All language subtitles for Surviving.Mormonism.with.Heather.Gay.S01E02.The.Heighest.Level.of.Heaven.1080p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DDP2.0.H.264-Kitsune_Subtitles01.ENG

Oh, wow.
That is beautiful.

And still amidst it all,
I can't deny

that God exists, you know?

♪ ♪

And I'm, like, still mad

that they took God
away from me.

I just feel like everything
is loaded now, you know?

Like a sunset isn't just,
like, a beautiful sunset.

It's, like, somehow tainted.

I used to just think
God is good.

God is great.

You know, he created
the Earth and the heavens

and loves me unconditionally,

and if I just follow his plan,
everything will work out.

And I'm hearing
more and more and more

about people
that follow his plan,

and it was a map to nowhere.

And now I have to, like,
start rebuilding

my connection to God
with a completely different map

and no compass
and no idea where to go

or what direction.

You know, I'm not sure
what the next chapter will be,

but I just feel sad
that I wasted so many years

trying to be a good Mormon
rather than just

trying to be a good person.

The house is on fire,
and if we don't pull

these bodies out, there's
going to be devastation.

I get DMs, I get emails,
I hear over and over and over

how the Mormon Church

has affected
and hurt so many people.

People are not born gay.
Period, end of discussion.

- The guy that was
teaching conversion therapy

for and on behalf
of the church

was actually gay all along.

Like, if there's one message
I want to make sure

gets said over and over
and over,

you cannot heal
the gay out of a person.

You just can't.

- While I didn't experience
conversion therapy,

I know a lot of people
that did, including Ben.

I heard that Ben
had a story that was

really critical of the church.

You know, so many people
reach out to me, Shane,

and, like, you and Ben
are the people in my life.

And I'm hearing stories from
everyone all around the world,

and I'm not sitting down
and hearing

the most important stories.

Would he be open
to sharing it with me?

- You know what?
I don't know.

- What scared me so much
about Ben's story

was that what he was
talking about was so dark,

and that was just a reality
that was overwhelming

for me to face.
So I pulled away.

- I told my bishop
when I was 14

and also mentioned
some sexual abuse

that had happened
by my neighbors.

He didn't tell anyone,
not even my parents,

but put me into conversion
therapy at that time.

- Seven years
into my marriage,

I told my eternal companion

about my desire
to be with men.

She told me if I left,

I'd never see
our daughter again,

so I stayed
for eight more years.

- My father confronted me
and asked

if I had same sex attractions.

I denied it, but he scolded me
for being effeminate,

and my church bishop told me
to control my mannerisms.

- Deep down inside,
I knew something

just didn't feel right.

I ended up coming out
to my mission president,

and that was a horrible idea.

- He would ask questions
like, do you masturbate?

Do you watch pornography?

Are you sexually pure?

And if not,
what have you done?

There was still
a part of me that

was wanting to destroy

that feeling
that I had towards men.

So I had discovered
conversion therapy.

It feels more like
an expression of faith

to go to conversion therapy.

That's what motivates
a lot of these men.

That's what motivated me.

I didn't want to go
to conversion therapy.

And being forced
into a camp to deprogram me,

it struck the fear
of God in me.

The next four years were the
worst four years of my life.

- I felt like
I had to really fit

this mold of, like,

what a perfect little,
like, Mormon boy is.

- I don't want to be
that disappointment

and ruin my whole
family lineage.

Because that's the whole thing.

If you don't finish
your mission,

you disappoint
not only yourself,

but your whole lineage.

♪ ♪

You know,
when he kept saying, like,

letting down
his entire lineage,

like, I just know that
just rang so true to me.

I mean, that's how
I feel every day,

because I don't know why
they tell that to us so much.

But, like, ugh,

it's like we're holding up,
like, the weight

of all of our ancestors
by our behavior here.

And we're sold it, and we just
readily, readily buy into it.

♪ ♪

I remember specifically
when I realized that Ben

was in Shane's life to stay.

I remember we were in London
on a trip together,

and he confided in me that he
and Ben had said I love you.

The few things Shane
told me about Ben

was that he is successful
and smart

and came from a very, very
active Mormon family,

and he just kind of alluded
to that he had been

really traumatized
and abused by the church.

And I remember hearing it and
just not wanting to hear it.

It's made me realize how much
of my knee-jerk responses

are not my own,
but what I've been trained

to believe and do
by virtue of being,

you know,
raised in the Mormon Church.

I mean, I have believed
preposterous things

in the name of religion.

Mormons started
originally back east.

The first vision happened
in Palmyra, New York,

through Joseph Smith.

