All language subtitles for Martin.Scorsese.Presents.The.Saints.S02E03.1080p.HEVC.x265-MeGusta[EZTVx.to]

af Afrikaans
ak Akan
sq Albanian
am Amharic
ar Arabic Download
hy Armenian
az Azerbaijani
eu Basque
be Belarusian
bem Bemba
bn Bengali
bh Bihari
bs Bosnian
br Breton
bg Bulgarian
km Cambodian
ca Catalan
ceb Cebuano
chr Cherokee
ny Chichewa
zh-CN Chinese (Simplified)
zh-TW Chinese (Traditional)
co Corsican
hr Croatian Download
cs Czech
da Danish
nl Dutch
en English Download
eo Esperanto
et Estonian
ee Ewe
fo Faroese
tl Filipino
fi Finnish
fr French
fy Frisian
gaa Ga
gl Galician
ka Georgian
de German
el Greek
gn Guarani
gu Gujarati
ht Haitian Creole
ha Hausa
haw Hawaiian
iw Hebrew
hi Hindi
hmn Hmong
hu Hungarian
is Icelandic
ig Igbo
id Indonesian
ia Interlingua
ga Irish
it Italian
ja Japanese
jw Javanese
kn Kannada
kk Kazakh
rw Kinyarwanda
rn Kirundi
kg Kongo
ko Korean
kri Krio (Sierra Leone)
ku Kurdish
ckb Kurdish (Soranî)
ky Kyrgyz
lo Laothian
la Latin
lv Latvian
ln Lingala
lt Lithuanian
loz Lozi
lg Luganda
ach Luo
lb Luxembourgish
mk Macedonian
mg Malagasy
ms Malay
ml Malayalam
mt Maltese
mi Maori
mr Marathi
mfe Mauritian Creole
mo Moldavian
mn Mongolian
my Myanmar (Burmese)
sr-ME Montenegrin
ne Nepali
pcm Nigerian Pidgin
nso Northern Sotho
no Norwegian
nn Norwegian (Nynorsk)
oc Occitan
or Oriya
om Oromo
ps Pashto
fa Persian
pl Polish
pt-BR Portuguese (Brazil) Download
pt Portuguese (Portugal) Download
pa Punjabi
qu Quechua
ro Romanian Download
rm Romansh
nyn Runyakitara
ru Russian
sm Samoan
gd Scots Gaelic
sr Serbian
sh Serbo-Croatian
st Sesotho
tn Setswana
crs Seychellois Creole
sn Shona
sd Sindhi
si Sinhalese
sk Slovak
sl Slovenian
so Somali
es Spanish
es-419 Spanish (Latin American) Download
su Sundanese
sw Swahili
sv Swedish
tg Tajik
ta Tamil
tt Tatar
te Telugu
th Thai
ti Tigrinya
to Tonga
lua Tshiluba
tum Tumbuka
tr Turkish
tk Turkmen
tw Twi
ug Uighur
uk Ukrainian
ur Urdu
uz Uzbek
vi Vietnamese
cy Welsh
wo Wolof
xh Xhosa
yi Yiddish
yo Yoruba
zu Zulu

Original subtitles

[ choir vocalizing ]

♪♪

-These are stories of the saints.

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

[ singing in latin ]

Thomas becket was consecrated as archbishop

Of canterbury in 1162.

This was a position second only in power to the king.

♪♪

But in the ceremony, there was a pivotal moment

When becket was called upon

To select a random passage from the gospels.

Jesus cursing the fruitless fig tree.

-The gospel according to saint matthew 21:19,

"never shall fruit be born of thee throughout eternity.

And it was forthwith cast into the fire."

[ spectators murmuring ]

-It was a troubling omen.

♪♪

The story of thomas becket

Is the story of the pitched battle between church and state

In England,

Of which institution would win ultimate power over the other.

♪♪

-Most merciful god, forgive me for what I'm about to do.

-The battle over the divine right of kings

Lasted hundreds of years

And left a long line of martyrs in its wake.

Becket was the most famous.

So famous that henry viii tried to strike his memory

From every record in existence.

