Original subtitles

okay

and then the other thing i have you do

is um just uh we also got a verbal

release and just say yes you know you're

being filmed for color me obsessed and

you're

fine with the footage being used in the

film okay so

which part would you like me to do first

that makes no difference

my name is bill mclesley and my title

i've gone with professional title of tgw

gtd which means the guy who gets things

done

and that's been my title for 15 years

so but don't use just use the initials

and people will be confused by that

um i i realized that i'm being

uh photographed recorded and videotaped

for the film calling me obsessed

excellent and you're cool with that i'm

very cool with that yes very cool with

that

okay um

why the replacements why the

replacements

uh

uh i'll give you the back story um i

lived about three blocks from a local

record store in minneapolis called

orfolk djokovis

and i during high school

uh would visit there regularly maybe

seven nine times a week to see what was

coming in on the

used pile uh and i uh met a gentleman

named peter jesperson who was

manager of the store and uh was a big

influence on what i would

select you know if i pulled up a bunch

of albums and he was

totaling them up and i could see the

grimace on his face he i might

well i was just thinking about that when

i pull it back out of the pile

um anyway so peter and i became known to

each other over the period of time that

i was going to the record store a few

years

and i uh i got a call one night

from a music club in town called duffy's

and duffy's some i honestly remember the

person was asked me if i could come down

and do sound

for a band that was playing that night

and i said sure yeah no problem i'll

come down

i made my way down there and i believe i

ended up taking the bus

to get to the facility because i was 18

but didn't own a car

went down to the facility and i saw

peter and i'm like hi peter

and he's like great i'll guide you

through this and

he guided me through the first show i

did with the replacements

which was from an 18 year old's

perspective i had no idea who this band

was

i connected the name of paul westerberg

with a classmate mary

westerberg uh only after

um didn't realize they were related knew

peter of course

um and we did a show you know it was a

packed house

and what uh year was this this was

this would have to have been 1983

or four it would have to be it was it

would have been

spring uh let it be yeah let it be just

about to be released

okay um and

i you know i'm like this is great um of

course there was

much hura about the success of the show

and i'm

still kind of without a clue as to what

this means and who this who these people

already are

let me just ask for questions could this

have been

um we have a lot of duffy's stories

and um and i love the idea that this is

the potentially you know this is the

potentially true story of the

replacements

right um and none of the duffy's stories

even come close to matching

of course not um which is kind of funny

um they're just sort of what i'm

enjoying in this the

the rasheman kind of thing but uh by any

chance you know if this

was that big friday night gig there was

free admission

but and it was just like packed well it

was packed

yeah um do i recall that it was friday

or free mission

friday night uh strong

possibility because i was asked on the

way home that night i mean

of course now it's after bus time so i'm

trying to figure out how i'm going to

get from one side of minneapolis the

other side of minneapolis

and didn't really as much as i

hitchhiked at that time i didn't think

it'd be wise to hitchhike at that time

um so i got a ride from somebody and on

the ride i got asked by peter hey are

you free

tomorrow now whether it was tomorrow or

the next day i'm not real clear but it

was like yeah

i'm free to go and he's like okay we'll

pick you up we're going to madison

and it kind of it wasn't any kind of

official we're going to pick you up to

do this

it was more of we're just going to you

know

we're just going to invite you along and

use your talents or skills

for the foreseeable future or for this

at least this weekend

yeah maybe the next weekend and when

i think when it was found out that i

didn't actually drink and they knew i

could drive it was like

there's the golden boy we're going to

pick that guy up because

we don't have to worry about it and

everybody else can do what they want to

do

so so it's a very strong possibility it

was that particular show

i do recall it being incredibly packed

and it wasn't close to the course of the

university campus

was that the first time you had ever

heard of no

then the mix i mean i mean why did they

ask you i mean well

so my background to that is that i

didn't do a lot of mixing and did a lot

of theater work

um prior to that i worked with several

bands in my high school and of course

we tried to do our own things and

minneapolis at that time had a pretty

reasonable

a decent indie scene and you know we

played whatever gigs we could play and

you know

maybe i would make 100 bucks a week

maybe i'd make 100 bucks a month it was

no sure thing and it was of course

you know you get to play once or twice a

month so there's not enough

turnover in actual gigs to make money

right

so um so yeah i was asked to come along

so i drove to madison and we did

something on river street i don't even

know the name of the club

and then by the way we're going to cubby

bear in chicago can you come along it's

like yeah sure no problem and i

you know whether my skills were good or

bad

uh i seem to hit a click with

the actual the actual band got

you know they like the results the

musicians like the results the

the the fans like the results i enjoyed

the energy of the environment um still

not really realizing

you know that this is the big band or

one of the big bands from minneapolis

you know the rivalry between husky and

the replacements was pretty strong

and um you know i

i had a great time in that first few

days but i didn't really realize that

this was going to become a long term

thing it was once again kind of seated

the pants very

very seated the pants so

what happened next um

well it what happened next we got back

from

our my first weekend gig with them uh

and i

asked peter about you know the

formalities of this and you know the per

diem

particular per diem of the you know the

the the tour at the time

or the the events of the time i think it

was

15 a day and that was for

show days of course which means if there

were four shows a week i was making 60

bucks a week

and that's not great it's not

bad but it would mean that i would need

to do something other than that

um and i did i kind of just did other

bands around town and

developed my my name around town

um we did

several longer event tours or longer

stints

and once again i i was

unaware really unaware of the the

magnitude

of the press the magnitude of the review

the magnitude of

the critical audience saying you know

this is something to be watching

right and it didn't really occur to me

that you know there would be somebody in

the audience that would be

thinking about signing these guys to a

