All language subtitles for Martin.Scorsese.Presents.The.Saints.S02E03.1080p.WEBRip.x264-BAE_track3_[eng]

[ choir vocalizing ]

♪♪

-These are stories
of the saints.

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

[ singing in latin ]

Thomas becket
was consecrated as archbishop

Of canterbury in 1162.

This was a position second
only in power to the king.

♪♪

But in the ceremony,
there was a pivotal moment

When becket was called upon

To select a random passage
from the gospels.

Jesus cursing
the fruitless fig tree.

-The gospel according
to saint matthew 21:19,

"never shall fruit be born
of thee throughout eternity.

And it was forthwith cast
into the fire."

[ spectators murmuring ]

-It was a troubling omen.

♪♪

The story of thomas becket

Is the story of the pitched
battle between church and state

In England,

Of which institution would win
ultimate power over the other.

♪♪

-Most merciful god, forgive me
for what I'm about to do.

-The battle over
the divine right of kings

Lasted hundreds of years

And left a long line of martyrs
in its wake.

Becket was the most famous.

So famous that henry viii tried
to strike his memory

From every record in existence.

Becket was the son
of fairly prosperous,

Devoutly catholic norman
immigrants

Who lived in
the cheapside section of london.

He was a man of great ambition,

Still searching
for an opportunity.

-God.

Come, holy spirit,

And bring down from heaven
a ray of thy light.

Without thy influence,
there is nothing in man

Which is not weakness and guilt.

Oh, cleanse that
which is sordid,

Bend that which is stubborn.

Guide that which is wandering.

-At this moment,
the monarchy was in turmoil.

When king henry I died,

His daughter matilda
staked her claim,

But the norman barons refused
to accept a woman on the throne,

And they backed
her cousin stephen,

Which led to a brutal civil war.

And in the midst
of all this strife,

Becket had an interview
with theobald,

The archbishop of canterbury.

-Have the carriers arrived?

-They're coming, my lord.

-I want to finish the letter
to chichester.

-Of course.

-That matters within your
jurisdiction should come to us.

-Now, theobald was caught
in the middle of the conflict

Because he'd sided with matilda.

-I'm told you're eager to learn
and quick to speak your mind.

-I cannot say, my lord.
That's for others to decide.

-I have no time for modesty,

But much need of able minds
and eloquent tongues.

-I understand you, my lord.

-Even a lowborn man
such as yourself,

If he proves useful,

Can improve his station
through our holy mother church.

-The carriers, my lord.

-Tomorrow we move
to my surrey estates.

These men are for my coffers,

Which go
wherever I go in time of war.

-Nothing could be left to
chance, I understand.

-We shall see.

-Theobald was wealthy.

He had palaces in canterbury
and rochester and southwood.

Homes in sussex,
middlesex and surrey.

He collected ecclesiastical fees
and tithes to the church,

As well as feudal dues from all
the territories he controlled.

To rise in the church
was to have real power,

But it was a constant struggle
to hold on to that power,

To use it not
in the interest of the crown,

But in the interest of promoting
the teachings of jesus

In everyday life.

-If I had wanted the order
of service to be rearranged,

I would have called for it!

-The original order
of the service

Is sanctified by ancient custom.

-I need no reminder
from lowborn ignorant men!

-The archbishop is well aware of
the venerable nature

Of practice customs,

Which is why his very...Slight
alteration in the order

Of blessings
is founded in church precedent.

-Where can this be found?

-In the fourth decretum
of damasus.

-Precisely.

♪♪

Ah!

Well-played, thomas.

-Thank you, my lord.

-I should have castled my king.

Another game?

-If you wish.

-Theobald gave some of
the money he was making

From surrounding churches
to becket.

And so becket became rich.

Now, to modernize,
it might look like corruption,

But within the world of the
church in 12th century europe,

It was more of a necessity.

Theobald educated him
with a tutor.

He sent him to bologna
and other universities

To study canon and roman law.

Maintaining
the political balance

Between the church and the king.

Between defiance and compromise.

This was a constant exercise for
theobald while stephen was king.

Sometimes he gave stephen
what he wanted.

Sometimes he stood firm,

But he always walked
a political tightrope.

In fact, theobald
went into exile more than once

And becket made sure
that he came back safely.

-Once you reach ostend, an
oarsman will take you to dover.

John will have a man there who
will supply you with a horse.

Then you'll be escorted
to canterbury and home.

