Original subtitles

Welcome to this amazing time we're going to have together here

with Justin and Brooke. We are going to talked about false spirit in the church.

I did a video, not a long time ago where I talk about the false spirit

that have crept into the church.

And we have got a lot of response because of that video

and we need to talk about it. We need to talk more about

what is happening in the Body of Christ today,

how false spirit have crept in and how all the manifestations you see

is not manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

Some of them are demonic and need to be cast out.

But also, the Holy Spirit is working and it's very difficult for people

to understand that two spirits can work at the same time.

Paul in 2 Corinthians 11 talked to the Christians, to the church.

At one time he said that: I'm afraid like Satan, the serpent,

deceived Eve that you have been deceived.

And they have been deceived by people preaching another Jesus

and giving another spirit. So, it's actually possible

to be in the setting of the church and hear another gospel,

we read that in Galatians, also... Hear another gospel,

hear about another Jesus

and receive another spirit.

When they said: receive another spirit,

I'm sure that they will not call the spirit: Krishna or Buddha

or call the spirit something else. They call it the Holy Spirit,

but the question is: is it the Holy Spirit?

The Bible says we need to test everything, we need to test it.

The Bible talks about the spirit of discernment. We need to discern things.

We want to talk about that and...

Brooke and Justin are with us here and their story is...

I will just introduce them short and then they are going to tell a lot.

Their story is: you came from the non-Christian background,

out in the world, was living the crazy life, met her, you got married,

you started to study, it was in the Baptist congregation and you were studying

at the seminary, and so on. You received the Holy Spirit, you were preaching

in the church, but you had the Spirit and life started to get changed,

and then you received the Spirit and you just started this amazing life together.

At one time you went to Africa. You came in charismatic church

in America, also, where you saw the false spirit, or saw manifestations,

but it was first in Africa it really became clear that there is something wrong.

So, now I would like to let you talk a lot.

Okay, so yes, I was raised in a Baptist Christian home.

I went to church every Sunday and I was talked about, you know, hell and heaven,

and you don't want to go there, and the right things to do,

and the not right things to do, but never was described or understood

the Holy Spirit, who He was. You heard a lot about God and Jesus,

but the Holy Spirit wasn't really talked about.

So, at 23 years old, I gave my life to the Lord and

about four months after I had repented I remember there was something

lacking in my life. I didn't know what it was,

because no one was talking to me or discipling me much about

what it was that was lacking, but I knew it was something.

And I would be seeking the Lord constantly, reading the Scripture,

and I started to read, and I said: There's something I'm missing,

because I don't feel like I'm seeing what I'm reading.

And I was just crying out one day.

At that very moment, I remember, just the presence of God came in that room

so real and so clearly, and all of the sudden I started to pray in tongues.

It just kind of like came out of me. And I stopped myself at first.

I was like: Ah... I was told that tongues were not for today,

I was told they are from the devil now, if it was to happen today,

so I started rebuking this thing that I had just received.

But at the same time, every time I would go into the secret place of the Lord and pray

and seek Him, and I'd get into a prayer, it would come out of me.

And as I started to read the Scripture, I'm like: This is what I should be doing

as a believer and this is the sign that means I am sealed by the Holy Spirit.

I was a little perturbed because I'm thinking: I was lied to, you know, a little frustrated.

But then I started to operate in this gift but I didn't tell anybody

cause I didn't know anybody else that was doing it.

I knew my husband would not agree with it, I knew my friends would think I'm weird,

so I just practiced this in my time with the Lord.

So, time went on and I realized my husband was just a religious man

and did not know the true Jesus. He just knew Him in his mind.

And so our relationship got very difficult.

And so I started to pray for him that the Lord would do something in his life,

because as I started reading Scripture, I would lay hands on sick people,

they would get healed, I would prophesy, things would happen,

and really messed him up in his head, he would get frustrated with me

and asked me to quit, but I'm like: I can't. This is how I live.

Not long after that, about four years of praying for him,

he receives the Holy Spirit.

And that time we had this dream in our hearts to become missionaries,

and go overseas, and save the lost, and go into the villages, and things like that,

so after he received the Spirit the Lord said: Now you're ready.

Because for 16 months I thought I was ready, and I was ready,

but He was getting us both ready. - That's right.

So, as soon as he received the Spirit, his whole life has changed.

He went from a man who struggled with sin and always stumbling,

and walking in that power, he would share messages at church,

and it sounded great, because he was really good with words,

but there was no power. No one's life was changing.

And I would say something so simple and people would come up like weeping,

and I'm like: Oh my gosh, what's the difference, you know.

