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Louis, when you die,

you're gonna have
to stand before God.

What are you gonna tell him?
Nothing.

He's gonna drop-kick
your ass to hell.

Louis, Louis, Louis, Louis,
Louis, Louis's heart.

Louis, Louis.

Your vibe is very odd.

- God hates America!

America is dead!

- One of the most notorious
hate groups in America,

the Westboro Baptist Church,
is a Christian ministry that,

for years, has preached a
virulently anti-gay message

at funerals
and high-profile events.

You angered the Lord your God,

and now he's cursed your family.

There's no consolation there.

- In 2006, and again in 2010,

I visited them in Topeka,
Kansas,

discovering a world
of indoctrination,

masterminded by church founder
Fred Phelps,

known by family members
as "Gramps".

- It's almost 18 months
now,

and the siege has got people
eating their babies...

and their small children,
and each other!

You're gonna eat your babies!

- But Fred Phelps's death in
2014 had shaken up the church,

and a long-devoted member
had defected and gone public.

You know,
we claimed to love people.

This was the biggest
contradiction of all, I think.

And I was totally blind to it.

- Now, embarrassing secrets
were said to be coming out.

So I was back with America's
most hated family.

Did you picket Gramps's funeral?

He went from dead to the ground

as fast as we could
possibly get him there.

In a place where no one
will be able to find him.

Now, how do you like
that awesomeness?

- In Kansas City,
Missouri,

15 or so Westboro members
were outside the Sprint Center,

protesting college basketball.

- Who's this kid's mother?

Holy [bleep] shit!
You guys are pricks!

Get a life, get a [bleep] life!

Holy shit!

- The church views
pastimes like basketball

as false idols.

- When you place something
above Christ,

like this filthy piece of silk

that represents
a nation awash in sin,

you're an idolater.

- Pickets are
an opportunity for Westboro

to spread its hateful message,

and also to indoctrinate
its own membership.

For them,
the outrage they provoke

is a sign that they
are doing God's work.

If a guy likes another guy,
who the fuck cares?

Let 'em do them,
let 'em do them.

- Among those present
was the granddaughter

of church founder, Fred Phelps,

14-year-old
Bethany Hockenbarger.

Can I talk to you?
Tell me about your sign.

- This is actually my favourite
sign I request every time.

Because when Satan whispered
in Eve's ear to sin,

he made them realise
what they were doing wrong

and they disobeyed God,
and that was their sins.

And who are you talking to
in that sign?

Everyone is prone to sin,

and unless you have God's grace,

you aren't gonna go to heaven,
you're gonna go to hell.

Do you worry about going
to hell?

- All the time, yeah.
- Do you?

- Yes.
- What do you think it's like?

It's obviously fire,

and there's obviously
a lot of people

that are also gonna be there.

You're in pain
for eternity, basically?

- Yes.
- How's school going?

Good. I have a choir concert
coming up pretty soon, so...

- What are you singing
in the choir?

- A couple of Police songs,

a couple of Michael Jackson
songs.

- Wait, hang on...
- Yeah, that's what I said!

- Because you have a...

- There was also
a new family.

Chris Jakes
and four of his children

had joined four years earlier,
leaving behind a wife and mother

to start a new life
inside Westboro.

- What's your name?
- Daniel Jakes.

- Daniel Jakes.
- Yeah.

This is my brother Josh,
and this is my sister Julie.

- Tell me about your sign?

- You know, this is one
of our more famous ones,

particularly "God Hates Fags".

But I like this one
'cause it says,

"God Still Hates Fags".

God hasn't changed,
he's not going to.

You know, staying the same.

- How long have you been here?

- Four years,
three and a half years or so.

- So you would've been how old
when you came, like 10?

- No, I'm 17 now,
so I was 13, 12.

Were your parents divorced
when you came here?

No, they were not.

- And do you miss your mum
at all?

- Uh, I mean... not really.

And I know that sounds
a little weird,

and I don't have
a hatred for her.

I think the Lord has
really helped me with that,

because, you know,
my mom claims she loves me.

According to God's standards
she hates me,

- she doesn't love me at all.
- What do you mean? She...

She doesn't love me because she
doesn't tell me the truth.

- Which is?
- Which is that

if I don't obey God,
I'm gonna go to hell.

Sex!

- I was back spending time
at Westboro,

hoping to find out how the death
of its founder and leader,

Pastor Fred Phelps,
had affected the church.

Notoriously tight-knit,

most of the church members
come from a single family,

the Phelps, and live on
one block in Topeka, Kansas.

The chapel
is in the same building

where Pastor Phelps,
or "Gramps", once lived,

across the street
from The Rainbow House,

a pro-gay rights charity.

One of the few members who isn't
part of the Phelps family

is Steve Drain.

Where are we going?

- We're gonna go
to the video newsroom.

- Steve first came
as a documentary maker.

He was so impressed,
he decided to join up,

bringing his family with him.

- Would I be right in
thinking it was here

that I saw Gramps during
his video preaching?

- Do you remember 13 years ago?
- I do remember that.

- It was probably as new to you
as it was to me in those days.

- Hi, guys.
- How do you do?

- I'm Louis.
- Hi, Louis.

- From the BBC.
- Yes.

- You must be
Pastor Fred Phelps.

- Yes.
- Very pleased to meet you.

Glad to see you, Louis.

