Original subtitles

He said there was a lot of blood everywhere.

Amy had an obsession with dying young.

She was obsessed with the silent movies.

He says, oh, yeah, at my other house.

And I'm thinking, what other house?

Brennan replied, well, yeah, before I fell off the roof

and died.

I couldn't believe it.

I started to wonder what was happening.

He mentioned dying and going to heaven.

He told me, God sent me back on a white horse,

and I woke up as Brennan.

She said, Mom, this is me.

This is who I was in my last life.

I thought it was strange.

Something was definitely going on.

I thought Brennan was being haunted.

What's going on here?

There was something about her that was so sad.

That's not something a six-year-old would say.

Where this came from, I don't know.

What's going on?

Could he really be talking about a past life?

Oh, Buffalo used to be a small town when I grew up here,

like Mayberry.

Go back to the '60s.

And most of the local people that were here then

are still here.

Buffalo is 40 miles northwest of Minneapolis.

I couldn't wait 'til I was 18, so I could get out of here.

But then, I went out and saw the world.

And I figured out that, actually, this

is a pretty nice town to be in.

My husband, Craig, and I have five children.

Amy is our fifth child.

Amy was born premature three months.

She weighed two and a half pounds.

And it's just unimaginable how hard

it is to have a little baby in the hospital.

I was working a lot of hours.

We had four kids at home.

And that was a real hard time.

Theresa spent most of her days at the hospital with Amy

because she didn't come home for three months.

One day, the doctors would tell you,

she's doing wonderful.

She had a great night.

And the next day, you'd come in, and they'd say,

we're having some trouble today.

And there were just so many things

that could have happened.

I'd look into her little face, and I

knew she was here for a reason.

We were told by the doctors what a miracle she was.

When we brought Amy home, we were all very happy.

She was very, very quiet,

preferred to be by herself.

Interesting thing about Amy was that she didn't talk.

We were concerned, and we took her to different doctors

and speech pathologists.

And they really couldn't find anything wrong with her.

She just didn't want to talk.

She'd point to what she'd want, and we'd get it for her.

She would just gesture, and people

would do things for her.

She'd tug at your pants legs when she was smaller,

and somebody would pick her up.

We weren't overly concerned

until she was about five years old.

And then we were told that something wasn't normal there.

I started to wonder what was happening.

Amy was just really different.

She absolutely loved watching old movies.

She'd watch them over and over again.

And then she'd dress up and try to imitate

what she was watching.

And this one time, she went in the bathroom, came out.

She had her hair set in curlers.

It was just the most perfect job you could ever imagine.

Now, she was four years old.

I couldn't have even set her hair that perfect.

And then she had a big red bandanna tied over it.

And I couldn't believe how good she was at doing her hair.

I think she was more of a loner

because she was just happy by herself.

And she loved watching old movies.

She'd watch them over and over again.

It was different because none of the other children did that.

When she was watching her movies and she wouldn't even

acknowledge that you were in there,

she was almost trance-like, just--

just staring at it, oblivious to anything else

that was around her.

I found it a little odd.

Amy discovered silent movies on her own.

But I always felt like there was something connected to her not

speaking and her love for silent movies.

I thought it was strange.

We were concerned that she didn't talk.

Something different was definitely going on.

In Memphis, because we're in the Bible Belt,

we have, probably, a church on every other corner,

different denominations all lined up.

A lot of Christian tradition here,

values, and some very conservative

views because we are in the Bible Belt.

My name is Tan, and I have a six-year-old son named Brennan.

Before Brennan was born, I went through years of infertility.

I had a couple of miscarriages.

In one, I ended up having one baby stuck in each tube.

And as a result, I had to have a surgery where

one of my fallopian tubes was removed.

And at that point, I was told that I wouldn't have children

of my own.

I went through a huge depression.

I really wanted children.

I was already in my 30s, and that

was a huge blow to my faith and to my confidence as a woman.

Four months after I was told that I wouldn't have children,

I started to have a little bit of queasiness.

I didn't think that I was pregnant, so I waited a while.

Finally, I went to my specialist and took a blood test.

I was told that I was pregnant.

When I first held Brennan at birth,

it was more relief of, OK, you actually made it.

