All language subtitles for Surviving.Mormonism.with.Heather.Gay.S01E01.A.Bad.Mormon.1080p.AMZN.WEB-DL.DDP2.0.H.264-Kitsune_Subtitles01.ENG

Should have gotten
my nails done.

Docuseries people don't care
as much as "Housewives. "

Lately, it seems like Mormons

are having
a mainstream moment.

I think that a lot
of people right now

are associating Mormonism with
MomTok and these Mormon wives.

And so that's kind of
changed the landscape.

Really, the very first hugely

marketable influencers
were Mormon.

Get ready with me
using SHEGLAM products only.

- And then it was
Pink Peonies, Rachel Parcell,

Cara Loren, Hannah Neeleman,
Ballerina Farm.

Conservative values,
traditional homemaking roles,

just really a gendered
family structure

where they're home
with the kids.

It's intoxicating to watch,

because it seems
so simple and pure.

Just got done milking.

Got about 2 gallons.

And they seem so happy.

And it seems like, oh, this is
how it was always meant to be,

like watching an episode
of "Leave it to Beaver. "

That's not how
it really is, you know?

That's not really
what's happening.

It's a wolf
in sheep's clothing,

because it's exactly what
the church is going for.

You wanna have all of this?

Join the Mormon church.
You can have it too.

That wasn't my experience.

There's a huge misconception
about Mormonism,

that it is all unicorns
and rainbows

and functioning families.

But the truth is,
the church has done

a really good job of shaming
and sidelining its critics.

What that's created is
this marginalized community

that want to be screaming
from the watchtower,

but anyone who has
a contrary opinion

is shut out and silenced.

I mean, if people knew

what was really going on
in the church,

I think it would shock people.

- At the tone,
please record your message.

- Hey, Heather.
My name is David Matheson.

You don't know me.

Anyway, I'm hoping-
I know that you're

talking to people about their
experiences with the church.

Well, I've got one.
I hope we can meet,

and I'd really
look forward to it.

Thanks. Bye.

I'm headed over to this man
David Matheson's house.

The reason he was
reaching out to me

is to share his experiences
and share stories.

David Matheson was
one of the pioneers

of the gay conversion
therapy movement.

He sent me this voicemail
last night,

and there were
a lot of things that I just

felt immediately intrigued by.

He ran a program
that was very, very well-known

in the church called Evergreen,
which everyone knew,

like, Evergreen,
what Evergreen meant.

It meant Evergay,

and you went there
to, you know, try to change it.

About five years ago,
David came out as gay,

divorced his wife,
and denouncing the church.

The guy that was teaching
conversion therapy

for and on behalf of the church
was actually gay all along.

Nobody talks about negative
things within the church.

We don't discuss it.

We don't, you know, dig deep.

We don't investigate anything.

So while I heard about
all of these programs

and even had friends
that, you know, suffered

from same-sex attraction-

I hate even saying that,
but that's the language

that we used as members
of the church.

We didn't say,
my husband is gay.

We said, he's got this trial
and tribulation from God.

You struggle
with swear words, sister?

You struggle with coffee?

Well, my husband struggles
with sex with men.

I can't imagine
the ramifications.

He has to face
thousands of young men

showing up on his door, saying,
you know, what the fuck?

What life event made him
realize that he had to leave?

And I just really
wanna ask him

how that shaped the way
he views, you know,

his whole life.

I never thought it was gonna
look like this,

where people were looking to me
to be, like, the public voice

of Mormon critical thought.

What is it, flopping?
Or is it erect?

It's erect.
Yours is crooked, though.

It works the same in the end.

I don't really hide a lot from
who I am on "Real Housewives. "

Putting my life on TV
and exposing all of it

and kind of being forced
to leave my faith

and talk about it publicly
shaped who I became.

I don't wanna ever
take away from you, like,

our faith and our Mormonism.

It's come down
to where I'm just like,

I owe it to these girls
to, like,

be so honest about
where I'm at.

And that's been both, like,
incredibly transformative,

you know, but also,
it's been really hard.

Do you hear from Mormons
around Salt Lake City

who are mad about
what you say about it?

