Original subtitles

Hello there and welcome to the Uncloaked,

the official visualised podcast hosted by me, Ed Gamble.

Now, before I say anything else,

this episode is stuffed to the gills with spoilers.

So if you haven't watched the latest episode of The Celebrity Traitors,

then get yourself onto BBC iPlayer and do that right now.

Now that I've got that over with,

I can finally play this noise.

No, not that one. This one.

Yes, they finally caught their very first Traitor.

Having weathered several storms of suspicion,

the game finally caught up with Jonathan Ross,

and the Faithful banished him at the Round Table.

So what's coming up in tonight's episode?

Murdered Faithful Lucy Beaumont

will be joining us from beyond the grave.

Jonathan Ross returns from the banishment

to talk about his time in the Traitors' Turret.

Plus series one Traitor Wilf

and series three Traitor Minah will be offering

their expert insight into the game so far.

Well, thank you all so much for joining me on Uncloaked.

I'm very excited that I'm joined by not one,

not two, but three horrible Traitors -

Wilf, Minah, and Jonathan Ross, of course.

When you say horrible, you mean because we didn't get to the end?

It's a double meaning. Just bad Traitor.

Horrible at being a Traitor. Also it's three...

Losers... losing Traitors. Three losers on the sofa.

He wouldn't have said that to Harry, would he?

No, he wouldn't have said that to Harry. Harry scares me.

Jonathan, welcome. Welcome to Uncloaked. How does it feel

now that The Celebrity Traitors is out in the world,

people are seeing what's happening? It's interesting.

I mean, it's strange.

Like most things to do with Traitors, I don't think you can

predict how it's going to feel at any stage.

And so it's out there and so I was kind of looking forward to it

and kind of dreading it at the same time.

Er, and the dread hasn't been felt as much as I feared it might,

and I think most of the other Traitors - I haven't spoken to

all of them, but I think most of us feel the same way -

it's quite exciting to see it out there.

It's quite annoying because people

want to talk to you about it all the time.

Yeah, sorry about that. And I'm sure that dies down.

No. But it is like... And they'll say stuff like,

they'll ask you quite a long question and say,

"Don't spoil it," and you think,

"Well, why are you asking me anything?"

And I obviously don't say anything.

Wilf and Minah, what are you thinking

in terms of Jonathan's Traitor score?

If you give him a score out of ten for his time as a Traitor.

And guys, please don't hold back. No, I won't.

Because I'm not going to take it at all personally.

I'd rather you be as honest,

and let's face it, as cruel as I know you both can be,

having seen you in the show.

OK, I will give you a seven. Oh, that's a high score. Thank you.

And it's only that high because you lasted seven episodes.

Yeah. It would have been, you know,

the first Traitor out...

It's not great. And Wilf, your score for me?

I'm going to give you a five. Five.

Listen, I... I think these are very harsh scores.

I think that's a fair one, but this one needs explaining.

Because you went out before Alan Carr,

and Alan Carr, at times,

from what I watched, was the most obvious Traitor.

But it's working. But, Wilf. Yeah.

Don't you know that the people

who seem like they don't know what's going on,

and the people who seem confused and bumbling,

they're the ones that get overlooked because everyone always thinks...

Like even the year that Harry won,

even though he wasn't acting confused,

but he was acting the sweet, innocent kid who didn't really know

what was going on and was quite kind of harmless. Yeah.

And so they do survive well, and I,

I mean, you know, I didn't make any predictions

to which one of us would last the longest.

You know, I didn't want to play that game at all.

But I genuinely thought from the minute we were up there,

I thought, "I will be the first of these three to go out."

Really? Even seeing Alan talk very loudly many times

about what the Traitors have been doing, in front of the whole group.

How did that feel?

It felt sort of endearing in a way, you know.

And I never once thought, "Oh, good. He'll..."

You know, because I didn't want to see either of them get out.

I really didn't, you know,

I just wanted to see one Traitor make it to the end.

On the point of Alan,

he's now just openly laughing when people are murdered.

On the Round Table! Yeah, the Round Table and at breakfast,

when it's like, this person's not come back, he's just laughing.

