Original subtitles

- Okay. You ready for this? - How can you be?

You can do it.

Hello, darling.

-Hi, how are ya? -Hi. I'm great. How are you?

- Hello, gorgeous. - Hi, Grandpa.

- Come on in. - How are you doing?

Good to see you, baby.

I'm glad you came!

-Well, I-- -You look great, woman.

-Eh, thanks. -You do. You look wonderful.

-I'm good. -Mm.

It's good.

-Lulu, this is my daughter, Debi. -Hi.

This is my granddaughter, Amanda.

-Nice to meet you. -Nice to meet you.

Hi, Doris.

He's a wonderful person.

- Good to hear. - Yes, he is.

Aw, you're sweet, Doris, you're too nice.

Hi, Ruby!

He's a lovely man.

- Is he? - He is. Really nice.

- What? - I said, I saw all

-these gorgeous young ladies coming in here... -Yes, his family.

...and I walked by, and there you are.

I hope you are being... a good boy.

It's awful hard, but I try.

I-I agree, I agree.

I know you do.

- Have a good one. - Okay, Lorraine, take care.

That one has a mouth, and she's--

Takes all kinds when you're livin' in a community,

-ya know? -She's so nasty to her husband.

Of course, honey, of course.

- Don't you hesitate for anything. - Okay.

I'm at your total disposal.

We're just love to have you, girl.

It's an honor and a privilege.

Now, as far as the issue that you were accused of,

and I just wanted to ask if you did identify

as having those struggles

and, and how you felt about that.

- Did I have a battle with that? - Mm-hmm.

You better believe I did.

I don't know,

but I sure did. Absolutely.

And I used to fight with myself.

I said, "Why do you do this? This is not right."

I didn't want to do things that were bad or wrong,

but it, it, it just-- and it just seemed like what was so strange--

I couldn't-- I still haven't figured that one out,

but it seems so strange because there were times

that-- and I don't know the answer to it,

but it seemed like

that some of these little girls, for example,

would almost throw themselves at me.

Now, that might sound a little stupid,

but they wanted to learn things, and they were experimental.

They want-- Ya know?

And it-- to me, it was too much of an open temptation.

And I fell into it.

Yeah, there was things that happened.

- Oh, absolutely. - Mm-hmm.

We had quite an engagement, so to speak,

and, uh, we were very close, sexually.

Even though she was little... and she loved it.

Can I ask how old she was?

Well, she started-- I think she started around the age of 9 through 11.

Uh, how 'bout the, uh, the, the boy?

Can he come to another elephant?

Hey, Amanda, it's Mom.

If you could give me a call back as soon as possible.

Grandma is not doing well at all.

Um, not sure what to expect.

Alright, I love you. I'll talk to you later. Bye.

Well, what do ya think about that, huh?

There we get to see that dolly.

Is the pain a little better?

Okay, good. You were really hurtin' earlier.

My mom's life was like one of those crystals

that you can hang in the sun,

and you see different facets.

A lot of it is a mystery.

In the few times that I did ask her

to tell me the truth about things,

like my past, or my dad, or whatever,

she just got angry with me,

and she would just say there is no use in bringing up the past

because it's not gonna change what happened.

She knew so much more than what she ever expressed

because she wasn't allowed to express it.

My dad stole my mom's entire life.

She left with all of her secrets.

She knew so much

and she defended him until the day she died.

And I feel like she had a million and one regrets

because she never lived her life for herself.

The impact that my dad has had on our family,

I think, is devastating,

but we've never talked about it.

So we don't know the truth.

How do you change that?

It's funny when you think about, you know,

how Grandpa liked the burnt cookies.

Like, why was he strange like that?

Everybody else liked the normal ones,

but why did he like, ya know--

ya know, just different. He was always different.

So I'm just gonna go through some of the paperwork

that we got from Grandma.

There's all these papers

from McKean County in Bradford, Pennsylvania,

concerning Dr. William Flickinger.

Grandpa.

Did you know what he did in Bradford?

Well, when I started finding out about everything about him,

was when I was, uh, like, a junior.

But what happened?

Like, you don't know what happened.

No, all I remember is coming in to school,

and that's when I walked down the hallway.

Where all the football players were was where my locker was.

And he had-- They started sayin'--

They surrounded me and they said,

"We wanna do to you to what

your dad did to a-all those girls."

And, of course, Grandma didn't say a word of anything,

-so it was all just-- -But even you and your brothers,

-like, did you talk ab-- like, "Wh-What the hell happened?" -No.

We never talked about anything.

We were never allowed to see any newspapers.

I, to this day, I know nothing.

I just wanna try to line it all up,

see what happened.

Look at, ya know, some of these names.

I just-- I don't know.

I wanna know more about what he did up in Bradford.

I mean, it's crazy that you don't even know.

Thank you for calling.

-God. -For service, press one.

Hi, my name is Amanda,

and I'm looking for an article from the '70s.

You have reached the Filing Office

of the Commonwealth Court of Pennsylvania.

That far back, I can't make any guarantees,

but I could take a look.

I'm just looking for absolutely

any information around this case.

No, cannot find case number, no.

"Cannot find case number."

My family is from Bradford,

and there was something terrible that my grandfather did

in Bradford in the '70s.

Does the Bradford Library

keep any records of newspapers?

So it is all on microfilm?

Okay. Thank you so much for your help.

Yes, William Flickinger.

Was he a chiropractor?

He was, yes.

Yeah, I really don't remember much.

This was a long time ago.

In '75, he was convicted of statutory rape

of a 12-year-old girl.

So, since it was his first offense, technically,

all he got was two years' probation.

He did not spend a day in jail,

and just up and moved four hours away to Harrisburg

with a totally clean slate.

How the fuck was that allowed to happen?

I've always known my grandpa was creepy,

and that some things happened,

but it was so vague, and now that I'm looking closer

and finding concrete rape charges

that he managed to kind of weasel out of,

it's just scratching the surface.

I just need to keep looking.

Maybe I can hold him accountable.

He's still alive.

I never thought that I'd move back to Pennsylvania.

There's a lotta pain in my past here.

My childhood was difficult.

There was so much dysfunction in my family

and no communication about what was really going on.

I just felt this pressure to maintain this image

that we were this picture-perfect Christian family.

I just wanted out.

So a week after I turned 18,

I left my family, my faith, the state.

I eventually left the country.

Ooh!

My childhood dream was to be an ice cream truck driver,

uh, not a photojournalist.

But I love that I get to

make exposing the truth about something

a part of my job.

I managed to put enough distance between me and my family

to give me some healthy perspective.

I had this new understanding and language

to describe things that, for my whole life,

I thought were just normal.

Like, the way that some men treated me and my body,

that was actually assault.

Or my "touchy-feely" grandpa is actually a pedophile.

I was just starting to reframe this all

when my grandma died.

And it just set me on fire. I had so many questions.

So when my mom asked me to go to Florida with her

to take my grandma's ashes to my grandpa,

I saw my chance to go straight to the source.

If you can talk to it, and clapping your hands

- it'll go to work. Okay? - Okay.

I was so nervous.

- I was so, I was so nervous doing this. You? I--

Oh, my gosh. I was more nervous.

I think I was so nervous, I wanted to throw up.

-Are you serious? -Mm-hmm.

Because I didn't know what his reaction would be.

I thought, because of his anger, I thought he would just--

But he's never really been angry with you.

