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(Srebnik sings in Polish)
♪A little white house
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♪ Lingers in my memory
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00:04:52,792 --> 00:04:56,086
♪ Of that little white house
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00:04:56,212 --> 00:04:59,089
♪ I dream each night
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00:04:59,674 --> 00:05:02,759
♪ The windows of that little house
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00:05:02,885 --> 00:05:06,430
♪ Beautifully shine in the sun
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00:05:06,556 --> 00:05:09,933
♪ As if someone's eyes
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♪ Were filling with tears
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00:05:13,271 --> 00:05:17,024
♪ There was so much happiness
in that little house
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♪ And so many joyous days
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00:05:19,736 --> 00:05:23,113
♪ When I remember
those blissful moments
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00:05:23,239 --> 00:05:26,616
♪ My heart trembles
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00:05:26,743 --> 00:05:30,245
♪ A little white house
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♪ Lingers in my memory
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♪ Of that little white house
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♪ I dream each night ♪
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(Man ♪ 1 speaking Polish)
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(Female interpreter in French)
He was 13 and a half years old.
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00:05:49,974 --> 00:05:53,643
He had a lovely singing voice
and we heard him.
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♪ A little white house
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00:05:56,397 --> 00:05:59,066
♪ Lingers in my memory
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00:05:59,192 --> 00:06:01,651
♪ Of that little white house
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00:06:01,778 --> 00:06:04,654
♪ I dream each night
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00:06:04,781 --> 00:06:07,699
♪ The windows of that little house
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00:06:07,825 --> 00:06:10,786
♪ Beautifully shine in the sun
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00:06:10,912 --> 00:06:13,997
♪ As if someone's eyes
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00:06:14,123 --> 00:06:17,793
♪ Were filling with tears ♪
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00:06:23,174 --> 00:06:25,509
(Man ♪3 speaking Polish)
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00:06:29,180 --> 00:06:32,641
(Interpreter) When I heard him again,
my heart beat faster,
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00:06:32,767 --> 00:06:36,144
because what happened
here... was a murder.
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00:06:36,979 --> 00:06:39,856
I really relived what happened.
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00:07:14,350 --> 00:07:16,476
(Sighs and coughs)
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(In German)
It's hard to recognise, but it was here.
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00:07:49,844 --> 00:07:53,847
They burned people here.
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00:07:53,973 --> 00:07:56,641
A lot of people were burned here.
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00:08:07,278 --> 00:08:09,696
Yes, this is the place.
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(Crow caws)
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No one ever left here again.
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00:08:57,578 --> 00:09:00,038
The gas vans came in here...
40
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There were two huge ovens...
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(Sighs)
42
00:09:06,045 --> 00:09:10,048
...and after ward,
the bodies were thrown
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00:09:10,883 --> 00:09:13,760
into these ovens,
44
00:09:13,886 --> 00:09:16,680
and the flames reached to the sky.
45
00:09:16,806 --> 00:09:19,808
- (Lanzmann in German) To the sky?
- Ja.
46
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It was terrible.
47
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No one can describe it.
48
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No one can...
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recreate what happened here.
50
00:09:48,421 --> 00:09:51,172
Impossible!
And no one can understand it.
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Even I, here, now.
52
00:10:02,602 --> 00:10:05,020
I can't believe I'm here.
53
00:10:07,857 --> 00:10:10,650
No, I just can't believe it.
54
00:10:22,872 --> 00:10:25,707
It was always this peaceful here.
55
00:10:26,876 --> 00:10:33,006
When they burned 2,000 people...
Jews... every day,
56
00:10:33,132 --> 00:10:35,216
it was just as peaceful.
57
00:10:37,511 --> 00:10:41,556
No one shouted.
Everyone went about his work.
58
00:10:41,682 --> 00:10:43,808
It was silent. Peaceful.
59
00:10:44,560 --> 00:10:46,603
Just as it is now.
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00:10:56,030 --> 00:10:59,074
(Srebnik singing in German)
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00:11:04,872 --> 00:11:06,498
(Cattle lowing)
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00:11:15,508 --> 00:11:19,177
♪ You, girl, don't you cry
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00:11:19,303 --> 00:11:22,305
♪ Don't be so sad
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00:11:22,431 --> 00:11:25,809
♪ For the dear summer is nearing
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♪ And I'll return with it
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00:11:28,187 --> 00:11:31,398
♪ A mug of red wine,
a slice of roast
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00:11:31,524 --> 00:11:34,818
♪ That's what the girls
give their soldiers
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00:11:42,118 --> 00:11:45,412
♪ When the soldiers march along
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00:11:45,538 --> 00:11:48,832
♪ The girls open
their doors and windows... ♪
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00:11:56,632 --> 00:11:59,342
(Man ♪ 1 speaking Polish)
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00:12:00,469 --> 00:12:05,098
(Interpreter in French) They thought
the Germans made him sing on the river.
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00:12:05,224 --> 00:12:07,350
(Men speaking Polish)
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00:12:09,395 --> 00:12:12,313
(Interpreter)
He was a toy to amuse them.
74
00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:15,567
He had to do it.
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00:12:15,693 --> 00:12:18,153
He sang, but his heart wept.
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00:12:22,908 --> 00:12:26,161
(Lanzmann in French) Do their hearts
weep thinking about that now?
77
00:12:26,287 --> 00:12:28,913
- (Men reply)
- (Interpreter) Certainly, very much so.
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00:12:29,039 --> 00:12:31,708
(Man ♪2 continues)
79
00:12:36,088 --> 00:12:38,965
(Interpreter) They still talk about it
around the family table.
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00:12:39,091 --> 00:12:42,177
(Man ♪2 continues)
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It was public, so everyone knew of it.
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(Speaks Polish)
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He said that was true German irony...
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00:12:56,984 --> 00:12:59,652
...people were being killed,
and he had to sing.
85
00:13:01,322 --> 00:13:03,448
That's what I thought.
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00:13:06,452 --> 00:13:09,204
(Lanzmann)
What died in him in Chelmno?
87
00:13:10,414 --> 00:13:12,791
(Speaks Yiddish)
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00:13:18,214 --> 00:13:20,715
(Female Interpreter ♪2 in French)
Everything died.
89
00:13:20,841 --> 00:13:23,134
But he's only human,
and he wants to live.
90
00:13:23,260 --> 00:13:25,595
So he must forget.
91
00:13:26,931 --> 00:13:30,642
The other survivor:
MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK - ISRAEL
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00:13:32,186 --> 00:13:34,187
(Interpreter ♪2 speaks Yiddish)
93
00:13:46,909 --> 00:13:51,412
He thanks God for what remains
and that he can forget.
94
00:13:51,539 --> 00:13:53,623
And let's not talk about that.
95
00:13:56,836 --> 00:13:59,420
(Lanzmann) Does he think
it's good to talk about it?
96
00:13:59,547 --> 00:14:02,882
(Interpreter ♪2 speaks Yiddish)
97
00:14:06,512 --> 00:14:08,763
For me it's not good.
98
00:14:13,435 --> 00:14:16,229
(Lanzmann)
Then why is he talking about it?
99
00:14:16,355 --> 00:14:18,773
(Speaking Yiddish)
100
00:14:32,121 --> 00:14:35,373
Because you're insisting on it.
101
00:14:35,499 --> 00:14:40,420
He was sent books on the Eichmann trial,
where he was a witness,
102
00:14:40,546 --> 00:14:43,006
and he didn't even read them.
103
00:14:48,512 --> 00:14:51,598
(Lanzmann) He survived,
but is he really alive, or...?
104
00:15:16,707 --> 00:15:19,834
(Interpreter) At the time,
he felt as if he were dead,
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00:15:19,960 --> 00:15:23,129
because he never thought
he'd survive,
106
00:15:23,255 --> 00:15:26,090
but... he's alive.
107
00:15:30,846 --> 00:15:33,389
(Lanzmann)
Why does he smile all the time?
108
00:15:42,983 --> 00:15:45,193
(Interpreter)
What do you want him to do, cry?
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00:15:45,319 --> 00:15:47,320
Sometimes you smile,
sometimes you cry.
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00:15:49,281 --> 00:15:51,908
And if you're alive, it's better to smile.
111
00:15:56,205 --> 00:16:00,500
(Lanzmann in French) Why was she
so curious about this story?
112
00:16:00,626 --> 00:16:04,087
(Female Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)
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(Speaking Hebrew)
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00:16:08,050 --> 00:16:11,052
HANNA ZAIDL - ISRAEL
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DAUGHTER OF MOTKE ZAIDL,
SURVIVOR OF VILNA (LITHUANIA)
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00:16:46,755 --> 00:16:49,465
(Interpreter ♪3 in French)
It's a long story.
117
00:16:49,591 --> 00:16:54,137
As a child,
I had little contact with my father.
118
00:16:54,263 --> 00:16:57,807
He went out to work,
and I didn't see much of him.
119
00:16:57,933 --> 00:17:01,519
Besides, he was a silent man,
he didn't talk to me.
120
00:17:01,645 --> 00:17:06,065
And when I grew up
and was strong enough to face him,
121
00:17:06,191 --> 00:17:09,777
I questioned him.
I never stopped questioning him
122
00:17:09,903 --> 00:17:14,073
until I got at the scraps oftruth
he couldn't tell me.
123
00:17:14,199 --> 00:17:17,910
It came out haltingly.
124
00:17:18,037 --> 00:17:20,079
I had to tear the details out of him,
125
00:17:20,205 --> 00:17:26,002
and finally,
when Mr. Lanzmann came,
126
00:17:26,128 --> 00:17:30,798
I heard the whole story
for the second time.
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00:17:30,924 --> 00:17:32,508
MOTKE ZAIDL
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00:17:34,428 --> 00:17:38,556
BEN SHEMEN FOREST, ISRAEL
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(Motke speaks Hebrew)
130
00:17:59,453 --> 00:18:03,706
(Interpreter ♪3 in French) The place
resembles Ponary: the forest, the ditches.
131
00:18:03,832 --> 00:18:06,918
It's as if the bodies were burned here.
132
00:18:07,044 --> 00:18:09,962
Except there were no stones in Ponary.
133
00:18:11,090 --> 00:18:15,009
PONARY: FOREST WHERE MOST
VILNA JEWS WERE MASSACRED
134
00:18:15,135 --> 00:18:20,181
(Lanzmann) But the Lithuanian forests
are denser than the Israeli forest, no?
135
00:18:20,307 --> 00:18:24,227
(Interpreter ♪3 speaks Hebrew)
136
00:18:24,353 --> 00:18:27,396
- (Motke replies)
- Of course.
137
00:18:27,523 --> 00:18:30,942
(Motke continues)
138
00:18:32,319 --> 00:18:37,156
(Interpreter) The trees are similar,
but taller and fuller in Lithuania.
139
00:18:38,200 --> 00:18:42,578
FOREST OF THE EXTERMINATION
CAMP AT SOBIBOR, POLAND
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00:18:42,704 --> 00:18:46,290
(Lanzmann in French) Is there still
hunting here in Sobibor forest?
141
00:18:46,416 --> 00:18:49,627
(Interpreter ♪ 1 speaks Polish)
142
00:18:49,753 --> 00:18:52,839
(Man replies in Polish)
143
00:18:59,555 --> 00:19:04,016
(Interpreter) Yes, there are
lots of animals of all kinds.
144
00:19:07,020 --> 00:19:10,606
(Lanzmann)
Was there hunting then?
145
00:19:10,732 --> 00:19:13,693
(Man replies in Polish)
146
00:19:13,819 --> 00:19:17,071
(Interpreter) Only man hunting.
147
00:19:19,449 --> 00:19:20,992
JAN PIWONSKI
148
00:19:21,118 --> 00:19:23,202
(Speaks Polish)
149
00:19:38,468 --> 00:19:41,262
(Interpreter)
Some victims tried to escape.
150
00:19:46,768 --> 00:19:49,520
But they didn't know the area.
151
00:19:54,193 --> 00:19:58,946
At times people heard explosions
in the minefield.
152
00:19:59,072 --> 00:20:01,782
Sometimes they'd find a deer,
153
00:20:01,909 --> 00:20:05,411
and sometimes a poor Jew
who tried to escape.
154
00:20:19,343 --> 00:20:22,053
(Piwonski continues)
155
00:20:28,852 --> 00:20:32,563
That's the charm of our forests:
the silence and beauty.
156
00:20:41,823 --> 00:20:46,953
(Piwonski continues)
157
00:20:47,079 --> 00:20:50,414
But it wasn't always so silent here.
158
00:21:00,634 --> 00:21:05,012
There was a time
when it was full of screams
159
00:21:05,138 --> 00:21:06,639
and gunshots,
160
00:21:09,101 --> 00:21:10,601
of dogs' barking.
161
00:21:11,937 --> 00:21:14,230
(Piwonski continues)
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00:21:22,614 --> 00:21:25,491
And that period especially
163
00:21:25,617 --> 00:21:28,286
is engraved on the minds of the people
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00:21:28,412 --> 00:21:30,913
who lived here then.
165
00:21:35,252 --> 00:21:37,753
(Piwonski continues)
166
00:21:42,801 --> 00:21:47,888
After the revolt, the Germans
decided to liquidate the camp,
167
00:21:48,015 --> 00:21:50,349
and early in the winter of 1943,
168
00:21:50,475 --> 00:21:54,395
they planted pines that
were three or four years old
169
00:21:54,521 --> 00:21:56,647
to camouflage all the traces.
170
00:21:56,773 --> 00:21:58,190
That screen of trees?
171
00:21:58,317 --> 00:21:59,525
Yes.
172
00:21:59,651 --> 00:22:01,694
(Lanzmann)
That's where the mass graves were?
173
00:22:01,820 --> 00:22:04,071
(Interpreter ♪ 1 speaks Polish)
174
00:22:06,742 --> 00:22:08,200
Yes.
175
00:22:08,327 --> 00:22:10,661
(Piwonski continues)
176
00:22:19,963 --> 00:22:23,132
When he first came here in 1944,
177
00:22:23,258 --> 00:22:27,094
you couldn't guess
what had happened here,
178
00:22:27,220 --> 00:22:32,058
that these trees were hiding
the secret of a death camp.
179
00:22:36,104 --> 00:22:39,815
(Lanzmann) How did he react,
the first time he unloaded corpses,
180
00:22:39,941 --> 00:22:42,902
when the gas van doors were opened?
181
00:22:43,028 --> 00:22:45,613
(Interpreter ♪2 speaks Yiddish)
182
00:22:56,541 --> 00:22:59,126
What could he do? He cried.
183
00:23:07,803 --> 00:23:10,930
The third day,
he saw his wife and children.
184
00:23:31,952 --> 00:23:35,663
He placed his wife in the grave
and asked to be killed.
185
00:23:35,789 --> 00:23:38,707
The Germans said
he was strong enough to work,
186
00:23:38,834 --> 00:23:41,252
that he wouldn't be killed yet.
187
00:23:58,728 --> 00:24:00,813
(Lanzmann)
Was the weather very cold?
188
00:24:02,357 --> 00:24:04,608
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)
189
00:24:04,734 --> 00:24:07,319
(Podchlebnik replies)
190
00:24:09,948 --> 00:24:15,077
It was in the winter of 1942,
in early January.
191
00:24:18,707 --> 00:24:22,751
(Lanzmann) At that time,
the bodies weren't burned, just buried?
192
00:24:24,754 --> 00:24:26,881
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)
193
00:24:29,968 --> 00:24:31,844
(Podchlebnik replies)
194
00:24:49,696 --> 00:24:53,908
No, they were buried,
and each row was covered with dirt.
195
00:24:54,034 --> 00:24:56,035
They weren't being burned yet.
196
00:24:56,161 --> 00:24:58,412
There were around four or five layers.
197
00:24:58,538 --> 00:25:01,415
The ditches were funnel-shaped.
198
00:25:01,875 --> 00:25:04,168
(Podchlebnik continues)
199
00:25:10,258 --> 00:25:13,469
They dumped the bodies
in these ditches,
200
00:25:13,595 --> 00:25:17,681
and they had to lay them out
like herrings, head to foot.
201
00:25:28,193 --> 00:25:33,239
(Lanzmann) So it was they who dug up
and burned all the Jews of Vilna?
202
00:25:33,907 --> 00:25:34,907
Yes.
203
00:25:34,908 --> 00:25:37,993
(Man speaks Hebrew)
204
00:25:39,621 --> 00:25:42,248
(Interpreter ♪3 in French)
In early January 1944,
205
00:25:42,374 --> 00:25:44,917
we began digging up the bodies.
206
00:25:46,127 --> 00:25:48,170
(Man continues)
207
00:25:55,762 --> 00:25:58,597
When the last mass grave was opened,
208
00:25:59,099 --> 00:26:01,350
I recognised my whole family.
209
00:26:04,396 --> 00:26:07,189
(Lanzmann in French)
Whom in his family did he recognise?
210
00:26:07,315 --> 00:26:09,650
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)
211
00:26:18,952 --> 00:26:22,121
Mum and my sisters.
Three sisters with their kids.
212
00:26:22,247 --> 00:26:24,540
They were all in there.
213
00:26:25,041 --> 00:26:27,167
(Lanzmann)
How could he recognise them?
214
00:26:29,671 --> 00:26:32,214
ITZHAK DUGIN:
SURVIVOR OF VILNA
215
00:26:54,487 --> 00:26:57,281
They'd been in the earth 4 months,
216
00:26:57,407 --> 00:26:59,742
and it was winter.
217
00:26:59,868 --> 00:27:01,660
They were very well preserved.
218
00:27:01,786 --> 00:27:05,623
I recognised their faces,
their clothes too.
219
00:27:06,791 --> 00:27:09,793
(Lanzmann)
They'd been killed relatively recently?
220
00:27:09,919 --> 00:27:14,757
(Interpreter ♪3 speaking Hebrew)
221
00:27:16,843 --> 00:27:18,385
Yes.
222
00:27:19,971 --> 00:27:22,056
(Lanzmann)
And it was the last grave?
223
00:27:22,557 --> 00:27:25,100
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)
224
00:27:25,226 --> 00:27:27,519
- (Dugin replies)
- Yes.
225
00:27:29,064 --> 00:27:32,900
(Lanzmann) The Nazi plan was
for them to open the graves
226
00:27:33,026 --> 00:27:34,985
starting with the oldest?
227
00:27:35,904 --> 00:27:38,447
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)
228
00:27:48,291 --> 00:27:49,708
Yes.
229
00:28:20,031 --> 00:28:22,991
The last graves were the newest,
230
00:28:23,118 --> 00:28:27,788
and we started with the oldest,
those of the first ghetto.
231
00:28:27,914 --> 00:28:30,916
In the first grave,
there were 24,000 bodies.
232
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:38,882
(Motke speaks Hebrew)
233
00:28:43,346 --> 00:28:47,433
(Interpreter ♪3) The deeper you dug,
the flatter the bodies were.
234
00:28:47,559 --> 00:28:50,436
Each was almost a flat slab.
235
00:28:50,562 --> 00:28:54,398
(Motke continues)
236
00:28:54,524 --> 00:28:58,235
When you tried to grasp a body,
it crumbled,
237
00:28:58,361 --> 00:29:00,612
it was impossible to pick them up.
238
00:29:08,913 --> 00:29:13,333
We had to open the graves,
but without tools.
239
00:29:13,460 --> 00:29:17,171
They said, "Get used to working
with your hands."
240
00:29:17,297 --> 00:29:19,882
(Lanzmann)
With just their hands?
241
00:29:20,633 --> 00:29:22,676
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)
242
00:29:23,511 --> 00:29:24,511
Yes.
243
00:29:43,656 --> 00:29:45,866
When we first opened the graves,
244
00:29:45,992 --> 00:29:49,411
we couldn't help it,
we all burst out sobbing.
245
00:29:49,537 --> 00:29:54,291
But the Germans almost
beat us to death.
246
00:29:54,417 --> 00:29:58,170
We had to work
at a killing pace for two days,
247
00:29:58,296 --> 00:30:01,048
beaten all the time, and with no tools.
248
00:30:02,759 --> 00:30:04,301
(Lanzmann)
They all burst out sobbing?
249
00:30:04,427 --> 00:30:06,553
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)
250
00:30:10,975 --> 00:30:12,976
(Motke continues)
251
00:30:27,617 --> 00:30:30,035
The Germans even forbade us
252
00:30:30,161 --> 00:30:33,705
to use the words "corpse" or "victim."
253
00:30:33,832 --> 00:30:37,501
The dead were blocks of wood, shit,
254
00:30:37,627 --> 00:30:40,671
with absolutely no importance...
255
00:30:42,882 --> 00:30:47,594
(Dugin speaks Hebrew)
256
00:30:47,720 --> 00:30:51,348
Anyone who said "corpse"
or "victim" was beaten.
257
00:30:52,517 --> 00:30:57,479
(Dugin continues)
258
00:30:57,605 --> 00:31:02,651
The Germans made us
refer to the bodies as "Figuren,"
259
00:31:02,777 --> 00:31:05,612
that is, as puppets, as dolls...
260
00:31:06,322 --> 00:31:08,991
- Schmattes.
- As "Schmattes," which means "rags."
261
00:31:11,744 --> 00:31:13,745
(Lanzmann)
Were they told at the start
262
00:31:13,872 --> 00:31:16,957
how many "Figuren"
there were in all the graves?
263
00:31:17,083 --> 00:31:20,878
(Interpreter ♪3 in Hebrew)
264
00:31:21,004 --> 00:31:23,255
(Motke replies)
265
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,559
The head of the Vilna Gestapo told us,
266
00:31:35,685 --> 00:31:39,271
"There are 90,000 people lying there,
267
00:31:39,397 --> 00:31:42,441
and absolutely no trace
must be left of them."
268
00:31:49,490 --> 00:31:53,368
(In German)
It was at the end of November 1942.
269
00:31:55,371 --> 00:32:00,208
They chased us away from our work
270
00:32:01,711 --> 00:32:04,463
and back to our barracks.
271
00:32:04,589 --> 00:32:06,506
Suddenly,
272
00:32:07,592 --> 00:32:15,015
from the part of the camp called
273
00:32:16,142 --> 00:32:20,771
the death camp,
274
00:32:22,899 --> 00:32:25,067
flames shot up very high.
275
00:32:27,195 --> 00:32:32,950
In a flash, the whole countryside,
276
00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:36,912
the whole camp seemed ablaze.
277
00:32:39,666 --> 00:32:41,583
It was already dark.
278
00:32:44,837 --> 00:32:48,840
We went into our barracks
279
00:32:50,593 --> 00:32:52,678
and ate...
280
00:32:53,179 --> 00:32:58,183
And from the window,
281
00:32:58,309 --> 00:33:04,106
we kept on watching
the fantastic backdrop of flames
282
00:33:04,232 --> 00:33:06,733
of every imaginable colour,
283
00:33:07,986 --> 00:33:11,697
red, yellow, green, purple.
284
00:33:11,823 --> 00:33:19,823
And suddenly one of us stood up.
285
00:33:20,873 --> 00:33:27,087
We knew he'd been
an opera singer in Warsaw.
286
00:33:29,048 --> 00:33:33,260
His name was Salve, and...
287
00:33:33,386 --> 00:33:35,554
- (Lanzmann) Salve?
- Salve.
288
00:33:37,932 --> 00:33:41,852
Facing that curtain of fire,
289
00:33:41,978 --> 00:33:46,189
he began chanting a song
290
00:33:46,315 --> 00:33:49,818
I didn't know:
291
00:33:50,695 --> 00:33:52,487
"My God, my God,
292
00:33:54,240 --> 00:33:57,034
why hast Thou forsaken us?"
293
00:33:57,160 --> 00:34:01,246
RICHARD GLAZAR -
BASEL, SWITZERLAND
294
00:34:03,291 --> 00:34:08,170
"We have been thrust
into the fire before,
295
00:34:08,296 --> 00:34:13,800
but we have never denied
Thy Holy Law."
296
00:34:15,553 --> 00:34:19,139
He sang in Yiddish,
297
00:34:19,265 --> 00:34:21,600
while, behind him,
298
00:34:21,726 --> 00:34:26,772
blazed the pyres
299
00:34:27,482 --> 00:34:33,820
on which they had begun then,
in November 1942,
300
00:34:33,946 --> 00:34:37,074
to burn the bodies in Treblinka.
301
00:34:38,785 --> 00:34:43,789
That was the first time it happened.
302
00:34:45,374 --> 00:34:47,292
We knew that night
303
00:34:47,418 --> 00:34:51,630
that the dead would no longer
be buried,
304
00:34:53,132 --> 00:34:55,133
they'd be burned.
305
00:34:55,635 --> 00:34:58,303
TREBLINKA
306
00:35:24,705 --> 00:35:29,417
(Interpreter) When things were ready,
they poured on fuel
307
00:35:29,544 --> 00:35:31,586
and touched off the fire.
308
00:35:31,712 --> 00:35:34,047
They waited for a high wind.
309
00:35:34,173 --> 00:35:38,093
The pyres usually burned
for 7 or 8 days.
310
00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:49,771
(Srebnik) There was a concrete platform
some distance away,
311
00:35:50,982 --> 00:35:53,984
and the bones that hadn't burned,
312
00:35:54,110 --> 00:35:56,736
the big bones of the feet, for example,
313
00:35:56,863 --> 00:35:59,281
we took...
314
00:36:00,449 --> 00:36:03,952
There was a chest with two handles.
315
00:36:04,078 --> 00:36:07,080
We carried the bones there,
316
00:36:07,206 --> 00:36:13,378
where others had to crush them.
317
00:36:13,504 --> 00:36:16,256
It was very fine,
318
00:36:17,508 --> 00:36:20,302
that powdered bone.
319
00:36:20,428 --> 00:36:23,680
Then it was put into sacks,
320
00:36:24,515 --> 00:36:28,685
and when there were enough sacks,
321
00:36:28,811 --> 00:36:33,773
we went to a bridge on the Narew river
322
00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:36,401
and dumped the powder.
323
00:36:36,527 --> 00:36:38,320
The current carried it off.
324
00:36:40,740 --> 00:36:43,200
It drifted downstream.
325
00:36:50,917 --> 00:36:54,628
(♪Srebnik sings in Polish:
"Little White House")
326
00:37:17,485 --> 00:37:20,570
(Lanzmann in English)
You never returned to Poland since?
327
00:37:20,696 --> 00:37:22,405
(Woman) No.
328
00:37:22,531 --> 00:37:24,991
I wanted many times.
329
00:37:25,660 --> 00:37:29,412
But what will I see?
330
00:37:32,375 --> 00:37:34,668
How can I face it?
331
00:37:39,423 --> 00:37:42,759
My grandparents are buried in Lodz.
332
00:37:42,885 --> 00:37:47,013
And, at one point, I heard
from somebody that visited Poland
333
00:37:47,139 --> 00:37:50,850
that they want to level off the cemetery,
334
00:37:50,977 --> 00:37:53,019
do away with the cemetery.
335
00:37:53,145 --> 00:37:56,189
Now how can I return to that, to visit?
336
00:37:58,401 --> 00:38:00,986
(Lanzmann)
When did they die, your grandparents?
337
00:38:01,862 --> 00:38:04,155
- My grandparents?
- Mm-hmm.
338
00:38:04,282 --> 00:38:06,783
My grandparents died in the ghetto,
quickly.
339
00:38:06,909 --> 00:38:09,619
They were elderly,
and within a couple years...
340
00:38:09,745 --> 00:38:13,373
Within a year, my grandfather died.
And my grandmother the next year.
341
00:38:13,499 --> 00:38:15,083
In the ghetto, yes.
342
00:38:17,128 --> 00:38:21,214
PAULA BIREN - CINCINNATI, USA
SURVIVOR OF AUSCHWITZ
343
00:38:28,306 --> 00:38:32,100
THE JEWISH CEMETERY
IN LODZ TODAY
344
00:38:35,271 --> 00:38:37,564
(Crows cawing)
345
00:39:03,299 --> 00:39:04,966
(Church bells ringing)
346
00:39:05,092 --> 00:39:07,427
AUSCHWITZ: THE TOWN
347
00:39:08,220 --> 00:39:12,182
(Lanzmann in French)
Mrs. Pietyra, you live in Auschwitz?
348
00:39:12,308 --> 00:39:14,726
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and Pietyra
speak in Polish)
349
00:39:14,852 --> 00:39:16,978
(Interpreter in French)
Yes, I was born here.
350
00:39:17,104 --> 00:39:19,064
(Lanzmann)
And you've never left Auschwitz?
351
00:39:19,190 --> 00:39:21,274
(Speaking Polish)
352
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:22,984
No, never.
353
00:39:23,110 --> 00:39:25,945
(Lanzmann) Were there Jews
in Auschwitz before the war?
354
00:39:31,744 --> 00:39:34,329
(Interpreter) They made up
80% of the population.
355
00:39:37,166 --> 00:39:38,500
(Speaking Polish)
356
00:39:38,626 --> 00:39:41,086
They even had a synagogue here.
357
00:39:41,212 --> 00:39:42,962
(Lanzmann) Just one?
358
00:39:44,924 --> 00:39:47,092
- Just one, I think.
- (Lanzmann) Does it still exist?
359
00:39:51,931 --> 00:39:53,848
No, it was wrecked.
360
00:39:53,974 --> 00:39:56,393
There's something else there now.
361
00:39:56,519 --> 00:39:58,770
(Lanzmann) Was there
a Jewish cemetery in Auschwitz?
362
00:39:58,896 --> 00:40:01,523
(Interpreter ♪ 1 speaking Polish)
363
00:40:05,361 --> 00:40:08,905
It still exists. It's closed now.
364
00:40:09,031 --> 00:40:11,616
- It still exists?
- Yes.
365
00:40:15,704 --> 00:40:17,789
(Lanzmann) Closed?
What does that mean?
366
00:40:21,335 --> 00:40:23,837
They don't bury there now.
367
00:40:25,381 --> 00:40:28,258
(♪Congregation sings Polish hymn)
368
00:40:44,024 --> 00:40:46,234
(Lanzmann in French)
Was there a synagogue in Wlodawa?
369
00:40:47,319 --> 00:40:49,195
(Speaking Polish)
370
00:40:49,321 --> 00:40:51,906
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French)
Yes, and it's very beautiful.
371
00:40:52,032 --> 00:40:56,911
(Speaking Polish)
372
00:40:57,037 --> 00:40:59,998
When Poland was ruled by the czars,
373
00:41:00,124 --> 00:41:02,709
that synagogue already existed.
374
00:41:05,379 --> 00:41:09,007
It's even older than the Catholic church.
375
00:41:09,133 --> 00:41:13,428
(Continues in Polish)
376
00:41:38,078 --> 00:41:40,872
It's no longer used.
377
00:41:40,998 --> 00:41:43,416
(Man continues)
378
00:41:43,542 --> 00:41:45,502
There's no one to go to it.
379
00:41:52,885 --> 00:41:55,553
(Lanzmann in French)
These buildings haven't changed?
380
00:41:55,679 --> 00:41:57,680
(Speaking Polish)
381
00:42:01,727 --> 00:42:05,230
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French) Not at all.
There were barrels of herrings here,
382
00:42:05,356 --> 00:42:07,357
and the Jews sold fish.
383
00:42:08,943 --> 00:42:11,778
There were stalls, small shops,
384
00:42:11,904 --> 00:42:14,864
Jewish business,
as the gentleman says.
385
00:42:17,159 --> 00:42:20,537
- (Man continues)
- That's Barenholz's house.
386
00:42:20,663 --> 00:42:23,331
- (Man continues)
- He sold wood.
387
00:42:23,457 --> 00:42:25,416
(Man continues)
388
00:42:29,797 --> 00:42:32,173
Lipschitz's store was there.
He sold cloth.
389
00:42:32,299 --> 00:42:34,217
(Lanzmann) This was Lichtenstein's.
390
00:42:34,343 --> 00:42:35,802
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Lichtenstein, yes.
391
00:42:35,928 --> 00:42:38,346
(Lanzmann)
What was there, opposite?
392
00:42:40,599 --> 00:42:42,684
A food store.
393
00:42:42,810 --> 00:42:45,270
(Lanzmann) A Jewish store?
394
00:42:45,396 --> 00:42:46,896
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Yes.
395
00:42:48,774 --> 00:42:51,025
There was a notions shop here,
396
00:42:51,151 --> 00:42:54,821
it sold thread, needles,
odds and ends,
397
00:42:58,158 --> 00:43:00,660
and there were also three barbers.
398
00:43:01,829 --> 00:43:04,289
PAN FILIPOWICZ
399
00:43:05,207 --> 00:43:08,087
- (Lanzmann) Was that fine house Jewish?
- (Interpreter ♪ 1) It's Jewish.
400
00:43:08,711 --> 00:43:11,671
- And this small one?
- Also.
401
00:43:11,797 --> 00:43:15,925
- And the one behind it?
- These were all Jewish.
402
00:43:16,051 --> 00:43:21,055
- This one on the left, too?
- That one too.
403
00:43:22,349 --> 00:43:25,977
(Lanzmann) Who lived in it? Borenstein?
