All language subtitles for The.Last.Drive-in.with.Joe.Bob.Briggs.S33E18.Blood.and.Black.Lace.720p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DDP2.0.H.264-BFM_track4_[eng]

-Well, don't we look cool?

We look like we just walked
off the cover

of a Philo Vance novel,
don't we?

Have any of you guys
ever read a Philo Vance novel?

Anybody?
-No.

-No?

Then you don't know how
pretentious and dated they are.

But the first time the word
"giallo " was used was in 1929.

The Rome publishing
house Mondadori released

"The Benson Murder Case."

This was a best-selling
American novel from 1926,

written by New York City
social climber

what would have been called
a dandy at the time,

who used the pen name
S.S. Van Dine

and S.S. Van Dine's detective
was Philo Vance,

who was the most cultured
and well-educated

person in the world.

Ridiculously smart,
he attended Harvard, Oxford,

German universities.

He was fluent in five languages.

He was an expert in art history,
philosophy,

law, literature, anthropology,

and he had a natural instinct
for figuring out

a murderer's true motives

because of his extensive studies
in psychology.

Plus, he was a coin collector,
a dog breeder,

an expert at archery,
an ornithologist.

Always ordered the finest wines
in the finest restaurants.

He was a pianist,
a fencer, a boxer,

a chess player,
able to figure out

casino gambling odds
in his head.

He was always perfectly dressed
and groomed.

In other words, Philo Vance
is a pain in the ass.

Nevertheless,
"The Benson Murder Case"

was a bestseller
when it was released in 1926,

and it led to 11 more
Philo Vance novels.

And when Mondadori
decided to start

its mystery series in Italy,

they chose
to translate it into Italian,

partly because many Italians
had emigrated to New York City

over the past two decades,

and people in Italy were curious
about high society in America.

So "giallo " is the Italian word
for yellow.

And when "The Benson Murder
Case" was released,

Mondadori
used a bright yellow cover,

the same kind of cover
they would use for all the rest

of the hundreds of crime novels

that they would publish
over the next few decades.

But my point is,
the giallo was foreign.

It was always foreign.

At first it was just American
and British crime writers.

No Italians at all until
after World War II,

and then just a few then.

So when Mario Bava decides
to make a giallo film in 1962,

he's probably talking about
a cheap paperback translation

of an American or a British
writer like Agatha Christie,

Edgar Wallace, Rex Stout.

Does anybody remember Rex Stout?

Rex Stout was the creator
of another genius

New York detective
named Nero Wolfe.

Anyway, the giallo
was a foreign puzzle story.

These were detective stories
about murder solving.

They were intricate plots
with smart Brits

and smart Americans
figuring out crimes.

So it should be no surprise
that one of the things

that happens when Italians start
making giallo movies

is that they use foreigners
in the lead roles.

It's almost like
they didn't think Italians

were smart enough to --

Because all the Italian
detectives in these movies

tend to be these dull,
plodding bureaucrats

who are always barking
up the wrong trees.

But the American or the Brit
or the German shows up

and he figures out the crime.

So in "The Bird
with the Crystal Pumage,"

it's the American novelist
Sam Dalmas.

In Mario Bava's first giallo --

I'm going to call it
a proto-giallo film --

"The Girl Who Knew Too Much,"
an American tourist in Rome

gets involved
in a serial murder case,

even though
the American tourist was played

by an Italian actress,
Letícia Román.

And even though the cast of our
next movie is mostly Italian,

the male lead is
American actor Cameron Mitchell,

who worked with Bava
three times,

and Bava,
and he considered Bava

the greatest director
he ever worked with,

and Mitchell had worked
with John Ford,

Elia Kazan,

uh, Sam Peckinpah,
Raoul Walsh, Stanley Kramer.

Okay, so I've said a lot about
the origins of the word "giallo"

and its importance.

And actually Mondadori
is still there.

It still publishes these giallo
translations 96 years later.

But I want --
Now, I want you guys

to talk about
what the word "giallo" means

and how it's used and
misused in the film community,

because obviously it means
something different now.

So Lars let's start with you.
Go for it.

I know you feel strongly
about it.

-Well, when you talk about
giallo novels,

really, that's pretty much
any kind of mystery

or thriller,
mystery-thriller.

But when you talk about
giallo films,

that is its own thing,
because as a film,

we anticipate
if we're watching a giallo,

that it's going to be a mystery

where the crime is solved
by someone

who has been sort of
spontaneously put into the role

of the investigator
or the detective.

It's generally,
or maybe always not,

it's not a cop,
it's not a private eye.

It's someone who is like,
witnessed a murder and now

has to get to the bottom of it.

Um, so that -- that sort of
blow up, uh, angle of it

is kind of what we've come
to think of as the giallo.

And then often generally,

and I will credit Argento
with this,

there's often
a psychological framework of it

where there's a neurosis
or a psychosis

that forms a very difficult
to detect motive for the murder,

that you have to put
the jigsaw pieces

of this person's broken psyche
together to determine.

-Okay, what about you, Troy,
what do you think?

I know you feel
strongly about --

I mean, the word "giallo "
got transformed

when it became a movie.

So how did -- how is that
transformation expressed?

-Well, as you rightly say,
it comes from these series

of paperback pulp thrillers,
effectively.

Um, another important aspect of
that is the very lurid cover art

that was done for these books.

And so that's what really

the Italian filmmakers
kind of tapped into.

Regardless of whether the books
themselves were lurid or not,

they always promised sex
and violence.

So that's a very important part
of the whole giallo experience.

If you say giallo to an Italian,
it's a thriller.

They don't really make
any distinction.

You say it outside of Italy.
It's a very specific thing.

I think it has to be
primarily Italian,

understanding that these films,

usually there are
other countries involved

in the financing.

Uh, "Blood and Black Lace,"
for example,

there's also French
and German money in it.

Uh, this is not unusual,
but primarily an Italian film.

There are a bunch of movies
made in other countries,

especially Spain,
during the 1970s.

There's a lot
of giallo -type films.

I don't think
they're true giallo,

but hey, that's just me.

-Because they can't deliver.

They can't deliver all
those Italian elements

that we associate with.

-They try.
-Okay.

Sam,
anything to add to that?

-Yeah.
And I agree with Troy that

they are a time and a place.

They --
They are primarily Italian.

I think post
"Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

once you enter into '70s giallo,

there's really kind of
the hallmarks of it form

in terms
of the stylistic choices --

black gloves, um, the scores.

I think the scores play
a huge part

and some sort of
societal concern.

I think after Plumage
they become kind of street level

versus "Blood and Black Lace,"

which still feels very gothic
and classical.

And then I think everything
after that is, you know,

I hate to add a word post,
but it's like post-hardcore,

like, every movie after that
is kind of like post-giallo,

and they're using the stylistic
choices and nodding to them,

but the more pure aspects
of it were, I think,

mainly the decade of the '70s.

-What about you, Claire?
What's giallo mean today?

-I have been
thinking about this,

and I sort of think
that it would be easier

to define what a giallo is.

Um, not so much by like,

checking off a bunch
of items on a list,

but by having, like,
a bingo card.

And once you get a certain
density of the right elements,

then it's okay
because if you really --

When people start
to describe the typical giallo,

we all say the same things.

It's like, oh,
you have the reluctant

fish-out-of-water detective
who usually is foreign.

You have
the black-gloved killer.

And a lot of these descriptions

are just descriptions
of Argento movies.

And when you really start
looking at a list

of what the proper gialli are,

even the ones
that most people agree on,

those elements are not
in lots and lots of them.

And then you have folks
like us arguing about which

which movies
are gialli at all.

I actually,
I know this is controversial,

but, you know,
Umberto Lenzi made those movies

with Carroll Baker,
and I find a lot of them

are just like
neurotic psychodramas.

They're not really gialli
to me.

But then some people will argue
that "Suspiria" is a giallo.

-It is not.
-And it --

It is not, but --
-Damn right.

-But people say this
who are not always morons.

And it's, um, I just think
it's -- it's provocative

that we have to argue
about this.

-So there's a non-moron
critical mass of people

who have a larger definition
of the giallo.

-Yeah. I don't want to accuse
anyone on TV,

but I've heard the arguments.

I'm like, alright,
I understand why you think that.

-The -- The one thing
we haven't really pointed out

is that it's not supernatural
in nature.

That's a thing
that the giallo,

I think that
that must be the case,

that it is not supernatural
in nature.

-It get's tricky though.
-Yeah.

-Like, yeah, Fulci's
"The Psychic" is very giallo.

-Bava's "Hatchet for the
Honeymoon" is another one

where it turns into
a ghost story at the end.

-I mean, but isn't it true

sometimes you think
it's supernatural, but it's not?

-Well, yeah.
-Scooby-Doo.

-Scooby-Doo ending,
yeah, yeah, true.

-Alright, in the
Battle for the Black Glove,

what is the score,
Darcy?

It is 30-30.

-There you go.
-Alright.

-Tied at halftime.

-Now we're going to watch
the film that was regarded as
the foundation film of
the giallo,

uh, "Blood and Black Lace."

A film that was
not a success at the box office,

but it had a really outsized
influence on other filmmakers,

and it continues to have
that influence to this day.

"Blood and Black Lace
is the sensitive story

of a haute couture
fashion house,

where the models and designers

are being stalked
by a black-gloved killer

looking for a diary that details
all kinds of scandals

involving jealousy,
infidelity, blackmail, drugs,

and of course, murder.

And sure,
we've seen it before,

but have we seen it
with a spiked-metal glove

that just might be the prototype
for Freddy Krueger?

I think not.

So let's take a look at
those drive-in totals.

We have...

Chase. Kidnapping. Blackmail.
Double cross fu

Drive-In Academy Award
nominations for Eva Bartok

as the Countess with
a modeling career who says,

"The show must go on,
you know."

Cameron Mitchell
as the fashion-house owner

for being Cameron Mitchell,

Mary Arden as the model
who finds the diary for saying,

"Please believe me,
I burned it!"

Thomas Reiner
as the grim-faced inspector

who says,
"Perhaps the sight of beauty

makes him lose control
of himself, so he kills,"

Carlo Rustichelli,
the composer for the jazzy score

that keeps us slightly unsettled
the whole time.

And of course,
Mario Bava for making a movie

we're still talking
about 61 years later.

Four stars.
Joe Bob says, "Check it out."

People eventually got
sick of those

Philo Vance detective novels.

And my theory is that

once you meet Sam Spade
and Philip Marlowe,

you cannot stomach this weenie
with a pencil mustache

who quotes Schopenhauer
at the cocktail party.

You know, "The Big Sleep"
comes out in, um, 1939.

"The Maltese Falcon"
came out in 1929,

and Philip Marlowe
could just beat

Philo Vance's ass blindfolded,
with both hands tied,

and Sam Spade could beat his ass
and then sell him into slavery.

So you know what I mean.

The L.A., what happened
is the L.A. detectives

just wipes New York detectives
off the map.

-Until "Shaft"
brought them back.

-True, true.

Shaft was the first
New York detective

to take --
take the mantle back.

-Damn right.
-So Shaft could chop Philo Vance

into pieces
and feed him to the squirrels.

-That's true.

-What's got into you?
Why didn't you phone?

Isabella might see us.

-Did you bring some?
-No.

-I can't stand it anymore.

I can't stand it anymore.

-Be patient.

When I'm through,
we'll get some.

How about Isabella?

-We had a quarrel.

Damn her!

She even took what I had.

Try to hold out.

We'll find some, for sure.

Please hold out.

Please.

Go now.

-Okay. Later.

Okay.

Goodbye.

-Isabella. Your scarf.

-Thanks.
-Goodbye.

-Aah!

Jack!

-The sign seems to have
come off again.

Want me to fix it?

-No. No. Not today.

You can do it tomorrow.

Listen, Isabella hasn't
turned up again.

I don't know what to do
with that girl.

This is the third time.

-All I suggest is a penalty.