-That you've seen. -That I've seen.

Mm-hmm.

As far as younger girls--

Okay, this I wanna listen to.

Slightly hard-hitting question.

- Oh, that's the last one. - Whew!

Imagine what's goin' on in his mind.

No, you're not really.

As far as younger girls,

what about the girls in the family?

No, I had no problem, no problems with any of them.

Except one time with Debi.

I think she was 5 or 6.

I took a bath with her.

I know you don't.

And I took a bath with her,

-and I touched her in the bathtub. -Oh.

- Listen to-- Oh. - That was as much as it went.

She just loved the activity.

- It's-- I was 5. - And, uh, so,

consequently, she didn't feel it was wrong and I didn't.

-I know it was wrong... -Oh, my God.

- ...but I didn't-- - I couldn't help it

'cause she loved it and I loved it, so...

- Oh, my God. - That's as far as--

No.

See how much you're learnin' today?

That's what you get for comin' down here.

That's when I was like...

-I know. -..."We gotta go."

But I'm being very forward with you.

I'm not, I'm not hiding.

The earliest memory, I was, probably, 7 or 8 years old.

All I remember is me laying face down

on one of his chiropractic adjustment tables,

and I felt him doing something on my back,

and I realized that it was his penis,

and he was rubbin' it on my back.

I never thought in a million years

not even to tell my mom.

I don't know. From a child's mind... it was normal.

I think that how I was raised

definitely has given me a skewed view of what a marriage

or a relationship should be.

I was so sheltered,

never was allowed to really date.

And I definitely did not see a healthy relationship

with my mom and my dad, so I had nothing to go by.

And so, I got married at 18.

Ended up having my daughter, Angie, at 20,

and it was a very abusive relationship.

It was almost like jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

I had no other options,

so I moved back in with my parents.

We lived there for several years.

Because of what I experienced in my childhood,

I just wanted to do the right thing.

And I really did trust my mom.

I wanted to prove to myself that you can love a child

without invading them.

I think I wanted to prove to myself

that I could be a good mom.

Yeah!

Yeah!

With Mom, ya know, I feel bad about that relationship

because I feel like there isn't one.

I-I feel really bad how everything has gotten,

and I can't explain it.

Yeah.

I've always known that I've had Mom on a pedestal.

-And because I have, I have such anxiety around it... -Yeah.

...like, I'll be carrying on my day,

-wherever I am in the world. -Mm-hmm, yeah.

And it'll just hit me.

"Oh, my God... Did Mom fall down the stairs?

Oh, my God, nobody's there. Oh, my God. Oh, my God."

-And I just, like, freak out. -Yeah.

-Right. Yeah. -And I'll start crying. And be like,

"I have to get ahold of her, but it's, like, 3:00 a.m."

And I'm like, "Oh, my God, what if she died in bed?"

-Like... -Oh, my goodness.

-...that's not healthy. No. -Yeah, that's not healthy.

With Mom, it was,

it was just, like, you'd come home from New York,

you'd come home and you'd stay.

And, instantly, it was like the atmosphere...

-I had the gloves on. -...the atmosphere changed.

It was, um, "Amanda mode." That's what we'd say.

-"Amanda mode." -Mom's in "Amanda mode."

-Like, you guys, it's always tense. -Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Um, there's, like, this, this kind of air of tension around it of, like--

I think it's very passive-aggressive.

-Oh, yeah. -Yeah.

That's what I had to do to, to survive.

Oh, isn't this cozy and nice, Bill?

Yep.

I saw some old video footage

- of, of you when you had the hair thing. - Oh, yes.

And, like, I remember being like,

"What's wrong with Angie's hair?"

Like, just being a stupid kid.

It's like, "Why is Ange bald?"

-And-- -That is so embarrassing.

I don't think we've ever actually talked about that.

It was-- Honestly, I mean, for you to even bring it up--

- it's really hard. - I'm sorry.

- No, no, no! - I'm sorry.

No, I'm just sayin' it's,

it's not something that-- I'm sorry.

It's okay, I'm sorry.

-I can't put it back in, though. I'm sorry. -No, it's okay, it's okay.

These-- This is part of the healing, ya know?

Mm-hmm.

It was such a shameful, embarrassing thing

that I did, and it was like--

Oh, my gosh, it made me so ugly.

But I just hated, like--

Ya know, it made my self-esteem even worse.

Mm-hmm.

Part of Grandpa's video is you in our house,

and you're sittin' and playin' video games,

and he's zoomin' in and out of your head.

But I'm just kinda like, "What prompted him to do that?"

Yeah. Yeah. Did he know that

- that was a sign of what he had done? - I'm sure.

I don't just blame Grandpa. I, I blame Mom as well.

She subjected... her daughter,

put her right in

with the very person that hurt her the worst.

Mom put you...

-Put me right into-- Yeah. -...right in Grandpa's hands.

Like, we're gonna live with them,

and not only that, but

-I'm gonna let him and, ya know, Grandma... -Mm-hmm.

...watch my daughter while I go to work,

or go on dates, or whatever.

Go, Angie!

Higher... higher!

Higher!

Ya know, even as sisters,

the whole 10 years before you were born,

there was a lot that happened to me that you didn't know.

I went to visit Grandpa and Grandma when I was 9.

Mom flew me out there by myself,

and I stayed with them for a full month

in their motorhome.

Stuff happened while I was there.

He was, like, touchy-feely.

He'd say, "This is just a secret thing between you and I."

So we were traveling from one campsite to the next,

and we happened to stop at a place

where they were selling motorhomes.

And I went into the bathroom.

For whatever reason, opened up the cabinet

and there was a little, tiny lipstick under there,

and whatever possessed me,

or I thought to do this, I took the lipstick,

and I wrote in really big letters across the mirror, "Sex,"

in red lipstick.

And went back out,

and just stood there like nothing happened.

And Grandma just pulled me aside

and asked me if I had written on the bathroom mirror.

And I said, "Yep." And that was that.

She didn't ask me

why I did it,

but I felt like I was trying to tell the world,

and nobody was listening.

Mom and Grandma knew, they knew this was going on,

but there was never anything said.

It was almost as though he was protected.

I dealt with it the same way

that the rest of the family was dealing with it.

I bottled it up.

- I have a question for you. - If you if you...

have one or two words to describe our family,

what would they be?

Dysfunction-palooza.

-Yeah. -Hm.

When I was really young, Dad had a, a table.

-It was like an adjustment table... -Mm-hmm.

...and we picked it up to take it out,

and out fell of it a toy, um...

Like plastic dildo... with a sock.

That was in-- It was tucked inside a sock.

-And I looked at it, and I knew what it was immediately. -Mm-hmm.

And he just picked it up, and put it in his pocket.

When you grow up in a dysfunctional environment like that,

you don't know th-that it is

-because that's all you know. -Mm-hmm.

Like, how did you feel when you were younger?

-I mean, even t-- How did you manage that? -How can ya feel?

-I don't know how you feel. -Hm.

It's just like-- I guess it's like,

"This is happening in front of me.

I don't know what to do about it."

-Yeah. -'Cause it's not really my place.

-I don't know... what it is. -Mm-hmm.

But I felt, for a long time, that the best thing

that could've happened to us, as a family,

would've been if we had been taken out

by a firing squad in 1975.

Nothing terrible had happened.

We were still a unit.

We even sang in church as a family together.

And after we sang, the, the preacher took us up

and said, "Now look at this family."

