All language subtitles for Surviving.Mormonism.with.Heather.Gay.S01E03.Change.is.Gonna.Come.1080p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DDP2.0.H.264-Kitsune_Subtitles01.ENG

Hey.

- Hi, Heather.
How are you doing?

I'm doing good.
Doing well.

Yeah.

It means so much to me that

you would say that
because it meant

so much to me to be able
to, like, share that with you.

I love you,
and I will do whatever I can.

Thank you so much, Benny.

- OK, you too.
- Bye.

Bye.

I mean, all I did was listen
to his story, you know?

That's all I did.

I feel sad that I was part

of the problem for so long,

and I guess I know
how devout I was

and what it would have taken
for someone to make me

think or feel differently.

And I know deep down that
that's what we're up against.

♪ ♪

I'm promising that
I'll help carry the burden,

and I'll be an ally
and an advocate.

But doesn't it like seem
a little ridiculous

to you that it's me?

You know, I'm just like
an idiot housewife,

and I'm the one that's
taking the time to listen?

I just feel overwhelmed
and horrified

and scared and...

stuck, and it didn't
even happen to me.

I just want to do
whatever I can.

And I'm scared
that I'm not enough.

These stories should be enough.

They shouldn't even need me
to bring attention to 'em.

I will never back away.

I just hope that more
will join the fight.

- We grew up in the church
and were abused by our dad,

and all of our bishops,
stake presidents

for almost two decades

knew what was going on
at home.

Nobody said
or did anything to help.

- I personally could not look
at the church as responsible,

or that they had
a responsibility to me,

because of the way
that I was indoctrinated.

- I get messages
every day from survivors

of abuse that talk
about the way

that the church
had failed them.

I'm on my way to meet
with these sisters.

They reached out to me.

Their story is... awful.

And it sounds like the church
just really let them down.

And I don't understand
how that could have happened

so many times in
so many different situations.

The truth is,
bad things are happening,

and they're not doing
anything about it.

I want to find out
who they talk to specifically,

like what was said,

and how they could have,
you know, not only fallen

through the cracks,
but just been deliberately,

you know, shuffled into
a system that was abusing them.

- Hi.
- Hi.

I'm Heather.

Hi, it's so good to meet you.

It's so nice
to meet you too.

You guys both have
septum piercings.

Yes, I wanted it
since I was 16.

Yeah, how long
have you had it?

I did not give
myself permission

to get it until I was 36.

I mean, I totally understand
that, like, not giving yourself

permission for it,
and it's like,

I really think it's
the biggest badass thing

you can do as a Mormon woman.

- You know what I mean?
- Yeah.

I was scared to get
a double pierce, you know?

Like I hid it from my family.

I am the older sister.

I'm the middle child,
but I'm the older sister.

I am about 4 and 1/2 years
older than Jennie.

When we were small children,

she was the annoying
little sister.

When I was little, I had
got a nickname of Mini Liz

because I would just
follow her around everywhere,

and if she did something,
I wanted to do it.

And if she liked something,
I wanted to like it.

She was the person
who I wanted to be

and my favorite person
to be around.

She has always been
my example.

- As we got
a little bit older,

we definitely relied
on each other a lot.

We became inseparable
and really formed

a really special relationship.

We've lived in a lot
of different places.

My dad was in the Navy,
so I was born on Guam,

along with my older brother.

And then we moved to San Diego.

Jennie was born there.

We lived there
until I was about ten.

Then we moved to this
teeny-tiny little town

in northern Minnesota
with a very small branch.

I often tell my husband,
who grew up here in Utah,

that I had a much more staunch,

like, Mormon upbringing
than he did.

♪ ♪

It's really hard to talk
about it in terms of beliefs,

because it was more like
my entire sense of reality.

I identified as a member
of the Church

of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints.

And that really meant
something to me.

What I found both disturbing
and compelling about your story

is it just seemed like
the church had so many

opportunities where it could
have really helped you,

and instead it just-
it didn't.

If you're comfortable,
kind of-

can you kind of
walk me through it?

- There was never a time that
I remember not being abused.

My earliest memories
are of abuse.

My dad himself
told me he always knew

he would abuse his child
if he had a daughter.

He never went for help,

knowing that he had that,
you know, predilection.

He just hoped he would
never have the opportunity.