Make her pay a fine.

-It's all very well.

The next time she does it,
I'm going to fire her.

-Good night, madame.
-Good night.

Nicole.

Look at this dress.

I wish you'd take care
of the things you wear.

Tomorrow's the show.
Now, look at this.

-Yes, madam. I'm sorry.

-Yes, you are sorry, especially
when it's time to leave.

You have absolutely no mind
for anything else.

-What does she expect?

I'm not in mourning like her.
-Poor thing.

She hasn't been the same
since her husband died.

-Aah! Isabella!

-How long were the lights out?

-About 10 minutes.

-How long has the girl
worked for you?

-About two years.

-What was she like?

-She was rather lively,

perhaps lacking discipline.

Nothing seriously
wrong with her.

-Did she have many friends?

-Well, Inspector, I'm afraid
I can't be of much help to you.

I suggest you ask the two girls
who lived with her.

-Inspector Sylvester,
Countess Christina Como,

the owner of our salon.

-Good morning.
-Good morning.

But we've already met,
haven't we?

-Oh. Oh, yes.
Yes, I think so.

After my husband's death.

-I remember.
The car accident.

Uh, you certainly can help me.

You surely know everything
about these girls.

-Inspector, I don't
run a boarding school.

When the girls
finish here, they --

they're free to go
and do as they please.

Well, um,
I'll be in the studio,

if you'll excuse me.
-Please.

-You say you went outside
to repair the metal sign?

At what time was it?
-About 7:00.

Madam Christina complained that
the noise got on her nerves.

So I went out
and I put up the sign again.

But I came back inside at once.

-Mr. Morlan,
I demand an explanation.

I hardly put my foot
inside the gate

when these two grabbed
ahold of me.

-Ask the inspector.
-Inspector?

-Calm down and tell me
why you're here.

-Allow me.

Marquis Richard Morell.

-Alright, alright.
Now, answer my question.

-He's here to see me.
He's my fiancé.

-Why are you laughing?

-Because I live with him.

-Did you know Isabella?

-Isabella?

You introduced me
to her, didn't you?

Yes, I can say I knew her.
Only slightly, though.

-Only slightly.

-Well, you seem to be
the only one who cares.

-They were close friends.

-The three of you
lived together?

-Yes.
-What was she like?

Tell me who your friend
went out with.

-I don't know, I don't know.
-Leave her alone.

Everybody knows
who Isabella's lover was.

-Who are you?

-Caesar Lazar.
I'm a dress designer.

-What about the other name?

-Which?
-The name of this lover.

-Scalo. Frank Scalo,
the antique dealer.

-Please tell me, where
is Inspector?
-In there.
-Thank you.

-Would you excuse me
for a moment?

-They confirm.

Drugs.

-I see.
-Yes, sir.

-So...what kind of
a relationship was there

with Isabella and you?

-We were just friends.

-Or lovers.

-Well, I hope it doesn't become
scandalized if I tell you.

But I don't believe
in permanent,

exclusive relationships.

-I see, I see.

Ever seen it before?

-No. I don't know.

What is it?

-Cocaine.

It was found in your friend
Isabella's house.

-Isabella?

-You knew nothing about it?

-No.

-Never mind.

However, I must ask you
to remain at my disposal.

I'll see you later.

-Turn around.

Alright. You can go.
Hurry!

Well, Caesar, what is it?

-This should have been
worn by -- by poor Isabella.

-Yes. Of course.
-Who shall I give it to?

-Well, let me see.

Oh, Peggy. Look. Here.
-Please. No. Not me.

No, no. Please. I saw her
put that dress on.

-Oh, for heaven's sake,
stop that!

You're going to
ruin your makeup!

Greta, you model it.

-Oh, no, I don't think
I should wear it.

-Look, don't be so silly.
-It carries bad luck, I'm sure.

-But, girl,
someone's got to model it.

-I'll wear the dress.
-Alright. Now come on.

-What a cynic.
She doesn't believe in anything.

-That's alright. You can go.

-Turn around.

Walk.

Alright.

-Wait.

There's something missing.

The brooch.
The brooch goes there.

-We'll soon put it right.
Where is it?

-Well, it was Isabella's own.
Wait a minute.

She kept it in one of the boxes.
Let's look for it.

-Here it is.

Hey. Look at this.

Isabella kept a diary.

This is a gold mine. Listen.

"He is a man that awakens
such deep feelings in me

that afterwards
I feel limp, empty."

-Let me see.

-I don't think we should.

-Come. Are you crazy?

This is hardly the moment.

Be off with you.
Go on. Go on and change.

This, you know,
should be handed to the police.

-I found it.

If you don't mind,

I would like to give it
to the police tomorrow.

-As you wish.

-Hello? Hello, Frank?

Why haven't you come?
-I'm just leaving,

but I don't feel well.

-I understand.

Come out here. I've got some.

Listen, Frank. I found a diary.
Isabella's diary.

-A diary?

Who else knows?

-Everyone was looking.

I didn't realize
that there might be

something about you in it.

By the way,
I said that I would give it

to the police tomorrow.
-Good.

That gives us time to look
through it.

I'll be right over.

-But you are terribly ill,
Frank.

Frank? Can you hear me?

-Nicole, I can hardly breathe.

If you've got some,
I'll feel better. Goodbye.

-Goodbye.

-Hurry up, girls.
Greta, you're next.

Everything alright, Marco?
-Yes, madam.

-Good.

Well, Caesar,
where have you been?

-Right here.
-Well, then, send them in.

Do I have to do
everything myself?

-Nicole, you're wanted
on the phone.

-Me?
-Yes, you.

-Hello?
-Hello? Is that you, Nicole?

-Yes. Who's speaking?

-Frank. I can't make it.

I feel too bad.

You come here. Please?

I feel like I'm suffocating.
-How can I come now?

Well, I will do my best.
I will come right away.

-Alright, hurry up,
hurry up.

-Frank feels bad. He needs me.

I'll have to go over.
I can't wait anymore.

Please lend me your car.
-How are you going to get away?

We're right in the middle
of a show.

-Who cares?
Please give me your keys.

But don't let anyone see you.

-Peggy, what are you doing?

-Nothing. I was looking
for a handkerchief.

Be careful. The alarm
is in the glove compartment,

right at the back.
-Sure.

Cover me.

-So Nicole's bag disappears
and with it,

the diary that everybody seems
way too interested in.

But what an opening.

This beautiful house
surrounded by beautiful women

who have to be beautiful
for a living.

And it's all surrounded
by drugs,

deception, fear and murder.

There's an assumption
in a lot of giallo films,

not just this one,
that anywhere you have luxury,

you also have corruption.

And in fact,
the luxury hides the corruption.

And added to the atmosphere

is those creepy mannequins
everywhere.

Plus, the killer himself
looks a little like a mannequin

with that white mask.

So Bava has put up
this flashing neon sign

that says people who traffic in
beauty and wealth are ugly, so.

Or we'll see
what our panel says

as the Battle for the Black
glove continues.

We have a dead tie,
30 to 30.

We're going to try
to settle for all time

which movie is the foundation
film for giallo --

"The Bird with
the Crystal Plumage,"

or "Blood and Black Lace."

And it's your turn, Lars.

The topic is hatred
of the aristocracy.

Go for it.

Why is Bava better
at hating the aristocrats?

-Well, if you're in Italy
and it's in the '60s,

uh, it's a
relatively recent phenomenon

that your whole country,

uh, the industrialists,
the aristocrats, the wealthy

got together and they did
a little trick called,

uh, fascism
and colluding with Hitler.

And it practically destroyed
your entire country.

So, uh, the fact is,
at this time,

the leading political parties

were like, socialists,
the communists.

Uh, there was Marxism
and socialists going around,

and it was a
very mainstream pursuit, um,

because they hated the wealthy,

because the wealthy had done
to them.

It practically destroyed
their whole country.

And I think that like, uh, if
we're sort of wondering, like,

why would you hate
the aristocracy this much?

It's like, well, try going
through like, uh, you know,

20 years of fascism that
destroys your whole country,

uh, literally demolishes
all your cities, your schools,

your universities,
and you're having to rebuild.

So that's
why the aristocracy is so hated.

And that's the --
that's the pool that --

that Bava's drawing from,
that hatred of the aristocracy.

-And you're saying that
he does that more than Argento?

-Well, Argento really,
who was a socialist,

but -- but he's -- he's also
kind of a member of that class,

of that aristocratic class.

-Okay.

And Sam Zimmerman,
curator of Shudder,

it's your turn to confirm
or rebut what Lars says

from the Argento point of view.

-Well, you know,

even if Argento was
a member of that class,

his films take the giallo
to a bit more street level

than I think Bava's work was.

You know, Bava's work is very,
uh, high artifice, gothic.

On the street,
you can see Argento empathizing

and taking the point
of view of the marginalized,

Even in Plumage,

there are folks
he clearly has care for,

whether it's the pimp in jail,

whether it's the
"pervert in the lineup."

Um, so I think he's taking it
from the point of view

of being with the people

rather than in the sort of
high-fashion houses Bava does.

-Okay,
and now Claire Donner,

big cheese in the Institute
for Miskatonic Studies.

And Troy Howarth,
author of many books,

including books on Mario Bava.

You guys are free to join in.

-I think --
-Bava or Argento?

-In terms of what
Lars was saying,

which I absolutely agree with,
um,

Bava lived through that period
as an adult

in a way that Argento didn't.

Argento was born in 1940.

He's of a younger generation.

He doesn't really
experience that firsthand.

You know, he's there for
the kind of the end part of it.

But as a child, uh,

whereas Bava was already
an adult,

he actually is, you know, part
of the film industry at the time

when Mussolini was
still very much involved.

Mussolini controlled the film
industry

during that period of time.

-He built Cinecittà.

-He built Cinecittà.

He established the --
the Rome Cinema School.

So, you know, it was something
that he definitely encountered.

And I think in a way,
you know,

it impacted
him a little bit more directly

than it did with Argento.

So I think that aspect
comes across

a little bit stronger
in his films.

-I will respond to this
if you promise to say

Miskatonic Institute
of Horror Studies.

-Miskatonic Institute
of Horror Studies.

What did I say?
Institute of Miskatonic...

something else?
-Yeah, some words.

It's fine.

There's a lot of words
in the name.

-Miskatonic Institute
of Horror Studies.

-We did it!
-They have a website.

-We do have a website.
-And -- and classrooms.

-Sort of. Yeah.
-Okay.

-I mean, anywhere that
you're learning is a classroom,

I suppose,
including the streets.

Um, but don't you love it
when so long,

the pimp
with the heart of gold,

says it's got to be
some rich guy?

It's like, yeah, probably.

And Argento,
you know,

I think the case could be made

that if you come from
the
inside,

you're more aware of
what these people are like

and how perverse and degenerate

they are from seeing it
up close.

And Argento also as a young man,

because he was such
a like snotty brat, frankly,

would kind of run away from home
and live with prostitutes

and run around, you know,
eating junk food and starving

and or anyway,
this is the way he tells it,

but I have to take it for
granted because I wasn't there.

So I think --

-That sounds like a
dissipated aristocratic class.

-Well, I just think
that he sort of sees

both sides of things

and that he's airing
frustration with these movies.

-I think Tim Argento's
defense of Mussolini

and the brownshirts
is absolutely unconscionable.

-Alright.

And should be remembered
when scoring happens.

-Alright, uh, on that note,

I'm calling time,
and I'm just going to take

a moment here to tally
up the points.

I should mention
that many people have commented

that Bava's cast features

some of the most beautiful women
in the world at that time,

most of them
destined to become

fetishistic corpses
in the movie.

But the boss woman
in the fashion house

playing Cristiano Cuomo,
the -- the Countess

was famous
for being so beautiful

that no man could resist her.

Uh, dozens of men fell in love
with her,

and she had this tumultuous
love life and marriage life

that was just incredible.