Yeah, I do.
I hear from them a lot.

A lot of them are
my family members.

So the only time I've really
ever spoken publicly

about, like,
a lot of my problems

with the faith outside
of the television show

was when I wrote the book
"Bad Mormon. "

Has there been any response
from the church?

The church is suing me
for use of the trademark.

So there's been some-
I'm currently in litigation.

There's not a lot
of mainstream Mormons

that have written critical
memoirs of their faith.

The outreach
from former Mormons

and other people
does not stop.

There's just an endless sea
of people

who have been hurt
by the church,

and no one's done
anything about it.

We were going to an institution
that was homophobic.

It was bigoted.
It was misogynistic.

And there was no way
for me to explain

that away to my children.

What fascinates me is
the church's ability

to get away with it
and for everyone

that speaks out against it

to just end up screaming
into the void.

Don't need to, like,
give the whole spiel.

We're just gonna have...

- But, like, the book
became a vehicle for me

to meet people
all over the world

with whom the message
had resonated.

I'm here to support
my other bad Mormons.

- That was the first time
I had an awareness

of the platform
and the position I was in.

I get DMs. I get emails.

I get stopped at the mall.

I get stopped
at the grocery store.

I hear over and over and over
how the Mormon church

has affected and hurt
so many people.

My kids were taken.

I went against my bishop,
asking for help,

and he would just rake me
over the coals every month.

And she told me
she would rather have

a dead son than a gay son.

We were told that we were
something called Lamanites.

They were cursed
with a dark skin.

And he taught
those who practice

in interracial marriages
should be killed,

along with their kids.

They took the baby away.
They wouldn't let me see him.

I tried to burn the memory

of what he looked like
in my mind

so that I wouldn't forget
what he looked like.

- I just had this onslaught
of an ocean of pain

and an ocean of trauma.

I hear about everything,
from adoption services

and the way LDS social
services has hurt people,

how eternal marriage and
patriarchy has hurt people,

how conversion therapy
has hurt people.

The roles of women-

divorce, abuse, betrayal,

misogyny, bigotry, racism.

Every DM, I wanted to, like,
meet the person in person

and, like, weep,
like biblical women weeping,

just, like, weeping
for what was gone

and what we had hoped for

and what was lost
and what was gained.

The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints

is considered
a mainstream religion.

We believe in concepts
like Heavenly Father

and Jesus Christ
and heaven and hell.

But beyond that,
we believe that

there are three separate
levels of heaven,

and you have to live
a life of perfection

in order to achieve
the celestial kingdom

and live together
with your family forever.

The Mormon doctrine
lays out a path to perfection.

You are asked to keep
very, very specific rules

in order to be
purged of all sin

and be perfect and with God.

A man has to marry a woman
and have children

and live together forever,

making sure you meet all
of the standards of the church.

You know,
your church attendance,

your worthiness, your purity.

Not just sexual purity,
but purity-not smoking,

not drinking,
not drinking coffee,

not swearing,
not looking at porn,

not looking at R-rated movies.

Devout Mormons
masquerade and appear

to be fun-loving, easygoing
soccer moms and dads.

We don't wear any
of our devotion externally.

We have it all internally.

Secret, sacred,
symbolized garments,

secret, sacred temple rituals,

secret, sacred handshakes
among members,

our own language, our own way
of addressing each other,

our own rules, our own laws.

Everyone associated
with Mormonism

struggles with
all these rules,

because if you break them,
you risk being ostracized

by your church,
your community,

and even your family.

The church projects
this image of inclusivity,

acceptance, love,
humanitarian service,

and diligence.

But if we were to take
the PR spin off of all of it,

the doctrine is, at its core,
homophobic, misogynistic,

and deeply, deeply bigoted.

A year or two ago,

I was still feeling
entrenched in shame

that I chose
the lights and glamour

over the dutiful role
of devout Mormon mother.

I never wanted to, like,
leave or speak out

or criticize
the Mormon church.

If the Mormon church
wasn't fucked up,

I would have stayed.

But after
the onslaught of people

that have reached out to me,
I just

feel like I can't look away.