deal you know i wasn't

warned or informed i can recall one

occasion in new york city when they

thought that there was going to be

somebody in the audience that would be

interested in was that the cbg music uh

it was not the cbtv show it was another

location

do not know the name of the particular

place um the cd-tv shows were

did a few of them there and alex chilton

did one

opening there and that was you know

those shows were much more relaxed there

was much more

uh interaction with the audience and i

think the intimacy of the actual

environment was much more attractive

to the band and to into the audience

also

um it was a

i don't want to overstate the the

the simplicity of the of the mind that i

had at that time

but i really did not think it was going

to be

something we'd be talking about today

which is kind of i mean you know if i

had taken a journal every day and i'd

written something down every day and

kind of said you know here's here's we

ran into um

you know you just watched johnny hooker

open up and or just you know just saw

pete buck

talking to paul backstage or whatever it

might be

you know now it means something but at

that time i was

too dumb to realize how cool it was

when did well i mean okay so you're

mixing this band for the first time

first time you really your first

exposure to them what did you think of

the band

what did i think of the band um well i

didn't i

after i told my my own network my

friends at the time of who i was working

with and what i was doing

you know because well back up since i

did not drink

i did not do a lot of the social

gathering at clubs i would only go to

clubs to work

yeah um so my friends who were going to

social clubs going to clubs for the

social aspect of it would tell me like

oh my god you know i've heard

that they're like the craziest band ever

they get naked and they run around and

they just play crazy covers and they

don't play anything straight and

what's it like and of course i hadn't

quite seen that

portions of that but you you can't you

know those kinds of stories

come from a single incident within a

spectrum of days or weeks or months

um so i was watching for those things

and kind of almost expected those things

to occur when they did occur

it was oh okay so bob's wearing a tutu

cool that's what i expected okay you

know the the inside component of that is

did you know off stage

off performance there was

that was where to me the real insight

and the real observations came in

because watching him on stage was

something that the audience also saw and

it was about paul and the band

performing what they wanted to perform

at the time

not i'm gonna get this song out and i'm

gonna put this emotion to the song it's

like i'm just gonna have fun and if i'm

pissed off

i'm gonna share my anger with the

audience or if i'm having a fun time

i'm just gonna have fun and i don't

really care and that i don't really care

is the mantra it is the

i don't really care we don't really care

what you guys think

we're having fun we're not here to

entertain you

this isn't a spectacle even though it

may be a spectacle

it isn't about being a spectacle it's

about us having a good time

getting through the night making some

money so i can make tomorrow's rent or i

can

get another whatever hit whatever it

might be

yeah um

i don't know if that answers the

question directly or not and i may have

gone way off topic

um so to give you a little more

background about myself

i lived with a during high school i

lived with

a friend of mine whose parents had an

opera company

which is kind of an interesting twist in

in the world

um they did a very light opera a lot of

gilbert and sullivan

and they the facility they actually did

their opera in

they decided they would open a

non-alcoholic club called the bataclan

the bataclan was open for a very short

period of time

and they had as one of their musical

guests was a band called the impediments

and the impediments were put off stage

before they even got on because they

brought alcohol into a non-alcoholic

club

and i was actually doing lights for that

particular event and we ended up not

having a show that night

which is the quote-unquote first

replacement show before they actually

became the replacement wow

which is a small world and it was not

that i was there because

i got into the relations because of that

it was like completely separate events

that was on 79 or 81 or

somewhere in there so this is prior to

sorry ma or don't ask or any other any

anything and

the so going through my theatrical

career i've got a level of

professionalism that i've

maintained and i'm

going on going on tour with this band

thinking okay we're going it's going to

be this and i've you know i've heard

about opera tours and i've heard about

rock tours and i've heard about

whatever kind of tours and i'm thinking

it's going to be something like this and

it has turned out to be

nothing like that it was much more a

family going on a road trip or a camping

trip

so i mean and that's you know i don't

know if that gives you any little bit of

insight but i'm thinking about it being

you know i'm thinking about i'm not

really thinking about my career or what

it's going to be like in the future i'm

thinking about you know great we're

going to go to this place i'm not going

to look around the town i've ever been

there before cool

i hope they have pineapple juice at the

bar really simple

very narrow focus very short term event

horizon

can we make it through the night where

do we get guitar strings do i have no

guitar picks

that kind of stuff but i'm also thinking

about okay how do i make this

more professional when if the band wants

to be almost the opposite

so nothing wants to be but they just are

yeah to take it from someone who

wouldn't know what your job entails what

did you what

when you worked with bands subsequently

in the future

uh and you know the way what would

what's the professional way that you

expected it to happen and tell us how

it differed well

um i remember you talking to us on the

phone right okay so

an example of

an example of a level of professionalism

versus a

a level of running by the seat of your

pants would be if

i'm going into a facility let's just say

that we're gonna go do

an acoustic performance and i'm gonna

run sound and you're gonna sit down with

your guitar a microphone for your guitar

microphone for your vocal and you're

gonna play

12 songs or whatever it might be or

three songs you're going to go in

hopefully having some experience of the

environment knowing how loud you need to

be

maybe knowing if you can hear yourself

when you're strumming if it's going to

be booming on the stage whatever it

might be

and we would actually go in and do a

quote-unquote sound check where i would

be able to hear stuff and go okay well i

know when there's going to be

250 people in here it's going to sound a

different way but i think i've got a

good grasp of

what it is that i need to do in order to

make it so that from

first note to last note it's

a good performance because i'm thinking

about performance

and that

for no reason other than we couldn't get