Because I was told I could not have a child.

And it was a miracle.

Brennan hit all of his milestones early.

He rolled over early, smiled early.

He started nonverbal communication

at around five or six months.

He started talking at nine, 10 months old.

By the time he was 12 months old,

Brennan was speaking complete sentences.

You know, there's smart, and then there's creepy smart.

It's kind of like he talks to you like a little--

like a little man.

My name is Kimberly, and I'm Brennan's aunt.

Sometimes Brennan acts like an old man.

Being that we're from the South and sometimes he

says adult things with a twang to it, like "git" over there

and sit "dyown."

Just his manner--

he's so matter of fact.

And he'll even say, I look handsome today.

And he prefers fedoras and jackets.

The style that he likes to dress was thriving around the '40s,

'50s.

A typical day for Brennan going to school

is a starched oxford button-down, a bow tie

or a necktie.

He usually picks a fedora or a newspaper boy hat.

Brennan is very much like a little old man.

He's the one that decided that he wanted

to start dressing this way.

I run a daycare center out of my home.

I'm around children five days a week.

I work with multiple ages, from six weeks to 12 years of age.

So I know children.

Most children, they're not worried about their clothes.

I have to say, OK, come on, let's fix your clothes,

and tuck your shirt in.

Now, fix your shoes.

And Brennan, he's very particular about the way

he looks.

I was proud, but then I started to get concerned.

Because he was smarter than I thought he should have been.

You don't know whether you should be proud or afraid.

Brennan was four, and he wanted to put together

this solar system--

Styrofoam balls, which you're supposed to paint

and all of that.

A friend of mine was helping him to assemble it.

And I think there were only, maybe,

four sticks that came in this kit.

And so she was asking me where the other sticks were.

You know, we're thinking that you're supposed to have one

stick per ball, or per planet.

Then I start to get on to Brennan.

What did you do with the other sticks?

And you know, he's saying no, no, no.

You're supposed to slide the planets through the sticks

instead of trying to assemble them the way we were trying

to do it.

Having this child direct two adults on how to put together

a solar system kit, that was a sobering moment.

It really was.

Brennan just knows how to make things,

and I can't explain how he knows how to do that.

He's always been able to do that.

We noticed, as a family, that Brennan started to have hearing

problems around five.

I thought, this is not normal.

And one day, when we were at the park playing,

and he was so far ahead of me, and he couldn't hear

me yelling, I was concerned about his safety

because I didn't want him to run off

into the rocks near the water.

And I was yelling for him, and he did not hear me.

About a year ago, it was diagnosed

that Brennan had a severe deficit in his right ear.

He's been to several specialists,

and it was what they considered unexplained.

But as a parent, it's hard to process emotionally.

It's hard to accept that your son is not

going to be able to hear.

If the doctors don't have an answer for it, what is it?

When my son, Brennan, was born, I was ecstatic.

I was told for years that I couldn't have children.

So when Brennan was born, it was a miracle.

Brennan was diagnosed with an unknown hearing loss.

You feel like you've hit a brick wall, as a parent, when

the medical professionals are telling you, keep an eye on it,

and here's a hearing aid in the meantime.

One of the terms I use about being Brennan's mom

is when the extraordinary becomes ordinary.

He has this insight that a lot of adults don't even have.

Having a child that is not only academically bright

but is also socially bright and gifted,

it's a lot of responsibility.

He can't be fooled very long.

So the things that you can get away with with other children

just don't fly with him.

It's kind of like he's been here before.

Well, one day Brennan and I were in the house,

just doing typical things.

All of a sudden, out of nowhere, he

says, oh, yeah, and, um, you know, at my other house.

You know, and I'm thinking, what--

what other house?

I'm like, we don't have another house.

Honey, this is-- this is our house.

This is the only house we have.

No, my other house.

My other room.

And he would try to describe it.

He said it was shaped like a rectangle,

whereas we were living in a house that was shaped more

like a square with a triangle on top.

But the house he was thinking about

was shaped like a rectangle.

Those are northern style homes.

In Memphis, we don't really have houses like that.