That was our best.

From there, it just obliterated to where there's nothing left.

Ya know, we can all point blame at each other,

we can all blame Dad.

None of us would ever dare blame Mom.

Did Grandma ever open up with you about it?

About how she felt?

There was this one time when I was real little.

It was just a typical night.

And the bathroom door was open,

so I kind of peeked my eye into that little crack,

and I looked and I saw her

standing in front of the mirror

with a razor blade.

And she was just kinda chopping at her hair,

and crying, and her hands were bleeding.

So, I let the door go open a little bit,

and I was like, "Mom, please don't do that."

And she turned, and she was shocked that I caught her,

and she bandaged up her fingers, and she cleaned up,

and she hugged me, and...

she felt like she had failed us.

I know that that was somethin' that she carried with her.

We're less of a family than we've ever been.

And God forbid that the fallout just continues to grow.

Hello, darling.

- Hi, how are ya? - Hi. I'm great.

How are you? Hello, gorgeous.

Then your precious, wonderful mother

put this together.

So...

- There she is. - She was so pretty.

She was. She was a sweet doll.

Can you share some memories of Grandma?

Like, how did you guys meet?

We met at church.

They had a Bible study on a Wednesday night.

We started dating, and so, we were dating

for about, uh, three months,

and we-- then we got engaged.

Oh, she was so precious. I mean, so precious.

She was great with the kids.

She couldn't do anything wrong.

She was such a marvelous, wonderful woman.

What about your life before then?

What was it like growing up?

Hm.

Well, I don't know where I would even start with that.

Um...

my mom was this marvelous, wonderful, great woman.

She was fantastic.

Dad, he was always a busy guy.

He worked at Zippo lighters.

And, of course, he loved the girls there, too.

He went out with quite a few of the women, so.

He'd come home with lipstick all over his face,

and his clothes off, or his collars and stuff

'cause you know darn well he was smoochin' up

with the women at Zippo parties.

Although, Mom didn't complain any.

If she, she did, she didn't do it in front of me, but.

But anyway, that's beside the point.

He and I were not very close.

He wanted a girl so bad, he didn't want a boy.

And if I did something outta line,

I got a beating for it.

It was a tough time.

Um... this--

You can answer this if you want. I'm just curious.

Curiosity killed the cat.

- That's right. - Um...

as you were growing up,

did your attraction stay with children?

Yeah, pretty much.

I think most of my life it did, yes.

You know, I-I just couldn't seem to control it too much.

It just went that way.

Was there anybody that you ever

felt like you could talk to about it?

Did you ever open up?

I wished I could've.

I really did wish-- I-I wanted to talk to somebody,

but I didn't know who I could really talk to.

The girls were so special to me.

The girls were always so, so warm and nice, ya know?

So, I was explaining to of how babies came about.

And, uh, we more or less

experimented that at that point.

And, of course, naturally, she's a little bit--

Uh, just... feeling with her and so forth.

And then she would lay on top of me.

Because of all this... I've been thinking a lot about,

which I-I usually don't.

I feel like when I think about, you know, my own experience

being raped by--

It was around nine years ago, and--

by my friend's boyfriend at the time.

And

it was a mess, it was a mess.

It was-- Took me years to even, like,

use the "R word," and...

I do feel like I've dealt very well with it,

but, occasionally, it crops its head up,

and what it is for me is just that

the guy who did it and my friend, who was dating him,

who victim-blamed me when I told her about it, um...

It's just knowing that they don't--

Fuck.

It's just knowing that...

they do not think that they did anything wrong.

What's still missing is, is just, just that acknowledgment,

ya know, of... of, like, it happened,

ya know, from the people that were involved.

It, it fucking happened, and not having that,

it's just the gift that keeps on giving.

Truly.

It feels very crystal clear to me right now

why I'm making this film.

Just that acknowledgment.

I don't think that I'm gonna receive that closure for my own assault,

but if I can give that to... the women that suffered

at the hands of my grandfather,

if I can be the one to step forward,

and on the record, say,

"He did this. You can't fucking deny it."

If it gives them the peace of mind of, of knowing

that their pain is acknowledged,

and that the work they've had to do over the years,

and that weight that they've had to carry,

is acknowledged, then...

it's the very fuckin' least that I can do

as the granddaughter of this piece of shit.

These are letters for people that Grandpa may have impacted.

"Dear Blank, I'm writing to you as you may have been

"a past patient of William Flickinger,

"based on his paperwork.

"I discovered that he had abused

"scores of girls and young women,

"and I'm in the process of seeking accountability

"for my grandfather's actions,

"and helping those who have been abused by him

feel less afraid to speak out if they so choose."

I feel very nervous doing this.

Just feel like every one of these is

dropping a little bomb in these people's lives.

"If this message isn't relevant to you, please disregard.

"If it is relevant, we deeply apologize on behalf of our family

for what he put you or your loved ones through."

Have you talked to any of the people

that you may have hurt?

And maybe apologized?

That has not materialized.

Now, her brother,

has been the instigator to try and do that.

Who?

Paul.

That I should go. I should write letters,

or I should go and talk to these people.

And to a point, I can understand what he's comin' from.

But I haven't got the guts to do that.

Because if this opened up a can of worms,

well then, are they gonna decide to take this to court

and send me to prison for the rest of my life?

And that's what could happen.

But wouldn't that just be a consequence?

When I have...

thoughts about your grandfather,

he's still that big, bad boogeyman

in my childhood mind.

This started when I was 4 years old

at Herd Chiropractic.

I was, I was, I was little.

Mm-hmm.

So, he would see us either

at his chiropractic office,

which he ended up having my mom work for him,

which brought us in more.

He got so comfortable doing what he was doing to me

that he would do it in front of my younger siblings.

Mm-hmm.

And I remember the one time,

he tried to make it seem like it was a normal exam...

-Mm-hmm. -...where I had to take

my pants down or pull my dress up,

and, and, um,

I was crying, and I was like,

"Please, can I pull my pants up, please?"

-I was begging him, just bawling. -Mm-hmm.

I was so embarrassed, um...

So, all I remember is looking over,

and Matthew had come over,

and started beating on his leg,

-"Leave my sister alone, leave my sister alone!" -Mm.

Ya know?

And he grabbed him by his throat,

picked him up, and put him back in the chair,

and told him not to move.

And nobody knew.

And I'm thinking, "My mom is in the next room with Lois."

- Grandma. - So, for a long time--

Yeah. How can they not bust through that door and help me?

I didn't necessarily hold a grudge against your grandmother,

but I was like, "How could she not have known?"

Her name is not Lois. Did you know that?

- No! - Her name is Salesta,

and he hated her name so much

that he had everyone call her Lois

and made her go by Lois.

I'd love to say that I'm shocked, but I'm not.

So her name is Salesta.

-Thank you for that. Wow. -Yeah.

After everything he did,

not only to me, but to so many others,

I've realized it's not my secret to keep.

It was his.

Everyone has always said you have to forgive,

forgive or you're gonna burn in hell.

Fuck the word "forgive." I hate it.

What I need to do in my life

to get past the emotional barriers

that are holding me back at 4 years old, 6 years old,

being in a courtroom having to face him

while he sat there like this,

staring at me the whole time.

I would just love, in my lifetime, to hear him say,

-"I hurt you." -Mm-hmm.

"And I had no right to do that.

And I acknowledge that I hurt you."