-I'll be recognized.
-There will be clothing for you.

You'll have to arrive at night.

-Like a thief.
-It's the safest way.

And it's hardly even more
than three months this time.

-Three months? Three years?

It's a terrible thing
to have to flee your own country

With mother church
in your hands.

I pray it may never happen
to you.

Come on.

-Eventually, matilda's son,
henry, the duke of normandy,

Arrived in England with knights
and a mercenary army

To take up his mother's
war for the throne

And to secure his own place as
the rightful heir to the throne.

After nearly two decades
of destructive war,

Neither side came out
victorious.

Theobald and becket worked both
parties to negotiate a truce,

Careful to avoid accusations
of treason.

They urged king stephen to make
peace with henry and matilda.

♪♪

And as the brokers
of this peace,

They took the opportunity
to cement the power

Of the church as well.

♪♪

Henry was really impressed
by becket,

And he understood that
he had played a decisive part

In the negotiations.

Theobald rewarded becket
for his part in the negotiations

By elevating him to the post
of archdeacon of canterbury.

But within 10 months, stephen
died from a sudden illness

And henry was crowned king.

♪♪

-Thomas.

-My lord.

-Walk with me, thomas.

How are you enjoying your work?

-Oh, well, sir, I very much
like working for the archbishop.

He is a dedicated man of god.

-Mm. I hear you're
quite the chess player.

-I enjoy the game.

-A game of strategy.
-Entirely.

-And cunning.
-Indeed.

-I'm going to give you a
larger board to play on, thomas.

I like a man of strategy
and cunning.

I like him even better
in my court.

♪♪

Ah, what a beautiful day.

-Some believe
that there was a real friendship

Between becket and henry.

Others differ.

Now, the truth is
probably somewhere in

Between the kind of friendship
you find in the business world.

You know,
mutual warmth, affection,

And then it can just disappear
at the drop of a hat.

Henry made becket
his lord chancellor.

This was the second
most powerful position

In the government.

But at the same time,

Becket kept his high office
in the church

As archdeacon of canterbury.

-It's as I expected.

I laid the groundwork for this
very carefully, you know.

-I understand you.

-That's the point.
You, of all people,

Understand that the church is
god's instrument on earth.

That it serves as a vital check

On the greed and corruption
of the ground.

That its independence and power
must be preserved at any cost.

And to do so,

The church needs
trustworthy eyes and ears

At the king's court.

-Yes. Of course.

-If you prove yourself worthy,

This will be good for us
and for holy mother church.

A steadying influence.

Thomas, I want you
to remember something.

Never trust the words
of princes or kings.

Never.

♪♪

-Becket lived like a king.

I mean, that's what was expected
of a member of the king's court,

Especially the lord chancellor,
most of all.

He had a fleet of ships
for channel crossings,

A company of knights, an army
of servants, a private zoo.

Finest foods and wines,
kitchen staff.

In many ways, the
lowborn norman immigrant lived

A more lavish lifestyle
than henry.

So what did becket think?

That he could actually answer to
both theobald and henry

At the same time?

When henry invaded toulouse,

It was becket's job as lord
chancellor to finance the war.

He levied new taxes, and
the burden fell on the church,

On the bishops and the abbots,
including archbishop theobald.

And becket,
as henry's enforcer,

Just bled his old mentor dry.

Theobald actually wrote
to becket

And pleaded with him

To drop the taxes
on the parishes in canterbury.

These were taxes from which
becket himself was profiting.

Becket never even answered him.

-[ coughs ]

-Theobald paved the way
for becket's appointment

As lord chancellor
because he wanted an inside man.

So becket's reversal
is a terrible betrayal.

-You have often been called,

And you ought to have answered
a single summons to my side now

That I am old and ill.

Indeed it is to be feared that
god may punish your tardiness

If you shut your ears
to the call of obedience,

Forgetting the benefits
you have received,

And despising me,

Whom you should have
carried on your shoulders

In my final sickness.

-What did becket feel
in his heart?

Was it shame?

Was he wanting to explain
himself to theobald?

Or did he now see himself
as henry's man?

We can't know.

But what we do know is that he
never saw theobald alive again.

And the death of theobald

Created a very convenient
opportunity, a vacuum of power

That henry had to fill
very quickly.

-Just look at me, my lord.

How religious is the man

That you want to point to
that holy office?

-You're my man,

And I want my man
to be archbishop of canterbury.

-Your majesty,

Are you truly asking me to
choose between the archbishopric

And the chancellorship?