He's a great tool as well because he laughs at everything.

Even when someone say, "I think you're a Traitor,"

he'll be like "No!"

And it's like, it's amazing. Because one of the things

that I think you also appreciate is that consistency is very important.

Yeah. And he is consistently Alan. Yeah.

More so than anyone else. And once again, I suffered a bit there

I think because Cat is very cool, calm, collected all the time.

All the time. Whereas I...

I think I struggled more with it than the two of them,

and I was like trying to keep myself focused

in a way that they didn't seem to have to,

Cat because she was just, you know, could compartmentalise

and Alan because I think he forgot what was going on,

quite a lot of the time. It's a good skill to have.

I mean, he has been on quite a journey, though,

because when he was selected as a Traitor,

I thought, "He's never going to stop sweating."

Yes. He's amazing. Did he stop sweating?

No, I think he's still sweating now.

I genuinely went in thinking I didn't mind what I was.

I said... Really? Yeah, I really said,

"I don't mind if I'm a Faithful or Traitor."

Um, and then I said,

"I guess I'd rather ideally be a Faithful, be recruited."

You can't guarantee that. So then I said,

"OK, I'd probably rather be a Traitor." Yeah.

So I think I'd have been a better Faithful than most of them

because...

It's funny to watch a Traitor getting frustrated

with the Faithful playing the game badly.

I could not believe they didn't get Alan for killing Paloma.

Yeah. Yeah. And we weren't trying to set him up.

It just made sense that he was the one who could conceivably do it,

knowing the recently deceased would be interrogated the next day.

Who could touch someone's face?

If I touch someone's face, it's going to be weird.

And if Cat... We know Cat wasn't touching anyone,

she made it clear she doesn't like being touched.

So Alan was the person to go for. But when it first came out,

what was fascinating was the number of other Faithfuls

who shut it down, who leapt to his defence. Yeah.

"It wouldn't be Alan, he knows her." And I tried to help that -

I don't know if you saw, but in the graveyard,

when we actually put the lid on the coffin, I said... Someone said,

it might have been me said, "Someone should say a few words."

And I said, "It should be Alan, because he knew her best,"

and I was trying to position him in their heads as the person who...

And you were just trolling a little bit as well.

That was wonderful TV. But then afterwards...

This is why I am somewhat stupid when it comes to games.

After, I went home and said, "Oh, no, that's worse, though,

"because that would make people think,

if I was a Faithful I'd think,

"Well, who is the least likely person to have killed her?"

And that would be Alan. Yeah.

And the fact they shut it down just based supposedly

on this friendship outside, and they are friends, it doesn't matter.

You're going to kill your friends in there. That's what he said. Yeah.

My whole strategy, I said from the beginning, just murder your friends.

If you're a Traitor, just murder your friends.

You can patch it over afterwards. That's absolutely fine. Yeah.

So in the Conclave, you had a very united front together.

But outside of the Conclave, there was sort of...

There was no cohesiveness to who you were voting for, or... Not really.

I mean, I think that's probably a good way to play it,

to be honest with you. Yeah.

I thought Clare had me bang to rights,

so I did kind of help orchestrate that.

But most of the time we really, and I think...

Quite random, it seemed. Well, I think deliberately so,

because I think it doesn't matter. It just causes chaos as well.

Everybody thinks they've got a theory and then someone goes.

It works either way. If you murder someone

who's been saying your name, you do what I did

when we murdered Ruth and say, "Obviously, I wouldn't murder Ruth."

Yeah. Jonathan, now that you've seen the episodes,

you've seen conversations that were happening

when you weren't there and how people were talking about you,

do you think there's anything that you could have done

to survive any longer? I think yes. The night we killed Lucy...

And I didn't want to kill Lucy that night.

I actually wanted to kill Joe but he had a Shield, I think.

Yes, he did. Yeah. And Joe... See, I would have taken Joe out then.

Yeah. Er, because Lucy had got me,

and I'm pretty sure she was convinced,

and she was right, of course.

But I think Lucy could perhaps have been steered away from me,

or I could have alienated her from others

so they didn't support her, I think.

