

A couple of times lying in there in bed at night, I considered fixing the

problem myself.

Pick a night when Kate took a sleeping pill so she wouldn't know I was up.

Get up in the middle of the night, dream up a pretext, go kill Caroline, come

back and go back to bed, so Kate would not know.

That way, number one, she could not harm Zachary.

And number two, even if they did catch me at it, I'm the first one they come

looking for, of course. But Kate could truthfully say she didn't know that I

doing it, so she might still get to...

bring up Zachary, get him started even if I go to prison in Canada. We've

through possibilities of nauseam. Suppose we grab Zachary and run. Number

we've got to get off the island and into the land. The big drawback against

living here is getting out of here. There's only three ways to do that.

boat, airplane. The airplane and the ferry would be covered as soon as

missing. We have to...

Hire a boat somehow, which means you've taken a third party to the crime of

kidnapping. We can't go home. We cannot ever identify ourselves as ourselves. We

have cash only stashed all around the country. Zachary will never be allowed

know his family, our friends. So that path, big, big, big, big risk with a

horrible life. So that's out. Legal approaches we might have taken. Invent

something. File affidavits saying, you know, Charlie slipped one night.

We were around and said a threat of some kind that might get her incarcerated.

But that would just be our word against hers. The best shot we had at keeping

Zachary alive was I kill her myself. Other than doing that, I can think of no

other way to save Zachary from that bitch.

There's a logic in it.

But I didn't do it because I trusted government to do its job. Government is

supposed to stop that, so I don't have to do it personally. In this case, they

didn't even get her off the street, and they even gave her a baby to look after.

My understanding is that proper protocols were followed. I have asked my

officials to, did ask them some time ago, to follow up with the board to see,

fact, that everything, all the proper protocols had been adhered to. They were

gambling.

Zachary's life. They were gambling the lives of anyone in the general

that Shirley came in contact with. We, the vast majority of good people who

don't kill people, are stuck. We've got nowhere to go. We figured we'd hold a

press conference and try to push for changes in law. So the morning that we

scheduled the press conference, I was in the shower and came in with the phone.

Zachary says we can't hold a press conference. Technically, there's still a

press... ban in place. He said, fuck them, fuck them. If they want to lock me

for talking while the murderer's walking down the street.

We believe that Shirley Turner bears 100 % of the responsibility for the murder

of our son, Andrew. We believe that the legal system helped her to kill our

grandson, Zachary. When Shirley Turner was formally charged and escaped to

Canada, we naively thought she would be sent back to Pennsylvania within a few

weeks at the most.

When we learned that she was out on bail under an order from Justice David

Russell, we were numb.

Numb. Good afternoon, Judge Russell's office.

I'm a documentary filmmaker. I'm doing a documentary about the Zachary Turner

case. I think all he might have done one time was probably a bail review. Is

that what you're calling it? Yeah, it was December 12, 2001, actually. Okay.

Judge Russell is sorry, but he won't be able to be interviewed. Any connection

with that matter? Crown prosecutor Mike Madden didn't even argue against her

release on bail that day and instead entered the courtroom with an agreement

already in place for her release.

Mike Madden speaking. I'm a documentary filmmaker. I was a friend of Andrew

Bagby. Yes. Wondering if you would be interested in possibly being interviewed

for... No, I don't think so. Not one penny of her bail sureties had to be

by anyone who signed, nor did they have to show proof of ability to pay. No

money's put up. No money at all. Yeah, they could have put 20 cents or 20...

My call was not returned.

Our

lawyer,

Jackie, went to see Betty Day.

An administrator is somewhere in the hierarchy of child protective services

told her that we are concerned about the safety of the baby because the mother

is accused of a premeditated murder. And nothing happened.

Hello, Department of Health and Community Services.

Hi, I'm trying to reach Elizabeth Day. Elizabeth Day is not available at the

tone. Please record your message.

My call was not returned.

If you were in the family health services, wouldn't you want to know who

accused murderer was arranging for her baby to stay with? Nobody ever came to

see us. Before we left Sunnyvale, we got a police report saying that we were

good people. Our friends and my employer wrote letters that we were upright

members of the community.

Nobody asked us for that. We could have been convicted of child molesters in

California.

I don't care. Nobody would have known. She wrote directly to Judge Derek Green,

who responded through his secretary with instructions on how to write her own

appeal of his decision to incarcerate her. Mr. Kenney? Yes? Yeah, this is

Justice Green. What I did is on the record and speak for itself. Okay, okay.