to the facility in time or

we just didn't want to take the time to

do a sound check

sound checks were not done which is an

interesting perspective

from the professional's perspective he's

like

yeah you know i don't really want to

look bad so i want to make i want to get

a chance to try it out to see what

happens

the other side of that is you know it's

performance art you get in there

swim throw you off the boat in the

middle of the lake swim to shore you'll

figure it out if you don't

you'll drown well i'm not going to die

i might be embarrassed but at the same

time i'm 18 years old and i don't really

care

so the we're having fun

we don't care we're doing it for

ourselves

was very infectious didn't ruin me

well i don't think but but at the same

time it was really kind of like

you know we don't need to do a sound

check we know what we're going to do and

it's like you know what

i'm fine with that if this first if you

don't care about the first song

coming off with vocals i'm cool yeah

no did they ever do any soundtracks i

mean even bigger places

some places there were sound checks done

only because it was more of let's get up

and see if we're

you know how we're doing how we're doing

it's not about we're going to give

you the opportunity to actually test out

the equipment it's more about i want to

work on something or

we're going to figure out if this works

because we're going to be so much

further apart

that's you know playing the metro is a

big stage in boston and it has

you know does it fit our and you know

we're

typically tight we kind of want to be

together i mean

having worked around bands and seen

bands for

many many many decades it seems now uh i

i've found that there are some bands

that'll play a club

and they have no idea how to control

their stage volume that which is in a

smaller room

is usually the hardest thing you know it

seems that like people are like it's

like there's a volume war going on

between bass drums or two guitar

players or what you know uh i take it

that

these guys probably didn't worry too

much about their stage volume

no i'm thinking about smaller clocks no

no

but at the same time i mean

part of the reason that that wouldn't

necessarily matter is because it was a

wall to wall

you know playing maxwell's mm-hmm the

room is

not very big right yeah i mean you know

there's a there's an entrance

by the stage it lets you get to the rest

of the space and then it's basically

this narrow teeny little room and it's

like wall-to-wall people so whatever

stage volume was being absorbed right at

the front

right and if i could get vocals over the

top of that i was winning

okay you know that well as much as there

was a desire to have some special

effects

and echoes and certain things on certain

songs

you know it was we were i was very lucky

to

be in the position of beginning a mix

that

was attractive to a lot of people and i

was lucky to basically

you know beat down the stage volume so

now you you said a lot of the insight

to the band came backstage of course

yeah it's worth the majority of time yes

help tell us tell us and again i'm not

looking at as i've said to you

i'm not looking for i don't i don't care

who did drugs i don't care who did stuff

like that because it's like they're rock

and roll man they're supposed to do

drugs it's like

you know if you're gonna unless you can

tell me today where they actually like

sat in the van and

drank tea and read bible quotes then i

want to know that but

but i want to know more about who did

these guys listen to i mean what were

they like what did they joke about what

was that was a running gag that went

with the

you know with the band um the funny side

i mean did they love a certain tv show i

mean was there something

some weird little insights in tv i don't

remember tv being

much of a i don't remember tv being much

at all um who do we listen to who do we

listen to

uh lots of t-rex of course

some robin hitchcock i was exposed to

robin hitchcock i often dream of trains

was played incessantly

um yeah

you know do we listen to a lot of

classic elvis oh yeah really yeah

wow yeah and a bunch of stuff of course

that i would

i wouldn't know you're talking presley

you're not talking right yeah right

yeah really listening to a lot of old

blues and a lot of

old old old er rock and roll at the time

was that coming from jefferson

i don't think so a lot of the selections

were coming from paul

and you know a pile a box of cassettes

you know don't dare put anything in

there that would you wanted to keep

because if it was unlike

it got thrown off the window so you know

make sure that if you

if you're putting something in there you

don't care about it um

yeah there was you know i was exposed

to a lot of music that i

did not know about and found later on in

life to be i'm very appreciative of it i

mean i've seen robin hitchcock

17 times it's just like

i'm so grateful um

the

uh the the dirty laundry stories i i'm

not a dirty laundry kind of guy

that's what i'm saying and i don't

really care about who did drugs either

that stuff doesn't matter to me

what did surprise me was the

the level of um

the threshold of

where i didn't realize that they were

intoxicated but they were

and watching them do you know i i

watched

two of them do 21 tequila poppers with a

liter of 2 liter of 7 up in a bottle and

i'm just

like how can you guys you know how can

you get up and walk

down the hall into the van and get to

the club and actually perform didn't ask

those questions but now when i look back

at it of course i'm like oh my god

you know ten shots of tequila should

kill somebody

i remember jack revan who used to drink

with them

a lot said that he you know he's like i

can hold

down my beers but it's just like it was

four or five to one

with them yeah yeah yes um that was and

that was a little bit of surprise to me

i was like you know i've

i'd heard that you know there's crazy

stuff going on and you know in the rock

and roll world and of course i expect to

see some of it but

when i actually kind of calculate it i'm

just like wow and you're not talking big

guys either i mean

no no tommy were pretty damn skinny

right

chris wasn't big bob was the big bob was

big but yeah i mean

all of them were you know starving

musicians as it were

um oh wow

um there's a horse walking by outside um

the

the only other thing is that you know

once again this is like a family camping

trip it's it's not a great analogy but

it really is like that it's like you

know if we don't get the shower for a

few days that's just how it is

when you're 18 it doesn't seem to matter

you know nowadays it's a different thing

for me but you know

i don't think i saw bob take off his

shoes

for many days in a row he would sleep in

bed with his shoes on

he would well bob was an interesting

character and i miss him dearly

he did some strange stuff his

personal body functions were no longer

personal which was a very

interesting observation but once again

you know i'm i'm very young i'm like is

this what it's supposed to be like

i've seen opera and everybody's

professional and i've seen the rock and

roll world and it's completely the

opposite