Joseph Smith claimed
he was visited

by angels who showed him
and only him gold plates

with ancient texts
telling him the story

of Jesus's second coming
in America.

Well, my whole life,
I heard stories

about Joseph Smith
being tarred and feathered

because he was a prophet,
and he was saying

things that the people
didn't want to hear.

They were reluctant
to accept the gospel.

But the truth is,
he was tarred and feathered

because two brothers
found him sleeping

with their 14-year-old sister.

That's why they were
run out of town.

They were run out
of every town that

they inhabited
because the townspeople

didn't want polygamy.

They didn't want Joseph Smith
and his charlatan ways.

When Joseph Smith
was killed in Illinois,

Brigham Young decided
that they were

going to move
the pioneers out west

and create a new Zion in Utah
in a new land

where they would live
and be able to worship

freely without persecution.

This historical story
of persecution

is something that's
deeply embedded in the Mormon

belief system even today,
and the idea of it colors

how we see ourselves
versus the outside world.

This is a process.

It's hard to detangle yourself
from the identity

that you crafted
for your entire life.

And it reminds me
of who I was when I first

heard Ben's story,
because those instincts

kicked in way more than,
wait a second,

that's not right.

I should ask him
more questions about it.

♪ ♪

Ben said he is ready
to talk with me.

Today, driving up there,
I would hope that

I'm in a place to talk
about this now.

I know that whatever
he was going to tell me

is probably going to be a lot,

maybe more than I could handle.

♪ ♪

Do you want to get
in your high chair?

Ah!

Should we try this?

Let's try banana.

♪ ♪

- A little taste test.
- Oh.

- Oh, good job.
- Mmm.

Yay.

Such a big girl.

- I mean, I've known Heather
for five years.

I don't know how she's
going to respond to my story.

I don't know
what level she's at

to look at the church
in that way,

because it's hard.

Even if you've left the church,
there's still an element of you

that that's been a part
of your life forever.

What I've learned,
that I feel like

it's true for most people,

they don't like their beliefs
to be challenged.

And I know with Heather,
it's not been easy

for her to walk away.
Can I get this?

Oh, let's go get the door.

- Hello.
- Hi.

- Hi, come on in.
- Hi. Hi, Dorothy.

- Say hi.
- Hi, love.

How are you?
It's so good to see you.

Hi.
How are you?

Oh, my gosh, Ben,
you look so good.

Thank you.
You do too.

- Hi, baby.
- Hi.

- How are you?
- Good.

- How are you?
- I'm good.

- Good.
- It's so good to see you.

- Good to see you.
- I'm glad to be here.

I'm going to go
put her down for a nap.

I'll just be upstairs.

Let's just go sit in here.

- I know I said it before,
but you've just been

on my heart and mind so much.

There's something
I never have told you.

When you first
started dating Shane,

I Googled you
and looked you up,

and I found
an interview you had done...

Yeah.

On some of your abuse
in the church.

Mm-hmm.

And I didn't want
to listen to it.

I just didn't want to believe
it could be true.

- It just scared me.
- Yeah.

It's difficult
to hear these things.

Like, I didn't want to believe
it was true either.

I spent most of my life
running from my truth.

The thing that you and I
have in common is our religion.

I mean, you say our religion
in common, but our identity.

Our identity.

There's no separation between

your church community,
your school community,

your neighborhood.
My whole world was right there.

I am from American Fork, Utah.

I am the fifth
of eight children.

The first neighborhood
I lived in,

it was just a small community.

And the town's
primarily Mormon,

so everyone that I grew up
around was Mormon.

My family is very religious.

The religion bled
into sports and school.

That started as soon
as I can remember.

I don't even know that
I looked at things as

so much being like
a neighborhood.

It was more like
if you were a part of our ward.

There's a ward that's, like,
your geographical area

that you go to church with
on Sunday,

and then there's a stake,

which is also
a geographical area,

which is made up
of multiple wards.

So wards, that was supposed to
be like your extended family.

So if they were in your ward,
you could trust them.

I never had that pure
childhood experience.

Because when I was four
is when I first

was sexually abused
by this man.

His name is Jess Hurtado.

Mm, Ben.

It lasted till I was nine.

The first time
I remember being abused,

I remember being
in my Sunday school class,

and a man coming in
and getting me and another girl

and taking us to a field
by the church.

And I can just
remember his face

being right there above mine.

I would have been laying on the
ground looking up to see him.

I don't remember physically
everything he did.

I just remember crying.

I remember looking at the girl
next to me, and she was crying.

God.

And I can never get
that image out of my head.

Jess was a member of our ward.