So, I've been trying to make sense of

a lot of things, the timeline,

I've even been talking to a victim from your clinic.

But back in 1979,

I believe you took Bill to court

for a lot of sexual misconduct

that happened towards your employees and patients.

So, I-I'm curious if you know why he wanted to come here, to Harrisburg?

I think things were difficult for him there.

I think he was having difficulty there.

- Up in Bradford? - Yes.

Okay, but you-- they-- there wasn't any information

about the, the nature of what was going on?

Not at that-- Well...

I may have contacted his pastor,

and there may have been that, you know, "Be cautious,"

and things like that around.

-There was a warning. -Yeah, I think there was

a warning given to us that there could be some problem,

but I... I may have just brushed that aside,

and, and said I'd be careful.

-We were deceived to believe. -Well, well--

-We, we were deceived. -We, we had thought-- Before he came down,

we had thought he turned, you know, new leaf, that he--

-We didn't, didn't know that-- -I didn't know what happened up there.

Did you know what happened? I didn't know.

No, we knew there was problems, that's all.

Well, I didn't know what the problems were.

I was ignorant to that fact.

But if I would've known,

he would've never been in our office.

Ever.

When did you first recognize

that something was wrong?

Well, apparently, a, a young girl had come into the office.

This girl was 13 years old.

And he asked, he says, "Come on back, I'll check your spine."

And he had her take her blouse off and her bra off.

It was another patient, too, I thought was involved.

Well, we're talkin' about this right now.

But I thought it was another patient was involved

who-- that really made you so upset.

I don't know, but then just shortly after that time, Barb and I,

we had a housekeeper, and, uh, she was with the kids.

She went down the basement, and Bill was laying on top

of our 12-year-old girl.

- I just couldn't sleep. I was so angry... Oh, well, absolutely.

...that there could be a possibility that somebody

would harm one of my children,

or, or destroy our good name.

It really made me angry.

I called an attorney, and he came in, and brought Bill in,

and we terminated him right then.

-It probably was the next day. -Oh, no, on the spot.

And then filed a complaint with the Chiropractic Board.

And they had a hearing,

and he had many, many people come and defend him at that.

That caused a lot of tension between...

- Our friends. - ...our family and our friends like that.

Yeah, we weren't trying to destroy this man.

He was destroying himself.

They did take his license at that point.

And then life went on,

except emotionally getting over it.

I came to the place where I said--

I just-- I told God, "I give it to you.

Lord, I-I can't carry it. It's too heavy for me."

So he lost his license, but he did not go to prison.

What do you guys think would've been the ideal situation?

Well, I don't know, uh...

Prison. I don't, I don't-- I d-- I simply don't know.

My baser nature is I wanted to get a gun and shoot him.

The case with the Herds was one of a few

that he was involved with.

And ultimately, none of them resulted in anything

that would leave a mark on his record.

It just feels like the whole system failed.

There was nothing to stop him from crossing state lines

and getting a completely fresh start.

And that's what he did.

Him and Grandma packed their lives into an RV

and they left the whole mess that he made behind.

Cleveland, Ohio, on this first day of March.

Tulsa, Oklahoma, this beautiful state.

We're gettin' ready to go to work here in Charlotte

at the, uh, Craft Show.

Samples of what you can do with the Punch Connection.

Come on in to the counter, and we'll give you

the $10 gourmet waffle cutter.

Take home as many as you like.

You could use cabbage, carrots, celery.

Look, you're on TV.

Isn't that neat?

Now, if you take this same bagging process,

and we use it in our freezer.

They became traveling salesmen.

They went from one state to another,

living in different campgrounds.

And they were selling vacuum sealers

and rubber stamps at local trade shows.

And that's pretty much all that we would know

about Grandpa from those years,

if he hadn't brought his video camera with him.

Uh-oh, you girls are on "Candid Camera."

Turn around and be a star for me.

It isn't every day we get to have

movie stars in our midst.

Oh, I'm not no movie star.

She really wants you to tape her,

but she won't act like it.

Don't, no.

No, there's more.

Will you get that off!

See? You're scarin' her.

Come back to see us at the Craft Show.

We're here.

Um...

When I watch these tapes,

I see a man with a serious problem

who knows that he's not gonna get caught,

and I can't help but feel like

if there had just been some way for him to get help,

how much of all of this could've been prevented?

Oh!

But he just kept going

until the early '90s when they landed in Florida,

and moved in next door to a kid named Christine.

So, I do have a question.

And, and I-I feel like I should be able

- to ask this question. - Okay.

I want to know how you found me.

Oh, of course, so my--

It was all in my grandfather's paperwork.

Okay. 'Cause, you know, there's always that fear

that you put somebody in jail

and their family wants to retaliate.

- Oh, my gosh. - Of course, there is not

a single person in my family that would, would defend him.

- Absolutely. - Okay.

The day of the incident he told me,

"You can trust me. I'm a doctor."

- Oh, my God. - That's how he got me.

I remember, all of a sudden, I'm down on the ground.

There he is on top of me.

He was like, "If you tell anybody,

-I will kill your parents." -Oh, my God.

And I flipped out, and I kicked him,

and I pushed him off of me.

And I grabbed my bike,

and I came back into the trailer park.

And so, I took measures, and my parents took measures,

and we went through court, and they found him guilty.

You know, it was, it was pretty dramatic being on the stand,

but, you know, I was so worried that

if he did that to me

would he do it to somebody else?

Oh, I mean, I-I-- Thank you for sharing that.

And I am-- I'm just so sorry.

I do want to say how incredibly proud I am that you, you did that

because there were dozens and dozens

- over many, many years. - Jesus Christ.

And he did not go to prison until '92.

- So for that, we have you to thank, and your courage. Mm-hmm.

So, he never served any prison until--

Until you.

I didn't even know he hurt so many people.

And I didn't want him to do that to anybody else.

Like, I--

Hoo, sorry.

Can I talk to your mom for a sec?

Oh, sure. I'm right here, go 'head.

Hey.

How are you doing through this?

Well, you know, it's so interesting.

- I have learned that... - Right.

...um, you can't change the past.

All you can do is change your future.

And I can't change what either of my parents did,

but I have children, ya know, that are all adults now,

and I... tried to protect them at all levels.

I was constantly watching him,

and making sure that my kids were safe.

When I knew that they were coming around,

I was watching him like a hawk.

When Grandpa did go to prison,

I can remember how she told me.

So, Mom had just come in my room and said,

um, "I wanna talk to you about somethin'.

"Did-- I just wanted to let you know

"that Grandpa went to prison

for," I think she did say, "molesting a little girl."

And through clenched teeth,

'cause she really didn't wanna get the words out,

I could tell... she said,

"Did he ever do anything to you?"

And I never turned around. I just said, "Mm-hmm."

And she turned around and left the room.

There wasn't even a hug.

To this day, there's still

not been a conversation about that.

-That's super painful. -Yeah.

Is that Grandpa?

- That is Grandpa. - Wow.

This date is in prison.

That's '94.

I don't know about this one.

He did get out early. I think two and a half years

-into the four-and-a-half-year sentence. -Oh.

- He got off on good behavior. - Mm-hmm.

The chaplain was like, "Oh, this is such

a trustworthy man of God."

And then, him and Grandma just

bounced around Florida for 20 years.

I just cannot even wrap my head around

-what she dealt with every day. -Yeah. Yeah.

