Original subtitles

Hello and welcome to another episode of Celebrity Traitors: Uncloaked.

I'm Ed Gamble and this is the official visualised

companion podcast where we'll be picking apart every twist,

turn and betrayal from episode six.

Quick warning - if you haven't watched yet,

this podcast will be packed with spoilers,

so go and catch up on iPlayer, then come back and join us.

Here's what we have coming up.

The big dog Faithful himself, Stephen Fry, will be here

in the studio to break down his time in the castle.

Mark Bonnar will be joining me to discuss

that dramatic double deadlock.

We'll also hear from Joe Wilkinson after he left the game,

and bring you the exclusive moment I reveal to them all

who the Traitors are.

And helping me solve the mystery of what on earth we've just seen,

it's Jaz from series two.

Yes, Jazatha Christie will be here!

This programme contains some strong language

Welcome, Jaz. Look, what a night.

What a night. We've lost three more Faithful, suspicions are climbing,

and the Traitors are, to quote Celia,

"Playing a very clever game."

They're unbelievable. I don't know how they're doing so well.

The Faithfuls should be able to ring someone up,

just so that that person just

answers and gives them a helping hand.

Just a bit of a steer in the right direction.

See, I love watching them flail,

I'll be honest. I think I'm a Traitor at heart.

Look, we've got a lot to get through tonight

because we need to unpack the chessboard mission...

Oh, my God, yeah... Nick and Joe Marler's sabotage of that mission,

and this is exciting for you, Jaz, and for me,

Sir Stephen Fry will be joining us on the sofa in just a minute.

Oh, my days. Let's rewind to Scotland,

where I caught up with him moments after his dramatic exit

from the castle, and I revealed exactly who the Traitors are.

Oh! Ed Gamble, how nice to see you.

Welcome. Welcome to Uncloaked.

Thank you. Grab a seat.

Oh, good gracious. Freedom.

Welcome to Uncloaked, Stephen. Thank you, Ed.

Nice to be here, in a way.

Yeah. Sorry it's under banishment circumstances. Yeah.

How are you feeling post banishment?

I'm fine. It was inevitable.

Um, as the footage will show, I was expecting it.

Let's talk about this big dog theory.

Yes. Because that was the theory that it could be you,

it could be Jonathan. Because Claudia would pick one of

these big dog/national treasures. Yeah.

If by that you mean sort of household name status

or whatever else, it's all a bit embarrassing.

But, yeah, we sort of know what's meant.

In that case, there's only Jonathan and Alan left, really.

So it's possible they're Traitors.

I hadn't really thought either of them were, but I...

I lost all faith in whatever judgment I thought I had anyway.

You know what's about to happen now.

I do. You're about to find out who the Traitors are.

I am. We're going to hold off slightly.

I'm going to tease you a little bit longer,

because I want to ask you who you think the Traitors are.

Prepare to scoff loudly.

I'm going to say Joe Marler,

David Olusoga and Cat Burns.

OK. Why Joe Marler?

You know, first he presented as quite shy and silent,

but with the odd, amazingly, surprisingly good joke.

But he's become so...

And he started to have moments in the Round Tables where he,

he really steers and pushes and makes things known.

Cat I just suspect because she keeps so quietly in the background.

And David, I...

Because he's so smart, so in control, and I can see him

just coolly working out the right person to murder.

OK. The moment's here, Stephen. Oh!

Here we go. I'm going to pass you the scroll.

One at a time. Here we go. All right.

Break the seal.

Jonathan.

FFS!

I mean...

Oh, he played a blinder.

We knew he was a superfan.

We knew he knew better than any of us how the game works.

But he convinced me he wanted to be a Faithful

and then be "recwuited," as he put it.

Can I unfold the next one? You can unfold.

Yes, Cat! I knew it, I knew it!

I am so pleased about that. I really am.

And I got it for a good reason, as well as an instinct,

which was the sleepiness. Yeah.

Oh, well, that's something.