I knew who he was from church.

And as long as I was home
by a certain time,

I pretty much ran free
in that neighborhood.

And so it wasn't
always at church

or taking us from church.

It could have been
when I was out playing,

and I got taken
into this man's house.

♪ ♪

Sometimes I was abused alone.

Sometimes I was abused
with other kids.

Sometimes I remember
multiple adults being there.

But was this Jess guy
always there?

Yes, Jess was always there.

I didn't tell anyone because

I believed
that I had committed

sin that was next to murder.

Because even though
I was abused,

I had had sexual relations
with other people.

I've always viewed
that as something

that I've needed to repent of.

And then being
taught by my abusers

that if I were to speak out,

I would get excommunicated.

So while I didn't
fully understand what

any of that meant, I grew up
my whole entire life

fearing that
if anybody knew that,

I would be separated
from my family.

What we're taught
in the Mormon church,

they use this
metaphor of, like,

no empty chairs at the table.

And that chair at the table
is supposed to represent

you and your family in heaven.

Most of my life,
I have lived in fear

of being separated
from my family.

So I was so terrified
of ever talking about it

or ever saying
anything to anybody,

'cause I viewed it in the way
that it was in my head.

It was like,
it was a sin, right?

And if I told anyone,
like, I would eternally

be banished from my family.

♪ ♪

And so the abuse continued.

Oh, my gosh.

- This is one time
I remember being taken

away from church by Jess.

And it was presented to me
as like a Sunday school lesson.

And...

♪ ♪

He was there
with another girl.

And I remember Jess
and a couple other men

on each side of him.
I don't know who they were.

They were all, like,
dressed in temple clothes.

And it being taught to us

as it was like
a Sunday school lesson,

that this is what, like,
marriage looks like.

And she had, like, the veil,
like, pulled over.

This little 12-year-old girl?

♪ ♪

And he married her.

And then said, this is what
we do after we get married.

- And he raped her.
- Oh, my gosh, Ben.

♪ ♪

I'm so sorry.

Um, can I take a break?

Yes.

♪ ♪

That's a complicated answer.

I had been abused
until I was nine.

In my teenage years,
I knew I had attraction

to, like, men,
but my whole context

of how I view everything
is within

the framework of the church.

I felt like I was born
with a challenge

that I needed
to endure in this life,

and I somehow needed
to overcome that

so I could remain a member

in good standing
in the church.

When I was 23, I came out.

It wasn't like
a powerful moment for me of,

like, oh, I'm gay, you know,
telling that to my parents.

It was more of a heartbreaking
experience for me.

So when I told my parents,
I approached it as something

that needed to be fixed.

My two choices were therapy to
correct my sexual attractions,

or the consequences of not
doing that were to, like,

be eternally separated from

my family and from my church.

So then I went
to conversion therapy.

My parents ended up
contacting my neighbor,

whose name is Dean Byrd.

At the time,
and for many years,

he was the unofficial
aficionado for, like,

the LDS church when it came
to same gender attraction.

What is clear is that
some people can and do change.

The risk for harm
is not any different

from any other intervention.

I didn't know anything really
about conversion therapy,

but to me, it was like,

this is how
I'm going to save my soul.

I'd go in.
I'd talk about my attractions.

They said, you know,
maybe these attractions

never go away,
but you can reduce them.

The stupid thing they told me
is it's like petting a dragon.

It may be fun,
and it may be exciting,

but eventually the dragon
will turn on you.

Things didn't seem
to be getting better.

I didn't stop
trying to meet guys.

I felt like I was
ping ponged back and forth

between living
more of a gay life

and then also going to church.

So these two parts
of myself were just battling

back and forth for years.

I honestly believed from
some of my conversion therapy

that my attractions
or being gay

only existed
because of the abuse.

So I truly believed that,

if I healed from the abuse,

I'd be straight.

That you'd heal
from the gayness?

Yeah.
So...

Honey.

The church felt like
where I would do that.

It was like,
over and over again,

sexuality, the abuse,

go fix yourself
and you can rejoin us.

It was taught to you, too,
because we teach in the church

that if you are gay,
when you die, you won't be.

Yeah.

It'll go away
the minute you die.

That's how I felt.

That's what
the doctrine says.

- It is an earthly affliction.
- Yeah.

- I just knew that, like,
part of the reason

my life had gone
the way it had gone

is because I had
suffered trauma.

And so I was trying at
that point to deal with that.

I decided I'm going to get
the help that I need.

I know I was abused,

and I'm going to
start reporting it.

And that's when you started
disclosing what had happened

- to you as a little boy.
- Mm-hmm.

