All language subtitles for National Theatre Live-John 2014 1080p HDTV x264-NGP

Good evening, and welcome to National
Theatre Live.

I'm very pleased that tonight we're
bringing you the National Theatre's

collaboration with the groundbreaking
physical theatre company, DV8.

Tonight's show, John, is like much of
their most recent work, a verbatim

piece. It's based on first -hand
testimony, which is given to you

DV8 is, what its title implies, a
physical theatre company, and they deal

that testimony in a way that is unique.

unique entirely unto themselves.

They deal with it not just through
speech, but through music and movement

well. And it is their experiments with
form that have made them renowned

throughout the world.

The subject matter of tonight's show,
John, is, as so often with DV8, raw,

uncompromising, and won't necessarily be
to all tastes.

But for me, it is a work of great
integrity and fierce power. I very much

you enjoy it.

Before I formed DV8 in 1986, I'd worked
as a dancer with four companies and with

28 different choreographers.

Increasingly, I began to feel frustrated
by the disconnection of what I was

being asked to do on stage compared to
the richness and complications of the

real world I observed beyond the dance
studio.

And however impressive the moves and
athleticism might have been that we were

doing, ultimately, I felt we were
conning audiences about the depth of

were supposedly presenting.

If you want to address social,
psychological, human issues, and I do,

huge limitations.

The term physical theatre better
describes the work I do. There are less

restrictions and rules about what is
admissible under this banner.

So I can invent, access, manipulate and
combine whatever I like, be it

pedestrian or naturalistic movement,
circus girls, film, dance, song or text.

Any means necessary.

to find the most appropriate way to say
something, be it about religion, freedom

of speech, sexuality, power abuse, class
inequality, disability or themes like

the pursuit of happiness or the role
denial plays in our lives.

The company's early work was physically
combative, masculine and angry.

By 1990, fatigued by the bruising
physicality, I decided to change tact

work became more poetic and imagistic.

We started incorporating bigger and more
elaborate sets to advance our

narratives.

After more than two decades of
experimenting, shoving and pushing

every direction, I felt I could no
longer adequately express ideas I needed

in movement alone without resorting to
words.

I was also tired of making fictional
work, so I started interviewing people

about their lives and using their words
and their stories, while still

maintaining a commitment and passion to
movement.

And gradually, a hybrid form of theatre
emerged, incorporating what is known as

verbatim theatre, with DVA's own very
physical and specific way of moving.

I expected to focus on fewer stories in
this work than the last two verbatim

works. However, it wasn't until John
walked into our office to be interviewed

that it became clear the work would be
dominated by one man's story, his story.

The words you hear spoken on stage by
the performer who plays him belong to

and no other character.

Apart from John, we only used five of
the 15 interviews. All the characters

portrayed on stage are real.

The work is a personal perspective, not
a collage of opinions nor a social

survey about men's views.

on love and sex.

Like all the other men in this work, we
found John in a very specific place,

unknown by most.

Like John, they were all searching for
something, be it love, escape,

validation, sex or company.

There was my brother Nicholas.

He was the first.

And then Karen.

And then Ronald.

And then me.

John.

There was about a year and a half
between each.

And then Simon, my younger brother.

There was eight years between me and
him.

My father was kicking the hell out of
her.

She was seven months pregnant.

She lost the baby.

Twice that happened. In them eight
years, she lost two children.

My sister, when she was growing up, she
was quite big.

And my father, he sort of ridiculed her
about it.

He nailed the bedroom door shut.

He locked her in her bedroom to stop her
from eating.

Stop her from getting fat.

While he was at work, we went to his
toolbox and we chiseled a hole between

bedroom walls so we can feed her through
the hole in the wall.

Yeah, that was going on for weeks and
weeks.

He tied my brother to the bed once.

And he beat him with his army belt.

Those big green canvas ones with the
brass buckle on it.

I remember him bleeding from his ears.

The only times my mother went out was
when she went to play bingo.

And she came home early one night
because she'd won some money at the

Yeah, she threw him out.

My mother, she was a shoplifter.

She used to take us out and use us as
cover.

I mean, she used to shoplift to order.

We had the neighbours come round asking
her if she could get the school uniforms

for the kids for next term.

She'd go and nick all the school
uniforms and sell them half price.

When I was eight, my mother went to
labour to give birth to my brother

At that point, the neighbour came round
to babysit me and my brother and my

sister.

It was then that my father broke into
the house and...

Yeah, he raped the babysitter.

He got three years in prison for that.

It was quite a high -profile case at the
time, and Bob Monkhouse, he used to do

the Golden Shot on TV.

They always used to come on and make a
joke at the beginning of the show, and

said who he were and made some joke
about, if you fancy a bit and you want

keep in the family, you should pop
around our house.

So, yeah, it was pretty grim for me.

My mother kept me off school and we went
to Liverpool prison to sign the divorce

papers.

That was the last time I've seen my
father.

It was quite stressful.

The social services got involved and
they put me and my brother Ronald in the

care and left her with the baby and my
sister.

I was just like 10.

When I went into care, I was quite
pleased, to be honest.

I'm going to fucking kill myself.

Yeah, do it quietly.

We're trying to watch TV.

I used to get on really well with my
mother.

Before she moved to London, she was all
right.

She did six months in prison for credit
card fraud.

And when she came out, they gave her a
flat.

She got abuse off the kids on the
estate, so they moved her.

She got quite a nice, trendy little soft
terraced house in Clapham North.

There were three of us living in the
house together.

Nicholas, my mother.

and me.

And then she started drinking and became
a bit of a recluse.

She used to just sit in her armchair and
watch the TV all day, drink bottles of

sherry and get stoned.

Life became purposes for her.

She'd sit there all day, go to bed, get
up, sit there all day, go to bed, get

up. It became monotonous.

We used to argue with her quite a lot
and she used to throw us out.

And we'd go back a week, ten days, two
weeks later and she'd be missing the

money. So we take her a bottle of sherry
or some cash and a box of chocolates to

sweeten her up a bit. And she goes,
Yeah, all right then. You can move back

We had this argument. We get kicked out.

And she'd been missing the rent. So a
bottle of sherry and a box of chocolates

and then... Yeah, all right then. You
can move back in.

So it was a regular occurring.

We knew she'd been there for nine days
because...

The newspaper was open on the kitchen
table on the Monday.