I think there was enough interest in how Lucy was playing it

for me to maybe be able to massage that into a theory against her.

But when we killed Lucy out on the chessboard,

I actually felt quite happy killing Lucy, because...

Well, we could tell.

Alan and Cat were looking really serious and mean,

and you had a big smile on your face. It was the first...

Because I kind of know Lucy, and I really like Lucy,

and I thought, "This is going to be fine,

"because she knows me and I know her and it's a game."

So I was like, for the first time, I was like, "Ha-ha, we got you!"

And then she looked really sad.

And as I went off, I shouted, "See ya, wanna be ya,"

and then... And she sounded sad.

And then I started feeling, "Oh, that was horrible."

I hadn't meant it to be horrible.

I meant it to be like, "Oh, you think it's funny I killed you,

"and I think it's funny I killed you," and it wasn't.

And I just sort of had no appetite for murder any more.

I'd seen what murder is.

I'd looked into the eyes of an innocent victim

and decided, "This isn't really for me."

And so when I was going in, I was thinking,

OK, I've got to say, I've got to go in and say,

"Oh, if it's Lucy that doesn't come in, you know what that means.

"They're setting me up." Didn't say that. Yeah. Yeah.

And then during the day when I mentioned to him,

I thought, OK, I could turn this to my advantage,

maybe, by going round to him saying,

"Look, can I just say," one by one, saying,

"No-one's mentioned Lucy's death pointing at me,

"and I didn't mention it

"because I want to see who's trying to lead you against me,

"and whoever's talking about me in that way and haven't spoken to me,

"I just want you to keep an eye on them."

And I think I might have been able to turn the tide a bit.

And I felt thoroughly disgusted with myself as a human being

for murdering such a sweet woman from Hull.

I do have to rethink your score because I just...

What you've just said then, I'm going with the five.

You're going with the five? Yeah. What do you mean?

High five! High five.

Do you know what the best part... You know what?

I like that five,

because that five is because I'm showing my humanity.

Yeah. And Traitors don't show humanity.

Matter of fact, I'm now working on getting a one from both of you.

Begin to feel OK about myself again.

Now we're talking a lot about Lucy already,

and happily, Lucy will be joining us

right after we see what she had to say

moments after she was murdered, up in the Highlands.

Hi, Lucy. Welcome to Uncloaked. Yay! How are you doing?

Good. Grab a seat.

Lucy, welcome to Uncloaked. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you, Ed. Sorry... Sorry that you were murdered.

It's OK. It's not your fault. Or was it?

No. No, no, no.

Does it get to that point in the game where you're suspecting

everyone and everything, though?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I still am now.

You know Clare Balding? Yeah. Yes, I've heard of her.

I still think she's a Traitor.

No, no, I'm being serious.

You think there's going to be another twist? A sequel.

Yeah. Where we'll all come back

and then we'll find out who the real Traitors are.

Who were you saddest to see leave?

Joe Wilkinson was... Like, well, I've...

Well, we've both known him years, haven't we?

But he's just so fun.

He's just such a good energy to have around. Yeah.

That was a real blow. But Paloma, it were like...

She's like Paloma, like, she is like, she's a superstar.

Like, she's... She's so fun to be around.

Such an interesting person.

It was like, "Why would you take...?"

Like, I was shocked, you know?

And then you did think, "Oh, my God, they mean business,"

you know, it sort of shut us all up a bit.

And that was very early on as well. Yeah.

Did you feel the mood change then when Paloma was murdered?

Well, I think that first Round Table,

we were so worried to sort of speak our mind

because it's like whoever speaks their mind is going to go.

Mm-hm. And they did.

Turning to the Round Tables, how did you find the Round Tables?

Do you think you were good and useful at the Round Tables?

I got better. I was a bit intimidated

at the first Round Table. Um, I found it...

Really we... It's just weird. And also,

like, you know that, like, "What am I doing here?

"I'm 41 years old."

"I'm in a castle trying to hunt down a Traitor."

You know, it's like "What's going on?"

But I was intimidated,

and I think if I had,

if I'd have had an inkling about anything...

I just felt I didn't have anything to go on.