Pay attention,
pay close attention.

Billy Graham,
hell-bound false prophet.

Billy, you are headed straight
and irreversibly for hell.

You are a lying, money-grubbing
Arminian heretic.

At 88, Graham will soon die,
and split hell wide open.

And Westboro Baptist Church will
picket your funeral. Amen.

- After Pastor Phelps's death,

his place had been taken
by a counsel

of seven elders, all male,
of which Steve was one.

- Can you hear me OK?

I can hear you. OK.
Here we go.

Greetings. The word of God
is clear

on what makes a nation wicked
in his eyes.

Mr. President,

will you not ask the Lord
to strip you of your pride,

greed and vanity,
and repent of that folly,

and ask the Lord to cause
you to, humbly yet boldly,

speak his truth
to this whole round world

while you still have
this considerable platform?

We're commanded to love
our neighbours as ourselves.

Fear God and keep
his commandments. Amen.

Did that camera bounce much?

- No, but I had some audio blip.
- Really?

But I wanna check the mic
before we keep going.

- OK.
- 'Cause it cut out

a lot at the end.

So it's a reasonable...

Compared with the rhetoric,
the way it used to be.

You're more liable
to remind people

of the route to salvation.

You're either the quickest
study in the history of man,

or you already kinda came here
with what you thought this was.

I... It's based on
what I'm seeing, really.

And I don't mean it
as a criticism.

It feels like a softening
or a declination

from how maybe Gramps
would've spoken it.

I think that it has
more to do with...

growth and maturity
than anything else.

Donald Trump,

you're gonna split hell
wide open when you die,

and Westboro Baptist Church
will picket your funeral.

That's not even close.

- A good try.

- Though there are usually
one or two departures

from Westboro each year,
the numbers at the church

have remained the same,
hovering around 70.

Most of the new membership
comes from children

born into the group.

- Hello there.
- Hi.

How's it going?

Among those who'd had children
since my last visit

was Jael Phelps.

- Good to see you.
- Hi.

How you doing? Can we come in?

When I'd first met Jael,

we'd talked about
her marriage prospects.

- This our...
the computer study area.

It's not sinful
to get married, is it?

And if you wanted to do that
then how do you do that?

Well, first of all, I don't
think that's ever gonna happen.

- Why wouldn't that happen?
- Are you kidding me?

Are you kidding me?

Because I'm Jael Phelps,
and I serve God, that's why.

This used to be your room,
didn't it?

- I remember you showing me.
- Yeah.

So cute. Whose room is this?

- Silas's.

- I can tell it's Silas's room
'cause it has

so many baby-appropriate
things on the walls.

- Yeah!

- Yeah, he's being sarcastic,
darling.

- Will you change the walls,

or are you gonna
keep the walls like this?

Or have you just not
got round to it yet?

- No, no, no,
this is intentional.

Why?

- This is one of my
favourite rooms in the house.

I think it's a place
to teach the children,

and children
are concrete learners.

They're not, you know...

- Theoretical stuff...
- Abstract, yeah sure.

Yeah, abstract stuff's gonna
be over their heads, so...

- And in a way,
what I would agree with

is a tiny baby like Silas,
it'll be lost on him,

what this means.
So maybe that's good.

'Cause actually a baby
doesn't need to be thinking

- about hell the whole time.
- Right.

- But do you think
you have this up maybe

- for the older ones too?
- Yeah.

I think these are wonderful
works of God, they're amazing,

and they strike awe, you know,
some of these things.

And so, yeah...

- Well, that made
a lot more sense

than what your mum just said.

- Against the odds,
Jael had found someone

from an unlikely place.

- If you listen to
the millions of Brits,

it's just amazing how detached
from reality they really are.

The reality is Britain
is broken.

- Steven Holroyd from Bradford
had joined in 2011,

becoming another face

in Westboro's online ministry
of hate,

denouncing a culture
he viewed as decadent

and taking aim
at gay celebrities.

- What does that say
for a nation

when they exalt a sodomite
like Elton John

and call him "Sir",
how disgusting can you get?

God hates the UK.

- So, to get this
out of the way,

how does a young man
from Bradford

come to be a member of
the Westboro Baptist Church?

- He was shown
some things by God.

Right.

- And I'd seen
your documentary,

I'd also seen Jeremy Kyle's deal
with Shirl and Becca.

- And thought what?

Because most people
saw those appearances

and thought,
"Wow, those guys are crazy!"

- Right.
- But you didn't think that.

It was impressive
to see that they knew

what Bible verses
were being referenced.

I was impressed by that,
so I wanted to learn more.

- So then you had
your visit, and then,

at the end of that,
you thought what?

- Steve said,
"Why go back to Yorkshire?"

And I felt that was
a good question.

- Jael, I don't wanna put
you on the spot,

but how did you realise
that there were feelings

growing between you?

I felt like he was humble,
and that he was modest,

and that he wanted to do
the right thing.

So I felt that it would be a
good person to sojourn with,

and we could help one another.

Serve the Lord together,
so yeah,

I think that's my answer.

- It's not the stuff
of a Hollywood rom-com.

It was very Jane Austen,

if I can put it that way.
All proper and appropriate.

- I never thought that
I was cut out for this.

I saw myself as single
for life, no question.

- Did you? How come?

Never had any experience
with kids.

I was never around girls really.

You weren't a sort of party
boy?