-Why, the opposite.
Think of it, thomas.

The power of the crown
and the power of the church.

One and the same.

Years of opposition
and bickering

Abolished with a few drops
of holy oil upon your forehead.

Hmm?

-My lord,

I must reflect
in solitude and prayer

On this decision,
alone with my god.

-It's fine.

And I'll think
of the earliest possible date

For your investiture.

Think of it, thomas.

Please understand...

It's not a request.

-I, thomas becket,

Chosen archbishop
of the cathedral of canterbury

And the sea of canterbury,

Do profess and promise
all due respect and obedience

To our holy father,
pope alexander,

And all of his successors,
so help me god.

Through jesus christ.

Lord, I confess my weakness
for the things of this world.

The things, so many things.

And I ask for your guidance.

What must I do, lord?

I know that my responsibility is
to holy mother church,

To her protection.

So what must I do?

I pray that you allow
me to walk in your way.

[ singing in latin ]

♪♪

To follow your example.

[ singing continues ]

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

♪♪

-The new role of archbishop
of canterbury

Seemed to increase becket's
faith.

And very quickly,

His relationship with the king
changed, dramatically.

[ knock on door ]

-Come in.
[ door opens ]

-Your majesty,

We've just received an
urgent message from canterbury.

-So deliver it in a low tone.

-We've been told that
the new archbishop of canterbury

Has just resigned
as his majesty's chancellor.

-What news are you bringing me
of this lowborn wretch?

Doesn't have the heart
to tell me.

Eye to eye!
[ screams ]

I'll have him groveling on
his knees and kissing my feet!

-Theobald had thought
that placing becket

As lord chancellor
would give him an opportunity

To have an inside man
to work on the king,

And the king, vice versa.

He thought having becket
as his lord chancellor

Would give him a way
to influence the church.

They were both wrong.

It started four months

After becket was consecrated
as archbishop,

A constant tug of war.

-It is not right
that the will of the monarchy

Should interfere
in ecclesiastical matters,

Nor that the hands
of royal clerks

Should find themselves
in church coffers.

I hereby demand
that you return all lands,

Properties and incomes

You so unlawfully seized
from the church.

-You will redirect the receipt
of all funds collected

To the office of the chancellor,

Your former position,

Which I myself
now occupy as a result

Of your ill-considered decision
to resign the post.

-Little by little, henry
stripped becket of all his lands

And the fees
he collected from them.

This threatened thomas,
and he responded

By excommunicating one
of henry's noblemen.

-By the authority vested in me
by almighty god,

I hereby issue this decree
of excommunication

Against william of eynsford

For grave offenses committed
against the laws and doctrines

Of our holy mother church,

And for persistently refusing
to repent and amend his ways,

Despite repeated admonitions
and warnings.

He is hereby cut off
from the body of the faithful,

Cut off from the sanctity
of the church,

And deprived of all spiritual
privileges and benefits thereof.

-Excommunication.
To be excommunicated

Meant to be cast out
of the church.

You became an exile
in your own world.

That ruthlessness
becket displayed when he was

Lord chancellor
now was turned on the king.

Excommunication was becket's
most powerful weapon,

And he could even use it
against henry,

Stripping him of his right
to rule.

-He did what?

He did what?!

Am I not a patient man?!

Have I not given him grace?!

Now I have no more love for him!

-At the time, if a member of
the clergy committed any crime

From theft to murder,

He was tried and punished
by the ecclesiastical court,

The church court, and kept
protected from the king's court,

The king's justice.

When a priest committed
murder and rape,

The power struggle
between thomas and henry

Escalated even more.

-A priest who murders
a man in his own home

So that he could freely ravage
that man's daughter

In a bed of hay,

And he is entitled to protection
from the royal courts.

-He was punished, of course.

-Beheaded and deboweled
is what he deserves.

-The church does not mete
out corporal punishment,

As you know, lest in the --

-Don't you quote canon law
to me!

You think nothing
of excommunicating my nobles,

But your murderous priest is
exempt from the highest law

Of the land, the crown?

-Again, sire, he was treated
with the highest severity

That canon law dictates.

-God's eyes, I'll have
that man hanging from my gallows

With a fortnight.

-Not as long
as the law of the church stands

And my bishops are behind me.

-My bishops!

-These are men ordained by god,

And they will be judged by god

Alone through the instrument
of the church.

-Where is this in canon law?