The time is now to uncover
all of these secrets

and to give voice
to all of these atrocities

that are being committed
and to say,

not now, never again.

- I grew up
with same sex attraction,

but I didn't want it.

I wanted something
more than what I was.

So I began on a journey
to find the truth

that could help me
become a whole man.

I went to seminars
and weekend retreats.

I read books. I got married.

Eventually, I became
a counselor myself.

Now I find myself here.

I'm 50 years old.

I'm happily married
with a thriving family.

I have helped thousands of men
in their journeys

to overcome
same-sex attraction.

And now I'm here to help you.

- David Matheson
has been a pioneer

in the field of overcoming SSA
for over 15 years.

Wow!

I think, first of all,
I'm overwhelmed

by the arrogance
of the whole thing.

Wow, that feels
really terrible.

♪ ♪

Oh, my God!

I believed this
for a long time.

- Oh, my gosh.
- Hi!

Heather.

Oh, my gosh!

I'm so glad to be here.

- Thank you for having me.
- Thank you so much. Wow!

This is awesome.

Do you want some coffee?

If you're gonna have some,
yeah, I would love some.

Yeah, I made some 'cause
I thought you might want some,

and I definitely need some.

Okay.
Let me know if that's enough.

Okay.

So when did you start
drinking coffee?

This is-I mean,
the day you left?

Actually,
when the whole thing went down,

when I got outed
and all of that...

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.

Start-so when you got outed?

You were out-like,
it wasn't voluntary?

It was not voluntary.

I'd divorced my wife already.

And you divorced her
because you said I-

It was time for me
to be with a man.

I just couldn't do it
with a woman anymore.

So I started dating guys.

And then someone,
I guess, texted a gay-

an ex-gay watchdog,
a guy who watches guys like me

to see, you know,
when we foul up,

and then he's gonna out us.

It was nuts.

Like, instantly,
like, overnight.

A bombshell on
the conversion therapy world.

A popular Utah therapist,
who, for years,

tried to convert gay men

is now looking
for a gay partner.

- In Utah,
we meet David Matheson,

the intellectual godfather
of gay cure therapy.

- People are not born gay.
Period. End of discussion.

No one is born gay.

There was no way
I was going to accept gay.

It just wasn't gonna happen.

So the guy gives me
ten minutes,

and I come up with
this super lousy statement.

- Oh, my gosh.
- And I give it to him.

And then he puts that out.

And then I'm getting calls
from newspapers

and from TV shows.

Well, are you glad you left?

I'm really glad I got out.

I can't even tell you
how glad I am that I got out.

So what made you leave?
Like-

Pain.

I'm gonna try
not to cry a whole lot.

I spent my life
being someone I wasn't.

Do you know how hard it is
at 62 to look back

and go, for so many years,
I believed

and taught something that
I now know is completely wrong?

It's really painful
when we say, like,

recognizing that
you've been living your life

as someone
you aren't actually are,

and that you're
really good at it.

That's what I wanted
to talk to you about.

When I heard your voicemail,
what really resonated with me

was that we'd kind of grown up

with the same
cult of personality.

- We did. We did.
- You know?

We grew up, like,
trying our hardest

to be the best Mormon
we could be,

despite the obvious deterrents.

- Problem. Yeah.
- Yeah.

- The Matheson family
goes back

several generations
in Mormonism.

I grew up in this area

in a very Mormon-centric
universe.

And I ingested it completely.

I was very into studying
the scriptures,

diving into the doctrine.

You were raised in a church
that taught you

there wasn't such a thing
eternally as gay.

The feeling one gets
when one reads this stuff is,

gay is bad
because it's just disgusting.

This is an unnatural thing.

Do you think God
to be that way?

I admitted to myself
that I was gay

when I was, like, 23.

The thought was,
I could be gay if I want to,

but I don't want to.

23, after you'd served
a mission.

After I'd served a mission.
I get married.

They tell me
you probably don't need

to tell her about
the same-sex attraction,

because it's probably
just gonna go away.

You told yourself that,
or someone-

They told me. My bishop.

And he says,
don't worry about it.

