Original subtitles

what do you have no this is Stanton

Friedman I'm a nuclear physicist with a

very strong interest in flying saucers

I'm in Kansas City Missouri July 24th

1991 I'm here to do an interview with

Gerald Anderson a very important witness

with regard to recovery of a crashed

flying saucer in New Mexico in July 1947

we have just had a visit with a

polygraph examiner who says he has seen

no evidence of deception this is after

spending several hours of myself and

Gerald mostly with Gerald a full report

will be forthcoming so with that we will

talk to Gerald lambs

you state your name please my name is

Gerald Anderson where we were born and

when I was born October 4th of 1941 in

Annapolis India okay and give me a

summary of what happened in 1947 with

regard to a crashed flying saucer in New

Mexico well we had just moved to

Albuquerque New Mexico on July 4th 1947

this was approximately was the date with

my uncle Ted my cousin Victor my father

my brother Glenn and myself we drove

down to the plains of san agustin which

is west of Socorro New Mexico and

Magdalena daddle area we were down there

looking for banded in moss agate which

according to my uncle Ted my cousin the

Victor was perfect

amateur rock had and wanted to get some

of this and that was a way of showing us

around there yeah they had relatives

down there

Magdalena they wanted to introduce us

too

so we had gone down there and we've got

down in the horse Prince area mile or so

and seemed like a long ways we parked

the car got out of the car and walked

down a hillside a semi before us that I

guess you could say it had pinyon trees

the scrub oak and stuff like that I walk

- well that scrub of the cedar and walk

down the hillside into an arroyo a dry

wash and then walked south down to dry

wash toward where the agates were

supposed to be at and as we came around

a bend in the Arroyo that had opinion

and cedar trees growing on we were able

to see farther ahead down the Arroyo on

a next Ridgeline there was a large

silver disc shaped object was embedded

in the side of the ridge line

rekka just written about the area

mainly this thing was attacked I would

estimate its size from an adult

perspective to be something like 35 feet

in diameter I've heard other other

people who were there say they thought

it was like 50 feet but hasn't adult I

would say about 35 feet diameter quite

large when we got up to it there were

four bodies they're not human there was

two of them who were obviously dead one

of them was obviously very badly injured

and one of the apparently suffered no

ill effects or didn't appear to be

injured and was

while I was just sitting next to the one

we're still alive where they right next

to the vehicle right next to it right

under the edge of it and this craft had

apparently come in from the east bounced

off one Ridgeline what plowing through

this royal area and then crashed into

the ridgeline and embedded itself and

they were sitting back under the edge it

was kind of tilted up like this and they

were sitting back under the edge here

and I'm assuming that this one creature

that was all right had latest material

on the ground but it looked like

unrolled the tinfoil that these other

three creatures were laying on like it

was trying to I could do a person in

shopton

kind of thing and apparently it had some

boxes there around it and had apparently

been trying to get first aid or help

these other creatures when we first got

there and as we approached the creature

gear back like this like what was in

fear of us like we're going to hurt it

wasn't very long and trying to

communicate with the adults were it

seemed the cop down on it just set there

and kind of look back and forth watching

him trying to figure out what did it

looked like a little bit more these

creatures all of them were all about

four foot tall or four and a half feet

tall they had very large heads that were

shaped larger on the top and they kind

of tapered down not to a real sharp

point but just take her down where they

were thin and they had very large very

large oval shape or an almond shape I

guess you could say black eyes that had

they were so shiny they had almost a

bluish tint to them when the light

reflected on them their skin coloration

the best way I could describe that is

kind of a bluish tinted milky what it

was it looked like someone in shock and

the ones that were laying on the ground

were really really looked more that way

more

how about ears nose man now there was

there was no visible here's a creatures

except like if you was just to cover

your rear like this for whether it was

just a riser and then a hole without you

know your earlobe about nose it was the

nose was very very small almost

imperceptible and just like two holes

straight in and the lips were just a

straight line it was like a cut and I

didn't see any this little looks like we

have it was just a split and what never

thought would sound part what hair color

there was no hair it was completely bald

and no sense I never heard of sound you

see fingers the ought they had they had

fingers like this they didn't have a

little finger they just had the thumb

and three extra digits except the center

digit was longer and the other two are

about the same size they were very long

and slender

it looked very delicate and I've made

the statement before and I'll make it

again I think it made excellent

violinist because of the structure of

their hands there were wearing one-piece

suits all of them were dressed exactly