For him to be able to give me that kind of detail, that's

when I knew, OK, there was something a little bit

peculiar going on.

And then what happened next scared me.

I work around children all the time.

And I can tell when they're making things up

and when things actually happen.

Brennan, he doesn't lie.

And you can really tell because he

doesn't like to get in trouble.

So he's going to tell the truth.

He started talking about God sending him down.

That's when I started to think, what's going on here?

My daughter, Amy, was born three months premature.

And she didn't speak.

We were concerned.

We took her to different doctors,

and they really couldn't find anything wrong with her.

She just didn't want to talk.

When we first started bringing her

to speech therapists, they said there was nothing wrong.

When she wasn't talking at three or four years old,

it started getting worrisome.

And we did think it was due to the fact

that she was so premature.

Doctors said that it was normal that her speech might

be affected.

But once she got to be five years old

and she still wasn't talking, we were a little concerned.

I started to realize that it didn't have anything

to do with Amy being premature.

There was something else going on.

She also started wearing makeup when she was three and four.

She always had lipstick on.

I do wear a lot of makeup.

I love it.

I'm a real girly girl.

So when Amy came along and was a girly girl,

too, I really thought it was cute.

It didn't matter where she was going.

She would have her trademark lipstick on.

And it was always perfectly applied.

I couldn't believe how she could apply makeup.

She knew what kind of hairstyles.

She had the clothes to go with that era.

She would get dressed up like that for family parties.

I would try to tell her, why are you dressing this way?

Because it's not a formal party.

We're not going to sit down and eat dinner.

We're going to be playing volleyball and barbecuing.

I was concerned about it.

Amy started to blossom around six years old.

I don't understand why.

Just all of a sudden, she started talking.

I was really happy.

When she did start talking,

we were relieved because we knew it wasn't permanent.

I can't remember when I first

noticed that Amy was out of step with other children.

She was always a bit eccentric and quirky, even as a toddler.

But she was so darn cute that we just gave her latitude,

let her be herself.

I just really wanted her to get out of the house,

and get some exercise, and have some fun,

and maybe meet some new people.

She was afraid of a lot of things.

She was not a joiner.

She was a loner.

There were times where I would come home from work,

and it'd be a nice, sunny summer day.

And everybody's outside playing, and she's still in the house.

I would tell her, I said, get outside and enjoy the sun.

This is Minnesota.

It's going to be snowing in a couple months,

and you won't be able to do it.

I thought it was a little odd that she would stay inside.

I think sometimes Amy felt like she didn't really

belong.

She didn't connect with kids her age at all.

And I felt bad about that.

And I was sad.

All of our kids, we'd ask them

what they want for birthdays or Christmas presents.

And it was usually hockey skates or fishing poles.

And Amy wanted old posters or old movies, old silent movies.

If we were ever on vacation, we had

to keep our eyes open for anything old.

That's what she wanted.

Amy loved to go to antique stores.

And she seemed to find connections with certain things

that she would see.

She would see a dress, and she'd say,

oh, I had one just like that, only mine was yellow.

And I wore it to this party.

I remember there was this man that I talked to,

and he was so nice.

And he bought me a Coke.

I started to wonder what was happening.

By the time Amy was nine or 10, she just absolutely

was obsessed with movie stars, and especially movie

stars that had tragic deaths.

She would research the people in the movie.

And if somebody died young, she would do more research.

Amy talked about dying young all the time.

It was disturbing.

But she seemed to have a lot of empathy for people that

had tragic childhoods.

And I don't know where that--

where that comes from.

I was concerned about the obsession,

and I did try to steer her away from it.

I would say, it's only going to make you sad.

Concentrate on the happy things that happen, not the sad part.

My wife would let me know what was going on,

what she felt about all these young people dying

at an early age.

And I thought, well, I don't really

know what to say about it.

Amy had a charmed childhood.

And I think she would agree.

So it is a little bit bewildering

why she would be so interested in movie stars that died young.

I couldn't help Amy.

I wanted to shield her from tragedies like that.

I felt helpless.

I just thought, at the time, it was

a phase she was going through.

I had no idea how everything was going to pan out

when it was all said and done.

I couldn't believe what happened next.

