All language subtitles for Let.The.Fire.Burn.2013.1080p.WEBRip.x264-RARBG

[ Objects Rustling ]

Michael, uh, you remember me
from the last time
you and I talked?

About a week ago?

You see this camera?
You're going to have
to say "yes"...

so that camera can take down
everything you say.

Because that camera can't
take down something
when you shake your head.

Can you say "yes" for us?
Let me hear you say, "Yes."
Yes.

That's pretty good. How about
a little bit louder than that?
Yes.

And we talked
about what happened
on the 13th of May?

You remember that?
Yeah.

Now, Michael,
do you know what it is to, uh--
to tell the truth about things?

You're gonna have to say yes.
You can't shake your head.
Yes.

Okay. What does it mean
when you have to tell the truth
about things?

Don't lie.
Don't lie. That's right.

And do you know what happens
to people who lie?

Hmm?
Yeah.

What happens to them?
They get hurt.

They get hurt.

[ Sirens Wailing ]

[ Horns Honking ]

[ Man ] Yes, the big story
on Action News tonight
is the effort to evict MOVE...

from its house on the 6200 block
of Osage Avenue.

The effort has turned
into a disaster.

The fire is now five-alarm,
still raging out of control
as you can see.

[ Man ] An unknown number
of heavily-armed MOVE members
continue at large,

possibly roaming the alleyways.

[ Man #2 ]
Going in, everybody knew
that MOVE would resist anything.

[ Woman ]
While the police will say that
they come here to arrest people,

we have done nothing wrong.

We do not want policemen killed.
We do not want people
in the house killed.

[ Man ]
Fellow officer, James Ramp,
was killed seven years ago.

They will never forget that.

Okay. This is unconfirmed.
We've got to emphasize
this is unconfirmed.

But Channel 10 technician,
Fran Hardy reports--

[ Woman ]
An incendiary device was
dropped out of that helicopter.

Nobody around here has ever
seen anything like this.

[ Woman #2 ] We expect
that maybe 60, perhaps more,
homes have gone up in flames.

I stand fully accountable
for the actions that
took place tonight.

[ Man ] How did an attempt
to arrest MOVE members
become an inferno...

that killed 11 people
and destroyed 61 homes?

[ Man #2 ] You can
call the group reactionists,
revolutionaries, terrorists.

That was a decision--
to let the fire burn.

[ Tape Whirring ]

[ Stops ]

[ Chattering ]

On May 13, 1985,

years of conflict between
the city of Philadelphia...

and a small, urban group
known as MOVE...

ended in a violent,
daylong encounter...

between the groups' members
and the Philadelphia police.

It was one of
the most devastating days in
the modern history of the city.

Before we call
the first witness--
[ Man Clears Throat ]

I want to tell you
about this special commission.

We are men and women,
black and white,

guided by our own attitudes
and beliefs.

What we hope to accomplish is
to begin healing the wounds...

caused by the failure to resolve
conflicting lifestyles
in a peaceful way.

[ Man ]
Six, five, four, three--
[ Tone ]

This is MOVE, the people
in an organization that admits
to being totally revolutionary.

For the past four years,

they have lived
in the Powelton Village area
of West Philadelphia,

often running into conflicts
with police.

Their personal appearance
has brought stares...

and some expressions
of disapproval
from the community.

But it what they do that counts,
not how they look.

In everything from work habits
to child raising,
MOVE is revolutionary.

Uh, I was indoctrinated with
a philosophy in the Panthers...

that revolution only meant
picking up a gun and going out
and murdering somebody.

I never thought that
revolution consisted
of revolutionizing myself...

to get away from the things
that caused me to wanna revolt.

[ Man ] MOVE does not believe
in technology. They use
a wood-burning stove for heat,

and they have no electricity.

But they do have cars,
and they have a telephone. Why?

All the answers
are in the guidelines,
their bible left by John Africa.

[ Man ] Miss Sims,
can you describe for me
what the philosophy of MOVE was?

What did John Africa teach
with regard to the society in
which you found yourself living?

You're asking
what was being taught?

Yes, ma'am.

Okay. Um, the absolute truth.

We were being taught
about this system.

The corruption in this system.

But mainly, it was...
just the absolute truth.

What John Africa did was...
expose the lie in the system.

Uncover it.

Could you describe what you mean
by the word "the system,"
please?

The system.
The establishment. You.

[ Man ]
Philadelphia is a tortured city.

Trash piles up at the curbline.

Kids are afraid
to walk to school.

Abandoned homes
pockmark the ghetto.

Philadelphia needs a strong man
for a tough job.

Philadelphia needs
Frank Rizzo as mayor.

A small,
vocal minority among us...

seeks to destroy
the heritage of 1776.

We must be ever-vigilant
that this minority does not
impose its philosophy...

on the unwilling majority
of Americans.

[ Man ] In their vigilant
effort to maintain close contact
with mother Earth,

the MOVE members are breaking up
the cement of the sidewalk
around their property.

Yeah, life.

[ Mutters ]
But you are not animals.
I mean--

Why not?
I don't want to be personal.

Wait a minute.
Why not?
Yes, why not?

We are animals, because
our reference is no different
than the reference of animals.

There's only one reference,
and that's life.

That's what MOVE is about.
Life. Truth.
That's our religion.

We see John Africa
in the same way
that people saw Jesus Christ...

because of his carpentry,
because of his simple
way of living, and so forth.

Now, we know that
John Africa is a man
who can explain Jesus Christ.

When Reverend Audrey Bronson
wants to practice her religion,
nobody beats her up.

But when MOVE wanted
to practice their religion,

people started talking about,
uh,

"It's not done that way."

There are Catholics and
Methodists, evangelists,
theologians, you name it.

We were the religion of life.

Where is it written
that we could not have
a religion of our own?

Your brother, Vincent Leapheart
was John Africa,
is that correct?

My brother, Vincent Leapheart,
was my brother.

John Africa was the founder
of the MOVE organization.

And they were one
and the same?

I said
my brother was my brother.

And I said John Africa
was the founder of
the MOVE organization.

John-- Vincent Leapheart
is my brother.

[ Man ] When Michael
was about two years of age,
he was taken by his mother...

to a residence
occupied by members of
an organization called MOVE.

And Michael was subsequently
given the name of Birdie Africa.

Michael Ward was, of course,
no more a member of MOVE...

than a child of Republican
or Democratic parents...

would be styled by
a particular party label.

He was throughout,
an absolutely innocent,

guiltless, and under
the circumstances,
vulnerable child and youngster.

** [ Children Singing ]

Now, when you go to school
and you embrace that education,

the very first thing
you are taught in school
is separation--

Is categorization,
alienation, conflict.

You're taught black, white,
blue, green.

Up, down, back, forth.
Taught, uh, Protestant,
Catholic.

Taught Yale, Harvard.
Conflict. War.

You know, if a child does not
know that he is black
and I am white,

if he is not taught
that categorization,

if he is not taught
that separation,

in the place of that,
all he can gravitate to,

all he can know is harmony,
is unity, is love.

[ Children ]
Life! Life!

[ Brown ]

[ Michael ] Some of it.
[ Brown ] Some of it?
What did you like particularly?

Watermelon, mangoes...

and sweet potatoes and onions.