the same it was sort of a real shiny

silvery gray color no zippers buttons no

I saw another zippers no buttons

insignia

Cygnus the only thing that was different

you know they all had this but the only

thing that was different from they need

this Silveri great thing suit was it

down the seam or like it was a seam on a

shoulder around the collar it was

trimmed in what appeared to be more than

like courting then the suits were

continuous with their foot here you

could see right about this area down it

seemed to be less pliable that was

apparent this was a sticker area like

they were boots or shoes or something

but they were all dressed exactly the

same okay so you and your family are

talking back and forth wondering what

was going on what did your family say I

mean well I say anything yeah my brother

or the first remarks I heard made was

that's a goddamn spaceship there was

bodies up there I was told not to go

through which I did and how old was your

brother at the time he was in his early

twenties I think 20

he was a lot older than you oh yes

considerably we when we got up there I

kind of meandered off to one side the

same cocked up and I was standing here

the bodies were here and everybody else

was kind of down here he sent my cousin

Victor and over here plan looking in

this gaping hole on the side of this

this disc and it shaped just like a

discus except for a round dome was up on

top and I was this big game and gashing

or we could see inside I look like a

double hall how big length Miguel

Mulligan well it covered the greater

majority from the center of the crap out

it was just like a gaping hole in here

and I'm thinking us like about 30 feet

35 feet diameter so we're talking about

17

I mean most of most of that one side was

ripped open like a and you could see

inside and you can see another double

hole in there and there was just rows of

components that was on there and there

was lights that flashed on awesomer

study somewhere flashing there was a lot

of debris and stuff hanging out of the

hole there was evidence that there had

apparently been fire it looked like it

had been burnt along the edge there

the gauge now this wasn't a guess that

could have been caused by the thing

coming into the ground it wasn't at the

leading edge of the vehicle no no this

was an aside like it almost appeared it

was elliptical it almost appeared as if

something the same shape as the disc we

were looking at had hit that that same

it hit the disc and left and imprinted

pretty closely approximated the outside

diameter the disc itself and it appeared

to be K gentle word okay and kind of

like I guess and just crumpled it caved

in and ripped it open okay so you're

you're there you take all this and

everybody's mystified what were the

circumstances outside hot cold very very

hot in crit well to me being the first

time in New Mexico

come back he's that dry heat was just

like being inside

oh it was unbelievable to me and that

was the odd part about this sending

closer you got to it the cooler it was

and standing under it in the shade there

next to these creatures bodies it was

like refrigerated air-conditioning and

did you feel air coming out of this

thing no it was just like it was ambient

and I remember reaching up and putting

my hand on the side of it that I think I

was afraid it was going to hit my head

because there was enough room for me as

a small child you know I was presciently

the same size these creatures to walk up

under there and stand in it but I kind

of did like that put my hand up against

this thing what it feeling it was

ice-cold it felt like it just came out

of her freeze it wasn't smooth was it it

was very smooth

had a very smooth texture to it was

obviously made out of metal it was very

solid and it was very cold ice cold and

there was a smell in the area it's no

wallet alert like acetone and that

seemed to be coming out of that gash

that smell but the closer you got this

thing the cooler was so like you know I

kind of remained there and I guess it

while they were over here my father and

my uncle Ted and my brother and uncle

Ted was trying to talk to this thing of

Spanish and of course it didn't

understand a word he said and dad tried

to talk to him in a try you know sign

language and that didn't work and I

don't know for some reason I just I

reached down and touched it just was

laying next to me and when I touched it

I realized you know I jumped back it

scared me and startled me today I

suddenly realized that these weren't

dolls I thought they were plastic dolls

and I you know are still in my mind oh

these are moving dolls until I touched

it and I realized you know this was a

dead thing I've been I'd seen dead

relatives before

unfortunately it made a mistake one time

touching the relative it was in a casket

I just know this is a dead thing and it

scared me I ran around behind my father

my uncle this thing was sitting there on

the ground and it kept looking back and

forth and it just had its hand like he

says laughing he just kept leaning back

and forth between the three of them and

like it was trying to understand and all

of a sudden he just turned looked right

straight at me

between my uncle Ted and myself this is

when it was just like an explosion of

the things in my hips things I started

you know feeling just terrible

depression loneliness and fear and just

you know awful awful feelings that just

suddenly burst into my mind I don't know

if that meant that it was communicating

with me and I was the only one there I