Well, how did that go over?

It was hard.

I reported what I just
told you to the bishop.

And Jess was a member of
my parents' stake at that time.

- And you named him.
- Yes.

And what happened?

When I reported that,
my bishop had told me

that he was concerned
because he was still

a member of their stake.

And I don't know, I guess
he was probably calling people,

but he obviously escalated it
to the stake president.

And my dad was
in the stake presidency.

Oh, jeez.

So he ended up going
with the stake president

to Jess's house
to confront Jess.

They told Jess that
I remember being abused by him.

And Jess said

he must have me confused
with someone else.

Tell him to call me,
and I'll clear it up.

And that's where it stopped.

That's what they came back
and said to you?

Well, I had an expectation
that people would take action,

and they didn't.

♪ ♪

When I reported,
and I'm talking to people,

I'm really looking them
to guide me

on how to handle
this situation.

I didn't even think
at that point

to take whatever information
I give them

and report it to the police.

The most important thing
to me was to resolve it

through the church.

Why didn't they take that
information and do something?

Why didn't they give it
to the police?

Why didn't they
discipline Jess?

And when no one took action

and no one helped me
in that journey,

and they put it all back on me,

I felt like there was
nothing I could do.

I felt helpless.
I felt like no one cared.

After that, I never wanted
to talk about Jess again.

I was devastated.

The focus wasn't Jess.

The focus wasn't, like,
let's take these people down.

Let's do this.
The focus was my sexuality.

How do we get you to be
spiritually whole again?

Was there a part of you
that was just, like,

you guys are missing the point?

Yeah, absolutely.

I was upset about it, and
it was really shocking to me

because going
into that was, like,

these are spiritually
chosen men who will

guide me to spiritual safety.

- And protect you.
- And protect me.

And I 1,000% believed that,
like,

with every single fiber
of my being.

Jess as a heterosexual,
head of household, dad

serves the image
and purpose of the church.

Growing up, I believed that
the head of the household

direct your family to eternity,
to salvation, and all that.

So you did not take down
the man of a family.

The church was more important
to protect than the children.

People never understand
why we go back to, you know,

the place where we were abused,
but that's the only place

we are taught
to look for answers.

It's the only structure
and plan we were ever given.

And I honestly
didn't think that

I had the answers for myself.

After I reported my abuse,

they told me
to make it to heaven

that I needed to repent
for being gay

and for acting out on it.

Looking back,
it was healing me enough

so that I could go through
a disciplinary council.

The disciplinary council
is a public flaying,

cataloging everything
you've ever done wrong.

Yep.

And that you should
be repentant for.

When you've done
something more egregious

than just a bishop
at the local level can handle,

and that would be
any sexual sin,

12 church leaders from
the general geographical area

sit at a table
in white shirt and tie,

and they're allowed to ask him
any question they want,

and they often do,

and it's basically a purging
of every sexual sin

in front of 12 men
that you've may

or may not
have ever met before.

Then they excuse you
and convene and discuss

amongst themselves
what they believe

the appropriate punishment
should be.

And a disciplinary council
can result in disfellowship,

which is abstaining
from the sacrament

and church callings,
excommunication,

or nothing at all.
Go home and go with God.

This is kind of a summary
of the disciplinary council.

Oh, my gosh.

And you can just read, like,
kind of what the summary

was from their perspective.

It doesn't say anything about
the abuse in the context

of, like, punishing Jess.

- The lifestyle you have
lived these past years

is not who you really are.

It will be very important
for you to continue

to walk toward
the greater light.

To completely
forsake the past,

you must now stay
completely clear

of any and all triggers
that could tempt you back,

that could harm your progress
on the path to

the full light of the gospel.

Reading it, it's like
because of the gospel

and because of us, you're going
to be able to be forgiven.

- It's just plug and play.
- Right.

This is how
we deal with anything

- that doesn't fit the mold.
- Yeah.

And it's victimizing you
all over again.

All over again.

But at the same time,
I felt like I had sinned

and I needed that repentance.

I let that be the focus too.

I believed this was my path
back to the kingdom of God.

And you believed that
because you were taught it...

Yeah.

And everything
and everyone in your life

reinforced it
to the point where

you're willing to give up
your future and your sexuality

just to get let back in
through the doors.

Yeah.

But everything that
I was writing in my journal

was like, I'm miserable.
I'm unhappy.

I feel so lonely, but this
is what God wants me to do.

I was so proud of myself that
I was able to make it back

to the temple,
but it came at a cost

that wasn't worth it for me.

And if I look
at what my life might

look like in that context
versus how I'm living it now,

I don't want that.