That'll go away
when you start having...

- Sex.
- Normal sex.

- Oh.
- People come into the church

with same-sex attraction
issues,

and they tell you,
stop sinning.

Don't do it.

You should marry a woman,
and she'll cure you.

A year later,
I'm like, it didn't go away.

A year into our marriage,
I told her

that I was attracted to guys.

She cried and said,
I love you.

We'll make it work.
Let's just keep going.

And so we did.

We were taught that
God loves all of His children.

A loving God would not
set people up to fail

by making them homosexual.

I must believe
that this homosexual thing

is just a phase, and that God
has a way to change that.

And so I wanted
to become a therapist.

So I started developing
my own stuff.

And the idea there
was that homosexuality

can be changed if you heal
the wounds that caused it.

So shame, trauma, PTSD,
all that kind of stuff,

if we heal those wounds,
the homosexuality will go away.

Which, I mean,
it's that belief

that leads people to conversion
therapy, I would think.

- It is. It is.
- You know?

So the first thing I was
involved with was Evergreen.

So Evergreen started-it was
a group of men who were LDS

and were gay
and didn't wanna be gay

because they wanted to live
the standards of the church.

So they got together, and they
started supporting each other.

I got involved
just as a participant,

and then I was on their board,

and then I was
their executive director.

So I became Mr. Evergreen.

I think our larger society
has just swallowed

that if you have
homosexual feelings,

you're gay.

And if you're gay,
you were born that way.

So Evergreen was
this fully LDS group,

and it was
pretty intensely Mormonism,

the atonement of Christ,

"you can't be gay"
conversion therapy.

I have clients that drive
nine hours to see me,

because there's just
no one out there doing it,

because it's
politically incorrect.

So not only was I
a conversion therapist,

but whether we liked it or not,
we became the poster couple

for mixed orientation marriage,
where one person's homosexual

and one person's heterosexual.

And they're trying
to make it work.

Eventually, when I found
a few different types

of therapy over the years,

my relationship with my wife
did improve.

I don't think
I was more attracted to her,

but I was less freaked out,
and I was less depressed also.

What we're saying is,
we are making it work.

And we were saying that
because it was,

except it really wasn't.

But we thought it was.

So Evergreen wasn't
organized by the church,

but they were
very involved in that.

Well, yeah, I thought
they were run by the church.

The church never really
supported it openly.

- The support-
- What do you mean?

They were supporting me
financially

in that bishops still paid
for some of their members

to come see me.

The church provided

mental health services
for members.

And very often,
those mental health services

were paid for by the church.

A bishop is calling.

This guy, we're gonna have
to excommunicate him

because he keeps
acting out with other guys.

The bishop would give you
the money

to attend a conversion therapy.

Yes, because we can't have
people in our ward being gay.

I don't know-as a bishop,
I don't know what to do,

so we're gonna send him
to Matheson.

He's gonna clean up the mess
created by the theology,

but we're not admitting
that that's what's going on,

- if that makes sense.
- Like plausible deniability.

Yeah.

So if I was, like,
a 19-year-old kid, Mormon kid,

I'm 99% positive I'm gay-

at the height
of your conversion therapy,

what would you have said to me?

As you're describing it now,
there's this part of me

that is just, like,
on the floor,

'cause I don't even
wanna think about it.

- Over time, I realized
there were a lot of things

that could be taught or
experienced on a group level.

So I helped develop
workshops and presentations.

And then one of the big things
that I helped develop

was called-
is called Journey Into Manhood.

- We return now to something
called Journey Into Manhood,

a retreat that claims
it can help men

alter their feelings
of sexual attraction

for other men.

- It was a huge retreat
with a lot of processes.

Look at the outside
of this man.

Look at his
physical appearance.

We're going to dig
into your relationship

with your mom and your dad,
and we're gonna try

to find out
where the problems are.

And we're gonna try
to fix that whole thing,

and you're gonna be straight.

So you think if I come here

and I do everything
you're telling me to do,

I will be able to get married
and have children

and live the life that I've
been told I'm supposed to live.

I would have said,
yeah, yeah, absolutely.