is this normal or is it not normal yeah

and so it is it was kind of a eye-opener

but at the same time i was like yeah

well that's how it's supposed to be

it's a big deal so if if it's a family

trip

who's the mom who's the paw who's the

the the weird uncle who's the

bretty kid who's the weird uncle well um

who's the weird uncle it was not i

shouldn't say it was a family camping

trip it was more like

a rejects of the boy scouts camping trip

that's kind of a bad way to put it but

that's

who's the weird uncle it was not i

shouldn't say it was a family camping

trip it was more like

a rejects of the boy scouts

camping trip and that's kind of a bad

way to put it but that's

but but that gets you where you at it's

like there's the crazy uncle or

or the i want to be the good uncle yeah

taking every all the boys out for

jefferson that's jespersen okay

who's you know like i'm gonna i gotta

call your moms so

don't get out of the van yeah we're okay

we're doing great thanks bye i mean of

course that didn't happen but

that's kind of where it was paul was

paul was

i wouldn't say sullen but just kind of

introspective and kind of thinking about

things

and working in his mind and tommy and

bob and chris were

going crazy and you know to the point of

well so as an example of a story

uh after have having done several shows

that spring that summer

uh i was given the opportunity as it was

or not to go out

to iowa with the band they had to play

an outdoor festival

outdoor somewhere in ames iowa was

probably the campus there and we played

outdoors

on the way there

of course a lot of uh alcohol was

consumed actually in

the van when it was being driven um

that was not illegal at that time uh

and uh it wasn't all the reason you

couldn't drink it

you know the the pent-up energy that

occurred

when taking long road trips um you know

we have to be there at a certain time no

we can't stop no we've got to keep going

so you know me as the straight guy who's

driving is like i'm sorry guys

open the door piss out the side we can't

stop we got to get to the club or we got

to get to the gig

we just don't have time

that happened repeatedly so on a

particular trip down to ames

uh i i distinctly remember there being

some kind of wrestling match going on in

the back

and of course the door flying open and

stuff's starting to fly out the side of

the van

beer bottles or cans or trash or

whatever it might be

and then this person's shirt and then

this person's pants and this person's

pants and this person's shirt and of

course now they're all in their skivvies

and i'm the one driving of course i have

my clothes on still

and there was no concern of we could die

i mean we can't we can't die nothing

will happen right

i'll be able to recover from whatever

kind of stuff you do to me so go ahead

and try to take my clothes off and they

did

they actually did and they actually got

my clothes off and threw them out the

window so now we're all

driving down the road with no clothes on

and this is a day gig we're not really

expecting to be staying overnight

yeah a fascinating no suitcases no no

no we're going down for the day we're

going to play the gig we're going to

drive back that night

and yeah i mean it's just like and that

what did you do um

bob probably just played this underwear

yeah bob went through with it

i um

honestly i don't recall what we did we

did end up actually getting

some clothing and we did actually end up

uh getting into trouble with the law in

that particular event also

and you know and those kinds of things

were if once the once the energy

was to a certain level or the rowdiness

or the craziness or whatever you want to

call it once the energy was a certain

level that would carry

forward into performance and even after

performance and then

whatever the next day might bring so and

that's kind of where once things got

out of hand i understand it's a terrible

term because it wasn't really out of

hand it was just once things got to kind

of a crazy level

that just kept going you know you egged

me on i ag you on and we just keep kind

of ratching it

up you know as as you mentioned it's

like a five to one

yeah i can outdo you i can always outdo

you

watch this yeah crazy

do you remember what the was the trouble

with the law a frequent thing

um

well the trouble with the any any

trouble with the law was

typically very incidental based speeding

open bottle trouble on stage

etc yeah um i can distinguish number

three uh

i can distinctly remember three events

one is this uh ames show where

we were playing bob got pissed off about

something

do not know what and destroyed his wedge

monitor in front of him

and the the sound company furious comes

to me and says hey

i need you to pay for that it's going to

be 200 or whatever the number was and

i'm like

i don't have any cash i've got nothing

i've got a credit card

that i can buy gas with on the way home

i'm expecting you to get a check

from the venue what can i do i can't do

anything about it

he called the police and the police

surrounded our van

and would not let us leave because we

hadn't paid for this

and it came down to me negotiating with

the person saying look

my word that we will pay you for this

i will personally pay you for this we

don't have any cash we've got nothing on

us

you're welcome to do whatever you'd like

but we're just going to stay here

because we've got nothing else we can do

we did get out of that without without

too much difficulty but

you could see the glee in the eyes of

the

sheriff baseball cap hoping to do

something with these

hooligans yeah um one more story on the

uh the police driving in downtown

chicago

not knowing what i was looking for at

the time um

and unbeknownst to me of course there

was open bottles in the back

of the van i had no idea

um we got pulled over

and you know chicago police the fine

gentleman that they are

realized our predicament when when

when i got out of the van i was driving

when i got to the van and

uh carlson got out of the van tom

carlson got out of the van

uh we were both taken to the back of the

squad car and

we're told basically here's the

situation you guys have an open bottle

there's probably drugs in your van we

don't even have to go in it to know

that this is you're going to be in huge

trouble you're a long ways from home

you're going to have to come back be

arraigned then you're gonna have to come

back

and you're gonna have to go to court and

you're gonna have to you know who knows

what's gonna happen there and when they

find you guilty because it's obvious

you're gonna have to serve some time

so we're gonna let you guys think about

this for a few minutes and we're going

to go back and take a look in the van

and they reached through the little open

window and opened up the little

cigarette holder in the back of their

seat

and then got out of their car and we

we're in the back of the car and tom

carlson looks at me and goes how much

money you got and

like 20 bucks or whatever and he's like

okay i got it i got a little more let's

put let's put the money in

and we'll close this and we'll be out of

this and i'm looking at him like

what are you talking about