The Monday was the 14th.

But we didn't find her until the 23rd.

An overdose.

Obviously, she had persecuted herself
for all that time because of what

between the father and my sister.

I felt really, really bad, not
understanding what she was going

It was then that my drug use got a bit
heavier.

Yeah, I started using quite a lot.

Yeah, quite a lot.

Yeah,

I met my brother's fiancée's sister, and
we had a two -year relationship, which

resulted in the birth of my son.

It was my first real relationship, my
first real home, together with someone,

and I thought, this is it, yeah, council
flat, I'm on benefits, I've got a kid.

I've cracked it, you know.

18 and stupid.

Yeah, but we split up, went away into
both, though.

Young offenders in 1980.

My son was only six months old.

I didn't ever see him again until he was
20.

When I came out, I met Sandra.

My first real love.

Yeah, we were on and off for about ten
years.

Yeah, I did write a list one day of all
the girlfriends I had.

And all of the names ended in the letter
A.

How bizarre was that?

I mean, there was a girl called Anna.
And then, as I said, Sandra.

There was Katarina, the wife.

Vanessa. Yeah, Vanessa was about six
months.

But then she went off to America.

There was another Italian girl called
Linda.

Yeah, she was a bit loopy.

A couple of weeks.

Ah, Sylvia.

87 to 90.

And her friend Barbara.

Bloody hell.

In the back of a taxi. Yeah, I suppose
she wondered what her friend Sylvia had.

Yeah, I guess it was cheating, but we
never talked about it after that.

I had loads of girlfriends.

There were about eight of them all
together.

And then there was Hazel.

Oh, that doesn't end in an A.

Hazel.

I had sex with her sister, Tina.

Oh, there's another A.

I just realised that. I was like, Tina,
fucking hell. I was like, what?

I lived with Hazel for a couple of
years, but then she told me I got her

pregnant.

But when he was born, he was mixed race.

You're a dark skin, aren't you, John?

No. But, you know, what could I do?

I love the girl.

I couldn't just throw her out in the
streets, you know.

Yeah, I raised the boy like me own.

Yeah, I was using heroin at the time. I
used to sell all her jewelry and spend

all her money.

Yeah, it wasn't very nice for her.

I remember one day coming home and there
was a policeman outside the door.

And he said to me, she's packing all her
stuff up and she's moving out.

I don't think she was going with anyone
else.

I just think...

She had it all.

You know?

My brother Nicholas, he was a troubled
guy.

Him and his girlfriend were so deep into
heroin and stuff, they just neglected

their kids.

She dropped the baby.

It was only four weeks old.

The baby's injuries were more than I
thought, you know.

He had a shaken baby syndrome and
hemorrhaging behind the eyes and

skull. Broken rib.

You can't do that to your kids. It's not
right.

So I grassed him up to the police. Ah,
you fucking grass.

You fucking grass on your own brother.

Well, look at what the fuck he's doing,
man.

Anyway, he got arrested.

He got eight years in prison for child
neglect.

I sort of distanced myself from him
because of what happened.

Nick is out of prison.

He uses heroin and he overdoses.

Obviously, his tolerance is not what it
used to be.

I didn't even go to his funeral.

Was he cremated?

Was he buried?

I don't know.

It was soon after that that the house
got busted by the drug squad on two

different occasions.

I got evicted.

Eventually, I ended up on the streets,
you know, nowhere to go.

I was seriously addicted to heroin and
seriously into drink and living in bin

sheds and under bushes and sleeping in
doorways and garages.

You can come and crash with me. I know
where there's somewhere we can sleep

tonight. You know, I know this nice
little alleyway bin shed.

Under the bridge.

I was sleeping rough for about five
years.

Around about that time was when my
brother Ronald crashed his car and died.

So, yeah, I was pretty depressed at that
point.

I mean, there was Caffe Nero, Jack of
Potatoes. You just go and knock on their

door and they give it to you.

At seven o 'clock, they used to come out
with big bags of sandwiches.

Then there's Greggs the Baker's at 4 o
'clock in the morning when the van take

all the stuff away they didn't sell the
day before.

You just go and help yourself.

And there's a Greggs on every high
street.

Then there's a little drop -in center.

You can go for breakfast there between 7
and 8 and lunch there between 10 and 12

and then 1 and 2. So, yeah, there's
places.

I used to stop people on the streets.

Have you got a comment or quit?

I tried sitting at the cash point, but I
couldn't do it.

I used to go cycling around the streets
and looking into skips and picking up

little bits of lead and little bits of
copper wire and go down to the scrapyard

with that.

It was about £40, £50 a day, which used
to fund my drug habit.

I used to spend all my money on heroin
and crack and alcohol.

At one point I was drinking 30 cans of
Skull Super a day.

I got pissed off because I didn't even
get drunk.

Yeah, I used to keep all my bedding and
stuff in there, and I used to stash...

Yes! You asshole!

Yes, my man! Yes, my man! You're gonna
kill him!

You're gonna kill him!

I've never been attacked like that
before in my life.

I've got a scar down my arm here where
it sort of chopped me across my arm and

across my back and my leg.

They got me assessed and got me put into
Cedars Road Hospital where I felt safe.

I mean, they had doctors there and
nurses and drug workers and key workers.

In the hospital situation, I started
getting my life back on track.

I wasn't using drugs. I was sticking to
my methadone, doing group therapy

sessions.

I set up a drug group for people with
drug and alcohol issues.

I mean, there was a core of about ten.

And then each week we had two or three,
four come in.

At one point there was 20 of us, which
was great.

I mean, they had a needle exchange in
there, so they knew the drug use was

prolific. I mean, these guys were
injecting in their necks and in their

and some of them lost their legs and
some of them lost their arms.

It was a distressing place to be.

Over a period of about 18 months, 14 of
them died.

And that's when I started to disengage
and started to worry about my own sort

mortality.

I turned to food instead of using drugs
as a way of suppressing my depression.

I was diagnosed with depression.

My room was next door to the kitchen, so
I was just... gorging out on food

constantly.

And my weight went up to 25 stone.

I got quite friendly with this girl in
the hospital.

Bianca.

There's another A.

Bianca.

I used to call her my wife because we
were that close.

With Bianca.

It was somewhere I can go and escape and
talk about anything.

I really connected with her, you know.

She was only 31.

She was HIV.

She wasn't taking the medication.