- Nope.

This was our first impression
of Matthias.

Oh, OK, this is old-school Matt.

Wow. You look like a
'Wallace and Gromit' character.

He kind of does, I can see that!

I had just worked a night shift.
I was tired.

There we go.
We'll just go with that.

- That's nice.
What year is this?

- 20...
- 2012.

- And so you're just
clowning around in this one.

- And you got married here,
I take it, in the chapel?

- Yes.
- Who officiated?

Gramps.

- And the Bible's
quite traditional,

obviously, in the matter of...

the man's kind of in charge,
wouldn't you say?

- Yeah. He dictates what
the law of the home is,

and the wife
is to carry that out.

Just as Jesus Christ is
in charge of the church.

- Mmm.
- Yes.

- Steven had been
re-christened "Matthias"

but in his old life,
he'd been a postal worker.

He'd been raised by his dad,

after losing his mother
to cancer aged 13.

When was the last time you had
contact with your dad?

- About a year after
I got married.

- So six years ago.
- Yeah.

Once he found out that
I'm not gonna be there

drinking with him anymore,
wasting my time anymore,

then he's done, he doesn't have
a use for me anymore.

He's not leading me
down that path to hell.

- I could just imagine so many
people in the UK seeing you

and thinking
you were somewhat jaded

about life in the UK generally.
Is there something in that?

- Probably more the society
waxing worse.

- Yeah.
- When they forget God,

they wax worse.

People hate each other.

It's just a divided society.

- Between?

False religion, the Muslims,
and everybody else.

It's just hatred
between these factions.

Things don't look good
for the UK.

- It hurts to hear you say that.

- Well, feelings...
Feelings, Mr. Louis.

What good are feelings in front
of a judgment seat of Christ...

where we all will be?

- Matthias came across
as someone

who'd never really
fitted in to his old life.

A large family
selling a hateful brand

of religious certainty
must've had appeal

to someone who'd always
felt detached.

With those born into Westboro,
I'd always tended to think

they might've led normal lives
if raised elsewhere,

away from the poisonous
influence of Pastor Phelps.

But in the wake of his death,
strange reports had circulated.

Sources had told me

Gramps had had a change of heart
in his final days,

causing him to be excommunicated
from his own church.

- Do you want a sign, Louis?
- Oh, no, thank you.

- You sure? 'Cause I got
some good ones in here.

Let's use this one right here.
I like this one a lot.

It's a good question,
it's a good Bible question.

Why did God destroy Sodom?

- Westboro had never
publicly made a statement

about the death
of Pastor Phelps.

- There's Shirley.
- Yep.

- At a local picket,
I had a chance

to speak to Fred Phelps's
daughter, Shirley.

- Nice to see you.
- You too.

- How are you doing?
- I'm doing well.

I haven't seen you in a while.

- What do we do, shake hands?
- No.

- Nice to see you.
- You too.

- In my previous visits,
Shirley had been

an uncompromising and outspoken
messenger of God's hate.

- You worship your backside.

- Don't tell me what...
- You worship your tiny...

You just said it!
You said it!

Are you a homosexual?
Are you or not?

- I didn't say God
worshipped my backside.

- You do worship
your backside.

- Since then, three of
her children had departed.

According to Westboro beliefs,

she was now forbidden
from seeing them.

Among them was a daughter,
Megan.

Well, I don't know what
to say, Shirley,

'cause I know you've been
through a lot. And you've had...

Three children have left
since I last saw you.

- Yeah.
- That's a lot to take on board.

- I still have more,
so there might be more leave.

- You've got seven left.
- Yes.

- That must've
been very painful.

- Like life, it's all painful.

You know I've been
in touch with Megan?

- Well, I assumed you had.

Yeah. You know she's married
and has a daughter now?

Yes, I know that.

Who I'm assuming
you haven't met?

No, I have not.

If she came back and wished
to sit down with you,

how would that look?

- To what end?

- For a mother and daughter
to...

Look, the Lord Jesus Christ
said that your enemies,

that's his enemies, will be...
They have your own household.

And Megan left because Megan
doesn't believe these things.

So there's nothing to talk
about.

- Am I right in thinking Gramps

was voted out of the church
towards the end?

So, first of all,
we would never talk

about internal church
matters externally.

Why would we do that?
It's none of your business.

- Right.
- Whether somebody...

- And he's dead.
- He is dead.

So in a sense he's no longer
part of the church.

So in a sense it's not
an internal church matter.

- He's dead.
- Look...

- Shirley's saying he's dead,

what's the relevance
of him being dead?

He's my dad and I'm not
gonna talk about him.

Yeah, you're also selective
on your compassion, Louis.

Well, you're talking
about your feelings.

I thought you weren't big
on respecting feelings?

- I don't respect feelings.

So why are you playing
the feelings card?

- I have some,
but I don't respect them.

- You seem like you
used to be a truth seeker,

and now you're just
a muck raker.

I mean, what is all this?

Come on, man, it's like
you haven't grown at all.

You still wanna just kick
around the same things.

Well, I'll take that
as a compliment.

If he died having been
voted out of the church,

would that mean
that he went to hell?

So, first of all,
men are fallible.

God's infallible,
men are fallible.

Talking about Gramps, though,
at the end, did he fear God

and obey his commandments
at the end?

- Look, I don't know
a man's heart.