can communicate with because I was a kid

I don't know I turned it and I ran

ran across the area and up on the area

that had bounced off of during the crash

and was just standing or looking down at

the scene family off in the distance

like I see cattle grazing I can see a

windmill and could see dust trails

I don't fly out on planes out there and

oh I was there for a while I did I came

back down I guess we were there you know

Victor was in when I got back down there

Victor was up in the crack and Ted

yelled at him to get out of there and

glad I went over grabbed me by the bill

charity might see bro yeah the jerky my

office get out of there cause of saying

explode and kill us all you know and of

course he went prowling around in there

I was kind of standing off to one side

looking that's why I knew that there was

a look off these rocks that I was

standing over right into this thing

that's why I knew you know about the

lights and components and stuff and then

I don't I heard other people talking in

a turn and there was a group of people

coming up the Arroyo from out on the

plains for the South they come up there

and of course they walked up and was

talking in how many there was an older

man and five younger students boys girls

there's three boys and two girls and

they were all introducing talking to my

father

rather when the older one looked like

the commander of this group man he was

wearing a pith helmet when he first came

up one of those kind of Explorer on this

and he was bald and I know that because

he had taken it off and he had done a

couple types of the handkerchief and put

it back on he was a balding man and he

had a round face he was very ready

complected it's a big man and he

apparently was a doctor because he they

kept calling doctor as I understand it

was an archaeological group it was out

there on some kind of a summer thing and

they talked and he apparently was able

to speak several foreign languages and

he tried to talk to this creature

several times in different languages

again

how did that happen to be there have you

seen the thing well they claimed that

they saw they said they saw this thing

come down the night before of flaming

you know and they thought it was a

meteorite and they had talked about well

in the morning you know we'll go over

there and see this where this meteor

came down that's what they thought it

was and when the Sun came up the next

morning you know when they got about

their business and got up and somebody

looked over and I said you know they saw

the shiny metal and stuff across the

plains there and they realized what

meteorite it may have been an airplane

and then Christ so they all decided to

go over there and see if there was

anybody who was alive you know it was

her to even help they had driven over no

they walked over parently the way I

understand it and it's quite a ways

across that plane so it hadn't taken

very long time to do this or they may

have that vehicle I don't know that's an

assumption I think on my part okay so

they're around with my family across the

plains nonetheless I share

and then somebody else show them yeah

they were down there just doe 15 maybe

20 minutes tops you know and they were

picking up things so the students and

this doctor busker that they called him

this one girl went up and said look

doctor we wouldn't just make a beautiful

ring she was holding what looked like a

red rod red tube is some kind of kind of

a silvery red and he kind of snapped at

her you know put that down Magnus you

don't know what that is I think it hurts

you don't pick this stuff up and she

kind of said well yeah okay doctor and

then he went back to what he was doing

and she walked when I put in her pocket

and a lot of more doing this or picking

up things and feeling things I was

picking up things and feeling things it

was all kinds of material metal stuff

laying around then we heard it I heard

it what we all heard it sound of a motor

coming like a truck and I went back up

the the incline there to the to the

ridge line and I see out there and it

was a truck coming up it was an old

pickup truck

it was sort of a beige color or a tan

colored thing and a whip antenna on it

and it stopped and this guy got out he's

wearing brown clothes he's got boots on

and he's wearing a straw hat just like

the kind of harry truman always wore and

he had wire-rimmed glasses he was a big

man and he looked exactly like Harry

Truman to me and I knew I had seen in

it was president then yeah I was well

we're here Harry Truman unless I

everybody was he's I'm kind of a hero

you know this guy looked like an except

bigger bigger and yeah I don't think he

and he didn't look as old either his

hair was kind of like gray and he walked

over there and they've got to talk and

he would everybody in he told them that

he worked out on the plains out there

and if he made mass and if he had seen

the the wreckage from out there on the

plains and he saw the people he thought

was a plane wreck in you know just

something was going on he came over here

to see and he hadn't been there but just

a very very few minutes when we heard

all kinds of motors engine straining and

stuff and here comes a military car with

a big white star on the side of it

followed by a six by which is a military

truck with that kind of canvas wagon

canvassing over it is full of soldiers

that get guns and right behind that was

what we call for by which is like a

medium sized truck situation and had two

big night with bad tenants all kinds of