-No greater authority
than canon law.

These are the words
of saint jerome.

A mere man should not exact
twofold vengeance

For one single fault
when god, judge of all men,

As it is written, judges no one
twice for the same offense.

-By god's eyes,

You mete out a slap
on the wrist and god says

We cannot punish him again?

-It is our desire
to heed your will in all things,

My good lord, worshipfully,

If it does not go against that
which is right.

If it obstructs the will of god

And the laws and dignity
of our holy church,

We won't dare give
our assent to it.

-On this day,
I put the question to you all,

And directly to you, archbishop.

And the question is
a simple one.

Will you obey
my ancestral customs?

-The answer, my lord, is yes in
every way, salvo o deni nostro.

-Salvo o deni nostro.

"with the exception of
our order."

Meaning that becket would
uphold henry's ancestral customs

Only when they didn't contradict
canon law, church law.

This was an escalation.

It's defiance of the king
right in public.

-There's poison lurking in that
sophist invention of a phrase!

When we meet next,
you will agree outright

And expressly to
my ancestral customs!

-Just like theobald,

Becket had to walk
that political tightrope.

And more than once he
was forced to contradict himself

To hedge his bets, and this
angered many of his bishops.

Finally, the pope
instructed becket

To just accept henry's demands.

But henry wanted to make
a public show of it.

-My lord, I freely consent
to all of your demands.

And I declare that I will keep
all the customs of the realm

In all good faith.

-Now I ask the same of
each one of you down the line,

My lord, the bishop of
winchester, step forward please.

-I consent.

♪♪

[ knock on door ]

-Enter.
[ door opens ]

-The king took everything
to a new level.

He put it all in writing.

Henry added provisions
that they had never discussed.

One, he put the power
of prosecuting crimes committed

By the clergy into
the hands of the royal courts,

The king's court.

Two, he took the threat of
excommunication off the table.

And three, and worst of all,

He stripped becket of
his property

And he charged him
with fraud and embezzlement

During his tenure
as lord chancellor.

Like theobald, becket
went into exile in France,

But a much lengthier exile.

He left all
the worldly corruption

And backstabbing behind.

He lived in a monastery,

Where his existence became more
and more ascetic,

And his faith in god grew.

Henry and becket met twice
during his exile of six years.

Both times, henry needed
something from becket,

And becket wanted to pave the
way for his return to England,

And both times it ended
in a stalemate.

-It's good to see you, thomas.

-Your majesty.
-Are you ready to come home?

-I am, my lord.

I want to be back
with my people.

-Well, you can.

You must understand, it's easy.

It's entirely up to you.

-It's also up to you.

-Thomas, why is it you
won't just do what I want?

-I cannot, my lord. I must not.

I have an obligation
to protect holy mother church,

For she is the dwelling place
of god.

-Mother church is the
dwelling place of your power,

And you're using it against me.

-All the power god grants us,

We use for the good
of the realm, your majesty.

-After six years in exile,
with the king's permission,

Becket finally returned
to canterbury.

-God almighty, I offer my thanks
and undying devotion

For allowing my safe return
to my beloved country...

...And my beloved church,

With whose care
you have entrusted me.

♪♪

-Becket, you've returned.
-God be praised.

-Thank you.
-Praise god!

-He was welcomed as a hero
by his monks

And by the local citizens

Because no matter
how inconsistent his behavior,

He had stood up for the church
against a power-hungry king.

And then, the power struggle
started up again.

-A man who has eaten my bread,
who came to my court, poor,

A lowborn clerk, and I --
I have raised him high.

And now he draws up his heel
to kick me in the teeth.

He has shamed my kin.
He has shamed my realm!

And the grief goes to my heart!

And none of you have avenged me!

-They were knights
on the fringes of henry's court,

And they were out
to prove themselves to the king.

[ door opens ]

-Where is the archbishop?
-Here I am.

-Go to the cloisters.
-I'm not running.

May god's will be done.

-The king has tried
to keep the peace.

You have excommunicated
his bishops,

And now you're trying to take
the crown away from his son.

-Lies. I tried
to exalt his crown, not take it.

-God's wounds,
how long must we bear this?

-And in the lord's battle
I will fight hand to hand.

-Come, answer before the king.
-I will do no such thing.

-I warn you, you're
no longer under his protection.

-I am under god's protection.

-Come out of this church.

-If you're going to kill me,
you're going to do it here.

-Come out of the church!

-You have no business
to touch me.