So when the opportunity came
along and he had a baby girl,

that's what he did.

Some of my earliest memories

are digital penetration,

oral stimulation.

As I got a little older,
it did move

into a bit more violent,
you know,

full-on rape penetration
and anal penetration,

and I didn't recognize it
as wrong.

I just recognized it
that it hurt,

and I didn't like it,

and I wanted him
to not do it, to stop.

The belief that

we can be an eternal family

and that that's
what we strive to be,

that is drilled into you

from your earliest,
earliest times.

He would say things like,
we keep this between us.

This is the way
that God wants us

to show that
we love each other.

And so when
he would frame it as...

these are the right things
to be an eternal family,

I believed him.

He used the church's
teachings as a way

to make the abuse normal.

My brother was the target
for his worst physical abuse.

I was the target
for his sexual abuse.

Jennie was the target
for neglect.

- My dad abused all of us
slightly differently

so that we would feel isolated
so that we couldn't talk

to each other
and we couldn't

relate to each other,

and we would put up with more

to keep everyone else from
feeling what we were feeling.

Oh, like, I might need to
like just take like one second.

Sorry.

♪ ♪

My sister is the strongest,

most beautiful soul

I have ever known
in my whole life.

She is my hero.

I would not be here today
on this Earth

if it were not for my sister.

- I've never met
anyone more empathetic.

To have gone through
what she's gone through,

and still want to even look
anybody else in the face

let alone connect
with them is wild.

Did you have any idea of what
was happening to your sister?

I didn't know details
until much later,

but I always knew
that something was wrong.

When my mom found out
that my dad was abusing me,

I was only five years old.

She discovered an act
of abuse happening.

I didn't really know
why she was so angry

or what was happening.

It had been something
I'd been experiencing

my whole life
up to that point,

and so I didn't know
it wasn't normal.

And so she, you know,
starts screaming,

and I run and hide 'cause
I thought I was in trouble.

And her first instinct
was not to go to the police.

You know, she didn't think
this is a crime.

She thought this is a sin.

And so she went to her bishop.

♪ We thank Thee ♪

♪ O Lord, our God ♪

On my mom's side is extremely
devout generations back.

- The church was so important
to my grandparents

that that passed down
to my mom.

That was her frame of reference
for life basically.

Anything outside
of the church is of the world,

and being worldly was a sin.

And so she went straight
to the bishop.

To a believing Mormon,
the bishop's word

is the word of God.

When you have access to a
resource like the power of God,

you know,
you run to your bishop.

We were pretty open with
discussing it in our family,

like, throughout the years.

So, you know, and I kind of
heard later on from my mom

and my dad kind of
what was discussed.

And what did that bishop
say to her?

Essentially,
you need to be a better wife.

You need to be a better member.

You need to read
your scriptures more.

Make sure that you're doing
family home evening.

Like be
a more supportive wife,

does that mean have more sex
with your husband?

The phrase that
I remember hearing was

"to be more available"
to him...

That is so gross.

So that he won't be tempted
to abuse his daughter.

So you're the gatekeeper
of his actions.

Yeah, like it was somehow
her fault

- or mine for tempting him.
- No, yeah, absolutely.

They're taking
all the burden off of him,

and they're making it this,
like, bodily function...

- Yes.
- Rather than the crime it is.

Yes, he gave him,
like, a slap on the wrist.

There wasn't any official
disciplinary action taken.

No contact
to law enforcement? Nothing?

Nope, it was like six months
of unofficial probation.

Basically,
don't take the sacrament.

You can't say prayers.
But he wasn't-

Like they treated it like a-

- like he had drank wine and-
- Yeah, yeah.

That's terrifying.

- Yeah.
- Mm-hmm.

My understanding was
that it was said

there's no need
for an official report.

It was very much
the message that,

'cause my mom reported it
to the bishop,

that was all
that needed to happen

and no further action
necessary because

they were going to
take care of it.

He told him to go to counseling
through LDS Family Services.

He went to the office.

He told them why he was there,
and they said, stop.

They warned him essentially.

If you continue with telling us
what you're doing,

we will be obligated
to report it.

So he stopped talking
and then didn't go back.

Stop talking.
Go home to your daughter.

Yeah, I think that
that initial bishop,

he mostly was concerned
about my dad's salvation.