radio gear in it back and a guy back

there with earphones and stuff on and

he's you know working these radios and

they all pulled up and stopped and which

direction that they come from they came

from from the north from the horse

Springs area race so they cuz I'm off

the highway there oh yeah I'm dead sure

that's exactly how they got there they

come off the highway same way we did

well in the meantime that when it

stopped the black soldier the sergeant

I know he was a surgeon my brother told

me he was and he got out of this this

car and then a guy got out on the other

side and he was Glenn said he was it was

a captain he told me later he was a

captain and this guy had orange red hair

and all the soldiers of them came

running over there pointing guns at

people get away get away get away you

know and when his creature saw these

people the military he went nuts

he went into absolute panic worse than

what he did when he saw us did he move

around or just his eyes he just just oh

I'm crazy and it was like he was look

here for ya but he never got a never got

he never left the one injured when next

time had this redheaded officer this guy

was a real butthole he made all the

threats he threatened to have been shot

everybody get away get away you know

well shoot get away from there this is a

military secret you know I'm just

screaming and hollering and he told my

my uncle and my father that they didn't

want to spend the rest of their life in

prison they would never say anything

about what they saw there if they ever

wanted to see us kids again they'd take

the kids away they'd never see the kids

you know meaning me and Victor that we'd

better keep our mouths shut if we did

not this is what was going to happen

they were threatening people and pushing

people away and students as well oh yeah

there were hustle on everybody and one

of the soldiers pushed my uncle I guess

we should be back I get well that is

sudden you don't do my uncle Ted Ted in

a violent temper and he grabbed the

rifle at least over talking smack this

guy dropped it right there

Ted it dropped the fighter drop with hat

this guy's a cowboy in a minute and of

course when he did that I guess talking

talking their rifles they're pointing

guns at people and everybody Buskirk dad

grabbed you you know pulling back away

Tom told man they're gonna shoot don't

do that you know trying to stop this I

think we came very close to having

someone shot then it really started

threatening well did the red net do all

the talking pretty much pretty much

except once in a while the sergeant with

with you know we chime in and make

statements like that to other people in

response to the ready mainly it was the

red head was there a name tag

yes sir was it his name was Armstrong I

not sure if I know that from having read

it or know that from remembering it now

being able to read it in my memory or

someone said that to me but his name was

Armstrong was right here on as you know

now they chased you guys away pretty

close yeah

they herded us up on cattle just up the

Arroyo back in the direction we'd come

from over the protests that this doctor

Buskirk we said no no we've got to go

the other way we came from I don't care

where you came from ass up the the

Arroyo and they ran us up the oil and so

you get to your car right now they take

us up to your oil and just followed the

hill that we came down they broke us off

and moved us up the hill now this whole

time no one has ever frisked us down no

one has ever checked our pockets to see

if we picked up in his material and this

girl Agnes still has that stuff in her

pocket some of the other students had

stuff to my knowledge had to tough to

that point they had not been searched

whether they did so and afterward I

don't know they never searched us ever

they run this back up the hill and when

we got to where the car was parked where

daddy parked the car up there there's a

jeep with a guy sitting in the back and

there's a mounted machine gun in the

back of this Jeep and all these soldiers

the Jeep pulls out

we're told them get in the car we follow

the Jeep and we'll those soldiers go

with us all the way back onto the

highway we get back up to the highway

they set us right there that wouldn't

want to saw the car they wouldn't let us

move forward it I don't know where

they're making a decision or what when

we got out the highway this place was

absolutely full of the military

personnel military equipment there was

airplanes sitting out there that had

landed on the highway did you see any

airplanes when you were back at the Sun

yeah there was airplanes in the sky but

nobody thought much about it you know I

didn't think anything about it I was

used to airplanes being in the sky

having you know been raising

indianapolis indiana the only the Norden

bombsight you know the sky was always

full of military

and when we get back onto the highway

there's observation aircraft you know

I'm learning the aircraft and there's

one what I know now to be a c-47 set in

there and how we didn't hear that lands

beyond me and how he land well of course

I guess you could land if you're a good

pilot not there's a boulder and it was

they had torn the fence down on the

north side of that highway and all this

equipment was setting back up there that

plane was up there they were taking

stuff out of the plane there was

military ambulances and there was trucks

with like wreckers cranes on and there

was tankers like maybe a few or water in