and lo and behold they came back they

saw the little thing was closed they

opened the thing up and they said

gentlemen thank you so much enjoy

chicago

and they let us go and

and that's that's the kind of

education i got not that i could always

bribe a cop

not that i could you know ever

probably get away with anything like

that ever again in my life but

that was kind of the seat of your pants

quick thinking make sure you

make it up because it's if you're not

making it who's going to make it up

i mean to me and it's like everyone i've

talked to it's like i mean

if you look up that i'll use a complete

if you look at rock and roll in the

dictionary you should see the picture of

these four guys

i agree that is they embodied

what the rock and roll spirit is which i

mean because to me i hate there's

nothing more i hate to rock and roll

with like like shows and someone hits

their mark and it's like that's not

[ __ ] rock and roll it's like i'm

seeing a broadway play

it's opera yeah you know i mean you know

it's a musical and it's like it's like

the chaos is is you know it is what i

think

is part of well a big part of their

charm you know and

why people you know well why do people

go

to watch race car driving

why for what purpose

i mean watching somebody go around the

track you know

there's a lot of skill involved in it

don't get me wrong i'm impressed

by somebody who can actually sit in a

car for several hours

with you know incredible g-force and

incredible concentration

but from a spectator's point of view

what's the point yeah they're going

around in a circle

but there i think there there's that

glimmer of hope that something crazy is

going to happen

it's the crash it's the excitement of

the moment whatever it might be

that is kind of where you know as i said

my friends asked me so what happened

yeah it's like well they played a gig

well i mean i think the thing with the

mats is that if

they didn't crash well your alternative

way you're going to see the greatest

rock and roll band ever play if you play

a great show right so it was it was

it was it was a win-win situation i mean

it was no matter what you were seeing i

mean i

i actually have enjoyed both kinds of

shows you know uh i mean

you put it under my head i probably

would i would probably absolutely pick

the

the the play the songs you know kind of

you know show with a few covers thrown

in as opposed to complete opposite but

um see i would pick this up exactly the

opposite i i mean

the [ __ ] hits the fans tape is the

quintessential show for me

where they get on stage and they ask for

what to be played and

somebody always yells out customer or

[ __ ] school and then it's like

yeah maybe but you know if you threw out

something crazy that

you know clambake or who knows what it

might be and

they it sparks something in one of them

and they just start doing it and they

all fall in together

and they kind of pick it up and they

play you know the first verse in the

first chorus and then it falls apart

that to me is what rock and roll is

and that to me is where the magic

occurred with that band

it wasn't the fact that they could put

together great songs they could do that

but lots of bands can do that it's very

difficult for a band to be willing to

fall flat in their face

and get up and do it again and again and

again that right there is what makes me

go

these guys are great okay that you bring

up uh

should hit the van that's you have a

good story about that because i don't

think it wouldn't exist without you

okay i'll accept that and i'm

i don't have a large ego that i'm aware

of but i might

um the story behind it

is we're coming home from uh

for a sake of argument an extended run

across the country and we're playing

oklahoma and we stop

at this place and

or at lincoln nebraska i'm sorry i may

be confused here in any case

we're playing a place that is pretty

much

wound down spring break is either

occurring or it's right around when

there's nobody in this particular

college town and this particular

location happens to have

nobody visiting it so there's very very

few people in the audience

and if you listen to the tape you can

hear paul asks for the people to move

closer

they don't gotta but he really wants it

to be more intimate because they really

enjoyed that

wall of people in front of them they're

sweating the audience waiting

they really preferred that anyway

uh i'm playing i'm mixing the show

and this particular location is a big

square room

and has a balcony above me and i decide

that i'm going to

walk around and listen to the show and

see what i hear

and i walk up and you know any time

a show is being recorded you know the

objective is to stop that from occurring

bootlegging is not acceptable

we're taking that and i happen to

confiscate this tape from this guy

you know where it ends is where it ends

beautifully

um and we listen to it on the way home

and while we're listening to it chris

it starts to draw a drawing that

he it turns into the cover art for uh

for the cassette and

we get back to minneapolis and i've

got this cassette we i give it to steve

felstad

he masters it over to on to some bigger

tape

and then from there i get the cassette

back and when i get it back it's being

listened to by paul and gets a little

actual erasure in it and it's uh

it's a story where i'm i mean

my part is pretty insignificant i mean

all honesty it's i happened to pick up a

cassette from somebody who was making a

tape of the show

and it happens to sound really good

you know that just it just it just

happened what do you remember what kind

of cassette recorder you would have been

using to even get a decent sound

uh i don't think it was necessarily the

recorder i believe it was the particular

location where this

where this particular person was i mean

obviously he was using some

better end equipment right um but he was

just dumping it to a cassette

and you know what max elka said is what

a maxell case is that

the last song just cuts off yes because

that's right i open it up and pull it

out

wow okay because it's just like this

just literally like 11 or 14 seconds or

something of the last

right there and it's like yeah yeah so

yeah so

i mean what whether you was that the

very end of the show i mean was there

more so no there was more songs after

that

okay yeah and and that that particular

show i mean what the energy in that

was down even though it may not sound

like it in the particular show

the energy of that event was down not a

lot of audience which always makes it

down

and tired the guys are tired

um we get back to minneapolis i think

there's a break for

a week or two weeks and during that time

is when decided to put this cassette out

and

i don't know how long it took to

actually duplicate and start

distributing the cassette but

it you know it

there isn't a lot of magic behind it

it's just a story and i'm

i don't want to make this sound like

it's not a big deal because to some

people it's a huge deal

i mean it is one of those things where

you just happen to be at the right place

at the right time doing the right band

and you happen to see the wrong guy

doing the wrong thing and you take it

from him