(Filipowicz) Borenstein.
404
00:43:26,103 --> 00:43:30,607
- (Filipowicz continues)
- He was in the cement business.
405
00:43:30,733 --> 00:43:33,276
He was very handsome,
and cultivated.
406
00:43:34,903 --> 00:43:37,071
(Filipowicz continues)
407
00:43:37,197 --> 00:43:40,325
Here there was a blacksmith
named Tepper.
408
00:43:40,451 --> 00:43:42,577
It was a Jewish house.
409
00:43:43,704 --> 00:43:45,538
A shoemaker lived here.
410
00:43:45,664 --> 00:43:49,626
(Lanzmann) What was his name?
(Filipowicz) Yankel.
411
00:43:51,629 --> 00:43:54,547
(Lanzmann) You get the feeling
Wlodawa was a Jewish city.
412
00:43:54,673 --> 00:43:57,925
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
413
00:43:58,052 --> 00:44:00,428
- (Filipowicz replies)
- Yes, because it's true.
414
00:44:00,554 --> 00:44:02,013
(Filipowicz continues)
415
00:44:02,139 --> 00:44:06,142
The Poles lived farther out,
the centre was wholly Jewish.
416
00:44:08,020 --> 00:44:10,480
(Lanzmann in French) What happened
to the Jews of Auschwitz?
417
00:44:10,606 --> 00:44:16,486
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and Pietyra
speak Polish)
418
00:44:16,612 --> 00:44:19,697
They were expelled and resettled,
419
00:44:19,823 --> 00:44:21,866
but I don't know where.
420
00:44:21,992 --> 00:44:23,951
(Lanzmann) What year was that?
421
00:44:24,078 --> 00:44:27,246
(Pietyra replies)
422
00:44:27,373 --> 00:44:32,585
It began in 1940,
which was when I moved here.
423
00:44:32,711 --> 00:44:35,171
This apartment also belonged to Jews.
424
00:44:36,006 --> 00:44:39,592
(Lanzmann)
According to our information,
425
00:44:39,718 --> 00:44:44,097
the Auschwitz Jews were "resettled,"
as they say,
426
00:44:44,223 --> 00:44:48,643
nearby, in Benzin
and Sosnowiec, in Upper Silesia.
427
00:44:51,105 --> 00:44:53,731
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
Yes, because those were Jewish towns.
428
00:44:53,857 --> 00:44:58,361
(Lanzmann) Does she know what
happened to the Jews of Auschwitz?
429
00:44:58,487 --> 00:45:01,739
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
430
00:45:04,201 --> 00:45:07,161
I think they all ended up in the camp.
431
00:45:07,287 --> 00:45:10,289
(Lanzmann) That is,
they returned to Auschwitz?
432
00:45:11,083 --> 00:45:12,208
Yes.
433
00:45:14,586 --> 00:45:18,631
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU
434
00:45:26,140 --> 00:45:28,141
(Pietyra continues)
435
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:36,858
All kinds of people from everywhere
were sent here.
436
00:45:37,609 --> 00:45:40,820
All the Jews came here... to die.
437
00:45:49,204 --> 00:45:50,955
(Lanzmann) What did they think
438
00:45:51,081 --> 00:45:53,708
when Wlodawa's Jews were
all deported to Sobibor?
439
00:45:53,834 --> 00:45:56,169
(Speaking Polish)
440
00:45:56,712 --> 00:46:00,798
WLODAWA - SOBIBOR:
10 MILES
441
00:46:07,723 --> 00:46:09,932
(In French) What could we think?
442
00:46:10,058 --> 00:46:15,897
That it was the end of them,
but they had foreseen that.
443
00:46:16,023 --> 00:46:17,690
(Lanzmann) How so?
444
00:46:17,816 --> 00:46:19,400
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
445
00:46:34,082 --> 00:46:37,210
Even before the war,
when you talked to the Jews,
446
00:46:37,336 --> 00:46:39,128
they foresaw their doom.
447
00:46:39,254 --> 00:46:40,671
He doesn't know how.
448
00:46:40,798 --> 00:46:43,633
Even before the war,
they had a premonition.
449
00:46:53,936 --> 00:46:56,479
(Lanzmann) How were they taken
to Sobibor? On foot?
450
00:46:56,939 --> 00:46:58,856
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
451
00:46:58,982 --> 00:47:02,902
(Filipowicz replies)
452
00:47:03,028 --> 00:47:06,447
It was frightful.
He watched it himself.
453
00:47:06,573 --> 00:47:09,534
(Filipowicz continues)
454
00:47:09,660 --> 00:47:13,913
They were herded on foot
to a station called Orkrobek.
455
00:47:14,039 --> 00:47:16,916
(Train clacking)
456
00:47:17,626 --> 00:47:22,880
(Filipowicz continues)
457
00:47:23,006 --> 00:47:29,095
There, they put the old people first
into waiting cattle cars...
458
00:47:32,224 --> 00:47:34,392
...then the younger Jews...
459
00:47:38,063 --> 00:47:40,273
...and finally the kids.
460
00:47:40,399 --> 00:47:45,111
That was the worst:
They threw them on top of the others.
461
00:48:22,316 --> 00:48:24,650
(Lanzmann)
Were there a lot of Jews in Kolo?
462
00:48:24,776 --> 00:48:26,694
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
463
00:48:26,820 --> 00:48:29,071
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French)
A great many.
464
00:48:29,197 --> 00:48:32,825
- (Man continues)
- More Jews than Poles.
465
00:48:33,827 --> 00:48:36,787
(Lanzmann)
And what happened to the Kolo Jews?
466
00:48:36,914 --> 00:48:38,873
Was he an eyewitness?
467
00:48:39,458 --> 00:48:41,375
PAN FALBORSKI
468
00:48:41,501 --> 00:48:43,502
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
469
00:48:43,629 --> 00:48:46,756
Yes. It was frightful.
470
00:49:03,357 --> 00:49:04,482
Frightful to see.
471
00:49:04,608 --> 00:49:07,443
Even the Germans hid,
they couldn't see that.
472
00:49:07,569 --> 00:49:11,948
When the Jews were herded
to the station, they were beaten,
473
00:49:12,074 --> 00:49:13,491
some were even killed.
474
00:49:13,617 --> 00:49:19,455
A cart followed the convoy
to pick up the corpses.
475
00:49:19,581 --> 00:49:22,291
(Lanzmann)
Those who couldn't walk, the slain?
476
00:49:22,417 --> 00:49:24,251
Yes, those who'd fallen.
477
00:49:24,378 --> 00:49:26,587
Where did this happen?
478
00:49:28,507 --> 00:49:30,466
(Speaks Polish)
479
00:49:46,525 --> 00:49:51,070
The Jews were collected
in the Kolo synagogue.
480
00:49:51,196 --> 00:49:54,407
Then they were herded to the station,
481
00:49:54,533 --> 00:49:58,577
where the narrow-gauge railway
went to Chelmno.
482
00:50:07,045 --> 00:50:11,090
(Lanzmann) It happened to all the Jews
in the area, not just in Kolo?
483
00:50:12,092 --> 00:50:14,051
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
484
00:50:16,930 --> 00:50:18,472
(Falborski replies)
485
00:50:18,598 --> 00:50:20,099
Absolutely.
486
00:50:20,600 --> 00:50:23,519
- Everywhere.
- (Falborski continues)
487
00:50:27,065 --> 00:50:29,650
Jews were also murdered
in the forests
488
00:50:29,776 --> 00:50:32,278
near Kalisz, not far from here.
489
00:50:44,583 --> 00:50:47,001
(Locomotive chugging)
490
00:50:49,379 --> 00:50:52,173
(Train whistle blows)
491
00:52:52,586 --> 00:52:54,712
(Man in English)
There was a sign.
492
00:52:54,838 --> 00:52:59,717
There was a small sign
on the station of Treblinka.
493
00:53:00,218 --> 00:53:04,972
I don't know if we were at the station
or if we did not go up to the station.
494
00:53:05,098 --> 00:53:07,683
ABRAHAM BOMBA - TEL AVIV, ISRAEL
SURVIVOR OF TREBLINKA
495
00:53:07,809 --> 00:53:10,477
On the line over there
where we stayed,
496
00:53:10,604 --> 00:53:14,690
there was a small sign, very small sign,
which say "Treblinka."
497
00:53:14,816 --> 00:53:19,737
That was the first time in my life
I heard about that name "Treblinka,"
498
00:53:19,863 --> 00:53:22,406
because nobody know.
499
00:53:22,908 --> 00:53:26,577
It is not a place.
There is not a city.
500
00:53:26,703 --> 00:53:29,622
Or it is not even a small village.
501
00:53:32,083 --> 00:53:36,128
TREBLINKA BY ROAD
502
00:53:38,423 --> 00:53:41,800
Jewish people always dreamed,
503
00:53:41,927 --> 00:53:44,178
and that was part of their life.
504
00:53:44,304 --> 00:53:46,347
It was part of their messiah,
505
00:53:46,473 --> 00:53:51,727
to dream that someday
they're going to be free.
506
00:53:52,979 --> 00:53:57,524
That dream was mostly true
in the ghetto.
507
00:53:58,985 --> 00:54:01,612
Every day, every single night,
508
00:54:01,738 --> 00:54:04,865
I dreamed about a thing
that's going to be good.
509
00:54:06,701 --> 00:54:08,118
Not only the dream,
510
00:54:08,245 --> 00:54:12,498
but the hope conserved in a dream.
511
00:54:19,881 --> 00:54:23,884
The first transport from Czestochowa
512
00:54:24,010 --> 00:54:27,388
was sent away at the day
of the Yom Kippur.
513
00:54:28,390 --> 00:54:33,227
The day before Sukkoth,
there was the second transport.
514
00:54:33,353 --> 00:54:35,646
I was together with them.
515
00:54:37,983 --> 00:54:42,778
I know, only in my heart I know,
that there's something that is not good,
516
00:54:42,904 --> 00:54:44,863
because, if they take children,
517
00:54:44,990 --> 00:54:47,533
if they take old people
and they send them away,
518
00:54:47,659 --> 00:54:50,077
that means it is not good.
519
00:54:50,203 --> 00:54:55,082
What they said is they'd take them away
to a place where they would be working.
520
00:54:55,750 --> 00:54:57,584
But, on the other hand,
521
00:54:57,711 --> 00:55:01,880
an old woman or a little child
from a week or four weeks or five years,
522
00:55:02,007 --> 00:55:04,049
what is he going to work?
523
00:55:05,302 --> 00:55:08,637
That was a foolish thing,
but, still, we had no choice.
524
00:55:08,763 --> 00:55:10,639
We believed in that.
525
00:55:32,037 --> 00:55:34,788
(Man speaks Polish)
(Interpreter) He was born here...
526
00:55:34,914 --> 00:55:37,374
in 1923...
527
00:55:37,500 --> 00:55:40,502
and has been here ever since.
528
00:55:42,422 --> 00:55:44,840
(Lanzmann in French)
He lived at this very spot?
529
00:55:44,966 --> 00:55:46,550
(Interpreter) Right here.
530
00:55:46,676 --> 00:55:49,720
(Lanzmann) Then he had
a front-row seat for what happened.
531
00:55:49,846 --> 00:55:54,058
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
532
00:55:54,184 --> 00:55:56,894
- (Man replies)
- Naturally.
533
00:55:57,020 --> 00:56:00,230
(Man continues)
534
00:56:00,357 --> 00:56:05,069
You could go up close
or watch from a distance.
535
00:56:06,029 --> 00:56:09,073
CZESLAW BOROWI
536
00:56:12,952 --> 00:56:15,913
They had land
on the far side of the station.
537
00:56:16,039 --> 00:56:19,416
To work it, he had to cross the track,
538
00:56:19,542 --> 00:56:21,543
so he could see everything.
539
00:56:26,800 --> 00:56:31,595
(Lanzmann) Does he remember
the first convoy of Jews from Warsaw
540
00:56:31,721 --> 00:56:34,598
on July 22, 1942?
541
00:56:34,724 --> 00:56:36,141
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
542
00:56:36,267 --> 00:56:39,603
(Borowi speaks in Polish)
543
00:56:42,899 --> 00:56:45,109
He recalls the first convoy very well...
544
00:56:46,945 --> 00:56:49,696
...and when all those Jews
were brought here.
545
00:56:54,411 --> 00:56:57,871
People wondered,
"What's to be done with them?"
546
00:57:01,042 --> 00:57:05,129
Clearly, they'd be killed,
but no one yet knew how.
547
00:57:17,183 --> 00:57:21,645
When people began
to understand what was happening,
548
00:57:22,188 --> 00:57:23,647
they were appalled,
549
00:57:23,773 --> 00:57:28,902
and they commented privately
that since the world began,
550
00:57:29,028 --> 00:57:32,656
no one had ever murdered
so many people that way.
551
00:57:38,163 --> 00:57:41,331
(Lanzmann) While all this was
happening before their eyes,
552
00:57:41,458 --> 00:57:43,167
normal life went on?
553
00:57:43,293 --> 00:57:48,589
- They worked their fields?
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
554
00:57:48,715 --> 00:57:52,259
(Borowi replies)
555
00:58:08,443 --> 00:58:10,194
Certainly they worked,
556
00:58:10,320 --> 00:58:15,073
but not as willingly as usual.
557
00:58:15,742 --> 00:58:17,618
They had to work,
558
00:58:17,744 --> 00:58:20,287
but when they saw all this,
they thought,
559
00:58:20,413 --> 00:58:23,874
"What if our house is surrounded
and we're arrested?"
560
00:58:26,628 --> 00:58:28,962
(Lanzmann) Were they afraid
for the Jews, too?
561
00:59:00,995 --> 00:59:02,871
Well, he says it's this way...
562
00:59:02,997 --> 00:59:07,584
If I cut my finger, it doesn't hurt him.
563
00:59:07,710 --> 00:59:10,003
They saw what happened to the Jews,
564
00:59:10,129 --> 00:59:14,758
the convoy came in
and then went to the camp,
565
00:59:15,510 --> 00:59:17,678
and the people vanished.
566
00:59:17,804 --> 00:59:19,680
(Speak Polish)
567
00:59:19,806 --> 00:59:24,101
(Interpreter ♪ 1) He had a field
less than 100 yards from the camp.
568
00:59:26,729 --> 00:59:29,481
He also worked
during the German occupation.
569
00:59:29,607 --> 00:59:32,025
(Lanzmann) He worked his field?
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Yes.
570
00:59:32,694 --> 00:59:37,197
He saw how they were asphyxiated,
571
00:59:37,323 --> 00:59:40,617
he heard them scream, he saw that.
572
00:59:40,743 --> 00:59:45,289
There's a small hill.
He could see quite a bit.
573
00:59:47,125 --> 00:59:49,585
- (Laughter)
- (Lanzmann) What did he say?
574
00:59:49,711 --> 00:59:51,461
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
575
00:59:53,339 --> 00:59:56,049
They couldn't stop and watch.
576
00:59:56,551 --> 00:59:59,511
It was forbidden.
The Ukrainians shot at them.
577
00:59:59,637 --> 01:00:03,765
(Lanzmann) But they could work
a field 100 yards from the camp?
578
01:00:05,643 --> 01:00:08,770
They could.
579
01:00:08,896 --> 01:00:12,065
So occasionally
he could steal a glance,
580
01:00:12,191 --> 01:00:14,401
if the Ukrainians weren't looking.
581
01:00:14,527 --> 01:00:16,987
(Lanzmann)
He worked with his eyes lowered?
582
01:00:20,199 --> 01:00:21,408
Yes.
583
01:00:21,909 --> 01:00:23,910
(Speaks Polish)
584
01:00:26,372 --> 01:00:30,208
He worked by the barbed wire
and heard awful screams.
585
01:00:30,335 --> 01:00:33,253
(Lanzmann) His field was there?
586
01:00:34,213 --> 01:00:36,089
(Interpreter) Yes, right up close.
587
01:00:37,258 --> 01:00:39,676
It wasn't forbidden to work there.
588
01:00:40,637 --> 01:00:44,181
(Lanzmann) So he worked,
he farmed there?
589
01:00:47,727 --> 01:00:48,977
(Interpreter) Yes.
590
01:00:49,937 --> 01:00:53,899
Where the camp is now
was partly his field.
591
01:00:56,944 --> 01:00:59,446
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
592
01:01:06,287 --> 01:01:09,164
It was off limits,
but they heard everything.
593
01:01:09,290 --> 01:01:12,751
(Lanzmann) It didn't bother him
to work so near those screams?
594
01:01:12,877 --> 01:01:17,047
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
595
01:01:21,678 --> 01:01:25,222
At first it was unbearable.
Then you got used to it.
596
01:01:25,682 --> 01:01:29,184
(Lanzmann) You get used to anything?
597
01:01:30,853 --> 01:01:31,937
Yes.
598
01:01:35,358 --> 01:01:39,027
Now he thinks... it's impossible.
599
01:01:39,153 --> 01:01:40,821
Yet it was true.
600
01:02:06,222 --> 01:02:09,057
(Speaking in Polish)
601
01:02:09,726 --> 01:02:12,561
So he saw the convoys arriving.
602
01:02:13,062 --> 01:02:17,441
There were 60 to 80 cars
in each convoy,
603
01:02:17,567 --> 01:02:20,360
and there were two locomotives
604
01:02:20,486 --> 01:02:24,281
that took the convoys into the camp,
605
01:02:24,407 --> 01:02:28,368
taking 20 cars at a time.
606
01:02:29,245 --> 01:02:31,705
And the cars came back empty?
607
01:02:31,831 --> 01:02:33,999
(Speaking Polish)
608
01:02:35,168 --> 01:02:37,043
- Yes.
- Does he remember...?
609
01:02:41,799 --> 01:02:43,508
Here's how it happened.
610
01:02:43,634 --> 01:02:46,136
The locomotive picked up 20 cars
611
01:02:47,847 --> 01:02:50,015
and took them to the camp.
612
01:02:50,141 --> 01:02:53,643
That took maybe an hour,
613
01:02:59,567 --> 01:03:01,610
and the empty cars came back here.
614
01:03:01,736 --> 01:03:03,820
Then the next 20 cars were taken,
615
01:03:03,946 --> 01:03:08,492
and meanwhile, the people
in the first 20 were already dead.
616
01:03:20,379 --> 01:03:22,047
(Man speaks Polish)
617
01:03:22,173 --> 01:03:24,090
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
They waited, they wept...
618
01:03:24,217 --> 01:03:28,220
...they asked for water, they died.
619
01:03:30,264 --> 01:03:36,353
Sometimes they were naked
in the cars, up to 170 people.
620
01:03:37,939 --> 01:03:41,274
(Interpreter) This is where
they gave the Jews water, he says.
621
01:03:41,400 --> 01:03:42,859
(Lanzmann) Where was that?
622
01:03:42,985 --> 01:03:44,778
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
623
01:03:44,904 --> 01:03:49,616
Here. When the convoys arrived,
they gave water to the Jews.
624
01:03:49,742 --> 01:03:52,327
(Lanzmann) Who gave the Jews water?
625
01:03:53,746 --> 01:03:55,789
We did, the Poles.
626
01:03:56,833 --> 01:04:00,961
There was a tiny well,
we took a bottle and...
627
01:04:01,087 --> 01:04:05,131
(Lanzmann) Wasn't it dangerous
to give them water?
628
01:04:05,758 --> 01:04:07,384
Very dangerous.
629
01:04:12,014 --> 01:04:17,143
You could be killed
for giving a glass of water.
630
01:04:17,270 --> 01:04:20,230
But we gave them water anyway.
631
01:04:24,694 --> 01:04:27,279
(Lanzmann)
Is it very cold here in winter?
632
01:04:27,405 --> 01:04:30,198
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and man
speak Polish)
633
01:04:30,324 --> 01:04:34,286
It depends.
634
01:04:34,412 --> 01:04:36,913
It can get to minus 15, minus 20.
635
01:04:40,167 --> 01:04:43,545
(Lanzmann) Which was harder
on the Jews, summer or winter?
636
01:04:43,671 --> 01:04:49,009
- Waiting here, I mean.
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
637
01:04:49,677 --> 01:04:51,595
(Man replies)
638
01:04:55,016 --> 01:04:57,225
He thinks winter,
because they were very cold.
639
01:04:57,351 --> 01:04:59,185
(Man continues)
640
01:05:02,607 --> 01:05:07,319
They were so packed in the cars,
maybe they weren't cold.
641
01:05:09,780 --> 01:05:13,033
In summer they stifled,
it was very hot.
642
01:05:14,035 --> 01:05:17,037
The Jews were very thirsty.
They tried to get out.
643
01:05:21,584 --> 01:05:24,461
(Lanzmann) Were there corpses
in the cars on arrival?
644
01:05:24,587 --> 01:05:26,588
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
645
01:05:31,844 --> 01:05:33,345
Obviously.
646
01:05:34,096 --> 01:05:35,597
Yes.
647
01:05:46,442 --> 01:05:48,485
They were so packed in
648
01:05:48,611 --> 01:05:53,114
that even those still alive
sat on corpses for lack of space.
649
01:05:56,118 --> 01:05:59,287
(Lanzmann) Didn't people here
who went by the trains
650
01:05:59,413 --> 01:06:02,415
look through the cracks in the cars?
651
01:06:02,541 --> 01:06:04,542
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
652
01:06:11,509 --> 01:06:15,011
Yes, they could look in sometimes
as they went by.
653
01:06:18,808 --> 01:06:22,394
When they were allowed,
they gave them water, too.
654
01:06:22,520 --> 01:06:25,355
(Lanzmann) Yes.
How did the Jews try to get out?
655
01:06:25,481 --> 01:06:27,899
The doors weren't opened.
How'd they get out?
656
01:06:28,025 --> 01:06:30,026
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
657
01:06:32,238 --> 01:06:34,739
Through the windows.
658
01:06:36,993 --> 01:06:39,661
They removed the barbed wire. Yes.
659
01:06:40,705 --> 01:06:44,124
And came out of the windows.
They jumped, of course.
660
01:06:49,755 --> 01:06:54,467
Sometimes they just deliberately
sat down on the ground,
661
01:06:54,969 --> 01:06:59,597
and the guards came
and shot them in the head.
662
01:07:00,766 --> 01:07:02,475
(Speaking Polish)
663
01:07:10,276 --> 01:07:14,279
They jumped from the cars.
What a sight!
664
01:07:15,322 --> 01:07:17,115
Jumping from the windows.
665
01:07:19,118 --> 01:07:22,037
There was a mother and child.
666
01:07:22,163 --> 01:07:24,330
- (Lanzmann) Jewish?
- Yes.
667
01:07:24,457 --> 01:07:26,207
She tried to run away,
668
01:07:26,667 --> 01:07:30,211
and they shot her in the heart.
669
01:07:33,799 --> 01:07:36,509
- Shot who? The mother?
- Yes, the mother.
670
01:07:38,971 --> 01:07:43,516
This gentleman has lived here
a long time, he can't forget.
671
01:07:54,695 --> 01:07:57,864
He says that now
he can't understand
672
01:07:57,990 --> 01:08:02,535
how a man can do that
to another human being.
673
01:08:03,370 --> 01:08:05,580
It's inconceivable,
beyond understanding.
674
01:08:08,084 --> 01:08:11,419
Once when the Jews asked for water,
a Ukrainian went by
675
01:08:12,421 --> 01:08:14,422
and forbade giving any.
676
01:08:17,343 --> 01:08:20,637
The Jewish woman
that had asked for water
677
01:08:20,763 --> 01:08:25,517
threw her pot at his head.
678
01:08:35,069 --> 01:08:39,197
The Ukrainian moved back,
679
01:08:39,990 --> 01:08:44,577
maybe ten yards,
and opened fire on the car.
680
01:08:45,788 --> 01:08:48,665
Blood and brains
were all over the place.
681
01:08:48,791 --> 01:08:51,960
(Borowi speaks Polish)
682
01:08:52,086 --> 01:08:54,546
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
Lots of people opened the doors...
683
01:08:57,508 --> 01:08:59,717
...or escaped through the windows.
684
01:09:02,972 --> 01:09:08,601
Sometimes the Ukrainians
fired through the car walls.
685
01:09:37,256 --> 01:09:39,757
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
686
01:09:41,427 --> 01:09:42,886
It happened chiefly at night.
687
01:09:43,012 --> 01:09:47,223
When the Jews talked to each other,
as he showed us,
688
01:09:47,349 --> 01:09:51,644
the Ukrainians wanted things quiet,
689
01:09:51,770 --> 01:09:55,023
and they asked...
yes, asked them to shut up.
690
01:09:55,149 --> 01:09:59,652
So the Jews shut up
and the guard moved off.
691
01:09:59,778 --> 01:10:03,489
Then the Jews started talking again
in their language,
692
01:10:03,616 --> 01:10:05,450
as he says, Ra-Ra-Ra, and so on.
693
01:10:05,576 --> 01:10:09,579
What's he mean, la-la-la?
What's he trying to imitate?
694
01:10:09,705 --> 01:10:12,498
- Their language.
- No, ask him.
695
01:10:16,337 --> 01:10:18,713
Was the Jews' noise
something special?
696
01:10:19,840 --> 01:10:21,758
They spoke Jew.
697
01:10:21,884 --> 01:10:23,134
Yes.
698
01:10:23,260 --> 01:10:26,721
Does Mr. Borowi understand "Jew"?
699
01:10:26,847 --> 01:10:28,348
No.
700
01:10:34,647 --> 01:10:36,481
(Bomba) We were in that wagon.
701
01:10:36,607 --> 01:10:42,320
The wagon was rolling,
rolling in the direction east.
702
01:10:44,323 --> 01:10:47,116
A funny thing happened right there.
703
01:10:47,243 --> 01:10:50,495
Maybe it's not nice to say,
but I will say it.
704
01:10:50,621 --> 01:10:55,166
Most of the people, not only most,
but 99% of the Polish people,
705
01:10:55,292 --> 01:10:57,543
when they saw the train going through...
706
01:10:57,670 --> 01:11:01,214
We looked really like animals
in that wagon,
707
01:11:01,715 --> 01:11:04,384
just our eyes looked outside.
708
01:11:04,510 --> 01:11:07,887
And they were laughing,
and they were all...
709
01:11:08,013 --> 01:11:11,599
They had a joy, because they took
the Jewish people away.
710
01:11:14,353 --> 01:11:17,605
What was going on in the wagon
between the people,
711
01:11:17,731 --> 01:11:20,233
and the pushing and the screaming...
712
01:11:20,359 --> 01:11:23,111
"Where is my child?"
and, "Where is my this?"
713
01:11:23,237 --> 01:11:24,946
and "A little bit of water!"
714
01:11:25,072 --> 01:11:30,868
And people were not only starving,
but they were choking.
715
01:11:31,745 --> 01:11:33,871
It was hot.
It happened... Just it happened...
716
01:11:33,998 --> 01:11:35,498
The Jewish luck...
717
01:11:35,624 --> 01:11:39,919
in September, at that time,
usually when it is rainy, when it is cool,
718
01:11:40,045 --> 01:11:43,298
that it was hot like hell.
719
01:11:43,799 --> 01:11:45,425
We had nothing inside.
720
01:11:45,551 --> 01:11:50,013
For a child, you know, like my own child
about the age of three weeks,
721
01:11:50,139 --> 01:11:52,056
there was not a drop of water.
722
01:11:52,182 --> 01:11:53,891
There wasn't a drop of water
for the mother,
723
01:11:54,018 --> 01:11:56,894
there wasn't a drop of water
for anybody else.
724
01:12:02,484 --> 01:12:04,319
(Whistle blows)
725
01:12:11,368 --> 01:12:14,996
(Lanzmann in French) Did he hear
screams behind his locomotive?
726
01:12:15,122 --> 01:12:17,040
(Whistle blows)
727
01:12:17,166 --> 01:12:20,126
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
728
01:12:20,252 --> 01:12:22,545
(Man replies)
729
01:12:22,671 --> 01:12:27,216
Obviously, since the locomotive
was next to the camp.
730
01:12:27,343 --> 01:12:30,053
They screamed, asked for water.
731
01:12:37,394 --> 01:12:42,106
The screams from the cars
closest to the locomotive
732
01:12:42,232 --> 01:12:44,859
could be heard very well.
733
01:12:48,447 --> 01:12:50,615
(Lanzmann)
Can one get used to that?
734
01:12:50,741 --> 01:12:54,118
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
735
01:12:54,244 --> 01:12:57,121
(Man replies)
736
01:12:57,247 --> 01:12:58,581
No.
737
01:13:02,461 --> 01:13:05,254
It was extremely distressing to him.
738
01:13:05,381 --> 01:13:09,842
He knew that the people behind him
were human, like him.
739
01:13:09,968 --> 01:13:11,761
(Whistle blows)
740
01:13:17,226 --> 01:13:23,856
The Germans gave him
and the other workers vodka to drink.
741
01:13:23,982 --> 01:13:26,150
Without drinking,
they couldn't have done it.
742
01:13:26,276 --> 01:13:28,111
(Man continues)
743
01:13:33,325 --> 01:13:35,076
There was a bonus...
744
01:13:39,832 --> 01:13:43,543
...that they were paid
not in money, but in liquor.
745
01:13:43,669 --> 01:13:46,671
(Man continues)
746
01:13:46,797 --> 01:13:50,675
Those who worked on other trains
didn't get this bonus.
747
01:13:50,801 --> 01:13:53,052
(Whistle blows)
748
01:13:54,012 --> 01:13:57,390
HENRIK GAWKOWSKI
749
01:14:04,231 --> 01:14:07,442
(Interpreter)
He drank every drop he got,
750
01:14:07,568 --> 01:14:12,447
because without liquor
he couldn't stand the stench
751
01:14:12,573 --> 01:14:14,490
when he got here.
752
01:14:14,616 --> 01:14:19,120
They even bought more liquor
on their own
753
01:14:19,246 --> 01:14:21,247
to get drunk on.
754
01:14:32,843 --> 01:14:34,719
(Bomba)
We arrived in the morning.
755
01:14:34,845 --> 01:14:38,848
We arrived, I would say,
about 6:00, maybe 6:30.
756
01:14:39,641 --> 01:14:42,643
On the other side of the tracks,
757
01:14:43,145 --> 01:14:47,398
I saw more trains standing there,
758
01:14:49,359 --> 01:14:52,028
and I was watching through...
759
01:14:52,154 --> 01:14:58,826
I saw about 18, 20, maybe more,
wagons going away.
760
01:15:00,329 --> 01:15:03,414
And after about an hour or so,
761
01:15:03,540 --> 01:15:08,294
I saw the wagons coming back,
but without the people.
762
01:15:19,264 --> 01:15:25,895
My train stayed there
until about 12:00.
763
01:15:29,733 --> 01:15:34,320
(Lanzmann) From the station
to the unloading ramp in the camp,
764
01:15:34,446 --> 01:15:36,113
how many miles?
765
01:15:36,240 --> 01:15:38,241
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
766
01:15:49,336 --> 01:15:50,586
Four.
767
01:16:00,180 --> 01:16:03,182
(Bomba) While we stayed there,
at that station over there,
768
01:16:03,308 --> 01:16:07,311
waiting to go in Treblinka camp,
769
01:16:08,188 --> 01:16:11,649
some of those German SS,
they came around,
770
01:16:11,775 --> 01:16:14,694
and they were asking us
what we have.
771
01:16:15,737 --> 01:16:21,492
So we said, "We got...
Some of the people, they have... gold.
772
01:16:21,618 --> 01:16:23,744
"They have diamonds.
773
01:16:23,870 --> 01:16:26,163
"But we want water."
774
01:16:28,041 --> 01:16:29,542
So they said, "Good.
775
01:16:29,668 --> 01:16:32,211
"Give us the diamonds,
we bring you water."
776
01:16:33,714 --> 01:16:37,300
Yeah, they took them away and
they didn't bring any water at all.
777
01:16:43,348 --> 01:16:45,391
(Lanzmann)
How long did last the trip?
778
01:16:45,517 --> 01:16:51,230
The trip lasted
from Czestochowa to Treblinka
779
01:16:51,940 --> 01:16:54,233
about 24 hours,
780
01:16:54,735 --> 01:16:57,862
with interruption waiting in Warsaw
781
01:16:57,988 --> 01:17:01,949
and also waiting at Treblinka
to go into Treblinka.
782
01:17:02,075 --> 01:17:04,285
ABRAHAM BOMBA
783
01:17:04,411 --> 01:17:07,788
At the last train,
we went in over there.
784
01:17:07,914 --> 01:17:09,999
But, like I mentioned before,
785
01:17:10,125 --> 01:17:12,418
I saw many trains coming back,
786
01:17:12,544 --> 01:17:15,338
but the trains were without the people.
787
01:17:15,464 --> 01:17:18,841
So I said to myself,
"What happened to the people?
788
01:17:18,967 --> 01:17:22,219
We don't see any people,
just trains coming back."
789
01:17:22,346 --> 01:17:24,347
(Train clacking)
790
01:17:28,018 --> 01:17:30,478
(Glazar in German)
We travelled for two days.