him it was just everywhere you look

there was military and a major recovery

operation yeah it looked like an

invasion force it really did and they

were all wearing these these white light

khaki uniforms they didn't look like you

know I like dressed

they were like khaki and they all had

the same patch over there that kind of

blew funny patch with the circles on

what was on his shoulder and a lot of

any clue as to where they came from did

your brother or your eye

I don't think you'd better ascertain

that there were a lot of had empty

patches and it were a somewhat more work

night sticks off of these webbed utility

belts the m9 sticks and we had 40,000

hoster gentlemen they automatics and a

full roaster and then where the people

were given most of the orders they had

the road barricaded off out there and we

sit there for a very long time and you

were get thirsty and everything we asked

you if we could go back to Horse Springs

and get some water oh no no you can't go

through there and right after that they

said no you just turn around and you

head out of here now

and you go to Socorro and you and this

is a redhead again you keep your mouth

shut

just keep going and don't look back well

so we drove way on dad and said he'll

we'll go to

relative and so as we drove away I was

looking out the back window and I could

see dr. Buster and these kids and that

guy that got out of the pickup was

standing here and this doctor Buskirk

was doing just like this in this

redheaded officers face and he kept

pointing back behind them and I guess

that meant you know we've got to go back

that way and he was fed up with the sky

or something he was shaking his finger

in his face while they were yelling at

each other and that's pretty much the

last I saw the whole situation I don't

know what happened after that because we

just kept going you get home before dark

oh yeah yeah of course over the summer

time sitting there

and we stopped in magdalena very briefly

kept going and the adults were really

funny you know they were really scared

and I had very rarely you know of course

I didn't know him that well but over the

years I knew that it was not much of a

disciplinary he really did discipline

kids that much but he really knocked the

fire out of little victory in

Victorville wanting to talk about what

we just saw I just saw a ticket telling

you shut up don't talk about Ellen

nobody's talking about this

finally he does turn around and not

deliver the hell out of my shooting his

mouth off did ten work at Cynthia yes he

did it was did something out there in

the technical kind of clearance yes and

later your dad worked out saying yes he

did

every time dad some very odd occurrences

okay well we got home

marvelous over at uncle Ted's house

perceived

instantly that something was wrong

what's wrong

they decided to tell her what when he

did then of course this a bell oh my god

you saw demons you saw the devil because

Isabel was that's what--that's wife and

about the religious Catholic person who

thinks anything that isn't a vision and

say the Bridget Mary or of Jesus is

organ chord demons and that's what we

saw

and of course Ted

and we really never talked about it much

in the family because of the reaction in

God and my dad was really afraid and so

is Ted yeah they were glad especially

because Glenn made the statement but

when he first saw the military he told

my father he said and Ted everybody

there don't let them sumbitches know I'm

a Marine don't let them know

and of course nobody did and he was this

very close you know cat pair of blue

jeans I it was a stained clothes so he

didn't look like military or I'm sure

his acid real trouble and they never

checked they just assumed yeah I guess

did they ask your name oh yeah they took

our names you got a lot from my dad and

my brother just very cursory with you

know hard to talk to him at all you like

dad

under the circumstances of course they

never really asked me any questions at

all you're just kidding okay well you

first went public with this now let's

first square away all the other four

that you were with who did it yes it's

been some time my brother died of a

heart attack

Mexico City my dad died of a heart

attack yeah

ted mid-60s 65 right now there's a

strange diary that's turned up how did

that happen

well when I went to my father's funeral

in 1978 a lot of dad's belongings were

personal belongings were given to us

well you didn't live in the area

oh no they were gone off the military

military and your dad had remarried a

couple of times oh yeah this is so the

dad was on his third wife and he his

personal belongings and stuff

kind of give it to my two brothers

myself my cousin belly Jean was there at

the funeral

that's Ted's daughter yes and she came

up and was talking to me and she said

here you were there you need to have

this too and she handed me these

photocopies and at first you know I

thought what is this dad's there and she

said no it's my dad's diary but you were

there this

and so I said yeah okay you know and I

didn't want to talk about it to funeral

because Roz's side of the family god

bless your dad's third wife god bless

her he loved her but they were very

religious and they would have viewed

this exactly the same way as Isabel I

had as evil and I really didn't want to

have any problems with

kind of shaky terms we didn't quite

you're active in religion now oh yes

yes you're a deacon in the Episcopal

Church right okay that means you

actively participate well yeah lay your