So, he receives the Spirit, we go into the nations.

We went to Philippines for a bit and we ended up in Africa.

And while we were in Philippines we were seeing people get "slain in the Spirit",

but then in our hearts we knew: Something was off.

Like, they were hitting the ground, they were screaming, they were yelling,

and in our charismatic background we were told: This is a...

This is the Holy Spirit.

Yeah, 'cause coming from the more Baptist traditional background,

even me from the world into the more traditional background,

and then experiencing the Spirit like I did, I then was kind of open to say:

Okay God, You've broken out my box, I don't want to close You off in any area.

So we were still in this learning place.

But then we started to slowly see things that didn't sit right in our spirits.

But the people around us were confirming that this is the work of the Holy Spirit.

And I remember one specific instance in the Philippines,

when I prayed for a woman, and she began to scream, just a scream of terror.

And in my head I'm going: Why, if God is touching somebody,

why in the world they would be screaming with terror?

And so this led us into our next trip where we were...

- So you prayed? - Yes.

- And the reaction was that? - Yes.

Now we are going to, of course, we are going to talk about what happened,

but today, at that moment, what did you thought it was? You was not sure?

- I wasn't sure, but... - Okay, today, what do you think happened?

Oh, I know what happened. The Holy Spirit was there, but what He was doing

was driving something unclean out. So this woman was manifesting a demon.

But at that time I wasn't aware that this was happening.

Number one, because we were in the church.

So, in my head, in my understanding, because we were in the church,

this woman is a Christian, there's no way she could need deliverance.

So, when she screamed and fell to the ground, the only thing I could do

was say: Thank You, Lord, and walk away.

Now looking back, I weep over that because I knew what I needed to do

in that situation to continue to minister to that woman because she needed freedom.

And before we talk about what happened later,

I want to say to people out there, like...

We want to do a video here, to create a good balance in it,

because you came, like many other people, from non-Holy Spirit-filled background,

and you almost rebuked the Holy Spirit in the beginning.

You were like: Oh, I speak in tongues. Go away! What is happening here?

So, there is, on one side, a lot of people in the Body of Christ today

who have a wrong understanding of the Holy Spirit,

who are going against the work of the Spirit,

and then we have, on the other side,

some people who receive everything as being from the Holy Spirit...

- That's right. - And to find that balance

can be very difficult because

when you come from there, like you did,

you saw that you have been already deceived one time,

so you don't want to go in the same deception again.

You think: Okay, I don't want to be religious, I don't want to be religious,

I don't want to be religious... Let's just receive everything.

And we hope that this video can help people out there to find that balance in it.

So, you prayed, woman in Philippines fell down, was screaming...

You thought... You had questions about it, what is happening?

But it was first later you started to see more of that. What was that?

That's right. So, when we went to Africa, we went to be trained as missionaries,

and us being in that atmosphere with other people, we thought,

everybody's here for the same reasons, so everybody's believers,

followers of Jesus, and they're here to be trained.

There was some ministry that took place in the beginning

and I remember one specific instance where I watched a woman

pray and prophesy over somebody,

and then, maybe a couple days later, we were in class, in a learning environment,

and she falls to the ground and begins to shake and manifest,

foaming from the mouth and growl.

- And she was a Christian? - Yes.

On the Bible school?

She had just been praying and ministering to someone soon before that.

And I remember going to one of the leaders and saying...

This was her second time at the school.

Yes. This was actually her second time. She came this time with her husband.

But I remember going to one of the leaders and asking.

I said: I don't really understand demonic possession or people being demonized.

Can a Christian have demons? He said: Oh absolutely not.

You can be oppressed, but you cannot be possessed.

I said: Okay, what would you consider a Christian having a demon?

I said: How about if they're foaming from the mouth and growling?

He said: Oh, that's definitely a demon. I said: Well, I saw that happen yesterday

and I couldn't wrap my mind around it.

And he was like: Wow, I guess maybe they can.

So this is where my theology kind of started to shift and change,

because I was seeing Christians also needing deliverance,

not necessarily receiving deliverance.

So, as time went on, this particular organization that we were being trained with,

had a strong, a strong focus on being "drunk in the Spirit"

and really experiencing the manifestations, kind of using the terminology of joy,

so using as an opportunity that the more joyful we are,

the more we experience the joy of the Holy Spirit,

the stronger Christians we're gonna be.

But there was something the whole time going on in my spirit,

and I know in her spirit, and even our children, that were there.

One of our sons, our middle son came to us and said:

Dad, there's something not right, I don't think this is the Holy Spirit.