Under an order from Justice Gail Welsh, Shirley Turner was released on bail

again.

And we went numb again.

And we had to give Zachary right back into the hands of Andrew's killer.

There is no indication of a psychological disorder that would give

potential harm to the public generally. Shirley's last boyfriend before Andrew

told Pennsylvania police that Shirley attempted suicide on his front doorstep

after he broke up with her and had threatened to kill him. There is no

indication of a psychological disorder that would give concern about potential

harm to the public generally. Eight people had restraining orders against

There is no indication of a psychological disorder that would give

potential harm to the public generally.

If anyone had bothered to check the jail records during her two -month stay, the

prison psychiatrist put her on suicide watch every 15 minutes. She was

incredibly disruptive and even threatened to stab another inmate with a

There is no indication of a psychological disorder that would give

potential harm to the public generally. As her crime, while violent, was

specific in nature. The man she was terrorizing called the police and

Shirley, but because he didn't leave his name, no one took any actions. Her

crime, while violent, was specific in nature. Andrew rejected her and she

him. Zachary rejected her.

Her crime, while violent, was specific in nature.

Of course the crime was specific. She didn't shoot into a crowd of people. We

could not conceive how they could let a probable premeditated murderer, a

probable premeditated murderer, walk the streets. Dr. Turner's detention is not

necessary in the public interest. Who the hell is this to protect me? Dr.

Turner's detention is not necessary in the public interest. We waited and we

waited and we waited.

for the authorities to do their job and lock her up. We've got a dead body with

five holes in it, and it means nothing. Under an order from Justice Gail Welsh.

Good afternoon, Court of Appeal. I must speak to Judge Welsh, please.

Is she expecting your call?

Uh -huh, probably not, no. And now we've got a second dead body that couldn't

breathe through water. I just spoke with Judge Welsh, and she said no. She said

no, so I just want to let you know. Dr. Turner's detention is not necessary in

the public interest.

She had to be stopped. The people who were supposed to stop her didn't.

And she got to kill again.

And I'm going to do my damnedest to see if I can make them change the way they

deal with killers.

And with that, your grandma and grandpa became activists.

We want,

number one, the whole truth public about why is that being done. They've

developed a program, a support group for people who have had...

death through, you know, violent death. Welcome to our first victim of homicide

annual vigil.

In this last year, I've just taken training to become a child advocate in

dependency court victim.

John Doucette, the psychiatrist who posted $65 ,000 bail for Ms. Turner.

was found guilty of professional misconduct. It was David Bagby and his

launched the complaint against Doucette. The three -person panel ordered

Doucette to undergo psychiatric counseling.

There was a lot of sympathy for David and Kate. I think it got them at least a

result that they were hoping to accomplish.

Mr. Wicks, child and youth advocate for Newfoundland and Labrador, is doing a

child death review, which is a formal investigation.

and the output of it is a report saying, here's why that baby died, and

recommendations for changes to cut the chance of that happening in the future.

Obviously, once that's done, then we would like to see that go to whatever

legislative bodies, either provincial or federal, can write laws to make these

recommendations real.

A report into the death of Zachary Turner will be released in Newfoundland.

was drowned by his mother. Your grandma was temporarily injured in a fall and

couldn't make the trip, so your grandpa and I came alone.

Dr. Markeson conducted an exhaustive investigation over a 15 -month period.

He reached two key conclusions.

One, Zachary Turner's death was preventable.

And two, Zachary was in his mother's care when he should not have been. The

government has received a scathing report that concluded the child

system failed Zachary Turner.

A serious lack of judgment at the senior management level.

Substandard child protection practices contributed to the outcome. There are 58

recommendations in the report. I am announcing our action plan. We will

policy specific to children whose parents are charged with a violent

part I was most interested in, as I said, is...

Why was Dr.

Shirley Turner granted judicial interim release, commonly known as bail?

This is the one question that Dr. Marcus Stein did not and could not answer. So

that's still an open wound, if you would. May I? He did say this. Had Dr.

Turner not been released on bail on 12 December 2001 or on 10 January 2003...

My review would have been unnecessary.

Zachary would be alive today. I would like to see Parliament pass a law

bail to people accused of murder. Put them on the fast track to get to trial

get on with it, get to the truth. The only way I can see it changing is for

every citizen who cares about this to tell his MP that this law is stupid.

Change it. And, of course, such a selfish thing to do. She not only killed

Andrew, but she left three other children without a mother, which is very

for them.

And what kind of regret does that give? of you?