[ Brown ]
And onions.
Did you all eat any meat at all?

Only one time
we ate raw chicken.

[ Brown ] Why would the adults
eat cooked food and the children
not eat cooked food?

Do you know?

[ Michael ]
They said they wasn't
used to raw food.

They weren't used to raw food,
and the children were
used to raw food.

[ Man ]

[ Brown ]
Were you all ever punished
for taking the food or anything?

Yeah. Did they punish you
when you--

They had meetings on us.
They had meetings?

Would they ever
hit the children?

Uh, so you didn't
get any spankings
or anything like that?

They didn't believe in spanking.
They didn't believe
in spankings.

I see. Did you, uh-- When
they holler at the children,
what would the children do?

Cry.
They would cry?

Did they ever
holler at you?
Yes.

Did you cry
when you were hollered at?
Yeah.

Did they--
Did they say they loved you?
Yeah.

Did you love them?

I came in contact with MOVE
back in 1974.

We had a number of rap sessions
with youngsters...

in terms of trying to offer
a different point of view.

Did they appear to you
to be violent at all?

No, it basically appeared
to be a progressive,
uh, political organization...

pretty much concerned
about the issues...

that impacted
on the black community.

[ Lytton ] Officer Cresse,
was there any indication
that you were aware of...

that, uh, the MOVE members
were potentially violent?

Other than being, uh, vocal,
no, sir.

[ Shouting ]

They can put out weird things
like you can hear me
use profanity.

But is it possible to describe
a maniac, a profane, obscene,
pornographic freak...

- [ Cheering ]
- without using profane words?

Motherfuckers!
[ Cheering ]

Do you have information
concerning how many arrests
occurred involving MOVE?

There was 141 demonstrations.

There was 97 court cases.

There was eight meetings,
and there was 193 arrests.

I have as just as much right...

and my brother got just
as much right to speak as you.

So what you doin' arrogantly
gaveling us down?

This is not a forum
for your political views.
What is it?

Do you understand that?
Do you understand
that I was brought here...

because of my beliefs,
because of my views?

I object. I think the witness,
at this point,

is badgering the judge.

They were, in fact,
telling the truth
in the courtroom,

and because the judge
could not dispute it,

because the judge had went
to Harvard and Yale
and Cornell...

to learn what law was.

They could not understand
how a people could stand there,

looking as they did,
but yet knowing more,
in fact, than they did.

And this called
for many contempts,
many beatings in the courtroom.

And it was like a repeat
over and over again.

Officer Cresse, directing
your attention to approximately
March 30 of 1976,

what, if anything occurred
during that time period
with regard to MOVE.

Twenty-four-hour surveillance
was established
at the MOVE compound...

at 309 North 33rd Street.

Around the same time,
was there any, um,

situation that arose
with regard to an infant?

Yes, sir.
Could you describe that, sir?

Okay.

[ Inaudible ]

Just bear with me, please.

[ Papers Shuffling ]

[ Chattering ]

[ Horn Honks ]

[ Man ]
On March 28 of this year,
at about 4:00 in the morning,

some MOVE members were returning
from one of many sentences
in the city jail.

The MOVE people say they weren't
making a lot of noise.

But someone in the neighborhood
complained to the police.

What happened next is
the beginning of a controversy
that has yet to be investigated.

Somehow an argument
led to a scuffle.

Police reinforcements
were quickly on the scene,

and MOVE put up resistance.

By the time it was over,
six policemen reported injuries,

six members
of MOVE were arrested,

and later, it was found that
three-week-old Life Africa,

one of the MOVE babies,
was dead.

[ Screams ]

We went upstairs
to inquire reporters there.

And we saw--
We were led into a dark room,

and we saw what appeared to be
the remains of a baby.

And it was their contention
that this baby had
been killed...

in a police raid.

Subsequent to that,
I introduced the resolution
to the city council,

calling for an investigation.

It never took place.

And I felt at that time
that the MOVE people
were being harassed...

and that it was
a racial problem.

Shortly thereafter,
I received some letters...

from the people who live
on 32nd and Pearl Street.

And they indicated that
they were displeased with MOVE,

and they wanted to meet me.

And I went to the meeting
expecting to see...

mostly Caucasian people
complaining about MOVE.

And I was surprised
when I entered the home...

that most of the people
there were-- were black people,
just ordinary black people.

And for the first time
I realized that it was not
a racial problem with MOVE.

But that it was something else
that I just did not understand.

And then I learned that
unless you did everything
that they wanted you to do,

uh, you were an enemy.

[ Man ]
On May 20, 1977,
MOVE brandished weapons...

from their Powelton Village
headquarters platform...

saying, "No longer
will we be beaten
or intimidated by the police...

without a like response."

[ Lytton ] To your knowledge,
did any of the members
of the MOVE organization...

ever possess any weapons?

- Not to my knowledge.
- Nor mine.

[ Lytton ] Have you ever seen
the pictures of May 20, 1977,
at Powelton Village,

where people are carrying what
appear, at least, to be weapons?
Mm-hmm. Yes, I have.

Were those members
of the MOVE organization?
[ With Mrs. James ] Yes.

Were they weapons?
I don't know.

I don't want anyone to think
that I'm insulting
their intelligence,

but when you have
anything like that,

regardless to
what it looks like,

if it is found
inside of the house...

or not found inside the house
and it is brought out...

and it is found
to be inoperable,

it is found not to work at all,

as far as I'm concerned,
it's not a weapon.

But let me be clear.

This can be a weapon.

But I'm talking about
to the point
of a weapon that can fire.

It's just like you said--
What appeared to be weapons.

In my view, it seemed
to suggest a turning point.

It was the point
which it became clear...

that MOVE, in fact, could
become a violent organization.

Uh, would, in fact, fight,

would, in fact, use weapons
in order to accomplish
their mission.

They named the game.
And I assure you, they lose.

[ Man ]
We'll do what's necessary.

[ Male Interviewer ]
What is that?
The strategy of John Africa.

What is that?
Our only defense.

What is that?
The strategy of John Africa.

You aren't tellin' me anything.
You're just saying
"the strategy of John Africa."

Hey, I wouldn't
tell my strategy to you.
[ Crowd Laughing ]

We ain't talkin' about
hurtin' nobody's religion.

We ain't talkin' about
killin' off nobody's religion.

Rizzo is talkin' about
religious persecution.

Don't question the person
tellin' the truth. Question the
person that's tellin' the lie.

- All right!
- [ Crowd Chatters ]

Only in a democracy
could they get away with
what they're getting away with.

[ Chattering ]

People are people regardless
of their color, their skin,

their religion,
their race or nothin'.

They're still people.
They can bleed. They can die.

They can catch diseases.
We can all go through
the same situations.

It's unnecessary
for all of that.
I really think it's unnecessary.

And it's all going to boil down
to a bunch of people getting
hurt and killed over nothin'.

Over nothin' that doesn't really
make any sense.

At 6:10 a.m.,
Mayor Rizzo finally, after
15 months of confrontation,

used the force
he threatened all along.

[ Rizzo ] The police will
be in there to drag them out
by the backs of their necks.

They're going to be taken
by force if they resist.

[ Man ] If police come in there
with their hands,
we'll use our hands.

If they come in here with clubs,
we'll use clubs.