You as the victim were
kind of just collateral damage

and secondary to,
like, getting this man

on the road to righteousness.

It's terrible.

I mean,
there's not even a word.

I just-
I don't have a word.

There is no word.

A bishop looking in the eyes
of a five-year-old

who he knows is being raped,
patting her on the head

and sending her home
with her rapist.

And every bishop is called
by divine inspiration.

Right.

If he was inspired by God,

why wasn't he inspired to
get us out of that situation?

♪ Happy birthday to you ♪

- The abuse never stopped.
It didn't even slow.

It just continued
and then progressed,

you know,
to become more violent.

♪ ♪

That has definitely been a...

♪ ♪

A source of rage

and even just a source

of confusion.

Like, how could this
have happened?

The bishop had the opportunity,

obligation even,
to report the abuse.

My mom had the obligation
to report the abuse.

He was sent to counseling
who had the obligation

to report the abuse.

And, you know,
even going further,

if the stake president
knew about it,

at that initial time,
I was five years old.

Abuse had been happening
to me for five years.

If it had been reported
at that time,

there is the potential that
it could have stopped there.

Because it wasn't,
I was then subjected

to 13 more years of abuse.

Even more horrifying
is to realize is it wasn't-

- it wasn't just that one bishop.
- Mm-mm.

Because that was
just the first time

that my mom went to her
priesthood leader for help.

You've got a big day.
That's right.

It's a big day.

I'm going to get baptized.

You're going to get baptized.
By who?

My dad.

Well, isn't that nice.

After the very first time
she found out

and he had that slap
on the wrist,

he was just
a full member again.

You keep saying
slap on the wrist.

It's like I cannot believe

- that that's all he had.
- Mm-hmm.

It was after his,
you know, six months

of not taking the sacrament

then he just was
a full member again.

He actually did my baptism.

Like he just-
he was just a regular.

He baptized you?

Oh, yeah.
Yeah.

And he was still abusing you?

Oh, yeah, mm-hmm.

The father's the priesthood
leader of the family.

So he's doing the priesthood
work for the family.

Well,
we got our newest member

of the Bonita First Ward here,
Elizabeth.

I'm proud of her.

I can't imagine how

that would change
your reality,

especially when you've told
people he's gotten caught

and no one's done
anything about it.

- I really wish
that I could go back

and hug that little girl

and just be like,
it's OK to be happy

even though these really
bad things are going on.

You're finding the joy
in your life right now,

and that's OK because sometimes
I feel shame for that.

Like, why didn't I act
in a way that other people

could see that I was hurting?

But also I look back,
and I think, wait a minute.

I didn't need to let people
know in other subtle ways

because we fucking told them
to their faces.

Yeah, in black and white
words so they couldn't say,

well, she seems fine to me.

- Before the age of eight,
you are incapable of sin.

Once you turn eight years old,
you are now capable of sin,

and that's why
you need baptism.

The idea of being
capable of sin

made me question
what he was doing.

Is it wrong?

But part of the reason
why I complied sometimes

was so that he wouldn't look
for the opportunity elsewhere.

I couldn't imagine him
doing that to anyone else,

but especially not
to my sister,

my little sister
who was just little.

She was just so little.

I couldn't let that happen.

- The idea
of a premortal existence

is a huge part
of the doctrine.

The idea that we chose
to come to our family,

we knew ahead of time
as spirits

a general idea of what sort of
things we would be faced with,

because I would have been,
you know, watching my family

that I'm going to come into,
and I still chose to come here.

I still chose this family.

And for a long time, I thought
it was because I can handle it.

I must be really tough.
I must be really valiant.

I must be really special
because God's asking me

to do this
really difficult thing.

And so if I don't do it well,
I'm going to disappoint him.

He's expecting me
to come back

and thank him
for the opportunity

to have lived a mortal life.

♪ ♪

I'm assuming no one ever said
take your kids and leave him?

No.

When my mom married my dad,

she was very explicitly
told by my grandparents,

this is a forever thing.

You are being eternally
sealed to this man.

You cannot come home.

- Not too long
after she had found out

that my dad was abusing me,
we went out to Minnesota

for a family reunion.

She was in turmoil
the whole time,

considering,
maybe I should stay here.

Maybe I don't have to go back.

But because of the way that
my grandparents framed

this marriage to her,
she felt it wasn't safe

to go to them and say,
I really need your help.