And you're one of the very few so far.

Yeah. She's got a free pass.

Every time her name comes up, "Oh, I don't think it's Cat."

This time...

Ah.

Alan!

What will Paloma say?

Wow! Does he just want to end the relationship?

Alan Carr!

"I don't believe that!"

Two big dogs! Two big dogs. And one small Cat.

Wow.

And Stephen is with us now!

Stephen... Absolutely incredible. Welcome to Uncloaked.

We're delighted to have you here.

Hello, Ed, and hello, Jaz. Nice to see you.

Lovely to see you. It's the big dog.

Have you ever been called a big dog before?

I don't think I ever have. From now on, I'm happy to accept

that that's what I am.

Whether it's a Great Dane or some smelly mongrel with mange,

I'm not sure.

What made you sign up for the show in the first place, Stephen?

Watching it. I watched the second series

and I was just immediately hooked by the human, the human drama of it.

So when, amazingly, the phone rang I found myself saying yes.

I've been in television for 40 years, but I don't think I've ever

done anything that's had such an instant effect.

Every building site and bus shelter I go in, every taxi ride,

every shop I go into, people are saying,

"Oh, yeah, so who are you going to, who are you going to vote off?

"Who are you going to banish, Stephen?"

Or they're going to say, "Can't you see that it's Alan?

"Surely you can see that it's Alan."

I'd say, "No, I couldn't!"

And, you know, the public consciousness

has been truly excited by this.

Of all the places that you spend time, Stephen, I wouldn't expect you

to shout-out building sites and bus shelters first.

I walk past them, you know.

Did the reality of being in there,

did it differ from what you were expecting?

Yes. You can't really prepare yourself for it, can you?

It's an extraordinary feeling.

I think you said a one-liner right in the first episode,

which I just thought, it described

the whole Traitors experience so perfectly.

You went, "So we're about to enter a blizzard of horror."

And I was just thinking,

that is exactly what you're about to enter.

Well, this is why on the first episode of Uncloaked,

there were a few things you said in that initial episode

that you reminded me of some teenage goths I used to hang out with.

It was "a blizzard of horror," and then it was looking at all

of the portraits and everyone was really excited,

and you said, "Well, they'll be covered in red crosses soon."

Let's talk about the missions. How did you find doing the missions?

Did you have any particular favourites?

I have been worried that they would all be a bit like the Trojan Horse

and involve a huge amount of effort, because it was a bit knackering.

Although I was stupidly proud of the fact that I was next

to a loosehead prop who played for England at rugby football,

and he was as exhausted as I was.

And his whole job as a loosehead prop is to do that,

is to push and go like that, and grab people's testicles

and all the other things that rugby players do.

But, but... And kindly, he didn't do that to me.

But so I, you know, but I didn't want all them to be too physical.

Yeah. It's traitorous behaviour,

grabbing someone's nuts during a mission.

You really threw yourself into the missions.

I did. Yeah, yeah.

There's that moment where Claudia suddenly gets worried.

"Oh, no. Stephen Fry's just dipping his head under the water,"

and you're just, like, shoving your head right in the water.

It was fantastic.

Yes, I kind of surprised myself, really.

Because I don't really like physical challenges very much, as a rule.

At school, I'd do anything.

I'd give myself asthma attacks to get out.

Get out of doing any sport or anything like it.

We've just watched the chess mission. Now, there was quite a lot

going on in this mission, with last-minute team changes

and acts of sabotage. That's right,

and Nick had a most peculiar interchange with Joe.

That's right, swapping. And I couldn't quite understand that.

It was clear that Nick was presenting as someone

who was fiercely trying to trap a Traitor somehow by doing this,

but I couldn't quite see his working in it.

You came under a little bit of suspicion

in the team swap thing there, Stephen, as well, for seeming

a little bit grumpy about having to swap.

I was grumpy!

I was, I was grumpy.

I was so convinced I was going to be murdered that night.