Becket was the son of fairly prosperous,

Devoutly catholic norman immigrants

Who lived in the cheapside section of london.

He was a man of great ambition,

Still searching for an opportunity.

-God.

Come, holy spirit,

And bring down from heaven a ray of thy light.

Without thy influence, there is nothing in man

Which is not weakness and guilt.

Oh, cleanse that which is sordid,

Bend that which is stubborn.

Guide that which is wandering.

-At this moment, the monarchy was in turmoil.

When king henry I died,

His daughter matilda staked her claim,

But the norman barons refused to accept a woman on the throne,

And they backed her cousin stephen,

Which led to a brutal civil war.

And in the midst of all this strife,

Becket had an interview with theobald,

The archbishop of canterbury.

-Have the carriers arrived?

-They're coming, my lord.

-I want to finish the letter to chichester.

-Of course.

-That matters within your jurisdiction should come to us.

-Now, theobald was caught in the middle of the conflict

Because he'd sided with matilda.

-I'm told you're eager to learn and quick to speak your mind.

-I cannot say, my lord. That's for others to decide.

-I have no time for modesty,

But much need of able minds and eloquent tongues.

-I understand you, my lord.

-Even a lowborn man such as yourself,

If he proves useful,

Can improve his station through our holy mother church.

-The carriers, my lord.

-Tomorrow we move to my surrey estates.

These men are for my coffers,

Which go wherever I go in time of war.

-Nothing could be left to chance, I understand.

-We shall see.

-Theobald was wealthy.

He had palaces in canterbury and rochester and southwood.

Homes in sussex, middlesex and surrey.

He collected ecclesiastical fees and tithes to the church,

As well as feudal dues from all the territories he controlled.

To rise in the church was to have real power,

But it was a constant struggle to hold on to that power,

To use it not in the interest of the crown,

But in the interest of promoting the teachings of jesus

In everyday life.

-If I had wanted the order of service to be rearranged,

I would have called for it!

-The original order of the service

Is sanctified by ancient custom.

-I need no reminder from lowborn ignorant men!

-The archbishop is well aware of the venerable nature

Of practice customs,

Which is why his very...Slight alteration in the order

Of blessings is founded in church precedent.

-Where can this be found?

-In the fourth decretum of damasus.

-Precisely.

♪♪

Ah!

Well-played, thomas.

-Thank you, my lord.

-I should have castled my king.

Another game?

-If you wish.

-Theobald gave some of the money he was making

From surrounding churches to becket.

And so becket became rich.

Now, to modernize, it might look like corruption,

But within the world of the church in 12th century europe,

It was more of a necessity.

Theobald educated him with a tutor.

He sent him to bologna and other universities

To study canon and roman law.

Maintaining the political balance

Between the church and the king.

Between defiance and compromise.

This was a constant exercise for theobald while stephen was king.

Sometimes he gave stephen what he wanted.

Sometimes he stood firm,

But he always walked a political tightrope.

In fact, theobald went into exile more than once

And becket made sure that he came back safely.

-Once you reach ostend, an oarsman will take you to dover.

John will have a man there who will supply you with a horse.

Then you'll be escorted to canterbury and home.

-I'll be recognized. -There will be clothing for you.

You'll have to arrive at night.

-Like a thief. -It's the safest way.

And it's hardly even more than three months this time.

-Three months? Three years?

It's a terrible thing to have to flee your own country

With mother church in your hands.

I pray it may never happen to you.

Come on.

-Eventually, matilda's son, henry, the duke of normandy,

Arrived in England with knights and a mercenary army

To take up his mother's war for the throne

And to secure his own place as the rightful heir to the throne.

After nearly two decades of destructive war,

Neither side came out victorious.

Theobald and becket worked both parties to negotiate a truce,

Careful to avoid accusations of treason.

They urged king stephen to make peace with henry and matilda.

♪♪

And as the brokers of this peace,

They took the opportunity to cement the power

Of the church as well.

♪♪

Henry was really impressed by becket,

And he understood that he had played a decisive part

In the negotiations.