- How old was he then? - He was six.

Six years old.

So we have a six years old who came and said: Daddy, I think there's something off.

We had a deliverance just a few weeks ago.

At one time, we saw the deliverance, and then, at one time,

it went from a real deliverance with a lot of flesh.

There was a woman who was screaming and doing things.

And as soon as it went to the flesh I could see in the kids they became afraid.

- Yes. - And I didn't like it. I said: Hey, stop, stop,

stop now. Hey, hey, you got set free. But what is happening here?

And it's so interesting because I have seen deliverance,

but when God is working, there is no fear, people don't get distracted by it

in a bad way, and fearful, and even the kids... But here you saw.

These were the things that were starting to cause me to be almost divided in my heart,

to say: Is this from the Lord or is this not?

Because, like you said before,

this group of people, it's not like they're doing all the bad things.

It's not like they're all the way over here.

They're caring for the sick, they're caring for the poor.

We saw blind eyes open, we saw healing taking place.

People are in love with Jesus. There is many good things.

But then, on the other side, there was this area where, you know,

our children are fearful and are seeing these manifestations.

Just to give you one example.

We would go into a class, and there would be an option do we want to teach,

do we want to learn from the Word of God or do we want to just "drink from the Spirit".

A lot of times people want, you know, young people, they want the manifestations.

They want to come up and be prayed for, they want to be "slain in the spirit".

This was the first time that we really experienced the "holy laughter"

and seeing people just laugh hysterically for 45 minutes or for an hour plus.

Again, some of these things we were seeing in our children were very frightened by it

and very scared and we're wondering: What do we do here?

Because, again, we want to be open to what God wants to do,

we don't want to be judgmental, but if this is not of God,

I also want to protect my family from that.

And I want to say to people out there, when we talk about those things,

also, for me, we are coming from a place where we did it all,

where we are part of it. I have been part of all of that.

We are not coming in a condemning way to those people who are there,

but we come to say: Hey, we have a big concern, because we were in it,

but we also saw the fruit of it, that there was a lot of flesh,

there was a lot of emotions. If we just take that picture,

do you want to get "drunk" or do you want to learn the Word?

The Word is the transformation. The Word is the truth.

The Word is like a sward that's going to divide. The Word is this.

And I've just seen in some of those circles I was part of

the reason that made me leave that many years ago,

was I saw a lot of manifestations, I saw a lot of things,

but together with that I saw a lot of flesh. - That's right.

And I was thinking at one time: How can those people be so much

under the presence of God, being in God's presence so much

and still have so much flash, have so much sin in their life, and be so bound?

I'm like: Come on, if you feel God so strong and are so close to God,

there should be a transformation, and that was the thing

that made my eyes open to it and I just start do discern it,

and start to see it...

Because you see these people getting touched by the Holy Spirit per se,

but their lives are never changing. They would get off the floor

after laughing or whatever it would take place, and then the next week

they would call or you would see them, and they would be depressed

or sad or bound by sin, and you're like: Man, but every Sunday

you get touched by the Holy Ghost, and you are on the ground, rolling and laughing,

or you're weeping, or whatever it may look like. I'm thinking: If you're getting touched

by the Lord, you should be changing.

So, you started to ask questions.

And your son could see it. Sometimes we need to hear the truth

through our kids. What then happened? How did it continue there?

While we were there, we would start to see all these people prophesy

and do these really "awesome" things, but then at the same time

they were coming to us for advice and asking us questions

and seeking us for wisdom. And I'm thinking:

But you're having these really cool encounters that we're not having,

so like, aren't you this person that we should be looking to?

But they were still bound by sin, or bound by depression, or anxiety,

or their marriage was really in shambles, or whatever that may be.

And so, after a while, we started to realize, like, okay, let's look at the Word

and see what the Word says about what manifestations of the Holy Spirit looked like

and what manifestations of a demon looks like.

Because it's all in here. And so we did. And as I started to look at the times

when the Spirit would come upon a man or a woman, they would prophesy,

they would pray in tongues, they would cry out: Abba, Father!

They would be bold and they would walk in signs and wonders.

And then I started to look at the difference of what it looks like when someone was

having a demonic manifestation and it said that demon would throw person

to the ground or in the water, in the fire, or they would shake

and there was these spirits of epilepsy and things like that,

that you would see this shaking, and I'm like: Hmm, okay,

what I'm seeing is not the Holy Spirit; what I'm seeing is demonic.

And one thing being drunk, of course it's twisting the Word, but

Bible says we should not get drunk. We should be sober.

But then let's be filled by the Spirit. But filled by the Spirit is not like a...