I don't know why. I just had this feeling that my time was up.

And you know, I'm not grumpy, exactly,

but I was like, ooh, yeah, a bit put out.

Reflecting on your experience now, Stephen,

if you had to choose again, would you ever choose to be a Traitor?

I'd like to see if I could do it.

I suppose that's one of the things about Traitors,

and I'm sure many viewers watching would love to participate.

Not because they want to be famous on television,

but because they want to see if they can do it.

I think that's the key to the game,

that people just want to play the game.

They really want to. Assuming it was the first thing you checked

when you left the castle,

did you find out how many deaths there were

in Romeo And Juliet and Hamlet combined?

I forgot to check, actually.

I'm still going through. Tybalt, Mercutio, Paris.

I think you said 13. Oh, 13. When you were in.

You're right. 13. Yes.

It's actually 14.14! It's 14.

So, yeah, six in Romeo And Juliet, and eight in Hamlet, apparently.

And if you ask me any follow-up questions,

I have nothing to give you.

Now, still to come, we'll hear from poor murdered Joe Wilkinson.

But before that, Mark will be joining me in the studio,

fresh from that dramatic double deadlock.

Here's the moment I caught up with him in the Highlands

to tell him face-to-face who those pesky Traitors are.

Come in. Hello. Welcome to Uncloaked. Thank you, Ed.

Grab a seat. Thanks for joining us. Merci.

Thanks so much for joining us.

Sorry it's in, you know, banishment circumstances.

Well, you know, hey-ho. That's the game.

As an actor, do you think that gives you an advantage in the game?

No, I think there was a few people that thought that.

I think that it actually might be a disadvantage.

It's not about how good an actor you are or what kind of actor you are.

It's about the person you are and your ability to,

you know, maintain a huge amount of subterfuge.

You know, and I just didn't. I didn't want to do it

and I didn't think I could or would be very good at it.

And in terms of subterfuge, you sort of weren't even keeping

the fact you were looking at other people, to yourself.

Thinking back on that, I don't know...

I just... I wanted to see everybody's face.

But, yeah, in hindsight, I should have done that more subtly.

I think it was the funeral in particular, when I saw you...

I know, I know.

Edging away from people and going...

And then the full head like that. I know!

And I was just thinking, Mark, can you not just look sideways?

Just do that with your eyes.

But you have the full head tilt like an owl.

I know, that was a bit, not performative,

but I thought it would...

Maybe somewhere at the back of my head,

I thought it would do me good, you know, for people to know

that I'm looking, you know?

I'm a Faithful and I'm looking at you.

Trying to play the game. I know.

This is a big moment. I know.

You're going to find out who the Traitors are.

Before I do reveal it to you,

I'm going to ask you who you think they are, first.

Last night, I thought possibly Joe Marler,

Nick, possibly Alan,

and one of either Stephen or Jonathan.

Talk us through those, then. So, Joe Marler.

He is so inscrutable.

Whether he is joking or not, you can never quite tell.

And Nick was another one you thought.

He's very careful with what he says,

and the way that he says it.

He's been in and out of my kind of peripheral vision

as far as Traitors are concerned, as has Alan.

I find Alan...

Alan and Stephen have a very good,

a very strong sort of persona.

That persona kind of would be a very effective shield

to stop people getting in.

And Jonathan for the kind of same reason.

Jonathan is very kind of languid. It's just anything.

It's anything we can possibly grab... Yeah.

To hang our hats on.

So who are your definite Faithfuls?

I would probably say Joe.

I'd probably say David.

I'd probably say Cat.

Well, this is the moment, Mark. You're going to find out.

I can't believe it. I'm so nervous.

We'll go one by one. OK. Here we go. OK.

I knew it.

Read the name out for us.

Jonathan fucking Ross.

Right. Wow. Well played, man. Well played, though.

He's really good at it. Yeah, he's doing very well.

I need to see who else is in that turret with him. Can I look now?

That was, that... Yeah.