Theobald rewarded becket for his part in the negotiations

By elevating him to the post of archdeacon of canterbury.

But within 10 months, stephen died from a sudden illness

And henry was crowned king.

♪♪

-Thomas.

-My lord.

-Walk with me, thomas.

How are you enjoying your work?

-Oh, well, sir, I very much like working for the archbishop.

He is a dedicated man of god.

-Mm. I hear you're quite the chess player.

-I enjoy the game.

-A game of strategy. -Entirely.

-And cunning. -Indeed.

-I'm going to give you a larger board to play on, thomas.

I like a man of strategy and cunning.

I like him even better in my court.

♪♪

Ah, what a beautiful day.

-Some believe that there was a real friendship

Between becket and henry.

Others differ.

Now, the truth is probably somewhere in

Between the kind of friendship you find in the business world.

You know, mutual warmth, affection,

And then it can just disappear at the drop of a hat.

Henry made becket his lord chancellor.

This was the second most powerful position

In the government.

But at the same time,

Becket kept his high office in the church

As archdeacon of canterbury.

-It's as I expected.

I laid the groundwork for this very carefully, you know.

-I understand you.

-That's the point. You, of all people,

Understand that the church is god's instrument on earth.

That it serves as a vital check

On the greed and corruption of the ground.

That its independence and power must be preserved at any cost.

And to do so,

The church needs trustworthy eyes and ears

At the king's court.

-Yes. Of course.

-If you prove yourself worthy,

This will be good for us and for holy mother church.

A steadying influence.

Thomas, I want you to remember something.

Never trust the words of princes or kings.

Never.

♪♪

-Becket lived like a king.

I mean, that's what was expected of a member of the king's court,

Especially the lord chancellor, most of all.

He had a fleet of ships for channel crossings,

A company of knights, an army of servants, a private zoo.

Finest foods and wines, kitchen staff.

In many ways, the lowborn norman immigrant lived

A more lavish lifestyle than henry.

So what did becket think?

That he could actually answer to both theobald and henry

At the same time?

When henry invaded toulouse,

It was becket's job as lord chancellor to finance the war.

He levied new taxes, and the burden fell on the church,

On the bishops and the abbots, including archbishop theobald.

And becket, as henry's enforcer,

Just bled his old mentor dry.

Theobald actually wrote to becket

And pleaded with him

To drop the taxes on the parishes in canterbury.

These were taxes from which becket himself was profiting.

Becket never even answered him.

-[ coughs ]

-Theobald paved the way for becket's appointment

As lord chancellor because he wanted an inside man.

So becket's reversal is a terrible betrayal.

-You have often been called,

And you ought to have answered a single summons to my side now

That I am old and ill.

Indeed it is to be feared that god may punish your tardiness

If you shut your ears to the call of obedience,

Forgetting the benefits you have received,

And despising me,

Whom you should have carried on your shoulders

In my final sickness.

-What did becket feel in his heart?

Was it shame?

Was he wanting to explain himself to theobald?

Or did he now see himself as henry's man?

We can't know.

But what we do know is that he never saw theobald alive again.

And the death of theobald

Created a very convenient opportunity, a vacuum of power

That henry had to fill very quickly.

-Just look at me, my lord.

How religious is the man

That you want to point to that holy office?

-You're my man,

And I want my man to be archbishop of canterbury.

-Your majesty,

Are you truly asking me to choose between the archbishopric

And the chancellorship?

-Why, the opposite. Think of it, thomas.

The power of the crown and the power of the church.

One and the same.

Years of opposition and bickering

Abolished with a few drops of holy oil upon your forehead.

Hmm?

-My lord,

I must reflect in solitude and prayer

On this decision, alone with my god.

-It's fine.

And I'll think of the earliest possible date

For your investiture.

Think of it, thomas.

Please understand...

It's not a request.

-I, thomas becket,

Chosen archbishop of the cathedral of canterbury

And the sea of canterbury,

Do profess and promise all due respect and obedience

To our holy father, pope alexander,

And all of his successors, so help me god.

Through jesus christ.