There is a letter she sent to you

as soon as Grandpa went to prison.

It gets me every time.

"Dear Angie, Thank you for your lovely letter and pictures.

"After three weeks, it was possible for Grandpa

"to receive his in prison. He likes it.

"He calls prison the 'big fish,' just like Jonah.

"He's in there because of his disobedience.

"He is now crying out like Jonah

"to be delivered from the belly of hell.

"And he is asking us to forgive him, too.

"As for me, I'm sorry, too.

"Even though I've been aware of this addiction for a long time,

"and promised God I would face it squarely

"when it raised its ugly head,

"I have failed miserably in that department.

"I have found the ugly addiction never sleeps,

"and I require sleep.

"And it is very sneaky.

"And there are many times I'm not smart enough.

"Then both you and your mom write me

"such beautiful letters and cards saying,

"'We miss you. We love you. Please come home.'

"And I think, 'Why?' I'm a big part of this failure.

"Oh, Angie, please forgive me.

I do love you, honey. Grandma."

That's, that's really sad.

-Do you remember this? -No.

So, it is confirmation that she knew

that I did go through that.

My mom just constantly

tried to smooth things over all the time in her mind.

Just... wish things away or pray 'em away.

I know that she couldn't have been happy, at all,

living with my dad.

But growing up religious,

doesn't matter what kind of abuse you go through,

divorce wasn't an option.

And, especially, back then. You just-- You didn't do it.

"Until death do us part."

In 2012, I flew to Florida,

and when I got there,

she had lost between 30 and 40 pounds.

And I just told her, I said, "I see what it's doing to you."

And I said, "This is the last time I'm gonna ask you."

I said, "Will you come back with me?"

When she said, "Okay, I'll do it,"

I started planning in my mind,

"How do I get her outta here without him killing us?"

I am like, "Okay, Mom.

"We are gonna get far enough away

"that he's not gonna find us.

I'm gonna get everything packed in the car."

We were about a half an hour away,

and my dad called.

She, she looked at it, and she goes, "It's him."

I could hear him yelling, and he said, "Where are you?!

You are the worst daughter!"

How could I possibly steal her away from him?

I just thought, "We gotta get as far away from here as we can."

It was an 18-hour drive back to Pennsylvania.

It was the beginning of the rest of her life.

I finally got her hooked up with my doctor.

She was diagnosed with colon cancer.

She ended up living a little over two more years.

It was very sad. I feel like she was such

a smart, intelligent, beautiful woman

that had wasted her time

on someone that has destroyed so many people's lives.

Hey, Bonnie.

Hi, Amanda.

You had mentioned you're back in Harrisburg,

and then I thought the only eyes that

I've ever seen Harrisburg, Pennsylvania, through

are with my 3-to-6-year-old eyes.

I want to go to Herd Chiropractic Clinic,

and I just wanna be heard and understood.

And I want to stand in that driveway as an adult,

and know that nobody can drag me in there.

And that way, it'll be permanently imprinted in my brain

that I'm safe now.

I am 100% here for that.

Absolutely.

- How you feelin'? - I'm feeling nervous.

It's so strange being back here.

I've avoided it for so long.

-Like, deliberately avoided coming back here. -You're doin' it. Mm-hmm.

It's this white building right here.

- Here on the corner? - Yep.

Okay.

I need to breathe.

Oh, my goodness.

This is different.

Just being in this building

makes me feel sick to my stomach.

I need to breathe.

Oh, my God.

Come on in here, kids. Have a seat, okay? Thanks so much.

- Yeah. - Thanks so much.

We got a lotta flack down here, uh,

from people that Bill had, uh, relationships with.

Between Bill and Lois's house and here,

those were the two places he would abuse me.

And it-it's taken me a little over 40 years now

to come back to these places and face them as an adult.

The Bible says that

we're forgiven to the same degree we forgive.

It's God's love that c-- allows us to forgive

and h-helps us to forgive those that have abused us.

I think that's what I struggle with is thinking that

if I'm going to forgive someone

that, no, I'm not going to forget,

and, no, I'm not going to just immediately let it go.

It's, it's hard to forgive someone who

doesn't ask for forgiveness,

or... think that they did anything wrong.

You know?

Yeah, you're never gonna forget it.

I mean, that's-- I mean, that's, th-that's life.

We understand that, yeah.

And, and we wanna pray with you before we leave

- just for-- Yes. - Yeah?

- Absolutely. - Okay.

Pray, Barb, you pray for 'em, honey. Pray.

Lord, we come into your presence of praise

and into accordance with thanksgiving.

Knowing that you're the Lord, our God,

and you do all things well.

You heal our mind, you heal our body, you heal our spirit.

-Yes, you're the healer, Lord. Yes. -I ask Lord Jesus

that you will take my sister,

- and you'll pour your love... - Yes, Lord Jesus.

- ...and your love, love, love... - Yes, yes, Jesus, yes.

- ...into her mind, body, and spirit. - Yes.

-Yes, Lord. -Let there be a release,

and a power of forgiveness

that will set her free totally in her whole being.

- While we bless your name, Lord, we know you're the God... - We bless you.

-Thank you. You are the healer, Lord. -...of the now...

- Yep. - ...and the God of our future,

and you take care of us, and we bless your name.

Thank you for your healing, Lord,

for your healing power in our sister.

Just fill her heart, fill her spirit, Lord,

we pray in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Filling you with love, forgiveness,

and healing in Jesus's mighty name.

Amen.

- How ya feelin'? - Sick.

Yeah.

Do you want a hug or you want some space?

- Space. - Okay, that's fine.

Do you feel like God has forgiven you?

Absolutely, because there's no sin that can't be forgiven.

Except blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

You can be forgiven no matter what you've done.

Hi, Debi.

I'm tryin' to reach ya, honey.

Daddy loves his daughter.

You're so precious.

Um, so, everything has gotten so screwed up down here.

I'm not doin' too good right now, and...

I'll just explain it to you when I get a chance.

I'm, I'm waitin' for ya. Thank you.

Hey, Deb, I've been missin' you, honey,

and you don't seem to pick up anymore.

I guess you don't like me anymore.

Tomorrow, of course, as you know, I have dialysis,

and... now I have to have a fistula put in my arm.

I have a catheter in my shoulder right now.

So at any rate, I just want you to keep me in prayer,

but ya know what's goin' on with your old Pappy.

Hey, Mom.

Hi, honey.

Okay, so you were saying--

He definitely has declined a lot.

He just sounded very confused, very weak, so.

How do you feel knowin' he's fallin' apart?

I don't know. I, I guess,

you know, even though he's a horrible, awful person,

I still know him as my dad.

As messed up as he was. You know?

All I get is this darn voicemail thing.

I hate that thing.

Are you in a position where you can call me?

Very important.

I don't understand this.

Why are you avoiding me?

I'm not your enemy, I'm your dad.

I'd just as soon be dead.

That'd be the best thing in the world

if it happened to me.

Maybe you'd agree with that, too.

I don't know.

And I love ya.

Give me a call back tonight, please.

Uh, it's, it's been three days of hell, that's all I can say.

Constant phone calls and texts, and harassment, and oh, my gosh.

He needs somebody to manage

-him right now. -Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's saying he's frantically moving,

and, "I'm just too old to do this."

And I could just tell he wasn't telling me anything

and, and I said, "Okay, Dad, what's goin' on?"

He says, "Well"--

He goes, "Remember those young twins that I was talkin' about?"