She was Hungarian,

and her father disappeared
without a trace

when the Nazis
took over Hungary,

and at the age of 15,
she was forced to marry

a Nazi officer to avoid going
to a concentration camp.

And then she later married
a friend

who promised to get passage
to Paris for her and her mother,

and then her third husband was
British producer Alexander Paul,

who took her to England

to make a film called
"A Tale of Five Women."

And then her fourth guy,

I think he was common law,
was Alexander Korda,

the president of MGM England,

who placed her under contract
at MGM.

And then she was with a PR guy
named William Wordsworth --

Good name for a PR guy --

who sent her to premieres
and opening nights

and promoted her career.

But because she couldn't afford
the gowns for the red carpet,

she started designing
her own clothing

and became notable for wearing
weird costumes and hats.

Then, an Italian promoter
offered her a contract

to perform in a vaudeville show,

which led to many
stage appearances

in the major cities
of Italy,

and then Burt Lancaster hired
her to be the leading lady

in "The Crimson Pirate" in 1952,

but that didn't lead
to anything lasting,

and then she became famous
for an affair

with David Michael Mountbatten,

who was in the British
royal family,

and she was actually named
in his divorce papers.

And then in 1953, she finally
fell in love with somebody.

She fell in love with
Curt Jurgens, the German actor,

and they got married.

And then she did a lot
of London stage work

and the occasional
Hollywood movie or TV show.

And then she gave birth in 1957
to a daughter

that she said much later
was fathered by Frank Sinatra.

But she named the daughter Deana
in honor of Dean Martin,

who she was working with
when she got pregnant

on a movie called
"10,000 Bedrooms."

So that whole thing
doesn't make sense.

And then she becomes one
of the actresses known

for pretty-woman type roles
in Italy.

And she makes this movie in 1964
at the age of 37,

and then retires from acting
entirely in 1967 at age 40,

and becomes a devotee
of mystical teachings

and dies in a London
hospital alone and penniless

in 1998 at the age of 71.

Woo!
-Wow!

-Had to do that just in view
of her place in history,

because this is probably
the greatest of all her roles.

Alright. The Battle for the
Black Glove is all tied up.

Well, it's no longer tied
up at 30-30

because I had to --

I had to give six points
to the Team Bava for the --

-Six points.
-For the more in-depth

familiarity
with the hated aristocracy.

So it's now 34 Argento,
36 Bava.

And now we're going back
to Nicole

responding to the phone call
from Frank,

played by Dante Di Paolo,

a former Broadway actor
famous for being the husband

of Rosemary Clooney

and for being one of those
singing, dancing brothers in

"Seven Brides
for Seven Brothers."

And apparently
he's a hophead now.

So roll the movie.

-Isn't he?

-What's a hophead?
-He's a hophead.

-Legal is never
going to let that go.

-He's a hophead in this movie.
-I don't know what that means.

-Well, he's dead now.

-A hophead.
You know, like...

Does hophead always mean heroin?

Or does it sometimes mean
other drugs?

He's a hophead.
-Who are you asking.

I don't know.

You know,
I'm remembering a line from --

from James M. Cain novel,
"Mildred Pierce."

And she had to use men
like ladders.

That's -- That's --
That's not the exact line.

But that was the idea.

And it seems from her interviews

that Curt Jurgens
was the one man

that Eva Bartok was truly
in love with.

But she was constantly thrown
into these situations

where her beauty
was the only thing

that would get her
to the next job, so.

-Girl's gotta do,
what a girl's gotta do, man.

-Survivor. Right.
-That's right.

-Once it works on the Nazis,

you know
it's got to work on everybody.

-True.
-Anyway, she was --

She was a diva on this set,
apparently.

Uh, but I think
she's brilliant in the role.

-Well, sometimes you
can earn the right to be a diva.

-Well...
-Just saying.

-I would say marrying
into the Gestapo

in order to save your life
and the life of your mother,

yeah, that counts for that right
to be diva.

-Diva!
-We'll allow it, we'll allow it.

Frank?

Frank?

Frank?

Frank.

Frank?

Aah!

Aah!

Aah!

-Have a good time, but don't
come home too late. Please.
-Good night.

-Peggy.
-Marco. Why did you get out?

-I wanted to keep you company
till Nicole gets in.

Aren't you afraid
in there alone?

-Well, to tell you the truth,
I'm awfully tired.

I wanted to go
to sleep right away.

-But don't you have to wait
till...

till Nicole brings
a car back anyway?

Please.
-Alright, alright.

Come on up.
-Thanks.

I couldn't have gone off
with an easy mind

knowing you were alone
in this house.

-Oh, Clarice,
you're still here?

-Good evening, miss.

Yes, I've just finished.

Miss Nicole hasn't come home?
-No. She's gone to a party.

She'd be home later.
She's always mothering us.

-Well, I'll be running along.

Oh, I left the dinner
heating on the stove.

Oh, if Miss Nicole wants
that mess of hers,

she only has to warm it up.

-Thank you, Clarice.
Goodnight. See you tomorrow.

-Peggy...

you just don't
seem to understand.

-Of course, I --
-Peggy,

I'm tired of trying
to make you understand.

Now, I've told you
a thousand times --

I've fallen in love with you.

I don't care what happens,
but...

-Calm down. Sit here.

-You see, I'm not well.

I know I look like a fool.

That's what makes me mad.

I'm ill and unlucky.
-Don't be like that.

I understand you.
I'm your friend.

Come on, cheer up.

-I'll get yours.
-Don't touch it!

Don't touch it!
-What's wrong?

I just wanted cigarettes.
What's wrong?

-I'll get the cigarettes.
You're just untidy in my bag.

Hello?
-Good evening, Miss Peggy.

This is Inspector Sylvester.

I have to ask you something
about your car.

Your car has been
found abandoned.

I want to know
if it has been stolen.

-No.
I lent it to my friend Nicole.

Yes. Yes. She was in a hurry.

A friend of hers
called to say he felt ill.

But has something happened?

-We better talk
about this in person.

I'll come over
and see you right away.

-Very well. I'll be waiting.

-What's up?
-They found my car,

but without Nicole.

My God,
what could have happened?

-Is he coming here?
-Yes. He wants to talk to me.

-Then...I better leave.

I don't want the police
to find me here.

-Yes. It's best no one knows
you've been here.

-Yes.

For me,
and especially for you.

-Yes, I suppose so.

-I'll see you tomorrow.
-Tomorrow.

-October 16th,

trying to steal $1,000

She began to cry and explained

She was pregnant and not able

I felt sorry and I

It means that tomorrow

I burned it! I burned it.
I burned it. I burned it.

Aah!

Aah!

Aah!

Aah!

-Miss Peggy?

-So this is the part
of the movie

where the audience starts
to realize,

"Oh my God, we're apparently
going to watch this whole movie

from the point of view
of the killer."

We're going to actually see
the stalking

and the terror
and the actual death,

instead of what would happen
traditionally in mystery movies

where you find a dead body
or you see a single gunshot

and then somebody collapses
to the ground.

That's why many critics call
this the first slasher film,

because no one had
ever seen a movie like this

where the kills are celebrated.

Um, Mario Bava was so
uninterested in the characters

of the dead women

that he didn't even bother
hiring actresses

for most of those roles.

Uh, Isabella,
the first victim

was played by a woman named
Francesca Ungaro,

who was never seen before
or after in any other movie,

leading to the conclusion
of most people

that Francesca Ungaro
is not even a real name.

Nicole, the victim
in the antique shop,

was played by Ariana Guarini,

a fashion model who had --
she only had three screen roles.

Mary Arden,
who plays Peggy,

was a genuine big name
fashion model.

She walked the runway
for Yves Saint Laurent

and Christian Dior
and Karl Lagerfeld,

but she had little interest
in acting.

The scene we just watched,

where she gets
repeatedly knocked down,

was shot twice,
once with her,

once with a stuntman in drag,

because some
of those physical moves

would be impossible otherwise.

Which leads me
to the next topic in our

Battle for the Black Glove,
Bava versus Argento.

The topic is the ruination
of beauty.

Is it true that in a giallo

anything conventionally
beautiful

must be either defaced
or destroyed

or uglied up in some manner?

And how do Bava and Argento

compare in their ability
to reveal the intense ugliness

beneath the veneer of beauty?

You're up first, Claire.

-Well, not to keep bringing up
my fancy

bachelor's degree
in art history,

but female beauty is,
like,

the maybe oldest focus
of all art, right?

So there's something
kind of special

about ruining that
in the giallo,

which I insist is a reaction to,
you know,

the old world crumbling away

and the savage modern
world coming to bear on things.

Bava does love defacing women,
like, literally.

And you kind of gotta
respect that.

That's a lot of fun,
and the things that he does

to the beautiful Barbara Steele
are like legendary, right?

But Argento is really attacking.

He's -- He attacks
beautiful women in a way

that seems to point out,

as Sam was saying earlier,
their vulnerability

and the constant imperiledness
of being an attractive,

conceivably virginal
young woman in Italy.

Um, and I think
it's really meaningful

that this attack is so
often carried out by an older,

uglier woman who's been there
and done that.

Okay.

-The rebuttal slot
belongs to Team Bava.

And that's you, Troy.

-Well,
that's one way of looking at it.

Uh, whether it's right or not,
it's another thing altogether.

Um, I think, you know,

given the fact
that we're talking about a film

that is over 60 years old
at this point,

it is extraordinary
how vicious and physical

the kill scenes in this movie
are.

Um, even if they're
not explicitly super gory,

the blood is applied in a way
that's very theatrical.

It looks like lipstick.

It's not the kind of
high-tech special effects

that you'll see
in an Argento film,

but they're physical,
and it's just that,

that image of smashing the face
against the tree, for example,

smashing the face
against a red hot stove.

The scene where
Mary Arden is just beaten,

beaten like crazy in that
beautifully appointed sort of

drawing room that's taking place
with the fire in the background.

Uh, Bava has this knack
for finding beauty

in horrific situations.

It's his use of lighting.
It's his use of decor.

Uh, it's his very elegant
staging within the shots.

And I think
that that's something that,

yeah, there are more explicitly
violent films than this one.

But for a movie from 1964,

I think this still packs
a tremendous wallop.

-Okay. Thank you, Troy.
Everybody can join in now.

Sam. Lars.

-Yeah, I think, uh,

first of all,
I'll concede to Troy.

I think Bava's image
can be quite vicious

and especially the implications
of them.

You brought up
the Barbara Steele moment

in "Black Sunday."

Something that
you have to look away from

even though you don't see
it explicitly.

What captivates me about
how Argento frames a lot of this

with respect to art
and beauty is,

he's often looking
through a frame

as if it is a screen or, um,
a portrait frame, a painting.

You know, you're seeing them
in art galleries in "Deep Red."

It's through the window.

Uh, there's lots of windows
that, of course,

figure into Argento's work
and the act of watching.

So I think he is often tying
these things to the --

the nature of --
of art and beauty

and how we look at people
who are beautiful

and then explicitly ruining
them.

-Yeah. It's a --
There's --

The aesthetic qualities of it

still pop even all
these years later.

And I think that's really
notable because a lot of people

are probably watching this
for the first time

and they're shocked.

It's an old movie.
They can tell it's an old movie.

You can tell by the way
people dress

and act
that it's an old movie,

and yet you're seeing things
that are so graphic

and so much more violent

than would even
be appropriate in a,

certainly,
a Hollywood movie of today.

-But do you think Bava's
dead fashion models

are better than Argento's
dead fashion models?

-I think
I don't even think

there's a dispute in this
matter.

I think absolutely Bava kills
fashion models far better

than Dario Argento
ever dreamed of doing.

-Claire?

-But those women are killed
by people

who aren't necessarily doing it
for the fun of it.

And I think this is
really important.

You know, you ultimately
find out all this dreary,

soap operatic nonsense

that's behind the kills
in the Bava movie

that, um, really is
like kind of a red herring

that's supposed to distract
you from these, like,

inheritance machinations
and stuff

that are always present
in his films.