and also i mean really when does a

record label put out their own bootleg

i've never really heard of that before i

mean now it's it's you i mean now it is

do it all the time i mean they're

they're putting out you know their

official bootleg recordings so so and so

you know

right pearl jam bob dylan but it's like

here you had and

weren't they all distributed free to

press yes i believe they were right so i

mean you basically had a record label

giving away a bootleg which was

sort of went with the band right right

right you know

um but i don't know if this was the same

tour

there is a legendary story uh i mean bob

has done a lot of things on stage

there's a legendary san diego show which

i thought might have been the letter b

tour okay

where bob decided to play completely

stark naked except for his guitar

okay that that isn't the only time but

okay

and someone supposedly during guitar

solo threw a sneaker at him

he caught it urinated in it threw it

back to the crowd and finished the solo

oh my god i haven't heard that story

okay um but it would not surprise me if

it was true i didn't know if you just

happened

i would love for you if you would say oh

yeah i was there oh i wish i could say

that i was i would remember that

um no but that's very much like what bob

would do

i mean he was about going beyond

to show you that you know you can

you can dare me to do anything and i

will do it i i actually want to do a

quick

cut exactly it's like you're trying to

make you obviously want to make some

lighter moments and it's like i want to

do a quick cut

of like what bob is wearing and just cut

to people just saying tutu about a

wedding dress

what were some of the weird things you

ever saw him wear on stage

uh dr

seuss leotard you know the white

cat in the hat white and red stripes i

mean that's

you know

i mean that's that's he was he was red

converse all stars not high tops

sometimes

high tops um which would turned out to

be more black than red because they were

so dirty

he never took them off as i mentioned

before it's like he would sleep

in his clothes all the time and i

i i never saw him take a shower which is

i mean i'm not that i'm you know worried

about that but it's like

wow that's just he's just

he was just so focused on his

his universe and his universe uh

didn't involve certain components of

self-awareness i think that's an

appropriate way to put that maybe

any other interesting outfits oh let's

see what else did he wear

the tutu is the one that i love the most

so i really i can just see that one in

my mind

he wore a cape several times um

and i i don't know where that came from

or where he got that

like a superman kind of game kind of

like a superman cape but i was

but not red and i can't see the color

but i can see that he was wearing

i can see my mind wearing this cape

yeah he he he was about the he was about

the performance he was about

i'm gonna perform for myself and

and be what i'm going to be is there's

something behind me

oh yeah well i mean my goat and a horse

running around

um what in chickens oh yeah they're i

got a bunch of

animals we have a bunch of animals

that's like

it's like completely yeah here i am

touring the rock and roll band and i'm

out with a farm

it's kind of crazy um

that tour and again i'm not sure if it's

a there's so many shows that people talk

about but if you i'm i'm just want to

bring up a few of the ones that

people drive a lot city gardens

in new jersey were you but whole surfers

opened up for i believe so yes and

uh that was the show where on the way

home uh the guy who promoted the show

badmouthed the band on the radio and you

guys were listening to it on the radio

i do recall that okay let's let's talk

about that all right this show is this

is one of those great

i have five different versions of this

show

so if you'd love to have it from someone

who's in the van um

okay first off was it a completely drunk

and obnoxious show or what yes

it was okay yes this is uh

and of course it's all somewhat of a

blur of which you know

how much they drink before this show

versus this show versus this show um

this is a show that i recall there being

a lot of drinking before there were

actually

i believe two opening acts in that

particular event but all surfers

and i do not recall the other band um

and i recall being not long not

a normal length event

um

stumbling drunk i guess which didn't

happen often

um and i get what i mean by stumbling

drunk is that

not you know not physically not unable

but

and then to me the stumbling drunk a

stumbling drunk show would have been

where they couldn't

sink together they couldn't put it

together for them to each other you know

like

if chris can't connect up with tommy

then

it isn't a song that to that point of

them all being intoxicated to that level

that's what that show is about that show

us about i'm going to see

we're going to see how far we can go and

it could be just because they didn't get

on stage for so long or it could be just

because they didn't give a rat's

ass or whatever happened the night

before

right right unknown where those that

that came from

um a lot of times there was other

besides alcohol there was other stuff

involved

and it could be that that wasn't

involved in that particular night so the

energy was different

um i don't have you know i i can't

recall anything other than them not

connecting and not

really from my perspective gelling the

way i think they would have gelled it in

better

better performance not because it was

bad right right but it wasn't

to me it wasn't as memorable because it

wasn't as much

camaraderie now

so you had this show do you remember

anything about the promoter being

randy ellis was the promoter i

i don't remember anything about him

being upset at the venue

right i mean because there was no you

know no fisticuffs

which could have easily happened if bob

had gotten involved

um so they're you know that

yeah i'm i don't recall there being

anything bad blood at the show but at

the same time it's like he ex

he may have expected i'm not just as

pure conjecture he may have expected

something

to occur and you know the fact that they

didn't

do as long a performance may have done

something for him

i mean i you know i don't know that part

because i didn't see that right

now so you're driving home in the van

and you put on whatever radio station it

is

and you hear the promoter call in

complaining about

how horrible this show was

what's the reaction

i think the reaction from uh

some members of the of the some

participants in the van

was probably disregard and

i mean because honestly the whole don't

care attitude

was pretty pervasive i think that

uh to heart it probably hurt a lot

and paul was very private he didn't

share that kind of you know did he

really want to be loved and liked and

get approval or did he not he appeared

like he didn't care

and i think a lot of times he didn't

care because of anger not because

you know he was he

said i don't care because he didn't want

to show that he really did care

was throwing truth to

the ban the you guys pulling over and uh

one of the guys that might have been

westbrook i don't know