For a couple of months, you're really
ill before your body starts getting used

to the drug.

And she was, ah, fuck it, you know.

Can't do it, you know.

Don't like it.

Throwing up every day.

So I went to stop taking it.

That's when she got really bad.

Yeah, really bad.

She used to drink clear cider, which is
poison.

Well, all alcohol is poison.

She got jaundice and her liver was
packing up, so she went to Chelsea and

Westminster Hospital.

They've got an HIV unit there.

When we got there, there was all these
tubes and wires and... It

was a horrible sight.

There were about four or five doctors
and nurses around the bed.

Oh, you can only see for five minutes.

Yeah,

I broke down again.

We were really close, me and Bianca.

Babe, look at the fucking state of you.

She discharged herself from the hospital
because she said she was feeling

better.

She came back, started drinking again
and...

All her legs swole up and all her skin
became ulcerated and there was a really

horrible smell when we changed the
bandages.

She could hardly walk.

She got really ill so we phoned an
ambulance and they put her in a

and wheeled her out of the hospital.

Come visit me.

No, I ain't come visit you.

Not after the last time.

We looked at each other and we knew that
was it.

She went in on Saturday and died on the
Tuesday.

Yeah, I really miss her.

Do you want another coffee?

Yeah, I'd always buy something.

Even if it was a loaf of bread or a pint
of milk or something, I would buy

something.

I'd always chat to the security guards
and the cashiers and the tellers and

that.

I was always pretty well known.

I might do a bit of work in Sainsbury's
Clapham and then Sainsbury's Ballam.

You think?

I recognise him.

Hey, where are you working today?

Yeah, I'm going to Twickenham.

There's a new store open in there. Yeah,
I'm going down to Bluewater or up in

Chief or Duty Free.

I could spot the shop security guards.

If it's raining, they haven't got a
jacket on and their clothes are not wet.

They never put perishables in their
baskets.

There's no fruit or veg in there. It's
all tinned or bottled.

Every couple of months, they change
stores.

And you pick a little tip stop from
others.

It's like a little community of shop
fifties.

Fat -packed salmon is always a good one.

Meat or salmon steaks or something like
that.

They're all flat and easy to conceal.

High value.

Both of those periods used to be a good
one.

Until they put those electronic tags on.

How's your missus?

Yeah, she's all right.

I used to go around there every day.

Are you all right? Are you all right,
babe?

Yeah, I'm fine.

I'd leave.

One day I went round there and he
wouldn't let me in.

If you don't open the fucking door, I'll
blow it off!

He was an abusive alcoholic.

So I'm thinking he's beat her up and he
don't mean to see what he's done to her.

So I threatened to shoot the door open.

Pick up this replica machine gun from a
skip and... Anyway, I got nicked for

that.

The judge said...

Me thinks I'm reading a script from the
bill.

Because it wasn't drug or gang related,
but just some stupid domestic.

Nine months.

Otherwise you'd be looking at five to
ten years.

I've got 28 convictions for 65 offences.

One offence against a person. That was
when I pushed a policeman or something.

Two offences against property.

Criminal damages and 30 thefts and 12
fraud offences and... Eight offences

relating to police, court and presence.

Which is obviously failing to turn up to
court.

Two drug offences.

And one firearm, shotgun, offensive
weapons.

Seven miscellaneous offences.

What else?

Driving offences.

Yeah, I've got a lot of driving
offences.

Credit card fraud.

Yeah, I was just using someone else's
credit card.

I was busy that day.

48 different places I used that credit
card.

I stole it out of the post of some empty
house.

We were looking for a squat, and there
was loads of post piled up under the

letterbox. So, went through it, opened
it, and there it was.

The person didn't exist.

It was a piece of plastic, really.

It was mine.

I owned it.

If I see something, I just go and I
steal it.

Just for the hell of it.

Not that I needed it or wanted it.

Just for the boss or something.

Because I could.

It was just the way I was brought up, I
suppose.

You've been positively identified as
being the man who did this.

Police Sergeant Jenkinson has seen you
with the sofa alight in the middle of

this woman's room, trying to light bits
of paper with a lighter.

He's asked you to drop the lighter, to
which you've said, you're going to have

to kill me because I'm going to set the
building alight.

Why would you say that?

I don't know.

I don't know.

I don't remember any of this.

I swear to God.

I was charged with arson with intent to
endanger life on two counts.

And section 20, wounding a person with
intent to endanger life. The accused

should expect a considerable amount of
time in prison, if not a life sentence.

I was going to prison for something I
never did.

I just couldn't get my head around that.

I couldn't. I just... I know I've been a
naughty boy most of my life.

Shoplifting and burglary and drugs.

This just wasn't me.

No.

But obviously it wasn't me who did it
because when I woke up in hospital, I

covered in blood.

And there was blood on my hands and
stuff.

Hair blood.

The judge gave me six years for the
first count of orphans, six years for

second count, and 18 months for the
section 20.

Ruining a person.

Thirteen and a half years. Whoa, whoa.

Wait. My client was advised not to put
in a guilty plea at the beginning of the

trial until the original charges had
been revised.

Because the charges needed to be changed
from arson with intent to arson

reckless. Because I didn't plan it.

The psychiatrist said I did it
recklessly.

Basically, it wasn't my fault.

This is the psychiatric report.

She said... There was no criminal
intent.

He had been feeling depressed about the
death of his friend, Bianca, and that...

In that week, another friend of mine's
wife died.

So I go and I spend all my money on
heroin and crack and alcohol.

I get no sleep on Saturday and Sunday.

I got my benefits on the Monday, so I
had another session on the Monday.

On the Tuesday, I go and see my doctor
for my prescription for my methadone and

my sleeping pills.

Yeah, I had a bit of a row with my
doctor because he wouldn't give me any

painkillers.

That was knackered.

I could barely walk.

25 stone. I was in pain.

Ah, fuck it.

I'm just going to take a couple of these
sleeping pills, and by the time I get

home, they would have kicked in. I went
to the shop to buy four beers.

He asked me to go to the shop and get
him some beers.

Go super.

Buy myself one.

He was opening the cans of beer and just
pouring them down his face, just trying

to drink it and missing his mouth
completely.

He took all his pills.

He sat there and took them one after the
other, saying, fuck it, fuck it, fuck

it. Let's have some more. Let's have
some more. So, it was more than a couple

tablets.