But if they come in here
shootin' and killin' our women
and children and our men,

we will shoot back
in defense of our lives.

I've learned one thing
as a policeman. You never
underestimate your opponent.

You always get in there faster
with more than is necessary,
and you overpower them.

[ Man On Megaphone ]

[ Man Narrating ]
Stakeout personnel,
using body shields,

cover fireman as they
position a portable deluge gun
closer to the compound.

[ Helicopter Whirring ]

[ Gunfire ]

[ Man Shouts ]
Shots have been fired!

[ Narrator ]
Officers and firemen
are wounded by gunfire.

First deluge gun
goes out of control.

[ Gunfire Continues ]

Other officers and firemen
move in to pull
the wounded personnel...

out of the line of fire.

Officer Ramp, shown here
lying on his back,

has now been mortally wounded.

Officer Hesson, also wounded,

crawls over and attempts
to shield Officer Ramp.

[ Woman ]
Mr. Rendell, um,

did you consider
the MOVE organization
to be a terrorist group?

They had demonstrated
a past history of violence.

Uh, they had demonstrated
a willingness to use
violence, force...

or the threat
of violence or force
to achieve their objectives.

It was almost difficult,
if not well nigh impossible,

to deal with them
in any rational basis...

that their stated goals
as a group...

that was a back-to-nature group
were, frankly, a bunch of bull.

People who have
killed one person,

injured several others,
people who threaten to blow up
people's houses,

people who threaten to shoot
and kill neighbors, police,
elected officials--

I think that's
a pretty adequate description
of the word "terrorist."

With every step of the way,
including the final act today,

the police used commendable
restraint, uh, and it was done
for many reasons.

Most of all because of the
children who are present today.

[ Woman ]
There had been much concern
on the part of many people...

that the police would make
a violent assault
on the MOVE members.

As it turned out,
the police acted
with precision and restraint.

[ Man ]
When one of the MOVE members
came out of the window...

with a cartridge case
in one hand,

a clip and with a knife
in the other,

he was hit
on the top of the head
with a steel helmet...

and was taken into custody.

That's what you're referring to.

[ Shouting ]

[ Man At Scene ]
He's hittin' him.
He's hittin' him.

Hittin' him on the head.
Kickin' him on the head!

[ Man #2 ]
I have no idea. I couldn't see.

Cops, you're makin' a mistake
doin' that.
Your ass they are.

The police probably
would have been legally
within their rights...

to have killed all of
the 12 people in that basement.

[ Woman ]
Do you believe
this is a symbolic gesture,

tearing their house down
at this point,
the very day of the shootout?

[ Man ] I think behind it
is the question
we gotta ask is why.

There's a suspicion
that some shots
had come from elsewhere.

Walt Hunter from WCAU, by
the way, swears that a shot was
fired going in this direction.

[ Man ]
People who know us
know that we're not terrorists.

We fight cops because
they're dirty. They're filthy.
They're criminal.

[ Rizzo ] The sad part
of it is that this incident
is not yet over.

There will still be misguided
voices in the community...

seeking clemency
for these criminals.

[ Together ]
Long live MOVE!
Long live revolution!

Long live John Africa!
[ Woman ]
It's the MOVE organization.

[ Man ]
What they should have done
is shot that goddamn bum,

and then there would have been
no trouble today.

This police department
in Philadelphia
could invade Cuba and win.

What I'm saying, Tom Snyder,
is that we are now trained
and equipped to fight wars.

[ Chanting ]
Four more years, hell no!
No more Rizzo! Got to go!

Four more years, hell no!
No more Rizzo! Got to go!

Four more years, hell no!

[ Crowd Cheering ]

All of us,
from all neighborhoods...

from all walks of life...

can solve the problem
facing our city.

[ Man ]
Leapheart was asked how he felt
when the verdict was read.

What are your plans
in terms of
staying in Philadelphia...

and trying to continue
the MOVE cult?

It's not a cult.
It's an organization.

When you appear
to be different...

you become angry,

and you will do things
out of the norm.

[ Brown ]
Did you ever think
about leaving MOVE?

Yeah.

Uh, when was that?
A long time ago.

A long time ago?
Why did you want to leave MOVE?

'Cause we couldn't do
what other kids do.

You couldn't do
what the other kids did?

Uh, what were the other children
allowed to do who were outside
of MOVE that you couldn't do?

[ Michael ]
Uh, play with toys and stuff
and ride bikes and watch TV.

Did you tell anyone
that you wanted to leave?

Who'd you tell?

Oh, we told--
We told each other.

[ Man ]
This is
a blue-collar neighborhood.

And any given summer day
you have the children,

uh, playing in the streets.

You have a mother
maybe sitting on the steps.

Neighbors talking to each other.

And all of a sudden
on their loudspeaker,

you'd hear a voice
would come out and say,

"You motherfuckers.
What the fuck
are you doin' out here now?

Do you know
what's going on here?

You son of a bitches around here
fuckin' everybody up.

What the fuck is goin' on?"

Anything that was vile,
they would go into it.

The filth-- It was-- It was...

unbelievable
that something like this
could be in someone's mind.

It's one thing to be
two blocks away and hear it.

But to live right next door,
full blast in our bedroom.

I watched my wife many nights
lay there in that bed and cry.

Wasn't nothin' else
she could do.

I think that, uh,
what we really hoped for...

was that some kind of way...

the city would find a way
to deal with the situation.

The only thing that
was happening is that MOVE
was taking a stand...

against the injustice
that has been dropped on them...

by this administration
and the Rizzo administration.

MOVE's principle
has never changed.

MOVE's mood-- I'm talking
about bitterness now--

did change.

[ Shouting Through Megaphone,
Indistinct ]

[ Swans ]
They made, in my view,
a conscious decision...

to aggravate residents to
the point was that the residents
would, in fact,

demand for the city
to take actions
to provide them with relief.

And in that regard,
the city would be forced
into doing one of two things--

to engage in confrontation
or to engage in compromise.

There was a lot of hostility
between those two entities.

I think it must be researched
why the hostility was there.

[ Brown ]
Which two entities, Mr. Bond?

Uh, the city of Philadelphia
and the MOVE organization.

And as a pawn,
we were caught in-between.

And nobody, frankly,
gave a damn.

I met with 15 residents,
uh, of Osage Avenue...

on Memorial Day, 1984.

At that meeting,
I said to them...

that I will research
as to whether or not
there is a legal basis,

uh, for the city to do something
about the problem that
you have brought to us.

But also pointed out to them...

that the mayor
does not have the authority...

because he does not like,
or the neighbors do not like,

the way someone live...

to simply go in and evict
the people from their house.

We don't have those kinds
of options in this democracy.

[ Siren Wailing ]

[ Men ] Today, more than three
dozen Philadelphia policemen
surrounded the building...

after a MOVE member was spotted
on the roof wearing a hooded
mask and carrying a shotgun.

That standoff
lasted less than two hours.

Police did not enter the house,
and no arrests were made.

In the last several weeks,
their actions have escalated
tensions in the neighborhood...

leading to tonight's situation.

When the individual
was on the roof
with the mask and the shotgun,

my daughter was
in our picture window.

And she said, "Daddy, what is
the man doing on top of the roof
with a gun?"