So I thought, well, if I don't,

I'm not going to start incriminating people for the sake of it.

They did a clever thing because by taking out who,

you know, Paloma definitely was the was the loudest,

most outgoing person of the group.

By taking her out first, it almost felt like

they were saying, "Just keep quiet a bit." Right.

"Because if you're loud and outspoken, you could be next."

It's mad that Jonathan and Alan know her the best

and they took her out first.

I was surprised about that. Because that was getting them off the hook,

but of course they knew that, didn't they?

Yeah. So, clever.

OK, Lucy, let's talk about your face-to-face murder.

Yeah. A huge moment in the show.

How did you feel when you turned around on the chessboard

and the three Traitors were standing there?

Oh, my God, it was such a shock. I mean, it was quite thrilling,

but it was really eerie when they've got the cloak...

It's those cloaks. Yeah. And when they took them off...

Because I think I saw Alan's first and was so surprised.

And then Jonathan and then Cat, and I was so...

I was genuinely... felt betrayed by Cat.

I mean, I'm over it now, but I did.

Why were you so shocked by Cat?

Because... Because it was genuine. I was quite hurt in the moment.

But she... At least she seemed sheepish.

The other two didn't at all.

They weren't embarrassed at all.

But because we were becoming really good friends

and I totally trusted her when she said she wasn't.

Because it was like, "Right, at least we've got each other."

You know... I can't believe it. I still can't believe it.

It was so well played.

And I think she'll win because there's always someone

you would incriminate before her. Yeah. Her and Nick,

they're very calming to be around.

And when someone's calming to be around, you trust them.

Lucy, thank you so much for joining me on Uncloaked. Thank you.

It's been a pleasure to see you. Oh, you too.

Sorry you got killed. It's OK.

I'll get over it.

Now joining us from beyond the grave, it's Lucy Beaumont!

Hello, Lucy. Lucy, first... Hiya!

Hello, Lucy. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.

We have Jonathan with us in the studio.

This is obviously the first time you've seen him

since he murdered you. Do you have anything to say to him?

No, no. I've got over it now. Obviously at the time

it did something, brought up past trauma or something.

But now I don't really mind. Really.

He had all the outfits for it, didn't he, anyway?

He dressed like a Traitor. You did dress like a Traitor.

I never even noticed that.

Yeah, I did have more outfits. Remember I told you, I think,

I brought some really ridiculous outfits on, even by my standards.

I brought a full goth outfit in one day,

and I brought, like, a New Romantic outfit in and a punk outfit.

But then when I saw people were sad when they were banished,

I thought, "I don't want them to be looking down

"at a sort of like overweight, mid-60s man with eyeliner on,

"and like his hair teased up with kind of fake tears in his eyes."

That's going to really be a scar they might never recover from.

So I kept them at the back of the wardrobe. Oh, I'm gutted.

I would have absolutely loved that. That would have been amazing.

Lucy, how's it been to have the show go out in the world?

How's the reaction been? Yeah, it is weird.

It never seemed real at the time. Do you know what I mean?

So it's weird that, "Oh, it is a real show."

Does that make sense? I know what you mean.

You're obviously not saying that when you were filming it,

you thought, "This isn't going to go out," but it just...

Do you mean you're so immersed in the game when you're in there,

you almost forget that it's a TV show?

Yeah, I took it too seriously. Someone did come to me and say that,

"You know they're not really getting murdered?"

"Just chill out." And it did help.

"Oh, yeah." Because I was, you know,

when I was in my bed at night,

I was doing, like, diagrams and things.

Can you talk us through these diagrams, please, Lucy? Yeah.

Yeah, well, I did everyone round the Round Table

and then I had, like, arrows, um, you know, between everyone.

But then I got a bit confused, and then I fell asleep.

Um, obviously a huge moment where you're murdered

face-to-face on the chessboard.

Minah, you were involved in a

face-to-face murder in your series. Yep.

Can you offer Lucy any words of encouragement

following her horrible death?

Um, I'm really sorry you had to go through that,

but I imagine it was the Traitors' best moment.

It was a huge moment, wasn't it?

I think if you flip it from a Traitor being kind,

it's an honour to do... To be the person chosen to be...