We thought we really needed
to help them

feel more masculine,
which means they needed

to be closer to their father.

They needed more distance
from their mother.

The entire client base,
they were all there

because their religion
told them

it was not okay to be gay.

I would always consider
myself a heterosexual man

with just-
with a lot of, um, issues.

So in this retreat, you are
going to give the person-

an adult person, but this was
done sometimes with children-

you're going to give them
a rebirth.

You put them under a blanket
on the floor,

and then people
weigh down the blanket.

- We're pulling the blanket.
- They sit.

They're holding
the blanket down.

We're sitting on the blanket.

Sitting on it
or holding it, right?

And then the guy is supposed
to fight his way out.

The belief was
that men who are gay

don't have a sense
of their own power,

and when they feel
more masculine,

they realize that the woman
is different from them.

And then they're
attracted to her.

Another one was,
they wrote this letter

from their "golden father"-
in other words,

the father they wish they had.

Was there any sort of belief
that, like,

gayness came out of, like,
a father wound?

Totally.

That makes me sad.
I don't know why.

You want to bring up
the trauma

so that you can process
and heal it.

Healing that
was really helpful.

It changed them
from depressed and suicidal

to less depressed
and suicidal.

I feel joy.

- I'm in a better place now
to become a father

and to become that role model
that my children will need.

All of it was reinforcing,

oh, my gosh,
they are changing.

I am changing.

I'm not gay after all.

♪ ♪

I feel like you're barely
skimming the surface

of what went on
at these retreats.

I've heard
there's retreats with touch.

I've heard
there's retreats with nudity.

And I'm just curious,
like, did you do that?

And what was
the therapy behind it?

Okay, so let me answer
the retreats with nudity part.

There was a retreat
that I was involved with

where there was
a lot of nudity, right?

Skinny-dipping,
processes where you were

kind of breaking out
of clothing and the constraints

of having to hide your body.

So there were all these
therapeutic intentions

behind them.

The rumors was, yeah,
Evergreen means Evergay,

and it's where you go to
pretend that you're struggling,

- but to hook up.
- So-

I mean, that's what was
spoken of hush-hush.

Yeah.

So I did not experience that.

- Really?
- Yeah.

So how did that rumor
get started?

So hang on.
Let me explain.

So I genuinely didn't
see that going on at Evergreen.

Did that stuff happen?
I'm sure that stuff happened.

- I did hear-
- I welcome that stuff.

It seems to me like
an Underground Railroad

for the gay community.

Like, I've heard
that you could do back rubs,

but shirts had to be on.

And if you went
to a special kind of retreat,

shirts could be off,
and you'd do back rub chains.

I heard about cuddle parties.

I heard you could hug, but not
for longer than a minute.

Uh, no.

Or not until
someone had a reaction.

More like 10, 15 minutes.

- You could hug for 10 minutes.
- Mm-hmm.

The cuddling, the touch,
the holding,

some of it was written
into the program,

like men are going to get
in small groups,

and one man
will hold the other,

and then they'll switch,
and then they'll switch again.

Okay, so it was about,
they need male touch.

- Let's give them male touch.
- They need male touch.

- Right.
- Within God's rules.

Within God's rules.

The idea was, holding is okay,

but not holding
in a partnership,

and not holding
if it's going to get sexual.

It's kind of like letting
the cat smell the salmon

and then putting it away
in the cupboard.

So it's like, on the one hand,
a recognition of truth,

while at the same time,

we're in denial
of that same truth.

I mean,
just that we would equate

being gay to trauma and wounds
and parental failings,

- you know?
- Yeah.

You can't heal the gay
out of a person.

I have watched for 30 years

how hope turns into bitterness
and disappointment,

how people try things
that then don't work,

but it takes them a long time
to figure out it doesn't work.

♪ ♪

That is so hard to own up to.

- Because?
- It's so wrong.

At the time,
I genuinely believed it.

I truly did,
but it's just so wrong.

When you're raised Mormon,

there's not a future
outside of Mormonism.

It is everything.

- A Utah man who was an icon
of conversion therapy

now says the practice
should be outlawed.