Could you imagine Jesus walking around there like...

Um... um... um... um...

One of the fruits of the Spirit is the self-control. Kindness, all of that.

And it's interesting because I saw, together with the manifestations,

I saw at that time, I saw people laying on the floor and manifesting

many years ago. And at one time I saw like, it was like sexual manifestation,

like fleshly thing came in, and I saw mix of all of it.

And I'm like: What is happening?

People often ask me: Can Christians have demons?

And my response is: Of course, yes.

Should Christians have demons? No, of course not.

But, in the perfect world, people go into a strong, strong repentance,

they receive the baptism in water and they get set free from the old life

and they receive the Holy Spirit. And in that, there is the deliverance,

the old life is gone with, you are delivered and it's a new life.

So, Christians should not have demons. Of course not.

But we have people who come into Christianity without understanding true repentance,

without burying the old life in baptism in water, without the Holy Spirit,

without being set free from those demons, and if they never got set free,

of course they will still have it.

Then the whole thing about the Bible possess and... what is the word you use?

Christians can be... possessed... oppressed.

It's a wrong translation. And there is a whole teaching.

Like, okay, we are demonized.

And I'm like: Can people be demonized. Can people be under the attack?

I would say: After I got Holy Spirit filled, I've been experiencing attacks.

The war is real, but of course it's not a possession.

But I will say, often, I don't think I've ever seen people being possessed.

Those possessed don't sit on a meeting. Those possessed are in the mental hospital

or the place we don't come near. So, I think, for me, I'm very simple.

Okay, people can believe what they want, but I'm like: If you see a demon - cast it out,

if you see a demon and say: Okay, do you believe in God? Yeah, I believe in God.

Okay, then you cannot have demons. I'm like: If you see a demon - cast it out.

And those people who are very, very clear and say: Christians cannot have demons.

I often say: Okay, so you believe Christians cannot have demons.

Yeah, Christians cannot have demons. Okay, then show me

how do you cast demons out of non-Christians.

Um, I don't. No, you don't.

You don't cast demons out of anyone.

Because as soon as you start to cast demons out, you will see that they are in the church,

outside the church, they are in the pulpit.

They are in the leadership.

That's right. I was reading the story, you know, in Acts chapter 8,

when we see Philip going to Samaria. And it hit me one day.

Because this very question came up in my heart.

And I thought to myself: If demons automatically left when you became a Christian

that would totally eliminate the ministry of casting out demons.

Jesus would have just instructed us to lead people to Himself,

because it took conversion and then to baptize them,

and we wouldn't have to worry about them, but very fact that we have to cast out demons

or we are commanded to, tells us that they don't automatically leave.

For me, if you look at demons, demons can be the cause of depression, fear,

but also the physical sickness. There was a blind guy, or deaf-and-dumb guy in the Bible,

where the demon and the deaf-and-dumb demon left him and he could speak and hear.

So, let's say we have a guy here who has depression...

or a blind, or something that is caused by demonic.

In that second he becomes a Christian, if Christians cannot have demons,

in that second he become a Christian that means that he's healed. He's free.

But we see that you can give your life to Jesus and still walk with some of those baggage.

Until you get prayed for and deal with that case.

But let's go back to you. So, you start to see it and...

What happened?

One particular thing I want to share is... So, our six-year-old son was very discerning

and recognizing a lot of these things weren't of the Lord,

but our oldest son was actually a little more involved and he actually wanted

to receive prayer. He saw some of the other people engaging and so he actually received

the prayer from one of the leaders there. And when he did, he fell to the ground

and he began to laugh and roll. And I was watching this happened.

Again in my heart going: What? What shall I do?

Because I don't want to stop him from encountering God,

but also if it's not God I want to stop it.

And he looked as almost like he was in pain, like he was holding his stomach,

so he had this encounter and he continued to roll, and people came up to us like:

That's so amazing that your son was touched by God.

Fast forward, we come home

and he had come up to us with a certain situation where he wanted to share the gospel

with one of his friends his age. He seemed a little shy and uncertain,

so we wanted to pray for him first.

And when we went to pray for him, he got really scared and told us to stop.

We said: buddy, what's going on? He said: I'm starting to feel that same feeling

when that man prayed for me in Africa. And I don't like it. I didn't like it.

And I looked at her and said: Whoa, this is not right.

Because we asked the Holy Spirit to come and fill him with boldness

so he could share the gospel to this friend of his

and when the Spirit of God came upon him, whatever had attached itself to him in Africa

started to not like the presence of the Spirit. So he said: Stop praying for me.