Man, she's good. It's Cat, by the way.

Just in case you didn't know.

Because when you said that, when you said,

"I'd like to hear from Cat,"

I was like, hello. He might be on to her here.

Ah, no, I wasn't.

No, I wasn't, I actually...

Well I said just just now, I thought she was 100% Faithful.

She was one of your definite Faithfuls, yeah.

This is exhausting.

Oh.

It's Alan.

"I've got a theory about you."

Well played, though. Do you know what?

On our walk out from the Traitor choice table,

I was beside him, and I glanced at him,

and he was like that,

and I thought, "Oh."

And I've never mentioned it again.

Oh, man.

And Mark joins us now.

Welcome, Mark.

Watching that back, I don't think I've got as much joy

out of a Traitor reveal so far this series.

I am loving every single second of that. Oh, my God.

And I think it's how invested you are and the intensity

that you put into the game.

Yeah. And it's maintained when you found out who the Traitors were.

Yeah. If I've learned anything from doing this,

it's that I can't really sit back and be cool.

I am kind of like a bunny or a horse on heat...

Not a horse on heat.

Whatever. I'm just kind of giddying up for it.

Oestrous mare. Yeah.

It was obviously a very stressful final Round Table for you.

Joe Marler came at you. Yes.

Alan challenged you on wanting to be a Faithful.

Yes. And then it went to this deadlock situation

for the first time in UK Traitors history. Yes.

Before we talk about that dramatic moment,

we're just going to remind ourselves of what happened.

David and Mark, whoever received

the shield will be protected from tonight's banishing.

So to both of you then,

please open the chest in front of you in five...

four...

three...

two...

one.

Well done, man.

I mean, it's obviously a huge moment in Traitors history

and incredible to be part of that moment,

but a gutting way to go.

Yeah, really...

I mean, to go by chance is... Yeah.

I mean, although it was a Traitors first.

It was the gods. It was the gods.

Yes, it was the gods!

What was the tension like in that room?

Oh, it was really... You could cut it

with a Black and Decker tension cutter.

It was extraordinarily tense.

And some people will be watching and they think,

"Oh, for heaven's sake, you're grown-ups.

"It's a game. What on earth...?

"You looked as if, you know, you were about to face a firing squad."

I really did.

Yeah. That is the feeling you get in there.

When people are gunning for you, especially,

it feels personal. It feels personal.

It's hard not to take things personally in that game.

Yeah. And you think, "Oh, it's just a game," you know?

But you naturally will do, like,

as you mentioned before with Joe, you know,

bringing your name up and he's saying

that because you're an actor you'd be a great Traitor.

But at the same time, that's someone that you're naturally close with...

Yeah... and you're going to take that personally.

But I feel like Joe is playing it perfectly at the moment.

He is.

Joe Marler was watching Line Of Duty on his time off.

Do you think that had a bad effect on his opinion of you? Yes!

Yes. That would have done.

Yes! He said in the group chat as much, you know,

he said, "Sorry, Mark, I think I was just watching...

"Confusing you with Dryden too much."

I was like, "What?" And I said that to him

when we were sitting on the bench in the garden,

I said, "Whatever you do, don't confuse me with Dryden."

Yeah. You know, but he did.

It's time now to hear from our latest

murdered player, Joe Wilkinson.

He couldn't be here today,

but I caught up with him right after he was murdered,

to hear his first reactions and to reveal who the Traitors are.

Oh, dear!

He's been murdered. Hello.

You look well. You too. Grab a seat.

Thanks for coming.

Ah, well, I had to, contractually obliged.

Welcome to Uncloaked, Joe. Cheers, Ed.

Look, it's great to have you here,

sorry that you've been murdered.

That's all right. Don't worry about it.

Joe Marler, you seemed to developed quite a friendship with him in there.

I got really lucky having Joe in there

because he's so much fun and such a lovely man.

But he kept going to me,

"If you are a Traitor, I'm going to be so hurt."