Yeah.

Fourteen.

Took the lot.

And that was about 11 .45 on the
Tuesday, the 10th of August, 2010.

And that was the last thing I remember.

Before I woke up in hospital on
Wednesday night, seven o 'clock.

The psychiatrist's report on the day of
my sentence saved me.

She said, The accused does not have a
history of violence, save for one

incident. So his alleged actions do
appear out of character.

The drug types are well recognized as
causing amnesia and have psychotic side

effects. But you still took the drugs.

You still went on that binge.

You still did it.

They dropped the charges to you reckless
rather than with intent.

So that's why I got off pretty lightly.

He took a third of everything and he
gave me a four.

A four.

And a one.

And he stuck it all together and just
gave me a five.

Which was nice of him.

I was about 24 and a half stone. More
than 50 % fat when I first went to

And my metabolic age was...

76 years old.

How are you doing, John?

I'm doing really well, but I'm addicted
to something.

I'm using it every day.

Twice a day.

I'm loving it. I'm getting a better buzz
out of it than any drug I've ever took.

What are you taking?

Exercise.

Weights. Curls.

Squats.

Dumbbells. Bicycles.

Rowing machine.

Tips for the medicine ball.

Have it on the running machine.

But walk.

But I start jogging.

Started losing weight.

It was great.

I've got this little printout from the
machine.

They measure your fat, body mass,
muscle.

That one's 20 stone.

17 stone and 5 pounds.

16 stone and 9 pounds.

In about a year, I lost 10 stone.

When I left Brixton, my weight was 95
kilos, which was about 14 and a half

stone. My metabolic age was 47 years
old.

So, I got a few years back.

Do you need a passport for domestic
flights in this

country? Why? Where are you going?

Well, I fancy flying to Newcastle. Why
do you want to fly to Newcastle for?

Well, I think my son's in Sunderland,
and that would be the closest airport.

Oh, well, that probably is.

So I got in touch with the chaplaincy,
and they referred me to the Salvation

Army Family Finder Service and asked
them if they can find a son for me.

I told them the story. I haven't seen my
son for 12 years.

I've only seen him once.

Since he was six months old.

That was when he was 20.

So, he's 32 now.

We found your son, John.

He's in Newcastle.

He's agreed for you to have his details,
and we passed your details on to him.

Wow.

What?

Yeah, so...

I phoned him up and it was pretty
emotional. He was like, Dad, well, I

want you in my life.

I came to London from that house that I
went to before, but, well, you weren't

there. And nobody knew where you were.

He told me he cried all the way home.

It was his engagement party the night
before.

He was getting married.

I was with my fiancée.

She's got two sons and he's got a son.

You're a grandad.

You've got a three -year -old grandson.

I was watching this TV show the other
day called Family Finders and, well,

was this black guy in there who says he
hasn't seen his father for, like, almost

15 years and he's getting married soon
and he would love if his father could

come to his wedding.

Like, wouldn't it be nice if I could
find my dad and my dad could come to my

wedding? And actually, the postman
arrived with a letter from the Salvation

saying, your father's looking for you.

That was so weird.

The weirdest thing is, I was watching
that same show that same day.

He sent me some photographs of him and
his missus and the kids.

He wrote letters to me. I told him on
the phone. I said, look, you're my only

surviving family member in this country.

You know, I got nobody.

I've done something pretty bad.

My actions have caused a lot of stress
to a lot of people.

But it changed my life around.

Don't worry about it, Dad.

You know, at least you're getting better
and, well, addressing your issues.

That's all part of the project.

I really want to be part of your life.

He was up for that.

Yeah, I was on such a high.

They were looking for, yeah, mentors to
sort of interview the guys to come into

prison and see what their needs are.

So I thought, yeah, I'll have some of
that.

Signed up, passed the course, got the
job.

They gave me a list of cell numbers and
I go round and knock and open up the

door.

I introduce myself and ask, what
services do you require?

Do you need your rent paying?

Are you earning benefits?

And blah, blah, blah, blah.

So I quite enjoyed that.

When a prisoner was leaving, I had to
do, like, an exit.

Do you need any ID?

Do you want someone to meet you at the
gate to keep you on the straight and

narrow?

Sometimes I'd say goodbye to someone on
a Friday, and then I'd open up the door

on a Tuesday morning, and he was there.

What the fuck?

He goes, yeah, I didn't get to the end
of the street, you know.

I got the case.

I had an argument with the police, and,
well...

I got recalled, and rah, rah, rah.

Some people I'd seen three or four
times.

And I thought, that ain't a life for me.

That revolving door ain't happening for
me.

I want to put all that behind me. I want
to live a normal life, what's perceived

as normal by you middle classes.

So I enlisted in the Open University.

Done a distance learning course in
health.

Halfway through the course, I lost
interest and I missed the call stage

ASA.

With help from my distance learning
coordinator, my coursework was brought

on track.

I received the results from the Open
University.

I passed with distinction.

How about that?

What the fuck's going on?

They wouldn't let me ring my son's
number. I can't really discuss it. Your

he said he'd write to you.

What's going on? Do in my head and...
Hasn't he contacted you?

Nah. Oh, well, I'll have to tell you
then. Well, he googled you and he didn't

like what you'd seen. He phoned the
prison and said he didn't want any

with you.

The story in the papers, it's not bad.

The photographs are pretty grim, but the
story ain't bad.

He misrepresents me.

They haven't got the charges right for a
start. I mean, they're still writing

arson with intent to endanger life.

I had to sign this paper saying I can't
phone him, I can't write to him, I can't

get any third party to conduct him on my
behalf.

I came to the conclusion that because
he's got a missus and kids, he don't

some mad arsonist living in the house.

When we set up our storm, it didn't
work. For quite a long time, we were

broke. And we lived in a bunk bed in the
office. We're about to go under, and I

think... Well, I think the turning
point... It was when we asked ourselves

it is that we actually sell. And what we
needed to sell.

Is it busy?

Because it's the number one asked
question.

Is it busy? What's your maximum
capacity?

How many lockers do you have? Not how
many people, how many lockers. Because

that's indicative.

Because they want to know how many
people could possibly be there at one

But it also depends on what you say.
Because if the queens see you offer a

discount between certain hours, they go,
ah, that's when it's not busy, not

going then.

Some of our competitors still do that,
stupidly. We don't.

What we sell is busy.