Lord, I confess my weakness for the things of this world.

The things, so many things.

And I ask for your guidance.

What must I do, lord?

I know that my responsibility is to holy mother church,

To her protection.

So what must I do?

I pray that you allow me to walk in your way.

[ singing in latin ]

♪♪

To follow your example.

[ singing continues ]

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

-The new role of archbishop of canterbury

Seemed to increase becket's faith.

And very quickly,

His relationship with the king changed, dramatically.

[ knock on door ]

-Come in. [ door opens ]

-Your majesty,

We've just received an urgent message from canterbury.

-So deliver it in a low tone.

-We've been told that the new archbishop of canterbury

Has just resigned as his majesty's chancellor.

-What news are you bringing me of this lowborn wretch?

Doesn't have the heart to tell me.

Eye to eye! [ screams ]

I'll have him groveling on his knees and kissing my feet!

-Theobald had thought that placing becket

As lord chancellor would give him an opportunity

To have an inside man to work on the king,

And the king, vice versa.

He thought having becket as his lord chancellor

Would give him a way to influence the church.

They were both wrong.

It started four months

After becket was consecrated as archbishop,

A constant tug of war.

-It is not right that the will of the monarchy

Should interfere in ecclesiastical matters,

Nor that the hands of royal clerks

Should find themselves in church coffers.

I hereby demand that you return all lands,

Properties and incomes

You so unlawfully seized from the church.

-You will redirect the receipt of all funds collected

To the office of the chancellor,

Your former position,

Which I myself now occupy as a result

Of your ill-considered decision to resign the post.

-Little by little, henry stripped becket of all his lands

And the fees he collected from them.

This threatened thomas, and he responded

By excommunicating one of henry's noblemen.

-By the authority vested in me by almighty god,

I hereby issue this decree of excommunication

Against william of eynsford

For grave offenses committed against the laws and doctrines

Of our holy mother church,

And for persistently refusing to repent and amend his ways,

Despite repeated admonitions and warnings.

He is hereby cut off from the body of the faithful,

Cut off from the sanctity of the church,

And deprived of all spiritual privileges and benefits thereof.

-Excommunication. To be excommunicated

Meant to be cast out of the church.

You became an exile in your own world.

That ruthlessness becket displayed when he was

Lord chancellor now was turned on the king.

Excommunication was becket's most powerful weapon,

And he could even use it against henry,

Stripping him of his right to rule.

-He did what?

He did what?!

Am I not a patient man?!

Have I not given him grace?!

Now I have no more love for him!

-At the time, if a member of the clergy committed any crime

From theft to murder,

He was tried and punished by the ecclesiastical court,

The church court, and kept protected from the king's court,

The king's justice.

When a priest committed murder and rape,

The power struggle between thomas and henry

Escalated even more.

-A priest who murders a man in his own home

So that he could freely ravage that man's daughter

In a bed of hay,

And he is entitled to protection from the royal courts.

-He was punished, of course.

-Beheaded and deboweled is what he deserves.

-The church does not mete out corporal punishment,

As you know, lest in the --

-Don't you quote canon law to me!

You think nothing of excommunicating my nobles,

But your murderous priest is exempt from the highest law

Of the land, the crown?

-Again, sire, he was treated with the highest severity

That canon law dictates.

-God's eyes, I'll have that man hanging from my gallows

With a fortnight.

-Not as long as the law of the church stands

And my bishops are behind me.

-My bishops!

-These are men ordained by god,

And they will be judged by god

Alone through the instrument of the church.

-Where is this in canon law?

-No greater authority than canon law.

These are the words of saint jerome.

A mere man should not exact twofold vengeance

For one single fault when god, judge of all men,

As it is written, judges no one twice for the same offense.

-By god's eyes,

You mete out a slap on the wrist and god says

We cannot punish him again?

-It is our desire to heed your will in all things,

My good lord, worshipfully,

If it does not go against that which is right.

If it obstructs the will of god

And the laws and dignity of our holy church,

We won't dare give our assent to it.

-On this day, I put the question to you all,

And directly to you, archbishop.