My daughter, Amy, became obsessed

with people dying young.

She was consumed with old Hollywood.

I felt helpless because I couldn't help Amy understand

that that's life.

And I wanted to shield her from tragedies like that.

I think there was a connection between Amy being

a loner and the whole silent movie phase that she was in.

I think Amy was trying to find herself

through the silent movies.

It made her feel comfortable.

It made her feel alive.

It was a little odd when she started

talking about Jack Pickford.

She was in love with Jack Pickford.

He was her first crush.

She had to have been 10 years old.

I wasn't home a lot, but when I was home,

I did hear the name Jack Pickford a lot.

I didn't know anything about Jack Pickford

until Amy told me.

Jack Pickford was Mary Pickford's brother.

Mary Pickford was an actress.

She was America's sweetheart back in the 1900s

through the 1930s.

But Amy really felt sorry for Jack.

From what I've heard about Jack Pickford,

I don't think I would want him associating

with one of my daughters.

He's been portrayed as a wife abuser, an alcoholic.

Supposedly, he died of syphilis.

But Amy carried pictures of Jack Pickford all the time.

I found it really strange that Amy was so enamored with Jack

Pickford.

He's not the kind of man, from what I heard,

that you would want your daughter associating with.

Amy would get so upset when she would read something,

or somebody would say something-- somebody's blog

or something on the computer.

And she would go, that's just not right.

She goes, I'm so mad.

How could they say that about Jack?

They don't even know him.

It was extremely bizarre to have a 10-year-old defending a man

who has such a reputation.

At first, I thought Amy's fascination with Jack Pickford

was just a phase.

But then I discovered that it was much bigger than that.

One day, when Amy was about 12 years old,

she showed me a picture.

And she said, Mom, this is me.

This is who I was in my last life.

Where this came from, I don't--

I don't know.

My son, Brennan, is very bright.

And he has this memory that's like a steel trap.

He remembers everything.

So when he started talking about his other house

and the other room, I started wondering where is this--

where is this coming from?

It's frustrating.

Because it's a hard position to be in as a parent when you're

trying to tell your child something doesn't exist

and they know that it does.

But because I knew he was so well connected and grounded

in reality, I knew that this had to be something he really

believed in.

When Brennan was six, he was able to tell me that God sent

him down to me because God knew that I really wanted children

and because he was such a kind, smart man the last time.

He told me, God sent me back on a white horse,

and I woke up as Brennan.

That's the kind of thing that, as a parent,

you get chills about.

But where else is this coming from?

I was trying to process, like, what he meant.

This is when you realize you're having a conversation

that you're not quite equipped as a parent to have.

And the emotional intelligence that was in his voice

when he said that to me, it was so sincere, and it struck me.

Because that's not something a six-year-old would say.

Brennan started to ask me questions.

Did I remember being a grown person before?

And I didn't.

And so Brennan started saying to me that there were old people,

and there were new people.

I wondered, could this actually be?

We were in the car, driving to the store.

And in the back seat, he made a comment

like, it's gonna be dark here soon.

He sounded like a farmer.

I just remember thinking, what child says how

it's gonna be dark here soon?

And in that moment I asked him--

not prepared for the answer--

Brennan, have you been a grown-up before?

Do you remember being a grown-up before?

And very matter-of-factly, Brennan

replied, without missing a beat, well, yeah,

before I fell off the roof and died.

I'm-- I'm surprised that I didn't lose control of the car

at the time.

There are moments in your life that you will forever

remember in detail.

Things slow down, and you can just remember exactly where you

were and exactly what your response was,

and everything around you is just stuck.

That was that moment for me.

You know, it almost knocked the wind out of me,

emotionally and mentally.

Because you're thinking, OK, my son just

told me that he has memories of falling off the roof and dying.

So as I'm putting him in the shopping cart,

I'm still trying to be very cavalier,

you know, just very, kind of, cool.

Oh, OK.

So you fell off the roof and died.

Oh, OK.

Well, you know, what was you doing?

And he replied, well, I was working on the roof,

and some of my grown-up friends were helping me.

I was working on the roof and they were working on the walls.

He was so matter-of-fact.

It was almost like, well, duh.

Didn't you know?