It wasn't just us saying it, we had to
be it. You can't just tell people, oh,

we're busy, because they'll come and
find out. So we gave stuff away.

We let people in for free.

We did all sorts of tricks to make sure
that, actually, we are busy.

Where people make the mistake very often
is they think busy ups their chances of

having good sex.

Actually, busy's not always sex.

My little joke thing is, you know we all
rate ourselves on a scale.

Well, I put myself as a seven.

I'm probably a five, but I have high
self -esteem.

And I chase after nines.

But I know that if I go to a very busy
sauna that's full of nines, all the

are going to be fucking each other.

And it's at seven.

Well, they're just going to be looking
over my shoulder.

Whereas, when I go in, it's a bit
quieter.

Actually, there are a couple of nines
knocking about.

Well, they probably haven't quite
connected or whatever else.

And I can pick them off.

So that's the theory of busy is not
always best.

The other much simpler thing that we did
was the two -day pass.

You can come back for free. And
eventually we bit the bullet from the 24

which we weren't to start off with, and
that has made a difference. Yeah, but

that did come at a cost.

Because when you go 24 hours, that's
when you get the druggies.

And when you've got a 24 -hour path,
well, that's when you get the people who

just think that they can live there. We
had a Polish boy living here.

He started getting his mail delivered
here, at which point we cancelled his

membership.

Yeah, I was out of prison for four or
five weeks, and it was like gay guys

everywhere.

Just what you're looking for.

It's like being in a sweet shop.

You all right, mate?

You all right?

How you doing?

It's like being on the fucking
underground in here.

Why don't nobody talk to each other?
You're sitting in here saying, fuck all.

mean, you're coming to meet somebody.

You fucking talk to people. You might be
able to meet somebody.

Yeah, I start chatting to people. It's
like I'm a nut or something.

What are you doing here?

What the fuck are you doing here? It's
so cold.

It's fucking cold in this place.

Yeah, you get people come in at this
hour in the steam room. It's like their

test goes on something.

They come in, have a look around, and go
out.

And the guys that come in, they just
fucking creep across and touch you.

What are you fucking doing, man?

If you want to suck my cock, talk to me
about it.

You can talk to me. What's the matter
with you fucking people?

Didn't like it, eh?

Yeah, they all just got up and fucked
about.

Yeah, you just go in there and do your
business and you fuck off. No one's

bothered about it.

I don't know anybody's names. I don't
like that aspect of it.

I think it could be an aspect of
intimacy.

For fuck's sake, you get an intimate,
oral, penetrative sex, you know.

You don't just do it cold.

In my experience...

Heterosexual places.

Sports places.

Spas. I'd find them aggressive, and you
either keep them, or join the stupid

talk about football, or shit about their
muscles, or about their training, and

it's like, shut up.

There's no place for me there. It's just
rowdy.

Engage, so on.

There's not a lot of chat at all.

Absolutely fucking perfect.

There might be a little chat, but it's
not aggressive, and it's not nonsense.

It's quiet, calm, it's attempting, it's
respectful. Where in other places it's,

and hanging around in heterosexual
chains.

It's just dodgy. Why would anyone hang
around? That's not right.

Where in a gay song, it is about hanging
around and taking your time.

And I wanted to take my time and hang
around.

If I go, it might be from eight hours,
six hours, probably more than four

maybe more.

There's one that I'd go to because they
have a brilliant roof to sunbathe and

maybe a split on the roof.

Some phone calls.

If I had a day without clients, then I
could do a load of work there.

In the winter, I'd be in the TV room
reading.

I could spend absolutely hours sitting
in the open theme room to warm my bones.

One of the best things about a gay sauna
is that no one exists there apart from

me. So it could be work, clients...

Busyness, people I live with, my
girlfriend, my family, anything and

that's going on.

When I go in there, my head can empty.

It's not blank. It's just thinking
things through and just letting things

And I don't know anyone. I can put up
this thing nine times out of ten.

Men know.

If I don't want to talk or I don't want
to be touched, I don't want sex or

anything like that.

It's so respectful. It's to listen to.

If I'm not putting out, I can be totally
left alone.

It's like... Being invisible.

And if I'm ridiculously horny and my
fiancée is away for weeks or something,

then maybe.

My fiancée does know and it's not an
issue.

But that was more in the old days when I
had the curse of the city. And it's

like, can someone please come up with an
original idea?

Something needs to be dealt with because
I need to get on with my day.

Have you ever kissed a man?

I must have, but I can't think.

I want to say yes, but I don't remember.

I haven't got an issue with it.

It's not a big secret, so I must have.
But I don't remember.

Did you tell any of your other part
-girlfriends that you used Kate's

Nah.

One of my ex -girlfriends found out, and
she was surprised. And she said, so

where are you with your sexuality?

It's very, very simple.

I would describe myself as straight.

But then, everyone that knows me knows
that it depends on how I'm feeling in

moment.

But generally...

I would say straight.

Hi. Hi, babe. How are you?

Not too bad. How are you? I'm good.

Oh, my God. What's that?

I'm doing an interview.

Wow. What's the interview for? Is it
recording now? It is recording.

Do you want enough... Hey, is it okay if
I go and put a towel on? Yeah, do you

want an upstairs locker or a downstairs
locker?

I think 78 isn't blocked by anything.
What kind of meat's in there?

It's beef.

Is it?

Well, that's not beef, mate. That's not
meat's meat.

I don't know what that is, but the
layers between there, I mean, what's

there?

I can't eat that, bro.

It's got no flavor to it, nothing. It's
like the bread's so hard as well.

It's fucking stale, man. I'll get it out
of the bin.

So the lasagna's no good?

Absolutely not.

If they call it, it's wrong. The texture
is wrong, you know.

I'm not Italian, but I know how to make
a good lasagna.

No flavour to it, nothing.

Look, it's like fucking... It's like
corn.

You know corn?

That's not real fucking beef, man.
That's not meant to be. Look, you're

me that's meant to be, man. It's a
fucking paste.

What is that?

That's terrible.

I'm really sorry.

Can I get you anything else?

Have you got any cigars?

No, sir.

Sorry, we don't do them.

You're not going to put the lasagna on
the bill, are you?

Yeah, that's the deal.

Hi. What?

Have you been here before?

Nah, not here.

Okay, follow me.