Yeah. Like, you're so important that they feel that you deserve

to see them murder you. Yeah. It is the best way to be murdered.

I wouldn't want to be murdered

and you don't get to see anyone or you just go home.

Oh, no. I much preferred murdering and them not knowing, frankly.

I loved murdering in the shadows. Skulking in the shadows was great.

Lucy, I almost wish we had Nick here

so you could give him both barrels about sabotaging that mission.

Yeah! When he dropped that bombshell at the Round Table,

how did you feel about that plan that he seemed to have?

Well, this is where it's weird now, watching it back,

because I didn't realise he thought I was a Traitor... Mm.

..so I couldn't understand why he'd done it.

I thought it was like, just because he's, like, into magic and stuff.

But now I get it. But I didn't get a sense of that.

Again, I thought we were really tight, so it's weird, isn't it?

That feeling of like, "Oh, God, no, he never trusted me." Yeah.

So that was a very bold slash confusing tactic from Nick

to sabotage the mission and then admit to it at the Round Table.

As Traitors, we should have made more of that. We should have

made more of that cos we could have capitalised on that. Yeah. 100%.

But at the time, by that stage, I think we were we were kind of

just reeling a little bit. Our names were coming up more

and we were thinking, "OK, well, if it's not pointing at us,

"it's not pointing at us."

And, you know, I was convinced at that stage, and I think I'm right,

I think Nick was convinced I was a Faithful at that stage. Yeah.

So I didn't want to pile on Nick, because I needed support.

But I think people were pretty set on Nick being a Faithful.

I think he's one of... As close as you can get

to 100% Faithful in there, I think. Yeah. Yeah, I think so.

Of the three Traitors, I think Cat was the smartest of the three of us

in terms of understanding how the game was actually playing

in the moment, you know?

Um, and then - it's not saying much - but I was better than Alan.

Lucy, you mentioned that you felt very betrayed

when you found out Cat was a Traitor because you'd grown so close.

How are you feeling now? Um, yeah.

I've had some, like, long walks in the countryside.

Yeah. No, I'm absolutely... Yeah. Fine about it.

Yeah, it... Yeah! I was upset, wasn't I?

Yeah. Well, you were upset, but then when I spoke to you,

as soon as I got out, you were one of the first people I called

because that was so on my mind. I was genuinely upset I'd done that,

and I called you, and I said I was upset.

I was ready to go, though, as well.

Well, I knew you had your VAT returns to do as well.

You told me, and I... You told me and I thought,

"I'm actually doing her a favour,"

because you were very worried about your VAT returns.

And I thought, "Well, that will make me feel better."

No! But I did feel sad. No, don't...

You don't have to make me feel better, I killed YOU.

But what you're forgetting is you knew you were going to see me.

Yeah. I didn't know it was... The shock was...

You can't believe it. Yeah.

But it's like coming back from the dead or something,

you know, and seeing people.

Lucy, you're not with us for very much longer,

but this is your opportunity

to get whatever you like off your chest to Jonathan.

Any closing remarks from you?

No, just only that you've played a good game,

and, um, obviously my respect for you

has gone down massively.

Um, but, you know, I hope your career thrives,

I really do.

And I wish you... I wish you all the best.

Like, I was just so, like,

mesmerised by the amount of textures and textiles you wore.

Only you could pull that off, Jonathan.

Finally, Lucy, are you still suspicious of Clare?

Clare Balding's my number one. Do we go back again?

I'm still sort of like, half anxious,

like I'm still a little bit in gameplay mode.

Well, pack your bags. You're off to the castle today.

There's a car coming for you right now. You're back in.

Thank you so much for joining us, Lucy.

Thank you. It's nice to see you, Luce. See ya!

So obviously at the end of tonight's episode, it was a huge moment.

The first Traitor banished. Jonathan was out,

and he had the Faithful on the edge of their seats

right until the very end.

I've got no idea what everyone's doing wrong.

I cannot believe you've done it again.

I cannot believe

that I'm standing here for no good reason.

So I don't want to be rude, but you're idiots.