I believe that
my mom was a good Mormon,

and that meant obeying
your priesthood leaders.

And the priesthood leaders

said that
they would handle it.

Honestly, I think
that she truly believed

that he's been caught.

He's not going to do it again

because that's
what repentance is for.

You stop doing the thing
that you are doing,

and you repent of it.

And because he had
then completed

whatever
this initial bishop's-

- His penance.
- Yes.

In her mind,
he wasn't going to do it again.

So she just for five years,
just trusted him-

trusted my dad
that he had stopped.

And then when I was ten,
she discovered the abuse again.

- When I was ten,
I have a very vivid memory

of the act of abuse
that was happening

when my mom caught
my dad again.

It was the middle of the day.

She had gone somewhere-
I don't know-

grocery shopping, something.

Had come home earlier
than he was expecting.

He had me in the bedroom

and was performing
oral sex on me,

and my mom, you know,
storms in the room.

I'm crying.
I can't say anything.

And all I do is
I lift my skirt to show

that I don't have
any panties on.

My mom went
to the priesthood again.

And this time, they took it
a bit more seriously.

This time,
he was excommunicated.

And if you're excommunicated
in that fashion,

I'm assuming he had the 12-

a disciplinary council
of 12 area representatives.

The whole stake presidency,

the entire
disciplinary council.

All of those priesthood
leaders knew.

Excommunication
doesn't do anything.

It gives them plausible
deniability of anything he does

and also some enmity
so that they can say,

well, he wasn't
a member of the church.

- No one called the police again.
- Mm-mm, no.

And this time,
so many more people knew.

The church views
excommunication as part

of the repentance process.

When there is
a serious enough sin

to require excommunication,

it has to happen so that
they can fully repent

and then be rebaptized
as a member.

With the excommunication,
with all of those

priesthood leaders knowing,
not one of them

went to law enforcement,

not one of them thought
it might be a good idea

to maybe protect
the other children

that he had access to

and warned the members
of the church

that he was still
actively attending.

All I'm hearing is,
like, them saying,

whatever happened to Lizzie
doesn't matter.

What matters is
what happens to him...

- Yeah.
- And we've taken care of him.

So, like, I can't imagine
as a victim

feeling revictimized every time
that it doesn't matter

that you're abused,
doesn't matter what he did,

and it doesn't matter if you-
it doesn't matter.

I think one of the issues
is when bishops

only see themselves
as the spiritual leaders,

because I think that once
he'd been excommunicated,

they felt that was the end
of their responsibility.

The church leadership,
the top leadership,

as long as they were doing
what they said,

then that's what they were
supposed to be doing.

And there's no room
left for your own moral-

there's no personal choice.

No personal responsibility
attached to those decisions

because it comes
from the top down.

I mean, that's how
I felt growing up.

Like, I had already made
that choice

when I got baptized.

So now every other choice
was already made.

- Yeah.
- Mm-hmm.

- Once my mom realized
that he didn't stop

and wasn't going to stop,

but she was still
counseled to stay,

she thought, OK,
all I have to do

is just make sure that
he's never alone with her.

It was her job
to keep him in check.

It was her job to keep him
away from Elizabeth.

And she spent years
trying to do that

and failing because
she was a human being

who needed to sleep.

I heard a story similar
where that burden

was put on the wife,
and so she just

started sleeping
in front of her child's door

on the carpet.

How do you ask that
of someone?

When we moved to Minnesota,

my mom took my dad
and met with the bishop.

Just to say I'm working
on coming back to church?

It was a front, you know-

I think it was
to help him hide.

The veneer of perfection,

the perfect little
Mormon family.

We couldn't have that without
the father and husband.

I know all about that, yeah.

Nobody could know
that he wasn't a member.

Only the leaders knew.

All the rest of the members
of the Church didn't.

So you guys
were going to church

every Sunday throughout
all of this?

- Never missed a week.
- Yes.

- So did your dad go
to church with you guys?

- Yeah, he even wore
certain undershirts

that would make him look
like he was wearing garments.

- The people who
he interacted with at church

had no idea of what
he was doing at home,

but because
the leadership knew

and didn't do anything
about it,

he was able to form
those bonds and friendships

- under false pretenses.
- Yeah.

They had no idea
that they were friends

with a pedophile
who could potentially

harm their children.