In the Argento picture,

you've got a woman
who's really after the business

of destroying this beauty.

It's emotional, it's personal,
it's more meaningful.

-That said,
I think that nobody

who doesn't enjoy
what they're doing

would kill with as much gusto

as the killer does in
"Blood and Black Lace."

-That killer loves it.
That killer loves to kill.

-That killer's getting off
on it.

-Yeah.
-Absolutely.

-I have to assume Bava had
fewer materials to work with

when he was creating
those dead bodies.

-Oh, God. Yes.
-But I don't know.

-Oh, no.
-But, I mean --

-There's no comparison
between what Bava --

-He's a multi-generation
special effects guys.

-Yeah, yeah.
-You know?

Anything to say
about the special effects?

-Well, actually, with Bava,
because he's an FX guy,

you kind of sense that that's
where he's deriving his pleasure

is just from, like,
the fun of problem solving.

And maybe the less you
have to work with,

the more fun it is
to see what you can accomplish.

And that, I think, is what
produces these like fabulous,

if crude, gore effects.

Where with Argento
you really get a sense

of this character's pain
and anguish

and sadomasochistic urges.

-I think
when you look at Bava's film,

it really is, um,
it's a photo book, you know?

You're -- You're -- You
are going through an art book,

and if you were to take 50
random frames out of this film

and publish it and say, this is
a monograph by Cindy Sherman,

people would believe it.

Like, it actually --

It actually
is fine art in its own way,

within this very, sort of pulpy,
very sort of popular context.

It is pulp art.

-Okay, well,
you guys convinced me.

I think I gotta give another six
for, uh, round two, uh, Bava.

-Whoa.
-Can't argue with that.

-Which makes the score 38-42.

Uh, and, um,

I'll just mention that
the ads for this movie promised,

"The 30 most beautiful women
in the world."

I'm not sure there are actually
30 women in the whole cast.

-30 people in the whole cast.

-Even if you count
extras and day players.

But a more honest ad
would have said,

"We're gonna take 30
of the most beautiful women

in the world and mess them up."

-Yeah.
-So, uh, anyway.

The score is 38-42.

We're going now back
to Inspector Sylvester's

intrepid search
for the mass killer

in "Blood and Black Lace."

Roll the film.

Mary Arden,
who we just talked about,

started her career as one
of The June Taylor Dancers.

Nobody remembers
The June Taylor Dancers,

I don't think, but they
performed every Saturday night

on "The Jackie Gleason Show,"

which was a big deal
in the '50s and the '60s.

It was a variety show,

and the money shot was
at the end of their routine,

this overhead camera
would turn the bodies

of The June Taylor Dancers
into a kaleidoscope, and --

-Are you sure
that's what it was?

-Well,
maybe not a kaleidoscope.

They're, like,
sprawled out on the floor,

moving their hands and legs
like a kaleidoscope.

Kaleidoscope dancing,
it was a thing.

-I feel like
you're making that up.

Well -- Well, we can't --

We can't ask Mary Arden
because she died in 2014.

But I think that's --
I think that's what it's called.

-There's probably footage out.
-Actually, that's a good idea.

Anybody who has
June Taylor footage

from "The Jackie Gleason Show,"

tell us if you can spot
Mary Arden in the kaleidoscope

and circle her on there
and send that to us.

-I promise you,
somebody's going to do that.

-It's such a good use of time.

Yeah, that's mutant, mutant AI.
I call this mutant AI.

We'll just give them
the assignment

and it'll come back to us.

-Let's do it.

-Good evening.
I must ask you to excuse me.

There's no time to be visiting,
but it's a rather urgent matter.

-Please, make yourself
comfortable.

Why did you come here?

Charles, you may go, please.

Well, then?
-A little while ago, I...

I found Nicole lying in my shop.

S-She's been murdered.

-Oh, my God.

-I'd gone to the salon
to pick up Nicole.

Remember?
I met you there at the time.

I looked for her everywhere,
but I couldn't find her.

Then I went back to my shop...

and believe me, I...

I've never seen such a mess.

-You'll pardon me,
but why have you come here

instead of calling the police?

-Nicole was my girlfriend.

She was murdered in my shop.

The police will be
accusing me of it.

I need an alibi,
and
you've
got to help me.

-Me?
What have I got to do with it?

-Me? You're just as much
to blame for it as I am.

We've got to tell the police
that we're always together

at the salon, right to the end.

I'll back you up.
You do the same for me.

It's best for both of us.

-But you're mad.

The police have no reason
to accuse me of anything.

You're
the one
who's in trouble.

You really
could have killed her.

No, no. Call the police at once,
or
I'll
have to.

-Alright, go right ahead.

But don't forget to tell him
about your bad debt.

-What debts?

-You signed IOUs to Isabella

for a loan of
several thousand dollars

and couldn't pay the money back.

-Is it true?
Richard, you never told me.

Is it true?

My God. My God.

-You, my dear Marquis,
don't have a single dollar

to your name.

You're absolutely flat
and afraid of a scandal!

Which is a good enough reason
for...for killing Isabella.

At same time eliminating
the possibilities of her diary

being read by the police.

Who knows?

Perhaps her diary

had the dates on which
the payments were due.

-Which diary?
I know nothing of it.

-Don't lie, Richard.

I told you Nicole
had found Isabella's diary.

-As you see, we sink
or swim together, Mr. Morell.

And if you don't want
the police meddling around

in your private affairs...

I suggest you take my advice.

I'm going back to my shop now
and call the inspector.

I'll tell him
that we were always together.

Alright?

Good evening.

You've got to believe me,
I burned it!

I tell you, I burned it!

There was something
about my private life

I didn't want anybody
to know about.

You've got to believe me!
I burned it!

Aah!

Please believe me, I burned it!
You got to believe me!

Burned it!

No! No!

No!

No!

Aah!

Oh, God!

No!

No!

No!

-How do you think
this girl got in here?

-She had a key.

-How come?

-I'd given it to her.

She used to come and see me
now and then.

-Her too?

-Inspector,
please don't think that I...

Nicole was the reason
why I left Isabella.

-And how many other people
had a key to your door?

-No one else,
except myself naturally.

-Naturally.

Did you take drugs with her too?

-Why, what do you mean?
Inspector?

-Come, come, come, Scalo.

Don't try to fool me.

You've got the habit.
It's written all over your face.

If you like, I'll even tell you
where you get the stuff.

And, uh, as for the girls who...

who, shall we say,
keep you company...

they either try to get you
to drop the habit like Isabella,

or join you in it
like this one, for example.

-Alright. Perhaps.

But that doesn't
make me a murderer.

Besides, I -- I've got an alibi.

I was with --
-I haven't asked you...

for the time being.

We'll go on with it later.

-When?
-In my office.

Come along.

-Is this the one?
-Yes.

-Are you sure?
-Oh, yes.

Wait a minute.
I wrote down the first number.

Uh, 453.

You can see.

-Did you see a man or a woman?
-A man. I am sure.

He was dressed in black,

but he seemed
to not have a face.

-Perhaps he was wearing a mask.
-Perhaps. I don't know.

I was distracted by the horn.
-Which horn?

-The horn of this car,
Inspector.

I know it. I've serviced it.

It blew for a time,
and then it stopped.

-Has this car got
a burglar alarm, Sergeant?

-Yes. It's here,
in the glove compartment.

-How long did it blow?

-I don't know. I told you --
it wasn't for long.

This long?

-Stop. Not longer than that.

-If you don't know where it is,

it will take quite a while
to find it.

-We've wasted enough time
on this.

Let's go to the office.

Come in, please.

-Thank you.

-Look at them carefully.

Have you ever seen any of them
in Miss Peggy's car?

-Good morning, Mr. Morlan.

-Morning, Clarice.
-Have you seen him in the car?

-Certainly.
She's seen me before in the car.

On more than one occasion.
What's so strange about that?

-And who said there was?

Let's continue.

-Him.
I've seen
him
in the car.

-Of course she's seen me.
What does it prove?

This is all so ridiculous.
-Be quiet.

-You didn't see only me,
did you?

Open your eyes, you idiot!

Look at him.
Haven't you ever seen him?

-Inspector, do you only want
to know

if I saw them in the car?
-Why?

-Because...this gentleman
came into the flat

with Miss Peggy last night.

-We are beginning to see
the light now.

-You swine!
What are you getting at?

You want to ruin me?

I'll kill you! I'll kill you!

Why don't you confess?

Confess! Confess!

You're the murderer!

Inspector, look at his face.
He hates women!

Look at him! He's the killer,
I tell you! He's the killer!

He killed them all because
he couldn't go with any of them!

Why don't you tell the inspector

that your wife left you
for that very reason?

My pills...
My pills!

-Try to hold him still.
He could hurt himself.

Take him to the hospital.

-Didn't any of you know
he was an epileptic?

-No, I didn't.

-You can go home now.

-Goodbye, Clarice.

-I'm sorry, but I'm afraid
I'll have to ask you

to stay here, Mr. Morlan.

You too, Mr. Lazar.

-What do you mean stay here?

-I mean I shall have warrants
made out for your arrest.

-Uh...
pardon me, Inspector,

what exactly is
the reason behind this?

-Miss Nicole's murderer had used
Peggy's car on other occasions.

That's why he knew exactly where
the burglar alarm was hidden.

-Can I go now?
-And me?

-No. You both stay, too.

-But that's ridiculous.
I've got an alibi.

I -- The Marquis
has confirmed it.

-It's true.
We were together.

-Oh, don't worry.
I haven't forgotten it.

You both were at his house
till 11:00

while Miss Nicole
was murdered at 10:00.

-So what do you want with us?
-Well...

when I called Miss Peggy
to say that I had found her car,

it was about 11:30.

About 15 minutes later,
I was at her apartment.

She wasn't there, and her
apartment had been ransacked.

Someone could have killed her
and hidden her body

in the meantime.

And as far as that goes,
gentlemen,

your alibi
isn't really worth much.

-Okay, that's German actor
Thomas Reiner

as Inspector Silvestri
interrogating all the men.

And of course,
all the men look guilty

because they all have secrets,

and also because Bava does
those Sergio Leone style

extreme close ups
of their nervous faces.

This movie was mostly financed
by West German investors,

and they were
apparently expecting it to be

a traditional crime picture

in the style of the British
mystery writer Edgar Wallace,

who was extremely popular
in Germany.

There were about five
Edgar Wallace movies

released
every year in Germany.

They were called Krimis,

and the reason I mention it

is that Edgar Wallace
had written a novel

in 1930 called "Whiteface,"

that became a giallo
book release in 1933.

Um, you know,

most crime thrillers became
gialli at one time or another,

but "Whiteface" was rereleased
by Mondadori in 1963,

right when the script
was being written

for "Blood and Black Lace"

and "Whiteface" has
a masked gunman who looks like,

you guessed it,
the killer in this movie.

My point being,
the Italians steal

everything from everywhere.

So the topic in this break
is we're at 38 to 42.

Team Bava is ahead in
the Battle for the Black Glove.

And the topic is
law enforcement.

giallo films are famous
for featuring clueless cops,

stern cops,
but never corrupt cops.

Which is strange
because they do have a lot

of corrupt cops in Italy.

So, Troy,
you're up for Team Bava.

Tell me about Thomas Reiner
and the cops in Bava films.

-Well, I think the edge
that Bava has over Argento

when it comes to the police
in his films

is that the police
really don't have much

of a presence in general.

So I think
that's kind of a plus.

In this particular film,

because we're dealing with
a movie that,

yes, it has the West German
financing involved.

It ties it in
with the Krimi films,

which is not a consistency,
by the way.

It's, you know, crime thriller
films based on Edgar Wallace.

Um, they wanted to have that
kind of police presence in it.

And so Thomas Reiner
makes sense.

He's a German actor.
He represents that part of it.