No one would
want that for you.

It's an emotional prison.

I finally got to the point
where I just broke.

I couldn't do it anymore.

And finally told myself,

you're gay, and that's OK.

I felt free.

At that point,
I just left the church,

- and I started dating.
- Daddy.

Yeah.

Wait.

Dorothy,
do you want to go outside?

Come here.
Let's put your sandals on.

Come here.

You want to go say hi
to the horses?

Yeah?
What does the horse say?

Neigh.

- Neigh.
- Oh, good job.

When I had gone back
to church in 2012,

these gay friends posted a
bunch of pictures on Facebook.

And in these pictures
was the most beautiful

human that I'd ever seen.

And though I didn't know
this at the time,

I just kept thinking,
where were you when I was gay?

Which is funny.

And I never saw him
again after that.

- Oh, wow.
- OK, look.

You see the horses?

- So fast forward
four years later,

we matched on Tinder,
and he accepted all of me.

And so I felt like Shane's
the first person

I ever was able
to truly be myself with.

We haven't been
apart since then.

- OK.
- All done.

Should we go back in?

- OK, let's go.
- Hi.

If you were to go back
in through the doors

today and say,
I have a beautiful daughter,

a companion
who I love and cherish,

and I want to be active
in the church,

we know what
they would say to you.

Yeah.
I'm not welcome.

The fact that Jess seemed
to have more value

than I did because he was
a straight, married man,

let's protect him.
I don't understand that.

We can believe that
it happens in other religions,

but it can't happen in ours.
We're the true church.

Right.

We have
the spiritual guidance.

We have the true prophet.

We have the modern day
revelation.

And they can't fully open
the door to that happened.

And if it did happen,
it happened when I was a kid,

and it was bad, but
it doesn't continue anymore.

The fact that these things
happen to me as a child,

now, because I'm an adult,
they seem to not matter.

How many times
was it reported before?

How many church leaders knew?

Had they taken action and
had they done the right thing,

could it have saved me?

Could it have saved other kids
from being abused?

Because that's how
I'm thinking about it.

Where is this motherfucker?
Like, for real?

He still lives
in their stake.

He's still walking
among the living?

Yes.

He could come up
to my house today.

I cannot believe that, Ben.

I didn't feel like
there was any justice.

Jess was in their congregation.

Home with his kids
and dinner,

eating dinner and, you know,
testifying in church.

And going
to church on Sunday.

- Yeah, probably teaching kids.
- Yeah.

So I never felt safe
publicly talking about this.

I have never named him
outside of reporting.

But I have a friend
who did take Jess on.

- Who was abused by Jess?
- Yes.

And accused him publicly?

And did take on the church
in a sense.

When?

My friend Ginger
took Jess on in 2017.

There was a local news article

that came out about someone

who had won a civil case
against Jess.

And I felt vindicated.

♪ ♪

I didn't know her before that,
but I reached out to her

and said,
thank you for sticking up

and standing up for herself
and in that case.

♪ ♪

Doesn't that make you feel
like everything

- I've said was true.
- Yes.

- Let's go get him.
- Yeah.

And it encouraged me
to keep speaking.

- Yeah.
- Naming Jess.

So when I found
that information out,

I sent it to my parents.

And I said, look,
Jess is capable of doing

this type of stuff to people,
and it's now on public record

that he did.

Well, now what do you think?

And they took that article,
and they went

and they met with
the stake president

and said, he's in our stake.

He's got this evidence
against him now.

And then in 2019,
they started pursuing

disciplinary action with Jess.

♪ ♪

So on the church level,
excommunication.

That's, like,
the worst you could get.

If you get excommunicated,
your baptism,

your temple covenants,
everything that you've done,

it's erased.

But they said
this person's repenting,

this person did this, but
they're trying to do better,

everyone would have
been on board with that.

He'd still be an active
member of the community

and go to church.

♪ ♪

Talking to
the stake president,

I said,
what I would like you to do

is take all the information
I give you,

all the information
anyone else gives you,

and I think you should
turn this information

over to the police.

That's what you should do.

He said they couldn't do that.

How are you still not taking
legal action against him?

Even if you can't
press charges against him,

you can provide all this
information to the police.

Why are you not doing this?

I don't think
they're interested

in doing the right thing.

I think they're interested
in protecting themselves.

♪ ♪

I've reported to the church,
and Jess

still lives
in my parents' stake.

And one of the reasons
that the church

can get away with it so much

is because
they have an attorney.

The church has directed them
to poke as many holes

as they can
in the victim's story

and discredit them
so much to where

they can't stand
a chance to protect

the good name of the church.