You pimp!

[ both grunt ]

-Hit him! Hit him!

-Do it here!

Gah! Aah!

[ blood spilling ]

♪♪

[ groaning ]

[ coughs ]

♪♪

I think I'm ready for death.

-[ screams ]

-The knights were forced
to murder him in the cathedral.

Becket strengthened
the power of the church

By forcing henry's men
to violate its sanctity.

It was said that becket's
blood had miraculous properties.

His relics were
carefully guarded,

And he was buried quickly
in a stone crypt

To prevent henry
and his followers from seizing

And destroying the body.

Becket's shrine became one
of the most famous holy sites

In europe, and
within three years of his death,

He was canonized
by pope alexander.

Legions of pilgrims
from all over europe

Made their way to canterbury.

[ coins clinking heavily ]

Henry recognized the importance
of joining the cult

Of the martyred saint.

So he allowed himself
to receive a public,

Though mostly symbolic, flogging
at the hands of becket's monks.

In the struggle for power
between the king

And his archbishop,

Becket had the last word.

But the war between church
and state went on for centuries.

350 years after becket's death,
henry viii,

Who was bent on destroying
the catholic church in England

So that he could divorce his
wife and remarry, got revenge.

The name and likeness
of thomas becket

Was removed throughout England
from every missal

And every prayer book.

But of course
he is still remembered

And his saint's day
is still celebrated.

Becket lived in a time

When it would have been
virtually impossible

At the highest levels
of the church

To not be caught up
in politics and games of power.

So what does
this sainthood mean?

Could be as simple as this --

That he was able to
fully express his faith

And to serve god only
with his own death.

In the last split second
of his life,

Maybe he could finally see
beyond all of his achievements

And his possessions,

And beyond all
the endless struggles for power

Between kings and priests,

And look right into
the heart of the mystery.

♪♪

♪♪

The big question for me,
of course,

Always is becket is always
presented as a man of faith,

Right?

Being in such
a secular situation,

Was he an opportunist at times?

Ultimately, was he
a true man of god?

How does one balance these
two separate possibilities,

So to speak, the secular
and of course, the faith?

-But it's not just secular.
It's political.

It's about -- the whole
episode really is about power

And about that crush between
the church and the crown.

-I think god uses, in a sense,

Becket's ambition for god's
own purposes.

At the end, he becomes
ambitious for the church.

My sense is that he has
a conversion, you know.

The weight of the office
of being archbishop changes him,

And he realizes who
his allegiance is to.

And if he was ambitious
to begin with,

God kind of channeled that
into ambition and desire

To help the church in the end.

My sense is also that,

You know, we have an expression
called the grace of office,

Which is that when
you're ordained

Or when you take
on a certain ministry,

God gives you
this certain grace.

And my sense was that
he got this grace to understand

That this was his role, right?

That he was no longer
going to be the king's pawn,

So to speak,

But that he had to really focus
on the needs of the church.

And that makes sense.

To me, that makes sense.

You're ordained,
you get a certain grace,

And that enables you
to discern in a way

That you might
not have discerned beforehand.

-But why in this episode do I
have such a knee-jerk reaction?

Every time they say
"holy mother church,"

I hear like bank of america.
-I think it's intentional, mary,

Because that's what
we had to face.

I mean, it is intentional
in that the power structure was,

You know, henry,

And the church was part
of that major facet

Of the power structure.

So it made sense to try
to control it.

For the king.
-I would say two things.

The church was
more political back then, right?

But it also still is political.

It was a political force,
you know,

In terms of temporal power,

But the idea that it's a
political power now means it's,

You know,
it's a human organization.

And I think for me,
the deeper question is,

Can the holy spirit still work
through an organization

That is political, you know,

Like the church was
much more back then

And still is to
a certain degree?

-Well, that's I guess what
I want to ask about.

Why was it so much
more political then?

-Well, I think
the question would be,

Why is it less political now?

And the idea is that it gave up
a lot of the political power,

Gave up a lot of the land,
right, in a sense.

And it consciously became,

Tried to become less political,
you know,

Whereas today you have --
-wait a minute.

You say gave up all the land,
but look at all the cathedrals

In all these cities,
and let's face it,

Were the great real-estate
holder of --

One of the great real-estate
holders of the planet.

-But in terms of like
actual politics, direct,

In a sense influence
into politics,

Like saying "you should vote
for this person,"

Is something that
the church tries to stay out of,

Which it did not,
you know, way back when.