You know, honestly,
when it comes to comparing him

with, uh,
Enrico Maria Salerno

"The Bird
with the Crystal Plumage,"

Enrico Maria Salerno makes
a better impression.

It has to be said
he's a very charismatic actor

and he makes for very likable
character, I think,

as much as
a cop can be likable in a film.

Um, but in terms
of this particular movie,

he is kind of this plodding,
emotionless,

but also very judgy character.

Um, kind of, you know,
implying along the line that,

well, they, you know,
they brought it on themselves

because they lived
this kind of lifestyle

and everything else, uh,
which is sometimes mistaken

as kind of the director's
point of view, which it isn't.

I don't think that's true.

Okay.

So you think the West Germans
said,

"You need a couple
of German actors.

We want you to use a couple
of German actors in this movie."

And they said, "Okay,
well, you can be the cop."

-It 's the part nobody wanted.

-Alright, Claire,
you're due for a rebuttal.

Alright.

Is your cop better
than Troy's cop?

-Well, first,
I really need to --

to address, like,
an elephant in the room here.

We're all thinking when
we look at Inspector Silvestri,

Liam Neeson in "The Naked Gun,"
right?

Like, every minute that he's on,

he's hilarious.

He doesn't even have to do
jokes.

I find him totally hilarious,
but.

So, in a sense,

Inspector Silvestri
is a very good giallo cop.

Specifically because he --

he becomes so
totally irrelevant.

-Yeah.

-Um,
which is great and very funny.

But the problem is that he's
in way too much of the movie.

So quite a few of these scenes
are these long, dry,

you know, it's like
something out of "Dragnet" and,

um, it's too much, actually.

And it's way too much
for a movie --

The really strange thing
about "Blood and Black Lace"

is there's 50,000 people in it
and no protagonist.

There's like,
no one to latch on to.

There's no hero of this movie.

There certainly is
no reluctant detective.

Morosini is really great
because he understands that

what he's got to do
is weaponize Sam Dalmas.

He just winds him up
and lets him go.

And then we get the movie
we're expecting to see

and the case gets solved.

-And Morosini's --
Morosini's mustache

just makes
an incredible impression.

It's something -- His whole look
with the -- with the fedora,

he does a great job
at feeling like

he's coming out of
another movie, an older film,

a more classical noir,

and I think does a better job
at clashing

with kind of the evolving
modern aesthetic and society

that is in
Argento's giallo films.

So I really like
his kind of weird presence

and how it hangs
over the protagonist.

-The saving grace
with Silvestri's scenes,

which I agree, they're the least
interesting part of the film,

but it's how Bava shoots them,

so, you know,
he's able to take a bland,

dull sequence and always find
an interesting angle,

interesting composition,
good lighting, and make it work.

Um, whereas the a --

A lot of police investigation
scenes in these movies,

they tend to be the weak part.

-What do you think, Lars?

-I mean, I admire the fact

that you guys are
such big fans of cops,

and your support of cops
is truly inspiring.

But I do, I really do agree
with Troy's point that,

like, cops are best when
they have the least amount

to do in a film,

and I think he kind of comes in
and he's a bit of a curtain,

you know,
bringer down curtain raiser.

Um, you couldn't just have,

like, wall to wall kills
and action in the movie.

So you have to have something
that comes through

and is a palate cleanser.

And that's what
the boring cop is in this,

as in a lot of giallos actually,
is kind of a palate cleanser,

which kind of helps us move
from place to place.

But you guys love cops,
I appreciate that.

Um, for me, I am fine with the
cop just being a curtain raiser.

-He has to fall back on jokes.
-Okay.

-To get the points.
-It's pathetic. It's really sad.

-I'm into the crazy idea that
we're doing

an entertainment show
or something on your network.

-Alright, I'm gonna have to say
for cop sequences,

Argento gets the nod
because bring in the perverts.

That guy is just
so much more interesting

than Inspector Silvestri,

even if you're trying to show
cluelessness in the copdom.

Out of the ten, I'm gonna
give a seven to Argento

and three to Bava on cops,

because I think Bava was just
totally uninterested in cops,

whether they were good
or bad or whatever.

They were just cops.

So that brings it to 45-45
and, um...

-Ooh!

-And now we're
going to go back to the movie.

But I would like
to put in a word for Denmark,

because I love Denmark.

And out of those German Krimi
based on Edgar Wallace novels,

32 of them were actually made
by a Danish film company

called Rialto that had been
formed in Copenhagen in 1897.

Constantin Philipsen,
the founder,

was one of the earliest
European filmmakers.

And it's kind of strange
because after World War II,

the Danes didn't
really like the Germans.

So if you go to the
Resistance Museum in Copenhagen,

you'll see just how much
they despised the Germans.

So the idea of
a Danish capitalist dominating

the popular culture in Germany

in the post-war years
is kind of ironic.

And that's it.
We're at 45-45.

We're going to go right down
to the wire.

And now we return
to the Mario Bava classic

"Blood and Black Lace,"

which was released in Italy
under the title

"Six Women for the Murderer."

Roll the movie.

Troy, do you have Italian,
Troy?

Does anybody here
have Italian?

-Just say it in Italian?

-Can you say "Six Women
for the Murderer" in Italian?

-I can do it.
I don't know if it's very good.

-But I can --
-Try it.

-"Sei donne per l'assassino."

-I appreciate the fact
that you do not use

Italian titles in your book.

Some of -- Some of the hardcore
giallo people

will only use the long
Italian titles,

and we end up having to use
Google Translate

'cause we don't know what movie
they're talking about.

-Right.

9:00.

-Why must we sit in the dark?

As if we weren't
scared enough already...

-Do what you want,
but please try to keep calm.

-How are we supposed
to keep calm?

Doesn't what's happening
bother you?

-I'm frightened too.

Don't think I'm not.

But getting hysterical
doesn't help.

-If only the men
would come back.

We're all women left alone.

-Hello?

Oh, Mr. Morlan, at last.
What happened?

What?

But...

But how can they?

I mean...

I mean, on what grounds?

I see.

Alright.

Alright.

Of course.

Alright, don't worry.

Goodbye.

They are holding
all five of them.

-But why?

-The police obviously think
one of them is the murderer.

-I thought so.

-Madam...

please, can we go?
-Oh.

Oh, yes, yes. Go.

-Goodbye.

Goodnight.
-Goodnight, madam.

-How I envy them.
They live together.

At least they keep
each other company.

-I must go, madam.

-Alright.

-Wait. Listen, why don't you
come home and sleep with me?

-What?
I live a few yards from here,

and you want me to come out
into the countryside?

-Then I could come
and stay at your place?

-No, I'm sorry,
but I'd rather be alone.

Anyway, you'd be even
more afraid at my house.

-But aren't you afraid?

Isabella and Peggy
live with you.

Isabella has been killed,
and Peggy...

-Yes, I know.

But I don't think anything
would happen tonight.

All the men are under arrest.

And I'm sure the murderer
is one of them.

Goodbye, madam.
-Goodnight.

-Madam, I'm not going home.

I'll sleep here.
-No, you won't, dear.

You're going home
just like the others.

-I'm all alone.

I live out in the country,
not here in town.

-Now, Greta, listen to me.

Tomorrow we have
a very hard day ahead of us.

The show must go on, you know.
Now, look.

Isabella and Nicole were mixed
up in some ugly business

that has nothing to do
with the rest of us,

so we have nothing
to be afraid of.

Do you understand?
Go now.

Don't worry.

-Thank you. Goodnight, madam.
-Goodnight.

-Goodnight.

Be careful.

-Good evening, miss.
The marquis rang to say

he'd be detained in town
by an engagement.

-I know. I'll dine alone.

-Immediately, miss.

Hello? Hello?!

-Your tea, miss.

-Just a moment, please!

Come in.

It's alright, Charles.
I'll take care of the rest.

-Yes, ma'am.

-So the beautiful but dead Greta
is played by Lea Lander.

She uses a different name
in the credits,

who was a German model,

and the reason
her character name is Greta

is that she was famous
among Italian directors

for bearing a striking
resemblance to Greta Garbo.

She actually moved to Italy
just to do this movie

after studying acting in Munich
for five years.

So one thing
you notice about this movie

is that there's never really
any grieving when somebody dies.

There's hardly even any sadness.

Um, Bava has been accused
of cynicism, sadism,

and so has Argento
for that matter.

So let's make
that the next topic.

Are these guys sadists?

Is sadism part
of the giallo list of tropes,

and is sadism a good thing
in a giallo?

And if so,
who's the better sadist?

Bava or Argento?

So, Sam, you're up,
speaking for Team Argento.

-Well, I don't know if cynicism
and sadism are the same thing.

-Well it's not, no.

-I think they are cynical
in the way

that the societies
are functioning

within the movies themselves.

In "Blood and Black Lace,"

No one's really friends,

and everyone's trying
to hide something.

So the second someone dies,
they think,

what is this going to reveal
about me?

So everyone's concerned about
themselves.

In Crystal Plumage, Sam Dalmas
is not trying to solve it

because he's out
for the good of his heart.

He's --
He has main character syndrome.

He's like
this is now about me.

I'm just obsessed with myself

and want to continue
trying to solve this case.

Um, in in respect to sadism,

I think it's essential

because the -- the murders
have to hurt in order

to invest
us
in their cause,
and we have to feel the pain.

We have to feel scared
for the characters and we do.

I think both are something,
you know, it's hard.

I mean, I'm Team Argento,
but this stuff's got to hurt

and they both
do a great job of making it so.

-They don't seem
to have families.

No one has families.

We're never concerned about
any of the model's siblings

or parents or...

-Okay, Lars, you're next
in line for rebuttal.

Is your guy more heartless
than the other guy?

-Well, I think Bava's making --

"Bird with the Crystal Plumage"
is more realistic

than "Blood and Black Lace"

"Blood and Black Lace"
is a diorama.

You know,
it's a pageant in a lot of ways.

It is, um, uh,
it's like a View-Master slide

where we're seeing this,
you know,

this very sort
of beautiful sort of 3D world.

And what Bava's really doing is
he's putting sex and violence

together in the same package.

Sex and violence in every shot.

So it's a bargain in a way
that, um, in a way that

"Bird with the Crystal Plumage"
is not so much a bargain

because in
"Bird with the Crystal Plumage,"

you get a little sex,
although not much sex, honestly,

uh, and then you get
a little violence,

and then maybe you get
a little hint of possible sex,

and then you get
a little violence.

Uh, Bava's really giving you
sex and violence

all nutritiously put together

in the same bite
every time, every single time.

And I think that's
really the key to --

to what we might call
sadism in this film.

Sex and violence
on the same fork.

-But you do get it
pretty explicitly in Plumage

when they're in bed together.

And his mind keeps
going to this.

And, you know,
at the end of that scene,

they're smiling
and cuddling in bed

like it would seem as if
the memory got him going a bit.

So I think the relationship is
pretty clear.

-I get the impression between
Suzy Kendall and Tony Musante

that their --
that their sex is not working.

It's not very satisfactory.

I mean, certainly I don't feel
the chemistry between the two,

but also just get the feeling
that, like, they're not --

they're cuddling a little bit,

but he's not able to do the deed
because of his...

-He's got to solve this case.

-You've got to solve the case
before you can, you know.

-Yeah, I mean,
Musante is like both creatively

and sexually blocked
until he gets stimulated

by this horrific murder
of this woman

in this white catsuit
rolling around on the ground.

Um, the thing is that in --

in practically all Argento
movies,

sex is sort of like
this impossibility.

There's always this coldness.

Any of the ostensible couples

are always at each other's
throats,

or not quite connecting or sort
of running away from each other.

You know, like the
most intimate anybody ever is,

I think in any Argento movie
probably is in "Deep Red."

And we all know why it would be

that Daria Nicolodi
is the recipient of just like --

like just the meagerest amount
of warmth

finally gets squeezed
out of one of these movies,

but they're always fighting
each other.

It's like a Tom and Jerry
relationship, almost.