- Oh, you...
That's such a double standard.

It's not a double standard.

It is. It's like if you're
outside of the church,

then you hold them
to one standard,

and then if it's Gramps,
it's all this,

"maybe, don't know, could be,
might not, how could we know?"

I do know that all of us sin,
but there's a difference.

- But why was he voted
out of the church, then?

- Nobody said he was.
- Well, I know he was.

- Well, you don't know
that from anybody

inside the church,
you know that...

You're playing word games. The
fact that you won't confirm it

doesn't mean
that it didn't happen.

And I'm not gonna...

- The fact that
you make the claim

doesn't mean that
it happened either.

- Well, I know it happened.

OK, well, what else
do you wanna talk about?

Do you wanna talk about
something that means something?

- Shirley had come across
differently

from previous visits,
as almost fragile.

- I was on my way to see

Shirley's eldest daughter,
Megan.

Once one of Westboro's
most committed believers,

she was now its most
outspoken critic,

with a TED Talk
that had gone viral,

a book coming out,
and a Hollywood movie

about her life
said to be in the works.

- 99.9% of mankind is
heading straight for hell,

and there's nothing
you can do about it.

- You guys, right...
- Wait, wait, I'm gay.

- If you don't repent, you're
engaged in some filthy conduct,

you're headed straight for hell

and there's nothing you can do
about it.

The church had been
my entire identity.

So when I walked away from
Westboro, I walked into a void.

I didn't know who I was,
or what I believed.

I was terrified of my own mind,

the mind that had been,
not just convinced,

but passionately dedicated
to the idea

that my primary duty in life
was to warn the world

that they were all doomed.

- In Nebraska, following a
college speaking engagement,

I had a chance
to catch up with Megan.

- Hello.
- Hello.

There's two of you.

Isn't that crazy?
Actually three.

- Hi! Nice to see you.

- So good to see you, Louis.

- And this must be Solvi.
- Solvi.

- What a cutie.

Megan had emailed me soon
after she left the church,

and we'd remained in touch.

Yes, look at this, Megan.

This is good grabbing.

She was now married to a man

she'd met on social media,
while still inside Westboro.

- Gonna say "bye"? Bye-bye.
- Bye-bye.

OK, I think you're gonna sit
there, if that works for you?

- That's wonderful.
- And we'll just catch up.

- When I last spoke to you,

you were still inside
Westboro Baptist Church.

How would you explain
why you left?

- The shortest answer I can
think, is that it was

conversations I was having
with people on Twitter,

that first allowed me
to see inconsistencies

within Westboro's ideology.

Because the way that I saw
outsiders generally...

Even, you know, people
I went to school with,

there was always that sense
of otherness,

always keeping them
at arm's length.

Once I got on Twitter,
and started, you know,

developing rapport with people,

even though we obviously
were on totally different sides

of basically every
scriptural issue,

over time, it became this
community for me.

And I started to care
about what they thought.

And that made me start
to think, you know,

I started to care
about how they felt.

And then once that thread
started to unravel,

I couldn't unsee it.

- What occurs to me though,

is that all through Westboro
practice and preaching,

there are contradictions

that you would've been
aware of growing up.

But they also had this
kind of catch-all get-out

to do with, well, you're mortal,

and you can't understand
stuff that's divine.

You don't get to decide,
you just have to obey.

- Right. You know,
we claimed to love people.

This was the biggest
contradiction of all, I think.

And I was totally blind to it.

How is it possible
that we could at once think

that we were
loving our neighbour,

and then at the same time,

praying for God to kill them
in all sorts of terrible ways?

So, the old me,
like, pre-Twitter,

I would've found
a way to justify it,

I would've accepted their
explanations for things.

But once that crack was,
you know, kind of there,

I was not gonna go
to any more funeral pickets.

I wasn't gonna hold the signs

that I believed were
unscriptural.

- The sense of community Megan
derived from Twitter

seemed to have had the effect of
amplifying her inner doubts,

and emboldening her to leave.

Alongside that had been
a feeling of resentment

of what she saw as a takeover
by the church elders,

sidelining her mother,

and, after she left,
pushing out Gramps.

So then how did it come about

that Gramps kind of
fell out of favour?

I mean, as I understand it,
he was actually

voted out of the church.
Is that correct?

Yeah, that's what I've heard

from multiple people
who have left, since I did.

And they all point to, like,
the day that he was voted out,

he had gone out onto
the front lawn of the church

and said, you know,
called out to the people

at the Equality House...

- That's the
rainbow-coloured house?

Right. And said,
"You're good people."

And, you know,

they kind of ushered him
back inside and...

Which would be completely
contradictory

to his entire ministry.

- Absolutely.

And he was, I think,
at that point, 80,

you know, 85.

- What is your view?
Do you think

that he had a sincere change
of heart at the end,

or do you think that was
a symptom of dementia?

- I think he did have
a change of heart,

and they'll tell you that,
you know, he didn't.

Of course he didn't have
a change in perspective.

But the fact that it was
the actual,

like, the thing that
triggered his expulsion,

makes me believe
that it was real.

Which is why, you know,
I still have hope

that I'll get to have
my mom back someday.

- It was encouraging to see
Megan embracing a life

so radically different
to her old one.

A testament to the power of
human connection

to catalyse change.

But whether Gramps
had really reformed

remained an open question.