-Yeah, yeah.
-They advocated for one king

Or one queen, et cetera.

-Well, also tied up
that oftentimes,

The local rulers would have
a lot

Of say of who the bishops were.

-So at that time,
the king ruled by divine right,

So there was a religious aspect
to the monarchy,

And there was only one church
at that time.

This is prior
to the reformation,

So it was the catholic church
and the crown.

They were intertwined
in god knows how many ways.

And to me,
the thrust of becket's story

And of this episode
is that it's understood

That there's going to be
a certain amount of

Back-and-forth
between church and crown.

But what people rise up against,
beginning with becket himself,

Is when the crown makes
the church its plaything

And behaves willy-nilly in the
way that we see in the story.

That's when becket said,
"I'm going to draw a line here."

-Yeah, it was very kind
of difficult to disentangle,

You know, where
the authority of the church was

And where the authority
of the crown was.

-But the thing about that is
that the divine right of kings

Means that as a man
you have a right.

It's like saying you're
the emperor.

"I am god
because god speaks through me."

So who is the pope, then?
Well, in other words,

I have all the power
because I have divine right.

-Yeah, so divine right
of kings means that the king is,

In a sense, god's chosen one
in that particular land.

But don't put yourself
up there with god.

That's where the line
is being drawn by becket.

-That's the fight.
That's the fight.

But why not?

If you have that power as king,
why not?

You know,
who are you to tell me?

And this extraordinary moment
where he's trying the man

In ecclesiastical courts
who was a priest,

Who killed the father
of the woman that he rapes.

-Yes.
-And you're telling me

That that's going to be
ecclesiastical

And we can't take care of that
in the king's court?

What I -- I mean,
I could go further with it,

In that what I say
and what I believe

And what I think is
a divine right.

In other words,
god is guiding me through this.

Granted, I'm benefiting from it,
but god is guiding me.

Who are you to tell me?

-Even the unlettered peasant
can sense the wrongness of that.

-That's right.
-And that's why there was

Such a popular support
for becket after he died.

-That's right. That's right.
-Yeah.

Sure, you're the king,
you've got divine right,

But make no mistake --
nobody's above the law

Or nobody's on the level
with god.

It's probably the way
they would have put it.

-Otherwise, it literally is,
you know, feudalism.

Slavery, basically.
-Well, it's always there.

There's always tension
between religion

And the dominant powers
in society.

And sometimes they're fighting
and sometimes they're colluding.

And this is this is the way
of the world.

-Well, god told me to.

God told me
because he speaks through me

And I, you know,
I'm looking out for you.

-To go to war, to do this,
do that.

-Yeah, go to war, defend me,
you defend yourselves,

We defend our culture,
we defend who we are

Because god has given
me this grace and this power.

-As well as the kind of conflict

Between church and state, the
jesuits who were killed in 1989,

In el salvador, were standing
on the side of the poor,

And the government
didn't like that.

Right? And so it's always --
I think in the story of becket,

You see kind of an early sign
of the church

Asserting its own authority,
you know, over the state.

Right? Which is something

That plays out for
the next couple of centuries.

-Yes, yes.
My question ultimately,

But I think I know the answer is

Because he stayed
in that cathedral,

He hugged that pillar so that
he could be killed in the church

To make that point.

One could argue, well, this is
his own pride that develops.

-Right.
-But to the point

Where he lets himself be killed
by these guys in the cathedral?

I don't think so.

I think it's interesting,

Between pride and knowing
he's going to be killed

And he stays there.

-The fact that after he died,

This cult of his blood kind of
sprang up among the people

And such that the beginning
of "canterbury tales"

Is about making
a holy pilgrimage to canterbury.

There were miracles taking place

That people were healed
from the blood

And that it was circulating.

-What amazes me
is that for 800 years,

People have been going
on pilgrimage to that place,

Hoping to be changed
somehow themselves.

-Long before I converted,

My son dragged me to church
"to see if god's there,"

Which I would have never gone
if he hadn't dragged me.

But I didn't believe
in anything.

I had no religious background.

My parents were atheist.
I never dabbled in it.

I didn't have a moment with it.

But the faith of the people...

-Sure.
-...I found very moving.

So whether you're catholic
or not,

Or whether you believe in
that becket was holy or not,

As paul said,

That for 800 years people
have been going to this place.

And you think -- I think
of all the hope and longing

And fear that people bring
to those places,

And is that not holy?

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