And I didn't have an answer.

She asked, "Isn't that
against the law?"

And I said yes.

Well, I don't know how you
can say that for a certain group
of people, the law applies...

and then
another group of people,
that same law doesn't apply.

I think we were in the law
on an equal basis,
if I'm correct.

You would see them dragging logs
from the park up the street.

You could see that the line
in the street...

from, I guess,
the oil out of the trees
that they would drag up.

Wood would be stacked up
in front of the house at 6221.

There was so much of it
that we requested that they...

do something with it.

[ Lytton ]
What was the response
to that request?

They responded
and put it on top of the roof.

We used to play on the roof.
[ Brown ] You used to
play on the roof a lot?

[ Michael ]
A lot of times.

- Now, you said something
about a bunker.
- [ Michael ] Mm-hmm.

How many bunkers were there
on the roof?

Two.
Two?

And do you know
what they were made of?

[ Michael ]

[ Brown ]
What kind of holes
did they have in the bunkers?

Like the bunker was halfway
over the roof like this,
and you could look down.

You could see up the street
in the-- all over.

Do you know what
those holes were for?

That bunker you see there is
kind of a toyish-looking thing,

and I will tell you
on Osage Avenue,
it commanded the scene.

It overlooked
and overpowered anything
you may-- you can imagine.

It was awesome.

[ Man ]
There's been talk that there
are explosives in this house.

Uh, is there any truth to that?

That's only people's,
you know, hallucination...

because they have
not been inside this house.

So they would not know
what is in this house.

What is in this house is
the strategy of John Africa
that is very explosive.

Is it a confrontation?
It most certainly
is a confrontation,

one strategized by John Africa
years and years and years ago.

[ Lytton ]
Commissioner, could you tell us
what the lessons were...

that you felt were learned
in the 1978 confrontation
from your point of view?

From my point of view, sir,
was that MOVE was a group...

who was bent
by virtue of their dogma
and by their actions...

of destroying
civilized activity...

and ability to live in
a neighborhood peacefully.

Tonight, there are
growing concerns about
the controversial group, MOVE.

City officials met today
for the second straight day
to discuss strategy.

Sources reveal that
Philadelphia's District Attorney
has now prepared the warrants...

that are legally necessary
to evict MOVE members
from their home.

Once those warrants are signed
by a judge,

action by police
to evict MOVE could come
at pretty much any time.

Do you know a police officer
by the name of Delores Thompson?

Yes, I do.

Do you recall telling her
that your son Frank
was ordered to attack you,

that you were beaten until
you started to vomit violently,

that Frank then placed a pillow
over your face...

and asked John Africa
if he wanted you
to be cycled or killed...

and that John Africa replied,
"Not at this time"?

Did she tell you
that I said that?

I have her report of
that conversation, Mrs. James.
Okay.

Well, if she--
Were you satisfied
with what she said?

I'm asking you.
Okay.

I heard rumors to the effect
that my son had beaten me.

I've also heard rumors
to the effect that Wilson Goode
put his wife's jaw on a pulley,

that he beat
the hell out of her.

Will you ask Mayor Goode
that when he comes in here
if he in fact beat his wife?

And if not, why not?

If it is relevant
that my son beat me or
whether or not he did beat me,

then I would say it is just as
relevant for you to ask Wilson
Goode when he comes in here,

"Did he beat his wife?"

I don't think you're gonna
ask him that.

I really don't. But you should,
if you feel that it is relevant.

Mr. Lytton, I just want to
make it clear in my mind
so that I understand.

Am I to assume that the bomb
was dropped on MOVE people...

because Frank beat his mother?

Ma'am, we're trying
to find out what happened,

- and we'll continue
asking questions.
- [ Sims ] Oh. Okay.

Of course, on Mother's Day,
the evacuation has been slow.

People had plans for today.

A few had decided that
they'd stay and not evacuate.

But police have now apparently
advised those people that they
think it's best that they leave.

I hope that
it's resolved quickly...

and have all confidence that
the mayor's going to be
doing the right thing.

I wouldn't mind staying myself,
you see.

But I was told to leave...

just 'cause he don't know what
the extent of this is going
to be, you know.

[ Man ]
What do you think?

I think-- Believe it or not,
I think you'll have to kill
all of them.

[ Woman ]
And neighbors
have been told by police...

not to return
to their homes for 24 hours.

That's 10:00 tomorrow night.

Now, what will happen
between now and then
remains to be seen, Charles.

And, Casey, some of the
neighbors, as they were
leaving, said to me...

that as they were going,
leaving the neighborhood,

the MOVE people were sitting out
in front of the MOVE house,

the children in hand.

Perhaps that was a subtle
or not-so-subtle indication
of what's happening here.

[ Lytton ]
Did you consider, sir,
that at least in 1978,

the members of the
MOVE organization who were at
the Powelton Village house...

had used their children, uh,
as if they were hostages?

No, sir, I did not.

[ Lytton ] You've said
they came out holding
their children up as shields.

Uh, I'm not an expert
in police science,

but I think to the layman,

that might suggest that
they were using their children
as a hostage.

That's why I'm asking you
why you did not consider that.

They were using them
simply as a ploy...

and using that philosophy--

that feeling that we had
for the sanctity of children...

and everyone else--
to our disadvantage.

I do not want to wake up
tomorrow morning
and find myself short one son...

because if this thing kicks off,
you're going to have bodies
strewn every which way.

You're going to have
children killed, and you're
going to have adults killed.

I am very much afraid
you're going to have
blood-soaked streets.

Every one of us knew that
there was an extraordinarily
high likelihood...

that someone was going to die.

We didn't know whether
it was going to be a policeman.

We didn't know whether
it was going to be a fireman.

We didn't know whether it was
going to be a MOVE member.

The worse dread of all was
that it was going to be a child
or a neighbor or a bystander.

I don't know if anyone
on this panel has ever had
the responsibility...

of saying "go"
to a plan that you know
is going to cost human lives.

Until you've done that,
it's very difficult to gauge...

whether the city officials
were right or wrong
in what they did.

Did you all have meetings
where you would discuss
what to do if the police came?

Mm-mmm. Not us.

Not the children?
How about the adults?

How about the grown-ups?

They used to be upstairs
by theirself when
they had their meetings.

When they had their meetings?

How often
would they have their meetings?

A lot of times.
A lot of times?

Did you ever sit in on--
Were you ever
in any of their meetings?

Do you ever know what
went on in those meetings?

Mm-mmm.

What is a confrontation?
Do you know?

Like it was.

But what happens
when you have a confrontation?

When the cops come and stuff.

What did you believe
they might have had by way
of firearms in that house?

We were led to believe that
they had automatic firearms.

Shotguns.

I guess just as well
as equipped as we were.

Mm-hmm.

And so based on
what you believed they had,
then you went prepared to match?

- To match or better than.
- Or to have superior?

That's correct, sir.

[ Man ]
We interrupt regular programming
for this special report.

I'm Dennis Woltering
with Harvey Clarke
at 62nd and Vine...

where authorities
continue preparations...

for an apparent confrontation
with the radical group, MOVE.

Let me tell you what's happened
so far this morning.

About two hours ago,
about 3:30 a.m.,

utility crews
moved into the area,
shut off gas and electricity.