The space we're in now, this is like the
chill -out lounge, where we keep the

tea, the coffee, and the only non -pervy
television, the regulars.

A really nice guy.

They talk more than they shag.

We've got the tennis on now, so if I
wasn't doing the interview, we'd be

chatting about the score.

And when the antiques are on, we discuss
the prices and all that sort of thing.

It's a bit odd, because everyone's stark
bollock naked, except for me.

And through there, we've got, like, the
porn lounge.

If you go left... You've got one of the
private cabin areas.

And through here, the sling room.

Then there's this, like, giant bed you
can fit 15 to 20 people on.

Or more, depending on what positions you
get into.

Then there's the steam room along there.

Then downstairs, the shower, sauna,
smoking area, and other cabins.

Then we've got, like, the glory hole
section, which I think is the weirdest

thing. Because it's basically like three
toilet cubicles without any toilets in

them. Just got holes in the walls.

And if you come around the corner, you
can see bits poking through.

We have themed party nights.

Well, next week we've got jocks,
speedos, underwear.

There's fetish nights, lads for dads,
but, like, legal boys.

Tell me about lads for dads.

Well, it's generally a lot of dads.

And the lads are pushing it. What do you
mean by that?

Well, you can be a lad at 40 if everyone
around you is 65.

Yes. We have ones for HIV -positive men.

It's not exclusive or anything.

There's just no judgment or anything
about it.

You can be honest and open about your
status, whereas other people might feel

ashamed about it otherwise.

Is it quite like this?

Uh... Completely.

I can't think of an ethnic minority we
haven't had in.

And we're like, very transsexual,
transvestite friendly.

Basically, we don't really care.

Just as long as we can take their money.

Really, that's the truth of it.

We've been to every sauna in London, and
no one has as hot a clientele as we do.

They're young, they're fit.

And they're up for it.

What you're doing is hunting.

Cruising is hunting.

Sex is not about coming.

Sex is actually about the possibility of
sex.

It's about body language.

It's about eye contact.

I know, instantly use injected because I
catch their eye.

Because they catch mine. And as long as
I remain confident, I initiate.

Well, if I just wait for them to
respond, it's never going to happen.

So, therefore, I make the first move.

I don't care if I get pushed back.

I strut.

Usually. Oh, well, no, I mean, there is
the going to the cock and the grabbing,

but usually, actually, before any of
that, I would smile.

It would be a dirty leer, probably, but
it would be a form of a smile, which is

to break that ice.

We don't really hunt separately.

We hunt together.

It's much, much harder hunting together.

Well, not really. I mean, it's harder to
hunt together if you just want one

person. But generally, when we hunt
together, our primary goal is to get the

party started.

So if we're walking to a venue and we're
hunting together, then we just go where

everybody is and fuck in front of them.
And they will crowd round and wait for

an invitation. And you just say, you,
come.

You come, you go away.

And they will come.

And the pushier ones will push in, but
for the most part, we've fucked in

from here to Berlin, and most times they
wait for an invitation.

And wear it back by.

The people assume that we're a couple.
And so they can't touch. And so they

can't get involved.

So actually, a new technique would
really be to separate, and then find

other as if we've never met. Oh yeah,
that would work actually.

When somebody is bothering me and I'm
not interested, and they continue to

bother me, what I do is I speak to them.

I break the rule of non -verbal
communication.

Yeah, I'm very flattered.

That will never happen.

Go away.

And every single time you break that non
-verbal rule, they will go.

They will never bother you again.

I think there's an honesty in soreness.

As long as you keep your mouth shut,
you're just judged by the cover.

That's all this is.

Everybody's walking around and around
and around, picking up the book by the

cupboard, which can be an advantage.

Absolutely. All life is there and there,
which, it can be kind of brutal, but

can also be quite uplifting.

We have these tiny little digiframes
that play porn, literally, to keep your

pecker up.

And most of the time, when you turn the
house lights on, underneath these little

digiframes, there's just a smear of
demons.

People have just come against the wall
watching these little seven inch

You know, you've paid 16 pounds to come
here.

Have sex with a human being.

You can watch porn at home.

When we try and close at the end of the
night, the last ones would always be in

the porn room, wanking away feverishly
because everyone else had gone home.

They at least needed to come before
leaving, which is fair enough.

Yeah, I got a couple of close friends,
but they don't know I'm gay.

Although, because I'm involved with the
prison, I told my probation officer and

my key worker that I go in the sauna.

Because every week you have to write
down what you've been doing.

You know, 15 hours of purposeful
activity.

Yeah, when I was younger, they used to
call me Biker John.

Because of my dispatching days and that.

Yeah, I remember I bought this motorbike
off this guy and...

On my way home, I rode past these two
guys working on a motorbike. The same as

my old one.

So I pulled over and I go, You all
right, lads?

Yeah, I've got one of them at home. I
don't use it anymore. You can have it

spares if you want.

One of them was quite hot.

He was ten years younger and he had blue
eyes.

And I said to him,

I'll be blunt.

Do you want to come home with me and
have sex with me and the missus?

He was like,

Yeah, alright then.

I was like, fuck.

Now I gotta go home and tell the missus.

Yeah, I told Sylvia I was bisexual.

And, um, yeah, she was cool with that.

Alright, mate?

And then there's the poo.

And then there's the poo.

There's always the poo. God. There's
always poo. Yep.

The saying shit will happen is just a
regular thing for us.

You'll find shit up the stairs.

You'll find shit in the shower.

You'll find shit everywhere except where
it's supposed to be.

There's the post -fuck poo, which is
falling out of their arse as they're

up the stairs.

There's poo up the walls and things.

I just, I don't know how that gets
there.

I mean, the awful one is the jacuzzi
poo.

Oh, it doesn't happen that often, which
is a relief, fortunately.

But the one that happens a hell of a lot
is the shower poo.

Oh, but really, like, big heaps of it.

Which I think is because they probably
think they're going to pop a little

and actually it's a little more than
that.

In all its time, when we're done with
the chat, we've cleaned up. Nobody's

come and said... I'm really sorry.

I did a poo.

It's got nothing to do with them. Even
when it's falling out of their arse as

they're going up the stairs.

You have to tell them.

Oh, by the way, you've got shit falling
out of your arse.

You can kind of almost divorce yourself
from the fact it was you who did the

poop. It is, you see, very dark, so it
is possible.

It wasn't me, I'm just showering.