They are a billion
dollar institution.

No lone voice
stands a chance...

- No.
- Against that system.

These stories are hard to tell.
They're hard to hear.

And I just-
I'm like, with you 100%.

I'm so grateful that we were
able to have this conversation,

and I do feel like
it was long overdue.

And I want you to know
that I believe you

and I want to be here for you,

and I want to fight
the people that hurt you,

and I wish I had
protected you sooner.

♪ ♪

And I'm sorry.

Thank you.

And you don't need
to apologize.

I do.
But I love you.

I love you too.

And it's a journey, and
it's a journey for everyone.

♪ ♪

Gosh, that was
overwhelming to hear.

That was a lot.

♪ ♪

I just feel like crying.

♪ ♪

It's like all his dreams
came true,

but he's still so sad,
you know?

And there's still so much pain.

And I want to help ease that.

♪ ♪

I feel like I'm pulling back
layer by layer,

and there were
so many layers to Ben's story

that I just can't even-

I just can't process
what to do next.

The church, because there's
so much familiarity

and so little questioning
of people's integrity,

if you're a member
of the church,

we assume that you are
honest, right, truthful,

and fair and true
in all things.

You know, we believe
that about each other.

And so to think that
that type of evil

is lurking and able to,
like, hide in plain sight,

it just made me question
my entire childhood.

I went to church in my ward,

and it was always
these charismatic guys

that would have all the kids
over for sleepovers,

and the kids would say,
he's coming out

and sleeping with us
on the tramp.

And we think, oh,
he's such a nice guy.

I mean, there was
a youth leader throwing

Kool-Aid parties all the time,

and we were all encouraged
to attend.

And it turned out,
years later, that guy had been

molesting girls in the ward.

You heard stories,
but you just thought

not to me and not to mine.

And I just think that
when you are in a church

that values obedience
over everything else,

it is a safe haven for adults
to take advantage of children.

♪ ♪

If this happened to Ben,
it could have happened

to thousands of children.

It happened from
when I was six till ten.

He abused me for a long time.

He was, like, giving me
just really weird vibes.

He kept being like,
tickle my back.

And me,
no, I don't want to.

And you go through things
like what I went through

as far as being raped,
the immediate thing

that happened was my dad
called the bishop.

I went and made
an appointment with my bishop.

I remember
telling his bishop,

hey, he's done this to me.

I went to the bishop
and I said,

this happened to me.
I didn't pursue it.

It wasn't my fault,
but it happened to me.

My bishop was
probably the closest,

one of the closest people
to God in my mind,

and I trusted him.

- He first lectured me on
the importance of modest dress

and standards
and then counseled me

to hurry up and get married
so I'd stop being

a temptation
for the young men.

- Family members confessed
abuse to their bishops,

and it was allowed to continue
for years because the bishops

aren't required to report it.

The bishop believed him.

He never asked
for my side of the story.

The bishop basically
talked me out

of pressing charges.

- The church
does not care about crime.

They're not reporting crime.

They're not concerned
with local law enforcement.

They're concerned
with their set of rules

and their church laws.

They're concerned about sin
and compensation for sin.

And I think that is a scenario
that allows predators

to hide in plain sight.

- As Mormons,
we're taught that your bishop

is there to serve
your temporal,

spiritual, emotional needs.

He can save your family.
He can save your marriage.

He can protect your child.

He can use God's wisdom
and God's help

to solve the problem.

I know when we had crises

in our home
or with our family,

the first call was always
to the bishop,

and he'll help us know
what to do.

Men are allowed to ask you

any question they want to
as they go around.

- My whole life, I assumed
that the criminal authorities

were never involved because

nothing bad
was ever happening.

I think that we are trained
to just look the other way

because no one
ever talks about it.

And if they do talk about it,

we tend to just
not believe them.

I feel guilty
that I was so naive,

and I feel repulsed
that I cared

so little to look
any further than what

my church leaders told me.

I just took everything
they told me as fact.

Man's laws are nothing
compared to God's laws.

The police aren't going to take
as much action as my bishop is.

My bishop speaks for God.

He's going to keep me safe.

He's going to guide us
through this.

He's going to make sure
that we can,

you know,
do this the right way.

So why are the bishops

not reporting crime
to law enforcement?

When somebody is
physically abused,

whether it's a child
or a woman or anybody,

when a bishop hears that,

they have to call
the bishops hotline.

So there's a hotline that
only bishops have access to.

There's a church hotline

you call for
pretty much anything.

- Call the helpline when you
believe there has been abuse,

and you need
to talk with someone

who can answer basic questions
about this grievous problem.