SWAT teams have been
converging on the area.

You can see a fire truck
behind me with a deluge gun
pointed back that way.

It's aimed, apparently,
at the MOVE house.

It looks like the scene is set.

[ Sambor ]
I got on my stomach,

and with the bullhorn,
I read the message.

And to be quite frank,
I was sweating it out.

[ Brown ]
What did Commissioner Sambor
say, do you know?

He was telling them to come out.

Did you hear him saying that?

[ Man ]
What was the response
of the MOVE organization...

when you read the arrest warrant
that they vacate the premises?

That they would not surrender.

- Can you tell us
what else they said?
- That they would kill us all.

And what else did they say?

Uh, they said that, uh--

that all of our wives
would be widows.

And what else did they say
about your wives?

They said that our wives
would be sleeping with other men
before the end of the day.

Did they describe
what other kind of men?
Yes, sir.

Would you tell us?

They said that our wives
would be sleeping with black men
before the end of the day.

Do you recall
what your reaction
was to those statements?

I accepted it, sir,
as some of their rhetoric...

and attempts
to incite the police and myself
to precipitous action.

The police went in
about five minutes to 6:00.

Just four minutes ago,
they pumped tear gas in...

which is in the area.

The police began a deluge,
which you can see here.

That water's actually
being pumped in...

about, probably, 50 yards
into the MOVE compound.

As you can see up the street,
Tom, if you just pan up there,

it's a very surreal
kind of scene.

Very calm men standing around...

as the cloud of tear gas,
the haze,
kind of begins to lift.

Here comes some more tear gas
down Addison Street.

This apparently has expanded...

to include the entire
square block.

Perhaps when the cloud clears,
we'll know a little bit more.

What was the plan
for May 13, 1985?

The tactical plan,
as I understood it,

was to remove the MOVE people--
all the people--

from the house safely.

That was the objective.

It was to be done by causing
a diversion on the roof,

inserting the insertion teams
on either side
of the properties...

and by then inducing
an amount of C.S. gas...

in a sufficient concentration...

to make those people
come out of the house.

The police presence here is
not like it was the last time.

This is being handled almost
entirely by the stakeout unit.

- [ Gunshot ]
- There may have
just been a gunshot.

The gunshots are starting
right now.

- [ Gunfire ]
- It sounds like automatic fire.
There's quite a bit of it.

We can't tell, Steve,
at this point exactly where
the gunfire is coming from.

[ Men Chattering ]

Okay. Steve,
at this point we're being forced
to leave our position.

We'll get back to you
as soon as we can.
Let's go.

The police
are now moving Harvey Clarke.

- [ Lytton ]
Who shot first?
- They did.

How do you know?
Because I was there.

I understand that.
Did you see muzzle fire?

I'm just trying to determine
how you have that knowledge.
No, sir, I did not.

But one of the other teams
reported that they were
receiving hostile fire.

- Did it sound like
automatic fire to you?
- It did. Yes, sir.

And I take it you're familiar
with the sound of
automatic weapons fire.

I've heard automatic--
Yes, sir.

Pat, as you can see, we have
reestablished our live signal.

Tremendous bursts of gunfire
have rang out...

in the area of
the 6200 block of Osage Avenue.

Walt Hunter has joined me.
And, Walter,
what have you learned?

We have heard
several popping sounds here...

indicating that gunfire
is getting much, much closer.

But we don't know if the guns
you're hearing are police guns,
MOVE guns or other guns.

About the only thing
we can confirm for you
at this point...

is that clearly, based on
the nature of the shoot-out
we're seeing here this morning,

MOVE did have some weaponry
either in the house or nearby.

[ Lytton ]
As you know, Commissioner,

there were no automatic weapons
found in the MOVE house.

Do you know whether or not
the automatic weapons fire
you heard...

was in fact
from police officers?

The firing,
as initiated by MOVE,

uh, was...

apparently automatic fire,

and I cannot explain it.

But I do not believe
for one minute...

that it was the police
that were firing at that time.

Once the MOVE members
started firing,

their status changed radically
in the eyes of the law.

They at that point
became forcible felons,

and there's a whole
different set of laws...

as to the apprehension
and the amount of force
that can be used...

in the apprehension of
and the prevention of
the escape of forcible felons.

- Including the children?
- No.

That's as to the adults.

We went downstairs.

[ Brown ]
Did the adults tell you
to go downstairs?

And where did you go
when you went downstairs?

The garage.
Into the garage?

- But where were the men?
- They were upstairs.

Do you know
what they were doing?

[ Woman ]
Now, we know that the children
wasn't doing any shooting.

Do you feel that their rights--
I did not know that the children
were not shooting.

What-- Would you say
that if we had children in there
four, five, six years old...

that they would have been using
any type of weapons?

To my knowledge,
there was only one that young.

We would like to tell you
that the shoot-out is over.
We cannot say that definitively.

We can say there's been at least
a 15- or 20-minute break
in the gunfights.

Here comes a police car
racing in right now
at this moment.

This is a highway patrol car
racing into the scene.

We don't know
what this signifies.

We'd like to tell you it's over.
We really can't right now.
There has been a pause.

There are indications
that what has been
a tremendous gunfight is over.

Looking in the trunk of this car
right here--

[ Gunfire ]
There's more gunfire right now.
We're gonna crouch down.

As you were about to say,
the police are unloading,
as you can see right now.

The police are unloading
Winchester cartridge shells...

from the back
of a highway patrol car.

Do you know how many rounds
were fired that day?

[ Sambor ]
No, sir.

But I will say that, uh--
uh, we ran out.

Uh, we did not anticipate,

uh, the extent
of the confrontation,

uh, and ran out.

Uh, I don't know
what time it was, but it was
some time in the morning.

What's happening is,
it's a shoot-out.

- Oh, man,
and those kids and all that--
- [ Gunshots ]

The gunfire is as close
as it's been since the shoot-out
happened this morning.

Let's-- Let's come closer.

Let's come closer and use--
and crouch down behind
the Eyewitness News truck.

[ Woman ]
Oh, my God!

[ Man ]
Get down, lady. Get down. Yeah.

[ Gunfire Continues ]

[ Man ]
Stay in the house.
Stay inside.

I heard shots being fired,
and cops was in the alleyway.

They was like,
"Get in the house.
Don't come out."

I was very, very frightened.

You supposed
to nip something in the bud.

If you see something's coming,
you're supposed to sit down
and try to iron it out...

before something like this
comes to this stage.

It's war. This is war.

I've never seen it,
but I've lived through it today.

[ Harvey ]
This woman--
We can't determine...

whether she is a relative of one
of the MOVE members or not.

It appeared that things
had gotten calm.

And then as you heard,
about a minute and a half ago,
another burst of gunfire.

[ Walt ]
This woman is now being taken
into police custody.

You're watching it live.
They are restraining her.

She is hysterical
and is clearly upset about
what's going on in there.

Just trying to get her
out of the danger area where
we are on the fringes right now.

[ Lytton ]
Did you have a concern...

that the people
inside of that house...

might be in physical danger
or that their lives
might be in danger?

Concern?
We knew it.

Miss--
We-- Excuse me.

We had--
You had 200 boot-kicking,

Gestapo-oriented cops
out there that day.