But eventually you just sort of get used
to it.

I mean, we were at Cleaner Down, so I
had to clean.

But... At the end of the night, we were
cashing up the bar, and one of the

cleaners goes to me, What's that on your
shoulder?

And I'm like, what?

I look down, and there's this little
piece of poo on my shoulder.

And I'm like, that's disgusting, how
long's that been there?

And some of the others go, Yeah, that's
been there, like, all night.

And I'm like, I've been going around the
building with poo on my shoulder, and

none of you thought that might be
something you want to mention to me.

And some of the others go, Well, we
thought you knew.

And I'm like, why would I continue to go
around the building with poo on my

shoulder? on my shoulder. If I knew it
was that.

Someone's hand touched my hand and I
remember thinking, fuck, that is one of

those things when someone touches you or
makes eye contact and it means

something. So I just turned around and
there was this blow and he looked at me.

And then I thought, fuck, this is one of
those things that you're supposed to do

something. So I turned around and I
followed him, not knowing what I was

I assumed because I saw the cubicles and
stuff, but I'd never really been in

one.

And he just had the perfect body, which
was the type of body that I would have

liked as a kid in school.

So it's like hairless, thin, white, you
know, just a normal 70s pop

star body type thing.

Anyway, I followed him in.

Was he kneeling or standing or
something? And he had a hard bit and

thought, oh, fuck it. I have to do this.

So I just put it in my mouth, took it
out, and thought, well, okay.

That's London.

And it just felt a bit rubbery. And it's
like, it's not my thing.

I think that's the only time, actually,
that I've ever... Sorry about that. To

be honest, I'm not reading today.

So what are you doing here, then?

Well, just... Hanging out, sitting in
the steam room and stuff.

He's like, man, you've got the perfect
body.

You know, you've got muscles and you're
not thin and you've got hair.

I said to him, what do you want about
you've got the perfect body?

That's the type of body that everyone is
supposed to have, surely.

And we had a brilliant conversation.

And it turned things around because I
went through, I guess, thinking, if I'm

looking at these bloke's bodies, then
maybe I'm gay.

But I don't want to touch their bodies
or be on their bodies. I don't fancy

these guys.

Then I realized I probably had a good
half dozen blowjobs from blokes, but

they've all had this perfect... It was
almost made okay by these people who had

perfect bodies.

It's like I want their bodies on my
bones.

It's almost like I was vamping the body
that I should have had.

It's like the one I wanted to be is
sucking me off.

Time just stops in a sauna.

There's no light, just the electric
bulbs, and you can spend hours trying to

find someone new, trying to find
something a little bit attractive.

And suddenly it's 7 o 'clock in the
morning, and you really need to be going

home. And you sit on a bus, stinking of
chlorine, knowing that

you've got a couple of people to come
inside you.

Going past my school, and...

the last thing you want to do is go and
teach 300 or whatever kids.

When I'm in the classroom, I often look
at photos of people on sex apps, like

Grindr, which is highly unprofessional.

But it's quite hilarious when you've got
26 kids in the room with you and you're

looking at a picture of someone's cock.

I met someone on Grindr who lived right
next to my school.

And it got to four o 'clock and he was
like...

Come over.

And I left school.

I went round to his.

I fucked him.

Came inside him.

I got dressed and I walked back into
school ten minutes later having just

some boy who lived nearby.

I really like having unprotected sex
because it means the guy is willing to

very, very intimate with me.

In a sauna environment.

And it's happened recently.

I would turn someone down if they wanted
to.

It's not doing anything for me, so let's
leave it.

Or try and take it off and get them to
do it without it.

Sometimes they're well up for it.

Other people just aren't interested, so
you just walk away and find someone who

might be willing.

I always go drunk to a sauna.

One person could come inside you and you
go off, find someone else.

You could keep doing that all night,
really.

My God, why am I having sex with you?

Even if they're unattractive and you
might not even know their name or having

had a conversation, when you're in the
dark, on a mat, in a sweaty sauna,

taken some drugs or having taken lots of
alcohol, you're definitely very open

for being extremely intimate with
somebody.

So you don't know them, aren't
particularly attracted to them, yet

it's intimate.

It was intimate.

They were sticking their cock inside me
without a condom on.

That's intimate.

They want to be with me so much, they're
willing to do that.

Or they want to be with you so much that
they don't care if they give you HIV.

Yeah, maybe. But I think you're missing
that the ultimate fact about it is that

I enjoy it.

I really like having unsafe sex.

That is my raison d 'etre.

That's the way I like working.

It's the intimacy.

Why do you really enjoy it?

It doesn't matter.

I actually see a positive in the fact
that I caught it, which is that...

I don't worry about catching it anymore.

To me, it's like you get cancer, you
stop worrying about the fact that you

get cancer.

Suddenly you know, and I can deal with
that. I can move on.

I was actually surprised I didn't catch
HIV earlier.

Last time I went to the sauna, I managed
to get myself into a room with about

six other guys.

And we all discussed our status.

One of the guys was like, oh, I'm
negative.

Let's all have unprotected sex.

And some of the other guys were like,
yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I was like, okay, well, I'm
positive, but no medication.

So hey, one of them was only 19.

He was very up for just hanging out with
me, and I ended up shagging him quite a

lot and coming inside him.

And because I told him I was positive,
and my head was justified, It was fine.

But even if you're not at high risk of
passing on HIV, there are other

transmissible STIs that are incurable.

Human papillomavirus, venereal war,
genital herpes, new strains of

and in some cases, hepatitis C.

It's possible.

It doesn't logically work like that in
my head.

I make sure I take my medication.

I get tested regularly.

My viral load is undetectable, so
chances of catching anything off me

very high.

And anyway, in a fauna, they won't know
who I am.

They have no way of tracing that back to
me.

That's the first thing you'll hear in
the cabins.

It's like dealing with a zombie.

They don't feel pain.

Really, just extreme.

They just don't know what's going on.
They are dead.

They're just cock.

And their brains are dead.

Stop. Sit down.

Follow me.

Stay there.

One person can't restrain them.

You need to hold them down.

The problem is you hold them down and
they'll nod off.

They want to go to sleep, which you'd
think would be an okay thing, but it's

not. It could mean they're about to slip
into a coma and never wake up.

The problem is that the heart is going
slower and slower and slower.

And at a certain point it... You might
just stop. You die.

Like that.