- The helpline stands at the
center of an elaborate system

to divert
child sex abuse complaints

away from law enforcement,
and instead send them

to attorneys for the church.

- They have lawyers
on staff 24 hours

to kind of triage calls.

- Yeah,
so the church's law firm,

the hotline would just
basically give them advice,

but most of that advice

amounted to
helping them bury it.

- Even if you have experience
dealing with abuse issues,

to protect the child,
yourself, and the church,

you must call the abuse
helpline as often as needed.

- Now what we're going to do
is we're going to

read the protocol
for abuse helpline calls

that is not public information,

that is not shared
with all church members,

and I think it's scandalous.

The first question is,

did the abuse happen
on church property?

Question number two,
does your call concern

child sexual abuse
which may have occurred

at a church-sponsored
activity?

I mean, it's obvious
that the focus is

on things that would
be most likely

to make the church liable.

♪ ♪

I can wrap my mind around an
institution or a corporation,

like, protecting its interests,
but I cannot wrap my mind

around a church
instituting a system

where you call lawyers

to help with your abuse
and thinking that that is,

you know, what Jesus would do.

I'm pretty sure Jesus
would not, you know,

have a law firm suffer
the needs of his disciples.

And there's a big disconnect
there for me.

♪ ♪

It should be when
someone reports a crime,

you call the local authorities.

And then if you need
spiritual help

or guidance after you've
reported it to the authorities,

then call us.

The last person
in that equation

should be a law firm
that's there

to serve and protect
the interests

and reputation of the church.

Someone needs
to serve and protect

the interests of the children
that are being passed around.

♪ ♪

- Nick Jones
is a former bishop

in the Mormon Church.

Bishops never get up
and step down

from their position, ever,

and they certainly don't do it
during testimony meeting.

It was a really big deal.

- Hi, Nick.
- Hi.

- How are you?
- Good. How are you?

Doing well.

I just watched your video
for the first time

of you at the pulpit.
Yeah.

I had never seen it.

I know it went kind of viral,

but I thought
it was just, like,

balls of steel,
very, very cool.

And you rarely see that.

Well, thank you.

Just doing what you feel
is the right thing to do.

Sometimes it looks
like courage, right?

It looked like courage.

I think it took
a lot of courage.

I mean, I have never spoken
to a bishop

that has left and, like,
spoken on the other side.

I mean, how long had you been
a bishop when you left?

- Two and a half years.
- Two and a half years.

Two and a half years.

I saw things
that I just was like,

this is happening.
What?

You know, eye opening
on a number of levels.

Because when you're a bishop,
you see it all.

You see the inner workings
of it all.

And, man, it just
didn't sit well with me.

I was a bishop
for three weeks.

Like, my third Sunday,
a 17-year-old girl

came to me who just had sex,
like, the night before.

- Oh, my God.
- And she just felt terrible.

And she's just bawling.

And then she asked me
this question

that just triggered me.

She says, well, don't you
need to know the details?

Come to find out,
the previous bishop

is asking details.
Did he orgasm?

Did you orgasm?
You know?

That made my stomach sick.

But she looked at me like,
you don't need to know?

And I'm like, no,
I don't want to know.

- When I look back
at my childhood,

I got called in when
I was a teenager all the time

because my bishop kept having
this spiritual impression

that I was masturbating,

and he just wanted
to make sure I wasn't.

I mean, even though
I was in a closed room

with a 50-year-old man
who was my dad's best friend

directly asking me
about masturbating,

I made a choice
right then and there

to not feel weird about it
and not make him creepy

because that's the last thing
I wanted is

to feel that way
about my bishop.

I didn't want to be critical
of him either.

I knew that wasn't
allowed at all.

He's our bishop.

You know, you didn't ask
to be put in that position.

I'm assuming you got zero
training in that position.

Zero.

I mean, I'm shooting
from the hip.

- I've never done this before.
- No idea what to say.

- I've never had
a 17-year-old in my life

and how to deal with that.

The system is set up to give
ordinary men great power

with zero training.

So your dentist
pays his tithing,

shows up to church,
has well-behaved kids,

and, all of a sudden,
he finds himself

bishop of a ward.

And he's just a dentist,
and now he's dealing

with sex abuse and crime.

And he has zero training,
zero instruction,

except a hotline to call.

So when you were a bishop,
did you have access

to, like, the helpline
for sex abuse?

- Or what was that?
- Yeah, the helpline.

It's crazy.

I had a guy in the ward

whose ex-wife
called me saying,

my ex-husband is a pedophile,
and he's in your ward.