I found myself wondering
who might be next to go.

I knew Megan had a sister,

Shirley's only remaining
daughter, Becca.

Back in Topeka,
I found her picketing

a local church under
the watchful eye

of her older brother,
and Westboro elder, Sam.

Becca, are you alright to talk
about your sisters

- Megan and Grace a little bit?
- Sure. Yeah.

What do you wanna say
about that?

I say that it's a pretty sad
and sorrowful thing.

I've been touch in
with Megan a little bit,

and from her book, the sense I
got was there was a little bit

of a changing of the guard
at Westboro,

and that maybe your mum had been
somewhat pushed to the side.

And that there were elders
who were maybe

calling the shots more,

and that that was difficult,
you know,

for her and for Grace,
maybe for you as well.

- I haven't read anything
Megan's put out since she left.

Well, you would be able to
read it, though, wouldn't you?

- I don't read articles,
I don't read the books.

I've got my path
to run in front of me,

and I put blinders on.

She knows how to push my
buttons, and she's my sister,

and she was that child
right in front of me.

- You were very close.

I depended on her for a lot of
things for a lot of years.

And I thought at one point...

when I saw
that she was derailing,

when I saw that things
were going south

and she would be
in my prayers every night.

It was so distressing,
watching her...

and leading Grace.

- And then she walked away.

We didn't leave her,
she walked away.

So you don't get to come
with her perspective,

and her gripes against the way
that God set up

the order of things
in this world.

That a woman submits
herself to her husband,

that the man is the head
of the woman.

And to drag us through the mud

because she doesn't wanna
submit,

where we do want to submit.

And you can try
to make us ashamed,

and say we're misogynistic
and all that crap,

and you can take it
right to hell with you,

if that's what
you're gonna hold on to.

- We were getting to a moment
of emotion with Becca,

and you just kind of stomped
all over it.

- Yeah.

- I love it.
I give him full permission.

It's almost like it was
symptomatic

of the narrative
that I was pushing,

that I asked a female member
of the church a question,

and then the elder came
and spoke for her.

And you asked my mom about it,
and she answered you!

- But you're OK with that?
- He spoke with me.

- You liked that
he answered for you?

I love how the Lord

puts the order of things
in the Earth.

There's great help
to be had there,

and there's great safety
to be had there.

- What you're doing is,
you're setting up a world

where women are so helpless,

that they can't say what they
think and what they mean

in front of men.
Is that what it is?

They can if you're there
speaking for them.

- OK, 'cause she's my sister
too, Louis,

but you didn't come asking me
these questions, did ya?

- Would you like me to?

- That's a cute play you've got.

We can schedule an interview.

- Uh-huh. This is subversive
behaviour on your part.

It's kind of scary, though,

that you've been condemned
to such a thing.

To be the accuser
of the brethren.

That's work of Satan.

- Dude, why are you still here?

- Why are you still here?
- 'Cause I want him here!

- Oh, Louis. You're so slimy
and slithery, bro.

- What are you doing
for work these days?

- I work at Phelps
Chartered Law Firm.

- Cool.
- Kind of play of lot of roles.

- You're not married?
- Not married yet.

- Better to walk alone?
- I'm engaged.

- Are you?
- Yeah.

- Who to?

- Are you serious?
When did that happen?

- February 7th.

- It's all quite new.
- It's very new.

Joshua. Congrats.

- I think it's time to go.
- Hey, we've gotta go, guys.

- Becca's engagement
to newcomer Josh Jakes

suggested she might not
be leaving any time soon.

Despite the hate
they spew at pickets,

in theory, anyone can attend
a Westboro Sunday service.

This is sometimes the first step
on the road to joining.

Among those preparing
to worship was a new face.

- Louis.
- Good to meet you, Louis.

- How's it going?
- It's going alright.

- What's your name?
- J, just the letter J.

- So what's going on with you?

How did you hear about it,
and why are you here?

- I've seen both of your
previous documentaries,

and actually I wanted
to thank you for that.

Because I was able to come
to my current position

in relation
to the Westboro Church,

as a result partly of watching

those two documentaries
that you did,

which I am about 90-some percent

on the same page with
Westboro's doctrine.

- I made those programs from
a humanistic perspective.

- Right.

As a way of showing how
poisonous and hateful practices

had grown out of a certain kind
of religious practice.

You didn't see that I was
attempting to elicit...

I saw what you were attempting
to do, yeah, I did see that.

- Psychological take,
if you like.

I heard what they were saying,

and I really don't believe
in my heart

that they're a hate group.

In fact, I'm pansexual myself.

But because I'm a Christian,
I'm a born-again Christian,

I feel God's call to conform
to the image of Christ.

Hang on, wait a second.
You just said...

You're pansexual?

- That's right.
- What does that mean?

Pansexual is essentially
that my sexual attractions

are not limited
to any specific gender,

gender identity
or gender expression.

- Do you mean...
- It's not that I am

attracted to everyone, but I
could be attracted to anyone.

But I believe
that God's calling for me

to conform to his image
is more important

than my fulfilling my earthly...

urges and desires.

- So you are celibate,
is that right? At the moment?

- That's correct. The first time
I engaged in intercourse

was August,
and that was a mistake.

You know, it's either
you pursue temporary enjoyment

and you suffer eternally,

or you suffer for a little while
to be in the presence of God.