And I'm like, "What if I am?" I can't go...

"Sorry, guys. I'm going to have to tell Joe."

Do you think being a comedian in the game

makes it easier or harder?

I just think we're slightly bigger prats. That's all.

I was really looking forward to...

I think it really made me laugh when people started to read into

what I was doing, because I wasn't doing anything.

When I would throw up,

like I'd throw up an opinion, I'd go,

I was expecting, like, a real shock as I'd go...

"OK, gather round...

"I've got a strong suspicion it's Jonathan Ross, for this reason."

And I thought everyone would be like...

but what would happen, people would go,

"All right, anyway, how's your mum?

"How's your mum? She all right?"

Like, nothing went in!

Cos like...

I'd affected nothing for days upon days upon days.

Why is that, do you think?

Well, Cat Burns said that I spoke like every letter was lowercase.

And so it just doesn't have any impact.

Yeah. And she's spot on.

She said, "You just don't have any impact."

Were you expecting to have as much impact as Sir Stephen Fry?

Um, I wouldn't... put myself

in the upper echelons of Stephen Fry, but I thought...

people would absorb some, something.

Yeah, but when Stephen Fry makes a speech and then you say something,

you essentially seem like a man in a betting shop.

Well, the only reason I'm not in a betting shop is because I'm here.

You're about to find out who the Traitors are.

You don't have to tell me.

Do you know, I'm going to wait for the telly show.

Before I show you,

I do want to know your theories as to who the Traitors are.

I think it's Jonathan.

Why Jonathan?

Because I just think he...

would have been a, quite a loud voice...

in the turret. Mh-hm.

I think Cat. Mm-hm.

Only because one of the last things we talked about

is thinking about the last person you think.

So I think Cat, and I'm really hoping this one's true,

I really hope it's Celia. Yeah.

Because she kept saying...

"These Traitors are very clever.

"They're very, very clever."

And that would be her basically saying, "I'm very, very clever."

Who are your definite Faithfuls, Joe?

Joe Marler.

Nick, Lucy...

and Kate Garraway. OK.

There's a name per fold. We'll do them one by one.

Sure.

Jonathan, Cat and Alan.

Yeah. You've just gone through them all.

Yeah. You've taken them in? Yeah.

You were correct about Jonathan. Mm-hm.

You were correct about Cat. Mh-hm.

And who was the last one there, for me?

It was Alan.

So you didn't mention Alan as a Traitor,

but you didn't have him down as a definite Faithful either.

Uh, no.

The one thing I didn't think was...

I think Alan is the only one I'm like,

"He's playing an amazing game."

Yeah. Fair enough.

You got two out of three, it's very impressive.

Yeah, it is. It is. If only...

If only anyone listened to you at the Round Table.

Exactly. If I didn't speak in lowercase,

this would have been...

This would be done in a couple of days.

Could have all had a couple of weeks off.

Not the most dramatic Traitor reveal

we've done all series, I've got to say.

Very funny. But everyone seemed very affected by Joe's murder.

How big a loss was Joe to the group, do you think?

There were those who were very close.

Joe liked him and they were very close.

The Joe-mance, we call it here. Yeah, were very close.

I think Nick and he were very fond of each other, too.

And they were a bit kind of angry at the Traitors.

Sometimes you do feel angry

about the Traitors' choice, don't you?

Yeah, yeah. Why? That is... They are mean!

Look, we're very sad that Joe couldn't be with us today.

I mean, I'm acting as if he's actually been murdered.

He just couldn't make it, schedule-wise,

but he has apparently sent us a little message

for everyone at Uncloaked

and answered a few of our burning questions.

Hello, um, Ed and the audience of Uncloaked.

I'm sorry I couldn't be there tonight.

Um. Absolutely gutted.

Love, I love Uncloaked, I think it's brilliant.

And I think Ed is brilliant.

He's a brilliant presenter and I don't tell him enough.

Um, but anyway, I'm sorry I can't be there.