And that just knocked the wind out of me.

In that moment, I thought, could he really

be talking about a past life?

My daughter, Amy, was obsessed with silent films

and the actor Jack Pickford.

The real surprise came when she told me

that she had lived before.

One day, when Amy was about 12 years old,

she showed me a picture.

I looked at the picture, and I had no idea who it was.

There was just something about her that was so sad, so tragic.

It was a picture of Lucille Ricksen.

She went on to tell me Lucille's story.

And it was just so heartbreaking.

She said, Mom, I think I was Lucille Ricksen

in my last life.

I had never heard of the lady before.

I was shocked.

Because I thought she was only 12, 13 years old.

But looking back, she had been doing this for the last eight,

nine years.

And then, she said, Mom, she died when she was 14.

When she came to me with the photograph of Lucille,

it was like somebody socked me in the gut.

Because she truly believed what she was saying.

I was surprised, the knowledge that she had.

This wasn't a famous movie star to me.

I just spent hours researching Lucille.

Unfortunately, Lucille had a very tragic life.

Her mother, Ingeborg, was the ultimate stage mother.

Lucille made her first movie when

she was only five years old.

And she was very beautiful.

And the studio really took advantage of her.

And if you didn't go along with what the studio said,

you just didn't work.

Well, they even called her the "youngest leading lady"

in Hollywood.

She worked long hours.

I mean, she even had roles where she played the wife.

Lucille just grew up way too fast.

She became ill.

She was bedridden.

There were a lot of rumors.

But her mother had a heart attack.

She collapsed and died right on top of Lucille.

And then, two weeks later, Lucille was dead.

Lucille's last words were, "Mother is waiting."

I think that Amy is speaking up for a child star that never had

her own voice.

Amy didn't have her own voice for a while.

And now she does, through Lucille.

It just breaks my heart.

That made me start thinking a little bit more.

There would be things that she would

say that weren't on the movies.

OK, maybe she's really on to something here.

When Amy saw the picture of Lucille,

it triggered emotions and then memories of her past life.

It turns out that Lucille Ricksen and Jack Pickford

had worked together in several movies.

And she knew all this without even researching it.

My name is Amy, and I'm 17 years old.

I never understood why I was drawn to the silent movies.

No one else was interested in that.

It made me feel a bit odd, that something wasn't right.

When I first saw a picture of Lucille,

there was only about two known pictures of her

on the internet.

And when I saw it, I basically just stopped breathing.

I knew that there was so much there.

It all clicked about my obsession

with dying young, obsession with child stars.

And then when I saw she was in "The Hill Billy" with Jack

Pickford, it all clicked that I--

I knew him, and that's why I had these feelings.

One memory I remember specifically

is looking down and seeing beautiful silver shoes

and a long, frilly dress and Jack Pickford on the set

drinking Coca-Cola all the time.

He would come up to me and ask, how are you doing today,

lovely?

Or how are you doing, pretty--

lots of darling and sweetie.

And he seemed like he genuinely cared about how I was feeling

that day.

And it didn't come across as creepy or that he was trying

to hit on me.

It just seemed like he really cared.

I knew that I would love him forever.

One memory I had as Lucille is looking down and seeing blood

all over.

It's written that I died from tuberculosis.

But exactly how I died, I think what's written isn't true.

I feel a lot of regret for my life

as Lucille being cut short, because it could have been

saved if I would have spoken up.

And now I get to have my own voice because Lucille never

had her own.

And there isn't even a sound of Lucille.

She's just a face and just on the screen.

So I'm glad that now I can talk about my life as well

as Lucille's.

I feel speaking about Lucille now is my chance to finally

say goodbye to all of those people that I still hold on to.

Because it's time to move on.

And now I feel I'm strong enough to finally say goodbye to them.

My mom has arranged for us to go to Hollywood

and to get some closure on my life

as Lucille as my new chance now to start a better life.

From what we know of Lucille's life,

it wasn't all happiness.

She has to deal with some of the bad things that happened

to Lucille.

I feel like it's an important part of Amy's journey

to go to Hollywood, and we'll see

what happens when we get there.

When my son, Brennan, told me he fell off the roof

and died, I--

I didn't know what to think.