- Oh, no. - Yeah.

He said, you know, "They aren't feeling comfortable that I'm here."

And I knew he wasn't lyin' to me.

So, I called the manager of the place,

and he told me that, "Your father has been

touching them inappropriately,"

but, again, nobody wants to press charges.

They just want him to move.

That exact reason is why

he's gotten away with this for his entire life.

We're gonna go down

and see Grandpa for the last time.

He is not doing-- Very poor in his health, um,

in his final days.

I just picked up a letter from my sister that she wrote him.

So, if there's anything you wanted me to say to him.

I would love for you to tell him

that his sick perversion,

to get off for a few minutes,

took the spirit and the life out of a 4-year-old girl.

Hm.

- Alright, I'd slow down. - Yeah.

Alright, it's here, yeah?

Okay.

How much longer is it before dinner?

One more hour.

Yes.

- Hello! - Hi, honey, it's me.

Can you hang up the phone? It's something important.

Hi, Dad.

I don't believe it.

Hello there, sweet-- Hi, girls, how are ya?

- How are you, Dad? - Oh, I'm very good.

I've got a lotta pain in my side today,

- but otherwise I'm okay. - Sorry.

- Hi, Grandpa. Hi. Hi. Hi, sweetheart. Oh, my gosh.

Are you alright?

I'm okay. Thanks, honey.

Appreciate you, baby.

We didn't mean to shock ya too much.

No, it's wonderful. Thank you.

Wasn't sure if you'd remember who I was.

Of course!

How could I ever forget you or her? Either one.

- But. - So, but tomorrow,

we can call it a hang-out day,

- if you have the energy. - Sounds good.

Okay.

- Oh-- - What do you think of the place?

It is really bad.

He's not lying when he said it was a dump.

But, ya know what, it's this or prison.

-Yeah. -Pick your worst.

- You know? - I'd prefer prison for him.

You almost ready, Manny?

Yeah.

It's crazy thinkin'...

how long I've thought about doing this,

and it's just weird 'cause it's, like, today's that day.

-Today is, is the day ya say somethin'. -Yeah.

I'm nervous but I feel...

ready.

Just plow through the discomfort here.

So this is all that they said that you have left.

Oh, my God, that's a lie.

So there's some pictures here.

So we have pictures of Grandma,

-and Ange, your kids. -Yep, yep, yep. Yep.

Who's that?

You know, I don't know who that is.

-I'm not sure. -Oh, I see, Dad, I see your diabetes.

- Mm-hmm. Look at this. - Look at this.

Peanut butter M&M's, cookies.

Yeah, I have to carry snacks

because we don't get enough to eat in this place.

Alright, Dad, this is gonna be on your top shelf.

You, you really don't.

- Okay. - Alright.

Alright. Ya good?

- You can stay there. - No, stay. Sit down, Dad.

No, I-- No, no, no, no, no, no.

That's not what I'm after right now.

- What do you need? - Okay.

My telephone over there.

Oh, we see it's charged, charged.

Yeah, just pull the cord.

But I gotta have-- must have a picture of that lady, too.

Uh, I'll stay on this side

of the camera.

It isn't every day that we get a movie star in here.

Oh.

I'm so glad to meet you.

And so glad you came.

Alright. Now, do you mind if we take some pictures outside?

-No. -Okay.

Oh, my goodness.

I just have to go-- kinda go slow.

Well, go slow, Dad. That's fine.

Where are we lookin'?

Just towards me.

- One, two... - What?

- ...three. - Never mind.

One, two, three.

I can't believe he said I look like your mother.

- No, ya look great, honey. - Uh-huh.

-You really do. I'm serious. -Yeah, whatever.

You do look great right now, Mom.

You do, honey. You're, you're terrific.

If you only knew what I've been through.

Alright, will ya look up at her for a second?

So what have you been through?

- Up at her. Whoop. - Can ya get that far?

I think can.

Alright, great.

Now what time is, uh, dinner?

-Five, right? -At five o'clock if-- I don't know. I--

-Okay. -A lotta times, I don't even try to eat.

-I know, but you need to, Dad, if you can. -Thank you, Mama.

Stop calling me your mother.

- Okay. - I knew that'd get to her.

- Good God. - Now, there's, um,

there's somethin' I just wanna ask you real quick.

Do you wanna, do you wanna say bye?

- Okay. Yeah. - Okay.

I'm gonna-- She just--

I'm gonna go to the car.

It was very nice to meet you.

Oh, it's a pleasure.

You're absolutely gorgeous, by the way.

- Thank you. - So, I thank you.

I'm blessed to have you down here.

- Bye. - Where ya goin'?

She's goin' to the car.

- We have to talk to you about somethin'. - No! Come on back here.

No, Dad, it's alright, it's alright.

She's gotta get her stuff ready to go.

I just wanted to get a picture of her, though.

Now,

I'm gonna put this down. I just wanted us

-to be able to... -Here, I'll hold it, hon.

-I'll hold it. -...to have a minute.

Um, oh, I'm gettin' a picture taken.

- Good deal. - Alright, so I just wanted to--

- Oh, God, I'm gonna cry. - Don't cry.

Grandpa, I just need you to listen to me for a second.

-I'm listening. -There are two people

that... sent me--

- Can you do this? - I'm sorry.

There is... two people that,

you know, we always want wholeness between people,

and they asked us to send you some mess-- a message,

and we want you to hear it, okay?

Um... because we want everybody to be whole

in this dysfunctional stuff that we go through.

So, we just want ya to listen to this, okay?

-I'm all ears. -Okay.

So, the first one... is from Ange.

She sent you an audio message to listen to.

Okay.

I hope you can hear it.

Grandpa, I wanna start off by telling you

that I love you dearly and I'm thankful

to have you as my grandpa.

I suffered many years of my life

by the trauma I endured as a child

moving into your home with my mom

where I was subjected to sexual abuse

for many years at your hand.

I've learned to push everything under the carpet,

just like the family did.

I do not want to hold anger and bitterness in my heart,

and I pray you get your life right with God before it's too late.

Love, your granddaughter, Angie.

Can you stand here?

Thank you.

-What are your thoughts on that, Dad? -Well.

Do you wanna say anything in response to Ange?

I can send her back a message.

Yeah, 'cause we wanted to s-- you to,

ya know, send messages to people

like we're sending a message to you,

so what would you--

Do you wanna say something to her?

Okay.

Hello, Angie. This is Grandpa.

Hey, um, that, that was quite a message you sent me,

and I appreciate it, and I thank you,

and I, uh, am deeply sorry for all the different things

that happened in my life, in your life,

and, and, and, and your mom,

and, uh, it was not done purposely,

but yet, these things do happen sometimes.

Sometimes, we do stupid things,

and I, I have to admit that I was many times very stupid.

So, thank you for leveling with me.

It's wonderful. God bless you, honey,

and I believe we're gonna walk the streets of glory together one day.

Okay, um,

I-I, I do have, I have one more. Sorry.

Now this is from a woman named Bonnie Dillard.

Can I at least-- You don't have to say anything,

but it's important.

She asked-- She reached out to our family.

Well, how 'bout if you walk away

-and I'll let him listen to-- Okay? -I can walk away.

Would you like me to walk away?

I'll, I'll let you just hear it. You and I. Okay?

Alright, it's just for healing for them, Dad. Okay?

Alright.

Alright.

Alright.