Christian ministry okay well I guess I

actively participated I served on the

altar what do you do for a living I'm a

security officer in the state of

Missouri and you've been doing police

sort of work for several years oh yes

and you also are going to college to be

a nurse and you've already got a couple

of associate degrees from community

colleges right yes I don't want to so

see the size and want associated general

studies and I'm working toward my

Bachelors of Nursing roughly two years

my Bachelor of Nursing lbli now to be a

security officer you have to be licensed

by the state of Missouri yes you have to

be a certified law enforcement officer

which means that you have to have gone

to the state academy so that's not just

the basic thing oh no you have to

perfect outta me yes okay and you have

to work for the now when we get back to

the diary for just a minute when you are

hypnotized by John Carpenter a

psychiatric social worker

and he was asking you questions about

the diary apparently you've been told

that there were a number of copies of

that around yeah

something buried out maybe there too

yeah I understood well in fact

conversations with Valley Jean after the

fact after I got involved in his thing

through the unsolved mysteries thing I

was told that that wasn't the only diary

that what I had was it was a copy was a

photocopy okay and that there were a lot

of these companies around and apparently

uncle Tim or someone had had put these

out through different people in the

family and Frances for reasons I don't

know to keep her from getting lost or

something like that okay now when I

asked you for the original you contacted

who le gee that was Valentino but she

was in a convent right and she was

reluctant to do anything you had to call

a number of times is everything that's

correct

when you talk to the bishop somebody

times yeah I talked to the bishop and he

convinced her to send the stuff to me

yes because I got it directly from

Colorado with a cover letter that

strongly indicated that she didn't want

any more to do with this that was part

of the agreement but that she considered

this the work of the devil were words to

that effect anyway

see all I ever had at this was was the

photographic copies that I had showed

you originally as I understand it you

received I received the original orig

those have been made they were partly

burnt she mentioned she had intended to

burn them but because of your

persistence and with the agreement that

I never contacted her she would send

them to me and as you know when I had

forensic analysis done it showed that

the ink dated from the early 70s the

paper could have been available in 47 so

it's clearly not an original but it was

also done before there was any publicity

about this case anyway as I know I was

the first one get involved exactly

now as you know we have discovered not

honor but you had a dentist's catch is

done by a police artist other various

people involved in this right and as you

know there was a picture several

pictures that seem to indicate the

doctor Buskirk was dr. Winfred Buskirk

would received his PhD at the University

of New Mexico and you would describe him

as in his late 30s early 40s it turns

out he was 39 in 19

he was bald bald most of his life even

up to then did what's their other

contact between you and hey at that time

as far as you know your family and him

work I don't know everything

I don't know my knowledge I don't I

don't believe my dad had ever contact

him it's just a possibility Ted I'm not

sure why I think valid gene had alluded

to the fact that Ted had been in contact

with him

that they had correspond in this kind of

thing as far as personal knowledge

okay now you didn't tell your story

really until the unsolved mysteries

program was rerun in January of 1990

that's right that's when you contacted

them got my address drove me yeah ran

badly I'm upset that the program wasn't

quite accurate well yeah that was the

whole thing started off as a fluke to

begin with because everything that I saw

didn't didn't jive with what I had seen

personally I guess I was kind of miffed

you know here all these years I had been

primarily forced you know not only by

others but by you know my own sense of

survival to keep my mouth shut

Wow here it is it's on TV Betty got it

wrong

that's just impossibly called the number

and total blank was wrong why do you

know that sir and I said well because I

was there that's why it what really

apparently pulled somebody's string yeah

lucky thing that was wrong of course

there were a few mistakes in an

otherwise excellent program was that

they had that the Barney Barnett the

civil engineers story over near Corona

and you knew that it was over in the

plains right there's a lot more well

yeah and then the fact that the thing

looked like a Tim flat or a tent top hat

it was this shape and Barney Barnett or

whoever the guy the truck was did not

drive right up to it on a road it wasn't

parked conveniently next to a it was

just things like that I I don't know I

just for some reason I thought well you

know geez look it's already public yeah

the story's out and let's get it right

you know of course I didn't I don't

think I realized at the time you know

how involved this was going to be but

now I got you together with John

apartment near the you psychiatric

social worker and you guys had several

sessions and then we flew out to the

site you're reasonably convinced now

that the second time around out there we

didn't find the exact location yeah the