uh calling up jesperson and telling him

about this and breaking up

no okay no that i'm not aware of

because at that particular well no i

don't not that i'm not

don't know that that's true or not okay

okay um

did you mention fisty cups

could have happened were there a lot of

fights with promoters who were like what

the [ __ ] did you guys just give me and

i'm not paying you for that or

whatever the

the all of that kind of transaction

would occurred

outside of my purview only because i

shouldn't say

that that transaction if somebody you

know if i was to be the one who would be

paid

then i would be the one who went and

said your promoter time to give me the

check

i'm sorry you're pissed off blah blah

blah and

or that would have been peter or some

other person at that time um

if it were in my purview then i would

have definitely

seen that and i've seen but i and i

haven't seen

bob get in the face of any promoter i've

seen him get in the face of

well the iowa show i get in the face of

the sound

gentlemen and and security there and

just being obnoxious

i hadn't seen edmonds never saw him got

in front of get in front of uh

any of the okay any of the promoters

directly

but it may have been outside my privy

too because a lot of things do occur

come backstage i want to you know give

you a line and talk a little bit

now um were you on the road with the ban

uh with the band when rj smith was

following along doing the piece for

village voice

i believe the answer is yes okay

um because he talks at length in his

article about

uh what i believe was and was it an

iowa show something some place i thought

it was iowa

where uh ban was not known to

play and majority of people started

leaving

and westwork looked out into the

audience and said something effective

i see there's still a few of you here we

haven't done our jobs yet and they

proceeded to play

worse worse i mean do you remember

anything or is that i mean is that

that was that more than a that happened

more than once i mean well in

a and we played a lot of outdoor events

that particular summer and that was

the don't care attitude of more of like

i'm gonna do this for myself or

we're gonna do this for ourselves oh

you're still here we must be doing

something wrong

i mean i i can see that occurring uh

there were several outdoor shows des

moines uh

maybe you can see the rapids iowa where

we played

whatever the campus might have been

whatever the festival might have been

and you know as loud as they could make

it

as loud as they could make it trying to

push people

i wouldn't say push people away but they

definitely did have a

i would disregard maybe

a disregard for the audience um yeah

no it was it was a um

i think it's in there yeah yeah um yeah

it was uh

did it okay i mean

did the disregard though i mean was

there ever a point in time

that you saw where

hey we got to sell records or these

people are buying tickets these people

are

paying for us to be here i

that was never ever talked about

publicly no discussion in the van

you know the internal arguments between

peter and paul maybe that was the case

but i think that and i you have to

confirm this with others

but i think that the i think peter was

conflicted

because of exactly what we think of

being as rock and roll and

commercialism and this is so against

commercialism

but it's so beautiful um

yeah we need to sell records yeah we

need to sell tickets

people are coming to see something right

after a certain line

you know college radio plays lots of

replacement songs and people are like oh

my god i really want to see

somebody i want to see him perform i

will there i've got to go see that i'm

going to go see that

and of course then they wouldn't play it

because it was the hit

yeah so there was a disregard with

connecting to the audience that wanted

to see them perform the art that they

have created on record

they were a live band that was more

about let's have fun doing stuff live

the disconnect that occurred

yeah i don't think that they realized

that there was a

a point at which they really should have

if they were going to do craziness you

know

sprinkle it with some sanity right

right be crazy but still play the hit

right at the end of the night for the

encore or whatever

right yeah but of course when you're

using when you're using substances to

get

beyond control it's hard to pull back

into control and play

something straight through so um

yeah i think that the people who wanted

to see the show be crazy

which the audience may have been mixed

50 50. i want to see the band

playing a tutu where i want to see the

band get completely naked i want to see

tommy smash into the audience i want to

see paul just wailing screaming

and playing covers versus the person who

says i love

westerberg songwriting and i want to see

him you know do weight or

whatever whatever they're going to play

this is i i just wanted i just wanted to

find those i

have the piece here with the um with the

with the uh

here we go it was in ohio

was that show actually was it kent falls

ohio did you that sound

kent falls um

kent state kent state is i don't know if

kent state's outside of columbus or not

yeah

okay because he played it in kent ohio

yes in kent ohio okay yeah

we i have fond memories of columbus but

uh i do not recall kent

but strong possibility

yeah where it's just in paul like just

like saying we can do this all night

you know it's just not like being

obnoxious but it was it was i

just remember like this story was so

vivid i mean it seemed like to be the

one

it was the one thing that ended the

piece you know we're gonna try to talk

to rj as well

okay the you know the

thinking about doing you know today

musicians will do in-store appearances

or actually just do a tour of in-stores

whatever they might do um you know

the band didn't like to do that they

didn't like to do radio they didn't like

to do any of the promotional component

that goes to actually promoting having a

show

um you know they kind of expected to be

able to just walk into a facility

whatever that facility might be whether

it's you know a

7th street entry size place where they

can only hold 200 people or

maxwell's or some small place or a big

place

palladium whatever it might be they just

be able to expect to walk in

and do what they're going to do and if

the audience likes it great and if they

don't

they don't the

i i there was a record store called

school kids records that

uh was in columbus and this isn't

anything of a big story but i distinctly

remember there being a big connection

there between them that record store and

a few blocks away a small club

i honestly do not remember the name of

the club i could drive you there

uh in any case you know watching

you know in that particular environment

the the magic

of maybe having 200 people 300 people in

the audience and seeing

x on stage with the replacements

you know that's the thing for me that

makes me go

i i love this band i love the ability

that they can get on stage and they can

actually if they care to

make it real make it very artistic make

it a performance

and they they did that at the same time

they were