And the question is a simple one.

Will you obey my ancestral customs?

-The answer, my lord, is yes in every way, salvo o deni nostro.

-Salvo o deni nostro.

"with the exception of our order."

Meaning that becket would uphold henry's ancestral customs

Only when they didn't contradict canon law, church law.

This was an escalation.

It's defiance of the king right in public.

-There's poison lurking in that sophist invention of a phrase!

When we meet next, you will agree outright

And expressly to my ancestral customs!

-Just like theobald,

Becket had to walk that political tightrope.

And more than once he was forced to contradict himself

To hedge his bets, and this angered many of his bishops.

Finally, the pope instructed becket

To just accept henry's demands.

But henry wanted to make a public show of it.

-My lord, I freely consent to all of your demands.

And I declare that I will keep all the customs of the realm

In all good faith.

-Now I ask the same of each one of you down the line,

My lord, the bishop of winchester, step forward please.

-I consent.

♪♪

[ knock on door ]

-Enter. [ door opens ]

-The king took everything to a new level.

He put it all in writing.

Henry added provisions that they had never discussed.

One, he put the power of prosecuting crimes committed

By the clergy into the hands of the royal courts,

The king's court.

Two, he took the threat of excommunication off the table.

And three, and worst of all,

He stripped becket of his property

And he charged him with fraud and embezzlement

During his tenure as lord chancellor.

Like theobald, becket went into exile in France,

But a much lengthier exile.

He left all the worldly corruption

And backstabbing behind.

He lived in a monastery,

Where his existence became more and more ascetic,

And his faith in god grew.

Henry and becket met twice during his exile of six years.

Both times, henry needed something from becket,

And becket wanted to pave the way for his return to England,

And both times it ended in a stalemate.

-It's good to see you, thomas.

-Your majesty. -Are you ready to come home?

-I am, my lord.

I want to be back with my people.

-Well, you can.

You must understand, it's easy.

It's entirely up to you.

-It's also up to you.

-Thomas, why is it you won't just do what I want?

-I cannot, my lord. I must not.

I have an obligation to protect holy mother church,

For she is the dwelling place of god.

-Mother church is the dwelling place of your power,

And you're using it against me.

-All the power god grants us,

We use for the good of the realm, your majesty.

-After six years in exile, with the king's permission,

Becket finally returned to canterbury.

-God almighty, I offer my thanks and undying devotion

For allowing my safe return to my beloved country...

...And my beloved church,

With whose care you have entrusted me.

♪♪

-Becket, you've returned. -God be praised.

-Thank you. -Praise god!

-He was welcomed as a hero by his monks

And by the local citizens

Because no matter how inconsistent his behavior,

He had stood up for the church against a power-hungry king.

And then, the power struggle started up again.

-A man who has eaten my bread, who came to my court, poor,

A lowborn clerk, and I -- I have raised him high.

And now he draws up his heel to kick me in the teeth.

He has shamed my kin. He has shamed my realm!

And the grief goes to my heart!

And none of you have avenged me!

-They were knights on the fringes of henry's court,

And they were out to prove themselves to the king.

[ door opens ]

-Where is the archbishop? -Here I am.

-Go to the cloisters. -I'm not running.

May god's will be done.

-The king has tried to keep the peace.

You have excommunicated his bishops,

And now you're trying to take the crown away from his son.

-Lies. I tried to exalt his crown, not take it.

-God's wounds, how long must we bear this?

-And in the lord's battle I will fight hand to hand.

-Come, answer before the king. -I will do no such thing.

-I warn you, you're no longer under his protection.

-I am under god's protection.

-Come out of this church.

-If you're going to kill me, you're going to do it here.

-Come out of the church!

-You have no business to touch me.

You pimp!

[ both grunt ]

-Hit him! Hit him!

-Do it here!

Gah! Aah!

[ blood spilling ]

♪♪

[ groaning ]

[ coughs ]

♪♪

I think I'm ready for death.

-[ screams ]

-The knights were forced to murder him in the cathedral.

Becket strengthened the power of the church

By forcing henry's men to violate its sanctity.