I'm involved in a quite

a large boot sale at the moment. LAUGHTER

Um, not just selling,

but also I'm involved with

taking the money at the gate.

And it's quite a big

commitment this end.

So, um, apologies.

"Has anything surprised me now that I've seen the episodes?"

Yeah. I'll tell you what has surprised me.

Which, I'll be honest, has bugged me,

is you hardly ever see the room with the snooker table in it.

"What's it like watching

"conversations you weren't there for?"

Ooh, I love it. I love having a listen to the other

conversations because it's like being invisible, isn't it?

You go, "I can hear what you're saying.

"I can hear you gossiping."

I'm not a Traitor. I'm not...

See? It's just the way I carry myself.

"Would you have preferred to be a Traitor

"or still a Faithful?"

Ooh. Well, I've said from day one

I wanted to see the turret.

I wanted to have a little mooch about the turret,

hang out with Claudia...

scheme.

Just basically have more turret time.

I just wanted a bit of turret time.

I hope you have a lovely evening. Bye.

Well, there we are. There's only one Joe Wilkinson.

There is.

There's never been a player quite like Joe, has there?

That did look like the, um,

your Ring doorbell vagrant that you didn't want.

"I'm calling the police now."

"Go away! I am recording this."

Now, before we finish, there's a few

more things we need to talk about.

Mark, what did you make of Nick and Joe's

secret sabotage of the chess mission?

Um, I'm not sure.

What might not have been smart

was Nick revealing it at the Round Table. Yes.

I thought that was quite surprising that he did that.

Another pivotal moment

in this episode was Alan forgetting he had a shield.

Let's have a look. Oh, my God.

I mean, I am really picky.

I feel after my cock-up with Mark, just feels... Yeah.

And also the Traitors murder people

who stick their head above the parapet.

But they didn't murder you overnight, did they?

They also won't murder you tonight.

What?

You've got a shield.

Oh, yeah! Got a shield!

I give up, I give up.

Well, it's a huge moment. That's really interesting.

Why didn't we pile on him more? I know, I know. Crazy.

Joe's on the money again.

Yeah. But with Alan, everyone just seems to be going.

"Oh, that's Alan." Yeah.

He just puts his hand in front of his mouth

and goes like that and takes his glasses off

and blinks and puts them on again.

And there you are. And that's Alan!

Now, if you had to pick who to murder next

out of Kate, Lucy or Nick,

who do you think you would murder if you were in the Traitors' shoes?

Well, I'd see Nick as the biggest threat.

Nick's the biggest threat, definitely.

And Lucy did say that, "Forget the double bluff

"and the triple bluff and everything else.

"It's Jonathan. Look at him."

Yeah, that was an amazing moment where Lucy finally twigs.

"What if it's just the most obvious answer?"

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Kate's had heat on her a few times

throughout the show so far, so I think that's quite a useful

thing for them to have still around. Yes.

Do you think the heat on Kate's sort of worn off a bit now?

Now people realise that is just genuinely her personality?

There is an openness about her,

and I think we certainly see now that the things

that made her suspicious to begin with, to some,

you know, the slight over-the-top big laugh and everything

is just her character. Her character.

We've got used to that.

I love that moment in the chess mission where

she's voted as weakest player, and she's delighted.

She's like, "My weakness has become my strength." Yes!

Stephen, Mark and Jaz, it's been a pleasure having you on Uncloaked.

Thank you so much for being here.

If you're craving more, then head over to BBC Sounds

for the bonus episode, where we get into

what it's really like stepping into

The Traitors game, and spill even more

of those castle secrets with Stephen, Mark and Jaz.

It's in your BBC Sounds app right now.

Just scan the QR code on your screen.

And if you reckon you've got what it takes to be a Traitor

or a Faithful next series, head to...

to apply.

We'll be back after episode seven for more Uncloaked.

But until then, I'm Ed Gamble. Stay Faithful.

https://ko-fi.com/TheArmory