791
01:17:31,897 --> 01:17:34,190
On the morning of the second day,
792
01:17:34,316 --> 01:17:38,861
we saw that
we had left Czechoslovakia
793
01:17:38,987 --> 01:17:43,658
and were heading east.
794
01:17:44,242 --> 01:17:46,077
(Train whistle blows)
795
01:17:48,455 --> 01:17:52,375
It wasn't the SS guarding us,
796
01:17:52,501 --> 01:17:56,504
but the Schutzpolizei,
797
01:17:56,630 --> 01:17:59,340
the police, in green uniforms.
798
01:18:02,511 --> 01:18:05,721
We were in ordinary passenger cars.
799
01:18:05,847 --> 01:18:07,848
All the seats were filled.
800
01:18:09,059 --> 01:18:11,352
You couldn't choose.
801
01:18:11,478 --> 01:18:14,230
They were all numbered and assigned.
802
01:18:16,274 --> 01:18:20,569
In my compartment
there was an elderly couple.
803
01:18:20,696 --> 01:18:22,446
I still remember...
804
01:18:22,572 --> 01:18:28,452
The good man was always hungry
and his wife scolded him,
805
01:18:28,578 --> 01:18:35,209
saying they'd have no food left
for the future.
806
01:18:36,420 --> 01:18:39,004
RICHARD GLAZAR
807
01:18:39,131 --> 01:18:41,006
(Whistle blows)
808
01:18:41,842 --> 01:18:45,136
Then, on the second day,
809
01:18:45,262 --> 01:18:48,639
I saw a sign for Malkinia.
810
01:18:48,765 --> 01:18:50,933
We went on a little farther.
811
01:18:51,435 --> 01:18:56,313
Then, very slowly,
812
01:18:56,440 --> 01:19:00,317
the train turned off the main track
813
01:19:00,444 --> 01:19:04,739
and rolled at a walking pace
through a wood.
814
01:19:04,865 --> 01:19:07,742
While he looked out,
815
01:19:08,618 --> 01:19:11,287
we'd been able to open a window.
816
01:19:11,413 --> 01:19:15,374
The old man
in our compartment saw a boy...
817
01:19:15,500 --> 01:19:19,170
Cows were grazing...
818
01:19:19,296 --> 01:19:23,090
And he asked the boy in signs,
819
01:19:23,216 --> 01:19:25,593
"Where are we?"
820
01:19:26,511 --> 01:19:29,513
And the kid made a funny gesture.
This!
821
01:19:30,432 --> 01:19:32,141
Across the throat.
822
01:19:34,728 --> 01:19:36,896
- (Lanzmann) A Pole?
- A Pole.
823
01:19:37,022 --> 01:19:39,315
Where was this? At the station?
824
01:19:39,441 --> 01:19:45,279
It was where the train had stopped.
825
01:19:45,405 --> 01:19:47,239
On one side was the wood,
826
01:19:47,365 --> 01:19:50,367
and on the other were fields.
827
01:19:50,494 --> 01:19:52,745
And there was a farmer in a field?
828
01:19:52,871 --> 01:19:55,915
We saw cows
829
01:19:56,041 --> 01:19:59,752
which were watched over
by a young man,
830
01:19:59,878 --> 01:20:03,881
a farmhand.
831
01:20:05,217 --> 01:20:07,259
And one of you questioned him?
832
01:20:07,385 --> 01:20:14,141
Not in words, but in signs,
we asked, "What's going on here?"
833
01:20:14,267 --> 01:20:17,269
And he made that gesture. Like this.
834
01:20:19,272 --> 01:20:26,028
We didn't really pay
much attention to him.
835
01:20:26,154 --> 01:20:28,656
We couldn't figure out what he meant.
836
01:20:28,782 --> 01:20:30,449
(Dogs barking)
837
01:20:40,961 --> 01:20:42,962
(Man speaks Polish)
838
01:20:47,843 --> 01:20:50,928
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French)
Once there were foreign Jews...
839
01:20:51,471 --> 01:20:55,224
- They were this fat.
- (Lanzmann) This fat?
840
01:20:55,350 --> 01:20:58,477
Riding in passenger cars.
841
01:20:58,603 --> 01:21:03,983
There was a dining car,
they could drink and walk around too.
842
01:21:04,109 --> 01:21:08,153
They said they were going to a factory.
843
01:21:08,280 --> 01:21:12,783
On arrival, they saw
what kind of a factory it was.
844
01:21:13,326 --> 01:21:15,327
(Men speaking Polish)
845
01:21:17,038 --> 01:21:20,207
(Interpreter) We'd gesture...
(Lanzmann) Gesture how?
846
01:21:22,669 --> 01:21:26,213
(Interpreter) That they'd be killed.
(Lanzmann) They made that sign?
847
01:21:26,339 --> 01:21:28,382
He says the Jews didn't believe it.
848
01:21:28,508 --> 01:21:30,759
(Lanzmann)
But what does that gesture mean?
849
01:21:33,471 --> 01:21:35,890
That death awaited them.
850
01:21:48,111 --> 01:21:51,238
The people who had a chance
to get near the Jews
851
01:21:51,364 --> 01:21:53,616
did that to warn them...
852
01:21:53,742 --> 01:21:56,452
- (Lanzmann) He did it too?
- That they'd be hanged, killed, slain.
853
01:21:56,578 --> 01:21:57,995
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
854
01:21:58,121 --> 01:21:59,496
Yes.
855
01:22:02,584 --> 01:22:06,545
Even foreign Jews from Belgium,
Czechoslovakia,
856
01:22:06,671 --> 01:22:09,006
from France too, surely.
857
01:22:10,175 --> 01:22:11,842
And from Holland...
858
01:22:14,429 --> 01:22:16,013
These didn't know,
859
01:22:23,605 --> 01:22:27,149
but the Polish Jews knew.
860
01:22:27,275 --> 01:22:33,113
In the small cities in the area,
861
01:22:33,239 --> 01:22:34,406
it was talked about.
862
01:22:34,532 --> 01:22:38,577
So the Polish Jews were forewarned,
but not the others.
863
01:22:38,703 --> 01:22:41,705
Who'd they warn,
Polish Jews or the others?
864
01:22:47,754 --> 01:22:50,547
All the Jews.
865
01:23:14,280 --> 01:23:15,698
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
866
01:23:15,824 --> 01:23:19,326
He says the foreign Jews
arrived here in passenger cars,
867
01:23:19,452 --> 01:23:21,912
they were well dressed,
in white shirts,
868
01:23:22,038 --> 01:23:26,458
there were flowers in the cars,
and they played cards.
869
01:23:27,043 --> 01:23:31,213
(Lanzmann in French)
From what I know, that was very rare,
870
01:23:31,339 --> 01:23:34,758
Jews shipped in passenger cars.
871
01:23:34,884 --> 01:23:38,637
Most arrived in cattle cars.
872
01:23:38,763 --> 01:23:41,432
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
873
01:23:53,945 --> 01:23:55,821
It's not true.
874
01:23:55,947 --> 01:23:57,698
(Lanzmann) It's not true?
875
01:23:57,824 --> 01:23:59,867
(Woman speaks Polish)
876
01:24:01,244 --> 01:24:02,995
(Lanzmann)
What did Mrs. Gawkowska say?
877
01:24:03,121 --> 01:24:07,499
(Interpreter ♪ 1) She said
he may not have seen everything.
878
01:24:07,625 --> 01:24:10,961
(Interpreter ♪ 1) He says he did.
879
01:24:38,156 --> 01:24:41,241
Once, at the Malkinia station,
for example,
880
01:24:41,367 --> 01:24:44,661
a foreign Jew left the train
881
01:24:44,788 --> 01:24:47,164
to buy something at the bar.
882
01:24:47,665 --> 01:24:52,836
The train pulled out
and he ran after it.
883
01:24:52,962 --> 01:24:55,964
(Lanzmann) To catch up to it?
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Yes.
884
01:24:56,091 --> 01:25:01,261
So he went past these "Pullmans,"
as he calls them,
885
01:25:01,387 --> 01:25:06,475
those Jews who were calm,
unsuspecting,
886
01:25:06,601 --> 01:25:09,061
and he made that gesture to them.
887
01:25:09,187 --> 01:25:11,021
(Speaks Polish)
888
01:25:18,613 --> 01:25:19,780
Yes.
889
01:25:20,490 --> 01:25:22,658
To all the Jews, in principle.
890
01:25:22,784 --> 01:25:25,536
He just went along the platform?
Ask him.
891
01:25:32,710 --> 01:25:37,005
Yes. The road was as it is now.
892
01:25:39,217 --> 01:25:43,720
When the guard wasn't looking,
893
01:25:43,847 --> 01:25:46,306
he made that gesture.
894
01:25:51,312 --> 01:25:54,982
(Lanzmann) Ask Mr. Gawkowski
why he looks so sad.
895
01:25:55,108 --> 01:25:58,110
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
896
01:26:03,867 --> 01:26:06,702
Because I saw men
marching to their death.
897
01:26:09,539 --> 01:26:11,874
(Lanzmann)
Precisely where are we now?
898
01:26:12,000 --> 01:26:14,710
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
899
01:26:21,593 --> 01:26:26,430
It's not far,
a mile and a halffrom here.
900
01:26:26,556 --> 01:26:28,473
- (Lanzmann) What, the camp?
- Yes.
901
01:26:30,685 --> 01:26:32,186
Yes.
902
01:26:34,272 --> 01:26:37,941
(Lanzmann)
What's that dirt road he's indicating?
903
01:26:41,154 --> 01:26:44,698
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
904
01:26:46,951 --> 01:26:50,120
That's where the rail line
into the camp was.
905
01:27:08,348 --> 01:27:12,142
(Lanzmann) Did Mr. Gawkowski,
aside from the trains of deportees
906
01:27:12,268 --> 01:27:17,856
that he drove from Warsaw or
Bialystok to Treblinka station,
907
01:27:17,982 --> 01:27:22,486
did he ever drive the deportee cars
908
01:27:22,612 --> 01:27:25,530
into the camp
from Treblinka station?
909
01:27:26,491 --> 01:27:29,076
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
910
01:27:39,087 --> 01:27:40,295
Yes.
911
01:27:42,382 --> 01:27:46,051
- (Lanzmann) Did he do it often?
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
912
01:27:48,096 --> 01:27:50,764
Two or three times a week.
913
01:27:51,516 --> 01:27:54,268
(Lanzmann) Over how long a period?
914
01:27:57,772 --> 01:28:00,148
Around a year and a half.
915
01:28:00,275 --> 01:28:03,360
(Lanzmann) That is,
throughout the camp's existence?
916
01:28:03,486 --> 01:28:05,821
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
917
01:28:05,947 --> 01:28:07,322
Yes.
918
01:28:43,776 --> 01:28:46,737
- (Lanzmann) This is the ramp.
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
919
01:28:46,863 --> 01:28:49,781
Here he is, he goes
to the end with his locomotive,
920
01:28:49,907 --> 01:28:53,160
and he has the 20 cars behind him.
921
01:28:53,870 --> 01:28:59,333
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
922
01:28:59,459 --> 01:29:02,294
No, they're in front of him.
923
01:29:02,420 --> 01:29:05,005
He pushed them?
924
01:29:05,131 --> 01:29:07,924
That's right, he pushed them.
925
01:29:08,051 --> 01:29:09,885
(Interpreter ♪ 1) Yes.
926
01:29:51,844 --> 01:29:53,845
(Piwonski speaks Polish)
927
01:30:05,024 --> 01:30:07,067
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
In February 1942,
928
01:30:07,193 --> 01:30:10,320
I began working here
as an assistant switchman.
929
01:30:11,906 --> 01:30:15,200
(Lanzmann) The station building,
the rails, the platforms
930
01:30:15,326 --> 01:30:18,328
are just as they were in 1942?
931
01:30:18,454 --> 01:30:23,583
- Nothing's changed?
- (Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
932
01:30:23,709 --> 01:30:25,293
Nothing.
933
01:30:25,420 --> 01:30:28,296
Exactly where did the camp begin?
934
01:30:31,384 --> 01:30:33,510
JAN PIWONSKI
935
01:30:34,095 --> 01:30:36,763
I'll show you exactly.
936
01:30:56,200 --> 01:30:57,617
Here,
937
01:31:04,083 --> 01:31:07,878
there was a fence that ran
to those trees you see there.
938
01:31:08,004 --> 01:31:09,337
(Lanzmann) Yes.
939
01:31:15,178 --> 01:31:18,430
And another fence that ran
to those trees over there.
940
01:31:19,348 --> 01:31:23,852
So I'm standing
inside the camp perimeter, right?
941
01:31:27,690 --> 01:31:28,732
That's right.
942
01:31:28,858 --> 01:31:32,569
Where I am now
is 50 feet from the station,
943
01:31:32,695 --> 01:31:34,404
and I'm already outside the camp.
944
01:31:34,530 --> 01:31:39,075
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and Piwonski
speak Polish)
945
01:31:39,202 --> 01:31:40,368
Yes.
946
01:31:43,873 --> 01:31:46,875
So this is the Polish part,
and over there was death?
947
01:31:47,001 --> 01:31:50,086
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
948
01:31:50,213 --> 01:31:51,213
Yes.
949
01:31:53,341 --> 01:31:55,342
(Piwonski continues)
950
01:32:02,016 --> 01:32:06,144
On German orders,
Polish railmen split up the trains.
951
01:32:13,903 --> 01:32:15,820
So the locomotive took 20 cars
952
01:32:15,947 --> 01:32:18,490
and headed toward Chelm.
953
01:32:21,827 --> 01:32:23,495
When it reached a switch...
954
01:32:26,249 --> 01:32:32,712
...it pushed the cars into the camp
on the other track we can see.
955
01:32:33,548 --> 01:32:34,756
The ramp began there.
956
01:32:34,882 --> 01:32:38,218
So here we're outside the camp,
957
01:32:38,344 --> 01:32:42,722
and back here we enter it.
958
01:32:42,848 --> 01:32:47,519
Unlike Treblinka,
the station here is part of the camp.
959
01:32:50,731 --> 01:32:52,190
Yes...
960
01:32:52,984 --> 01:32:57,445
And at this point,
we are inside the camp.
961
01:33:00,366 --> 01:33:03,201
(Interpreter ♪ 1)
This track was inside the camp.
962
01:33:04,036 --> 01:33:07,872
And it's exactly as it was? Hmm?
963
01:33:11,460 --> 01:33:13,253
Yes, the same track.
964
01:33:13,713 --> 01:33:15,880
It hasn't changed since then.
965
01:33:16,007 --> 01:33:20,093
Where we are now is
what was called the ramp, right?
966
01:33:28,894 --> 01:33:33,648
Yes, those to be exterminated
were unloaded here.
967
01:33:33,774 --> 01:33:35,191
So where we're standing
968
01:33:35,318 --> 01:33:40,196
is where 250,000 Jews were
unloaded before being gassed?
969
01:33:44,702 --> 01:33:45,702
Yes.
970
01:33:51,334 --> 01:33:56,296
(Lanzmann) Did foreign Jews
arrive here in passenger cars, too?
971
01:33:56,422 --> 01:33:58,423
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
972
01:34:03,888 --> 01:34:06,931
Not always.
973
01:34:07,058 --> 01:34:11,394
(Piwonski continues)
974
01:34:11,520 --> 01:34:13,480
Often the richest Jews...
975
01:34:15,191 --> 01:34:16,941
...from Belgium, Holland, France...
976
01:34:19,153 --> 01:34:20,654
...arrived in passenger cars...
977
01:34:21,906 --> 01:34:24,574
...sometimes even in 1st class.
978
01:34:28,496 --> 01:34:31,581
They were usually better treated
by the guards.
979
01:34:53,979 --> 01:34:57,440
Especially the convoys
of Western European Jews
980
01:34:57,566 --> 01:35:00,110
waiting their turn here,
981
01:35:02,947 --> 01:35:07,117
Polish railmen saw the women
putting on make-up, combing their hair,
982
01:35:07,243 --> 01:35:10,245
wholly unaware of what
awaited them minutes later.
983
01:35:10,371 --> 01:35:11,496
Yes.
984
01:35:11,622 --> 01:35:13,498
They dolled up.
985
01:35:24,510 --> 01:35:26,803
And the Poles couldn't
tell them anything,
986
01:35:26,929 --> 01:35:32,225
the guards forbade contact
with the future victims.
987
01:35:40,151 --> 01:35:42,694
(Lanzmann) I suppose
there were fine days like today.
988
01:35:43,946 --> 01:35:45,947
(Interpreter ♪ 1 and Piwonski in Polish)
989
01:35:49,994 --> 01:35:53,037
Unfortunately, some were even finer.
990
01:36:00,254 --> 01:36:03,256
RUDOLF VRBA - NEW YORK, USA
SURVIVOR OF AUSCHWITZ
991
01:36:03,382 --> 01:36:05,884
(Vrba) There was a place
called the ramp,
992
01:36:06,010 --> 01:36:10,054
where the trains with the Jews
were coming in, in Auschwitz.
993
01:36:11,766 --> 01:36:14,225
They were coming in day or night,
994
01:36:14,351 --> 01:36:18,104
and sometimes one per day,
and sometimes five per day,
995
01:36:18,230 --> 01:36:20,690
from all sorts of places in the world.
996
01:36:21,984 --> 01:36:25,570
I worked there from August 18, 1942
997
01:36:25,696 --> 01:36:29,073
until June 7, 1943.
998
01:36:31,535 --> 01:36:34,370
I saw those transports rolling
one after the other,
999
01:36:34,497 --> 01:36:38,625
and I am sure that I have seen at least
two hundred of them, in this position.
1000
01:36:40,044 --> 01:36:43,588
I have seen it so many times
that it became a routine.
1001
01:36:46,091 --> 01:36:49,010
Constantly, people from the heart
of Europe were disappearing,
1002
01:36:49,136 --> 01:36:51,429
and they were arriving
to the same place
1003
01:36:51,555 --> 01:36:55,308
with the same ignorance of the fate
of the previous transports.
1004
01:36:56,310 --> 01:36:58,978
And that people in this mass...
1005
01:36:59,104 --> 01:37:02,607
And I knew, of course, that within
a couple of hours after they arrived there,
1006
01:37:02,733 --> 01:37:06,402
90% of them will be gassed,
or something like that. I knew that.
1007
01:37:06,529 --> 01:37:10,532
And somehow, in my thinking,
it... I could...
1008
01:37:10,658 --> 01:37:15,119
it was difficult for me to comprehend
that people can disappear in this way,
1009
01:37:15,788 --> 01:37:17,205
and nothing is going to happen,
1010
01:37:17,331 --> 01:37:19,958
and then there comes the next transport,
1011
01:37:20,084 --> 01:37:23,878
and they don't know anything about
what happened to the previous transport,
1012
01:37:24,004 --> 01:37:27,841
and this is going on
for months and months, on and on.
1013
01:37:29,885 --> 01:37:32,971
AUSCHWITZ - BIRKENAU
1014
01:37:34,390 --> 01:37:36,391
So what happened was the following:
1015
01:37:36,892 --> 01:37:41,062
say, a transport of Jews
was announced to come at 2:00.
1016
01:37:41,605 --> 01:37:45,233
So when the transport arrived
to close stations from Auschwitz,
1017
01:37:45,359 --> 01:37:48,069
the announcement came to the SS.
1018
01:37:48,904 --> 01:37:51,406
Now, one SS man came
and woke us up.
1019
01:37:51,532 --> 01:37:55,326
We had to get up
and move to the ramp.
1020
01:37:55,452 --> 01:37:58,371
We immediately got an escort
in the night,
1021
01:37:58,497 --> 01:38:00,582
and we were escorted to the ramp.
1022
01:38:00,708 --> 01:38:03,126
Say, we were about 200 men.
1023
01:38:04,044 --> 01:38:06,421
And lights went on.
1024
01:38:08,382 --> 01:38:10,049
There was a ramp.
1025
01:38:10,175 --> 01:38:12,969
Around the ramp were lights,
1026
01:38:13,095 --> 01:38:17,557
and under those lights
were the cordon of the SS.
1027
01:38:17,683 --> 01:38:21,853
There was one every 10 yards,
with a gun in the hand.
1028
01:38:23,147 --> 01:38:26,232
So, we were in the middle,
the prisoners,
1029
01:38:26,775 --> 01:38:28,401
and we were waiting,
1030
01:38:28,527 --> 01:38:31,529
waiting for the train,
waiting for the next order.
1031
01:38:33,073 --> 01:38:36,242
Now, when all this was done,
everybody was there,
1032
01:38:36,785 --> 01:38:38,912
the transport was rolled in.
1033
01:38:40,164 --> 01:38:42,916
This means in a very slow fashion.
1034
01:38:43,542 --> 01:38:46,586
The locomotive,
which was always at the front,
1035
01:38:47,129 --> 01:38:49,005
was coming to the ramp,
1036
01:38:49,131 --> 01:38:51,424
and that was the end of the railway line.
1037
01:38:51,550 --> 01:38:55,470
That was the end of the line
for everybody who was on the train.
1038
01:39:00,351 --> 01:39:03,353
And, now, the train stopped,
and...
1039
01:39:04,647 --> 01:39:07,690
the gangster elite
marched on the ramp.
1040
01:39:08,776 --> 01:39:11,945
And in front of every second
or every third wagon,
1041
01:39:12,071 --> 01:39:14,530
and sometimes in front of every wagon,
1042
01:39:14,657 --> 01:39:17,075
one of those Unterscharführers...
1043
01:39:19,912 --> 01:39:21,913
...was standing with a key
1044
01:39:22,373 --> 01:39:24,624
and opened the locks,
1045
01:39:24,750 --> 01:39:28,127
because the wagons were locked.
1046
01:39:30,047 --> 01:39:33,257
Now, inside,
there were people, of course,
1047
01:39:33,384 --> 01:39:35,718
and you could see the people
looking through the windows,
1048
01:39:35,844 --> 01:39:37,303
because they didn't know what's
happening.
1049
01:39:37,429 --> 01:39:38,972
They had many stops on their journey.
1050
01:39:39,098 --> 01:39:40,698
Some of them were 10 days
on the journey.
1051
01:39:40,766 --> 01:39:43,059
Some were two days on the journey.
1052
01:39:44,269 --> 01:39:46,813
And they didn't know
what this particular stop means.
1053
01:39:46,939 --> 01:39:48,982
Now, the door was opened.
1054
01:39:49,858 --> 01:39:52,819
And the first order they were given was,
1055
01:39:52,945 --> 01:39:56,447
"Alle heraus!"
"Everybody out!"
1056
01:39:57,616 --> 01:39:59,200
In order to make it quite clear,
1057
01:39:59,326 --> 01:40:03,371
they usually started
with those walking sticks
1058
01:40:03,497 --> 01:40:06,874
to hit the first, the second,
the third, who were...
1059
01:40:07,001 --> 01:40:08,960
They were... They were...
1060
01:40:09,086 --> 01:40:11,170
They were like sardines in those cars.
1061
01:40:13,924 --> 01:40:17,260
If they expected on that day
four, five, six transports,
1062
01:40:17,386 --> 01:40:21,848
the pressure of getting out
from the wagons was high.
1063
01:40:28,897 --> 01:40:32,942
Then they used sticks, clubs,
cursing, et cetera, et cetera.
1064
01:40:36,071 --> 01:40:38,239
Sometimes, the SS,
if it was good weather,
1065
01:40:38,365 --> 01:40:39,907
they used to deal with it differently.
1066
01:40:40,034 --> 01:40:44,370
I mean, I was not surprised
if they were in a different mood and...
1067
01:40:44,496 --> 01:40:47,373
and exhibited a lot of humour,
1068
01:40:47,499 --> 01:40:49,375
like saying, "Good morning, Madam,"
1069
01:40:49,501 --> 01:40:51,711
and, "Will you please walk out?"
1070
01:40:51,837 --> 01:40:54,797
- (Lanzmann) It happened?
- Oh, yes. Oh, yes.
1071
01:40:54,923 --> 01:40:57,508
And, "How nice that you arrived.
1072
01:40:57,634 --> 01:40:59,886
"We are so sorry that
it wasn't too convenient,
1073
01:41:00,012 --> 01:41:02,680
"but now things will become different."
1074
01:41:06,643 --> 01:41:09,479
(Bomba)
When we came into Treblinka,
1075
01:41:09,605 --> 01:41:11,981
we didn't know who the people were.
1076
01:41:12,441 --> 01:41:15,943
Some of them, they had armbands,
some of them red.
1077
01:41:16,070 --> 01:41:19,781
Some of them, they had blue,
Jewish kommando.
1078
01:41:21,450 --> 01:41:23,868
Falling out from the train
1079
01:41:24,411 --> 01:41:27,163
and pushing out each other
1080
01:41:27,289 --> 01:41:30,333
and, over there, losing each other,
1081
01:41:30,459 --> 01:41:34,378
and the... and the...
and the crying and the hollering.
1082
01:41:34,505 --> 01:41:37,173
And, coming out,
1083
01:41:38,842 --> 01:41:42,637
we started on one way
to the right, one to the left,
1084
01:41:42,763 --> 01:41:45,681
the women to the left
and the men on the right.
1085
01:41:46,975 --> 01:41:48,726
And...
1086
01:41:49,686 --> 01:41:53,606
we had no time
to even look at each other,
1087
01:41:54,191 --> 01:41:57,777
because they start hitting over the head
1088
01:41:58,362 --> 01:42:00,780
with all kinds of things.
1089
01:42:02,241 --> 01:42:03,658
And...
1090
01:42:05,202 --> 01:42:07,203
it is very, very...
1091
01:42:07,329 --> 01:42:09,205
Painful, it was.
1092
01:42:11,250 --> 01:42:14,836
You didn't know what had happened.
1093
01:42:14,962 --> 01:42:17,463
You had no time to think.
1094
01:42:17,589 --> 01:42:20,424
All you heard is crying.
1095
01:42:20,884 --> 01:42:25,596
And all you heard, all the time,
was the hollering of the people.
1096
01:42:26,598 --> 01:42:28,766
(In German)
And suddenly it started,
1097
01:42:28,892 --> 01:42:31,561
the yelling and screaming.
1098
01:42:31,687 --> 01:42:33,646
"All out, everybody out!"
1099
01:42:34,106 --> 01:42:38,234
All those shouts,
the uproar, the tumult!
1100
01:42:38,777 --> 01:42:41,070
"Out! Get out!
1101
01:42:43,782 --> 01:42:45,992
"Leave the baggage!"
1102
01:42:46,535 --> 01:42:50,288
We got out, stepping on each other.
1103
01:42:55,085 --> 01:43:00,965
We saw men wearing blue armbands.
1104
01:43:01,091 --> 01:43:05,720
Some carried whips.
1105
01:43:07,890 --> 01:43:10,558
We saw some SS men.
1106
01:43:10,684 --> 01:43:13,769
Green uniforms,
1107
01:43:13,896 --> 01:43:18,983
black uniforms...
1108
01:43:21,695 --> 01:43:23,696
We were a mass...
1109
01:43:25,949 --> 01:43:29,410
And the mass swept us along.
1110
01:43:29,536 --> 01:43:34,790
It was irresistible.
It had to move to another place.
1111
01:43:47,095 --> 01:43:49,597
I saw the others undressing.
1112
01:43:51,099 --> 01:43:55,645
And I heard, "Get undressed!
You're to be disinfected!"
1113
01:43:58,190 --> 01:44:01,734
As I waited, already naked,
1114
01:44:01,860 --> 01:44:08,783
I noticed the SS men
separating out some people.
1115
01:44:08,909 --> 01:44:11,244
These were told to get dressed.
1116
01:44:13,163 --> 01:44:19,293
A passing SS man suddenly
stopped in front of me,
1117
01:44:20,671 --> 01:44:23,965
looked me over, and said,
1118
01:44:24,091 --> 01:44:29,220
"Yes, you too, quick,
join the others, get dressed.
1119
01:44:29,346 --> 01:44:33,891
"You're going to work here,
and if you're good,
1120
01:44:34,017 --> 01:44:36,811
"you can be a kapo, a squad leader."
1121
01:44:42,359 --> 01:44:47,530
(Bomba) At my transport,
I was waiting, already naked.
1122
01:44:49,324 --> 01:44:53,661
A man came over and asked,
"You, you, you, step out."
1123
01:44:53,787 --> 01:44:55,997
We stepped out,
1124
01:44:56,123 --> 01:44:59,959
and they took us
a little bit to the side.
1125
01:45:02,087 --> 01:45:05,464
Some of the people from the transport,
1126
01:45:05,590 --> 01:45:07,800
they had an idea what is going on,
1127
01:45:07,926 --> 01:45:12,930
and they know already
that they will not stay alive.
1128
01:45:13,932 --> 01:45:17,393
Pushing the people,
they didn't want to go,
1129
01:45:17,519 --> 01:45:20,271
or they knew already where they go,
1130
01:45:20,397 --> 01:45:24,483
to that big door.
1131
01:45:26,778 --> 01:45:29,989
The hollering and the crying
and the shouting
1132
01:45:30,115 --> 01:45:32,783
what was going over there on,
1133
01:45:34,036 --> 01:45:36,454
it was impossible.
1134
01:45:37,122 --> 01:45:42,793
The cries and the hollers was
in your ears and in your mind
1135
01:45:42,919 --> 01:45:45,087
for days and days,
1136
01:45:45,547 --> 01:45:47,673
and, at night, the same thing.
1137
01:45:47,799 --> 01:45:52,303
From that hollering, you could not
even sleep a couple nights of that.
1138
01:45:55,182 --> 01:45:59,018
All of a sudden,
at one time, everything stopped,
1139
01:45:59,144 --> 01:46:02,063
like by a command.
1140
01:46:14,785 --> 01:46:17,328
It was all quiet,
1141
01:46:17,454 --> 01:46:21,040
the place where the people went in.
1142
01:46:21,917 --> 01:46:24,752
Just like on a command.
1143
01:46:25,712 --> 01:46:27,713
Like everything was dead.
1144
01:46:39,351 --> 01:46:45,689
Then, they told us
to make clean the whole place.
1145
01:46:45,816 --> 01:46:50,444
It was about 2,000 people
1146
01:46:50,570 --> 01:46:53,489
which they undressed on the outside.
1147
01:46:54,950 --> 01:46:59,703
To take the whole thing away
and to clear up the place,
1148
01:46:59,830 --> 01:47:04,041
and that has to be done in minutes.
1149
01:47:06,461 --> 01:47:10,131
Some of the Germans,
some of the other people that were there,
1150
01:47:10,257 --> 01:47:12,383
the Ukrainians or the other ones,
1151
01:47:12,509 --> 01:47:18,889
they start shouting and hitting us
that we should do it faster,
1152
01:47:19,015 --> 01:47:25,062
to carry the bundles on our backs
faster to the main place,
1153
01:47:26,064 --> 01:47:32,528
where it was big places of clothes,
1154
01:47:32,654 --> 01:47:35,823
of shoes, of other things.
1155
01:47:36,450 --> 01:47:39,160
In no time, this was clean,
1156
01:47:39,286 --> 01:47:41,287
just like it never happened,
1157
01:47:41,413 --> 01:47:44,665
that never was people
on that place again.
1158
01:47:45,417 --> 01:47:50,212
There was no trace, not at all.
1159
01:47:51,006 --> 01:47:55,217
Like a magic thing,
everything disappeared.
1160
01:47:56,970 --> 01:47:59,889
BIRKENAU: THE RAMP
1161
01:48:04,519 --> 01:48:06,770
(Vrba)
Whenever a new transport came,
1162
01:48:06,897 --> 01:48:11,025
the ramp was cleaned
absolutely to zero point.
1163
01:48:14,613 --> 01:48:18,991
No trace from the previous transport
was allowed to remain.
1164
01:48:20,327 --> 01:48:22,369
Not one trace.
1165
01:48:33,256 --> 01:48:37,218
(Glazar in German)
We were taken to the barracks.
1166
01:48:38,637 --> 01:48:42,139
The whole place stank.
1167
01:48:44,392 --> 01:48:48,312
Piled about five feet high
1168
01:48:48,438 --> 01:48:53,359
in a jumbled mass,
1169
01:48:53,485 --> 01:48:58,405
were all the things people
could conceivably have brought.
1170
01:48:59,824 --> 01:49:03,369
Clothes, suitcases,
1171
01:49:03,495 --> 01:49:08,707
everything stacked in a solid mass.
1172
01:49:09,793 --> 01:49:13,671
On top of it,
jumping around like demons,
1173
01:49:13,797 --> 01:49:19,718
people were making bundles
1174
01:49:19,844 --> 01:49:23,138
and carrying them outside.
1175
01:49:24,057 --> 01:49:28,185
I was turned over to one of these men.
1176
01:49:28,311 --> 01:49:33,023
His armband said, "Squad Leader."
1177
01:49:33,692 --> 01:49:35,234
He shouted,
1178
01:49:35,360 --> 01:49:41,448
and I understood that I was also
to pick up clothing, bundle it,
1179
01:49:43,118 --> 01:49:48,831
and take it somewhere.