It was said that becket's blood had miraculous properties.

His relics were carefully guarded,

And he was buried quickly in a stone crypt

To prevent henry and his followers from seizing

And destroying the body.

Becket's shrine became one of the most famous holy sites

In europe, and within three years of his death,

He was canonized by pope alexander.

Legions of pilgrims from all over europe

Made their way to canterbury.

[ coins clinking heavily ]

Henry recognized the importance of joining the cult

Of the martyred saint.

So he allowed himself to receive a public,

Though mostly symbolic, flogging at the hands of becket's monks.

In the struggle for power between the king

And his archbishop,

Becket had the last word.

But the war between church and state went on for centuries.

350 years after becket's death, henry viii,

Who was bent on destroying the catholic church in England

So that he could divorce his wife and remarry, got revenge.

The name and likeness of thomas becket

Was removed throughout England from every missal

And every prayer book.

But of course he is still remembered

And his saint's day is still celebrated.

Becket lived in a time

When it would have been virtually impossible

At the highest levels of the church

To not be caught up in politics and games of power.

So what does this sainthood mean?

Could be as simple as this --

That he was able to fully express his faith

And to serve god only with his own death.

In the last split second of his life,

Maybe he could finally see beyond all of his achievements

And his possessions,

And beyond all the endless struggles for power

Between kings and priests,

And look right into the heart of the mystery.

♪♪

♪♪

The big question for me, of course,

Always is becket is always presented as a man of faith,

Right?

Being in such a secular situation,

Was he an opportunist at times?

Ultimately, was he a true man of god?

How does one balance these two separate possibilities,

So to speak, the secular and of course, the faith?

-But it's not just secular. It's political.

It's about -- the whole episode really is about power

And about that crush between the church and the crown.

-I think god uses, in a sense,

Becket's ambition for god's own purposes.

At the end, he becomes ambitious for the church.

My sense is that he has a conversion, you know.

The weight of the office of being archbishop changes him,

And he realizes who his allegiance is to.

And if he was ambitious to begin with,

God kind of channeled that into ambition and desire

To help the church in the end.

My sense is also that,

You know, we have an expression called the grace of office,

Which is that when you're ordained

Or when you take on a certain ministry,

God gives you this certain grace.

And my sense was that he got this grace to understand

That this was his role, right?

That he was no longer going to be the king's pawn,

So to speak,

But that he had to really focus on the needs of the church.

And that makes sense.

To me, that makes sense.

You're ordained, you get a certain grace,

And that enables you to discern in a way

That you might not have discerned beforehand.

-But why in this episode do I have such a knee-jerk reaction?

Every time they say "holy mother church,"

I hear like bank of america. -I think it's intentional, mary,

Because that's what we had to face.

I mean, it is intentional in that the power structure was,

You know, henry,

And the church was part of that major facet

Of the power structure.

So it made sense to try to control it.

For the king. -I would say two things.

The church was more political back then, right?

But it also still is political.

It was a political force, you know,

In terms of temporal power,

But the idea that it's a political power now means it's,

You know, it's a human organization.

And I think for me, the deeper question is,

Can the holy spirit still work through an organization

That is political, you know,

Like the church was much more back then

And still is to a certain degree?

-Well, that's I guess what I want to ask about.

Why was it so much more political then?

-Well, I think the question would be,

Why is it less political now?

And the idea is that it gave up a lot of the political power,

Gave up a lot of the land, right, in a sense.

And it consciously became,

Tried to become less political, you know,

Whereas today you have -- -wait a minute.

You say gave up all the land, but look at all the cathedrals

In all these cities, and let's face it,

Were the great real-estate holder of --

One of the great real-estate holders of the planet.

-But in terms of like actual politics, direct,

In a sense influence into politics,

Like saying "you should vote for this person,"

Is something that the church tries to stay out of,

Which it did not, you know, way back when.

-Yeah, yeah. -They advocated for one king

Or one queen, et cetera.

-Well, also tied up that oftentimes,

The local rulers would have a lot

Of say of who the bishops were.