And I said: Why? He said: Because I don't want that to happen again.

I don't ever want it to happen again. So we said: Son, it's nothing to be afraid of.

Mom and dad know what to do. We're gonna break this off right now

in the name of Jesus. So we just commanded that spirit to leave.

And we asked the Holy Spirit to come and fill him.

And my son set there on the couch and started to pray in tongues for the first time.

So you are actually saying that he got influenced by wrong spirit in a Bible school.

- Aha. - By a Christian leader who laid hands on him?

Yeah.

This is just reality, and this is what is happening, and if we don't like to talk about it

- don't make it disappear. It is reality and we have just seen that again and again.

And as I said in one of the videos...

One of the reasons I did a video a short time ago it's because

we meet more and more people who get a wrong spirit in the church.

Some people in the beginning think: Oh, it's the Holy Spirit. It's really good.

But then they start to feel there's something off.

The strongest example I have - There was a woman in Denmark

who came to me some years ago. She came to a Christian meeting

in Denmark and somebody laid hands on her,

she was rolling around on the floor, and so on.

That thing became so much that for years she could not attend any Christian meetings,

she could not hear worship. As she heard worship, she just felt:

Oh no, I cannot... Like this is bubbling up in me.

And it went and continued and continued. At the end she actually said that

that raped her. That was like a demon that raped her.

And it's really like shocking that it happened in the church.

Then some people would say: No, no, it doesn't happen in the church.

It is just because they had the wrong spirit already and then in the church

somebody prayed for them and it comes up,

but your son...

he didn't have a lot of wrong spirit. It happened there.

And it's just a reality. And I would say: But, again, if people see our videos,

we often... we see people fall down. People say: Hey, you do the same.

The difference between me 15 years ago and today is that when people

fall down 15 years ago, I did not know more. I was standing and saying: More Lord, more Lord.

And then I went to the next. Now when people fall down, I sit down and say:

Come out in the name of Jesus! Come out in the name of Jesus!

And people often don't see that on the video, when people fall down.

- So they think it's the same. Yeah. - It's very different.

So we come home from Africa. We deal with our son in this way,

and our minds are racing and we're like: if our son could have something

attached to him, who else? Because he's innocent.

So, we started bringing a group of couples into our home,

which we were living with my mom at the time.

So we're meeting with them in their homes, they would come over to my mom's home,

and my mom would hear a share about proper baptism and what it really means.

She would hear us talk about proper repentance and what that looks like,

and receiving the Holy Spirit, and as she's listening to these things,

one of the couples in our group and one of the guys in our group was like:

I need to be baptized, I need to repent properly and I need to receive the Holy Spirit,

things like that, and some freedom came through that.

So we baptized them, and all those things. And my mom comes to ask us:

I think I need to be baptized. Like, I've never heard it this way,

but as I'm reading the Scriptures, it's becoming very clear to me this is true.

- And she was a church person? - Yes.

My mom's been in church for 25 years...

Church 25 years, but I never heard it this way.

Yeah. When I was younger, she was in the church, and she truly repented of her sins

25 years ago, because I remember her going from me going to my aunt's

on the weekend so she could go to the bar - to now, she's at home with me

and she's taking me to church and she's not smoking anymore,

and all these things. So her life changed a lot because she got a new conscience.

She could no longer live in that sin, but she never dealt with her unforgiveness,

no one ever taught her about that, and she never dealt with

certain things that kind of came with her into her new life.

So she was baptized, but she just thought she had to do it for the congregation.

It doesn't say that. The eunuch in the desert was with one man, by himself.

It wasn't for a crowd. It's between you and the Lord

and what He's doing in the posture of faith when you go under that water

and come up a new creation. So she's like: I think I need to be baptized.

And I said: Okay. So we meet her a week later or so

at our friend's house at a pool and the day before we met her

I'm praying and the Holy Spirit said to me: Your mom's gonna get delivered tomorrow.

It's not just a baptism. And I'm thinking: My 62 year old mom,

who's been in the church for 25 years is going to get delivered.

What in the world is that going to look like?

I said something to him, and he's like: I heard the same thing.

And I said: Okay. I don't know what we're gonna do with when it does happen,

but we'll gonna figure it out.

And so we get to the water the next day and I told my mom:

We're gonna share the gospel with you, like you've never heard it before.

Because anytime we baptize somebody or if they're being re-baptized,

because they miss something of the gospel the first time that they didn't understand,

and they're still struggling with things, so need to re-hear the gospel,

the proper gospel. She said: Okay.

So we shared the gospel with her and she starts to properly repent of her sins.