- In former years,
Gramps's weekly sermons

had been his chance to impart
his fire-and-brimstone theology

to the congregation.

God put it in your wicked heart
to start that war.

It's almost 18 months now
in the siege,

you've got people eating
their babies...

and their small children,
and each other!

You're gonna eat your babies!

- Since his death,
the seven church elders

took turns in the pulpit.

- Now, when it comes
to this issue of arms,

if there was ever a thing
that people liked to flaunt...

And it's sickening, really.

People absolutely love
for others to know

about their acts of charity.

Saying, "Here's my act of good."

- It was striking how
much the preaching style,

and even the message
of the sermon, had mellowed.

- Being a peacemaker means
that you tell people

how to have peace.

Lasting, real, true peace.

And that comes in one way,
being right with God.

- Increasingly I wondered
if Gramps's death

might've led to a toning down
of church practices,

and whether it might even
foretell bigger changes.

And it was possible the process
had started before he died.

By now I'd heard from
more sources

that Gramps
had been excommunicated

for behaviour
related to dementia.

With the church
unwilling to discuss it,

I'd made contact with one
of the most recent defectors,

who had been at the meeting
where Gramps

had been voted out of
the church.

Fred Phelps's granddaughter,
and Shirley's niece,

21-year-old
Rachel Hockenbarger.

- Hi, Rachel?
- Hi, yeah.

- Louis.
- Yeah.

- How you doing?
- I'm good, how are you?

Nice to meet you.
Can we come in?

- Yeah, of course.
- Look at you!

- You don't look very Westboro.
- That's the point!

- Tell me about your tattoos?

- So I have this one down here.
This is the first one I got,

and it is my siblings and I's
initials,

first and second initial,
all in binary code.

And then I have one up here.

- "Whatever nightmares
the future holds,

"are dreams compared to
what's behind me."

Yes, it's a quote from
'Guardians of the Galaxy',

Gamora says it,
which is who that glass is.

She's one of my favourite
characters.

- Does that mean
something to you?

- Yeah, just trying
to move forward.

And that was a concept I played
with a long time in my head.

- Were you a true believer?

Did you sincerely believe
when you were inside?

- For a long time, yeah.
I was baptised when I was ten.

- Which is quite young,
isn't it?

- Yes. Not the youngest,
but I was quite young.

I was just so angry
all the time,

because I was being forced
to hate people.

And I was always told
that I was, like, blessed

to be born where I was born,
but I didn't feel that way.

- I felt like it was a curse.
- Why?

Because you go out to pickets,

and you get things thrown at
you, you get screamed at,

and it's just,
everybody hates you,

and you hate yourself for it.

- So you were there when Gramps,

- your grandfather, died?
- Yeah.

And one thing
that's been alleged

is that he was out of favour
when he died.

- Yeah, it was very true.
Um, they...

He was very sick
and they isolated him

to his own house, and made
him live there by himself,

when he was too old and too sick
to take care of himself.

And then they ended up moving
him to, like, a hospice home.

- What had he done wrong
to be out of favour?

- They said he was
mistreating his wife,

and then he had told
the people across the street

at The Rainbow House that
they were good people.

Do you think this thing happened
with The Rainbow House?

- I do think it happened. Like,
obviously I didn't see it,

but it's been talked about
with, like, the group.

- The church members
at the time discussed it?

- Yeah.

- And it was seen as what?
Evidence of...

That he had fallen out of faith.

They see a lot of,
like, especially, like,

mental illnesses and stuff like
that as demons, as a curse.

And so they're like,
if God let that happen to him

then it is how he is
as a person basically.

- So it wouldn't be
purely medical?

- No.

It would be some symptom
of divine disfavour?

- Yes. They don't like
to talk about it

because, you know,
if you kicked him out,

then what strength do you have,
what's your foundation?

- Right, because if it
turns out he was fallible...

Mm-hmm.

..then, you know, maybe a lot
of the other interpretations

he put on things were incorrect.

Yep.

- Do you think
they'll ever change,

and there's a chance of it
all becoming almost normal?

- Maybe. I can't expect it,

but like I do have, like,
some hope that, like,

something will trigger this,
like, compete unravel of it.

You know, every kingdom falls,
it's bound to happen eventually.

But I don't wanna sit around
and wait for it to happen.

- The idea of Fred Phelps
being cut off and isolated

when he died seemed ironic,

given his role in creating
the doctrine.

Gramps's removal had coincided

with the increasing influence
of the male elders,

and it was clear something
was changing at Westboro.

Though exactly what,
and whether for the better,

was hard to say.

With these questions in mind,

I was paying a visit
to another church leader

who seemed to have been
sidelined, Shirley.

- Hello.
- Oh, snap!

- How are you doing?
- Look at you, all in pink.

Yeah. My mom lives here now.

- How's she doing?
- She's doing well.

- Shall I sit here?
- Sure, if you would like.

So what's been happening?

- A lot of good stuff.

- Yeah. And some not so good.

- No, it's pretty much all good.

- The picture I have
sort of pieced together,

is that Gramps died
and I've been told

that he'd been voted out
of the church in 2013.

And I'd heard that one
of the reasons he was voted out

was because he had approached
The Rainbow House,

next door to where
the chapel is,

and said, "You're good people."

And this was viewed
as in contradiction

to everything
he'd ever preached.