And then, um, there's like one
scene where you kind of see that

they're putting their clothes
back on, but maybe.

Maybe not. Who really knows?

It's not very intimate,

but I think Argento's
world is a world

where love is
sort of impossible.

Intimacy is dangerous.

It may be hard
to even conceive of,

and the catharsis of violence

is so much more satisfying
and available.

-Well,
and that's the way with Argento.

"Opera" was kind of his movie
about AIDS in that sense,

because it came out
during the height

of the AIDS sort of epidemic,
it was going on.

-Are we grieving for anybody in
this movie?

-In this movie, honestly.
Not particularly.

I don't think -- I think
Bava has always been very much

a non-judgmental moralist
in the sense that

he's not interested in passing
judgment over the characters,

just likes to kind of set
them against each other

and see who --
who does what to whom.

-We're rooting
for the next kill

to be even better
than the previous kill.

-Okay, that's what I thought.
Which is cynical.

Alright. Alright.

And this time,
as I total up the points,

I'm going to add that
Lea Lander, who played Greta,

was also in Bava's
1974 film "Rabid Dogs,"

which was unfinished
at the time of Bava's death.

But she loved Bava so much that
she obtained the rights to it

and helped to score it
and edit it and get it released.

And she really pushed
Bava's son

Lamberto Bava
to help her with it.

And all the cuts
of "Rabid Dogs" that exist today

owe a debt to her efforts.

Alright, I'm going to say who
has the coldest characters

in these giallo films?

I'm going to say that
was another tie round.

So that's, uh,
that's going to be 50-50.

-That's a controversial call
right there.

-Huh?
-That's controversial.

-Is that a controversial call?

-Yeah.
Yeah, it is, it is, it is.

-I think they both
had very cold --

-No it's controversial.

- Okay.
- Take our word for it.

It's controversial.

-So in the movie
we're watching,

all the men are in jail and yet
another model gets killed.

So the puzzle gets more
and more complex,

which all good giallo
films should be.

Roll the flick.

One thing I do not like
about this movie

is that all the male voices are
dubbed by one guy, all of them.

And I mean, he's good.
He makes them different.

And he's a famous dubbing
artist, Paul Frees.

But, um,
wouldn't you like to hear

Cameron Mitchell's
real voice in this movie?

-Yeah, of course.
-Paul Frees.

I think he worked for Disney.

-Oh,
he didn't just work for Disney.

He's the voice of the
Haunted Mansion in Disneyland.

And --
-He's the Haunted Mansion?

-Yes, and he narrated
"Doctor Phibes Rises Again"

and "War of the Worlds."

-I know he did
Francis the talking mule.

-Yeah and Morocco Mole.

-Who's Morocco Mole?

I don't know Morocco Mole.

-Do you guys
really not know that?

He is the sidekick
of Secret Squirrel.

Obviously.
-Sorry.

-I know he's
the Pillsbury Doughboy also.

-And he narrated
"The Shaggy Dog."

-He was everywhere.
-Yes.

Maybe that's what made
him such a good narc.

He was also a narc.

-What? He was a narc?

-Yeah.
He died in 1986.

But it was revealed
later he was an undercover agent

for the Bureau of Narcotics
and Dangerous Drugs

throughout the 1960s.

-Wow, and that was a huge time
for drugs.

-And that was a huge time
for drugs in Hollywood, so.

-Morocco Mole
would not approve.

-Look at how the murderer
tortured her.

He must have used
a red-hot poker.

He must have been a madman.
-Or a sex maniac

and homicidal fury.
-Against beautiful women.

-Yes.

Perhaps the sight of beauty

makes him lose control
of himself and kill.

We'll have to start
all over again.

-Excuse me, sir, if you want
to see the footprints

we found in the garden,
we're ready now.

-Let's look at those footprints.
-The killer drove up to here.

The footprints show
that he started here,

got out, and walked up
the embankment to the farm.

They match the footprints
we found at Morlan's villa.

-Are you sure?
-Absolutely.

We have the proof
in the plaster cast.

-I could have sworn
that the murderer

was one of
the five suspects we have.

-Do we have to let them go?
-Of course.

This time they've got
a really foolproof alibi.

I gave it to them.

-Morell, Richard.
-That's me.

-You want to check it?
-Of course, I'll check it.

-Max Morlan.

-Yes? Come in.

-Mr. Morlan, I would like
to speak to you for a moment.

-Yes, darling. Come in.

-Mr. Morlan,
I'm a calm person.

I'm not nervous.

But the thought
that a sex maniac

is prowling around
your fashion house?

Well...I don't like it.

I'd like to take
a short holiday.

I have already booked a flight
to Paris for tomorrow.

-To Paris? Very well, Tilde.
-Thank you.

-By the way...uh, you still live
with the Countess?

-Yes. Why?
-Oh, nothing.

Except, uh, a short while ago,
while the count was alive,

I visited there frequently.

Lovely place.

You know, from the terrace
you can see all of Rome.

-Yes. I'd rather see the roofs
of Paris at the moment.

-I understand.
Have a nice time. Bye-bye.

-Goodbye.

-I burnt Peggy's clothes.

There's nothing left to show
that she was here.

Then I had to do something else.

I had to get her out of here
to give you an alibi.

And then I...killed Greta.

-Perfect.

-Perfectly awful.

I don't know how I did it.

As if it wasn't bad enough to
find Isabella in the wardrobe...

I nearly fainted.

-I wanted to tell you
about it, but I couldn't.

By the way, how did you manage
to carry Peggy to Morell's farm?

-Well, I -- I didn't.

I...
somehow got her into the car...

and Greta did the rest.

-Why did you pick on Greta?

-Well...

she was alone in the house,
that's why.

-Well done.

The police think
it's the work of a sex maniac.

-First. Second. Third. Fourth.

Stop it!

Oh!

Oh! Oh, darling.

Darling, what's the matter? Hmm?

Kiss me.

What's the matter, darling?

-What a mess.

All because of that idiot,
that witch Isabella...

the blackmail...
money she wanted.

-Money. Money.
Too much money.

She should have realized
when she found out about...

that my husband's death
wasn't an accident.

That it was dangerous and unwise
to ask for that money.

But no, no, no.

The more that we would give her
the more she wanted.

She asked for it. She did.

-She was on top of us.

Too hard, my darling.
She squeezed too hard.

-Mhm. And the diary.

That damn diary!

If it hadn't been
for that damn diary...

Ah, it is done now

and we have nothing
to worry about, my darling.

Nothing to worry about.

-No, you're wrong.
You're wrong!

We'll never have any peace...

until we've given
the police their murderer.

-Peace? Ha, ha, ha.

-Chris, listen to me.

We'll never get away with it

unless they find the maniac
they're looking for.

Never.

Until they do,
they'll keep their eye on us.

You must remember
all the victims worked for us.

But while they have
no evidence against us,

the whole thing
has blown sky high.

The press, the scandal,
the salon being closed down.

We've got to find a way out.

-What are we going to do?

Oh.

I know, darling.

We're going to fly to the moon.

-We've got to act again
one more time.

You've got to do it.

-Oh, no.
-Yes.

I'm still being shadowed.

Now don't worry, darling,
we'll find an alibi for you.

Now don't worry.

-Oh, no, Max, no.

You can't ask me to do
a thing like that.

I can't do it.
I can't do it, you know!

-You've done it before.

-I've done it before.

I've done it before, but
that was different, you know?

Because you were in danger,
I had to do it...

do it because unless
I hadn't done it,

everything would have
been lost forever.

Oh, only my love for you
gave me the strength.

But it was horrible.

Horrible!

-Listen to me, you little idiot.

Listen.

There's more danger now
than even before.

More!

If you don't listen to me,
everything...

this horrible nightmare...

everything...

useless.

Useless!

-Wow.

You know, when you're watching
the movie for the first time,

this would seem
to be the reveal, the climax.

But Marcello Fondato, the writer
is not content with that,

so he's going to twist
it some more.

Fondato had already written
"Black Sabbath"

for Mario Bava in 1963.

He was a heavyweight
in all genres.

He would later go on
to his own directing career,

mostly doing comedies,

but he was considered one
of the top craftsmen in Rome

when it came to scenarios.

He really didn't get much credit
because Bava

was more a painter
than a storyteller,

and so the plotting gets
short shrift.

So this will be
the last round

of the
Battle for the Black Glove.

Prior to the real conclusion
of "Blood and Black Lace,"

and I want to make sure that
we've covered everything.

Have we talked about how Bava

is in love with the zoom
and the slow pan.

I don't think we have, and how
he couldn't afford a dolly,

so he mounted a camera
on a child's wagon.

Um, we did the gloved killer,

the somber
but ineffective detective,

all the dead women
in fancy bras,

the fashion house
disguising aristocratic decay,

the jazz score,
the ruination of beauty.

So let's talk about motives
for murder.

We now have two killers,
and they both have motives.

How important is the murder
motive for Bava or for Argento

when they set out to do their
beautiful set pieces of death?

And you're up, Lars,
representing Team Bava.

-I think for Bava it's so
important that he actually

does have motives
that are based on real things.

Sex, money, pride, status,

these are -- these are
real reasons people kill.

I think in a lot
of Argento movies,

what you end up with
are motives

that are sort of based
on a dilettantish

sort of understanding
of psychoanalysis.

Very much kind of, uh,

the kind of person
who would read, like,

an article in
The New Yorker

"Well, people probably kill
for this reason."

Whereas I think what
we have Bava doing

is taking it down to,
again, Sam, if you don't mind,

street level,
as you said earlier.

Uh, is that Bava is really
concentrating on the elemental,

uh, things that make us kill
and in fact, make us live.

Uh, and Argento is
kind of locked in his world

of being kind of,
Oh, let's be sort of tourists

through what we think
of as the deep recesses

of the psychoanalytical mind,

as we understand it, based on a
few, uh,
Life
magazine articles.

-Okay. And, Sam, it's your turn
to represent Team Argento.

-Well, I think you got
these Bava banana heads,

and they say something
like "elemental."

And what they really
mean is old hat.

-Name calling, wow.
-They're stuck in the classical.

They're stuck
in the old fashioned.

We're talking greed
and fidelity, betrayal.

And we've seen
a million stories like that.

And Argento likes to play
around in our traumas

and our kinks
and our psychology.

And maybe it's
a little surface level,

but it provides a lot more
interesting motive than just,

uh, "Ooh,
I hope I get my wife's money."

-Alright, now everyone can join
in on motive.

-I mean,
if you believe bullshit,

then that sounds really good,
but I --

I don't agree with that at all.

-I think,
as Lars was saying, you know,

we're getting into
the real sort of nitty gritty

of the -- of the human psyche,

the things
that really motivate us.

-But when in doubt, by all means
throw the word trauma around.

-Well, trauma,
I mean, it sounds nice.

It sounds very artsy
and sounds very, you know,

sort of upper crust.

Um, but no, I think ultimately
breaking it down to money, sex,

you know,
desire for status and wealth,

those are things that actually
they have a lot more currency,

I think, as opposed
to this kind of pop psychology.

If you like your Freud, that's
fine, but, you know, whatever.

-It just, uh, it has a short
shelf life is the problem,

is this kind of
pop psychology stuff.

There's going to be
different understandings

about these psychological
dynamics,

but it's a constant pride,
sex, money, status.

These are the kinds of things
that Bava's working in.

And that's why his work as
a serious artist, uh, will be --

will go down to the wire
100 years from now.

100 years from now,

people will still be
watching Bava films

while Argento is just forgotten.

-I mean, I think
it's interesting that you called

setting the tone
for the next decade of giallo

a short shelf life.

-Yeah, and speaking
of dilettantish understandings,

since when is the giallo
a slice-of-life drama

It's not supposed to be
realistic.

We're not doing "Serpico" here.

It's abstract. It is arty.
It comes from the gut.

It's like an abstract expression
of this kind of cultural rage

that was a product
of that exact time.