I mean, just the presence of God comes and she starts to confess things,

things to her daughter she probably didn't think she would ever to confess.

And I'm just weeping, because I'm like: This is the beauty of truth,

this is where freedom begins, as that repentance.

I said: Okay, mom, now that you're done we're gonna baptize you.

So we put her under the water and she comes up out of the water

and she starts to, like drunk and stumble in the water.

And I'm thinking: Okay, my charismatic circle would say - this is Jesus.

But this is not Jesus. And all of the sudden Justin just with this

righteous anger said: Every unclean spirit you come out of her right now!

And my 62 year old mother cripples over in the water and starts to vomit and scream

and thrash in the water. And I'm like: Okay, it's not the Holy Spirit.

We've been right in our hearts this whole time.

And so we start casting this thing out. It took us a bit time,

but after that time was over, she got completely free

and she said at the very end, when she let out this last scream,

something crawled out of her body and she could see it.

And it was dark and it was ugly and that had been living there for 30, 40 years,

who knows how long.

We said: Mom, now that you're free, the Bible says you must fill that empty place.

Because if not, they'll come back. And she said: Fill me up.

I've been crying out for the Holy Spirit for two years. Please, ask Him to come.

So we asked the Holy Spirit to come. And my mom gets filled

and she starts praying in tongues. No one prompted her.

No one told her she had to do it. It just came out of her.

And she looked at me and she said: This is what the love of God feels like.

And I said: Yes. And she said: And this means that He approves of me.

And I said: Absolutely. She said: For two years I was feeling

rejected by God, but it's because I was so consumed with other spirits,

that I could not receive what He wanted to give me.

My mom's whole entire life has changed since then.

She could read the Bible, she would forget things,

and now we're watching her teach people the scriptures in groups and share,

and like never before remember things she couldn't remember.

And it's been an amazing transformation.

Laying hands on sick people, seeing them recovered,

like a documented miracle happened. She laid hands on a girl

who needed a knee surgery. She'd already had a knee surgery,

did something to the knee again, laid hands on that knee,

and the girl flew to Maryland to see a doctor and the doctor said:

There's nothing wrong with you. And my mom told her:

When I lay hands on you, you're gonna get to that doctor and they're gonna tell you

nothing's wrong with you.

My mother did that and I'm just like: this is the life of the Spirit-filled believer.

She has self-control she had never had before, and all this different things.

At that point we're thinking: Who else has demons? You know.

And from that point forward we've seen probably 100 to 200 people set free

in Alamance County, in a small town, and 90% of them are church people.

Of course, it's not everything that's demonic. Lot of the time it's really taking the time

to go through the gospel, to talk about what true repentance is

and baptism in water and with the Holy Spirit is,

to really take the time to go through the gospel, but...

many people really need deliverance.

And that is just reality.

When we talk about... I want to say something, because I know...

What I've seen is difficult, when we talk about wrong spirits in churches,

there have been different movements, and also in America,

where God have done amazing things, but there have also been a lot of things,

wrong things.

The way I see it is that, when God is working, when the Holy Spirit is really there,

demonic things need to come up, and it reacts.

But in many places deliverance have been thrown out at the back door.

So, when the manifestations happen, instead of discerning:

Hey, this is really the work of the Holy Spirit, but it's demonic manifestations we see

because the Holy Spirit is working, let's cast it out.

It ends out that that demonic manifestations become like: Wow,

look, this is God, this is God, this is God.

And now there is people who are seeking it and want it.

They are actually seeking demonic manifestations, and it's scary.

Our concern is that it's spreading very fast and I also know you met somebody

who went to another place, a Bible school,

and they home with a lot of manifestations. Can you tell about that?

We had a friend that we had discipled for some time, go to a ministry,

and they came home and they were doing this: Whoa... and things, when they would pray.

And I'm like: Are you okay? Because you were walking in the power of the Holy Spirit

before you went there, and now you come back and you're doing that.

I said: Do I need to cast that out or is that just your flesh?

And if it's your flesh, you need to stop it. And they never did it again.

So we realized like: Okay, this is a fleshly issue and we had another friend

go to the same place and I said to them: Please don't come back doing that,

because if you do, I will call you out of your flesh or I will cast that thing out of you,

because you have to have discernment on. First of all, people laying hands on you,

don't receive everything they're saying. You test those spirits.

You test those things behind what you're doing.

And just because you see someone else doing something and it looks good,

doesn't mean you do it, just for fun.

I would say when it comes to discerning, there is the Spirit of God

and there is a spirit of Satan, demons. But then there is a big, big, big

fleshly thing in the middle. Because often what I would see is like

it's very often in closed settings where the manifestations happen.