But I'm not judging because it's fiendish,

so I am not blaming the players. I'm blaming the game.

I am now and I have been all through the game completely Faithful...

..to the Traitors!

Oh. Oh!

So good. So good. What an exit speech.

It was worth it for Joe's reaction. Because I thought

I could get most of them going, apart from Celia and Joe.

Yeah. I thought, "They're the two."

But when Joe looked genuinely shaken,

I thought, "Good. I've achieved something."

Yeah. Nick had bought it hook, line and sinker.

Oh, my God, Nick was invested. Yeah.

I've never seen him look so confused.

Nick was still on the fence about me a bit, I think, and he thought,

"Well, we've got to try this and it probably is him."

And Joe was so convinced, and he was so convinced Joe was Faithful,

so it was, you know.

Did you count in your head how long you were going to wait

till you say...? I just thought I'd keep doing it

until I sensed Claudia getting nervous.

And then run it out.

But, you know, but it is quite nerve-racking,

but it's also, it is weirdly a relief when you're standing there.

It's the best feeling. You know, it's like,

"Thank God the lying can stop."

Yeah. Do you know what I love, Jonathan,

was when we were watching that clip,

Cat's eyebrows almost frowned up,

as if she thought for a second that you were a Faithful.

Yeah. Did anyone else get on to that?

That was incredible work from Cat in the reactions.

She was so good at keeping it tamped down.

Yeah. But even Alan's quite consistent, though.

Like, he laughed at everybody and he still laughed at you.

We saw at the beginning of the clip he was like grinning

from ear to ear. He's what we call a very generous audience. Yeah.

Obviously it's taken a long time for them to find their first Traitor.

I know. And you know what? Genuinely I'm surprised.

Yeah. Genuinely, all three of us were surprised.

Well, you did call them idiots. Yeah.

But that was... That was playful and affectionate.

I don't think they were bad Faithfuls at all

and I don't think we were particularly good or bad Traitors.

I think just the fiendish nature of this game is that

there are so many moving parts, it's such a kind of...

It's like if you've ever studied fluid mechanics in physics,

it's one of the most difficult things because you can...

You can predict how things are, but it's incredibly fiendish

the amount of computations you have to do.

This is close to fluid mechanics.

It's like, you know, you drop a pebble in something

and it can interact and then it... So many different things.

Every time something's said,

you don't know what's going to be picked up on

and how that impact is going to have on you and then you,

and by the time it gets to me

and whether it's going to be lessened or more,

it's going to be ignored completely and not seen or whatever.

So there's you know, I didn't actually think they were,

they were stupid or bad at the game. I just think it was, if anything,

I think we were a little luckier than we deserved to be.

No! I think you guys were great Traitors.

And Lucy actually mentioned it just before,

when you guys murdered Paloma, it shook everyone.

So I think they were so scared on the Round Tables to say too much

because they thought you guys are going to take them out.

You know, Tom had opinions and then he was murdered.

Well, Tom did go because of his opinions,

because I think I sensed with Tom and with Charlotte,

my feeling about them was that they weren't going to let go.

They were so true to their opinions. The benefit of us

with someone like Lucy was that she was somewhat malleable.

Yes. But then she's given us credit for murdering Paloma.

But as you saw, that was kind of a random act.

Yeah, it was, it was opportunity. It was like...

Look, I knew it would probably be Paloma.

It could just as well have been... I think Ruth was in there.

If Paloma had left first, it might well have been Ruth.

And I think as well like, when you've got people

that hang on evidence instead of changing their evidence every day,

you get rid of them because they don't forget things.

Yeah. What did you think...

The "big dog theory" obviously really took off. Yeah!

Well, it was slightly annoying because obviously

it was focused on me, but it was really based on nothing.

Yeah. I mean, it's based on an idea from outside the game.

And, you know, I don't even know now

whether you could legitimately say it was a good theory.

Like, who do you consider the big dogs now?

OK, me and Stephen were mentioned. Clare's a big dog.

She's huge in her field. Alan's one of the biggest...

He's a stadium comedian.

Clare is big in dogs. Yeah. Clare, dogs...

She's got all the dogs watching for her. And the dogs hate me now.