And we had a guy die.

I will never forget that.

I can't sleep at night because that
happened in my business.

It was from Portugal.

His mother and his brother came because
they wanted to see where he died.

He died in a cabin.

With his eyes wide open.

Watching porn.

How can you bring a mother downstairs to
show her that?

Look, if it wasn't for G, I wouldn't say
we had a drug problem.

A drug, GHB or GBL, has suddenly
blossomed.

G is basically the same thing.

You need millilitres to get high.

It's a chemical car cleaner.

It's sold over the internet.

Totally legal.

Incredibly cheap.

It works out about 20 pence for high.

And of all the party drugs, it's the
only one that doesn't inhibit your

to have an erection.

As opposed to crystal meth or cocaine or
ecstasy, which, well, they'll lower

your inhibitions, but they also lower
your penis.

Look, it's really been used. Like,
people use pop.

They can't have sex without it.

So, if they're going out to see
somebody, their key is their phone,

And what happens with G, though, is if
you take just a little bit too much, you

die.

I don't actually think that we have a
particularly big drug problem.

We do regular bag searches.

You know, we are doing what we can.

We're looking at motion sensors.

So if you're having sex and moving, the
lights are off.

Once the lights are off, they'll open up
and kick you out.

In the last few months, we've had about
two G -cases per month.

And in that month, 10 ,000 people have
come through the building.

And too often are left in an ambulance.

And the majority of our customers are
not using drugs.

And there are two reasons that we don't
tolerate drug use.

One is because it's illegal.

And the majority of people don't like a
messy brain.

It's not very sexy.

And it's not good for business.

How many times have you been to a gay
sauna?

Three times.

One six years ago, and one three weeks
ago, and one two weeks ago.

Yeah, I'm more the sort of protagonist.

Yeah, I'll make the first move.

But sometimes I just lie in one of them
rooms and keep the door open.

Please, somebody just come in and do
something to me.

Yeah, sometimes it works.

Sometimes it doesn't.

Sometimes people come in, but they just
want to have sex.

Yeah, I'm not really interested in sex.

Yeah, I'd rather.

It's hard to rape somebody with weights
of thin walls in a tiny cabin.

Pinning somebody down and having sex
with them against their will.

Well, that's never going to happen.
Because somebody else will hear. In that

sort of scenario, it's a way safer place
to have sex than at home. But what is a

top? When a lot of people are having
unprotected sex, kind of against their

will, because, you know, I didn't know
what I was doing. I was really high. Or

he gave me this. Or, oh, well, the top
didn't want to.

I didn't want to say no.

I don't like confrontation.

Yeah, well, don't have sex.

You know, it's kind of straightforward.

This isn't a difficult equation.

Just don't have risky sex.

You can have as much sex as you like. As
long as you always wear a condom. You

know, I've had every sexual experience
in the universe.

And I've managed to stay negative.

It's not inevitable.

It's really not.

Because...

It's not about the amount of sex that
you have.

It's about the degree of responsibility
that you take when you have that sex. We

provide sexual health information. We
have HIV testing on Mondays.

All our porn is protected sex.

Rather than unprotected sex.

And, unlike home, we always provide
condoms and lube. Yeah.

We're not judgmental if somebody chooses
to have unprotected sex.

But...

We abhor the promotion of barebacking.
Because it fetishizes something that's

actually just dangerous.

And then there's this whole thing about,
oh, well, it's the education,

education, education.

The fucking education has been there.

People choose not to know.

It's not education.

It's attitude that needs to change.

In the space of a year, about five of my
friends, all zero -converted, all...

Through stupidity.

I had to sit there with them crying on
my shoulder and pretend it's going to be

fine. Because it will be fine.

It is treatable. It is dealable with.

But this isn't what I want for a 25
-year -old boy.

Yes, you can treat it with pills.

Yes, you can. But nonetheless, you've
got poison in your blood.

You're going to have to explain that to
anybody you're ever going to have an

important connection with.

It's the difficult part. Yeah, but what
you're talking about there is reducing

the stigma of being HIV positive. Yeah,
exactly.

You've got some people saying you can
catch it from anyone. Everybody's got

Yeah, so worry, worry, worry, worry
about staying negative.

And then you've got the other people who
are saying, oh, look, everything's fine

when you're positive.

So no stress.

No worries.

You don't have to wear a condom anymore.
And you can ride a bike and run a

marathon.

Listen.

I don't want to sound like a Daily
Telegraph reader, because I'm not.

I am a liberal, but I do genuinely
believe that at a certain point we have

say, man up.

Really.

Take responsibility for yourself.

How old are you?

52, and I'm still at it.

No, I'm all right, brother. I'm cool.

You're nice.

You're nice.

What are you doing here?

Come here for a fuck.

Yeah, but you're 52.

Yeah. Well, I'm young at heart.

Look, it's almost 9 o 'clock, and I've
got to go.

There's a curfew where I live.

It's a hospital run by the probation
service, so I've got to leave before 9,

because I have to find him by 11.

People, they just want to have, I
suppose, uncomplicated sex and move on

next one.

I want something a bit more intense, a
bit more long -lasting.

I haven't really found any kind of deep,
meaningful, loving relationship because

I haven't really had time, you know, of
being in prison, drugs.

I suppose that's why now I've got to see
if I can find that to make up for lost

time, really.

I'm fucking aching for it, Lloyd, to be
honest. I'm aching to find somewhere and

share my life with what's left of it and
my love. I've got so much love and

affection that I've never been able to
express for so long.

It's painful.

It's painful, man.

And that's why I look on the internet,
and that's why I come here, because it's

another door that's opened.

You never know where this is going to
lead. You never know if whatever.

I don't know.

I've just got to keep looking, innit?

Just got to keep looking.

My sexuality was a big thing for me for
years.

I fought it for a long time.

You know?

Going with women, I tried to control my
urges.

But I've done my time with women and I
enjoyed it.

But I'm not bisexual.

To be blunt, I like, you know... Deep
down, I reckon I'm

proper gay.

Can't change that.

I like male company.

I like sex with men.

I'm looking for a relationship with a
guy.

That's what I want.

It'll be a new experience for me to come
home from work and find a boyfriend

rather than a girlfriend.

I've never experienced that.

And it's something I'd like to do.

Just to be settled.

You know?

The normality of life.

Just to ask someone you can express
thoughts with.