1180
01:49:51,251 --> 01:49:54,753
As I worked, I asked him,
1181
01:49:54,879 --> 01:49:59,466
"What's going on?
The undressed ones, where are they?"
1182
01:50:00,552 --> 01:50:05,598
And he replied, "Dead! All dead!"
1183
01:50:07,976 --> 01:50:12,605
But it still hadn't sunk in,
I didn't believe it.
1184
01:50:13,273 --> 01:50:15,065
He'd used the Yiddish word.
1185
01:50:15,191 --> 01:50:20,821
It was the first time
I'd heard Yiddish spoken.
1186
01:50:23,575 --> 01:50:27,828
He didn't say it very loud,
1187
01:50:28,913 --> 01:50:33,834
and I saw he had tears in his eyes.
1188
01:50:34,878 --> 01:50:38,672
Suddenly he started shouting
1189
01:50:38,798 --> 01:50:40,924
and raised his whip.
1190
01:50:41,051 --> 01:50:46,055
Out of the corner of my eyes,
I saw an SS man coming.
1191
01:50:46,181 --> 01:50:50,434
And I understood that
I was to ask no more questions,
1192
01:50:50,560 --> 01:50:56,899
but just to rush outside
with the package.
1193
01:51:00,904 --> 01:51:04,448
(Bomba)
At that time, we start working
1194
01:51:04,574 --> 01:51:08,452
in that place which they call Treblinka.
1195
01:51:10,330 --> 01:51:13,290
And still, I couldn't believe
what had happened
1196
01:51:13,416 --> 01:51:17,294
over there on the other side
of the gate,
1197
01:51:17,962 --> 01:51:21,465
where the people went in, disappeared,
1198
01:51:21,591 --> 01:51:24,218
or everything got quiet.
1199
01:51:27,639 --> 01:51:29,765
But in a minute, we find out,
1200
01:51:29,891 --> 01:51:33,727
when we start to ask the people
which they worked before us
1201
01:51:33,853 --> 01:51:35,604
what had happened with them.
1202
01:51:35,730 --> 01:51:39,233
They said, "What do you mean,
what happened? Don't you know that?
1203
01:51:40,068 --> 01:51:43,028
"They're all gassed. They're all killed."
1204
01:51:43,780 --> 01:51:48,283
It was impossible to say something
1205
01:51:48,827 --> 01:51:51,286
because we were just like stones.
1206
01:51:51,413 --> 01:51:54,248
We couldn't mention
what had happened to the wife,
1207
01:51:54,374 --> 01:51:55,833
what had happened to the kid.
1208
01:51:55,959 --> 01:51:58,001
"What do you mean, wife?
What do you mean, kid?
1209
01:51:58,128 --> 01:52:00,295
"Nobody is anymore alive!"
1210
01:52:00,422 --> 01:52:02,840
"What do you mean, they're not alive?
How could they...?
1211
01:52:02,966 --> 01:52:07,553
"How could they kill, how could
they gas so many people at once?"
1212
01:52:07,679 --> 01:52:10,973
But they had their way how to do it.
1213
01:52:19,983 --> 01:52:24,611
(Glazar) All I could think of
then was my friend Carel Unger.
1214
01:52:26,322 --> 01:52:29,908
He'd been at the rear of the train,
1215
01:52:30,034 --> 01:52:34,830
in a section that had been
uncoupled and left outside.
1216
01:52:36,666 --> 01:52:41,587
I needed someone.
Near me. With me.
1217
01:52:45,049 --> 01:52:49,052
Then I saw him.
He was in the 2nd group.
1218
01:52:49,179 --> 01:52:51,847
He'd been spared too.
1219
01:52:54,559 --> 01:52:59,772
On the way, somehow,
he had learned, he already knew.
1220
01:52:59,898 --> 01:53:02,524
He looked at me,
1221
01:53:03,943 --> 01:53:09,823
all he said was,
"Richard, my father, mother, brother..."
1222
01:53:11,785 --> 01:53:14,995
He had learned on the way there.
1223
01:53:17,749 --> 01:53:21,460
(Lanzmann) Your meeting with Carel,
1224
01:53:21,586 --> 01:53:25,255
how long after your arrival
did it happen?
1225
01:53:26,800 --> 01:53:33,514
It was... around 20 minutes
after we reached Treblinka.
1226
01:53:40,563 --> 01:53:43,649
Then I left the barracks
1227
01:53:43,775 --> 01:53:48,695
and had my first look
at the vast space
1228
01:53:49,447 --> 01:53:56,620
that I soon learned was called
"the sorting place."
1229
01:53:57,789 --> 01:54:03,168
It was buried under mountains
of objects of all kinds.
1230
01:54:03,920 --> 01:54:08,549
Mountains of shoes,
of clothes, 30 feet high.
1231
01:54:11,344 --> 01:54:15,264
I thought about it and said to Carel,
1232
01:54:15,390 --> 01:54:18,559
"It's a hurricane, a raging sea.
1233
01:54:18,685 --> 01:54:22,729
"We're shipwrecked.
And we're still alive.
1234
01:54:22,856 --> 01:54:25,274
"We must do nothing
1235
01:54:25,400 --> 01:54:28,569
"but watch for every new wave,
1236
01:54:28,695 --> 01:54:31,738
"float on it,
1237
01:54:31,865 --> 01:54:37,744
"get ready for the next wave,
1238
01:54:37,871 --> 01:54:39,913
"and ride the wave at all costs.
1239
01:54:40,039 --> 01:54:42,499
"And nothing else."
1240
01:54:45,295 --> 01:54:48,338
That's how the day went through,
1241
01:54:49,257 --> 01:54:51,383
without anything.
1242
01:54:51,509 --> 01:54:53,302
No drinking.
1243
01:54:53,428 --> 01:54:57,180
We were 24 hours without water,
without anything.
1244
01:54:57,307 --> 01:54:58,807
We couldn't drink.
1245
01:54:58,933 --> 01:55:02,311
We couldn't have anything
taken into our mouths,
1246
01:55:02,437 --> 01:55:04,813
because it was impossible.
1247
01:55:04,939 --> 01:55:07,608
Just the meaning that before...
1248
01:55:07,734 --> 01:55:09,735
a minute, an hour before,
1249
01:55:09,861 --> 01:55:11,778
you were part of a family,
1250
01:55:11,905 --> 01:55:14,990
you were part of a wife or a husband,
1251
01:55:15,116 --> 01:55:19,953
and now, all of a sudden,
everything is dead.
1252
01:55:21,247 --> 01:55:23,832
We went into a special barrack,
1253
01:55:24,667 --> 01:55:28,503
where I was sleeping
right next to the wall.
1254
01:55:29,672 --> 01:55:33,425
And over there, that night,
1255
01:55:33,551 --> 01:55:36,762
it was the most horrible night
for all the people,
1256
01:55:37,764 --> 01:55:40,223
because the memory
of all those things,
1257
01:55:40,350 --> 01:55:43,226
what people went through
with each other,
1258
01:55:43,353 --> 01:55:44,937
all the joys and the happiness,
1259
01:55:45,063 --> 01:55:48,523
and the births and the weddings
and other things,
1260
01:55:48,650 --> 01:55:51,068
and all of a sudden, in one second,
1261
01:55:51,194 --> 01:55:54,071
to cut that through without anything,
1262
01:55:54,197 --> 01:55:56,448
and without any guilt of the people,
1263
01:55:56,574 --> 01:55:58,575
because the people
were not guilty at all.
1264
01:55:58,701 --> 01:56:02,704
The only guilt from them was
because they were Jewish people.
1265
01:56:05,333 --> 01:56:09,086
Most of us, we were all up at night,
1266
01:56:09,212 --> 01:56:13,131
trying to talk to each other,
which was not allowed.
1267
01:56:13,257 --> 01:56:16,468
The commandant was sleeping
in the same barrack.
1268
01:56:16,594 --> 01:56:19,137
We were not allowed
to talk to each other
1269
01:56:19,263 --> 01:56:24,935
or to express our view
or our minds to each other
1270
01:56:25,770 --> 01:56:30,023
until the morning, at 5:00,
1271
01:56:31,109 --> 01:56:35,612
we start going out from the barracks.
1272
01:56:37,281 --> 01:56:38,949
In the morning,
1273
01:56:39,993 --> 01:56:44,788
when they had an Appelle
to go out from the barracks,
1274
01:56:44,914 --> 01:56:46,707
from our group,
1275
01:56:46,833 --> 01:56:51,753
I would say at least
four or five were dead.
1276
01:56:52,588 --> 01:56:55,882
I don't know how
the thing happened that, what?
1277
01:56:56,009 --> 01:57:02,681
They must have with them
some kind of... some kind of poison
1278
01:57:02,807 --> 01:57:04,891
in which they poisoned themselves.
1279
01:57:05,018 --> 01:57:07,102
Some of them there,
1280
01:57:07,228 --> 01:57:10,313
I would say at least of them
were my friends,
1281
01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:12,691
two of my close friends.
1282
01:57:12,817 --> 01:57:14,818
They didn't say anything.
1283
01:57:14,944 --> 01:57:18,155
We didn't even know that
they have with them poison.
1284
01:57:23,119 --> 01:57:26,413
(Glazar in German)
Greenery, sand everywhere else.
1285
01:57:26,539 --> 01:57:29,666
At night, we were put into barracks.
1286
01:57:29,792 --> 01:57:31,710
It just had a sand floor.
1287
01:57:31,836 --> 01:57:34,296
Nothing else.
1288
01:57:34,756 --> 01:57:40,177
Each of us simply dropped
where he stood.
1289
01:57:40,928 --> 01:57:47,184
Half asleep,
I heard some men hang themselves.
1290
01:57:47,310 --> 01:57:51,521
We didn't react then.
It was almost normal.
1291
01:57:52,940 --> 01:57:54,983
Just as it was normal
1292
01:57:55,109 --> 01:58:02,657
that for everyone behind whom
the gate of Treblinka closed,
1293
01:58:03,117 --> 01:58:07,079
there was death, had to be death,
1294
01:58:07,205 --> 01:58:14,044
for no one was supposed
to be left to bear witness.
1295
01:58:15,838 --> 01:58:19,925
I already knew that,
1296
01:58:20,051 --> 01:58:25,597
three hours after arriving at Treblinka.
1297
01:58:39,904 --> 01:58:43,573
(♪ Man sings in German:
"Mandolinen um Mitternacht")
1298
02:00:26,594 --> 02:00:28,595
BERLIN
1299
02:00:29,764 --> 02:00:32,641
(Woman) This is no longer home,
you see?
1300
02:00:33,893 --> 02:00:36,978
And, especially, it's no longer home
1301
02:00:37,104 --> 02:00:41,566
when they start telling me that
they didn't know, they didn't know.
1302
02:00:41,692 --> 02:00:43,401
They say they didn't see.
1303
02:00:43,527 --> 02:00:45,654
"Yes, there were Jews
living in our house.
1304
02:00:45,780 --> 02:00:47,572
"One day,
they were no longer there.
1305
02:00:47,698 --> 02:00:50,116
"We didn't know what happened."
1306
02:00:51,118 --> 02:00:55,163
They couldn't help seeing it.
It was not a matter of one action.
1307
02:00:55,289 --> 02:00:59,918
These were actions that were
taking place over almost two years.
1308
02:01:00,544 --> 02:01:04,714
There was always... Every fortnight
people were torn out of the houses.
1309
02:01:04,840 --> 02:01:08,176
How could they escape it?
How could they not see it?
1310
02:01:10,388 --> 02:01:14,349
I remember that day on which
they made Berlin judenrein.
1311
02:01:14,475 --> 02:01:18,270
The people hastened in the streets.
They didn't want to be in the street.
1312
02:01:18,396 --> 02:01:21,606
You could see the streets
were absolutely empty.
1313
02:01:22,358 --> 02:01:24,192
They didn't want to look, you know?
1314
02:01:24,318 --> 02:01:26,695
They sort of hastened
to buy what they had to buy.
1315
02:01:26,821 --> 02:01:30,240
It was Saturday, and they had to buy
something for the Sunday, you see?
1316
02:01:30,366 --> 02:01:34,869
So they went shopping and
hastened back into their houses.
1317
02:01:41,711 --> 02:01:43,962
And I remember this day very vividly,
1318
02:01:44,088 --> 02:01:47,799
because we saw police cars
1319
02:01:47,925 --> 02:01:51,469
rushing through the streets of Berlin,
1320
02:01:51,595 --> 02:01:54,597
taking people out of the houses.
1321
02:01:55,099 --> 02:01:58,059
They had herded together
from factories, from the houses,
1322
02:01:58,185 --> 02:02:00,353
wherever they could find the Jews,
1323
02:02:00,479 --> 02:02:05,275
and had put them into something
that was called Klu.
1324
02:02:05,401 --> 02:02:10,780
Klu was a dance restaurant,
a very big one.
1325
02:02:11,240 --> 02:02:15,702
From there, they were deported
in various transports.
1326
02:02:16,871 --> 02:02:18,872
They were going off
not far from here,
1327
02:02:18,998 --> 02:02:21,916
on one of the tracks
of the Bahnhof Grunewald.
1328
02:02:25,171 --> 02:02:28,757
And this was a day when I felt so...
1329
02:02:28,883 --> 02:02:31,259
suddenly so utterly alone,
1330
02:02:31,385 --> 02:02:34,512
so utterly left alone...
1331
02:02:38,893 --> 02:02:43,104
...because now I knew we would be
one of the very few people left.
1332
02:02:43,230 --> 02:02:46,900
I didn't know how many more
would be underground.
1333
02:02:56,702 --> 02:03:01,539
And this was a day when I felt
very guilty that I didn't go myself,
1334
02:03:01,665 --> 02:03:08,171
that I tried to escape a fate
that the others could not escape.
1335
02:03:09,757 --> 02:03:15,804
There was no more warmth around,
no more soul akin to us, you understand?
1336
02:03:15,930 --> 02:03:17,389
And we talked about this.
1337
02:03:17,515 --> 02:03:20,850
"What happened to Elsa,
and what happened to Hans?"
1338
02:03:20,976 --> 02:03:24,312
"Where is he, and where is she?
Do you know this?"
1339
02:03:24,438 --> 02:03:26,606
"My God,
what happened to the child?"
1340
02:03:26,732 --> 02:03:30,568
You know, these were our talks
on that horrible day.
1341
02:03:30,694 --> 02:03:36,282
This feeling of being terribly alone
and terribly guilty that we did not go...
1342
02:03:36,409 --> 02:03:39,702
- (Lanzmann) Guilty?
- That we did not go with them.
1343
02:03:41,163 --> 02:03:43,164
(Man shouting in German)
1344
02:03:54,718 --> 02:03:57,387
Why did we try? Why? Why?
1345
02:03:57,513 --> 02:03:59,389
What made us do this,
1346
02:03:59,515 --> 02:04:02,100
to escape a fate
that was really our destiny
1347
02:04:02,226 --> 02:04:04,519
or the destiny of our people?
1348
02:04:04,645 --> 02:04:08,648
INGE DEUTSCHKRON
BORN IN BERLIN
1349
02:04:08,774 --> 02:04:12,861
LIVED THERE
THROUGH THE WAR
1350
02:04:12,987 --> 02:04:17,240
IN HIDING BEGINNING
IN FEBRUARY 1943
1351
02:04:17,366 --> 02:04:20,368
NOW LIVES IN ISRAEL
1352
02:04:54,153 --> 02:04:57,780
FRANZ SUCHOMEL:
SS Unterscharführer
1353
02:04:59,992 --> 02:05:03,786
(Lanzmann in German) Are you ready?
(Suchomel in German) Yes.
1354
02:05:03,913 --> 02:05:06,331
- (Lanzmann) Then we can...
- We can begin.
1355
02:05:06,457 --> 02:05:08,458
(Lanzmann) We can begin.
1356
02:05:10,294 --> 02:05:14,506
(Lanzmann) How's your heart?
Is everything in order?
1357
02:05:15,716 --> 02:05:18,593
(Suchomel) Oh, my heart...
For the moment, it's all right.
1358
02:05:18,719 --> 02:05:22,305
If I have any pain, I'll tell you.
1359
02:05:22,431 --> 02:05:25,767
- We'll have to break off.
- (Lanzmann) Of course.
1360
02:05:27,811 --> 02:05:30,230
But your health, in general, is...
1361
02:05:30,356 --> 02:05:34,108
(Suchomel) The weather today
suits me fine.
1362
02:05:34,235 --> 02:05:38,863
The barometric pressure is high.
That's good for me.
1363
02:05:38,989 --> 02:05:43,826
(Lanzmann) You look to be
in good shape, anyway.
1364
02:05:43,953 --> 02:05:49,082
- Let's begin with Treblinka.
- Certainly.
1365
02:05:49,208 --> 02:05:51,459
(Lanzmann) I think that's best.
1366
02:05:51,585 --> 02:05:55,755
If you could give us...
1367
02:05:57,299 --> 02:06:01,177
...a description of Treblinka.
1368
02:06:01,887 --> 02:06:05,265
How did it look when you arrived?
1369
02:06:05,391 --> 02:06:10,436
- I believe you got there in August?
- Mid-August.
1370
02:06:10,563 --> 02:06:14,399
- Was it August 20 or 24?
- 18th.
1371
02:06:14,525 --> 02:06:17,485
- The 18th?
- I don't know exactly.
1372
02:06:17,611 --> 02:06:20,947
Around August 20.
1373
02:06:21,073 --> 02:06:22,073
(Lanzmann) Yes.
1374
02:06:22,199 --> 02:06:26,160
(Suchomel) I arrived there
with seven other men.
1375
02:06:26,787 --> 02:06:29,706
- (Lanzmann) From Berlin?
- From Berlin.
1376
02:06:29,832 --> 02:06:31,666
(Lanzmann) From Lublin?
1377
02:06:32,334 --> 02:06:36,337
(Suchomel) From Berlin to Warsaw,
from Warsaw to Lublin,
1378
02:06:36,463 --> 02:06:42,010
from Lublin back to Warsaw
and from Warsaw to Treblinka.
1379
02:06:42,136 --> 02:06:46,472
(Lanzmann)
What was Treblinka like then?
1380
02:06:47,141 --> 02:06:52,061
Treblinka then was operating
at full capacity.
1381
02:06:52,646 --> 02:06:55,315
- Full capacity?
- Full capacity.
1382
02:06:56,984 --> 02:06:59,319
Trains arrived...
1383
02:07:00,613 --> 02:07:04,699
The Warsaw ghetto
was being emptied then.
1384
02:07:04,825 --> 02:07:06,200
Yes.
1385
02:07:06,827 --> 02:07:13,416
Three trains arrived in two days...
1386
02:07:14,960 --> 02:07:22,091
...each with three, four,
five thousand people aboard,
1387
02:07:23,052 --> 02:07:25,553
all from Warsaw.
1388
02:07:26,221 --> 02:07:31,392
But at the same time,
other trains came in
1389
02:07:32,269 --> 02:07:37,065
from Kielce and other places.
1390
02:07:38,067 --> 02:07:41,277
So three trains arrived,
1391
02:07:42,237 --> 02:07:48,451
and since the offensive
against Stalingrad was in fear,
1392
02:07:48,577 --> 02:07:53,498
the trainloads of Jews
were left on a station siding.
1393
02:07:54,458 --> 02:08:00,296
What's more,
the cars were French,
1394
02:08:00,422 --> 02:08:02,799
made of steel.
1395
02:08:02,925 --> 02:08:09,138
So that while 5,000 Jews
arrived in Treblinka,
1396
02:08:09,765 --> 02:08:12,517
3,000 were dead.
1397
02:08:13,185 --> 02:08:15,311
In the cars.
1398
02:08:15,437 --> 02:08:17,980
They had slashed their wrists,
1399
02:08:19,858 --> 02:08:22,735
or just died.
1400
02:08:25,364 --> 02:08:29,701
The ones we unloaded
were half-dead
1401
02:08:29,827 --> 02:08:34,789
and... half-mad.
1402
02:08:37,084 --> 02:08:42,922
In the other trains from Kielce
1403
02:08:43,048 --> 02:08:45,550
and elsewhere,
1404
02:08:46,260 --> 02:08:49,053
at least halfwere dead.
1405
02:08:50,013 --> 02:08:54,142
We stacked them here, here,
1406
02:08:56,186 --> 02:08:58,271
here and here.
1407
02:08:58,856 --> 02:09:01,733
Thousands of people
1408
02:09:02,735 --> 02:09:05,945
piled one on top of another.
1409
02:09:08,073 --> 02:09:10,408
- (Lanzmann) On the ramp?
- On the ramp.
1410
02:09:11,076 --> 02:09:14,495
Stacked like wood.
1411
02:09:14,621 --> 02:09:15,830
In addition,
1412
02:09:15,956 --> 02:09:21,669
other Jews, still alive,
waited there for two days.
1413
02:09:21,795 --> 02:09:26,132
The small gas chambers could
no longer handle the number.
1414
02:09:26,258 --> 02:09:33,139
They functioned
day and night in that period.
1415
02:09:33,265 --> 02:09:38,060
Can you please describe,
very precisely,
1416
02:09:38,187 --> 02:09:42,231
your first impression of Treblinka?
1417
02:09:42,357 --> 02:09:46,194
Very precisely. It's very important.
1418
02:09:46,320 --> 02:09:50,823
My first impression of Treblinka,
1419
02:09:51,450 --> 02:09:57,497
and that of some of the other men,
was catastrophic.
1420
02:09:58,415 --> 02:10:01,375
For we had not been told
1421
02:10:02,211 --> 02:10:07,632
how and what...
that people were being killed there.
1422
02:10:07,758 --> 02:10:09,258
They hadn't told us.
1423
02:10:09,384 --> 02:10:11,511
- You didn't know?
- No.
1424
02:10:12,137 --> 02:10:14,680
That's incredible.
1425
02:10:14,807 --> 02:10:18,851
But true. I didn't want to go.
1426
02:10:19,770 --> 02:10:22,438
- That was proved at my trial.
- Yes.
1427
02:10:22,564 --> 02:10:24,816
I was told,
1428
02:10:24,942 --> 02:10:26,859
"Mr. Suchomel,
1429
02:10:27,528 --> 02:10:31,781
"there are big workshops there
for tailors and shoemakers,
1430
02:10:31,907 --> 02:10:34,325
"and you'll be guarding them."
1431
02:10:34,451 --> 02:10:35,993
- Yes.
- Nothing more.
1432
02:10:36,119 --> 02:10:39,914
But you knew it was a camp?
1433
02:10:40,040 --> 02:10:42,667
Yes, we were told,
1434
02:10:42,793 --> 02:10:49,006
"The Führer ordered
a resettlement program.
1435
02:10:49,132 --> 02:10:52,885
"That's an order from the Führer."
1436
02:10:53,011 --> 02:10:54,762
- Understand?
- Resettlement program...
1437
02:10:54,888 --> 02:10:58,224
A resettlement program.
1438
02:10:59,101 --> 02:11:01,978
No one ever spoke of killing.
1439
02:11:02,104 --> 02:11:04,856
(Lanzmann) I understand.
1440
02:11:04,982 --> 02:11:09,193
Mr. Suchomel,
we're not discussing you,
1441
02:11:09,319 --> 02:11:11,237
only Treblinka.
1442
02:11:11,363 --> 02:11:14,740
You are a very important eyewitness,
1443
02:11:14,867 --> 02:11:19,662
and you can explain what Treblinka was.
1444
02:11:19,788 --> 02:11:25,877
- (Suchomel) But don't use my name.
- No, I promise.
1445
02:11:26,003 --> 02:11:27,962
(Suchomel mutters)
1446
02:11:28,088 --> 02:11:31,090
(Lanzmann)
All right, you've arrived at Treblinka.
1447
02:11:31,216 --> 02:11:37,889
(Suchomel) So Stadie, the sarge,
showed us the camp
1448
02:11:40,100 --> 02:11:43,728
From end to end.
1449
02:11:45,981 --> 02:11:49,734
Just as we went by,
1450
02:11:49,860 --> 02:11:55,489
they were opening
the gas chamber doors,
1451
02:11:55,616 --> 02:12:00,202
and people fell out like potatoes.
1452
02:12:03,540 --> 02:12:08,544
Naturally, that horrified
and appalled us.
1453
02:12:09,046 --> 02:12:13,633
We went back and sat down
on our suitcases
1454
02:12:13,759 --> 02:12:17,219
and cried like old women.
1455
02:12:21,725 --> 02:12:26,395
Each day, 100 Jews were chosen
1456
02:12:27,022 --> 02:12:31,067
to drag the corpses to the mass graves.
1457
02:12:32,402 --> 02:12:40,402
In the evening, the Ukrainians drove
those Jews into the gas chambers
1458
02:12:40,535 --> 02:12:42,119
or shot them.
1459
02:12:42,245 --> 02:12:43,996
Every day.
1460
02:12:46,458 --> 02:12:49,669
It was in the hottest days of August.
1461
02:12:53,131 --> 02:12:58,052
The ground undulated like waves
1462
02:12:58,178 --> 02:12:59,887
because of the gas.
1463
02:13:00,013 --> 02:13:02,556
- (Lanzmann) From the bodies?
- Yes.
1464
02:13:02,683 --> 02:13:08,104
Bear in mind, the graves were
maybe 18, 20 feet deep.
1465
02:13:08,230 --> 02:13:12,650
All crammed with bodies.
1466
02:13:13,443 --> 02:13:17,989
A thin layer of sand
and the heat. You see?
1467
02:13:18,115 --> 02:13:20,366
It was hell up there.
1468
02:13:20,492 --> 02:13:25,746
- (Lanzmann) You saw that?
- Yes, just once, the first day.
1469
02:13:25,872 --> 02:13:28,833
We puked and wept.
1470
02:13:28,959 --> 02:13:31,585
- You wept?
- We wept too, yes.
1471
02:13:35,882 --> 02:13:38,759
- The smell was infernal.
- Infernal?
1472
02:13:38,885 --> 02:13:43,097
Yes, because gas was
constantly escaping.
1473
02:13:43,223 --> 02:13:47,852
It stank horribly, for miles around.
1474
02:13:47,978 --> 02:13:50,146
- Miles?
- Miles!
1475
02:13:50,272 --> 02:13:53,107
- You could smell it all around?
- All around!
1476
02:13:53,233 --> 02:13:55,234
Not just in the camp?
1477
02:13:55,360 --> 02:13:59,488
Everywhere.
It depended on the wind.
1478
02:13:59,614 --> 02:14:02,575
The stink was carried on the wind.
1479
02:14:03,577 --> 02:14:05,494
Understand?
1480
02:14:13,628 --> 02:14:17,840
(Suchomel) More people kept coming,
always more,
1481
02:14:17,966 --> 02:14:21,802
whom we hadn't the facilities to kill.
1482
02:14:27,684 --> 02:14:33,022
Those gents were in a rush
to clean out the Warsaw ghetto.
1483
02:14:36,359 --> 02:14:40,321
The gas chambers
couldn't handle the load.
1484
02:14:40,447 --> 02:14:42,990
The small gas chambers.
1485
02:14:59,549 --> 02:15:03,094
The Jews had to wait their turn
1486
02:15:03,220 --> 02:15:07,723
for a day, 2 days, 3 days.
1487
02:15:14,022 --> 02:15:16,398
They foresaw what was coming.
1488
02:15:17,526 --> 02:15:20,069
They foresaw it.
1489
02:15:21,404 --> 02:15:26,742
They may not have been certain,
but many knew.
1490
02:15:31,581 --> 02:15:36,210
There were Jewish women
1491
02:15:36,753 --> 02:15:40,673
who slashed
their daughters' wrists at night,
1492
02:15:40,799 --> 02:15:44,135
then cut their own.
1493
02:15:44,928 --> 02:15:47,638
Others poisoned themselves.
1494
02:15:48,932 --> 02:15:54,478
They heard the engine
feeding the gas chamber.
1495
02:15:57,607 --> 02:16:02,194
A tank engine was used
in that gas chamber.
1496
02:16:03,989 --> 02:16:09,535
At Treblinka, the only gas used
was engine exhaust.
1497
02:16:09,995 --> 02:16:12,413
Zyklon gas, that was Auschwitz.
1498
02:16:19,087 --> 02:16:22,923
Because of the delay,
1499
02:16:23,675 --> 02:16:28,470
Eberl, the camp commandant,
1500
02:16:29,431 --> 02:16:33,767
phoned Lublin and said,
1501
02:16:34,519 --> 02:16:38,647
"We can't go on this way.
I can't do it any longer.
1502
02:16:38,773 --> 02:16:42,943
"We have to break off."
1503
02:16:43,069 --> 02:16:46,780
Overnight, Wirth arrived.
1504
02:16:47,908 --> 02:16:51,619
He inspected everything and then left.
1505
02:16:51,745 --> 02:16:55,873
He returned with people from Belzec,
1506
02:16:55,999 --> 02:16:58,334
experts.
1507
02:16:59,502 --> 02:17:04,131
Wirth arranged to suspend the trains.
1508
02:17:06,676 --> 02:17:11,680
The corpses lying there
were cleared away.
1509
02:17:13,183 --> 02:17:17,811
That was the period
of the old gas chambers.
1510
02:17:18,355 --> 02:17:23,400
Because there were so many dead
1511
02:17:23,526 --> 02:17:26,278
that couldn't be gotten rid of,
1512
02:17:26,863 --> 02:17:31,116
for days and days,
1513
02:17:32,452 --> 02:17:37,581
the bodies piled up
around the gas chambers.
1514
02:17:38,875 --> 02:17:43,254
Under this pile of bodies
was a cesspool,
1515
02:17:44,005 --> 02:17:48,592
three inches deep,
full of blood, worms...
1516
02:17:50,220 --> 02:17:52,429
...and shit.
1517
02:17:54,641 --> 02:17:58,560
- Where?
- In front of the gas chamber.
1518
02:18:00,397 --> 02:18:03,148
No one wanted to clean it out.
1519
02:18:03,275 --> 02:18:07,319
The Jews preferred to be shot
1520
02:18:08,446 --> 02:18:11,282
rather than work there.
1521
02:18:11,950 --> 02:18:14,451
- Preferred to be shot?
- To be shot.
1522
02:18:17,289 --> 02:18:23,210
It was awful. Burying
their own people, seeing it all...
1523
02:18:23,336 --> 02:18:27,715
The dead flesh came off
in their hands.
1524
02:18:28,800 --> 02:18:31,885
So Wirth went there himself
1525
02:18:32,929 --> 02:18:34,930
with a few Germans
1526
02:18:36,683 --> 02:18:40,686
and he had long belts rigged up
1527
02:18:41,146 --> 02:18:45,691
that were wrapped around
the dead torsos to pull them.
1528
02:18:45,817 --> 02:18:48,235
- Who did that?
- The SS men.
1529
02:18:48,361 --> 02:18:50,404
- Wirth?
- SS men and Jews.
1530
02:18:50,530 --> 02:18:52,990
- SS men and Jews?
- And Jews.
1531
02:18:53,116 --> 02:18:56,035
- But Jews too?
- Jews too!
1532
02:18:57,996 --> 02:19:02,249
What did the Germans do?
1533
02:19:02,375 --> 02:19:05,586
They forced the Jews to...
1534
02:19:05,712 --> 02:19:07,921
They beat them?
1535
02:19:08,048 --> 02:19:13,469
Or they themselves helped
with the clean-up.
1536
02:19:13,595 --> 02:19:16,597
Which Germans did that?
1537
02:19:18,099 --> 02:19:24,271
Some of our guards
who were assigned up there.
1538
02:19:26,941 --> 02:19:31,653
- The Germans themselves?
- They had to.
1539
02:19:32,113 --> 02:19:33,530
They were in command.
1540
02:19:33,656 --> 02:19:39,078
They were in command,
but they were also commanded.
1541
02:19:39,204 --> 02:19:42,081
(Lanzmann)
I think the Jews did it.
1542
02:19:43,917 --> 02:19:49,838
In that case,
the Germans had to lend a hand.
1543
02:19:51,674 --> 02:19:55,719
THE BLACK EXECUTION WALL
IN THE COURTYARD OF BLOCK II
1544
02:19:57,847 --> 02:20:01,975
AT AUSCHWITZ I,
THE ORIGINAL CAMP
1545
02:20:04,562 --> 02:20:08,524
(Lanzmann in German)
Filip, on that Sunday in May 71942,
1546
02:20:08,650 --> 02:20:15,239
when you first entered
the Auschwitz crematorium,
1547
02:20:15,365 --> 02:20:17,366
how old were you?
1548
02:20:18,243 --> 02:20:20,035
(Filip) Twenty.
1549
02:20:27,544 --> 02:20:30,546
It was a Sunday in May.
1550
02:20:38,221 --> 02:20:43,600
We were locked
in an underground cell in Block 11.
1551
02:20:45,145 --> 02:20:47,896
We were held in secret.
1552
02:20:52,193 --> 02:20:55,904
Then some SS men appeared
1553
02:20:57,740 --> 02:21:02,578
and marched us
along a street in the camp.