first time in I you know it was like 43

years and we're a helicopter then I was

never the I was in the air this time

last time I was on the ground and so you

know the landmarks for a little

confusing I was positive I was in the

right place but until he actually got on

the ground John and I and retraced the

route in there that we had come in in

the car I was absolutely sure there was

two ridge lines there and I wasn't

really sure of which one it was and I

had the feeling that the first one that

I had pointed out was the correct one

once I went in on the ground on foot

with John I knew instantly that it

wasn't that one it was the other one and

I'm absolutely positive that that's

where I was at

and you will recall that you describe

the woman who sold you the pop on the

way in right and we found this older

woman there who said that was exactly

what she looked like that's right I'll

never forget that lady because I had it

with me

I'm telling you back seat of that 40

Plymouth down there was dirty old roads

and stuff for mile after mile of course

my dad was one of these kind of people

when he got in a car it was point A to

point B non-stop I don't know why he

just never stopped to smell the roses

along the way and so you know I was

pretty sad shape what kind of response

have you had you went public I mean John

talked to a newsman and you both talked

he called me in the Springfield miss

Perry people paper carried a very

straight very large article and that got

spread around by lots of people so

suddenly you're a celebrity if you will

what kind of reaction from the people

who knew you on campus where you work

before all very very few there's the

noisy negative this you know we have but

in general is the gentleman or 99% of

the people were incredibly supportive

only one professor at the University

was that the dangerous type that was

vocal about it everybody else is just

100% supporting the majority of these

people are absolutely convinced even

without this story that extraterrestrial

life-forms exist and that the people are

flying around out there and moving

between the systems and stuff and it was

just it's just a unbelievable amount of

supportive you didn't lose your job oh

no boss didn't give you a hard Testament

and not in fact I think it's I can

publicly say that my boss was extremely

supportive because he is a avid

ufologist himself he is fascinated by

the subject and he won't have any

problem convincing him either and my

boss has a master's degree he's not

someone that's untrained observer that's

given the hallucination most of the

people who are the most supportive of me

are people with very high education it's

very very solid education very solid

understanding

give it a hallucination you went you

attended a UFO conference with John

Carpenter and he gave a paper I guess

and introduced you and you've got a

response of that audience - yeah 100%

supportive really we're quite relieved

and made very very welcome

well you've been interviewed by a number

of other people Linda Howe working on a

documentary and so forth seems to

applaud this turnout how much contact

did you have with Kevin Randall ah a

very brief telephone call I came home

from work one day and there was a

message on my answering machine and as

you well know I have a tendency to be

hard to get home yes number and of

course I had his address and I had nine

years and I had sent cards to both of

you something to the effect if you want

to know what really happened after he

called me and he had called and I wasn't

there and he had left his number so I

returned his call now I talked to him

very briefly

primarily because I didn't like the

man's attitude I don't feel comfortable

with people who call other people with

liars and charlatans and phonies and say

that they rigged their research to make

it come out the way they want and when

someone starts telling me this kind of

thing the first thing I want to do is I

want to get away from them and this is

exactly what it did now I understand

that this man claims that I've talked to

him for two hours and he has a two-hour

tape of one contradiction after another

I mean that's not quite true

okay there's been no other contact with

no other contact I won't give them at a

time of day as any other investigator

any of the noisy negative its approach

to during though none at all the only

other investigators yourself for Don

Berliner and Bob Bigelow and John

Carpenter and you're quite familiar with

and you agree that on that first trip to

the plains it was you i bob the glow and

a pilot in the helicopter yeah joe

charlie the pilot was in the front seat

on the left side I was in the front seat

on the right side you were directly

behind me No

you were directly behind the pilot on

the left side of Bob Bigelow was

directly behind me on the passenger side

right and then we met up with eventually

with the Don Berliner and Mike carpenter

they over the next three days they drove

to dal will they drove the jeeps and

stuff to Dell when we're waiting for us

at Dettol when we landed in the highway

right and as you recall where did we

refuel the helicopter Dale Arizona

because it's not Florida Arizona that's

oh no no it was just a matter of a few

minutes actually

25 25 minutes maybe it's max west of

where we were located all right I think

we may pick this up another time but I

think that'll do us for now

really appreciate the time trouble and

effort and all the rest of that and I'm

the bigger and better thing