Well, if things were different, I guess it's possible he'd still be alive. And

rather than memories of just one year, it would be a lot of years from now.

Tough losing a little brother.

Zachary should be right here with me.

He should be off going to school now and getting ready to go to school. I'm

going to continue to scream long and loud about bail for someone accused of

Shirley did to my son.

I traveled the world for years looking for what was left of your dad.

I'd made dozens of new friends. Dr. DiCuccio has made the trek out to

California. But there was still one question I couldn't answer.

How would I know when I was done?

And what was I really looking for? Both as spirituality and as grief.

The relocation of the other person is essential.

It's interesting you should ask that. My first response was, that's not a

person. That is simply a mass of...

Food and protein and fat and water and something leaves the body when death

occurs. What was I trying to find?

To resolve our grief, we have to be able to accept the reality of that loss.

Who's interviewing you, Kurt? Get our questions answered to the extent that

can be and to basically surrender to the things that we can't have answered.

And how would I know when I'd found it?

I appreciate you doing this part, because I know we talk about you a lot.

talk about you.

Really?

Well, then you're not a good movie maker, huh?

Because that's what he always told me. I know he loves you. And then to be able

to continue to live remembering the person, to be able to remember their

not only their death.

I didn't want to stop making this movie.

That would mean I learned everything there was to know.

And finish my one last movie with him. Earl Grohlman again says, grief is love

on willingness to let go. He doesn't like to wave goodbye.

One

more

time. And action. It is my brother that got married here tonight.

One more time. And action. This is your uncle Kurt.

Aww.

One more time.

And action.

When a person says life will never be the same again, will it?

They now know where they are and what's involved in moving forward.

There were so many stories I wanted to tell you.

And somewhere I hope you're watching.

I almost gave up making this film when you were killed.

I couldn't see the point anymore.

But something kept me going.

And then one day I realized what it was.

This film was no longer a letter to you.

It was now a letter to someone else. We thought we'd go get Andrew and get

everything organized, whatever, and then kill ourselves because no point going

on. Everybody always says, well, what would be the difference if one person

weren't alive?

You've still got a hell of a lot to live for, and you've still got a lot of

friends and a lot of family who love you very, very much. You are the most.

Amazing. I love all the strongest people I've ever known.

I love you guys. I love them very much. I love them very much. I love them very

much. And how am I going to do this without weeping? I admire you and

you so much for two things. One, for such a wonderful young man that you

It doesn't matter what happened. They raised a wonderful man. Thanks for

bringing such a wonderful person into the world. You know, Andrew contributed

lot to me as far as who I am today. We won't forget their time. And for having

the strength.

Make it through something like this. With what you've been through, to still

carrying on, still to hold your heads up and keep going and pushing forward

is...

Amazing. They've done it in such a way that it makes you proud to know them and

to be related to them. I think God put some people down on earth just to be

examples for the rest of us. You are two very, very special people.

There's few things in my life that have had an effect on me like those two

people. I don't know how else. I love them. We love you. Oh, we love them. And

think about them daily.

My thoughts are never far from either of you. I love them and pray for them.

God's blessing.

On the boat. Oh, they know. I love them. I feel very blessed, as I say, to be

among their friends. Well, I just thank them for being my friends for 30 -odd

years. We're very lucky to have them as our neighbors and our true friends. God

bless you guys and call me.

It does.

As one of Andrew's very good friends told us, very soon after he was

we still had children.

Kurt, Matt, Chris.

I'm down to live. I feel like I got lucky in life because they're another

parents. Kate and David were a big reason why I am the person that I am

We're all their kids.

I'll always be there for you guys. And I love you both dearly. We all love you

guys so much. There's really nothing that I wouldn't do for them.

Yeah.

Yeah, you make me feel better. I know that no matter what.

You're going to find ways to continue to help people because that's the type of

people you are.

That's how good you are. I just hope that Dave and Kate realize how much he

loved them because just in the short period of time that I knew him, that was

the one truth that I knew to be absolute.

I'm glad I wasn't a rebellious youth because it would have been completely

utterly fucking wasted on Dave and Kate Bagby. I mean, totally. I had my ear

pierced for two weeks.

They never noticed. I'm finally sitting at the dinner table, and I actually said

to them, I'm like, you know, Mom, Dad, it's a good thing I'm not looking for

attention, because, hello!

And they try to have a look at it, and they're like, oh, that's nice.

And I love you, and I know you love me, and, yeah, I

kind of need to move on from that.

I'm a bagby male. We don't gush very much.