He, he, he did what he did to get off

for a few minutes...

but what I don't think he knows

is that he took... the life,

the spirit of this little girl

that affected that little girl for the rest of her life.

And he didn't have the right to take that.

It wasn't his to take. It was, it was soul-crushing.

So, I don't know. Do you wanna say anything to her?

Okay. Alright.

Is there anybody else you wanna send a message to?

, Paul, anybody?

Nobody?

- Not really. - Okay.

She'll get your walker and I'll take you.

Yeah, I'll be right back.

Get him there, and I'll be right back.

Okay. Alright, Grandpa, I'm gonna give ya a hug.

Oh, you still want to?

- Yep. - Thank you.

Dad, do you need-- have your wallet,

all of that with you? I know you--

- Yes, I do. - Okay. Alright.

- Let's go. - Alright.

Alright. I'll be right back to the car.

Okay, I'll see ya.

I still have to answer to an almighty God.

And I have to stand before him one day,

and I'm not gonna be able to lie to him whatsoever

because he knows everything.

I did not expect that to be so hard.

Oh, God.

Mr. William, open your beautiful eyes.

And no matter what we've done in the past

as we come to Him and we repent

asking Him for that forgiveness,

Christ will forgive.

No matter how awful we have been.

And we're bound for Heaven then, definitely.

Yeah, let's do the small one first.

Let me put this over here.

This is all that's left of Grandpa.

Scissors.

Okay, let's do this.

-Alright. -World's worst unboxing video.

Oh, wow.

Hm.

- Little picture of Grandma. - That's shocking.

Oh, my God, this is so creepy.

Well, who is it?

Just an empty wallet

and... pictures of this woman.

This is weird.

It is very weird.

What do you do with these things?

We have to be careful, we don't-- Oh, my gosh. Gross.

Is this one of his matching outfits?

- Hello. - Hello, yellow.

Hello.

Oh, here's a brand-new coat. Never wore. Is it his or...?

- It is nice. - I told you!

-Oh no! -I can so see you--

Oh, conflicted.

How cozy is that when you go to New York?

-Conflicted. -Conflicted.

Conflicted.

Let's just put this one to the side.

I can't.

I'm sorry.

We need some laughter in all this hideousness.

-You just sitting amongst-- -I know, smelly clothes.

I don't know. Like, is there something wrong with us?

That we laugh?

Hm, that's an interesting question.

I don't know.

It's not a nervous laugh,

I think it's more of a... a relief kinda.

And it's just kinda strange.

After all we've been through all those years with him,

and... this is it.

You know, it's freeing,

but it's also just very strange, so.

Mm-mm.

Well, you certainly know that he had no taste in clothes.

Oh, yeah. Knew that.

Same with my mom.

I do find myself dressing like her sometimes now.

I didn't wanna say anything.

Okay.

-Hello. -Hello!

Well, I am calling with good news

that he passed away last week.

And then it was, like, a, a frantic rush

to just get his body donated to science

so nobody had to deal with it.

-Wow. -Yeah.

No funeral, no nothin'.

It's just-- People just want to move on.

-Interesting. -Yeah.

Well, how are you feelin'?

-About this? -Mm-hmm.

Ya know, there's the apology that will never come.

I don't think it would've come anyway.

I feel like he can't ever hurt anyone else ever again.

Mm-hmm.

Um...

I mean, I'm happy... I'm happy.

Are you okay? I mean, I know he's your grandfather.

I'm really sorry.

Um, yeah. No, I-I'm o-- I'm obviously okay with it.

But I've been having, like, back-and-forth feelings

of just, like, a lot of anger

because I think there's still accountability to be had

and continuing to, to just talk about it.

And I feel very, like, firm in what I'm doing

and that I should be talking about this, so.

You know, it, it feels like a lot of responsibility,

you know, like, trudgin' up people's stuff,

but I also feel like by not talking about it

is giving him what he wants...

- Mm-hmm. - ...you know?

And I feel like, if anything, I want that silence to stop

in my family here.

You can go straight, baby, it's a lot quicker.

- Yeah? - Mm-hmm.

Are you nervous at all or no?

No.

Why would I be?

I mean, I think that there are some things that Ange...

is holding in around this that you guys could,

could talk about.

I don't want... to be like Grandma

and die with any secrets or regrets.

Yeah. Yeah, it's just, for you guys to heal,

I think you're really gonna have to listen to her.

Alright, here we go.

- Hi, puppers! Alright. - Hi, Roscoe!

Hi, Roo. Hi, hon.

That should be okay.

Manny, here's your coffee.

Well, there is one, and here's one.

- They're both the same. - Amanda, do you need sugar?

- And there's milk. - Um, no, I'm okay.

I get stressed going through this footage

because it's, like, there's so much of it,

and, like, I--

As far as younger girls,

what about the girls in the family?

Oh, God, it's just nauseating.

Even just hear-- starting to hear it.

And then, Ange,

anything with Ange?

The only thing I can remember--

Nothin' that I remember--

I was only-- One time I was with Angie

that I recall.

Um... she was gonna--

Uh, her mom was comin' over and she was leavin' Angie,

and, uh... she wanted to go to the bathroom.

So, I went in with her,

and I sat down on the potty without my clothes on.

And she took her panties off, and she sat on my lap,

and I rubbed her a little bit.

And that was the-- that was it.

But, lo and behold, at that particular moment,

her mom came home.

And that's when-- And she went out then t-to her mom.

That was the only thing that ever took place that I am aware of.

Unless I was dreaming, but that's the only thing--

See that is the only time I remember, ever.

Nothing ever happened with you.

Well... I feel that, and this isn't something

I've ever wanted to say,

but--

Okay, so, half of this issue

is because I was placed in it.

- Okay? - Let me get the tissues.

And the thing is, is I'm healed of this part of it,

but half of this issue

is not knowing why I was willingly put into something

- that you knew somebody did this. Mm-hmm.

So, those are my only current issues with it.

It's not that

any of this happened, I mean, yeah, that's not good.

But... I feel like I'm past that.

I know all that's wrong, I've been healed of it--

Oh, thank you. You found tissue--

I don't know where the tissues are.

Excuse me.

But I feel that a lot of our relationship

is based off of just a mistrust there

because of not feelin' like I understand

why I would've been put in that,

and never had an avenue to talk about it.

So, to hear you, like, just talk about it so casually sometimes,

I had, like, a hair issue or somethin'.

That was my way of internalizing that,

and just... taking it out on myself

because there was nobody that was w-willing to listen,

or cared to listen, or bring it up.

And I had no one to talk to.

Alright, from my end,

you know, and I'm sorry that anything happened,

whether... I knew it or not...

- Mm-hmm. - ...because I honestly remember the one time.

All that I was going through with the divorce,

I had nowhere else to go.

I didn't have a job. I had to find a job.

And that's when Grandma said, "Well, you can stay here."

And I remember talking to her and saying,

"You promise me you will take care of Ange?"

I knew that Grandma loved you,

and that she would, hopefully, protect you.

I didn't know all that was going on.

To me, it's, it's a whole, like, circle around

because it's, "Well, I had to go through this.

I had this. I had this bad stuff."

You know, is what I always hear from you.

But it's--

No matter what my stuff I went through,

it's never as big as what

you've had to go through as a mom.

I haven't ever had, like, a mom that has wanted to care.

It's more about what you went through.

I don't really have an answer. I don't.