Um, but, you know,

so there were a lot of people that could have been...

You know, Tom Daley, an Olympian.

He's a multiple-medal-winning Olympian. It's like...

So it didn't really make sense apart from it was convenient for some.

Yeah. Did you see yourself as a leader within the Turret?

Not at all. You seemed like one, though.

I think I was... Look, we've all met men.

And men automatically... Can I speak for us both here? Yes.

Men automatically think their voice should be heard in a group. Yes.

And so inevitably, I was partly,

you know, that's my years of conditioning.

But we listened to Cat as much, if not more than me.

I think more, you know, if you were to break it down,

I think more of the decisions as to who we murdered

came from or were guided by Cat.

At the time, were you aware of this pact

that Alan and Cat had made to throw you under the bus?

It was interesting, though,

I think Cat was more ready to do it than Alan.

You was dropping names here, there and everywhere.

You were throwing out Alan and Cat now and again.

I knew I was going to go that day and I thought,

"If I haven't said their names, this is bad for them." Oh, OK.

Oh! And so I said their names, but I didn't use any persuasion.

Mm. You know, I didn't give any good reason. I just said,

"Well, who are the people... Maybe we should look at people

"we haven't been looking at like Cat and like Alan,

"you know, the quieter voices," and Joe went, "Interesting."

And I was pretty sure, you know, I knew almost without doubt,

Joe was still 100% on me. Celia was still 100% on me.

So I knew whatever I said

was not going to steer them towards...

Unless they had second-guessed me and thought,

"Oh, he's saying Traitors' names," but that's very unlikely.

So I wanted to make sure before I went

that I'd said their names to a couple of people, and I did.

I think that was the only day I said their names,

and I said, I dropped it in a few times, but very lightly.

It's quite nice and unique to have a Traitor that doesn't want to

throw the other Traitors under the bus when they go.

It's quite nice, actually. I probably would have done,

you know, if it had come to it in the Round Table if I had to.

But I didn't want to, and to be honest with you,

of the three of us, even now, if I was playing again,

I'd rather it be me that went first.

Well, Minah, you had a situation

where you finally trusted another Traitor,

and that was the end of you. Was this Charlotte? Yeah.

You can't trust the Welsh.

She's not even Welsh. Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

Because I like Welsh people.

Honestly, yeah. You guys haven't yet had to recruit.

Obviously I don't know what's going to come up next,

but recruiting somebody is the most dangerous thing

for a Traitor because there is kind of trust within yourselves

when you start together. You're on this journey together,

and yes, there's times where you're going to have to

vote each other out, but it's because you have to.

Whereas when you recruit someone,

they can't trust you, because they've watched what you've done.

Yeah. Jonathan, for any future Traitors out there,

do you have any advice that you'd give them?

I think go in being prepared to...

I mean, you've got to go in with a fairly strong sense of self.

And I would say also, you know,

it's the thing that we all know, really,

is don't be too loud, don't be too quiet.

Don't be too quick, don't be too slow.

Don't be too forthright, don't hold yourself back too much.

You've got to stay in the middle

without that itself looking suspicious. Yeah.

Unless you're someone that they know is going to be big.

And that's why I think Alan and Cat are playing such a brilliant game,

because Alan is being bigger than

you think might keep you safe in the game.

But if he wasn't, that would be madly suspicious.

"Why aren't you being like Alan?"

And Cat is being reserved and calm and kind of like,

you know, quite introverted, because that is her. Yeah.

Well, that's all we've got time for here, but don't fret,

the chat continues on BBC Sounds.

Jonathan, Wilf and Minah will be hanging around

to discuss friends amongst the Faithful,

team-mates in the Traitors' Turret, and post-game life.

It's all in the bonus episode of the Uncloaked

in your BBC Sounds app right now.

Find that in your app store or just scan the QR code below.

A huge thank you to Jonathan Ross, Lucy Beaumont,

Wilf and Minah for joining in the fun.

We'll be back tomorrow night after episode eight,

to find out who Alan tries to murder in plain sight,

and who's the last person to get banished before the final.

I'm Ed Gamble. Stay Faithful.

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