1554
02:21:12,881 --> 02:21:16,967
We went through a gate,
1555
02:21:23,433 --> 02:21:26,185
and around 300 feet away,
1556
02:21:27,145 --> 02:21:29,646
300 feet from the gate,
1557
02:21:30,231 --> 02:21:33,859
I suddenly saw a building.
1558
02:21:33,985 --> 02:21:39,698
It had a flat roof,
and a smokestack.
1559
02:21:48,625 --> 02:21:51,710
I saw a door in the rear.
1560
02:21:55,548 --> 02:22:01,220
I thought they were taking us
to be shot.
1561
02:22:03,515 --> 02:22:06,600
FILIP MULLER - CZECH JEW
1562
02:22:06,726 --> 02:22:11,605
SURVIVOR OF FIVE LIQUIDATIONS
OF AUSCHWITZ "SPECIAL DETAIL"
1563
02:22:14,400 --> 02:22:18,278
Suddenly, before a door,
1564
02:22:19,447 --> 02:22:25,077
under a lamp
in the middle of this building,
1565
02:22:25,203 --> 02:22:30,332
a young SS man told us,
1566
02:22:30,458 --> 02:22:33,544
"Inside, filthy swine!"
1567
02:22:33,670 --> 02:22:37,339
We entered a corridor.
1568
02:22:38,633 --> 02:22:41,510
They drove us along it.
1569
02:22:53,189 --> 02:22:59,194
Right away, the stench,
the smoke choked me.
1570
02:23:08,830 --> 02:23:11,582
They kept on chasing us,
1571
02:23:12,875 --> 02:23:17,254
and then I made out the shapes
1572
02:23:18,256 --> 02:23:21,758
of the first two ovens.
1573
02:23:26,889 --> 02:23:31,476
Between the ovens,
some Jewish prisoners were working.
1574
02:23:37,233 --> 02:23:42,321
We were in the crematorium's
incineration chamber
1575
02:23:42,780 --> 02:23:45,616
in Camp I at Auschwitz.
1576
02:23:52,123 --> 02:23:53,665
From there,
1577
02:23:54,167 --> 02:24:00,255
they herded us to another big room,
1578
02:24:04,510 --> 02:24:09,806
and told us to undress the corpses.
1579
02:24:12,518 --> 02:24:14,978
I looked around me.
1580
02:24:18,107 --> 02:24:21,693
There were hundreds of bodies,
1581
02:24:23,112 --> 02:24:25,489
all dressed.
1582
02:24:27,158 --> 02:24:29,910
Piled with the corpses
1583
02:24:31,204 --> 02:24:34,289
were suitcases, bundles
1584
02:24:34,999 --> 02:24:37,084
and, scattered everywhere,
1585
02:24:37,669 --> 02:24:41,755
strange, bluish-purple crystals.
1586
02:24:41,881 --> 02:24:45,133
I couldn't understand any of it.
1587
02:24:52,433 --> 02:24:58,480
It was like a blow to the head,
as if you'd been stunned.
1588
02:24:58,606 --> 02:25:01,817
I didn't even know where I was.
1589
02:25:01,943 --> 02:25:04,569
Above all, I couldn't understand
1590
02:25:04,696 --> 02:25:08,949
how they managed to kill
so many people at once.
1591
02:25:11,494 --> 02:25:14,913
When we undressed some of them,
1592
02:25:15,039 --> 02:25:18,959
the order was given to feed the ovens.
1593
02:25:23,464 --> 02:25:28,093
Suddenly, an SS man
rushed up and told me,
1594
02:25:28,219 --> 02:25:31,847
"Get out of here!
Go and stir the bodies!"
1595
02:25:31,973 --> 02:25:36,435
What did he mean,
"Stir the bodies"?
1596
02:25:36,978 --> 02:25:41,523
I entered the cremation chamber.
1597
02:25:41,649 --> 02:25:46,236
There was a Jewish prisoner,
1598
02:25:46,362 --> 02:25:50,449
Fischel, who later became
a squad leader.
1599
02:25:50,950 --> 02:25:52,701
He looked at me,
1600
02:25:53,369 --> 02:25:59,916
and I watched him
poke the fire with a long rod.
1601
02:26:00,501 --> 02:26:04,212
He told me, "Do as I'm doing
1602
02:26:04,338 --> 02:26:07,507
"or the SS will kill you."
1603
02:26:08,134 --> 02:26:11,678
I picked up a poker
1604
02:26:11,804 --> 02:26:14,473
and did as he was doing.
1605
02:26:14,599 --> 02:26:16,892
(Lanzmann) A poker?
1606
02:26:17,018 --> 02:26:18,977
A steel poker.
1607
02:26:20,062 --> 02:26:23,440
I obeyed Fischel's order.
1608
02:26:23,566 --> 02:26:28,612
At that point, I was in shock
as if I'd been hypnotised,
1609
02:26:29,363 --> 02:26:35,118
and ready to do
1610
02:26:35,244 --> 02:26:37,704
whatever I was told.
1611
02:26:37,830 --> 02:26:44,544
I was so mindless, so horrified,
1612
02:26:44,670 --> 02:26:52,670
that I did everything Fischel told me.
1613
02:26:53,304 --> 02:26:56,306
So the ovens were fed,
1614
02:26:57,058 --> 02:27:00,852
but we were so inexperienced
1615
02:27:01,896 --> 02:27:09,896
that we left the fans on too long.
1616
02:27:10,613 --> 02:27:13,615
- The fans?
- Yes.
1617
02:27:13,741 --> 02:27:18,036
There were fans
to make the fire hotter.
1618
02:27:18,496 --> 02:27:22,415
They worked too long...
1619
02:27:22,542 --> 02:27:27,838
The firebrick suddenly exploded,
1620
02:27:28,840 --> 02:27:34,010
blocking the pipes
1621
02:27:34,136 --> 02:27:37,556
linking the Auschwitz crematorium
1622
02:27:38,349 --> 02:27:41,643
with the smokestack.
1623
02:27:43,563 --> 02:27:47,774
Cremation was interrupted.
1624
02:27:48,401 --> 02:27:52,070
The ovens were out of action.
1625
02:27:54,657 --> 02:27:59,411
That evening, some trucks came,
1626
02:27:59,537 --> 02:28:01,788
and we had to load the rest,
1627
02:28:01,914 --> 02:28:05,000
some 300 bodies,
1628
02:28:05,126 --> 02:28:08,003
into the trucks.
1629
02:28:08,129 --> 02:28:13,133
Then we were taken...
1630
02:28:15,136 --> 02:28:18,179
I still don't know where,
1631
02:28:18,306 --> 02:28:23,268
but probably to a field at Birkenau.
1632
02:28:27,565 --> 02:28:34,195
We were ordered
to unload the bodies
1633
02:28:34,322 --> 02:28:40,702
and put them in a pit.
1634
02:28:41,287 --> 02:28:45,248
There was a ditch, an artificial pit.
1635
02:28:45,374 --> 02:28:48,877
Suddenly, water gushed up
from underground
1636
02:28:49,003 --> 02:28:52,213
and swept the bodies down.
1637
02:28:57,678 --> 02:29:02,599
When night came,
we had to stop that horrible work.
1638
02:29:03,559 --> 02:29:06,019
We were loaded into the trucks
1639
02:29:06,145 --> 02:29:10,565
and returned to Auschwitz.
1640
02:29:15,196 --> 02:29:17,030
The next day,
1641
02:29:17,156 --> 02:29:23,787
we were taken to the same place.
1642
02:29:31,379 --> 02:29:34,381
But the water had risen.
1643
02:29:36,050 --> 02:29:39,886
Some SS men came
with a fire truck
1644
02:29:40,012 --> 02:29:43,515
and pumped out the water.
1645
02:29:44,767 --> 02:29:48,770
We had to go down
into that muddy pit
1646
02:29:48,896 --> 02:29:52,607
to stack up the bodies.
1647
02:29:55,903 --> 02:29:57,612
But they were slimy.
1648
02:29:57,738 --> 02:30:02,117
For example, I grasped a woman,
1649
02:30:02,243 --> 02:30:04,536
but her hands...
1650
02:30:04,662 --> 02:30:06,955
Her hand was slippery, slimy.
1651
02:30:07,081 --> 02:30:09,666
I tried to pull her,
1652
02:30:09,792 --> 02:30:16,464
but I fell over backward,
into the water, the mud.
1653
02:30:18,050 --> 02:30:20,510
It was the same for all of us.
1654
02:30:20,636 --> 02:30:26,683
Up above, at the edge of the pit,
Aumeyer and Grabner yelled,
1655
02:30:26,809 --> 02:30:30,770
"Get cracking, you filth, you bastards!
1656
02:30:30,896 --> 02:30:35,525
"We'll show you,
you bunch of shits!"
1657
02:30:35,651 --> 02:30:39,029
These were the names
they were calling us.
1658
02:30:39,155 --> 02:30:41,156
And in these...
1659
02:30:46,620 --> 02:30:49,205
How shall I say?
...circumstances,
1660
02:30:50,624 --> 02:30:55,503
two of my friends
couldn't take any more.
1661
02:30:55,629 --> 02:30:58,381
One was a French student.
1662
02:30:59,508 --> 02:31:03,678
- Jews?
- All Jews. They were exhausted.
1663
02:31:06,724 --> 02:31:12,729
They just lay there...
1664
02:31:13,564 --> 02:31:16,608
in the mud.
1665
02:31:16,734 --> 02:31:20,612
Aumeyer called one of his SS men.
1666
02:31:20,738 --> 02:31:24,074
"Go on, finish off those swine!"
1667
02:31:27,536 --> 02:31:32,123
They were exhausted.
And they were shot in the pit.
1668
02:31:38,089 --> 02:31:43,468
(Lanzmann) There was
no crematorium at Birkenau then?
1669
02:31:44,178 --> 02:31:48,640
(Muller)
No, there weren't any there yet.
1670
02:31:50,309 --> 02:31:53,311
Birkenau still wasn't completely set up.
1671
02:31:53,813 --> 02:31:59,234
Only Camp B 1, which was
the late women is camp, existed.
1672
02:32:05,616 --> 02:32:09,369
It wasn't until the spring of 1943
1673
02:32:09,495 --> 02:32:14,999
that skilled workmen
and unskilled labourers, all Jews,
1674
02:32:15,126 --> 02:32:17,669
must have gone to work here
1675
02:32:17,795 --> 02:32:21,005
and built the four crematoria.
1676
02:32:24,385 --> 02:32:27,595
Each crematorium had 15 ovens,
1677
02:32:28,722 --> 02:32:33,560
a big undressing room,
around 3,000 square feet,
1678
02:32:34,395 --> 02:32:36,604
and a big gas chamber
1679
02:32:36,730 --> 02:32:41,359
where up to 3,000 people at once
could be gassed.
1680
02:32:44,071 --> 02:32:45,488
TREBLINKA
1681
02:32:45,614 --> 02:32:50,910
(Suchomel) The new gas chambers
were built in September 1942.
1682
02:32:51,412 --> 02:32:53,746
(Lanzmann) Who built them?
1683
02:32:54,248 --> 02:33:02,172
Hackenhold and Lambert supervised
the Jews who did the work,
1684
02:33:02,298 --> 02:33:04,841
the bricklaying, at least.
1685
02:33:06,302 --> 02:33:12,599
Ukrainian carpenters made the doors.
1686
02:33:14,435 --> 02:33:18,104
The gas chamber doors themselves
1687
02:33:18,230 --> 02:33:22,317
were armoured bunker doors.
1688
02:33:22,443 --> 02:33:26,321
I think they were brought
from Bialystok,
1689
02:33:26,447 --> 02:33:29,032
from some Russian bunkers.
1690
02:33:30,910 --> 02:33:32,952
FRANZ SUCHOMEL
1691
02:33:33,078 --> 02:33:37,207
What was the capacity
of the new gas chambers?
1692
02:33:37,333 --> 02:33:39,918
- There were two of them, right?
- Yes.
1693
02:33:40,044 --> 02:33:46,216
But the old ones hadn't
been demolished.
1694
02:33:47,718 --> 02:33:52,013
When there were a lot of trains,
a lot of people,
1695
02:33:52,139 --> 02:33:55,683
the old ovens
were put back into service.
1696
02:33:57,311 --> 02:34:02,815
And here... the Jews say
there were five on each side.
1697
02:34:02,942 --> 02:34:05,276
I say there were four,
1698
02:34:05,402 --> 02:34:07,612
but I'm not sure.
1699
02:34:07,738 --> 02:34:11,241
In any case, only the upper row,
1700
02:34:12,952 --> 02:34:14,869
on this side,
1701
02:34:15,746 --> 02:34:18,665
was in action.
1702
02:34:18,791 --> 02:34:21,125
(Lanzmann)
Why not the other side?
1703
02:34:21,252 --> 02:34:27,966
(Suchomel) Disposing of the bodies
would have been too complicated.
1704
02:34:28,676 --> 02:34:30,134
- Too far?
- Yes.
1705
02:34:30,261 --> 02:34:35,848
Up there, Wirth had built
the death camp,
1706
02:34:36,767 --> 02:34:43,189
assigning a detail
of Jewish workers to it.
1707
02:34:43,983 --> 02:34:47,568
The detail had a fixed number in it,
1708
02:34:47,695 --> 02:34:50,863
around 200 people.
1709
02:34:51,865 --> 02:34:53,908
(Lanzmann speaks German)
1710
02:34:54,034 --> 02:34:58,079
(Suchomel) ...who worked
only in the death camp.
1711
02:34:58,205 --> 02:35:03,084
(Lanzmann) But what was the capacity
of the new gas chambers?
1712
02:35:03,210 --> 02:35:07,547
The new gas chambers...
Let's see...
1713
02:35:08,382 --> 02:35:13,052
They could finish off 3,000 people
in two hours.
1714
02:35:15,806 --> 02:35:20,977
(Lanzmann) How many people
at once in a single gas chamber?
1715
02:35:21,103 --> 02:35:24,230
I can't say exactly.
1716
02:35:24,356 --> 02:35:26,733
The Jews say 200.
1717
02:35:27,276 --> 02:35:30,153
- 200?
- That's right, 200.
1718
02:35:31,405 --> 02:35:37,118
Imagine a room this size.
1719
02:35:37,244 --> 02:35:39,495
(Lanzmann)
They put more in at Auschwitz.
1720
02:35:39,621 --> 02:35:42,123
Auschwitz was a factory!
1721
02:35:44,084 --> 02:35:46,669
(Lanzmann) And Treblinka?
1722
02:35:46,795 --> 02:35:49,797
I'll give you my definition.
1723
02:35:50,632 --> 02:35:52,300
Keep this in mind.
1724
02:35:52,426 --> 02:35:58,014
Treblinka was a primitive,
1725
02:35:58,682 --> 02:36:05,146
but efficient production line of death.
1726
02:36:05,272 --> 02:36:08,066
- A production line?
- Of death.
1727
02:36:09,026 --> 02:36:11,194
- Understand?
- Yes.
1728
02:36:15,532 --> 02:36:19,744
- But primitive...?
- Primitive, yes.
1729
02:36:20,871 --> 02:36:25,917
But it worked well,
that production line of death.
1730
02:36:26,043 --> 02:36:29,212
Was Belzec even more rudimentary?
1731
02:36:29,338 --> 02:36:32,715
Belzec was the laboratory.
1732
02:36:32,841 --> 02:36:37,261
Wirth was camp commandant.
1733
02:36:38,597 --> 02:36:43,267
He tried everything imaginable there.
1734
02:36:44,269 --> 02:36:47,772
He got off on the wrong foot.
1735
02:36:47,898 --> 02:36:49,857
The pits were overflowing,
1736
02:36:49,983 --> 02:36:55,696
and the cesspool seeped out
in front of the SS mess hall.
1737
02:36:55,823 --> 02:36:57,490
It stank...
1738
02:36:58,492 --> 02:37:01,911
in front of the mess-hall,
in front of their barracks.
1739
02:37:02,037 --> 02:37:04,872
- Were you at Belzec?
- No.
1740
02:37:05,499 --> 02:37:08,543
Wirth with his own men.
1741
02:37:09,169 --> 02:37:12,130
With Franz, with Oberhauser
1742
02:37:12,714 --> 02:37:14,424
and Hackenhold,
1743
02:37:14,550 --> 02:37:16,551
he tried everything there.
1744
02:37:17,553 --> 02:37:23,850
Those three had to put the bodies
in the pits themselves
1745
02:37:24,893 --> 02:37:30,773
so that Wirth could see
how much space he needed.
1746
02:37:31,775 --> 02:37:35,236
And when they rebelled...
1747
02:37:35,362 --> 02:37:36,529
Franz refused.
1748
02:37:36,655 --> 02:37:39,615
Wirth beat Franz with a whip.
1749
02:37:39,741 --> 02:37:42,452
He whipped Hackenhold, too.
You see?
1750
02:37:42,578 --> 02:37:44,412
- Kurt Franz?
- Kurt Franz.
1751
02:37:46,707 --> 02:37:48,374
That's how Wirth was.
1752
02:37:48,500 --> 02:37:52,128
Then,
with that experience behind him,
1753
02:37:53,547 --> 02:37:55,089
he came to Treblinka.
1754
02:37:55,924 --> 02:37:57,925
(People chatting in German)
1755
02:38:24,745 --> 02:38:26,746
(Glasses clinking)
1756
02:39:29,935 --> 02:39:32,186
(Woman speaks German)
1757
02:39:34,982 --> 02:39:42,029
(Lanzmann) Excuse me. How many
quarts of beer a day do you sell?
1758
02:39:44,825 --> 02:39:47,076
You can't tell me?
1759
02:39:49,204 --> 02:39:53,082
(Man) I'd rather not.
I have my reasons.
1760
02:39:53,208 --> 02:39:55,418
- But why not?
- Yes.
1761
02:39:55,544 --> 02:39:57,670
(Man) Two Pilsners.
1762
02:39:58,130 --> 02:39:59,547
Yes.
1763
02:40:01,842 --> 02:40:08,139
(Lanzmann) How many quarts
of beer a day do you sell?
1764
02:40:10,225 --> 02:40:12,810
- Go on, tell him.
- Tell him what?
1765
02:40:12,936 --> 02:40:16,230
Just tell him approximately.
1766
02:40:16,356 --> 02:40:19,775
How many quarts of beer a day
do you sell?
1767
02:40:19,901 --> 02:40:20,985
400, 500 quarts.
1768
02:40:21,111 --> 02:40:23,738
- What?
- 400, 500 quarts.
1769
02:40:24,615 --> 02:40:25,656
Here.
1770
02:40:25,782 --> 02:40:27,783
That's a lot.
1771
02:40:27,909 --> 02:40:30,286
(Indistinct German)
1772
02:40:34,291 --> 02:40:37,168
Have you worked here long?
1773
02:40:38,629 --> 02:40:42,298
- Around 20 years.
- 20 years?
1774
02:40:42,424 --> 02:40:43,424
Yes.
1775
02:40:43,467 --> 02:40:46,636
- Why are you hiding...?
- I have my reasons.
1776
02:40:46,762 --> 02:40:50,181
- ...your face?
- I have my reasons.
1777
02:40:50,307 --> 02:40:52,224
What reasons?
1778
02:40:54,227 --> 02:40:57,396
- Never mind.
- Why not?
1779
02:41:10,702 --> 02:41:12,870
(Lanzmann)
Do you recognise this man?
1780
02:41:15,415 --> 02:41:16,916
No?
1781
02:41:17,042 --> 02:41:18,793
Christian Wirth?
1782
02:41:18,919 --> 02:41:20,711
Mr. Oberhauser.
1783
02:41:21,213 --> 02:41:23,130
Do you remember Belzec?
1784
02:41:24,424 --> 02:41:27,051
No memories of Belzec?
1785
02:41:27,886 --> 02:41:33,015
No?
1786
02:41:37,104 --> 02:41:42,024
Of the overflowing graves?
1787
02:41:53,078 --> 02:41:55,037
You don't remember?
1788
02:42:01,211 --> 02:42:04,255
MUNICH
1789
02:42:15,100 --> 02:42:17,643
WUPPERTAL
ANTON SPIESS
1790
02:42:17,769 --> 02:42:22,022
GERMAN STATE PROSECUTOR AT
TREBLINKA TRIAL, FRANKFURT 1960
1791
02:42:27,612 --> 02:42:32,783
(Spiess in German) When the Action
it selffirst got under way,
1792
02:42:32,909 --> 02:42:35,953
it was almost totally improvised.
1793
02:42:39,124 --> 02:42:43,627
At Treblinka, for example,
1794
02:42:43,754 --> 02:42:48,799
the commandant, Dr. Eberl,
let more trains come in
1795
02:42:48,925 --> 02:42:53,512
than the camp could handle.
1796
02:42:54,139 --> 02:42:56,182
It was a disaster!
1797
02:42:56,308 --> 02:42:58,434
Mountains of corpses!
1798
02:42:59,019 --> 02:43:03,898
Word of this foul-up
1799
02:43:04,024 --> 02:43:08,068
reached the head
of the Reinhard Action,
1800
02:43:08,195 --> 02:43:11,697
Odilo Globocznik, in Lublin.
1801
02:43:11,823 --> 02:43:14,575
He went to Treblinka
1802
02:43:14,701 --> 02:43:19,538
to see what was happening.
1803
02:43:19,664 --> 02:43:23,709
There's a very concrete
account of the trip
1804
02:43:23,835 --> 02:43:27,755
by his former driver, Oberhauser.
1805
02:43:27,881 --> 02:43:31,008
Globocznik arrived
on a hot day in August.
1806
02:43:31,134 --> 02:43:36,180
The camp was permeated
1807
02:43:37,182 --> 02:43:40,935
with the stench of rotting flesh.
1808
02:43:41,061 --> 02:43:47,858
Globocznik didn't even bother
to enter the camp.
1809
02:43:47,984 --> 02:43:50,820
He stopped here,
before the commandant's office,
1810
02:43:50,946 --> 02:43:52,988
sent for Dr. Eberl
1811
02:43:53,114 --> 02:43:57,284
and greeted him with these words,
1812
02:43:57,410 --> 02:44:01,705
"How dare you accept
so many every day
1813
02:44:01,832 --> 02:44:04,792
"when you can only process 3,000?"
1814
02:44:12,884 --> 02:44:15,678
Operations were suspended,
1815
02:44:16,304 --> 02:44:19,807
Eberl was transferred and Wirth came,
1816
02:44:21,101 --> 02:44:23,853
followed immediately by Stangl,
1817
02:44:25,146 --> 02:44:29,316
and the camp was
completely reorganised.
1818
02:44:39,035 --> 02:44:43,122
The Reinhard Action covered
three extermination camps:
1819
02:44:43,248 --> 02:44:47,042
Treblinka, Sobibor and Belzec.
1820
02:44:47,168 --> 02:44:51,964
There's also talk of three
death camps on the Bug River,
1821
02:44:52,090 --> 02:44:56,302
for they were all located
on or near the Bug.
1822
02:45:00,640 --> 02:45:04,518
The gas chambers
were the heart of the camp.
1823
02:45:06,479 --> 02:45:09,231
They were built first,
1824
02:45:09,357 --> 02:45:13,027
in the woods, or in a field,
as at Treblinka.
1825
02:45:13,695 --> 02:45:18,699
The gas chambers were
the only stone buildings.
1826
02:45:19,492 --> 02:45:23,037
All the others were wooden sheds.
1827
02:45:23,538 --> 02:45:27,041
These camps weren't built to last.
1828
02:45:28,376 --> 02:45:33,088
Himmler was in a hurry
to begin the 'final solution'.
1829
02:45:33,214 --> 02:45:37,468
The Germans had to capitalise
on their eastward advance
1830
02:45:37,594 --> 02:45:39,803
and use this remote back-country
1831
02:45:39,930 --> 02:45:47,311
to carry out their mass murder
as secretly as possible.
1832
02:45:52,233 --> 02:45:54,777
So at first, they couldn't
manage the perfection
1833
02:45:54,903 --> 02:45:57,988
they achieved three months later.
1834
02:46:09,125 --> 02:46:11,126
(Piwonski speaks Polish)
1835
02:46:15,006 --> 02:46:17,341
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in French)
Near the end of March 1942...
1836
02:46:17,467 --> 02:46:20,344
(Piwonski continues)
1837
02:46:24,057 --> 02:46:28,102
...sizeable groups of Jews
were herded here,
1838
02:46:28,228 --> 02:46:30,354
groups of 50 to 100 people.
1839
02:46:31,773 --> 02:46:33,607
(Piwonski continues)
1840
02:46:35,819 --> 02:46:37,903
Several trains arrived...
1841
02:46:45,161 --> 02:46:49,123
...with sections of barracks,
with posts, barbed wire, bricks...
1842
02:46:56,548 --> 02:47:00,426
...and construction
of the camp as such began.
1843
02:47:02,012 --> 02:47:04,346
(Train whistle blows)
1844
02:47:06,933 --> 02:47:09,935
(Piwonski continues in Polish)
1845
02:47:12,147 --> 02:47:14,857
(Interpreter)
The Jews unloaded these cars...
1846
02:47:19,279 --> 02:47:22,614
...and carted the sections
of barracks to the camp.
1847
02:47:31,791 --> 02:47:35,544
The Germans made them
work extremely fast.
1848
02:47:46,806 --> 02:47:49,892
When we saw the pace
they worked at...
1849
02:47:58,693 --> 02:48:00,903
It was extremely brutal.
1850
02:48:09,579 --> 02:48:13,916
When we saw the complex being built,
and the fence,
1851
02:48:14,042 --> 02:48:17,294
which, after all,
enclosed a vast space...
1852
02:48:17,420 --> 02:48:19,421
(Piwonski continues)
1853
02:48:25,178 --> 02:48:29,181
...we realised that
what the Germans were building
1854
02:48:29,307 --> 02:48:31,600
wasn't meant to aid mankind.
1855
02:48:34,813 --> 02:48:36,355
(Birds chirping)
1856
02:48:36,481 --> 02:48:38,482
(Piwonski continues)
1857
02:48:42,278 --> 02:48:44,655
(Interpreter) Early in June...
1858
02:48:51,621 --> 02:48:53,539
...the first convoy arrived.
1859
02:48:57,377 --> 02:48:59,586
I'd say there were over 40 cars.
1860
02:49:05,927 --> 02:49:09,471
With the convoy were SS men
in black uniforms.
1861
02:49:14,185 --> 02:49:17,938
It happened one afternoon.
He had just finished work.
1862
02:49:18,064 --> 02:49:20,149
JAN PIWONSKI
1863
02:49:22,735 --> 02:49:26,029
But he got on his bicycle and went home.
1864
02:49:27,115 --> 02:49:28,740
(Lanzmann) Why?
1865
02:49:40,587 --> 02:49:42,838
I merely thought
1866
02:49:42,964 --> 02:49:46,967
that these people
had come to build the camp,
1867
02:49:47,093 --> 02:49:49,761
as the others had before them.
1868
02:49:51,472 --> 02:49:53,098
That convoy...
1869
02:49:54,642 --> 02:49:58,103
...there was no way
of knowing that it was...
1870
02:50:02,108 --> 02:50:04,276
...the first earmarked
for extermination.
1871
02:50:05,695 --> 02:50:11,158
And besides... he couldn't
have known that Sobibor...
1872
02:50:11,284 --> 02:50:13,160
(Piwonski continues)
1873
02:50:13,286 --> 02:50:17,956
...would be a place for the mass
extermination of the Jews.
1874
02:50:28,218 --> 02:50:32,846
The next morning,
when I came here to work,
1875
02:50:32,972 --> 02:50:37,017
the station was absolutely silent.
1876
02:51:01,668 --> 02:51:06,046
And we realised,
1877
02:51:06,172 --> 02:51:11,927
after talking with the Poles
who worked at the station here...
1878
02:51:13,638 --> 02:51:18,350
...that something utterly
incomprehensible had happened.
1879
02:51:24,482 --> 02:51:27,317
First of all, when the camp
was being built...
1880
02:51:33,491 --> 02:51:35,742
...there were orders
shouted in German...
1881
02:51:36,202 --> 02:51:37,911
...there were screams...
1882
02:51:39,122 --> 02:51:42,874
...Jews were working at the run,
there were shots,
1883
02:51:43,710 --> 02:51:46,837
and here there was that silence...
1884
02:51:52,176 --> 02:51:54,219
No work crews...
1885
02:51:57,724 --> 02:51:59,891
...a really total silence.
1886
02:52:08,109 --> 02:52:11,987
40 cars had arrived,
and then... nothing.
1887
02:52:12,113 --> 02:52:14,906
It was all very strange.
1888
02:52:15,742 --> 02:52:18,285
(Lanzmann) It was the silence
that tipped them off?
1889
02:52:18,411 --> 02:52:19,870
(Interpreter) That's right.
1890
02:52:19,996 --> 02:52:22,664
Can he describe that silence?
1891
02:52:22,790 --> 02:52:24,458
(Piwonski speaks Polish)
1892
02:52:24,584 --> 02:52:27,419
It was a silence.
1893
02:52:27,545 --> 02:52:31,631
Nothing was going on in the camp.
You heard nothing.
1894
02:52:31,758 --> 02:52:33,592
Nothing moved.
1895
02:52:34,218 --> 02:52:36,219
(Piwonski continues)
1896
02:52:40,475 --> 02:52:43,393
So then they began to wonder...
1897
02:52:46,898 --> 02:52:50,192
"Where have they put
those Jews?"
1898
02:52:54,906 --> 02:52:59,785
(Muller in German)
Cell 13, Block 11 at Auschwitz 1,
1899
02:52:59,911 --> 02:53:03,330
is where
the Special Work Detail was held.
1900
02:53:05,416 --> 02:53:09,002
The cell was underground, isolated.
1901
02:53:09,962 --> 02:53:13,382
For we were...
1902
02:53:14,926 --> 02:53:16,968
..."bearers of secrets".
1903
02:53:18,513 --> 02:53:20,889
We were reprieved dead men.
1904
02:53:22,892 --> 02:53:26,103
We weren't allowed to talk to anyone,
1905
02:53:26,229 --> 02:53:29,022
or contact any prisoner,
1906
02:53:29,565 --> 02:53:32,609
even the SS.
1907
02:53:32,735 --> 02:53:36,947
Only those in charge of the "Action."
1908
02:53:40,952 --> 02:53:43,078
There was a window.
1909
02:53:43,913 --> 02:53:47,541
We heard what happened
in the courtyard.
1910
02:53:49,252 --> 02:53:51,503
The executions,
1911
02:53:52,547 --> 02:53:55,799
the victims' cries, the screams,
1912
02:53:56,509 --> 02:53:58,718
but we couldn't see anything.
1913
02:54:04,350 --> 02:54:06,935
This went on for several days.
1914
02:54:08,312 --> 02:54:12,399
One night an SS man came
1915
02:54:13,317 --> 02:54:15,527
from the political section.
1916
02:54:17,321 --> 02:54:23,034
It was around 4:00am.
1917
02:54:27,248 --> 02:54:32,544
The whole camp was still asleep.
1918
02:54:35,089 --> 02:54:37,966
There wasn't a sound in the camp.
1919
02:54:46,476 --> 02:54:51,730
We were again taken out of our cell
1920
02:54:53,774 --> 02:54:56,651
and led to the crematorium.
1921
02:55:02,033 --> 02:55:05,869
There, for the first time,
I saw the procedure used
1922
02:55:05,995 --> 02:55:10,123
with those who came in alive.
1923
02:55:11,250 --> 02:55:13,376
We were lined up against a wall
1924
02:55:13,503 --> 02:55:17,380
and told, "No one may talk
to those people."
1925
02:55:21,344 --> 02:55:26,431
Suddenly, the wooden door
to the crematorium courtyard opened,
1926
02:55:26,557 --> 02:55:32,312
and 250 to 300 people filed in,
1927
02:55:32,438 --> 02:55:35,732
old people, and women.
1928
02:55:38,069 --> 02:55:41,863
They carried bundles,
wore the Star of David.
1929
02:55:43,866 --> 02:55:46,535
Even from a distance, I could tell
1930
02:55:46,661 --> 02:55:50,205
that they were Polish Jews,
1931
02:55:51,791 --> 02:55:55,460
probably from Upper Silesia,
1932
02:55:55,586 --> 02:56:00,590
from the Sosnowiec ghetto,
some 20 miles from Auschwitz.
1933
02:56:03,010 --> 02:56:04,386
FILIP MULLER
1934
02:56:04,512 --> 02:56:09,516
I caught some of the things
they said.
1935
02:56:10,643 --> 02:56:12,435
I heard "fachowitz,"
1936
02:56:12,562 --> 02:56:15,272
meaning "skilled worker."
1937
02:56:15,398 --> 02:56:18,316
And "Malach-ha-Mavis,"
1938
02:56:19,068 --> 02:56:22,112
which means
"the angel of death" in Yiddish.
1939
02:56:24,907 --> 02:56:28,201
Also, "harginnen":
"They're going to kill us."