You had, that day,
a police officer
by the name of Mulvihill...

who was in the 1978,
uh, tragedy...

who was, in fact,
one of the officers
who stomped and kicked...

and beat and bludgeoned...

and shot and helmeted
and kicked some more...

my brother, Delbert Africa.

So as I understand
your testimony,

you were concerned
that there may be
physical harm...

to the people inside that house,
is that correct?

Would you turn up
your hearing aid, please?

I can hear you fine, Mrs. James.

My question is--
Well, then
if you can hear me fine,

if you don't have a hearing aid,
I suggest you get one.

Well, because--
Excuse me!

Yes, ma'am.

To ask me...

"were we concerned"
is complete insanity.

[ Sambor ]
By virtue of the fact that MOVE
had construction on the roof...

that was commonly
referred to as the bunker,

that gave them complete command
of the Osage Avenue,

access over the roofs--

they were in
an enviable tactical position.

[ Man ]
The water cannon used during
the MOVE standoff today...

shoots an estimated
1,000 gallons of water a minute.

Sources say the purpose
of the water is threefold--

First, to disorient
the people inside the house.

Secondly, the water
increases humidity, which makes
tear gas more effective.

Thirdly, the powerful
water pressure could
cause the house to collapse.

If that plan relied solely
on the ability of our equipment
to knock the bunker off,

they knew very clearly up front
that we could not guarantee
that, sir.

Chris, I saw Police Commissioner
Gregore Sambor about
45 minutes ago,

and he described his men
as, quote, "taking a break now."

They're obviously
somewhat startled...

by the way that MOVE's building
at 62 and Osage was fortified...

and able to take the
water barrage and the bullets
that flew in there this morning.

Thousands of rounds spun off.

[ Harvey ] Larry,
for the first time, it's been
quiet for several hours here.

The police helicopter
did go back up,

and I guess
they wanted to take a look
at the top of the bunker.

We had reports-- What you see
in front there, the yellow tarp
is the front of that building,

and we were told that
that bunker was destroyed.

But it appears
that it's still there.

Okay, Harvey. They stopped
the snorkel gun now.

There's no water on that roof.
For some time,
the water has been turned off.

[ Man ]
At City Hall this afternoon,

Mayor Goode appeared
publicly for the first time
since the siege began.

Goode said he's committed
to removing MOVE
from the structure.

We intend
to evict from the house.

We intend to evacuate
from the house, and we intend
to seize control of the house.

[ Woman ] How will you do that?
We will do it
by any means necessary.

[ Woman ]
Something is starting to happen.

There is a big--
The fire engine
has fired up again.

Its engine is on for
the first time all afternoon.

We just saw some
police officers behind us have
their hands over their ears.

We don't know why.
We can't hear anything
at this point.

I must say that this tiny
little flurry of activity...

is really the first bit
of activity that there's been
here all afternoon.

It's been very quiet.

Police say that they have
a plan. They say it will
be implemented shortly.

We will tell you what it is
when it happens.

Reporting live from 62nd and
Delancey, this is Chris Wagner,
Channel 6 Action News.

[ Woman ]
This device that was used--
You're calling it a device.

I'm calling it a bomb.
But did it ever occur to you...

that this might have
been a dangerous device to use
in a residential neighborhood?

Yes, ma'am.

It did occur to you?
Yes, ma'am.

[ Lytton ]
By not vetoing it,

did you approve the plan
to use an explosive on the roof?

I think that I was fully aware
that it would, in fact, be used,

and it is my view
that you can regard that...

as an approval of using
the explosive on the roof, yes.

...right there in a 10-15 foot
hover above the roof.

And I was right on the left-hand
side of the helicopter
right here.

Onto this corner is where
I finally came to a stop.

[ Brown ]
You were down in the garage,
is that right?

We was down there for a while,
and then everybody came down.

- All the men came down?
- That's when
the big bomb went off.

It shook the whole house up.

[ Explosion ]

[ Chris ]
Police say there has just been
a huge explosion here.

We don't know what it means,
but it just shook
the whole place.

Debris flew all over the place.
I don't know what
that explosion was.

All I can tell you
is that it was a huge blast.

[ Harvey ]
Get a shot with me.
Get a sh--

Harvey, can you hear us?
At this point, I really
can't tell you very much.

There was about
a 15-second delay,
then an explosion.

[ Walt ] Perhaps
the most frightening thing here
is that police do say...

that six to eight children
are believed to be
inside the MOVE house.

As soon as we find out
what the explosion is,
we will try to tell you.

At this point,
I simply do not know.

[ Lytton ] After the explosion,
you saw that the bunker
was still there.
Yes, sir.

- Did you observe any smoke
or fire on the roof?
- I did not.

And--
I did hear over the radio
that there was none.

It's easy to equate explosions
and explosive materials
with fire.

But that's not necessarily so.

'Cause I think we've
all seen buildings demolished,

and it's used
all the time in mining.

So I don't think you
can just logically conclude...

if you're going to
have an explosion,
you're going to have a fire.

There's no more smoke.
And at this point,
looking over my shoulder,

the water barrage appears
to have ended again.

Okay, there is a new development
at the MOVE building,
62nd and Osage.

We'll go live right away
to Harvey Clarke at the scene.

What's going on, Harvey?
Larry, behind me you can
probably see right now--

We'll push and try to get
a little tighter shot of it--

that the satchel charge,
or whatever--
the explosive or bomb...

that was dropped
on the MOVE compound
just a few minutes ago...

has apparently started
a serious fire.

But the two deluge guns
or sprinklers...

that they've been pumping water
in from Pine Street
are not active now.

I wanted to get the bunker.

I wanted to be able to somehow
have tactical superiority...

without sacrificing any lives,
if it were at all possible.

Commissioner Sambor said to me--

He said
let's let the bunker burn...

to eliminate that high ground
advantage and the tactical
advantage of the bunker.

And I said, "Yeah, okay."

[ Sambor ]
It was not an order.

In essence, in communication--

I communicated to him that
I would like to
let the fire burn.

Larry, this is becoming
a very emotional scene.

With me is Janice Walker.

She lives at 6217 Osage,

just two doors
from the MOVE house.
Yes.

And you're afraid
that your house may be on fire.

I'm sure it's just destroyed,
and it's just not fair.

We've been there over 20 years,
and we didn't have to have
to go through this.

[ Man ] We only left
with a few odds and ends,
you know, for the night.

We had no idea it was
gonna be this devastating.

You've got innocent people
that live around there
on Osage Avenue,

and they just, you know--

Their properties have just
gone up in smoke.

I saw initially
a small fire on the roof.

I saw what appeared...

to be some water coming in.

I determined later that
that was not water at all...

but was basically
the kind of snow
on my television screen.

And after about five minutes
of watching that,

I gave what was
my first order of the day,

which was "put the fire out."

You are aware that
the mayor has testified...

that at approximately 6:00
on the evening of May 13,

he ordered
that the fire be put out.

I heard the testimony, yes, sir.

Do you know whether or not...

there had been any order
to put the fire out?

Yes, sir.

Did you convey that order
to anyone else?
Yes, sir.

- To whom?
- The fire commissioner
was still there.

Question: To whom?

Answer:
The fire commissioner
was still there.

Those responses were
Commissioner Sambor, sir?
Yes, sir.