You don't really know where to go with that.

They don't really teach you that in parenting class, what

to do when your child tells you about a past-life experience.

And I asked him, so when you fell off the roof, did it hurt?

And he was like, yeah, it hurt.

I fell off the roof and died.

And I said, oh, OK.

What did you see?

And he said, there was a lot of blood.

I was like, OK.

Is this something that we need to take him to church

and pray about, get it off of him?

What is this that he's going through?

It is hard to hear, as a parent, your son talking

about dying or remembering the trauma involved with a death.

I mean, I don't know how that's going to affect him.

I don't know if that's already affecting him,

and I just wasn't aware.

I did not believe that Brennan had a past life.

I didn't even think about reincarnation.

Here in the South, if, you know,

the Bible doesn't say it exists, it doesn't exist.

I say, you know, just because it doesn't say it doesn't mean

it doesn't exist.

So many things started to make sense for me.

One fact was that he remembers falling and there being trauma

to this side of his head.

I remember falling off of a house.

Brennan is convinced, and he will tell you--

I hit my head right here.

That's why I have the hearing aid.

- that's the reason I can't hear in my right ear.

Because when I died, I hurt my head on this side.

There's still-- there's still something wrong with it.

The thing that made me think that Brennan did

have a past life was the hearing thing.

He can't hear in his right ear.

My sister took him to the doctor.

They don't know why he has hearing loss.

Because everything is fine, structurally, with his ear.

I'm like, OK, it is something.

Brennan would start giving me

details about his other family in his other life.

He told me that his dad looked kind of

like his dad in this life, but he had a beard.

You know, of course, his dad in this life doesn't have a beard.

My dad died kind of early, when I was in my 40s.

At some point, Brennan mentioned that he believes

he was born in Springfield.

Recently, I've been doing some research,

and I've come up with several different choices

that I want to present to Brennan just to see if anything

stands out.

I'm excited about showing Brennan some possibilities,

just to give us some closure, or a place to start.

You know that we were trying to figure out who you were when

you were a grown man?

Yes.

I found a couple of things I want you to take a look at.

You don't have to make up anything.

If you remember, great.

If you don't, that's OK, too, right?

Yes. OK.

So I just want you to tell me the truth.

If something stands out, or if you remember something,

just let me know, OK?

OK.

OK.

So can you take a look at these and tell me

if any of these names or any of these places

sound familiar to you?

George Fred Douglas.

That doesn't sound anything like mine.

OK.

William Stanbaugh-- no.

James P. Patterson, city of Springfield.

Right?

Yeah.

James P. was born in 1902.

Mm-hmm.

Does any of that sound familiar?

Yes.

Not much is known about his upbringing other

than they think that he spent most of his life

in construction work.

When Brennan connected to one of the articles,

it was a surprise for me.

Because I wasn't sure if we would get anything.

There were so many different articles.

There were so many different stories.

James was working on a roof at a four-story dormity.

Dormitory.

dormitory when he lost his balance and fell 40 feet to his

death.

Does that sound familiar to you at all?

This is really happening.

He's really connecting.

It's still so surreal that it's a surprise.

But I believe him.

This is it.

It's it.

Definitely that one.

OK.

Well, do you think that you want to find out a little bit more

about James Patterson?

Yes.

Should we look up some more information about him?

Yes.

And can we see a picture of him?

The death happened in the '60s, so it's possible

that we could find a photograph, which is something he's really

interested in doing.

OK.

I'll see what we can do.

We'll start some research on that, OK?

Well, I'm really excited that we were able to find someone

that lines up with everything Brennan's been telling us.

This man was a construction worker and fell off a roof

and died.

He lived in Springfield and in a time

where the fedoras and dressing up every day was the norm.

And of course, Brennan likes dressing this way.

It's important to me to be able to find out

more about who he possibly was if he's interested in it.

Because I don't consider it a past life.

I consider it a part of who he is.

It's all Brennan.

His memories from that long ago, to me,

are no different than his memories

from what he ate for breakfast this morning.

It's all the same consciousness.

It's all the same person.

I am able to come to grips with that he was once here

and he was a grown man.