I would say: God is as near outside, but you don't see people standing

in a shopping mall like: Uh... And they're like: Uh...

And start to evangelize. You don't see that.

You see it in settings. And what I saw, for me,

when we talk about "drunk in the spirit", I was at meetings where people

were "drunk in the spirit" many years ago.

I was an usher, I was helping carrying people out in the car.

And I was young, new in the faith. I just love it.

Lot of things. People were falling down all over the place, and I loved it.

A lot of things happened. I did not know better.

And we carried people out in the car. They were "drunk in the spirit".

A few years later God started to open my eyes for it.

I started to look back at the fruit and I saw what was missing.

And then I came to a meeting where there was a lot of those manifestations,

but now I'm like: I couldn't handle it, I couldn't stand it anymore,

because I just saw things.

But at that meeting

a drug-addict came and she said something. She said: I know this.

We do this also. And I'm like: What?

So, she'd never been in church before, she comes from outside,

she comes to a church where people are like: Hey... and laughing and rolling around

on the floor. She said: I know it. We do it often.

And I'm like: You cannot know it. You've never been in church before.

No, we call it dry-fixing. Dry-fixing? Yeah.

Because when we don't have money to take drugs, we pretend to take drugs.

So we do like this... You. And they... Ha...

And what they actually start, they start to hyperventilate, they start to breathe...

If I do this enough time... I start to feel tingling in my hands...

And my hands start to go like this... And I start to feel a lot of things.

And when she said that, it was like...

I have been in a church where we had 200 people rolling around hyperventilating.

Because the way we had, we were like: We a drinking, come on, drinking...

Do you want it?

And then the whole laughter thing.

Laughter thing, even in the world today there is laughter clubs.

There's nothing wrong with laughing. We did it in the summer house vacation

many years ago. We just: Hey, lets laugh. Ha-ha-ha...

It's nice to laugh. And at one time we all start to laugh, because it was so silly.

We were laughing. I had so much pain in my stomach. I was laughing.

I was walking. I couldn't be in the room because I heard them laugh,

no matter where I was. And I was laughing, laughing.

There's nothing wrong with laughing. The problem is that we say:

Hey, look, this is the proof that God is there.

It's just laughing. It's just hyperventilating, very often. In many cases.

Sometimes it can be demonic, but there can also be people who fall down sincerely

Holy Spirit and get set free.

And that is the thing. That discerning, for me, that we saw that.

We did that, and it was fleshly.

When you can stop it - just take control and stop it. Then you know it's fleshly.

When you cannot stop it - it's demonic. You need help. You need somebody to pray over you.

If I can say one thing, because people may ask about the whole flesh thing,

maybe: what's wrong with that?

I've noticed that even with what you're saying about the hyperventilating

that I was even in some of those conferences to where I've seen

these things happening, and as soon I saw that I felt the pressure for me

to begin to experience that, because maybe if I didn't experience that,

then I felt left out. And that's what actually caused me to start to, kind of,

do this, put myself in this place to where I was okay, and then I would you would,

you started your heart rate goes up, you start to feel the tingling:

Oh, there is God. And what it is, it's just like the verse that you brought up

in Corinthians. What he's saying is, he's saying that...

I'm worried that just as the serpent deceived Eve, you have been deceived

in your mind, so you've been led astray from the pure and simple devotion to Christ.

Meaning, your devotion have left Christ and gone elsewhere.

So I found myself in those moments with my devotion on manifestations

instead on Jesus Christ, and that's where deception comes in.

And I think if you're not careful, it can start out as a flesh thing,

but the devil realizes: That person thinks this is God, and he slips in,

and he does displace himself as something that is like God and it's not,

and then you become very susceptible to being deceived

in a worser way then just by your flesh.

For me, when I recognized that much of it was flesh,

I started to ask questions. One time I came into a really dark period,

because I started to think: How much have been wrong?

But God really touched me at that time and I got transformed at that time.

Was that also wrong? And it's so easy to reject everything,

but it's not everything that's wrong.

And sometimes the Holy Spirit really comes.

And now, if you can hear a sound, it's because we have a little baby...

they have a little baby downstairs, but it's fine.

And that is the challenge also, when I do a video like this,

I really don't want you to reject Christ. I don't want you to reject the Holy Spirit.

- God is working. - And you need Him.

You need Him. But I hope a video like this will just give you that thing like...

Check in your spirit.

Because the problem is that in those settings where we see all of this often,

there is a lot of preaching about: "Don't be religious, don't be religious,

don't put God in a box." I've heard that. "Don't put God in a box. Don't be religious."