- My coming out was
meant to be about me

and about coming
into congruity with myself,

about congruity with my wife,

because there was
no marriage anymore.

What we were going through,
this painful thing

that we were living,
as I look back,

I can see the way
the pain compounded

year by year by year
on both of us.

I tried everything.

And at the end of the day,
I couldn't survive.

Like, if there's one message
I wanna make sure gets said

over and over and over,

you cannot heal the gay
out of a person.

You cannot convert a person
from gay to straight.

You cannot pray the gay away.

You just can't.

As hard as it is for you
to talk about these practices

that you now have distance
and can see the damage

and the pain of all of it,

I mean, I don't think
that where we are now

erases what we did then,

but I think it helps us
to talk about it.

Yeah.

To say that you spent
a majority of your life

not living authentically,
that's a painful thing to say.

But does that make
your life a sham?

To me, it's like,
if you had stayed married,

stayed doing
what you were doing,

and then just died
with the world never knowing,

that would make
your life a sham.

Like, it doesn't matter
if you determine

who you are at 18 or at 80.

Like, the day you do, your life
stops being a sham, you know?

That's extremely
compassionate

for you to say that.

I feel that way.

Who were you most concerned
about the fallout

- of your decision?
- Her.

- Your wife.
- Her.

As it should be.

Yeah, I was ripping her world
to absolute pieces.

Someone like her that, like,

married you
and had children with you

under the premise
that it would lead

to the same promises
that you hoped for.

I don't expect your wife to
feel or think this immediately,

but you released her
and gave her the chance

to stop being a martyr
and stop living out of duty

and obligation to her children
and to her church

and to her husband,
but for herself.

Yeah.

And to hopefully be with a man

who can love her in the way
she needed to be loved.

All these years later,
here I am now.

I'm in a partnership with a man
that, we intend to marry soon.

And of course, with my wife,
we have three children.

There are some things
I really don't regret

about my younger life, and one
of the things I don't regret

is having three amazing kids,

'cause they are beautiful,
amazing people.

Looking at my life
moving forward,

it's congruent
with who I know myself to be.

Mormonism is a cruel culture.

What's weird about Mormonism

is that it's the kindest
cruel culture there ever was,

because it does feel like
a plushy toy on the outside,

but there's a knife in it.

The younger people,
they're in the church going,

I can do this.

The knife's okay.

The knife doesn't hurt
that much.

It doesn't feel like abuse,

but a lot of abuse
doesn't feel like abuse.

So when I decided to be
courageous enough to call you,

it was because
I'm this little voice now.

I mean, I used to be
a big fish in a tiny pond,

and now I'm a tiny fish
in a tiny pond.

And you have a platform.

And I'm watching these kids.

Now they're saying,
I'm gonna stay.

I'm in it for the long haul,
because scripture power

and the light of Christ.

And I'm terrified because
I know what's ahead of them.

The truth is, we both know
that these doctrines

and these retreats
and these therapeutic practices

are still going on today.

And they're endorsed
by the church today.

And I'm kind of over
being polite

and pussyfooting around,
you know, the church.

They think they're so rich,
so powerful, and so immovable

that nobody can effect change.

But no matter how inclusive
the church says they are,

- it's not an inclusive church.
- It's not.

It's not
an inclusive doctrine.

And like you said,
it's gonna take people

that were in it deeply saying,
this is still going on,

and this is totally harmful,
and this has to stop.

And if it's not you
that says it,

and it's not me that says it,
who's gonna say it?

Who's gonna say it?

Yeah.

- Such a layered experience,
meeting David.

You know, I felt
immense compassion

and also revulsion
at all of it.

And that is kind of,
in a nutshell,

what it feels like to have been
Mormon for all of your life,

and then to leave it.

We still act as a friend
to the church

and as an apologist
for the church.

And, "They do a lot of good,"

or, "A lot of what they did
was great.

A lot of it was problematic. "

Like, no,
it wasn't problematic.

It was fucking destructive,
painful, and wrong, and false.

Listening to him tell me these
stories of conversion therapy

and justifying it
in any way, like,

there was a part of me
that left my body and was like,

what the fuck?