1940
02:56:31,664 --> 02:56:35,709
From what I could hear,
1941
02:56:35,835 --> 02:56:40,213
I clearly understood
the struggle going on inside them.
1942
02:56:40,339 --> 02:56:42,549
Sometimes they spoke of work
1943
02:56:42,675 --> 02:56:47,220
probably hoping
that they'd be put to work.
1944
02:56:48,389 --> 02:56:52,726
Or they spoke of "Malach-ha-Mavis,"
the angel of death.
1945
02:56:54,312 --> 02:56:58,565
The conflicting words echoed
the conflict in their feelings.
1946
02:56:59,317 --> 02:57:02,861
Then a sudden silence
1947
02:57:03,404 --> 02:57:07,657
fell over those gathered
in the crematorium courtyard.
1948
02:57:10,286 --> 02:57:13,413
All eyes converged
1949
02:57:14,165 --> 02:57:17,709
on the flat roof of the crematorium.
1950
02:57:21,422 --> 02:57:23,465
Who was standing there?
1951
02:57:23,591 --> 02:57:25,925
Aumeyer of the SS,
1952
02:57:26,844 --> 02:57:29,679
Grabner,
the head of the political section,
1953
02:57:30,264 --> 02:57:32,974
and Hossler, the SS officer.
1954
02:57:34,101 --> 02:57:37,479
Aumeyer addressed the crowd,
1955
02:57:39,440 --> 02:57:43,026
"You're here to work,
1956
02:57:43,152 --> 02:57:48,073
"for our soldiers fighting at the front.
1957
02:57:50,326 --> 02:57:53,286
"Those who can work
will be all right."
1958
02:57:54,497 --> 02:58:02,045
It was obvious that
hope flared in those people.
1959
02:58:02,171 --> 02:58:06,174
You could feel it clearly.
1960
02:58:07,426 --> 02:58:11,054
The executioners had got
past the first obstacle.
1961
02:58:12,056 --> 02:58:15,517
They saw it was succeeding.
1962
02:58:17,144 --> 02:58:19,479
Then Grabner spoke up,
1963
02:58:20,815 --> 02:58:25,485
"We need masons, electricians,
1964
02:58:26,153 --> 02:58:28,363
"all the trades."
1965
02:58:29,323 --> 02:58:33,660
Next, Hossler took over.
1966
02:58:34,829 --> 02:58:39,457
He pointed to a short man in the crowd.
1967
02:58:39,583 --> 02:58:41,626
I can still see him.
1968
02:58:41,752 --> 02:58:43,545
"What's your trade?"
1969
02:58:43,671 --> 02:58:48,508
The man said,
"Mr. Officer, I'm a tailor."
1970
02:58:49,301 --> 02:58:52,887
"A tailor? What kind of tailor?"
1971
02:58:54,098 --> 02:58:58,351
"A men's...
No, for both men and women."
1972
02:58:58,477 --> 02:59:03,732
"Wonderful! We need people
like you in our workshops."
1973
02:59:05,901 --> 02:59:08,903
Then he questioned a woman,
1974
02:59:09,655 --> 02:59:12,323
"What's your trade?"
1975
02:59:12,950 --> 02:59:15,452
"Nurse," she replied.
1976
02:59:15,578 --> 02:59:22,292
"Splendid! We need nurses
in our hospitals for our soldiers.
1977
02:59:22,418 --> 02:59:26,796
"We need all of you!
But first, undress.
1978
02:59:27,673 --> 02:59:30,675
"You must be disinfected.
1979
02:59:30,801 --> 02:59:34,053
"We want you healthy."
1980
02:59:36,557 --> 02:59:39,934
I could see the people were calmer,
1981
02:59:40,561 --> 02:59:44,814
reassured by what they'd heard,
1982
02:59:45,524 --> 02:59:48,651
and they began to undress.
1983
02:59:50,529 --> 02:59:52,989
Even if they still had their doubts,
1984
02:59:53,824 --> 02:59:56,826
if you want to live, you must hope.
1985
03:00:02,458 --> 03:00:06,044
Their clothing remained
in the courtyard,
1986
03:00:06,879 --> 03:00:09,547
scattered everywhere.
1987
03:00:10,758 --> 03:00:13,384
Aumeyer was beaming,
1988
03:00:13,511 --> 03:00:17,430
very proud of how he'd handled things.
1989
03:00:17,556 --> 03:00:22,060
He turned to some of the SS men
and told them,
1990
03:00:22,186 --> 03:00:25,355
"You see? That's the way to do it!"
1991
03:00:26,816 --> 03:00:29,067
By this device,
1992
03:00:29,193 --> 03:00:34,614
a great leap forward had been made:
1993
03:00:35,866 --> 03:00:39,244
Now the clothing could be used.
1994
03:00:43,165 --> 03:00:44,791
RAUL HILBERG
HISTORIAN
1995
03:00:44,917 --> 03:00:48,294
In all of my work, I have never begun
by asking the big questions,
1996
03:00:48,420 --> 03:00:51,881
because I was always afraid that
I would come up with small answers,
1997
03:00:52,007 --> 03:00:56,719
and I have preferred, therefore,
to address these things,
1998
03:00:56,846 --> 03:00:59,514
which are minutiae or detail,
1999
03:00:59,640 --> 03:01:03,518
in order that I might then
be able to put together
2000
03:01:03,644 --> 03:01:05,353
in a gestalt,
2001
03:01:05,479 --> 03:01:07,230
a picture, which...
2002
03:01:08,482 --> 03:01:11,109
...if not an explanation,
is at least a description,
2003
03:01:11,235 --> 03:01:15,655
a more full description,
of what transpired.
2004
03:01:15,781 --> 03:01:21,578
And, in that sense, I look also upon
the bureaucratic destruction process,
2005
03:01:21,704 --> 03:01:23,538
for this is what it was,
2006
03:01:23,664 --> 03:01:28,209
as a series of minute steps
taken in logical order
2007
03:01:28,335 --> 03:01:31,546
and relying above all,
as much as possible,
2008
03:01:31,672 --> 03:01:35,133
on experience, past experience.
2009
03:01:35,259 --> 03:01:39,429
This goes not only, incidentally,
for the administrative steps taken,
2010
03:01:39,555 --> 03:01:42,223
but also the psychological arguments,
2011
03:01:42,349 --> 03:01:44,684
even the propaganda.
2012
03:01:44,810 --> 03:01:49,230
Amazingly little was newly invented
2013
03:01:49,356 --> 03:01:54,152
until, of course, the moment came
when one had to go beyond
2014
03:01:54,278 --> 03:01:56,654
that which had already been
established by precedent,
2015
03:01:56,780 --> 03:01:58,615
and one had to gas these people,
2016
03:01:58,741 --> 03:02:02,160
or, in some sense,
annihilate them on a large scale.
2017
03:02:02,286 --> 03:02:05,914
Then, these bureaucrats
became inventors.
2018
03:02:06,749 --> 03:02:09,626
But like all inventors of institutions,
2019
03:02:09,752 --> 03:02:12,629
they did not copyright
or patent their achievements,
2020
03:02:12,755 --> 03:02:15,673
and they preferred obscurity.
2021
03:02:17,092 --> 03:02:20,345
(Lanzmann) What did they get
from the past, the Nazis?
2022
03:02:22,932 --> 03:02:27,602
They got the actual content
of measures which they took.
2023
03:02:27,728 --> 03:02:31,981
For example,
the barring of Jews from office,
2024
03:02:33,192 --> 03:02:36,819
the prohibition of intermarriages,
2025
03:02:37,321 --> 03:02:43,326
the employment in Jewish homes
of female persons under the age of45,
2026
03:02:45,120 --> 03:02:49,999
the various marking decrees,
especially the Jewish star,
2027
03:02:51,418 --> 03:02:53,503
the compulsory ghetto,
2028
03:02:55,381 --> 03:02:59,175
the voidance of any will
executed by a Jew
2029
03:02:59,301 --> 03:03:01,928
that might work in such a way
2030
03:03:02,054 --> 03:03:07,517
as to prevent inheritance of his property
by someone who was a Christian.
2031
03:03:08,602 --> 03:03:13,231
Many such measures
had been worked out
2032
03:03:13,357 --> 03:03:16,985
over the course of more
than a thousand years
2033
03:03:18,362 --> 03:03:22,073
by authorities of the Church
2034
03:03:22,199 --> 03:03:27,537
and by secular governments
that followed in those footsteps.
2035
03:03:28,455 --> 03:03:30,415
And the experience
gathered over that time
2036
03:03:30,541 --> 03:03:33,543
became a reservoir
that could be used
2037
03:03:33,669 --> 03:03:36,879
and which indeed was used
to an amazing extent.
2038
03:03:38,841 --> 03:03:40,842
You mean that one can compare...
2039
03:03:40,968 --> 03:03:42,885
- One can actually compare...
- Each measure?
2040
03:03:43,012 --> 03:03:50,560
One can compare a rather large number
of German laws and decrees
2041
03:03:50,686 --> 03:03:53,062
with their counterparts in the past
2042
03:03:53,605 --> 03:03:56,107
and find complete parallels,
2043
03:03:56,233 --> 03:03:57,942
even in detail,
2044
03:03:59,111 --> 03:04:01,612
as if they were a memory
2045
03:04:02,364 --> 03:04:06,909
which automatically extended
to the period of 1933
2046
03:04:07,036 --> 03:04:11,748
and 1935 and 1939 and beyond.
2047
03:04:12,583 --> 03:04:15,668
In such respect,
they didn't invent anything?
2048
03:04:15,794 --> 03:04:17,545
They invented very little,
2049
03:04:17,671 --> 03:04:20,131
and they did not invent
the portrait of the Jew,
2050
03:04:20,257 --> 03:04:22,633
which also was taken over,
lock, stock and barrel,
2051
03:04:22,760 --> 03:04:26,512
from writings going back
to the 16th century.
2052
03:04:26,638 --> 03:04:28,389
So, even the propaganda,
2053
03:04:28,515 --> 03:04:31,684
the realm of the imagination
and invention,
2054
03:04:31,810 --> 03:04:34,479
even there, they were
remarkably in the footsteps
2055
03:04:34,605 --> 03:04:36,606
of those who preceded them,
2056
03:04:36,732 --> 03:04:40,568
from Martin Luther
to the 19th century.
2057
03:04:42,362 --> 03:04:44,697
And, here again,
they were not inventive.
2058
03:04:45,157 --> 03:04:47,992
They had to become inventive
with the 'final solution'.
2059
03:04:48,118 --> 03:04:49,994
That was their great invention,
2060
03:04:50,120 --> 03:04:53,414
and that is what made
this entire process different
2061
03:04:53,540 --> 03:04:57,418
from all others that
had preceded that event.
2062
03:04:58,796 --> 03:05:00,797
And, in this respect,
2063
03:05:02,257 --> 03:05:08,304
what transpired when
the final solution was... adopted,
2064
03:05:08,430 --> 03:05:10,848
or, to be more precise,
2065
03:05:11,683 --> 03:05:15,061
when the bureaucracy moved into it,
2066
03:05:17,022 --> 03:05:19,357
was a turning point in history.
2067
03:05:22,444 --> 03:05:28,825
Even here, I would suggest
a logical progression,
2068
03:05:30,035 --> 03:05:32,995
one which came to fruition
2069
03:05:34,373 --> 03:05:37,125
in what might be called closure,
2070
03:05:38,961 --> 03:05:41,337
because, from the earliest days,
2071
03:05:41,463 --> 03:05:45,341
from the fourth century,
fifth century, sixth century,
2072
03:05:46,343 --> 03:05:50,555
the missionaries of Christianity
had said, in effect, to the Jews,
2073
03:05:50,681 --> 03:05:54,934
"You may not live among us
as Jews."
2074
03:05:55,853 --> 03:05:58,396
The secular rulers who followed them,
2075
03:05:58,897 --> 03:06:03,651
from the late Middle Ages,
had then decided,
2076
03:06:03,777 --> 03:06:06,237
"You may not live among us,"
2077
03:06:07,030 --> 03:06:09,574
and the Nazis finally decreed,
2078
03:06:10,033 --> 03:06:11,742
"You may not live."
2079
03:06:13,912 --> 03:06:18,583
This means that the three steps were...
The first one was conversion.
2080
03:06:19,168 --> 03:06:22,378
- Conversion, followed by...
- The second one, ghettoisation.
2081
03:06:22,504 --> 03:06:23,921
- Expulsion.
- Or expulsion.
2082
03:06:24,047 --> 03:06:25,882
Expulsion.
2083
03:06:26,008 --> 03:06:28,885
And the third was
the territorial solution,
2084
03:06:30,053 --> 03:06:33,014
which was, of course,
the solution carried out
2085
03:06:33,140 --> 03:06:35,141
within the territories
under German command,
2086
03:06:35,267 --> 03:06:37,435
excluding emigration:
2087
03:06:37,561 --> 03:06:39,312
death...
2088
03:06:40,522 --> 03:06:42,315
The final solution.
2089
03:06:42,900 --> 03:06:46,527
And the "final solution,"
you see, is really final,
2090
03:06:47,237 --> 03:06:53,326
because people who are converted
can yet be, in secret, Jews,
2091
03:06:53,452 --> 03:06:57,038
people who are expelled
can yet return,
2092
03:06:57,706 --> 03:07:02,210
but people who are dead
will not reappear.
2093
03:07:05,881 --> 03:07:12,553
In such a respect, in the last stage,
they were really pioneers and inventors?
2094
03:07:13,597 --> 03:07:17,266
This was something unprecedented,
and this was something new.
2095
03:07:25,067 --> 03:07:27,360
How can one figure...
2096
03:07:27,486 --> 03:07:32,657
give some ideas about
the complete newness of this,
2097
03:07:32,783 --> 03:07:36,202
because I think that it was new
for themselves too?
2098
03:07:37,079 --> 03:07:38,496
Yes, it was new,
2099
03:07:38,622 --> 03:07:46,087
and this... I think, for this reason
that one cannot find a specific document,
2100
03:07:46,213 --> 03:07:50,007
a specific plan, outline or blueprint
2101
03:07:50,634 --> 03:07:54,011
which states,
"Now, the Jews will be killed."
2102
03:07:54,846 --> 03:07:58,391
Everything is left to inference
from general words.
2103
03:07:58,517 --> 03:08:01,060
- Inference from...?
- General wording.
2104
03:08:01,186 --> 03:08:04,563
The very wording "final solution"
or "total solution",
2105
03:08:04,690 --> 03:08:06,899
or "territorial solution",
2106
03:08:07,526 --> 03:08:11,529
leaves something to the bureaucrat
that he must infer.
2107
03:08:11,655 --> 03:08:13,614
He cannot read that document.
2108
03:08:13,740 --> 03:08:17,451
One cannot even read
Goring's famous letter to Heydrich,
2109
03:08:17,577 --> 03:08:19,620
at the end of July 1941,
2110
03:08:19,746 --> 03:08:23,541
charging him in two paragraphs
to proceed with the final solution.
2111
03:08:23,667 --> 03:08:27,753
And taking that document aside,
everything is clarified?
2112
03:08:27,879 --> 03:08:29,422
Far from it.
2113
03:08:29,548 --> 03:08:30,881
- Far from it?
- Far from it.
2114
03:08:31,008 --> 03:08:33,926
It was an authorisation to invent.
2115
03:08:34,052 --> 03:08:36,804
It was an authorisation
to begin something
2116
03:08:36,930 --> 03:08:41,183
that was not as yet
capable of being put into words.
2117
03:08:48,859 --> 03:08:51,444
I think it...
I think of it that way.
2118
03:08:52,404 --> 03:08:55,656
It was a case for every agency,
as a matter off act.
2119
03:08:55,782 --> 03:08:57,575
Absolutely, for every agency.
2120
03:08:57,701 --> 03:09:02,121
In every aspect of this operation,
invention was necessary.
2121
03:09:03,332 --> 03:09:05,458
Certainly at this point,
2122
03:09:05,584 --> 03:09:08,753
because every problem
was unprecedented:
2123
03:09:09,796 --> 03:09:13,174
not just how to kill the Jews, but what
to do with their property thereafter,
2124
03:09:13,300 --> 03:09:14,717
and, not only that,
2125
03:09:14,843 --> 03:09:16,385
but how to deal with the problem
2126
03:09:16,511 --> 03:09:19,722
of not letting the world know
what had happened.
2127
03:09:19,848 --> 03:09:23,434
All of these multitudes
of problems were new.
2128
03:10:40,595 --> 03:10:42,430
(Children shouting)
2129
03:11:01,700 --> 03:11:03,617
(Van door closes)
2130
03:11:22,471 --> 03:11:25,598
FRANZ SCHALLING
2131
03:11:28,727 --> 03:11:33,898
(Lanzmann in German)
First, explain to me...
2132
03:11:34,357 --> 03:11:38,777
how you came to Kulmhof,
to Chelmno.
2133
03:11:39,571 --> 03:11:41,864
You were at Lodz, right?
2134
03:11:41,990 --> 03:11:43,782
- (Schalling) In Lodz, yes.
- Litzmannstadt?
2135
03:11:43,909 --> 03:11:46,118
(Schalling)
In Litzmannstadt, yes.
2136
03:11:46,244 --> 03:11:50,748
We were on permanent guard duty.
2137
03:11:51,583 --> 03:11:54,210
Protecting military objectives: mills,
2138
03:11:54,711 --> 03:11:58,339
the roads,
when Hitler went to East Prussia.
2139
03:11:59,049 --> 03:12:02,134
It was dreary, and we were told,
2140
03:12:02,260 --> 03:12:07,723
"We're looking for men who want
to break out of this routine."
2141
03:12:07,849 --> 03:12:10,017
So we volunteered.
2142
03:12:11,645 --> 03:12:14,355
We were issued winter uniforms,
2143
03:12:14,814 --> 03:12:19,235
overcoats, fur hats, fur-lined boots,
2144
03:12:20,111 --> 03:12:24,657
and 2 or 3 days later,
we were told, "We're off!"
2145
03:12:25,659 --> 03:12:29,203
We were put aboard 2 or 3 trucks...
I don't know...
2146
03:12:29,329 --> 03:12:33,582
They had benches,
2147
03:12:34,251 --> 03:12:36,210
and we rode and rode.
2148
03:12:36,336 --> 03:12:38,837
Finally we arrived.
2149
03:12:40,674 --> 03:12:44,093
The place was crawling
with SS men and police.
2150
03:12:44,219 --> 03:12:48,430
Our first question was,
"What goes on here?"
2151
03:12:48,557 --> 03:12:51,475
They said, "You'll find out!"
2152
03:12:51,601 --> 03:12:54,562
- (Lanzmann) You'll find out?
- You'll find out.
2153
03:12:54,688 --> 03:12:56,772
(Lanzmann) Yes.
2154
03:12:56,898 --> 03:13:00,192
- You weren't in the SS, you were...
- Police.
2155
03:13:00,318 --> 03:13:03,988
- Which police?
- Security guards.
2156
03:13:04,781 --> 03:13:08,993
We were ordered to report
to the Deutsche Haus,
2157
03:13:09,119 --> 03:13:13,122
the only big stone building
in the village.
2158
03:13:13,248 --> 03:13:14,248
Yes.
2159
03:13:14,374 --> 03:13:16,333
We were taken into it.
2160
03:13:17,377 --> 03:13:19,670
An SS man immediately told us,
2161
03:13:19,796 --> 03:13:22,965
"This is a top secret mission."
2162
03:13:23,091 --> 03:13:25,426
- Secret?
- "A top secret mission."
2163
03:13:25,552 --> 03:13:27,344
- Yes.
- "Sign this!"
2164
03:13:27,470 --> 03:13:29,430
We each had to sign.
2165
03:13:29,556 --> 03:13:33,350
There was a form ready for each of us.
2166
03:13:36,313 --> 03:13:38,564
What did it say?
2167
03:13:38,690 --> 03:13:41,859
It was a pledge of secrecy.
2168
03:13:41,985 --> 03:13:44,695
We never even got to read it through.
2169
03:13:44,821 --> 03:13:47,072
You had to take an oath?
2170
03:13:47,198 --> 03:13:50,200
- No, just sign...
- Yes.
2171
03:13:50,327 --> 03:13:53,871
Promising to shut up
about whatever we'd see.
2172
03:13:53,997 --> 03:13:55,581
- Shut up?
- Not say a word.
2173
03:13:55,707 --> 03:13:57,166
Yes.
2174
03:13:57,292 --> 03:14:01,420
After we'd signed, we were told,
2175
03:14:02,005 --> 03:14:03,756
"Final solution to the Jewish question."
2176
03:14:03,882 --> 03:14:07,843
We didn't understand what that meant.
2177
03:14:07,969 --> 03:14:09,762
So someone said...?
2178
03:14:09,888 --> 03:14:12,973
He told us what was going
to happen there.
2179
03:14:13,099 --> 03:14:16,894
Someone said, "The final solution
to the Jewish question."
2180
03:14:17,020 --> 03:14:21,315
You'd be assigned
to the "final solution"?
2181
03:14:21,441 --> 03:14:24,193
Yes, but what did that mean?
2182
03:14:24,319 --> 03:14:26,487
We'd never heard that before.
2183
03:14:26,613 --> 03:14:28,614
So it was explained to us.
2184
03:14:28,740 --> 03:14:30,908
Just when was this?
2185
03:14:31,034 --> 03:14:33,577
Let's see... when was it...?
2186
03:14:34,913 --> 03:14:37,915
In the winter of 1941-42.
2187
03:14:44,297 --> 03:14:47,424
Then we were assigned to our stations.
2188
03:14:47,550 --> 03:14:51,470
Our guard post was
at the side of the road.
2189
03:14:51,596 --> 03:14:54,348
A sentry box in front of the castle.
2190
03:14:54,808 --> 03:14:58,477
(Lanzmann)
So you were in the "castle detail"?
2191
03:15:01,314 --> 03:15:03,190
(Schalling) That's right.
2192
03:15:04,359 --> 03:15:08,320
(Lanzmann) Can you describe
what you saw?
2193
03:15:09,781 --> 03:15:12,574
We could see.
We were at the gatehouse.
2194
03:15:12,701 --> 03:15:13,784
Yes?
2195
03:15:13,910 --> 03:15:18,497
When the Jews arrived,
the way they looked,
2196
03:15:18,623 --> 03:15:23,085
half-frozen, starved, dirty,
already half-dead.
2197
03:15:23,211 --> 03:15:26,046
Old people, children.
2198
03:15:27,173 --> 03:15:32,594
Think of it! The long trip here
standing in a truck, packed in!
2199
03:15:34,222 --> 03:15:37,182
Who knows if they knew
what was in store?
2200
03:15:37,934 --> 03:15:40,310
They didn't trust anyone,
that's for sure.
2201
03:15:40,437 --> 03:15:43,647
After months in the ghetto,
you can imagine!
2202
03:15:45,066 --> 03:15:46,483
Yes?
2203
03:15:46,609 --> 03:15:49,445
I heard an SS man shout at them,
2204
03:15:49,571 --> 03:15:52,114
"You're going to be deloused
2205
03:15:52,907 --> 03:15:55,242
"and have a bath.
2206
03:15:55,744 --> 03:15:57,745
"You're going to work here."
2207
03:15:58,246 --> 03:16:01,498
The Jews consented.
2208
03:16:01,624 --> 03:16:04,918
They said,
"Yes, that's what we want to do."
2209
03:16:06,588 --> 03:16:09,006
(Lanzmann) Was the castle big?
2210
03:16:10,467 --> 03:16:13,385
Pretty big, with huge front steps.
2211
03:16:13,511 --> 03:16:18,390
The SS man stood
at the top of the steps.
2212
03:16:19,809 --> 03:16:22,519
(Lanzmann) Then what happened?
2213
03:16:22,645 --> 03:16:27,399
They were hustled into 2 or 3
big rooms on the first floor.
2214
03:16:28,026 --> 03:16:31,361
They had to undress,
give up everything:
2215
03:16:31,488 --> 03:16:33,572
rings, gold, everything.
2216
03:16:36,993 --> 03:16:40,370
(Lanzmann) How long
did the Jews stay there?
2217
03:16:40,830 --> 03:16:43,582
- Long enough to undress.
- Yes.
2218
03:16:43,708 --> 03:16:46,084
Then, stark naked,
2219
03:16:46,211 --> 03:16:50,422
they had to run down more steps
2220
03:16:51,508 --> 03:16:53,592
to an underground corridor
2221
03:16:54,677 --> 03:16:58,388
that led back up to the ramp,
where the gas van awaited them.
2222
03:17:00,225 --> 03:17:04,645
(Lanzmann) Did the Jews
enter the van willingly?
2223
03:17:06,272 --> 03:17:08,649
No, they were beaten.
2224
03:17:09,150 --> 03:17:13,153
Blows fell everywhere,
and the Jews understood.
2225
03:17:13,279 --> 03:17:15,030
They screamed.
2226
03:17:15,156 --> 03:17:17,032
It was frightful!
2227
03:17:17,784 --> 03:17:19,535
Frightful!
2228
03:17:21,621 --> 03:17:24,540
I know, because
we went down to the cellar
2229
03:17:24,666 --> 03:17:26,875
when they were all in the van.
2230
03:17:27,001 --> 03:17:32,840
We opened the cells of the work detail,
2231
03:17:32,966 --> 03:17:35,259
the Jewish workers
2232
03:17:35,385 --> 03:17:40,013
who collected the things thrown out
of the 1st-floor window into there.
2233
03:17:42,183 --> 03:17:44,601
(Lanzmann)
Describe the gas vans.
2234
03:17:45,770 --> 03:17:48,188
(Schalling) Like moving vans.
2235
03:17:48,314 --> 03:17:50,190
Very big?
2236
03:17:50,316 --> 03:17:52,901
They stretched, say,
2237
03:17:53,027 --> 03:17:55,571
from here to the window.
2238
03:17:55,697 --> 03:17:57,739
Just big trucks,
2239
03:17:57,866 --> 03:18:01,201
like moving vans, with 2 rear doors.
2240
03:18:04,038 --> 03:18:06,540
What system was used?
2241
03:18:06,666 --> 03:18:10,919
How did they kill them?
2242
03:18:11,045 --> 03:18:14,214
- With exhaust fumes.
- Exhaust fumes?
2243
03:18:14,716 --> 03:18:19,845
It went like this:
a Pole yelled, "Gas!"
2244
03:18:19,971 --> 03:18:25,225
then the driver got under the van
to hook up the pipe
2245
03:18:26,269 --> 03:18:31,315
that fed the gas into the van.
2246
03:18:31,441 --> 03:18:34,526
- Yes, but how?
- From the motor.
2247
03:18:34,652 --> 03:18:36,987
Yes, but through what?
2248
03:18:37,113 --> 03:18:39,364
A pipe... a tube.
2249
03:18:39,490 --> 03:18:42,284
He fiddled around under the truck.
2250
03:18:42,410 --> 03:18:44,620
I'm not sure how.
2251
03:18:45,705 --> 03:18:48,665
It was just exhaust gas?
2252
03:18:49,667 --> 03:18:51,376
That's all.
2253
03:18:53,087 --> 03:18:54,338
(Lanzmann) Yes.
2254
03:18:55,131 --> 03:18:57,466
Who were the drivers?
2255
03:18:59,135 --> 03:19:00,844
SS men.
2256
03:19:00,970 --> 03:19:04,097
All those men were SS.
2257
03:19:04,223 --> 03:19:07,392
Were there many of these drivers?
2258
03:19:07,518 --> 03:19:09,019
I don't know.
2259
03:19:09,145 --> 03:19:11,772
Were there 2, 3, 5, 10?
2260
03:19:12,231 --> 03:19:15,651
Not that many.
2 or 3, that's all.
2261
03:19:15,777 --> 03:19:18,195
I think there were 2 vans,
2262
03:19:18,821 --> 03:19:22,074
one big, one smaller.
2263
03:19:22,200 --> 03:19:23,700
Yes?
2264
03:19:24,202 --> 03:19:28,872
Did the driver sit
in the cabin of the van?
2265
03:19:29,374 --> 03:19:31,291
- Mrs. Uwe?
- (Woman) No.
2266
03:19:32,377 --> 03:19:36,880
He climbed into the cabin
after the doors were closed
2267
03:19:37,548 --> 03:19:39,841
and started the motor.
2268
03:19:40,468 --> 03:19:44,596
Did he race the motor?
2269
03:19:46,057 --> 03:19:48,767
I don't know.
2270
03:19:49,644 --> 03:19:54,314
Could you hear
the sound of the motor?
2271
03:19:55,274 --> 03:19:59,319
Yes, from the gate
we could hear it turn over.
2272
03:19:59,445 --> 03:20:03,448
Was it a loud noise?
2273
03:20:03,574 --> 03:20:07,577
The noise of a truck engine.
2274
03:20:07,704 --> 03:20:09,204
Yes.
2275
03:20:09,330 --> 03:20:15,168
The van was stationary
while the motor ran?
2276
03:20:16,337 --> 03:20:19,715
- That's right.
- Yes.
2277
03:20:19,841 --> 03:20:22,634
Then it started moving.
2278
03:20:23,094 --> 03:20:27,264
We opened the gate,
and it headed for the woods.
2279
03:20:27,807 --> 03:20:30,350
Were the people already dead?
2280
03:20:30,476 --> 03:20:32,436
I don't know.
2281
03:20:32,562 --> 03:20:36,398
- It was quiet. No more screams.
- No screams.
2282
03:20:36,524 --> 03:20:39,693
You couldn't hear anything
as they drove by.
2283
03:20:47,702 --> 03:20:49,953
(Podchlebnik speaks Yiddish)
2284
03:20:52,999 --> 03:20:55,751
(Interpreter ♪2 in French)
He recalls it was 1941,
2285
03:20:55,877 --> 03:20:58,253
two days before the new year.
2286
03:20:58,379 --> 03:21:00,881
(Podchlebnik continues)
2287
03:21:01,382 --> 03:21:03,967
They were routed out at night...
2288
03:21:07,221 --> 03:21:10,599
...and in the morning
they reached Chelmno.
2289
03:21:15,938 --> 03:21:19,107
There was a castle there.
2290
03:21:27,742 --> 03:21:29,951
When he entered
the castle courtyard...
2291
03:21:32,080 --> 03:21:34,664
...he knew something awful
was going on.
2292
03:21:36,209 --> 03:21:38,627
He already understood.
2293
03:21:38,753 --> 03:21:40,796
THE SITE OF THE CASTLE
2294
03:21:42,048 --> 03:21:43,882
(Podchlebnik continues)
2295
03:21:45,134 --> 03:21:48,178
They saw clothes and shoes...
2296
03:21:50,306 --> 03:21:52,307
...scattered in the courtyard.
2297
03:21:57,355 --> 03:22:00,482
Yet they were alone there.
2298
03:22:00,608 --> 03:22:03,110
He knew his parents
had been through there...
2299
03:22:04,737 --> 03:22:07,781
...and there wasn't a Jew left.
2300
03:22:11,160 --> 03:22:13,120
(Podchlebnik continues)
2301
03:22:13,246 --> 03:22:16,373
They were taken down into a cellar.
2302
03:22:20,711 --> 03:22:24,798
On a wall was written,
"No one leaves here alive."
2303
03:22:26,175 --> 03:22:28,051
Graffiti in Yiddish.
2304
03:22:29,637 --> 03:22:31,513
There were lots of names.
2305
03:22:33,766 --> 03:22:37,477
He thinks it was the Jews
from villages around Chelmno
2306
03:22:37,603 --> 03:22:41,273
who had come before him,
who had written their names.
2307
03:22:49,699 --> 03:22:52,701
- (Podchlebnik continues)
- A few days after New Year's...
2308
03:22:55,705 --> 03:22:58,748
...they heard people arrive
in a truck one morning.
2309
03:23:00,543 --> 03:23:02,711
The people were taken
out of the truck...
2310
03:23:05,214 --> 03:23:10,260
...and up to the first floor
of the castle.
2311
03:23:10,386 --> 03:23:14,598
The Germans lied,
saying they were to be deloused.
2312
03:23:20,646 --> 03:23:23,773
They were chased
down the other side...
2313
03:23:25,776 --> 03:23:27,777
...where a van was waiting.
2314
03:23:28,905 --> 03:23:31,198
(Podchlebnik continues)
2315
03:23:33,993 --> 03:23:39,331
The Germans pushed
and beat them with their weapons
2316
03:23:39,457 --> 03:23:42,167
to hustle them into the trucks faster.
2317
03:23:53,804 --> 03:23:55,639
(Podchlebnik continues)
2318
03:23:59,977 --> 03:24:03,939
He heard people praying,
"Shma Israel"...
2319
03:24:06,943 --> 03:24:10,070
...and he heard
the van's rear doors being shut.
2320
03:24:14,867 --> 03:24:17,118
Their screams were heard,
2321
03:24:17,245 --> 03:24:20,205
becoming fainter and fainter...
2322
03:24:23,125 --> 03:24:27,212
...and when there was total silence,
2323
03:24:27,338 --> 03:24:29,422
the van left.