- He did not mean in any
of his words to say,

that it is OK
to flagrantly violate

the commandments of God.

- Evidently, whatever
your father said...

was part of a case
that was made against him,

that led to him being
voted out of the church.

- You don't have the full facts
about from the day

that you're speaking of,
to the day that he died.

You don't have the full facts.

- Well, would you care
to enlighten me?

No.

I mean, I'm sure it's been
immensely painful to you,

to have two of your daughters
leave at the same time.

And then not that long
after that, your son Zach.

Would you like to give me
a sense of how that felt?

- Well, I know you have a child.

- Three.

- It didn't start
the day they left.

I told you
when you here last,

that I see things
in the children

that cause me to wonder.

But I also told you that
if all of them leave...

Sorry...
Just give me a second...

..that it does not
change anything.

It certainly doesn't change God.

And it doesn't change
what I'm gonna do.

And don't ask me
questions like that.

It's... They were my children.

Everything that I had...

..was theirs.

Everything that I know
was theirs.

We treated them well.

But, we don't...

..control the heart,

we don't own salvation,

we can't do anything about that.

So...

we go with the wisdom of God

on all of these matters.

It doesn't change the fact
that it's sad,

and painful.

- It was strange to see
a woman so broken by grief,

and at the same time,
so unyielding.

A self-created victim
of the hate

she had sowed
for so many years.

- You guys are gonna
scare your child!

I'm from your neighbourhood,
man. I'm from Topeka.

I know where y'all are from,
man.

Y'all are all trash, y'all
are terrible human beings.

I don't care what you say.
You're scaring your child.

- And so we give a fuck
what you say?

- Another day of
picketing basketball,

and I had a moment
to reflect on what

I'd seen since being back.

A church still dedicated
to promoting bigotry,

though in a slightly
diluted form.

Losing members,
but making up numbers

with a new wave of
seekers and troubled souls.

- My life now
is lived for the Lord.

It's not my life,
it's not my decision.

I'm here because the Lord
brought me here.

- A group going
through changes,

but with a future
that was hard to predict.

So who lives upstairs here now?

- Nobody lives upstairs.

- I decided to speak
once more to Steve Drain.

- So you've been here before.
- Yes, I have.

- You know,
I'm gonna put a scenario,

and you probably won't like it,
but I'm gonna put it out there.

So the view I think
I'm gonna take is that

obviously Gramps died,
and since then,

what I see is a little bit
of a mellowing.

Did that shock you
when I said that?

- It doesn't shock me
at all and I...

- 'Cause you recognised it.

No, it's because
it amazes me for you

to think that you can come here
for a couple of days,

and now you've got the new view
of our church.

- Well, I knew you wouldn't
agree with it.

- No, it's not that
I don't agree with it.

Hey, listen, you still,
you still keep trying

to fit a square peg
in a round hole, Louis.

We love the Lord,
that's what we do here.

Mmm. I don't think
that's the part

that people are offended by.

- What are they offended by?
- Well...

The word of God, that's what
they're offended by.

I think the wanton use
of the term "fag" is...

Really? That's the hill
to die on?

How about this,
they're sodomites,

it's a filthy sin.

And we're not gonna sit here
and sanitise it,

because the world wants to
sanitise

that word etymologically,
into respectability. Fags.

- Well, yesterday the "F" word
was only on one placard

out of about 25.

Well, that's because
we have so many...

In the old days, it'd be half of
them would say stuff like that.

- That's because we
have so many more messages.

Come here. Look here.

That's common vernacular,
right there.

"Most people go to hell."

Does that not worry you?
Well, check this out...

But you could see that in
any kind of fundamentalist,

or evangelical corner
of the street,

The End Is Nigh, Ministry,
what you're...

Then go and do a documentary
on them then.

- That is classic Phelps.

- I made that sign.
- Yeah.

But, you know, those aren't
Easter bunny heads.

Those are Playboy Bunny heads.

- Yes, they are.
- On fag bodies so...

- Is it still the case
that you rejoice,

and are happy at the idea of,

say, soldiers being blown up,

or people being killed
in spree shootings?

Those are righteous judgements
of God,

because he certainly not only
could've prevented it,

but would have prevented
if his will dictated so.

Right, I got that, but I'm
asking a really simple question.

I have seen with my own eyes,
members of this church

laughing, hooting, jubilating
at funeral pickets,

right,
expressing joy and happiness.

- I can rejoice over it being
a righteous judgement of God.

And on a human level, go,

"Man, I think that's pretty sad
that that person died."

Doesn't mean that on
a human level we don't think

that it's a sorrowful thing
that happened.

- Do you know
what facial expression

goes with the idea
of rejoicing sorrowfully?

- You're not confusing...

Is that a smile,
or, what emoji is that?

- It's a ludicrous concept.
- It's not a ludicrous concept.

And it speaks to the
contradiction.

You're inhabiting a
contradictory concept,

and you're trying make
it sound reasonable,

it doesn't make any sense.

I think that
what you're doing here

is kind of pernicious, Louis.

Can you elevate the dialogue
a little bit here, brother?

The feeling I get
is that you have

a more complicated
attitude now.

It's less balls-out,

get horrible words
in these people's faces

when they're in
a vulnerable state.

Maybe the suffering that
you've all lived through,

losing so many family members,

has induced you to be more
compassionate and sympathetic

to the pain and suffering
you inflict on others.