I categorically deny that.

I had no knowledge of an order
to extinguish that fire.

[ Brown ] Was there any smoke
or tear gas in the garage
when you were down there?

Or was there tear gas?
It was smoke and tear gas.

Smoke and tear gas?

Did it bother you? Did it
burn your eyes or anything?
Mm-hmm.

And what did you all do?

We was under the blanket
with our heads.

Were all the kids
under blankets?
Mm-hmm.

Where were the women?
Under blankets.

They were under blankets?
Now, you said the blankets
were wet.

Mm-hmm.

How did the blankets
get wet?
'Cause we had 'em in the bucket.

Bucket of water.

Isn't it true,
Commissioner Sambor
and Fire Commissioner Richmond,

that you in effect
made a decision to use fire
as a weapon in this instance?

Absolutely not, sir.

Well, you made a decision
to let that fire burn
until the bunker was destroyed.

Isn't that right?
When you talk
about a weapon,

you talk about a weapon
as being used against
probably individuals,

and that was never
a consideration, nor would I
ever use it as a consideration.

Well,
Fire Commissioner Richmond,

what did you understand
the police commissioner
was asking you to do?

I would respond in the same way,
Justice Kaufmann.

There is no one that I know
in city government...

that would intentionally
go out there
to burn those people like that.

There's no one that I know of
could do that.

You were aware in 1978,
I assume,

that a situation
had developed...

involving
certain police officers
and Delbert Africa?

Yes, sir.

Did you give any instructions...

as to whether or not the
officers who were specifically
involved in that altercation...

should or should not be
included in the operation
for May 13, 1985?

I did not.

Weren't you concerned that there
might be some revenge motive...

which may take the police action
beyond the legal limits?

I think there's no question
there was,

at least on the part
of some policemen,
residual anger...

towards MOVE organization
or members thereof--

No question about that.

[ Lytton ]
Would the court reporter
please swear in the witnesses?

Do you solemnly swear to
tell the truth, the whole truth
and nothing but the truth...

so help you God?
[ Both ]
I do.

Officer D'Ulisse,
I understand that in 1978,
you were present on August 8...

during an altercation that
occurred with Delbert Africa.

Yes.

And Officer Mulvihill?

What does that have to do
with May the 13th?

The officer was tried and found
not guilty of that offense.

That was going to be
my next statement, Mr. Mozenter.

Officer, we understand
that you were charged
in connection with that case,

and also we understand that
there was a direct verdict...

by Judge DiBona
of not guilty in that case.

Is that correct?
That's correct.

[ Man ] Stakeout police
have just taken position.

There must be movement
somewhere in the Osage,

and they're all scattering
between 62nd and Osage and 63rd.

They're running around like
something's going on
around here.

[ Man ]
These are live pictures. They
are looking for something there.

[ Harvey ]
You can hear hollering.

Where it was coming from,
Larry, I don't know.

[ Michael ]
When the fire got real heavy,

when we smelled all that smoke,
and we couldn't breathe,

then that's when we started
yelling that "kids coming out,"

and then
they opened the garage door
and opened the cellar window.

[ Brown ]
What did you say?
What did you yell?

We were saying,
"We wanna come out!"

"We wanna come out"?

And what did
the other children do?
Did they do the same thing?

Yeah.

Were any
of the children crying?
Yeah. We all was.

Why had you all gone
to the back alley?

To prevent
the escape of MOVE members.

Well, what did you expect
to find in that alley,

the reason why you took
a machine gun back there?

I had no idea what to expect
in the alley.

[ Man ]
Do you solemnly swear
to tell the truth...

and nothing but the truth
so help you God?
[ Officers ] I do.

Your vantage point
was to the back of 6221.

Is that correct?
Yes.

All right.
Was there any time...

that you observed either
with your eyes or your ears...

people attempting
to come out of that house?

I heard a female scream,
"Don't shoot. We're coming out."

At that time Officer Trudel
who was at the rear window--

Officer Trudel said,
"They're coming out."

If you look carefully,
by the way--

If you can take a look so
I can point to the monitor here,

right here is a line
of stakeout squad officers,

and they seem
to be lined up at the ready
waiting for something to happen.

They seem to be waiting
for something to
come out of that house.

[ Lytton ]
You said that Rad
tried to take Tomaso out?

Mm-hmm.

He was on his knees,
and he had Tomaso
around his stomach like that.

On his knees?
Was he crawling
along the garage floor?

Rad was.

[ Trudel ] Now,
when they did come out, I see
the smaller child come out,

and then an adult male
come out right behind them.

Yeah.
And he stood up...

and aimed a rifle
up in the direction
of Officer Bariana's position...

and fired, like,
four or five quick shots.

Did Conrad
have a rifle or a gun...

when he went
out the garage door?

Mm-mmm.

What did he use
to open the bolt on the door?

A big monkey wrench.

A big monkey wrench?

Are you certain it was a rifle
and not a monkey wrench
or something of that nature?

No, sir. When this--
I know a rifle, believe me.

And when this male
pointed this rifle up,

I-- In other words,
I could hear sound
and see muzzle flashes.

Now, you say
that some shooting started.
Did you hear shooting?

It was a--
[ Imitating Gunfire ]

Like it was just going after--

Like it was going--
Bullets were going
after each other. Like--

Bullets were going
one right after the other.
[ Imitating Gunfire ]

Something like that?
Yeah.

Sergeant Griffiths, could you
just by rapping on the table...

indicate the sound the best
you can recall of those shots?

It was not automatic fire,
if that's what you're asking.

Okay, could you just try
and indicate for me
what it sounded like?

[ Tapping Three Times ]

Did you ever fire your weapons
after the bomb was dropped,
Officer Mulvihill?

No, sir.

Officer D'Ulisse?
No, sir.

He had two officers
taking him out, and then
they started shooting again,

and then they brought him
back in, and then
they locked the thing back up.

Did you see the child
actually go back into the house?

[ Trudel ]
I believe the child
went back into the house.

All right.

Do you have any idea
why that person may have
gone back into the fire?

My own idea? What I think?

Yes.

I just think
they went back into that fire...

sort of to regroup.

Well,

just as a human being myself...

I'm just trying
to imagine myself
in that situation...

and behind me
there's a raging inferno...

and in front of me
there are people
who are saying "come on out."

I'm trying to imagine...

what would cause me to turn back
and run into the fire.

I don't think we said anything
other than come down to us.

Come on down
with your hands up--

the normal police jargon
for calling the suspects
to come down.

Mm-hmm.

I'm just saying that
I'm trying to put myself
in that person's skin.

Sir, I don't think
you ever could.
These were MOVE members.

Well, you see,

I knew a lot of those people...

as individuals
and as human beings.

A lot of people know MOVE
from what they may have seen.

But I had
a lot of dealings with them,

and I knew them to be more
than MOVE people.

I knew many of them by name,
as human beings.

It's probably
a rhetorical question.

I don't think you--
From the way you've responded,

I don't think
you can answer that.

No, sir.

And then
what happened to Tomaso?

Rhonda was going like this
on his back.
[ Tapping ]

Rhonda had Tomaso?
Mm-hmm.

And she was hitting him
on his back?

Was he crying then?

He had stopped crying?