It certainly --

I think if you told anyone

that you were trying
to associate realism

with the giallo subgenre,

you'd be laughed
out of the room.

-Well, we are discussing
the deeply realistic

"Blood and Black Lace"
right now.

So, I mean, I'm not trying
to say that realism is the key,

but I am saying
that actual motivations,

even in a stylistic
and a highly stylized setting

are still important.

It's important
for us to kind of understand

these motivations even
when we are watching something

that's this deeply stylized.

And I have agreed.

I think that
"Bird with the Crystal Plumage"

feels more realistic.

It's more mundane.

You know, it's more
of the kinds of things

that actually happen to us
in real life.

But who wants to go to
the movies

and pay to see something like.

-I can look out the window.
I too --

-You look out the window
and have witnessed

a murder in an art gallery?

Yeah, I think we all --

At this point,
I think we all have.

-Several, in fact.

-I thought that the giallo was
all about abstraction

and absurdity and perversity

and something that,
like, comes from the imagination

and shocks you
and surprises you.

I feel uncomfortable
with this thing

that Ernesto Gastaldi says,

you know all respect to him,

that the giallo is supposed
to have this airtight,

believable conclusion.

This is the opposite of what
practically every giallo fan

I've ever talked to has said.

I understand, you know,

he's coming from
this background.

He's an Italian.

He's connected to
that literary tradition.

But I think
that for most modern viewers,

the giallo is
neither airtight nor realistic.

-You don't care --
-I don't think it should be.

-You don't care about
the puzzle.

You don't care
if the puzzle makes sense.

-It can be puzzling.

But I don't think
it should make as much sense as,

like, a Agatha Christie
drawing room mystery.

-No.
-But it should be a machine.

Fulci called giallo plots
mechanical, and it is a machine.

And if the machine
just kind of just sort of spins

out at the end
and just sort of peters out,

that's a really unsatisfying
suspense machine.

Whereas if it actually
does sort of lock up,

the motivations make sense.

The -- The --
Actually the plot in this,

if you look at it, you talk
about sex, money, status,

all of these things lock in

when we find out
the the killing situation.

-But that doesn't make it
giallo .

-"Money, Cash, Hoes,"
as the song goes.

-I'm sorry.
-A lot of different genres

have that sort of,

"Oh, the pieces should fit
together."

-Yeah.
-What makes it a giallo ,

I think if the motivations are
too mundane,

it risks staying in the realm of
traditional detective fiction.

And if they're
not perverse enough,

it becomes like
a regular slasher movie.

-Look, not every giallo
can be as airtight

and logical
as Umberto Lenzi's "Eyeball."

I think we can agree with that.
-And I don't want them to be.

I don't think
that they should be.

-The masterpiece of realism
in that particular case.

The motivation is perfect.

-So you prefer
quirky people with psychoses?

-I think that's what's
associated with the subgenre.

I do prefer it personally,
but I also think that

that's what the giallo sort of
means to most people.

-That's what it's about.

-I think seeing my own attack
depicted in a painting

setting me off into
a brain-breaking killing spree,

it's just much more fun.

-You have a very strange
idea of fun.

-Alright.
-That's for damn sure.

-And we're also talking about
the difference between modern --

modern society
and 1963 society, aren't we?

But I'm going to do
the totals now and point out

that "Blood and Black Lace"

was a box office bomb
when it came out.

It was not even
in the top 100 films for Italy

in the year 1964,
made less than $200,000.

But man,
that was, uh...

I think the two teams in this,
in this discussion,

were talking
about two different things.

-Um, I think what was right
for Bava

may have not been right
for Argento

because of the time difference,
because of the six year,

the six-year change
in the culture.

So I'm going to call that a tie,
I think.

-Oh, come now!
-No.

Well, I tend to --
I tend to side with Argento,

to tell you the truth,

on it being a more interesting
way to account for murder,

uh, and a more, you know,
more cinematic way

for it to count for murder.

Um, but I think that, um,

Bava didn't live in a time
where it was --

Um, I mean,
we had not been through

the '60s hippie revolution
at the --

at the time
of Bava doing that movie.

So I'm sorry.
I'm going to call it a tie.

So it's 55-55,
but we still have one more.

-Do we still get paid?

-No.
-What?!

-But now --
Now we go to the true reveal.

And, um, it starts with what
was considered

the most shocking image
in the whole movie.

So roll it.

Ubaldo,
Ubaldo Terzano.

-Bless you.
-Did these beautiful...

-What?
What happened?

-He got a joke in there.
-He did?

-Who did?
-Don't worry about it.

-Alright.

Ubaldo Terzano did
these beautiful death images.

He was the cinematographer,

but he went to his grave

refusing to talk about
this movie.

Apparently, he and Bava
had a falling out over something

while they were making
this movie.

This would have been the fourth
movie that Terzano worked on,

but it would be the last one
that he worked on.

-It's sad actually.

-It's always sad
when geniuses can't get along.

-I know.
Is Terzano a genius?

-Well, I would say the colors,
the richness of the images,

and for a lot of the movie,
the camera is the killer.

So, yeah, Ubaldo Terzano
was a character in the movie.

-True.

-Oddly enough, Bava was known
for having non-screaming sets

because apparently most
Italian movie sets feature

frequent screaming episodes of
people screaming at each other.

-You don't mean
the death screams?

-No, I just mean
people screaming at each other.

Not in the movie, but apparently
Bava didn't like screaming.

-That was very unItalian of him.

-Maybe Ubaldo was a screamer.

Maybe that's what happened.
You know, who knows?

Are you -- Are you
surprised to...

see me alive, Max, my love?

Sure.

Your plan was ingenious.

The shop awning...

broke my fall.

-Please...

-Silence!

I know what you plan to say,

that you didn't do it,

but I know you did.

I know you did, because you knew
that I would be passing

by the ledge...
if there was any danger.

Remember?
Remember you told me to?

You told me to.

-Oh, please, you must listen
to me. You must listen.

-Huh? Yes, yes.

You had an ingenious plan.

If the police found my body,

everything would have
been solved.

Everything.
And you would have been free.

Now I understand why we had
to get married in secret...

in such a hurry.

You are so much in love.

So much in love,
yes, but with my house,

the apartment,
the salon, the money.

You loved everything I had.

Everything...

...but me.
-Chris, listen to me.

You're wrong, my darling.

I want you.

I love you.

It's been a terrible shock
for you, my darling.

It's terrible.

Christina, I love you.

To you, it was an accident.
Trust me.

Very soon, my darling...
we'll go away together.

Just the two of us,
like we always planned.

Uh...

please...

I want...

I want Inspector...Sylvester.

- Argento! Argento!
- Bava! Baba!

Agento! Let's go!

-I'm hearing more Bava.
-Argento!

-I'm hearing more Bava
than Argento.

-Bava, Bava!
-Okay. Alright.

-It's just easier to chant Bava.
-Oh, man, the crew --

The crew is in a frenzy.

-Great final sequence, though.

I mean, first,
the most cynical kill,

then the drowning
in the bathtub.

Then she's terrified by him.

Then he's terrified by her.

Then they trade words of love,

knowing that each one
wants to kill the other.

Then the gunshots,
then the death of him,

then the death of her
on top of him,

and then the dangling
red telephone shot

that ends the movie.

And as we wind up
the Battle for the Black Glove,

I would like to make it a rule

that in your final comments
on the film,

each person must say
why you think Bava ended

with the dangling red telephone.

A lot has been written about
the dangling red telephone.

Bava was asked about it and
he said he didn't remember it.

He didn't remember doing it.

So we're about to decide once
and for all

what the foundation film
of the giallo genre is.

And to make it fair, we're going
to give a full minute each.

Starting with you, Claire,
you're next.

Why is Argento
the founder of giallo?

And what's the meaning
of the dangling red telephone?

-Uh, I'm going to answer
that in reverse order.

-Okay.

-And I'm heavily riffing,
but I think it's worth noting

that in fascist era
Italian cinema,

there were these things called
the white telephone movies,

which were like these
really buttoned up,

tidy, hygienic, kind of
upstairs, downstairs movies.

And Argento later would riff
on this,

actually with, um, oh my God,
I'm forgetting her name.

But that's because
I'm an Argento person,

and actors are
like furniture and cattle to me.

But in "Deep Red,"
there's all this telephone stuff

with this tremendous
older actress,

and it's sort of like, um,
like this weird,

ironic juxtaposition between
the white telephone movies,

which are part
of Italian cinematic heritage,

and something like "Deep Red,"
which is like the new, right?

And so I think that's kind of
what's happening at the end of,

um, "Blood and Black Lace,"

you've got
this scarlet telephone dangling

in the midst
of carnage and despair,

and it sort of announces
the new era of the giallo,

which I think is really defined
by Argento's movie making.

I'm sorry. They made me.

-I forgive you.

-That was a lame whistle.
Okay.

-I'm -- I'm anti-whistle,
to be honest.

-Troy.
-You guys can keep talking.

Same -- Same --

-Ooh!
-Okay, good.

Troy,
same question.

You of all people should have a
dangling red phone explanation.

-Well, I think again,
it goes back to what

we were talking
about earlier with fascism.

You know, it's connecting
back to something

that was specifically a fascist
cinema, Italian tradition,

which was
the white telephone movies.

They were these kind of
upper crust,

um, you know, sort of
high-gloss romantic comedies.

Um, obviously they
weren't exported to the US.

They didn't have
any appeal outside of Italy,

but they were very successful
at the time.

And actually, one of the actors

who starred in a lot of those
films was a future director,

Vittorio De Sica,

who would be one
of the founders of neorealism.

So I think Bava is kind of
turning that on its head.

He's referencing back to this
period of time of fascist Italy.

Uh, this -- this long tradition
of the white telephones,

which was specifically seen
as kind of a status symbol.

You know, if you lived
in a modern, you know,

palatial sort of villa
or apartment,

you had the white telephone.

So here, he's having a little
bit of a perverse joke on that.

And it's not the first time
he did it either,

because it's very much
a central prop

of the telephone segment
of "Black Sabbath."

-So you're both saying
this is some kind of inside joke

that no Non-Italians
would ever understand?

-Pretty much.
Yes.

-Okay, so fuck everybody else
in the world.

-We're just gonna talk
about the white telephones

and the red telephones?

-And I think it goes
without saying

who is the creator
of the giallo?

It's obviously Mario Bava.

-Okay,
Sam, you're next.

-Uh, I think Bava is
absolutely foundational

to the --
to the genre of giallo.

I think he -- he did something
that would -- would pioneer.

But I think with --
with Plumage,

Argento did something
that set a tone and a tenor

for largely the amount
of giallo that follow.

A lot of those giallo or gialli
are much more like Plumage

than they are
"Blood and Black Lace"

in their nature and their
procedural and their motive.

So I think it's possibly
splitting the answer,

but I think in terms of
what we think of as the giallo

and largely what followed,
to me the answer is Argento.

-Lars, wind it up for us.

-Yeah.
I mean, I think that, you know,

often an art form

or a subdivision
of an art form like this

is characterized by a genius
who's then --

who brings these things
from the subconscious

and then brings it into
the world that we exist in.

So Mozart was a genius.

Salieri was not.

Argento is Salieri.

I don't think there's
any dispute here.

I don't think even
our panelists would argue that.

-Oh, boy.
-And then Bava is Mozart.

And I think we're all
in agreement on this, right?

-Absolutely not.
-I don't think so.

-And the red telephone,
I think there's also a really

sort of important angle here.

So Jacques Tourneur, who made
a lot of really wonderful films,

tended to sign his films
with a cat.

You would have a cat in his
films and a cat would show up,

and that was his artistic
signature.

If he puts the cat in the film,

that means he's signing it.

It's a work of his.

And I think you have this
with Bava,

with, uh,
"I tre volti della paura"

a.k.a. "Black Sabbath,"

He has the red telephone
sequence.

And I think that in this case,
it's very much a throwback.

And this is Bava signing
the film.