-So at that time, the king ruled by divine right,

So there was a religious aspect to the monarchy,

And there was only one church at that time.

This is prior to the reformation,

So it was the catholic church and the crown.

They were intertwined in god knows how many ways.

And to me, the thrust of becket's story

And of this episode is that it's understood

That there's going to be a certain amount of

Back-and-forth between church and crown.

But what people rise up against, beginning with becket himself,

Is when the crown makes the church its plaything

And behaves willy-nilly in the way that we see in the story.

That's when becket said, "I'm going to draw a line here."

-Yeah, it was very kind of difficult to disentangle,

You know, where the authority of the church was

And where the authority of the crown was.

-But the thing about that is that the divine right of kings

Means that as a man you have a right.

It's like saying you're the emperor.

"I am god because god speaks through me."

So who is the pope, then? Well, in other words,

I have all the power because I have divine right.

-Yeah, so divine right of kings means that the king is,

In a sense, god's chosen one in that particular land.

But don't put yourself up there with god.

That's where the line is being drawn by becket.

-That's the fight. That's the fight.

But why not?

If you have that power as king, why not?

You know, who are you to tell me?

And this extraordinary moment where he's trying the man

In ecclesiastical courts who was a priest,

Who killed the father of the woman that he rapes.

-Yes. -And you're telling me

That that's going to be ecclesiastical

And we can't take care of that in the king's court?

What I -- I mean, I could go further with it,

In that what I say and what I believe

And what I think is a divine right.

In other words, god is guiding me through this.

Granted, I'm benefiting from it, but god is guiding me.

Who are you to tell me?

-Even the unlettered peasant can sense the wrongness of that.

-That's right. -And that's why there was

Such a popular support for becket after he died.

-That's right. That's right. -Yeah.

Sure, you're the king, you've got divine right,

But make no mistake -- nobody's above the law

Or nobody's on the level with god.

It's probably the way they would have put it.

-Otherwise, it literally is, you know, feudalism.

Slavery, basically. -Well, it's always there.

There's always tension between religion

And the dominant powers in society.

And sometimes they're fighting and sometimes they're colluding.

And this is this is the way of the world.

-Well, god told me to.

God told me because he speaks through me

And I, you know, I'm looking out for you.

-To go to war, to do this, do that.

-Yeah, go to war, defend me, you defend yourselves,

We defend our culture, we defend who we are

Because god has given me this grace and this power.

-As well as the kind of conflict

Between church and state, the jesuits who were killed in 1989,

In el salvador, were standing on the side of the poor,

And the government didn't like that.

Right? And so it's always -- I think in the story of becket,

You see kind of an early sign of the church

Asserting its own authority, you know, over the state.

Right? Which is something

That plays out for the next couple of centuries.

-Yes, yes. My question ultimately,

But I think I know the answer is

Because he stayed in that cathedral,

He hugged that pillar so that he could be killed in the church

To make that point.

One could argue, well, this is his own pride that develops.

-Right. -But to the point

Where he lets himself be killed by these guys in the cathedral?

I don't think so.

I think it's interesting,

Between pride and knowing he's going to be killed

And he stays there.

-The fact that after he died,

This cult of his blood kind of sprang up among the people

And such that the beginning of "canterbury tales"

Is about making a holy pilgrimage to canterbury.

There were miracles taking place

That people were healed from the blood

And that it was circulating.

-What amazes me is that for 800 years,

People have been going on pilgrimage to that place,

Hoping to be changed somehow themselves.

-Long before I converted,

My son dragged me to church "to see if god's there,"

Which I would have never gone if he hadn't dragged me.

But I didn't believe in anything.

I had no religious background.

My parents were atheist. I never dabbled in it.

I didn't have a moment with it.

But the faith of the people...

-Sure. -...I found very moving.

So whether you're catholic or not,

Or whether you believe in that becket was holy or not,

As paul said,

That for 800 years people have been going to this place.

And you think -- I think of all the hope and longing

And fear that people bring to those places,

And is that not holy?

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

Can't find what you're looking for?
Get subtitles in any language from opensubtitles.com, and translate them here.