Your dad's already
excommunicated,

but you're not allowed
to talk about it.

They reinforced to you
as the victim and child

a code of silence
to protect him.

Oh, absolutely, yes.

Which would make, I mean,
if I were in your position,

like, more reluctant
to say it hasn't stopped.

The excommunication
didn't scare him straight.

It took her a long time,

but my mom started
questioning that message.

There was a lot of shifts
in dynamics in our family.

One of the times
was when online chat rooms

became really popular.

My mom started chatting
in these chat rooms,

and with that, you know,
veil of anonymity,

she was able to talk about
what was going on at home.

People were validating her,
finally,

validating her thoughts
of this is not right.

This is horrible.

And really being horrified
by what she was saying,

and I don't know that she
really expected that reaction.

But I don't give her
a lot of grace

for this time period
because she left us

alone with him
so she could figure it out.

- So she left?
- Yeah.

Our mom had left us
there with my dad

and had gone to Ireland
to meet someone

that she had met
in one of the chat rooms.

At that time,
she wasn't thinking

about how we had been feeling.

She only was reflecting
on how she had been treated

and how she was feeling,

and so she kind of
abandoned us.

That's the summer that Liz
and I got really close

and protected each other
to the best of our ability.

As a 13-year-old
and a 17-year-old, yeah.

So how did it
eventually stop?

As I got older,
the abuse changed.

The risk of pregnancy
was enough of a deterrent

to stop the rape.

My abuse turned
to a more mental

and emotional sexual abuse.

And the abuse definitely
changed for my sister.

I did have one instance
of sexual abuse,

and it was that same summer
that my mom left.

When my mom came back,
the dynamic had shifted a lot.

I don't know what happened
to her while she was gone,

but when she came back,
she said, we're leaving.

She decided to take us
to Utah because

she wanted
to be around Mormons.

- Let's go where Mormons are...
- Go to the motherland.

And they'll help us.

Even after years
of being kind of dismissed

and told to put up,
shut up, and do better,

she still went to the church
for safety and support.

- Yeah.
- It's her first call.

I understand that.

- I got pregnant
with my son when I was 18,

and I was out here in Utah

trying to make it work
with his dad.

It was a turning point for me.

I still had a communicative
relationship with my dad.

Like we weren't friends.

Like I didn't-I-

But I still talked to him.

I still saw him as my dad.

When I had my son, and I felt
so much joy and so much love,

I felt what
a parent is supposed

to feel for their child.

And in that moment,

I knew I could never
talk to him again.

The only time
I ever talked to him again

after that was for
my criminal case against him.

So how do you go about
reporting something like that?

Well, I thought of
all of the years of abuse,

the place where
it happened the most

because we lived there
the longest was California.

OK.

And so I called the
San Diego Police Department,

and I made a report
with a detective.

He asked me for
some instances of abuse.

I gave him maybe, you know,
three or four memories.

- I've got hundreds.
- Yeah.

You know, just the tone of
horror and anger that this man

who I'd never met before
had for me and our family,

it was-
um, it was very validating,

and it was a shock.

Like seeing through a
clear lens for the first time.

Yeah, all these other men
knew these exact same things.

How is this the first person
who's showing any sense

of this isn't right and
something needs to be done?

During the investigation,
I had worked

with the police department
to call him and record it.

♪ ♪

♪ ♪

I basically got
a recorded confession.

And from there,
it went pretty quickly.

I made my report
mid-August probably.

And by mid-December,
he was arrested.

Are you serious?

Can you just put it
right up here?

Oh, my gosh.

It took me becoming an adult
to advocate for myself

and finally, you know, do what
all of the priesthood leaders

and my mom didn't do.

For 21 years, people knew
what this man was doing-

bishops, stake presidents,
men that know better.

You told one detective, and he
was arrested within six months.

- Yeah.
- Yeah.

What was his sentence?
And is he still in jail?

32 years.

But he was released
after about 151/2 years.

He finished
his parole in 2023,

and he was rearrested for
child sexual abuse materials,

- a lot of them.
- Shut up.

Yeah, so he's back in prison.

Mm-hmm.

I hope he dies there.

Because if he dies there,
that means that

he won't be a danger-

To anyone else.

Is that when you started
to look at the church's role

in protecting him?

That wasn't for many years.