2324
03:24:35,471 --> 03:24:37,472
(Podchlebnik continues)
2325
03:24:43,062 --> 03:24:48,066
He and the 4 others
were brought out of the cellar.
2326
03:24:48,192 --> 03:24:49,734
They went upstairs...
2327
03:24:59,453 --> 03:25:03,373
...and gathered up
the clothes remaining
2328
03:25:03,499 --> 03:25:06,001
outside the supposed baths.
2329
03:25:15,052 --> 03:25:17,804
(Lanzmann) Did he understand then
how they'd died?
2330
03:25:17,930 --> 03:25:20,849
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)
2331
03:25:20,975 --> 03:25:23,601
MICHAEL PODCHLEBNIK
2332
03:25:23,728 --> 03:25:29,482
SURVIVOR OF 1ST PERIOD
OF EXTERMINATION AT CHELMNO
2333
03:25:29,608 --> 03:25:31,609
THE CASTLE PERIOD
2334
03:25:35,197 --> 03:25:40,076
(Interpreter) Yes, first because
there had been rumours of it.
2335
03:25:40,202 --> 03:25:43,997
And when he went out,
he saw the sealed vans,
2336
03:25:44,123 --> 03:25:45,790
so he knew.
2337
03:25:45,916 --> 03:25:51,755
(Lanzmann) He understood that
people were gassed in the vans?
2338
03:25:51,881 --> 03:25:53,882
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)
2339
03:26:05,770 --> 03:26:08,688
Yes, because he'd heard the screams
2340
03:26:08,814 --> 03:26:11,816
and heard how they weakened,
2341
03:26:12,818 --> 03:26:17,405
and later the vans
were taken into the woods.
2342
03:26:17,531 --> 03:26:19,657
(Lanzmann)
What were the vans like?
2343
03:26:19,784 --> 03:26:21,618
(Interpreter ♪2 in Yiddish)
2344
03:26:47,770 --> 03:26:52,774
Like the ones
that deliver cigarettes here.
2345
03:26:53,275 --> 03:26:56,861
They were enclosed,
with double-leaf rear doors.
2346
03:26:56,987 --> 03:26:58,988
(Lanzmann) What colour?
2347
03:27:04,703 --> 03:27:08,748
The colour the Germans used,
green, ordinary.
2348
03:27:11,919 --> 03:27:13,628
MARTHA MICHELSOHN
2349
03:27:13,754 --> 03:27:19,426
(Lanzmann) How many German families
were there in Kulmhof, Chelmno?
2350
03:27:19,552 --> 03:27:22,804
(Speaks German)
Ten or eleven, I'd say.
2351
03:27:24,890 --> 03:27:29,352
Germans from Volhynia
and two families from the Reich,
2352
03:27:29,478 --> 03:27:31,980
the Bauers and us.
2353
03:27:32,857 --> 03:27:35,817
- And you?
- Us, the Michelsohns.
2354
03:27:35,943 --> 03:27:40,155
How did you wind up in Kulmhof?
2355
03:27:43,451 --> 03:27:45,201
I was born in Laage,
2356
03:27:45,327 --> 03:27:49,372
and I was sent to Kulmhof.
2357
03:27:49,498 --> 03:27:55,211
They were looking for volunteer settlers,
2358
03:27:55,337 --> 03:27:57,088
and I signed up.
2359
03:27:57,214 --> 03:27:59,507
That's how I got there.
2360
03:27:59,633 --> 03:28:02,385
First in Warthbrucken, Kolo,
2361
03:28:02,511 --> 03:28:06,639
then Chelmno... Kulmhof.
2362
03:28:06,765 --> 03:28:08,933
Directly from Laage?
2363
03:28:09,059 --> 03:28:15,607
- No, I left from Munster.
- Yes?
2364
03:28:15,733 --> 03:28:19,360
- Did you opt to go to Kulmhof?
- Yes.
2365
03:28:19,487 --> 03:28:22,447
No, I asked for Wartheland.
2366
03:28:22,573 --> 03:28:23,781
Why?
2367
03:28:23,908 --> 03:28:25,366
(Murmurs In German)
2368
03:28:26,952 --> 03:28:29,245
A pioneering spirit!
2369
03:28:30,664 --> 03:28:34,626
- You were young?
- Oh, yes, I was young.
2370
03:28:34,752 --> 03:28:38,254
- You wanted to be useful?
- Yes.
2371
03:28:39,548 --> 03:28:45,136
What was your first impression
of Wartheland?
2372
03:28:45,804 --> 03:28:49,140
It was primitive. Super-primitive.
2373
03:28:49,266 --> 03:28:50,850
Meaning...?
2374
03:28:50,976 --> 03:28:53,394
- Even worse...
- Even worse?
2375
03:28:53,521 --> 03:28:55,396
Worse than primitive.
2376
03:28:55,523 --> 03:28:58,608
Difficult to understand, right?
2377
03:28:58,734 --> 03:29:00,109
Yes.
2378
03:29:01,362 --> 03:29:02,529
But why...?
2379
03:29:02,655 --> 03:29:07,992
The sanitary facilities were disastrous.
2380
03:29:08,118 --> 03:29:12,413
The only toilet was
in Warthbrucken, in the town.
2381
03:29:12,540 --> 03:29:14,165
You had to go there.
2382
03:29:14,291 --> 03:29:18,753
The rest was a disaster.
2383
03:29:19,380 --> 03:29:24,384
- Why a disaster?
- There were no toilets at all!
2384
03:29:26,220 --> 03:29:27,428
Yes?
2385
03:29:28,222 --> 03:29:31,224
There were privies.
2386
03:29:32,059 --> 03:29:38,106
I can't tell you
how primitive it was.
2387
03:29:40,025 --> 03:29:41,109
Astonishing!
2388
03:29:41,235 --> 03:29:46,114
Why did you choose
such a primitive place?
2389
03:29:46,240 --> 03:29:49,784
I was young, you know.
2390
03:29:49,910 --> 03:29:52,704
You can't imagine such places exist.
2391
03:29:52,830 --> 03:29:55,832
You don't believe it.
But that's how it was.
2392
03:30:00,754 --> 03:30:02,922
(Michelsohn)
This was the whole village.
2393
03:30:03,757 --> 03:30:06,134
A very small village,
2394
03:30:08,596 --> 03:30:10,388
straggling along the road.
2395
03:30:10,514 --> 03:30:13,808
Just a few houses.
2396
03:30:15,352 --> 03:30:19,355
There was the church, the castle,
2397
03:30:19,481 --> 03:30:22,025
a store, too,
2398
03:30:22,151 --> 03:30:25,486
the administrative building
and the school.
2399
03:30:26,697 --> 03:30:29,407
The castle was next to the church,
2400
03:30:29,533 --> 03:30:32,368
with a high board fence around both.
2401
03:30:32,494 --> 03:30:34,329
(Lanzmann) Yes.
2402
03:30:37,666 --> 03:30:41,669
How far was your house
from the church?
2403
03:30:42,379 --> 03:30:46,174
(Michelsohn)
It was just opposite... 150 feet.
2404
03:30:47,176 --> 03:30:50,803
MRS. MICHELSOHN WAS
THE NAZI TEACHER'S WIFE
2405
03:30:53,098 --> 03:30:55,433
(Lanzmann) Did you see the gas vans?
2406
03:30:55,559 --> 03:30:57,060
No...
2407
03:30:57,186 --> 03:31:00,521
Yes, from the outside.
They shuttled back and forth.
2408
03:31:00,648 --> 03:31:04,942
I never looked inside.
I didn't see Jews in them.
2409
03:31:06,612 --> 03:31:08,696
I only saw things from outside,
2410
03:31:08,822 --> 03:31:12,283
the Jews' arrival, their disposition,
2411
03:31:12,826 --> 03:31:15,953
how they were loaded aboard.
2412
03:31:19,458 --> 03:31:21,376
Since World War I,
2413
03:31:21,502 --> 03:31:25,213
the castle had been in ruins.
2414
03:31:26,590 --> 03:31:29,801
Only part of it could still be used.
2415
03:31:30,803 --> 03:31:35,890
That's where the Jews were taken.
2416
03:31:42,022 --> 03:31:46,025
This ruined castle was used...
2417
03:31:46,151 --> 03:31:50,113
For housing and delousing
the Poles, and so on.
2418
03:31:50,239 --> 03:31:52,699
- The Jews?
- Yes, the Jews.
2419
03:31:52,825 --> 03:31:58,287
Why do you call them "Poles"
and not "Jews"?
2420
03:31:58,414 --> 03:32:01,749
- Sometimes, I get them mixed up.
- Yes.
2421
03:32:01,875 --> 03:32:04,335
There's a difference
between Poles and Jews?
2422
03:32:04,461 --> 03:32:06,754
Oh, yes! Oh, yes!
2423
03:32:06,880 --> 03:32:09,048
What's the difference?
2424
03:32:10,426 --> 03:32:11,801
(Laughs)
2425
03:32:12,928 --> 03:32:16,139
The Poles weren't exterminated,
2426
03:32:16,598 --> 03:32:18,641
and the Jews were.
2427
03:32:18,767 --> 03:32:22,603
That's the difference.
An external difference, right?
2428
03:32:23,272 --> 03:32:25,148
And the inner difference?
2429
03:32:25,274 --> 03:32:27,483
I can't assess that.
2430
03:32:27,609 --> 03:32:33,573
I don't know enough
about psychology and anthropology.
2431
03:32:34,742 --> 03:32:37,785
The difference between
the Poles and the Jews?
2432
03:32:37,911 --> 03:32:40,788
Anyway, they couldn't stand each other.
2433
03:32:43,333 --> 03:32:45,626
(In French) On January 19, 1942,
2434
03:32:45,753 --> 03:32:48,838
the rabbi of Grabow,
Jacob Schulmann,
2435
03:32:48,964 --> 03:32:52,800
wrote the following letter
to his friends in Lodz:
2436
03:32:53,927 --> 03:32:55,386
"My very dear friends,
2437
03:32:55,512 --> 03:33:00,558
"I didn't write sooner:
I wasn't sure of what I'd heard.
2438
03:33:00,684 --> 03:33:04,729
"Alas, to our great grief,
we now know all.
2439
03:33:05,355 --> 03:33:09,734
"I've spoken to an eyewitness
who managed to escape.
2440
03:33:09,860 --> 03:33:11,652
"He told me everything.
2441
03:33:11,779 --> 03:33:16,073
"They're exterminated
in Chelmno, near Dombie,
2442
03:33:16,200 --> 03:33:19,202
"and they're all buried
in the nearby Rzeszow forest.
2443
03:33:19,745 --> 03:33:24,749
"The Jews are killed in 2 ways:
by shooting or gas.
2444
03:33:24,875 --> 03:33:29,587
"It's just happened
to thousands of Lodz Jews.
2445
03:33:30,923 --> 03:33:35,051
"Do not think that
this is being written by a madman.
2446
03:33:35,177 --> 03:33:39,013
"Alas, it is the tragic, horrible truth.
2447
03:33:39,973 --> 03:33:44,477
"Horror, horror.
Man, shed thy clothes,
2448
03:33:44,603 --> 03:33:47,772
"cover thy head with ashes,
run in the streets
2449
03:33:47,898 --> 03:33:50,024
"and dance in thy madness.
2450
03:33:51,401 --> 03:33:54,821
"I am so weary that my pen
can no longer write.
2451
03:33:55,280 --> 03:33:58,783
"Creator of the universe, help us!"
2452
03:33:59,827 --> 03:34:04,121
The creator did not help
the Jews of Grabow.
2453
03:34:04,248 --> 03:34:08,835
With their rabbi, they all died
in the gas van at Chelmno
2454
03:34:08,961 --> 03:34:10,837
a few weeks later.
2455
03:34:10,963 --> 03:34:15,007
Chelmno is only 12 miles from Grabow.
2456
03:34:51,587 --> 03:34:53,588
(Cockerel crowing)
2457
03:35:01,305 --> 03:35:04,515
(Lanzmann) Were there a lot
of Jews here in Grabow?
2458
03:35:04,641 --> 03:35:06,434
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
2459
03:35:06,560 --> 03:35:09,520
- (Woman speaks Polish)
- A lot, quite a few.
2460
03:35:13,483 --> 03:35:15,860
(Interpreter)
They were sent to Chelmno.
2461
03:35:15,986 --> 03:35:19,071
(Lanzmann) Has she always lived
near the synagogue?
2462
03:35:19,197 --> 03:35:21,949
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
2463
03:35:29,958 --> 03:35:33,169
The Polish word is "Buzinica"
not synagogue.
2464
03:35:33,295 --> 03:35:35,129
(Chatting in Polish)
2465
03:35:43,388 --> 03:35:46,265
She says it's now
a furniture warehouse
2466
03:35:46,391 --> 03:35:50,811
but they didn't harm it
from a religious point of view.
2467
03:35:50,938 --> 03:35:54,440
It hasn't been... desecrated.
2468
03:35:55,692 --> 03:35:57,985
Does she remember the rabbi
at the synagogue?
2469
03:35:58,111 --> 03:36:00,863
(Interpreter ♪ 1 in Polish)
2470
03:36:01,698 --> 03:36:03,741
(Woman speaks Polish)
2471
03:36:04,618 --> 03:36:07,244
THE SYNAGOGUE IN GRABOW
2472
03:36:07,371 --> 03:36:11,958
She says she's 80 now,
and her memory isn't too good,
2473
03:36:12,084 --> 03:36:14,919
and the Jews have been gone
for 40 years.
2474
03:36:33,814 --> 03:36:36,941
Barbara, tell this couple
they live in a lovely house.
2475
03:36:37,067 --> 03:36:38,901
(Speaks Polish)
2476
03:36:40,779 --> 03:36:43,781
Do they agree?
Do they think it's a lovely house?
2477
03:36:46,785 --> 03:36:50,121
Yes.
2478
03:36:54,126 --> 03:36:58,337
Tell me about the decoration
of this house, the doors,
2479
03:36:58,463 --> 03:37:00,548
what's it mean?
2480
03:37:07,139 --> 03:37:10,057
People used to do carvings like that.
2481
03:37:10,183 --> 03:37:12,226
Did they decorate it that way?
2482
03:37:13,895 --> 03:37:15,021
No.
2483
03:37:15,147 --> 03:37:18,190
- No, it was the Jews again.
- The Jews did it?
2484
03:37:19,317 --> 03:37:22,111
The door's a good century old.
2485
03:37:22,237 --> 03:37:24,238
Did Jews own this house?
2486
03:37:27,534 --> 03:37:29,410
Yes, all these houses.
2487
03:37:29,536 --> 03:37:32,788
All these houses
on the square were Jewish?
2488
03:37:36,710 --> 03:37:42,173
Jews lived in all the ones in front,
on the street.
2489
03:37:42,299 --> 03:37:45,092
Yes.
Where did the Poles live?
2490
03:37:48,013 --> 03:37:51,140
In the courtyards,
where the privies were.
2491
03:37:51,266 --> 03:37:53,768
Where the privies were?
2492
03:37:54,811 --> 03:37:57,813
There used to be a store here.
2493
03:37:57,939 --> 03:37:59,190
What kind?
2494
03:38:00,609 --> 03:38:02,485
A food store.
2495
03:38:02,611 --> 03:38:05,654
- Owned by Jews?
- Yes.
2496
03:38:06,156 --> 03:38:09,158
So the Jews lived in the front,
2497
03:38:09,284 --> 03:38:12,787
and the Poles in the courtyard
with the privies.
2498
03:38:19,795 --> 03:38:21,045
Yes.
2499
03:38:22,047 --> 03:38:24,340
How long have these two lived here?
2500
03:38:24,466 --> 03:38:26,717
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2501
03:38:31,640 --> 03:38:34,141
15 years.
2502
03:38:34,267 --> 03:38:36,936
(Lanzmann)
Where did they live before?
2503
03:38:37,395 --> 03:38:38,854
(Wife replies)
2504
03:38:38,980 --> 03:38:40,981
In a courtyard across the square.
2505
03:38:41,108 --> 03:38:42,942
(Lanzmann) They've got rich.
2506
03:38:43,068 --> 03:38:44,610
- Them?
- Yes.
2507
03:38:46,404 --> 03:38:47,988
- Yes.
- (Laughter)
2508
03:38:48,115 --> 03:38:50,116
(Lanzmann)
How did they get rich?
2509
03:38:54,121 --> 03:38:55,830
They worked.
2510
03:38:55,956 --> 03:39:01,293
- How old is the gentleman?
- He's 70.
2511
03:39:01,419 --> 03:39:03,546
He looks young and healthy.
2512
03:39:06,800 --> 03:39:08,342
(Barbara laughs)
2513
03:39:08,468 --> 03:39:11,137
Do they remember the Jews of Grabow?
2514
03:39:13,682 --> 03:39:17,017
Yes.
And when they were deported, too.
2515
03:39:17,144 --> 03:39:20,729
They recall the deportation
of the Grabow Jews?
2516
03:39:21,731 --> 03:39:23,566
He says he speaks "Jew" well.
2517
03:39:23,692 --> 03:39:25,943
- He speaks "Jew"?
- Yes.
2518
03:39:27,863 --> 03:39:30,656
As a kid he played with Jews
so he speaks "Jew".
2519
03:39:30,782 --> 03:39:35,536
(Husband continues)
2520
03:39:44,379 --> 03:39:49,091
First, they grouped them there,
where that restaurant is,
2521
03:39:49,217 --> 03:39:51,927
or in this square,
and took their gold.
2522
03:40:08,278 --> 03:40:11,947
An elder among the Jews
collected the gold
2523
03:40:12,073 --> 03:40:15,075
and turned it over to the police.
2524
03:40:15,202 --> 03:40:19,914
That done, the Jews were put
in the Catholic church.
2525
03:40:20,040 --> 03:40:23,292
(Lanzmann) A lot of gold?
2526
03:40:25,128 --> 03:40:27,671
Yes, the Jews had gold...
2527
03:40:28,131 --> 03:40:31,133
(Wife replies)
2528
03:40:31,259 --> 03:40:34,094
...and some handsome candelabras.
2529
03:40:44,898 --> 03:40:48,901
(Lanzmann) Did the Poles know
the Jews would be killed at Chelmno?
2530
03:40:49,027 --> 03:40:50,861
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2531
03:40:56,243 --> 03:40:57,868
Yes, they knew.
2532
03:40:59,537 --> 03:41:01,956
The Jews knew it, too.
2533
03:41:03,083 --> 03:41:06,043
(Lanzmann) Did the Jews try
to do something about it,
2534
03:41:06,169 --> 03:41:08,629
to rebel, to escape?
2535
03:41:09,339 --> 03:41:11,340
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2536
03:41:24,771 --> 03:41:26,772
The young tried to run away...
2537
03:41:29,943 --> 03:41:32,319
...but the Germans caught them
2538
03:41:32,445 --> 03:41:36,031
and maybe killed them
even more savagely.
2539
03:41:36,157 --> 03:41:38,158
(Man continues)
2540
03:41:45,625 --> 03:41:50,337
In every town and village,
2 or 3 streets were closed,
2541
03:41:50,463 --> 03:41:52,089
and the Jews were kept under guard.
2542
03:41:52,215 --> 03:41:54,133
They couldn't leave there.
2543
03:41:54,843 --> 03:41:56,677
(Man continues)
2544
03:42:00,640 --> 03:42:04,393
Then they were locked
in the Polish church here in Grabow
2545
03:42:04,519 --> 03:42:07,021
and later taken to Chelmno.
2546
03:42:08,898 --> 03:42:12,568
THE SYNAGOGUE
IN THE BACKGROUND
2547
03:42:21,870 --> 03:42:24,621
(People chatting in Polish)
2548
03:42:38,053 --> 03:42:41,805
The Germans threw children
as small as these...
2549
03:42:41,931 --> 03:42:44,683
- Yes?
- ...into the trucks by the legs.
2550
03:42:44,809 --> 03:42:46,602
She saw that?
2551
03:42:47,437 --> 03:42:50,647
- Old folks too.
- Threw kids into the trucks.
2552
03:42:50,774 --> 03:42:54,276
The Poles knew the Jews
would be gassed in Chelmno?
2553
03:42:54,861 --> 03:42:56,528
Did this gentleman know?
2554
03:42:59,449 --> 03:43:01,158
- (Lanzmann) Yes?
- Yes.
2555
03:43:05,872 --> 03:43:09,750
(Lanzmann) Does he recall
the Jews' deportation from Grabow?
2556
03:43:11,503 --> 03:43:12,961
(Barbara) Yes.
2557
03:43:13,088 --> 03:43:15,798
(Man continues)
2558
03:43:15,924 --> 03:43:18,467
At that time, he worked in the mill.
2559
03:43:18,593 --> 03:43:22,262
- (Lanzmann) There, opposite?
- Yes, and they saw it all.
2560
03:43:22,972 --> 03:43:26,517
What did he think of it?
Was it a sad sight?
2561
03:43:26,643 --> 03:43:28,477
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2562
03:43:34,943 --> 03:43:36,443
Yes, it was...
2563
03:43:36,986 --> 03:43:38,487
Yes.
2564
03:43:40,407 --> 03:43:44,701
Yes. How could you see that
without sadness?
2565
03:43:44,828 --> 03:43:46,995
(Hoof beats)
2566
03:43:52,168 --> 03:43:54,628
What trades were the Jews in?
2567
03:44:02,011 --> 03:44:04,430
They were tanners, tradesmen...
2568
03:44:07,350 --> 03:44:08,851
...tailors.
2569
03:44:15,942 --> 03:44:21,905
They sold things...
eggs, chickens, butter.
2570
03:44:25,243 --> 03:44:27,411
(Barbara)
There were a lot of tailors...
2571
03:44:29,956 --> 03:44:31,457
...tradesmen, too.
2572
03:44:31,583 --> 03:44:33,083
(Man continues)
2573
03:44:33,209 --> 03:44:35,919
But most were tanners.
2574
03:44:39,632 --> 03:44:44,720
- They had beards and side locks.
- (Lanzmann) Yes.
2575
03:44:44,846 --> 03:44:47,055
He says they weren't pretty.
2576
03:44:47,182 --> 03:44:49,141
(Lanzmann) They weren't pretty?
2577
03:44:50,894 --> 03:44:52,769
- They stank, too.
- They stank?
2578
03:44:52,896 --> 03:44:54,354
- Yes.
- Yes?
2579
03:44:54,481 --> 03:44:56,982
Why did they stink?
2580
03:44:58,443 --> 03:45:02,321
Because they were tanners,
and the hides stink.
2581
03:45:03,740 --> 03:45:05,741
(Chatting in Polish)
2582
03:45:06,367 --> 03:45:08,368
The Jewish women were beautiful.
2583
03:45:10,955 --> 03:45:13,665
The Poles liked
to make love with them.
2584
03:45:13,791 --> 03:45:16,752
Are Polish women glad
there are no Jewesses left?
2585
03:45:16,878 --> 03:45:18,712
(Woman continues in Polish)
2586
03:45:24,469 --> 03:45:27,513
(Lanzmann) What did she say?
2587
03:45:27,639 --> 03:45:31,892
(Barbara) The women
who are her age now
2588
03:45:32,018 --> 03:45:34,645
also liked to make love.
2589
03:45:34,771 --> 03:45:37,648
(Lanzmann) So the Jewish women
were competitors?
2590
03:45:41,402 --> 03:45:44,947
(Barbara) It's crazy how
the Poles liked the little Jewesses!
2591
03:45:45,073 --> 03:45:47,074
Do the Poles miss the little Jewesses?
2592
03:45:51,788 --> 03:45:54,831
(Barbara) Naturally,
such beautiful women!
2593
03:45:54,958 --> 03:45:58,544
Why? What made them so beautiful?
2594
03:46:07,762 --> 03:46:10,889
(Barbara) Because they did nothing.
Polish women worked.
2595
03:46:11,015 --> 03:46:15,519
Jewish women only thought
of their beauty and clothes.
2596
03:46:15,645 --> 03:46:19,064
(Lanzmann) So Jewesses did no work?
2597
03:46:19,190 --> 03:46:20,983
- None at all.
- Why not?
2598
03:46:23,820 --> 03:46:28,657
- They were rich.
- (Women continue speaking)
2599
03:46:28,783 --> 03:46:32,202
The Poles had to serve them and work.
2600
03:46:32,328 --> 03:46:34,538
(Lanzmann)
I heard her use the word "capital."
2601
03:46:35,707 --> 03:46:38,292
(Barbara)
The capital was in the hands of the Jews.
2602
03:46:38,418 --> 03:46:40,586
(Lanzmann)
Yes... You didn't translate that.
2603
03:46:41,504 --> 03:46:45,716
Ask her again. So the capital
was in the Jews' hands?
2604
03:46:45,842 --> 03:46:48,010
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2605
03:46:48,928 --> 03:46:50,971
All Poland was in the Jews' hands.
2606
03:46:51,097 --> 03:46:54,391
Are they glad there are
no more Jews here, or sad?
2607
03:46:55,226 --> 03:46:57,227
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2608
03:47:17,248 --> 03:47:18,707
It doesn't bother them.
2609
03:47:18,833 --> 03:47:23,712
As you know, Jews and Germans
ran all Polish industry before the war.
2610
03:47:23,838 --> 03:47:26,173
Did they like them on the whole?
2611
03:47:26,299 --> 03:47:28,133
(Barbara speaks Polish)
2612
03:47:31,512 --> 03:47:34,348
(Man replies)
2613
03:47:34,474 --> 03:47:40,604
Not much.
Above all, they were dishonest.
2614
03:47:43,483 --> 03:47:47,819
Was life in Grabow more fun
when the Jews were here?
2615
03:47:48,446 --> 03:47:50,280
(Barbara in Polish)
2616
03:48:01,918 --> 03:48:03,752
He'd rather not say.
2617
03:48:03,878 --> 03:48:06,672
Why does he call them dishonest?
2618
03:48:06,798 --> 03:48:08,632
(Barbara in Polish)
2619
03:48:17,392 --> 03:48:21,436
They exploited the Poles.
That's what they lived off.
2620
03:48:21,562 --> 03:48:23,897
How did they exploit them?
2621
03:48:38,413 --> 03:48:40,288
By imposing their prices.
2622
03:48:45,211 --> 03:48:48,505
- Ask her if she likes her house.
- (Speaking Polish)
2623
03:48:48,631 --> 03:48:49,923
Yes,
2624
03:48:51,092 --> 03:48:54,177
But her children live
in much better houses.
2625
03:48:54,971 --> 03:48:56,972
In modern houses.
2626
03:49:00,101 --> 03:49:06,148
- They've all gone to college.
- Great, that's progress!
2627
03:49:10,153 --> 03:49:15,407
Her children are
the best educated in the village.
2628
03:49:15,533 --> 03:49:18,827
Very good, Madam.
Long live education!
2629
03:49:21,789 --> 03:49:25,667
Isn't this a very old house?
2630
03:49:27,920 --> 03:49:29,838
Yes, Jews lived here before.
2631
03:49:29,964 --> 03:49:33,467
So Jews used to live here.
Did she know them?
2632
03:49:36,304 --> 03:49:37,512
Yes.
2633
03:49:37,638 --> 03:49:40,348
- What was their name?
- (Barbara in Polish)
2634
03:49:45,480 --> 03:49:48,482
- She doesn't know.
- What was their trade?
2635
03:49:50,109 --> 03:49:53,862
Benkel, their name was.
Benkel.
2636
03:49:54,489 --> 03:49:58,700
- And what was their trade?
- (Barbara in Polish)
2637
03:50:03,206 --> 03:50:04,664
(Man speaks Polish)
2638
03:50:04,791 --> 03:50:07,334
They had a butcher's shop.
2639
03:50:07,460 --> 03:50:10,045
(Lanzmann) A butcher's shop.
Why is she laughing?
2640
03:50:12,840 --> 03:50:16,301
Because the gentleman said it was...
2641
03:50:17,720 --> 03:50:22,349
a butcher's shop where
you could buy cheap meat.
2642
03:50:22,475 --> 03:50:26,228
What does he think about
them being gassed in trucks?
2643
03:50:27,104 --> 03:50:28,939
(Barbara in Polish)
2644
03:50:33,820 --> 03:50:35,237
(Man replies)
2645
03:50:35,363 --> 03:50:37,572
He says he doesn't like that at all.
2646
03:50:37,698 --> 03:50:39,533
(Man continues)
2647
03:50:47,458 --> 03:50:51,253
If they'd gone to Israel
of their own free will,
2648
03:50:51,379 --> 03:50:53,129
he might have been glad.
2649
03:50:53,256 --> 03:50:57,050
But killing them was unpleasant.
2650
03:51:00,304 --> 03:51:02,264
(Lanzmann)
Does he miss the Jews?
2651
03:51:02,390 --> 03:51:04,224
(Barbara in Polish)
2652
03:51:14,277 --> 03:51:17,571
Yes, because there were
some beautiful Jewesses.
2653
03:51:17,697 --> 03:51:19,823
For the young, it was fine.
2654
03:51:19,949 --> 03:51:24,870
(Lanzmann) Are they sorry the Jews
are no longer here or pleased?
2655
03:51:24,996 --> 03:51:26,830
(Barbara in Polish)
2656
03:51:33,421 --> 03:51:38,383
How can I tell?
I never went to school.
2657
03:51:38,509 --> 03:51:42,762
I can only think of how I am now.
Now I'm fine.
2658
03:51:43,598 --> 03:51:46,933
- Is she better off?
- (Barbara in Polish)
2659
03:51:52,273 --> 03:51:54,816
Before the war, she picked potatoes.
2660
03:51:54,942 --> 03:51:58,653
Now she sells eggs,
and she's much better off.
2661
03:51:58,779 --> 03:52:02,365
Because the Jews are gone
or because of socialism?
2662
03:52:02,491 --> 03:52:04,326
(Barbara in Polish)
2663
03:52:08,247 --> 03:52:12,959
She doesn't care, she's happy
because she's doing well now.
2664
03:52:13,085 --> 03:52:16,755
How did he feel
about losing his classmates?
2665
03:52:16,881 --> 03:52:18,715
(Barbara in Polish)
2666
03:52:21,010 --> 03:52:22,802
(Wife Replies)
2667
03:52:25,306 --> 03:52:28,016
It still upsets him.
2668
03:52:28,142 --> 03:52:30,810
- Does he miss the Jews?
- (Barbara in Polish)
2669
03:52:30,937 --> 03:52:32,270
Certainly.
2670
03:52:32,396 --> 03:52:34,773
- They were good Jews, Madam says.
- (Lanzmann) Yes?
2671
03:52:37,109 --> 03:52:40,111
GRABOW IN WINTER
2672
03:53:26,534 --> 03:53:29,744
(Michelsohn)
The Jews came in trucks,
2673
03:53:31,872 --> 03:53:35,750
and later there was
a narrow-gauge railway
2674
03:53:35,876 --> 03:53:38,420
that they arrived on.
2675
03:53:39,296 --> 03:53:43,967
They were packed tightly in the trucks,
2676
03:53:44,093 --> 03:53:47,846
or in the cars
of the narrow-gauge railway.
2677
03:53:49,181 --> 03:53:51,683
Lots of women and children.
2678
03:53:51,809 --> 03:53:55,395
Men too, but most of them were old.
2679
03:53:55,521 --> 03:54:00,233
The strongest were put in work details.
2680
03:54:00,693 --> 03:54:04,863
They walked with chains on their legs.
2681
03:54:04,989 --> 03:54:08,033
In the morning, they fetched water,
2682
03:54:08,159 --> 03:54:11,536
looked for food, and so on.
2683
03:54:11,662 --> 03:54:14,414
- (Lanzmann) On work detail?
- Jews on work detail.
2684
03:54:14,540 --> 03:54:16,082
These weren't killed right away.
2685
03:54:16,208 --> 03:54:18,251
That was done later.
2686
03:54:18,377 --> 03:54:21,463
I don't know what became of them.
2687
03:54:21,589 --> 03:54:24,132
They didn't survive, anyway.
2688
03:54:24,258 --> 03:54:26,509
(Lanzmann) Two of them did.
2689
03:54:26,635 --> 03:54:28,553
- Only two.
- Yes.
2690
03:54:28,679 --> 03:54:30,680
They were in chains?
2691
03:54:31,724 --> 03:54:33,683
- On the legs.
- All of them?
2692
03:54:33,809 --> 03:54:40,982
The workers, yes.
The others were killed at once.
2693
03:54:41,108 --> 03:54:46,571
The Jewish work squad went
through the village in chains.
2694
03:54:46,697 --> 03:54:48,490
- Yes?
- Mm-hmm.
2695
03:54:48,616 --> 03:54:52,535
Could people speak to them?
2696
03:54:52,661 --> 03:54:56,998
No, that was impossible.
2697
03:54:57,124 --> 03:54:58,500
Why?
2698
03:54:59,543 --> 03:55:01,586
No one dared.
2699
03:55:02,296 --> 03:55:04,506
- What?
- No one dared.
2700
03:55:04,632 --> 03:55:07,175
- Yes.