In a way that normal discernment is put away,

but I will say: Of course don't be religious,

but discern, as God commanded us to do.

But don't reject the good thing in it. And take the good things out of it

and then move from there and experience the presence of God where is...

something with self-control and...

you just know God is there. It's stronger then if I feel a tingling,

it's stronger then if I feel something or falling down.

It's just you know He's there.

What would you say in the end to people out there

who are seeing this video, and so on, and you can look there.

What do you want to say to people?

I would come off exactly what you ended with and that is:

Don't fall into either ditch.

Don't fall into the ditch where you reject everything because you're so fearful

of being deceived, but also, don't be so open and live without discernment

to where you're receiving every spirit that wants to come in,

because that's where the enemy will take advantage and he will slip in like a snake

and deceive you. So, we need to bring a biblical discernment back into the Body of Christ.

These videos are not to just reject everybody and put everybody up in shame them.

This is to say: We need need to wake up in the Body of Christ

and if you're in those movements and you're witnessing those things -

speak up. Begin to question those things, based on what the Scriptures say

and how they line up, and maybe that will welcome in discernment for the leaders

of these movements and will be able to... really be able to discern what is of God,

what is of the Holy Spirit and what is trying to sneak in and slip in

and cause deception in the church.

I think the same thing for me, as I've very passionate to make sure

that people are truly receiving the Holy Spirit and not just a false spirit

or no spirit, because the Scripture is very clear to get to the end of this journey,

you have to be sealed for your inheritance that is waiting for you.

In Ephesians is very clear on that. A lot of times I'll minister with people,

and they're like: I have the Spirit, but I'm like, tell me why, what demonstrates

or what do you know, or what evidence do you have that you have Him,

and they have none. So, don't reject Him. You need Him.

But also, don't just open yourself up to anything and everything

that's out there, because it's not all Him.

And if you need help with that, find people that are wise in that area

and talk to them and discuss it, and seek the right spirit,

and test it with the Word of God.

Don't become a heretic hunter in that way that you're just focused

on all the wrong things. Focus on Christ, focus on the true life,

but just have that check in your spirit. If you are Spirit-filled, it's very often -

you just feel it. And I believe that sheep hear the voice of the Father,

but we need somebody to check it and there to speak it out,

and I hope this is what this video would do. And then I would say -

go in and see the true gospel.

Because what I think it's most beautiful with what I see we are doing now,

is the fruit of the transformed life. Like what you saw with your mom

and many other people.

If I look back at my years, in the charismatic movement many years ago.

We were running around the chairs and looking in people's mouth for gold teeth and

feathers and all of this. I have never, at that time, seen transformed lives

in the same volume we see now, where it goes so much deeper.

We see marriages get restored, we see people get set free

and life a holy life, and not addicted to porn on the internet,

and not lying and steeling, but it's really a transformed life.

And that makes me bold, because I know Satan can copy many things,

but He cannot copy holiness. He cannot copy a transformed life.

- That is the fruit that you trust. - That is the fruit.

You see that God is good because if someone's life is transformed -

it's from God. So, test the fruit. Don't talk about what you think

somebody's doing. Look at the fruit they're producing.

When you talk about the manifestations, for me, first time I really experienced God,

it was like electricity, I felt it like that, come to my body.

I saw like a light, I fell to the floor. I stood up and I was changed forever.

It was a deep, deep, deep, deep transformation. I don't know what happened.

I know I got the Holy Spirit. I don't know if I get delivered at the same time.

I'm not against people experience a manifestation

when they stand up and walk out and are changed forever.

But I would also say, after that, there was a few years I still came in that

where it became... something you did for the sake of doing it more

and that was not the same transformation.

So, I would say, what we are for is transformation, true transformation.

I hope this video will help you. Otherwise, we have other videos about it.

See it. Just check it in your spirit and then share it, of course,

but don't go in one of those ditches where you become a heretic hunter

and go against everything, and throw away the Holy Spirit

and what God is really doing, but also not go to the other ditch

where you don't have any discernment and just receive everything.

Because we are called to experience the presence of God,

we are called to discern, but we are also called to cast out demons.

So, I would say, next time you see a manifestation like this,

like you saw with your mom,

in two seconds you are like: Oh, our church tradition is saying -

Oh, it's the Holy Spirit. But now, like: Hey, come out in the name of Jesus!

And then it became clear what it is. And I would say: If people just take that:

"Come out in the name of Jesus!" and you will very fast see

what we are dealing with. - That's right.

God bless you! Bye-bye!

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