Did you hear him cry anymore...

after she was trying to pat him
and hit him on his back?

Only one time.

And then what happened?
He stopped.

He stopped?

And then what happened?

I didn't hear nobody,
and I just ran out of there.

[ Sirens Wailing ]
[ Harvey ]
Oh, my goodness.

Well, Larry,

the flames are probably
now leaping, um--

uh, 10 stories high.

It just looked like something
was completely engulfed.
What you're seeing now--

[ Larry ]
You're telling me that
the flames are now leaping high?

I remember Ramona coming
from the rear of the MOVE yard
over the fence and down.

She had started
to walk down, stopped.

And she would wave
with her hand like this.

And then I see Birdie.

The way I describe it,
it looked like he literally
came through the fire.

There was a board on fire there,

and he hopped over that
and he started coming down.

What did you see when
you first ran out of the house?

I saw fire and stuff.

You saw fire?
Where did you see the fire?

The tree was on fire,
and the house was.

And the house was on fire?
How about on the ground? Was
anything on the ground on fire?

The pieces of the tree
was falling down.

Pieces of fire from the tree
were falling down?

Did the adults
tell you what to do
if you all got out of the house?

They told us to stay together.

[ Berghaier ]
Ramona's up top.

[ Lytton ] She's on the walkway,
the elevated walkway?
That's right.

Birdie's in the driveway.

Now, as they're coming down,
Ramona's a little bit
in the front.

But at one time
does Ramona stop...

and she goes over to the railing
and reached over
and tried to pick Birdie up.

He got I believe one foot,
maybe two-- I don't know--

on the bottom
of the concrete wall
where the fence meets.

Okay?

And she either let go
or slipped or whatever.

But Birdie fell back.
He went back.

And I remember he didn't get
a chance to put his hands down
to break his fall.

The impression I was left with--
He landed square on his head.

If you're watching somebody
or somebody falls...

and you hear a thud,

you can almost feel it.

That's the same sensation
I think we all got--

that we knew Birdie
was hurt at this time.

It was an actual feeling.
We could all feel it.

[ Helicopter Whirring ]

I remember Birdie
just laying there,
not doing anything.

I said, "Tommy, here.
Take my shotgun." I said,
"I'm gonna go get the kid."

And I remember him saying to me,
"I'll cover you."

- [ Lytton ]
Officer Mellor saying that?
- That's right.

At one point
did I start out to get Birdie,

and that's the first time
I realized
Officer Tursi was behind me.

He grabbed my left shoulder.
He said, "Don't go out there,
Jim. It's a trap."

What was your concern, Officer?

I don't know how to explain it
other than a sixth sense
or something...

that there was something wrong
in the way Ramona went down.

I just felt something
was incorrect or not right
about that situation.

I stopped him from going out
right at that time. That's all.

I was scared to death.
I just didn't wanna let
that kid lay there like that.

[ Lytton ]
So what did you do?

My priorities at that time
were the kid.

We're trying to say to him,
"Son, come over here.
Come over here."

We're trying to get him
to come to us.

This is the result of
Officer Tursi saying be careful.

"It's not right"
or something to that effect.
"It doesn't feel right."

Inadvertently,
Birdie gets up.

I remember him
taking a few steps
and went down in the water.

He fell?

I interpreted it as a fall
or stumble or whatever.

As soon as
he went down in the water,

at the same time
that I seen that,
Officer Tursi's right with me.

I said,
"Mike, I'm getting the kid,"

and he said,
"I got you covered."

I remember I went in
underneath with my right hand,

and I scooped him
underneath his left arm.

[ Lytton ]
Was his head
submerged under the water?

I don't remember.
As soon as he hit the water,
I went.

I remember as soon
as I scooped him up,

he said to me,
"Don't shoot me.
Don't shoot me."

[ Brown ]
When the police got you
after you finally got out,

did they ask you anything
about whether or not there were
any kids still in the house...

or were there
any other grown-ups
still in the house?

Yeah.

You said there
were other kids still there?
Mm-hmm.

Do you remember who it was
who was still in the house?

Tree,

Netta,

Tomaso and Melissa,

Phil,

and the big people
were Theresa, Rhonda,

Paul,

Nick...

and Rad and C.K.

[ Sirens Wailing ]

[ Man ] Ramona Africa, the MOVE
spokesperson in recent weeks,
is in police custody tonight.

She was captured
outside the MOVE compound...

sometime after the massive fire
broke out there this afternoon.

[ Woman ]
The child being treated
here at Children's...

is suffering from second-
and third-degree burns
on his arms and legs.

All officials know
at this point about his identity
is that his last name is Africa.

[ Man ]
All night long, an increasing
number of firemen...

have been trying to battle
what is now a six-alarm blaze.

[ Chris ]
There's a lot more water
being trained on it,

but it looks as though
this is going to burn
for a long, long time.

[ Goode ]
We had a difficult problem.

We made a difficult decision.

It did not turn out
as we intended.

As we face the coming days,

I ask your prayers for our city,

for the homeless families...

and for the families
of those who've lost lives.

In the beginning, MOVE people...

were the most happiest bunch
of people you could ever know.

We were a family--
peaceful, loving.

And in the beginning,

MOVE was harassed a great deal.

We were beat many, many times.

[ Voice Cracking ] We were
jailed many, many times.

And I'm talking about
a people...

who had feelings--
[ Sniffles ]

who are no different
than you or I.

If the system can convict me
of riot and conspiracy...

in a blatant situation
like that...

where it's obvious to
everybody-- the whole world--
that I did not riot,

then it should not be hard
to imagine at all...

why and how this system
convicted nine people
of murdering one cop.

It's the same thing--

that the system
had one intention
in both confrontations--

to either kill MOVE people
or to put us in prison
as long as possible.

It's just that simple.

[ Rev. Washington ]
Was it like being in a war?

There's just too many things
are going on, to sit here
and just say how you felt.

We felt-- I thought
about the kids in the house.
I thought about my kids.

I thought about a lot of things.
But to sit here-- I don't know.

I couldn't answer that.
Mm-hmm.

I am, uh--

I've, uh, been sitting here
listening for many days...

and I've read scores of pages
of reports and testimony.

And it has all been--
all of it--

uh, very depressing...

and very discouraging...

except what I've read
about Officer Berghaier...

and what I've heard
from Officer Berghaier.

And if there's any hope
in this whole sorry situation,

it's because of that officer,
and I wanna thank him.
[ Berghaier ] Thank you, sir.

[ Brown ]
I think you've done
such a good job.

I'm gonna stop
my questions now,

and I wanna thank you
for taking all this time to
come in here and chat with us.

That will bring a smile
to your face, won't it?

And I wanna thank
your dad, Mr. Ward.

Thank you very much
for your cooperation.
You're quite welcome.

And Mr. Shrager,
of course.
Thank you.

This will conclude
this deposition of testimony...

of Michael, uh, Ward.

[ Brown ]
As of today,

you the people,
have all the principal facts...

which tell the story
of the Osage Avenue tragedy.

Rarely has any community
ever subjected itself...

to a public self-appraisal...

as painful and necessary
as this has been.

But we believe that this process
is absolutely necessary...

to prevent such a terrible thing
from ever happening again.

And now I declare
these public hearings...

to be in recess
until further notice.