I don't want to say that it's reincarnation.

I mean, it is what it is, reincarnation.

But I don't want to label it as that.

It's nothing that he wakes up in horrifying dreams about.

So as long as he's OK with it, I'm OK with it.

I'm glad--

I'm glad that God sent me to the mom I have now.

She really wanted a baby.

It's a surprise.

I feel like Brennan was sent here for a special purpose.

I really do.

If I were to be asked if I think Brennan was sent here

to save me, probably more than I could ever say.

Spiritually, I believe he did.

Because at that point, he reopened the conversation

for me and God.

Especially when he says that he was sent here to help me,

one thing that I know for sure that he did was he

gave me my faith back.

We're really here in Hollywood.

This is where Lucille lived and died.

When we walked up to the house, I

think the reality of everything came crashing down.

It brought back a lot of memories.

I was having panic attacks because I was thinking

of the months I spent secluded inside of my bedroom, sick.

You have to remember she died in the house.

That was pretty sad.

We're really here in Hollywood.

This is where Lucille lived and died.

I think Amy meeting with the biographer

is going to help her fill in some holes in the story--

Hi. I'm Michael.

Hi.

Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you.

- and maybe answer some questions that she has.

How much do you know about Lucille's life?

A lot.

I'm having flashbacks from my life as Lucille.

I guess we'd like to ask you questions

and see if it jives with what she's been feeling and--

Great.

Ask me questions.

What was Lucille's relationship with Jack?

Jack Pickford? Yeah.

Oh, yeah-- Jack Pickford. Jack Pickford.

Yes.

He, of course, selected her for the role in "The Hill Billy."

Yes.

I got that right.

Yeah, I said that.

I feel I met him at the WAMPA party.

And he said that I'll be seeing you.

And I didn't know what that meant.

And then we got the call that he wanted me for "The Hill Billy."

For the leading lady in "The Hill Billy."

Yeah.

I want the exact kind of date when I got sick.

Because I felt that it was during "The Galloping Fish"

with Syd Chaplin.

It was during "The Galloping Fish."

OK.

It was about that time.

And of course, Lucille, at that time,

had made about 10 films in seven months.

And I think it was really too much for her.

Lucille was very, very seriously ill when her mother died.

I think the stress of Lucille's illness

was certainly a factor in her mother dying.

We are not sure how Lucille died.

Her death certificate says, you know, pulmonary tuberculosis.

But there were rumors that she was overworked,

which certainly she was, and that perhaps she had gotten too

friendly with some of her co-stars--

a director, perhaps-- and became pregnant, and had an abortion,

and then never completely recovered.

That is a rumor that's out there.

Oh.

It was Syd Chaplin that did that.

It was Syd Chaplin?

Yeah.

That's how I feel I died, was from an abortion.

Like, that wasn't the main thing.

But around the time we were filming "The Galloping Fish" is

when it all happened.

And she did work with Syd in "The Galloping--"

Yeah.

I can't find any validation on this, and maybe it's not true.

But I feel that I don't know how--

if we could ever figure that out.

What's your personal opinion?

I think something happened.

I think something more sinister than just overwork.

I think someone took advantage of her youth

and caused her to grow up before she was ready.

Of all the people that I have written about and researched,

I think, you know, Lucille stands out as the saddest.

And the story still haunts me.

I think she cries out for justice and retribution

as to what happened to her.

Yeah, I agree.

Michael validated some points of Lucille's life

that I needed to know.

And I feel really great about it.

How did the Ricksen family feel?

I think the area around Lucille's life

was always a mystery to them.

They didn't know where she was buried.

Through Lucille's scrapbooks, we found a burial plot.

Oh.

Hi.

We're looking for Lucille Ricksen.

Excuse me?

Lucille Ricksen.

Just been up and down today with all sorts of emotions--

happiness, sadness, just the realization that we're really

here, seeing the urn.

It's an emotional thing.

I feel different now.

I feel better.

And I feel like I can live a better life than as Lucille.

It feels like a weight has been lifted off of me.

I feel good.

Even though it's sad, are you glad that you came?

I'll never forget my life as Lucille.

But I feel like now I can continue my life just as Amy.