Like, this is horrible,
ridiculous, systemic abuse.

You were retraumatizing
these men.

When he said that they would
tell these sweet gay kids

that their gayness was a result
of a father wound

or a mother wound-
can you imagine being a mom

and, like, you see
your child suffering,

and not only do you have
no support

and you're not even supposed to
speak on it or speak about it,

but you're supposed
to reject your child.

And then the reason
you're supposed

to reject your child
is because you fucked them up

in the first place.

It was like-
it was just dripping

with shame and responsibility
and causality

that is a full-on lie.

And as we pass this church
and say,

you know, visitors welcome,
as long as you look,

act, and speak like we do.

A person that grew up
in the church

is not allowed that privilege
to just become

who they were born to be.

And I never, ever had
permission to do that, ever.

We always say, when you
know better, you do better.

Well, we know
what's going on right now.

That's why it's so important
now for people to speak out,

because the church
continues on unfettered

by the constraints
of the trauma

and pain they're causing.

And every day, it's like,
the house is on fire,

and if we don't
pull these bodies out,

there's going to be
devastation.

- The Mormon church may not be
one of the world's

largest religions,
but its estimated assets

certainly make it
one of the wealthiest.

The Mormon church is
worth over $140 billion.

And all that wealth and power
is concentrated

in the hands
of just a few men-

the Prophet of the Church
of Jesus Christ

of Latter-day Saints
and his twelve apostles.

It's just like
this multilevel network

run by men,
down to just, like,

150 members
in a geographical area.

And that's called
your local ward.

The Church of Jesus Christ
of Latter-day Saints

owns over 1.7 million acres,

making it the fifth
largest landowner

privately in the nation.

- The church also operates
a real estate arm,

with temples and churches
and seminary buildings

and pastures
and farms and fields.

We source all of our own food.

We also have
a welfare department,

a humanitarian
service department,

and we employ, you know,

hundreds of thousands
of people.

You are supposed to give
10% of your income.

That is reconciled
once a month,

and at the end of the year,

you're forced to sit in front
of your local leader,

who knows how much
you've been paying,

and they ask you directly,
are you a full tithe payer?

And you have to say yes or no.

- If a destitute family
is faced with the decision

of paying their tithing
or eating,

they should pay their tithing.

- The church, it's not just
a beautiful house of worship

and a different
specific religion.

It is an indoctrination
that requires, like,

secrecy, power, control,
big hammers of shame

and guilt and fear.

And, like, that's just a
scenario impossible to escape.

It wasn't like I hit
some point in my life

where Mormonism
started to be a burden.

From the moment
I was aware of it,

it supplanted my identity.

I'm the cradle Mormon.

I was born into the faith.

And I loved being Mormon
growing up.

My parents were both
from Mormon families.

All of our family rituals
and family traditions

and family togetherness
was centered around

church activities
and our church beliefs.

I had these siblings who were
my built-in best friends,

and we were all
in on it together.

And I didn't feel
like it was fake.

Like, yeah,
our family's awesome.

But I also distinctly felt
like our family was awesome

because we were Mormon.

Mormonism is a religion
based on the principle

that the greatest happiness
on Earth

can be found
within the family.

And the family is the vehicle
by which to grow closer to God

and obtain eternal life.

That belief informed
the type of family

I wanted to create for myself.

The second I met someone
that was willing...

I knew that I had the capacity
to make any marriage work

because I loved God,

I loved being Mormon,
I was good at being Mormon.

But I was-
but I was very, very wrong.

And about three days
into my marriage,

I realized that we were
fiercely, deeply incompatible.

I thought he was marrying me
for all the reasons he wasn't.

And I was marrying him
for all the reasons

he did not wanna be a husband.

Divorce wasn't
in my vocabulary.

I didn't know anyone
that was divorced, but he did.

My marriage was ending,

and my Mormon dream
was shattered too.

And my entire life imploded.

♪ ♪

- Hey.
- Hey!

What's going on?

Oh, nothing.

I was just thinking about you.

Oh, as always.

- One of my very best friends
is Shane.