♪ ♪

The criminal charges were
filed against my dad in 2004.

I did not look into
filing a civil lawsuit

against the church
for their role until 2020.

I wouldn't even consider it
for a very long time.

Like, no, the church
was just doing

what they thought was right.

The church professes
to have a direct line to God

and to know information
and to have access to God

that members don't have.

What on earth could I possibly
know more than these men?

As soon as you start
to feel like maybe

the leaders of the church
didn't do the right thing-

That critical,
little bit critical-

Yeah, a little bit critical,
exactly.

Then that instantly comes in.

Well, I can't criticize
the church.

- Right, absolutely not.
- That's because-

Well,
it's the covenant we make

- in order to attend the temple.
- Yeah.

And it's not even
a conscious thing.

Yep.

It's instantly,
you know, I would think,

shouldn't they have done more?

And then I would be like,
I need to read

my scriptures more because
I must be missing something...

- Yeah.
- The way it is.

It's run by Jesus Christ.

So who wants to give notes
to Jesus Christ?

Exactly, if you're Jesus,
I'm not going to tell you

- you're wrong.
- Yeah.

I'm not going to
be like, hey,

man, that was a bad decision.

Like, go back and rethink that.

Are you sure?
Are you sure?

- Absolutely not.
- Yeah.

- No.
- Exactly.

OK, and then
you align yourself

to that decision
no matter what it is.

And lean not unto
our own understanding

but unto his and unto the Lord.

And I believe that
was my mom's outlook.

Her outlook was they are
direct conduits of God.

So whatever decision they make,
that is the decision

- that God would make.
- Mm-hmm.

Well, that was your mom's
conduit because that's

what we were taught
still today.

Yeah, yeah.

Never mind that he's, you know,
abusive and, you know,

harming you and your children.

♪ ♪

She got to be in it today!

- There was a moment where
I looked at myself as a child

as a separate entity.

I could recognize
that what was done

to her was not right.

And so I thought,
you know, I might not be able

to do anything about it.

I might not be able to
make them take me seriously,

but I want to try.

So that's when
I contacted a lawyer.

One of the things
that I hoped to come out

of the lawsuit with the church
was some accountability.

Even just an acknowledgment-

you know, we did have
a responsibility,

and, you know,
we didn't do the right thing.

Let's make sure we do the
right thing from here on out.

That didn't happen,
but we went through mediation

and came to a settlement.

It definitely felt
very dehumanizing

and humiliating
to hear my trauma

- being talked about in...
- Terms of dollar amount.

In terms of money, but
then also being haggled over.

The attorney from
Kirton McConkie

that did my deposition
had the most smug face.

Did they offer
any explanation

for things that the church-

No, the church
has no responsibility.

And that was
their official statement.

- That was their whole point.
- That was.

The church has
no responsibility.

Mom should have done something.
Why didn't she?

Yeah, they threw her
under the bus.

- They really did.
- Big time.

They really did.

But I don't think
the thought ever

entered her mind that the
church had done anything wrong.

- Yep.
- She still grapples with it.

Yep.

We're trained
to think this way.

This is what you're bred into.

It's conditioning.

I still struggle
to deconstruct it right now.

Like, there has to be
an explanation for this.

You know, the people
that I went to church with

cared about children and
would never turn a blind eye.

But the truth is, as much as
they may care about children,

they care about
the church more.

Yes.

And I think that's hard
for people to understand.

Like our allegiance
to the church,

which we also say
is our allegiance to God,

is the strongest.

So any other directive
is less important.

That's what it felt like.

And that's why I'm not going
to shut up about it still.

Like, OK, cool.
You gave me a settlement.

- That means jack shit to me.
- Yeah.

Like my story,
our story, is important.

Your role in our abuse is real,

and it needs to fucking change
so that other children

are not hurt the same way
that we were.

I have mixed feelings
about the Church today.

There is a lot of good
in the people of the church,

but the corporation
of the Church

of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints

is harmful, deceitful,
and I do see it as evil.

I have removed
the church's control

and influence from my life,

and it's taken
a lot to get here.

But my life
is actually beautiful.

- The Church has
this very planned-out

future for everyone, and
outside it's so much messier.

And I've preferred that,
honestly.

We have wanted to talk about
this publicly for years

and have not been able
to find an avenue to do that.