I believed that after that one time that I confronted him

that he would've never done it again.

And that was truly my belief.

So, this morning, we were supposed to go over to my mom's

to just do some basic interview questions,

and--

I mean, I could tell that there was some tension yesterday,

and she just sent me a message canceling the interview,

which is a... an understatement.

"With the false accusations and how you feel about me,

"and what you think I feel about Ange is not true.

"You both keep expecting apologies out of me

"for things that you think I have been wrong in.

"I will defend myself at all costs when I know it is not true.

God knows what I've put up with in my life. No more."

Hi, Mom, got your message.

Happy to talk through this with you,

uh, so if you could call me back when you can, I'd appreciate it.

Thanks.

I definitely didn't see this coming,

but I would like to not have my relationship with my mom end.

I-I'm just sick and tired of conflict,

sick and tired of never meeting up to the expectations.

I have bent over backwards for everyone in this family.

No matter how much pain,

no matter how much discomfort it's caused me.

So, I'm sorry... but I can't do it anymore.

I'm, I'm very sorry that it's come to that.

I feel like I've been pushing more and more

because I thought that it was...

helping to paint a better picture for you to know what to do.

If you know a bit more about how Angie's feeling,

then you might know how to respond.

- I've-- - Do you understand that I do know what she feels?

-Because been there, done it. -Uh, it's--

I feel... like you're all adults.

I've ruined enough of your life.

I just slip out slowly, everybody's happy.

- Everybody can do what they want... - That's not true.

- ...crazy mom's not there. - That's how I feel.

That's not how I feel at all,

and it's not how Ange feels in any way.

We love you. You're our mom.

I love you guys, but...

when... I keep getting...

the accusatory things where...

it doesn't matter what I say, it doesn't matter what I do.

It makes me feel like the very best thing

is just packin' everything up,

and just never talkin' to anybody again

because I've messed up everybody's lives so much.

If I am sharing my perspective of things,

I don't want you to feel like that's an attack

because I think the one thing that we've learned here

is that...

truth has multiple perspectives.

But I also want to stay open to what each other are saying...

-Mm-hmm. -...to possibly learn something new.

I'm, like, not here to attack, or judge, or anything.

I'm not going to spend my time and effort

-when I know what is true. -Mm-hmm.

-And I'm being blamed for something that's not true. -Can we talk about that, though?

'Cause I just wanna understand what you're talking about.

What do you feel has-- that has been said about you is untrue?

There are things that have been said about me that

um, that did not happen.

Can you tell me specifically, though?

It's about many things that-- Okay, say somebody, uh, says--

Is-- But is-- Are-- I think the most relevant example

is, like, that Ange was abused.

Do you feel any responsibility

for, not just that incident, but all of the incidences

that Ange was abused living with him?

Do you feel any responsibility for h-- that having happened?

Of course, I feel responsible because she's my kid

and I've always wanted to protect her.

Yes, but then, again,

it was like I was guaranteed

that Grandma was gonna not let her out of her sight.

And so, I trusted her. I trusted her word.

But I-- in that conversation, did both of you acknowledge

that you know that Grandpa does this?

No, she did not ever acknowledge it.

-Mm-hmm. -And I'm angry at myself

that I didn't...

like, f-- kinda force her to talk about it.

All along, I've known that she's had to have known.

Um, how could you have all these court hearings

and all the things and not know?

She knew, and I know that, you know, at a certain point,

she realized, like, she is... implicated.

She chose a side.

She chose to protect him instead of her kids.

But we all need to take responsibility for our role

in what Grandpa was able to do.

We have been driven to be more angry with each other and not Grandpa

when Grandpa is the reason...

-Mm-hmm. -...for all of this tension, all of the division.

I just want people to be angry at him.

That's an unforgiveness on your part.

There's a reconciling day for every person

for what they've done and unforgiveness is a huge one.

If we don't forgive somebody,

uh, we're held accountable for that, too.

-So, I just-- -But how can you forgive

when nothing was done about it,

and he just kind of died...

and just managed to get away with it.

If you stay angry and can't forgive somebody,

you're drinkin' the poison yourself.

But the act of being angry is saying,

"You know what? I'm not gonna feel that way.

"Fuck that. This isn't my fault, this is your fault.

And you need to be held accountable for this."

You've gotta let go.

And that's where I'm at.

This last leg of my life,

uh, I-I just want to agree to disagree with people,

and just love 'em where they're at

because you cannot change where they're at.

I do understand wanting to move forward,

but healing, to me, is you have to talk about the hard stuff

if you want to move past it.

I think the bizarre thing that's happening right now

is my mom is leaving for the first time in her life.

She has bought an RV,

which is something that runs in the family,

and is planning on leaving Pennsylvania for the first time,

and, yeah, she's just not gonna be here.

Now that she's leaving, it's just kind of like, "We tried."

And I just have to do what's best for myself.

"Dear Mom,

"we've gone months without talking,

"and have had countless fights.

"Moments where I wasn't sure

"we'd ever speak again.

"Banging our heads against the wall

"to try and feel understood by each other.

"Even though there are many ways we will never see eye-to-eye,

"I have such immense respect for you

for where you've gotten in life, despite all the odds."

I feel like she can't give to us...

- Mm-hmm. - ...what she herself doesn't know to do for herself.

She's doing what she has always done.

We just have to keep moving forward.

As much of a shitstorm as all this is, you know.

Mom's doin' better than Grandma, you're doin' better than Mom,

-and your kids are gonna do better than you. -Right.

It makes me very excited and very proud that...

I chose a different way,

that my girls won't have to walk through.

You know, and hopefully, it propels them to be

better versions of themselves, earlier,

where I had to walk through a lot of crap to become...

the best me.

"I don't regret holding you accountable

"for letting Ange down.

"But I also understand that living in survival mode

"when you don't even know how to protect yourself

"is a reality that's hard to explain,

"but that so many can relate to.

"Many people do not survive the abuse you have,

"let alone survive facing it.

"I'm so sorry that you were abused by your dad,

"and that your mom looked on.

"It must've been very lonely,

"and while it wasn't your fault,

"it breaks my heart

"to imagine the shame that you felt.

"And now that is what makes me angry.

"You deserved better.

"You deserved to be heard and to be seen

"and to feel safe and protected by your parents.

"It would take us longer than we'll ever be alive

"to ever fully understand the ways

"we've each been shaped by Grandpa's abuse.

"But it's my hope, that with space, time,

"and individual commitment to unpacking who this has made each of us,

"that the gap between us will all be able to slowly close.

"I am honored to have you as my mom,

"and to have taken this journey with you

"as long as we could together.

"And I hope that in this next chapter,

you're able to find the peace you deserve."

I felt like a big breath of fresh air

when I got off the phone with her last night.

I always was thinkin', "I'm just gonna have to be okay

with her not acknowledging, you know, my pain."

So, um, I didn't know that she ever would.

So, that was really good that, ya know, that, that piece

feels, like, kinda completed this for me.

- Ugh! - So that's really good.

I love it!

Going back to Harrisburg was, like, the beginning of my--

I don't know if you wanna call it a journey or processing,

but, like, it took everything in me that I had

to go back to the Herd Clinic.

Sorry, my daughter's trying to reach me.

She's nine-and-a-half months pregnant.

Do you, do you mind if I just--

I just wanna make sure that we're good

-because if she's like, "I'm in labor." -Yes.

Okay. Go have a grandbaby.