And I met him right after
my husband moved out

and I was newly separated
for the first time.

And he was newly coming out
as a gay man.

And he became, like,
the most pivotal person

in my journey
out of the church.

Shane as a gay man
and me as a single woman,

you know, we were both
ostracized from the community.

But, you know,
we were publicly

very positive
about the church,

for fear of offending
our neighbors,

our friends, our families,
or our own histories.

I had a really interesting day.

- Tell me about it.
- I met with David Matheson.

And it was just so sad.

Some of the things
he was talking about were-

I mean, Shane,
they were shocking.

Oh, I bet.

While he was talking about
all this conversion therapy,

it made me wanna,
like, call you, and just-

- Talk about it. I get it.
- Yeah! You know?

- It breaks my heart, because
while I didn't experience

conversion therapy, I know
a lot of people that did,

including Ben.

- Shane has been married
to a wonderful man

named Ben
for the last eight years.

And when Shane first started
dating Ben,

I didn't know Ben.

I knew of him,
and I knew that Shane

was kind of
falling in love with him.

But also, I heard
that Ben had a story

that was really critical
of the church.

So I did
a little Google search on Ben.

And what came up were
kind of some of his experiences

that he had shared
about his abuse as a child.

- When I first
started dating Ben,

you kind of
pulled away slightly.

And it seemed to be
because he was more vocal

about talking
about his experience.

Why was that hard for you?

Well, you're right.

I mean,
that totally did happen.

I pulled away.

And I have never really
talked to you about-

I don't think I ever told you
that I knew that about Ben.

But-and I don't think
I've ever told Ben.

And it's something
that has kind of haunted me.

I was scared of it.

And I didn't want it
to be true.

I did not want to believe it.

At the time, I was still
straddling the fence,

but I had no intention

of facing the truth
about the church.

And it was not just being
outspoken and critical,

it was about facing
the truth about your faith.

- I just wish,
you know, as my friend,

we could have
gone through this together.

I know. I know.

So much earlier.

I know. I-

you know, so many people
reach out to me and, like,

I'm hearing stories from
everyone all around the world,

and I'm not sitting down
and hearing

the most important stories
of the people

I know and love the most.

Would he be open
to sharing it with me?

You know what? I don't know.

You know,
coming from an abuse victim,

he thinks
no one wants to hear it.

He thinks
no one will believe him.

You know, that's already
ingrained in him.

I mean, I would love
the opportunity to be able

to, like, explain to him
and make it up to him

and say, listen,
I do believe you,

and I believed it, which is
why I didn't wanna hear it.

If Ben would be willing,
I would give anything

to sit down with him.

- I mean,
I would have to ask him

and see how he feels about it.

I appreciate it.

Okay. All right.

Well, it was so good
talking to you.

Thanks for talking. I know.

I love you so much, babe.

- I love you too, babe.
- Okay.

- Have a good night.
- You too. Talk soon.

- Yeah.
- Okay.

- Bye.
- Bye.

♪ ♪

I think what scared me
so much about Ben's story

was that I didn't know
a single Mormon

that would ever do
such a thing.

It was like one of those
situations where you see it,

and you just shut your laptop,

because what he was
talking about

was so dark
and so terrifying to me,

and that was just a reality
that was overwhelming

for me to face,
so I pulled away.

Of all the people
I've had conversations with

and felt like I would do
anything to share their story

and to make them
feel seen and heard,

and yet, I hadn't even
done that to the people

closest to me in my own life.

It feels way overdue,

and so as much as Ben is
willing to share with me, like,

I'm gonna make up for the years

where I turned a blind eye
and a blind ear

because of my own fears.

- I haven't talked
about this publicly.

No one was doing anything.

Like, why didn't they
take that information

and give it to the police?

They cover up sex abusers.

No one listened.

- And you're listening.
- I am. I'm listening.

This guy was inseminating
virgins with his sperm.

He admitted to it,
and it got dismissed.

I heard about stories,

but never in numbers
like this.

I'm promising that
I'll help carry the burden

and I'll be an ally
and an advocate.

I just feel overwhelmed
and horrified.

And it didn't even
happen to me.