It feels like a constant
reminder of no one listened.

- And you're listening.
- I am.

- I'm listening.
- And that feels huge.

You're both remarkable.

I'm so glad
you have each other.

As a mom of daughters,

your sisterly bond
means a lot to me.

I know your story
is going to change lives,

and I'm really grateful to you
guys for sharing it with me.

I just-
I feel really, like, heavy.

♪ ♪

Something shifted
in my conversation

with Lizzie and Jennie.

♪ ♪

I'm terrified
of the word cult.

If we could have
a conversation

around cult techniques
and cult behavior,

and if it didn't eradicate
the beautiful parts

of my childhood
and the wonderful things

my parents did for me,
I would just say it easily.

You know,
my parents were in a cult.

They raised our entire family
in this cult,

and it's really, really,
really hard to get out of.

And it doesn't mean that
my childhood was tainted

or that my parents
were bad people,

or that my family didn't have
real love and real experiences.

But I was raised in a cult.

Final thoughts,
take one A and B marker.

Oh, now I know
what this scene is.

Well, no fucking pressure.

I'll tell you
my final thoughts.

They're not going
to be what you think

my final thoughts are.

- I've been really toying
with this why me.

This whole time, you know,
in every conversation,

I'm just thinking, why me?

The why me really
made sense today,

and it kind of answered
that question for me.

You can shine
your light on stories

and create visibility
for people,

and the effect of that change
can be significant.

Change could happen.

I'm hearing these stories
for the first time,

and they change the way
that I view myself.

And I'm sorry.

You don't need to apologize.

- And definitely the church
that I dedicated my life to.

Giving victims a platform
and an opportunity

to tell their stories is,
I think,

the biggest act of resistance
that you could do.

These stories should be heard,

and the church is
never going to hear them,

but the world can.

Can you just
put it right up here?

- And that's who they should
put their faith in now,

these victims put their faith
into the church

and those institutions
for years,

and now I think they should
put their faith into humanity

and let their stories
be heard.

And I hope the world responds
with, like, kindness

and support
and love and outrage.

For every story
that's on FLOODLIT,

there are 1,000 others that
have just never come forward.

This is the beginning
of a reckoning.

This is the beginning
of a movement where people

see that they can come forward,

and their abuse
can be validated.

I feel like I've seen,
and I trust myself

enough to know that,
even if everyone around me

is saying that
the sky is black, to me,

it's crystal blue,

and it's so clear
what needs to be done.

♪ ♪

To all my

bad Mormons.

♪ ♪

I'm starting to gather
personal stories

from people who would like
to share them in some way.

We will use this platform
to shine a light on things

that I, as a lifelong member
of the church,

never knew existed.

My mission was one
of the most damaging

experiences of my life.

There's so many effects
from that that

I'm still trying to get over
and work through.

I started getting dozens
of, like, texts, calls.

We had a car follow us.

My dad would tell me, like,
you need to go get your mom

and bring her home to us.

Our eternal family
depends on it.

He took me to multiple
polygamist settlements.

They wanted to give
our son up for adoption

to a worthy temple.

- To my older brother.
- Yeah.

It's crazy.
And it goes so high up.

It goes into politics.

I mean, it's just
a whole big thing.

I don't know where
I'm supposed to go

or what I'm supposed to do.

I haven't really had
many people to talk to.

♪ ♪

I just got this text
from somebody

that wants to remain
totally anonymous

and sent a different name,
but that he's a

sex worker
for Mormon leadership.

I'm a high-end gay escort.

A lot of the Mormon leadership
who run the organization

are my clients.

I'm not just talking
about bishops

or stake presidents,
temple presidents,

and, yes,
even general authorities.

I don't believe this.

A general authority
of the church

using a high-end gay escort?

That's like an exposé.

That's "National Enquirer"
shit, you know?

They come to me
because I create a safe space

for the leaders
to feel love and acceptance,

and then they go back to church

and teach homophobia
from the pulpit.

They are causing great harm.

For me, it's an emergency.

Hearing all of these stories

from people
all over the world,

If I get really angry about it,

the church is just
not going to listen to me

and label me a heretic,
apostate, crazy person.

So I have to follow
their lead

in terms of the level
of action.

I'm just going to say,

are you willing
to meet with me?

I never thought I'd be
in this position ever, ever.