And I had an email
from his daughter telling

of all the abuse he did.

I ended up calling the hotline
and I asked them,

- I said, look, what do I do?
- Well, yeah.

- I talked to the Kirton
McConkie law firm.

- Kirton and McConkie
is a renowned law firm

in Salt Lake City.

I happen to know it
on a personal level

because one of the arms
of Kirton and McConkie

is dedicated to, like,
policing and protecting

the word Mormon
and the trademarks

of the Mormon Church.

So when I tried
to sell sweatshirts

and mugs with the word
Mormon on it, you know,

they swooped in and sued me.

- I talked to McConkie maybe
three or four times,

plus text messages, and
he basically said, bishop,

you're pushing
your limits now.

You cannot do anything
unless you have proof

of abuse and
it's coming from somebody

who you have stewardship over.

Well, his daughter
lived in Texas,

and she was grown
at this time.

So unless the daughter
actually filed a report,

I couldn't do anything.

This is just a guy
who's just a bad guy,

and the church basically
just said, no,

you can't do
anything about it.

- It's not right.
- It's wrong.

It finally got
to the point where

I just couldn't do it anymore.

A convicted pedophile
in my ward.

His wife died of COVID
when she had her fourth baby,

a girl.
Four girls.

And she's dead, and
he lives with four girls.

Served seven years in prison.

And he calls me
at 1:00 in the morning,

says he wants to throw
his baby out the window

because he can't take
the crying anymore.

What did you do?

- Put on my suit
and went to his house.

- Did what bishops do.
- Oh, my gosh.

Yeah, that's what we do.

You know,
when we're in, we're in.

- Did you give him a blessing?
- Of course.

Gave him a blessing.

Gave him the best advice
I knew how to give him.

Well, yeah.

- I mean, it still haunts me-
still haunts me to this day.

He's on FLOODLIT now.

And what's the other guy
who raped his daughter?

Stake presidency member.

And they're on there.

I put them both on there.

So that's like a pedophile
list within the church?

- 100%.
Yeah.

Members in the church
who have been convicted

of forms of pedophilia,
whether it's child pornography

or actually acts
of sexual abuse.

Wow.

When Nick first mentioned
FLOODLIT on our call,

I thought it was some program
that the church had instituted

in order to keep track
of sexual predators

within the church and
to keep their members safe.

And I thought,
wow, how progressive.

Oh, so this is not
run by the church.

367 times LDS officials
allegedly hid abuse.

Oh, my gosh.
Oh, my gosh.

I'm only through, like, the As.

I'm not even-
there's so many.

I didn't have any idea
that abuse

was so prevalent in the church.

I heard about stories,

but never in numbers
like this.

This guy was inseminating
virgins with his sperm.

I mean, what the fuck?

And it got dismissed
with prejudice in 2021.

He admitted to it.

He admitted to it,
and it got dismissed.

A lawsuit filed by
multiple families accusing

the church of covering up
sexual abuse.

- Yeah, these families
claim the LDS church leaders

knew that one of its own
members was abusing children

but did nothing
to report the crime.

- This church knew
that these girls

were being sexually abused
and the subject

of pornographic videos.

The Mormon church did nothing
to stop the rapes. Nothing.

- Was well known
within the church

that Paul Adams
was abusing his children

and referred to this abuse
as Paul Adams misbehaving.

These bishops were told

to keep this a secret
for seven years.

- Family babysitter
Michael Jensen

sexually abused her four
and six-year-old boys

for two months back in 2008.

- How do you forgive
something like that?

I don't think that I'll ever
be able to forgive him.

- Five other families
and nine children

are suing the LDS church.

Their attorneys argue
LDS church members

actively covered up the abuse,

which continued
for over five years.

- This Mormon church
tried to say

that the church
had a religious right

to conceal sex abuse
of children they knew about

and children they cared for.

- Woman sexually abused
for years by her father

when she was a little girl
is now suing the Church

of Jesus Christ of
Latter-day Saints.

- She was told,
along with her mother,

not to disclose,
not to report it.

How is it right that so many
people knew what was happening

and just let it happen?

- It's almost like
they cover up sex abusers,

and the system functions
to cover up crime.

♪ ♪

- There was never a time that
I remember not being abused.

My earliest memories
are of abuse.

They reinforced to you
as the victim and child

a code of silence
to protect him.

- Oh, absolutely.
- No one called the police?

Mm-mm.

And I feel sad
that I was part

of the problem for so long.

And I guess I know
how devout I was

and what it would have taken
for someone

to make me think
or feel differently.

And I know deep down that
that's what we're up against.

And I'm scared
that I'm not enough.