- Understand?
2701
03:55:07,802 --> 03:55:09,886
Yes... No one dared.
2702
03:55:10,012 --> 03:55:11,971
Why, was it dangerous?
2703
03:55:12,098 --> 03:55:19,187
- Yes, there were guards.
- Yes.
2704
03:55:22,233 --> 03:55:25,902
Anyway, people wanted
nothing to do with all that.
2705
03:55:26,695 --> 03:55:28,321
- You see?
- Yes.
2706
03:55:28,447 --> 03:55:32,700
Gets on your nerves,
seeing that every day.
2707
03:55:40,292 --> 03:55:45,088
You can't force a whole village
to watch such distress.
2708
03:55:46,590 --> 03:55:48,883
When the Jews arrived,
2709
03:55:49,009 --> 03:55:53,012
when they were pushed
into the church or the castle...
2710
03:55:53,764 --> 03:55:55,557
And the screams!
2711
03:55:55,683 --> 03:55:59,435
It was frightful! Depressing.
2712
03:55:59,562 --> 03:56:03,606
Day after day, the same spectacle!
2713
03:56:07,570 --> 03:56:11,781
It was terrible!
A sad spectacle!
2714
03:56:12,658 --> 03:56:16,286
They screamed.
They knew what was happening.
2715
03:56:17,621 --> 03:56:21,708
At first, the Jews thought
they were going to be deloused.
2716
03:56:22,251 --> 03:56:25,879
But they soon understood.
2717
03:56:26,005 --> 03:56:28,798
Their screams grew wilder and wilder.
2718
03:56:30,634 --> 03:56:33,678
Horrifying screams. Screams of terror.
2719
03:56:33,804 --> 03:56:37,599
Because they knew
what was happening to them.
2720
03:56:40,352 --> 03:56:44,522
(Lanzmann) Do you know how many
Jews were exterminated there?
2721
03:56:46,358 --> 03:56:50,195
(Michelsohn) Four something,
400,000 or 40,000...
2722
03:56:50,321 --> 03:56:51,905
(Lanzmann) 400,000.
2723
03:56:53,157 --> 03:56:57,035
(Michelsohn) 400,000, yes.
I knew it had a 4 in it.
2724
03:56:58,412 --> 03:57:00,955
Sad, sad, sad!
2725
03:57:01,081 --> 03:57:06,211
(Srebnik sings in German)
♪When the soldiers march
2726
03:57:06,337 --> 03:57:09,547
♪ The girls open
their windows and doors... ♪
2727
03:57:18,015 --> 03:57:24,020
(Lanzmann) Do you remember
a Jewish child, a boy of 13?
2728
03:57:24,146 --> 03:57:27,273
He was in the work squad.
2729
03:57:27,399 --> 03:57:30,485
He sang on the river.
2730
03:57:30,611 --> 03:57:32,695
- (Michelsohn) On the Narew River?
- Yes.
2731
03:57:33,530 --> 03:57:35,865
- Is he still alive?
- Yes, he is alive.
2732
03:57:36,450 --> 03:57:40,912
(Lanzmann) He sang a German song
2733
03:57:41,372 --> 03:57:46,751
that the SS in Chelmno taught him.
2734
03:57:46,877 --> 03:57:49,879
"When the soldiers march...
2735
03:57:50,005 --> 03:57:52,674
(Michelsohn) "The girls open
their windows and doors..."
2736
03:57:52,800 --> 03:57:54,842
(Continues singing)
2737
03:58:06,689 --> 03:58:08,690
SIMON SREBNIK
2738
03:58:08,816 --> 03:58:13,820
SURVIVOR OF 2ND PERIOD
OF EXTERMINATION AT CHELMNO
2739
03:58:13,946 --> 03:58:16,447
THE CHURCH PERIOD
2740
03:58:17,283 --> 03:58:19,284
(♪Organ plays)
2741
03:58:21,787 --> 03:58:23,788
(♪Sings Polish hymn)
2742
03:58:27,835 --> 03:58:29,836
(♪Congregation joins in)
2743
03:59:27,019 --> 03:59:29,270
(Lanzmann)
So it's a holiday in Chelmno?
2744
03:59:29,396 --> 03:59:30,897
(Barbara in Polish)
2745
03:59:31,023 --> 03:59:32,523
(Together) Yes.
2746
03:59:32,649 --> 03:59:34,984
(Lanzmann) What holiday?
What's being celebrated?
2747
03:59:40,032 --> 03:59:43,451
(Barbara) The birth of the Virgin Mary.
It's her birthday.
2748
03:59:43,577 --> 03:59:45,953
- (Lanzmann) Birth of the Virgin Mary?
- Yes.
2749
03:59:46,080 --> 03:59:48,706
(Lanzmann) It's a huge crowd, isn't it?
2750
03:59:48,832 --> 03:59:51,125
(Barbara in Polish)
2751
03:59:52,461 --> 03:59:58,299
But the weather's bad...
it's raining.
2752
03:59:58,967 --> 04:00:01,761
(Lanzmann) Ask them if they're glad
to see Srebnik again.
2753
04:00:01,887 --> 04:00:03,721
(Barbara in Polish)
2754
04:00:06,975 --> 04:00:10,144
- Very, it's a great pleasure.
- (Lanzmann) Why?
2755
04:00:12,064 --> 04:00:14,148
(Barbara in Polish)
2756
04:00:14,274 --> 04:00:17,610
They're glad to see him again,
2757
04:00:20,239 --> 04:00:23,241
because they know
all he's lived through.
2758
04:00:23,367 --> 04:00:27,203
Seeing him as he is now,
they're very pleased.
2759
04:00:27,329 --> 04:00:29,205
- They're pleased?
- Yes.
2760
04:00:29,832 --> 04:00:32,667
Why does the whole village
remember him?
2761
04:00:32,793 --> 04:00:35,878
(Barbara in Polish)
2762
04:00:48,100 --> 04:00:50,560
They remember him well
2763
04:00:51,770 --> 04:00:55,815
because he walked
with chains on his ankles,
2764
04:00:55,941 --> 04:00:59,819
and he sang on the river.
2765
04:00:59,945 --> 04:01:01,654
He was young,
2766
04:01:02,281 --> 04:01:04,157
he was skinny,
2767
04:01:04,700 --> 04:01:08,244
he looked ready for his coffin.
2768
04:01:08,370 --> 04:01:11,289
(Lanzmann) Ripe for a coffin!
2769
04:01:11,415 --> 04:01:15,585
- Did he seem happy or sad?
- (Barbara in Polish)
2770
04:01:22,801 --> 04:01:24,886
Even the lady...
2771
04:01:33,353 --> 04:01:37,982
...when she saw that child,
2772
04:01:38,108 --> 04:01:41,569
she told the German,
"Let that child go!"
2773
04:01:41,695 --> 04:01:45,448
He asked her, "Where to?"
"To his father and mother."
2774
04:01:45,574 --> 04:01:49,327
Looking at the sky, he said,
"He'll soon go to them."
2775
04:01:49,453 --> 04:01:51,496
- The German said that?
- Yes.
2776
04:01:52,372 --> 04:01:56,083
They remember when the Jews
were locked in this church?
2777
04:01:56,210 --> 04:01:58,044
(Barbara in Polish)
2778
04:02:00,964 --> 04:02:02,757
Yes, they do.
2779
04:02:07,304 --> 04:02:09,514
They brought them
to the church in trucks.
2780
04:02:09,640 --> 04:02:14,018
- At what time of day?
- (Barbara in Polish)
2781
04:02:17,481 --> 04:02:19,398
All day long and into the night.
2782
04:02:19,525 --> 04:02:23,819
What happened?
Can they describe it in detail?
2783
04:02:42,965 --> 04:02:45,841
At first, the Jews were
taken to the castle.
2784
04:02:45,968 --> 04:02:49,387
Only later were they put
into the church.
2785
04:02:49,513 --> 04:02:51,681
(Lanzmann)
The second phase, right.
2786
04:02:52,558 --> 04:02:55,560
(Barbara) In the morning,
they were taken into the woods.
2787
04:02:55,686 --> 04:02:59,647
(Lanzmann)
How were they taken into the woods?
2788
04:02:59,773 --> 04:03:02,191
(Barbara in Polish)
2789
04:03:06,113 --> 04:03:08,864
In very big armoured vans.
2790
04:03:18,834 --> 04:03:21,586
The gas came through the bottom.
2791
04:03:24,381 --> 04:03:27,675
Then they were carried
in gas vans, right?
2792
04:03:28,218 --> 04:03:31,178
(Barbara in Polish)
2793
04:03:31,305 --> 04:03:32,972
Yes, in gas vans.
2794
04:03:33,098 --> 04:03:36,851
Where did the vans pick them up?
2795
04:03:37,811 --> 04:03:39,228
- The Jews?
- Yes.
2796
04:03:39,354 --> 04:03:42,023
(Barbara in Polish)
2797
04:03:42,983 --> 04:03:44,859
Here, at the church door.
2798
04:03:44,985 --> 04:03:48,904
The trucks pulled up
where they are now?
2799
04:03:49,031 --> 04:03:51,032
No, they went right to the door.
2800
04:03:51,158 --> 04:03:54,493
The vans came to the church door?
2801
04:03:56,788 --> 04:04:00,750
And they all knew
these were death vans?
2802
04:04:00,876 --> 04:04:02,710
(Barbara in Polish)
2803
04:04:07,841 --> 04:04:10,092
Yes, they couldn't help knowing.
2804
04:04:12,095 --> 04:04:14,263
They heard screams at night?
2805
04:04:14,389 --> 04:04:17,600
(Barbara in Polish)
2806
04:04:19,728 --> 04:04:21,937
The Jews moaned, they were hungry.
2807
04:04:22,064 --> 04:04:24,106
(Lanzmann) They were hungry?
2808
04:04:24,816 --> 04:04:26,984
They were shut in and starved.
2809
04:04:27,110 --> 04:04:31,447
- Did they have any food?
- (Barbara in Polish)
2810
04:04:35,661 --> 04:04:39,997
You couldn't look there.
You couldn't talk to a Jew.
2811
04:04:40,123 --> 04:04:42,124
(Chatting in Polish)
2812
04:04:47,089 --> 04:04:51,425
(Barbara) Even going by on the road,
you couldn't look there.
2813
04:04:51,551 --> 04:04:54,178
(Lanzmann) Did they look anyway?
2814
04:04:59,476 --> 04:05:02,561
(Barbara) Yes, vans came,
2815
04:05:02,688 --> 04:05:05,690
and the Jews were moved farther off.
2816
04:05:05,816 --> 04:05:07,775
You could see them,
but on the sly.
2817
04:05:07,901 --> 04:05:10,277
- (Lanzmann) In sidelong glances.
- That's right.
2818
04:05:10,862 --> 04:05:13,322
(Barbara in Polish)
2819
04:05:14,324 --> 04:05:17,201
That's right, in sidelong glances.
2820
04:05:18,036 --> 04:05:21,163
What kind of cries and moans
were heard at night?
2821
04:05:21,289 --> 04:05:27,837
(Barbara in Polish)
2822
04:05:37,431 --> 04:05:42,435
They called on Jesus
and Mary and God,
2823
04:05:42,561 --> 04:05:44,812
sometimes in German,
as she puts it.
2824
04:05:44,938 --> 04:05:50,693
(Lanzmann) The Jews called
on Jesus, Mary and God?
2825
04:05:50,819 --> 04:05:52,778
(Chatting in Polish continues)
2826
04:05:54,865 --> 04:05:59,452
(Barbara) The presbytery
was full of suitcases.
2827
04:05:59,578 --> 04:06:03,122
(Lanzmann) The Jews' suitcases?
2828
04:06:03,248 --> 04:06:05,791
(Barbara) Yes, and there was gold.
2829
04:06:05,917 --> 04:06:08,127
(Church bells ringing)
2830
04:06:09,463 --> 04:06:12,089
How does she know there was gold?
2831
04:06:12,215 --> 04:06:14,842
(Barbara in Polish)
2832
04:06:19,723 --> 04:06:22,933
(Lanzmann)
The procession! We'll stop now.
2833
04:06:24,394 --> 04:06:26,812
(Bells continue)
2834
04:08:07,330 --> 04:08:09,331
(Horse whinnies)
2835
04:08:46,703 --> 04:08:48,662
(Bells cease)
2836
04:09:02,344 --> 04:09:04,470
(Lanzmann) Were there
as many Jews in the church
2837
04:09:04,596 --> 04:09:07,056
as there were Christians today?
2838
04:09:07,557 --> 04:09:13,938
(Barbara in Polish)
2839
04:09:15,273 --> 04:09:16,523
Almost.
2840
04:09:16,650 --> 04:09:20,110
How many gas vans
were needed to empty it out?
2841
04:09:20,236 --> 04:09:24,490
(Barbara in Polish)
2842
04:09:30,997 --> 04:09:32,456
An average of 50.
2843
04:09:32,582 --> 04:09:35,125
(Lanzmann)
It took 50 vans to empty it.
2844
04:09:36,002 --> 04:09:37,753
In a steady stream?
2845
04:09:37,879 --> 04:09:39,713
(Barbara in Polish)
2846
04:09:41,216 --> 04:09:42,591
Yes.
2847
04:09:42,717 --> 04:09:44,593
(Lanzmann) The lady said before
2848
04:09:44,719 --> 04:09:48,222
that the Jews' suitcases were
dumped in the house opposite.
2849
04:09:48,348 --> 04:09:50,182
(Barbara in Polish)
2850
04:09:52,310 --> 04:09:55,938
(Lanzmann) What was in this baggage?
2851
04:09:59,359 --> 04:10:02,945
(Barbara) Pots with false bottoms.
2852
04:10:03,071 --> 04:10:07,032
What was in the false bottoms?
2853
04:10:07,158 --> 04:10:10,077
(Barbara in Polish)
2854
04:10:12,414 --> 04:10:14,873
- Valuables... objects of value.
- Ah, yes?
2855
04:10:15,000 --> 04:10:17,251
(Woman continues in Polish)
2856
04:10:17,377 --> 04:10:20,754
They also had gold in their clothes.
2857
04:10:20,880 --> 04:10:22,715
(Woman continues)
2858
04:10:24,676 --> 04:10:29,805
When given food, the Jews
sometimes threw them valuables
2859
04:10:29,931 --> 04:10:31,724
or sometimes money.
2860
04:10:32,392 --> 04:10:36,478
(Lanzmann) They said before
it was forbidden to talk to Jews.
2861
04:10:36,604 --> 04:10:38,439
(Barbara in Polish)
2862
04:10:43,153 --> 04:10:45,362
Absolutely forbidden.
2863
04:10:48,575 --> 04:10:50,534
(Lanzmann)
Ask them if they miss the Jews.
2864
04:10:50,660 --> 04:10:52,494
(Barbara in Polish)
2865
04:10:56,499 --> 04:10:59,501
- (Woman replies)
- Of course.
2866
04:10:59,627 --> 04:11:01,503
(Woman continues)
2867
04:11:01,629 --> 04:11:06,258
We wept too, Madam says.
2868
04:11:06,384 --> 04:11:08,343
(Lanzmann) Yes. Of course.
2869
04:11:09,554 --> 04:11:13,557
And Mr. Kantarowski gave them
bread and cucumbers.
2870
04:11:22,734 --> 04:11:26,612
(Lanzmann) Why do they think
all this happened to the Jews?
2871
04:11:26,738 --> 04:11:28,572
(Barbara in Polish)
2872
04:11:34,162 --> 04:11:36,288
Because they were the richest!
2873
04:11:38,291 --> 04:11:43,128
Many Poles were also exterminated.
2874
04:11:43,254 --> 04:11:44,713
Even priests.
2875
04:11:44,839 --> 04:11:46,715
Mr. Kantarowski...
2876
04:11:52,430 --> 04:11:55,099
...will tell us what a friend told him.
2877
04:11:55,225 --> 04:11:58,060
It happened in Myndjewyce,
near Warsaw.
2878
04:11:58,186 --> 04:11:59,812
(Lanzmann) Go on.
2879
04:11:59,938 --> 04:12:02,064
(Speaks in Polish)
2880
04:12:17,872 --> 04:12:22,167
(Barbara) The Jews were gathered
in a square.
2881
04:12:22,293 --> 04:12:26,338
The rabbi asked an SS man,
"Can I talk to them?"
2882
04:12:26,798 --> 04:12:28,841
The guard said yes.
2883
04:12:41,855 --> 04:12:46,567
So the rabbi said that
around 2,000 years ago,
2884
04:12:46,693 --> 04:12:51,196
the Jews condemned
the innocent Christ to death.
2885
04:13:02,375 --> 04:13:05,752
And when they did that,
they cried out,
2886
04:13:05,879 --> 04:13:09,756
"Let his blood fall on our heads
and on our sons' heads."
2887
04:13:24,397 --> 04:13:28,066
(Barbara)
Then the rabbi told them,
2888
04:13:28,193 --> 04:13:33,614
"Perhaps the time has come for that,
so let us do nothing.
2889
04:13:34,073 --> 04:13:37,743
"Let us go,
let us do as we're asked."
2890
04:13:37,869 --> 04:13:40,495
(Lanzmann) He thinks the Jews
expiated the death of Christ?
2891
04:13:40,622 --> 04:13:43,457
(Barbara in Polish)
2892
04:13:47,295 --> 04:13:50,839
He doesn't think so,
or even that Christ sought revenge.
2893
04:13:50,965 --> 04:13:54,009
He didn't say that.
The rabbi said it.
2894
04:13:57,639 --> 04:14:00,515
(Barbara)
It was God's will, that's all!
2895
04:14:15,531 --> 04:14:18,408
- (Lanzmann) What'd she say?
- So Pilate washed his hands
2896
04:14:18,534 --> 04:14:23,580
and said, "Christ is innocent,"
he sent Barabbas.
2897
04:14:23,706 --> 04:14:25,749
But the Jews cried out,
2898
04:14:25,875 --> 04:14:28,877
"Let his blood fall on our heads."
2899
04:14:31,839 --> 04:14:34,049
That's all. Now you know!
2900
04:14:46,854 --> 04:14:48,939
(Voices fade)
2901
04:15:58,134 --> 04:16:01,636
(Lanzmann) Was the road
between Chelmno, the village
2902
04:16:01,763 --> 04:16:03,805
and the woods where the pits were,
2903
04:16:03,931 --> 04:16:06,433
was it asphalted as it is now?
2904
04:16:07,101 --> 04:16:08,935
(Barbara in Polish)
2905
04:16:15,651 --> 04:16:17,652
(Falborski speaks in Polish)
2906
04:16:22,241 --> 04:16:26,995
The road was narrower then,
but it was asphalted.
2907
04:16:36,589 --> 04:16:40,342
(Lanzmann) How many feet
were the pits from the road?
2908
04:16:40,927 --> 04:16:42,761
(Barbara in Polish)
2909
04:16:49,977 --> 04:16:51,978
(Falborski speaks in Polish)
2910
04:17:05,076 --> 04:17:09,204
They were around 1,600 feet,
2911
04:17:09,330 --> 04:17:12,624
maybe 1,900 or 2,200 feet away.
2912
04:17:13,751 --> 04:17:18,255
So even from the road,
you couldn't see them.
2913
04:17:32,145 --> 04:17:34,020
How fast did the vans go?
2914
04:17:34,147 --> 04:17:36,106
(Barbara in Polish)
2915
04:17:37,942 --> 04:17:41,361
PAN FALBORSKI
2916
04:17:41,487 --> 04:17:48,410
At moderate speed, kind of slow.
2917
04:18:04,010 --> 04:18:05,510
It was a calculated speed
2918
04:18:05,636 --> 04:18:10,974
because they had to kill
the people inside on the way.
2919
04:18:11,100 --> 04:18:12,851
When they went too fast,
2920
04:18:12,977 --> 04:18:17,522
the people weren't quite dead
on arrival in the woods.
2921
04:18:17,648 --> 04:18:24,070
By going slower, they had time
to kill the people inside.
2922
04:18:25,114 --> 04:18:29,367
Once a van skidded on a curve.
2923
04:18:35,082 --> 04:18:41,963
(Falborski continues)
2924
04:18:42,089 --> 04:18:44,883
Half an hour later, I arrived
2925
04:18:45,009 --> 04:18:48,011
at the hut of a forest warden
named Senajak.
2926
04:18:59,607 --> 04:19:03,527
He told me,
"Too bad you were late.
2927
04:19:03,653 --> 04:19:06,196
"You could have seen
a van that skidded.
2928
04:19:06,322 --> 04:19:09,866
"The rear of the van opened,
2929
04:19:09,992 --> 04:19:12,827
"and the Jews fell out on the road."
2930
04:19:13,829 --> 04:19:15,747
(Falborski continues)
2931
04:19:15,873 --> 04:19:18,041
They were still alive.
2932
04:19:23,798 --> 04:19:29,344
Seeing those Jews crawling,
a Gestapo man
2933
04:19:29,470 --> 04:19:34,015
took out his revolver
and shot them.
2934
04:19:37,270 --> 04:19:39,396
(Falborski continues)
2935
04:19:46,153 --> 04:19:47,862
He finished them all off.
2936
04:19:50,157 --> 04:19:54,786
Then they brought Jews
who were working in the woods.
2937
04:19:59,208 --> 04:20:02,627
They righted the van
2938
04:20:03,337 --> 04:20:06,590
and put the bodies back inside.
2939
04:20:16,142 --> 04:20:18,143
(Srebnik) This was the road
2940
04:20:19,186 --> 04:20:24,149
that the gas vans used.
2941
04:20:25,985 --> 04:20:29,613
There were 80 people in each van.
2942
04:20:34,660 --> 04:20:37,871
When they arrived, the SS said,
2943
04:20:37,997 --> 04:20:40,040
"Open the doors!"
2944
04:20:40,750 --> 04:20:46,046
We opened them.
The bodies tumbled right out.
2945
04:20:47,506 --> 04:20:50,300
An SS man said, "Two men inside!"
2946
04:20:50,426 --> 04:20:56,181
These two men worked at the ovens.
They were experienced.
2947
04:20:57,391 --> 04:21:01,102
Another SS man screamed,
2948
04:21:01,228 --> 04:21:05,065
"Hurry up!
The other van's coming!"
2949
04:21:05,941 --> 04:21:11,696
We worked until
the whole shipment was burned.
2950
04:21:16,452 --> 04:21:20,830
That's how it went, all day long.
So it went.
2951
04:21:50,861 --> 04:21:55,323
I remember that
once they were still alive.
2952
04:21:58,411 --> 04:22:01,204
The ovens were full,
2953
04:22:03,374 --> 04:22:06,710
and the people lay on the ground.
2954
04:22:07,378 --> 04:22:10,296
They were all moving,
2955
04:22:10,423 --> 04:22:13,133
they were coming back to life,
2956
04:22:16,387 --> 04:22:19,723
and when they were thrown
into the ovens,
2957
04:22:19,849 --> 04:22:21,433
they were all conscious. Alive.
2958
04:22:21,559 --> 04:22:25,061
They could feel the fire burn them.
2959
04:22:46,667 --> 04:22:52,046
When we built the ovens,
I wondered what they were for.
2960
04:22:55,426 --> 04:22:58,011
An SS man told me,
2961
04:22:58,137 --> 04:23:03,016
"To make charcoal.
For laundry irons."
2962
04:23:03,976 --> 04:23:06,478
That's what he told me.
I didn't know.
2963
04:23:09,648 --> 04:23:12,692
When the ovens were completed,
2964
04:23:14,820 --> 04:23:17,906
the logs put in
2965
04:23:18,032 --> 04:23:21,826
and the gasoline poured on and lighted,
2966
04:23:23,662 --> 04:23:26,664
and when the first gas van arrived,
2967
04:23:27,124 --> 04:23:32,170
then we knew why the ovens were built.
2968
04:23:41,972 --> 04:23:45,433
When I saw all that,
it didn't affect me.
2969
04:23:46,602 --> 04:23:51,314
Neither did the 2nd or 3rd shipment.
2970
04:23:54,235 --> 04:23:57,612
I was only 13,
2971
04:23:57,738 --> 04:24:01,616
and all I'd ever seen until then
2972
04:24:01,742 --> 04:24:05,245
were dead bodies.
2973
04:24:09,834 --> 04:24:12,001
Maybe I didn't understand.
2974
04:24:12,837 --> 04:24:18,383
Maybe if I'd been older
I'd have understood,
2975
04:24:18,509 --> 04:24:20,510
but the fact is, I didn't.
2976
04:24:20,636 --> 04:24:24,556
I'd never seen anything else.
2977
04:24:25,474 --> 04:24:30,186
In the ghetto, I saw...
in the ghetto in Lodz,
2978
04:24:30,312 --> 04:24:35,024
that as soon as anyone took a step,
he fell dead.
2979
04:24:35,150 --> 04:24:39,404
I thought that was
the way things had to be.
2980
04:24:39,530 --> 04:24:41,030
It was normal.
2981
04:24:41,156 --> 04:24:43,283
I'd walk the streets of Lodz,
2982
04:24:44,493 --> 04:24:48,997
maybe 100 yards,
and there'd be 200 bodies.
2983
04:24:52,001 --> 04:24:53,793
People were hungry.
2984
04:24:53,919 --> 04:24:57,380
They went into the street
and they fell, they fell...
2985
04:24:58,591 --> 04:25:01,467
Sons took their fathers' bread,
2986
04:25:01,594 --> 04:25:04,804
fathers took their sons'.
2987
04:25:04,930 --> 04:25:08,266
Everyone wanted to stay alive.
2988
04:25:10,394 --> 04:25:13,479
So when I came here, to Chelmno,
2989
04:25:13,981 --> 04:25:15,815
I was already...
2990
04:25:16,567 --> 04:25:19,569
I didn't care about anything.
2991
04:25:20,154 --> 04:25:25,575
I thought, if I survive,
2992
04:25:25,701 --> 04:25:27,911
I just want one thing:
2993
04:25:29,038 --> 04:25:31,331
five loaves of bread to eat.
2994
04:25:31,457 --> 04:25:33,166
That's all.
2995
04:25:33,292 --> 04:25:35,793
That's what I thought.
2996
04:25:35,920 --> 04:25:37,670
But I dreamed, too,
2997
04:25:37,796 --> 04:25:41,174
that if I survived,
I'd be the only one left in the world.
2998
04:25:41,300 --> 04:25:43,968
Not another soul. Just me. One.
2999
04:25:50,476 --> 04:25:54,562
Only me left in the world,
if I get out of here.
3000
04:26:11,330 --> 04:26:14,082
THE RUHR
3001
04:26:15,584 --> 04:26:20,797
(Lanzmann) "Geheime Reichssache,"
secret Reich business.
3002
04:26:22,841 --> 04:26:26,469
Berlin, June 5, 1942.
3003
04:26:29,473 --> 04:26:34,686
Changes to be made
to special vehicles now in service
3004
04:26:34,812 --> 04:26:37,397
at Kulmhof (Chelmno),
3005
04:26:37,523 --> 04:26:39,524
and to those now being built.
3006
04:26:45,030 --> 04:26:47,949
Since December 1941,
3007
04:26:48,826 --> 04:26:55,248
97,000 have been processed -
"verarbeitet" in German,
3008
04:26:56,166 --> 04:27:00,086
by the three vehicles in service,
with no major incident.
3009
04:27:02,381 --> 04:27:06,884
In light of observations
made so far, however,
3010
04:27:07,011 --> 04:27:10,346
the following technical changes
are needed:
3011
04:27:11,557 --> 04:27:12,890
First,
3012
04:27:13,767 --> 04:27:19,313
the van's normal load
is usually 9 to 10 per square yard.
3013
04:27:21,734 --> 04:27:25,737
In Saurer vehicles,
which are very spacious,
3014
04:27:26,905 --> 04:27:30,533
maximum use of space is impossible,
3015
04:27:31,243 --> 04:27:34,412
not because of any possible overload,
3016
04:27:35,748 --> 04:27:39,208
but because loading to full capacity
3017
04:27:39,334 --> 04:27:43,004
would affect the vehicle's stability.
3018
04:27:44,673 --> 04:27:48,885
So reduction of the load space
seems necessary.
3019
04:27:51,180 --> 04:27:54,557
It must absolutely
be reduced by a yard,
3020
04:27:54,683 --> 04:27:59,187
instead oftrying
to solve the problem, as hitherto,
3021
04:27:59,313 --> 04:28:02,857
by reducing the number
of pieces loaded.
3022
04:28:05,903 --> 04:28:11,365
Besides,
this extends the operating time,
3023
04:28:13,035 --> 04:28:17,413
as the empty void must also
be filled with carbon monoxide.
3024
04:28:19,166 --> 04:28:23,586
On the other hand,
if the load space is reduced
3025
04:28:24,213 --> 04:28:27,215
and the vehicle is packed solid,
3026
04:28:28,008 --> 04:28:32,303
the operating time can be
considerably shortened.
3027
04:28:33,764 --> 04:28:37,517
The manufacturers told us
during a discussion,
3028
04:28:38,102 --> 04:28:41,854
that reducing the size
of the van's rear
3029
04:28:42,439 --> 04:28:44,982
would throw it badly off balance.
3030
04:28:46,068 --> 04:28:49,946
The front axle, they claim,
would be overloaded.
3031
04:28:53,117 --> 04:28:58,788
In fact, the balance
is automatically restored
3032
04:28:59,998 --> 04:29:03,084
because the merchandise aboard
3033
04:29:04,253 --> 04:29:07,797
displays, during the operation,
3034
04:29:07,923 --> 04:29:12,260
a natural tendency
to rush to the rear doors,
3035
04:29:13,512 --> 04:29:18,558
and are mainly found lying there
at the end of the operation.
3036
04:29:21,145 --> 04:29:26,107
So the front axle is not overloaded.
3037
04:29:31,238 --> 04:29:32,822
Secondly:
3038
04:29:35,075 --> 04:29:40,746
The lighting must be
better protected than now.
3039
04:29:43,000 --> 04:29:46,252
The lamps must be enclosed
in a steel grid
3040
04:29:46,378 --> 04:29:49,297
to prevent their being damaged.
3041
04:29:51,383 --> 04:29:54,010
Lights could be eliminated,
3042
04:29:54,136 --> 04:29:57,722
since they apparently are never used.
3043
04:29:59,766 --> 04:30:03,978
However, it has been observed
3044
04:30:04,104 --> 04:30:06,647
that when the doors are shut,
3045
04:30:07,649 --> 04:30:13,613
the load always
presses hard against them,
3046
04:30:13,739 --> 04:30:16,032
against the doors,
3047
04:30:16,158 --> 04:30:18,868
as soon as darkness sets in.
3048
04:30:19,786 --> 04:30:23,080
This is because the load
3049
04:30:23,707 --> 04:30:26,751
naturally rushes toward the light
3050
04:30:28,295 --> 04:30:30,254
when darkness sets in,
3051
04:30:31,590 --> 04:30:34,717
which makes
closing the doors difficult.
3052
04:30:37,179 --> 04:30:42,850
Also, because
of the alarming nature of darkness,
3053
04:30:44,186 --> 04:30:50,024
screaming always occurs
when the doors are closed.
3054
04:30:52,319 --> 04:30:55,488
It would therefore be useful
to light the lamp
3055
04:30:56,490 --> 04:31:00,159
before and during
the first moments of the operation.
3056
04:31:03,247 --> 04:31:04,747
Third:
3057
04:31:07,000 --> 04:31:09,794
For easy cleaning of the vehicle,
3058
04:31:10,671 --> 04:31:15,716
there must be a sealed drain
in the middle of the floor.
3059
04:31:17,511 --> 04:31:22,932
The drainage hole's cover,
8 to 12 inches in diameter,
3060
04:31:23,934 --> 04:31:26,519
would be equipped with a slanting trap,
3061
04:31:27,437 --> 04:31:30,523
so that fluid liquids
3062
04:31:33,986 --> 04:31:37,238
can drain off during the operation.
3063
04:31:42,661 --> 04:31:44,620
During cleaning,
3064
04:31:44,746 --> 04:31:49,417
the drain can be used
to evacuate large pieces of detritus.
3065
04:31:59,303 --> 04:32:02,430
The aforementioned technical changes
3066
04:32:02,556 --> 04:32:05,099
are to be made
to vehicles in service
3067
04:32:05,225 --> 04:32:08,894
only when they come in for repairs.
3068
04:32:11,481 --> 04:32:14,984
As for the 10 vehicles
ordered from Saurer,
3069
04:32:18,655 --> 04:32:24,577
they must be equipped
with all innovations and changes
3070
04:32:25,662 --> 04:32:28,956
shown by use
and experience to be necessary.
3071
04:32:31,835 --> 04:32:36,422
Submitted for decision
to Gruppenleiter II D,
3072
04:32:36,548 --> 04:32:41,010
SS-Obersturmbannführer
Walter Rauff.
3073
04:32:42,971 --> 04:32:45,598
Signed Just.
3074
04:32:56,234 --> 04:32:59,153
END OF THE FIRST ERA
232527
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