Well, I think that's kind of
a simplistic viewpoint.

It's called growth, Louis,
it's called change and growth.

- My conversation with Steve
made me reflect

on the delicate position
Westboro was in,

facing a choice of how much
of Gramps's legacy to continue,

but unable to admit to
any deviation

from a doctrine that allowed for
no possibility of error.

- Thanks for getting
the diaper bag.

- No problem.
It's part of the service.

Megan was in town

on a visit to some other
ex-Westboro members.

She decided to make
an unannounced stop off

at her old home,
and she'd invited me along.

So, what's the plan?

- My dad's birthday's
on Saturday

and any time I'm around
at one of these times,

I try to leave something...
something there.

- Sorry, I can't see.

I'm just trying to figure out
where I'm going.

- There we go!

Hey.

- By now, in addition
to Becca's engagement,

I'd learned Megan's brother
Jonah

was also getting married
to one of the Jakes siblings.

I was intending
on sharing the news.

I wanna bring you
up to date on...

Well, I guess get your reaction

to what I've learned from
being back a little bit.

But maybe we should do that
after we walk around.

By giving a card to your dad
for his birthday...

- Yeah.
- ..you're doing that for you

or for him,
or for some other reason?

It is for me,
because I'm trying to be

the kind of person
that I wanna be, you know.

It is also because there is
this narrative in the church,

that when people leave,
that they don't care about you.

Mm-hm.

That they just wanna go off
and live a life of sin,

and that you don't matter
to them anymore,

and all of these things.
And it's just not true.

And I want them to know what
we're thinking and feeling,

and hope it will have some
kind of impact,

like, I don't know.

So I'm just gonna go do this
real quick.

- Are you OK?
- Yep.

- Yeah?
- Yeah.

Do you think she might be
in there?

Yeah. The van's there.

- But why don't I knock?
- Out of interest.

My sister knocked once,
and they turned off the lights

and pretended they weren't
there.

I just hate the sense
that I'm now, you know,

one of the people that
they're watching out for.

That they're watching
on the cameras,

and then sending these text
messages to the whole group,

you know, to warn them of,
you know, this...

whatever word you wanna use.

What word would they use?

Rebel. I mean, that's...
an easy one that comes to mind.

But it's kind of funny.

- Depraved, filthy beast.
- Sure.

- That's a bit more colourful.

- Much has been written about
the best way to reach

the indoctrinated minds
of Westboro,

whether to confront,
or protest, or ignore.

Megan's approach, a sustained
and friendly engagement,

was based on what
had worked with her.

I think JR and Matt
are in that one.

Is that right?

They're in the one that John
and Paulette were in.

- Oh, that's this one.
- That's this one?

Musical houses.

You know that...
I feel weird telling you this,

you probably know it,
that Becca's engaged.

No. No. To whom?

Josh Jakes.

I think they were a family
that arrived after you left.

- Yeah.
- But you know about them?

I know about them, I did not
know that she was engaged.

I mean, I obviously want her
to be happy, obviously.

I just...

It's a lot harder to leave

when you are married
and you have children.

I think it just makes things
a lot more complicated.

And when I was here,
one of the things

I eventually said to my mom
in a moment of despair,

and I don't know what
she thought about this,

was that there was no way that
I would ever marry anyone

that had anything to do
with this church.

Because when
the elders took over,

the way that the husbands
lord over their wives now,

I just absolutely believe
that this place is toxic.

So that's what...
When I think about Becca being,

you know, subjected to that,
in any way...

- It just makes me really sad.
- Mmm.

Oh, Becca.

And do you know Jonah is
engaged, did you know that?

I feel so terrible.

- Oh no, I'm sorry.

Because I know this is
supposed to be happy news,

and I really hope
that it is for them.

I really, really do. I just...

It just makes it obviously
a little less likely,

or a lot less likely

that I'll ever get to
have them back.

So I feel so terrible...

that this is the response.

I just love them
so much, you know.

I know it's a very selfish hope,
in some ways,

to have them out. I wouldn't
hope for them to leave

if I didn't think that it was
for their own good, you know.

It's a lot to take on board.

- Oh god, I just wanna go
curl up and cry.

- Do you wanna take a break?

- I'm sorry.

- I just don't understand
why it has to be this way.

It is just a heartbreaking
waste.

All these lost years.

Grace said to our mom once,
"If there were a God,

"why would he want it to be
this way for her daughters?"

And she's our mother.

I still don't have an answer.

- Is Solvi doing OK?
- She's doing really well.

- It would be difficult
to overstate

the amount of grief
caused by Westboro

and its doctrine of
divine hate over the years.

A creed created
by a spiteful pastor,

and passed down
through the generations,

dividing families,
and denying feelings.

But in my time back,
I'd also seen reasons

to believe in the possibility
of change.

Thanks in part to the death
of its founder,

but also one ex-member's
willingness

to fight hate with love,

and division with engagement.

- One point that I hope

you'll take away from all this
is that

when people are in the thrall
of poisonous ideology,

it's really not all about
deliberate ill will,

or lack of intelligence.

It's about the unbelievable
destructiveness

and staying power
of bad ideas.

And the more of us who
are willing to reach out,

to disagree without demonising,

the more likely we are to
change hearts and minds,

to heal divisions, and to
create a better society

for all of us in the process.

Thank you so much for having me.

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