This is Mozart, a.k.a.
Bava signing this masterpiece.

-I think we're overlooking
something, though.

What's that?

-I just think that the phone
is Bava's real way

of telling us that this movie
is off the hook.

-Yeah.
-Ooh!

Agreed? Agreed.
-That's a point in our favor.

I feel like it might be.

-Now we're going to do
last minute -- These are your
last comments about why

your guy deserves the title
of originator of the giallo,

meaning originator of what
we see today,

as what we think of today
as the giallos.

And the same order,
Claire first.

-Well, I think that the populist
answer simply is Argento.

I mean, for us,
sort of like talking heads

to sit here in this room
and like,

parse all
this academic history and stuff.

You know, that's great.
We can do this all day.

But if you ask
the average horror fan,

what is a giallo they're going
to start describing a movie

that sounds more like
an Argento movie

than like a Bava movie
without even getting into like,

which of these guys
was more innovative

or more brilliant or something?

It's Argento's vision
that lasted

and that spread the farthest.

-Okay.
What's that vision?

What do you --
How do you describe that vision?

-We've been describing
it all night.

Why are you doing this to me?

Where have you been?

-I'm tired.
I'm going back to bed.

-Alright.
-Troy.

-Well,
I mean, it's not Bava's fault

that the public at large
is ill informed.

So this idea that --

Look, if -- if you're looking at
a giallo in terms of the story

and the psychology,
yeah, sure.

You can throw it
to Dario Argento, why not?

You know, he's the pampered,
rich kid.

He's always had things easy.
That's fine.

But Mario Bava was
a filmmaker of the people.

He was somebody who worked

with very little in the way
of resources,

made films that looked

absolutely luscious
with no money.

Argento starts,
after a certain point,

his budget starts to shrink
and look what happens.

Movies go way downhill.
He can't cut it.

So I think the fact
that ultimately, um,

if we're hung up on motivation,

we're missing the point,
which is that Bava

in this particular film,
"Blood and Black Lace,"

he creates the murder
set piece movie.

-And Claire,
to use your framing,

it's like if you were to talk to
any member of the general public

and say,
what is a -- what is a giallo?

It's probably going
to come down to it's a stylish,

colorful body count movie.

Uh, and we're looking at
two movies here,

both of which are stylish,
colorful body count movies.

But which one is more stylish,
more body count, more colorful.

And I think
if you look at those, certainly,

do we even need to continue
this farce?

Certainly
it's "Blood and Black Lace."

-I just still think
that without that element

of like absurdity, perversity

and not just the
the absurdity and perversity,

like within the psychology
of the characters,

but within the viewers
experience,

most people will tell you that a
giallo is delirious and feverish

and doesn't make
that much sense in the end,

and is full of twists.

And I think even you guys
have already agreed tonight

that Argento's conclusion
is vastly more absurd.

-You're making the argument
that absurdity trumps realism.

-I have been making that
argument and I will continue to.

-Are you new here?

Did you just tune in?

-You're saying that's what --
-Do you think that if I --

-You're saying that's what makes
Argento great.

-I'm saying that that's what
makes his movies

more identifiably or, like,
urgently giallo-esque.

Because if it's just a stylish,
nice-looking slasher movie,

then it's just a stylish,
nice looking slasher movie.

-From Italy.
-It has to be something --

-From Italy.
-Right, from Italy.

Excuse me?

-What does that mean?
-Okay.

-And listen, I think
in terms of the argument here,

I don't want to argue
about origination,

you know, origin, I think.

"The Girl Who Knew Too Much,"
"Blood and Black Lace,"

these are foundational pieces.

They helped declare
what the giallo was.

But I think in terms
of what we're talking about,

Argento sharpened it
and I think helped set the tone

for what it would become,
for what we largely think of it.

And for that
I gotta go to Argento.

-Yeah!
-He popularized it.

-But that's not the same thing
as creating.

-I agree with you.

-But he's not saying
popularizing.

He's talking
about taking all the elements

that Bava certainly,
like, brought to the surface

and putting them together

in the most identifiably
giallo configuration.

-Crystallizing, maybe.
-Oh, right, crystallizing.

I'm so sorry.

-You know, I think
if there was anything primitive

or unsatisfying about
"Blood and Black Lace"

that your arguments
would carry the day.

But I think that because
"Blood and Black Lace"

is such a fully
realized piece of art,

even though it was neglected
at the time,

that you guys
are going to get two more points

than they get on
the very fast round.

-Fair enough.
That's fair, that's fair.

-Boo!
-And the title goes --

The title goes to Team Bava!

- Bava! Bava!
- We have decided.

Alright.
So from now on.

-I want to throw things also.

-From now on, whenever anyone
asks who originated the giallo,

we all know the answer.

It was Mario Bava
because we proved it

scientifically tonight.

-I'm putting up the gloved fist!

We solved the mystery
of the dangling red telephone.

It relates to the white
telephone in Italian history.

Alright.
And in the drive-in mailbag,

I'm going to ask questions
of Team Bava.

Uh, so, uh,
Lars, you've been a curator

of exploitation films
and exploitation film screenings

longer than anybody
in the business.

Is there such a thing
as a forgotten movie,

a hidden gem
that no one knows about?

-I find them all the time,
and I really have to say,

it's almost as if
the past is creating new work.

Like it's almost -- It's so
spooky because everyone --

Like, I continue to find movies
that are just never heard of,

never seen referenced.

And I've been out there,
like, looking

and just new ones will enter
into the stream

all the time
that I've never heard of.

And I really started thinking
the past is up to something.

-Really?
Can you name one recently?

-"Hyperspace" by Earl Ornsby
from North Carolina.

-An Earl Ornsby movie?

-An Earl Ornsby sci-fi movie.
-Has Earl Ornsby pressed you?

-A Sci-fi comedy starring
Chris Elliott.

-I might have to take
your title back.

-No, no, no, no, Chris Elliott
and Paula Poundstone.

-Earl Ornsby, the redneck

North Carolina
amateur filmmaker?

-He's tired. He's tired.
-Yeah, yeah.

-Okay.
-I saw a great Earl Ornsby movie

with Chris Elliott
and Paula Poundstone

playing serious roles.

Why those two in
a sci-fi movie?

-You find it in a barn
somewhere in North Carolina.

-I found --
Even better, on the internet.

-You found it on the internet?
-I found it on the internet.

-Okay. Wow.

Tell people about those programs
you do in Austin.

Now that the original temple
of the cult movie,

the Alamo Drafthouse
on sixth Street in Austin,

has been taken over
by infidels non-film people.

-Well, Joe Rogan.
Is that an infidel?

-Well, he's not a horror fan.

Alright. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

-Yeah, yeah. No.
So Austin has, uh,

you know, against all our,

you know, we haven't
been fighting hard enough

because Austin is now
kind of the alt, you know,

manosphere, uh,
alt-comedy capital of the world,

and nobody likes it.

We all hate it,
but it will pass.

They'll all be going to,
I predict, Nashville next.

-Okay, I think they're already
there actually.

I was just there.

And, Troy, my question
for you is I first saw

or heard one
of your commentaries

when I was researching

"The Living Dead
at Manchester Morgue,"

which we had on the show,

and I just naturally
assumed you were British.

Maybe partly because
you have a Yorkshire surname,

but you're from a --
you're from a small town

in central Pennsylvania.

So how did you get so deep
into Euro-horror?

-It all goes back
to Mario Bava once again.

Uh, as a kid growing up
in the '80s,

I had occasion
to see "Baron Blood"

when I was very little,

and from there
I just sort of took an interest.

Um, Bava
is my favorite filmmaker.

He's somebody
that has inspired me

to write about movies,
essentially.

Um, you know,
getting into the European stuff,

getting into then,

you know, went from there
to Argento to Fulci

to Jess Franco
and all these different people.

And at this point,

I've written so many
different books

and done so many commentaries
on these films.

You know, it's just great
that I've had an opportunity.

I'm very grateful
and very appreciative

to have had an opportunity
to talk about this stuff

that means something to me,

because coming from where I come
from, let me assure you,

they don't know anything about
Mario Bava where I come from.

-Mario Bava is not big
in Johnstown, Pennsylvania?

-Only -- Only downtown
on Thursday nights.

-Okay.
And you have to tell us,

because of your
extensive researches,

best Bava movie
and best Argento movie.

You've written books
on both men.

-Best and favorite
are very different words,

but I'm going to go favorite.

I would say my favorite
Mario Bava film

is "Lisa and the Devil."

Beautiful surrealist masterpiece
of a film.

And the best Argento,
and my favorite Argento,

to me is "Deep Red."

-Yeah, okay. Thanks, guys.

I know you worked really hard,

but you delivered on everything.

And, um, I wish I could have
you all here every show

because it makes
my job much easier,

plus, I can blame you
on social media

for any weird opinions
that emerge.

But that's it for
the Battle for the Black Glove.

And that's it for me.

And that's it
for Darcy the Mail Girl

reminding you
that jellyfish have survived

for 650 million years
despite not having brains.

And that fact gives hope
to many people.

And the drive-in will never die.

Man in a cemetery
is wailing over a grave.

-Okay?

-Guy goes up to him
and he hears him moaning,

"Oh, why did you die?

Why did you have to die?"

The guy feels bad for him
and says,

"I'm so sorry for your loss,

but I noticed from the headstone

that your friend died
four years ago.

You must have really loved him."

The man says,
"Oh, I never knew him at all.

But he was my wife's
first husband."

-Yep, yep, yep.
-Alright, alright, alright.

I'm gonna have to go again.
I'm gonna have to go again.

Um...

Back in the Old West,
there was a fierce battle

between cowboys
and Native Americans.

And the Native Americans
captured one of the cowboys

and brought him back
to the village.

And the chief comes out
to greet the prisoner,

and he says,
"You must die in three days,

but you get one wish per day.

What is your first wish?"

And the cowboy says,
"Can you bring my horse over?"

And they bring his horse.

And the cowboy whispers
into the horse's ear,

and the horse runs off
to the town

and comes back
with a beautiful blonde.

And the cowboy takes
the blonde into a tepee

and has sex with her.

So on the second day,
the chief says,

"Okay,
you must die in two days.

What's your second wish?"

And cowboy asks for his horse
again.

He whispers
in the horse's ear again,

and the horse runs off to town,

comes back with
a voluptuous redhead,

and the cowboy takes
the redhead into a teepee

and has sex with her.

And on the third day,
the chief tells the cowboy,

"Well, you must die today.

So what's your third wish?"

And cowboy
requests his horse again.

And the chief says,
"This is crazy white man."

The cowboy grabs the horse
by his ears

and he looks straight into
the horse's eyes and he says,

"Now read my lips.

I said, bring posse!"

-No.

-You won. You won.
-Okay.

-♪ We are drive-in mutants
-♪ Drive-in mutants ♪

-♪ We are not like
other people ♪

♪ We are sick
-♪ Sick ♪

-♪ We are disgusting
-♪ Disgusting ♪

-♪ We believe in,
we believe in ♪

-♪ Blood ♪

♪ And breasts ♪

♪ And beasts ♪

-♪ Yeah, we believe in ♪

-♪ Blood ♪

♪ And breasts ♪

♪ And beasts ♪

-♪ If life had a vomit meter ♪

♪ We'd be off the scale
-♪ Off the scale ♪

-♪ As long as one drive-in
remains on the planet Earth ♪

♪ We will party like
jungle animals ♪

♪ We will boogie till we puke ♪

-♪ Boogie till we puke ♪

-♪ The drive-in will never die ♪

♪ We will boogie till we puke ♪

-♪ Boogie till we puke ♪

-♪ The drive-in will never die ♪

-♪ We believe in ♪

♪ Blood ♪

♪ And breasts ♪

♪ And beasts ♪

-♪ We believe in ♪

-♪ Blood ♪

♪ And breasts ♪

♪ And beasts ♪

-♪ Yeah, we believe in ♪

-Made in Georgia.