more about they were just more about

having a fun time

now what was the reaction i mean

you're you're on let it be tour and that

bee is getting crazy reviews

i mean you know village voice yeah games

chris coghill is an

a plus you know names it second best

record of the year after springsteen's

born in usa which

seems silly now but um he he stands by

it but

i you know i really wanted to like say

when i said i said would you change your

mind today and he's like no i'd still

stand by i really wanted to take him

really come on it's your chance to make

it right

but you know um but i mean

really i mean it's crazy reviews for

this record and

how are we on time oh all right let's

let us switch tapes before i ask another

question

a while and i'm really intrigued by

it's appropriate use i mean basically

it's

you're getting a sense of the character

of this person

by the you know the sum of all the parts

right

and that's kind of an interesting

thought it's like if the person

is only giving us a little snippet

each time and they can actually have a

consistent voice a novel then it becomes

exactly so

there's a there's a thing there that you

know it's being made into a feature film

it's a book too it's a memoir oh i had

no idea they just they just saw that

two weeks ago that's so wrong it's the

medium it's like waiting for the next

piece that's what's part of the love of

it you know yeah

but unfortunately a lot of times they

just don't see that you know i mean

well because sweets don't sell and

ticket sales or movie theaters are 20

bucks a piece so it makes a lot of sense

to do that

you were going to ask me a question

about something and i now completely

forgot what it was

do you remember what it was i have no

idea what do you guys remember

we finished talking about uh columbus

we had a question what was the last

thing we've done and then we stopped the

last thing was at 53 minutes so around

like 50 seconds before we turn the tape

off and it was uh

quote in my words the magic of seeing

prolific performances

uh but they were at the same time more

about fun

and that's what kicked out that's when i

kicked out okay well

uh it'll probably either come to me or

maybe this is well let's just let's just

continue on

and uh are you guys crushed for time you

gotta go see terry

what's happening okay oh and we already

ate lunch i have to

uh i have to stop at about 3 30 because

i gotta oh

um let's talk about uh

the way it ended for me yeah

horrible i know but it hadn't ended

horrible for a bunch of people at that

point i mean

everything i'm i've definitely heard

i've heard horrible things about the way

to let go of

jespersen as well now don't forget bob i

mean um

so how did it tell us about your um it

was jespersen who

said we won't need you anymore

when was this this was december

something 24 some somewhere we played a

show at first avenue was my last

performance with them was december of

84.

and i had

i wasn't close to the band uh

i wasn't their friend from high school

or whatever and i wasn't

as a i wasn't a trusted uh confidante of

paul's or anybody so i was pretty close

to chris

um tommy was a young guy and he i'm

sorry that's right the answer machine

got that

uh it will but it'll rain several times

i'll wait until it's done

let it just uh sorry five minutes of

rolling

so my relationship with them was not

super close

uh i was pretty close to chris and

uh tommy was a young guy and an angry

young guy

you know he was angry with everybody

um i you know not that i was doing

anything wrong but you know maybe

i couldn't do anything right for him um

and bob was not a scary character but he

was

kind of unusual and i didn't necessarily

connect with him

um i knew and respected peter a lot

because he was

an adult when i was not though we're not

that far apart in age actually

um and you know

it really i really wasn't

you know connected to them emotionally

so i really was just a hired hand which

is

perfectly acceptable um

yeah i got i got the notice from peter

that you know you're done we're gonna

we've got this guy that we're gonna

bring in and

you know he's gonna take over now and

i'm just like i was really kind of

devastated

and it wasn't that i was losing this

great paying gig

finally you know during the last parts

of this year

i kind of got an idea that this was

something really big but at the same

time i still was not really aware it was

like

you know when you when you've got a job

that's paying you great money you think

it's going to last forever

and things are never going to get worse

they're going to get better from here on

out and of course

that doesn't ever occur what occurs is

that you know

there's a setback or the rug gets pulled

out from underneath you

so there was a lot of frustration

you know and if i had known there there

was any frustration with my performance

i definitely would have tried to improve

that

honestly i don't know why that why the

change occurred

it could have been something from

the band it could have been something

from a record label was it when

was this when they signed the sire there

was

uh there was it was near that time frame

i don't know exactly when the signing

desire occurred but there was we had you

know done that whole fall

in new york and what in the east coast

trying to make sure that we got in front

of everybody and

there could have been you know it's it's

the classic it happened to me actually

that kind of story has happened to me

repeatedly um

you know hey i got this relationship the

recording studio let's put a demo

together

see what we can do i'll do it on spec or

i'll do it you know i'll do a reduced

rate

the next deal we'll do we'll do a better

deal and i'll get more out of you or

whatever and then of course the next

deal that comes along because of the

work that was done in the first deal

the record company the promoter the

agent the whoever it is says well i've

got this guy i want you to work with

you know you can't work with the guy you

worked with last time so

that happens repeatedly in the industry

yeah you can't work for free now to get

something later because there later

never comes that's how it goes

no hard feelings about any of that

though because it is you know i

i was given an incredible gift

unbeknownst to me at the time

and now i look back and go wow you know

that's really cool i mean my

my son is in school telling people that

you know when he's wearing his

replacement shirt it's like my dad work

with this band

and every all the other kids are wearing

led zeppelin shirts and it's like

you know he understands he understands

did

were you surprised uh a year later or so

when you heard that

bob was tossed in the van i was not at

all

because there was friction between bob

and paul

there was always friction between bob

and paul i mean was there was

was there was there friction that went

beyond forget the drugs and the alcohol

was there friction that went beyond that

i mean was there something else

musically

perhaps or the sound of a banner the

direction of the band

i won't say sound of the band it could

be direction of the band

you know once again bob was about doing

his own performance

bob was about i'm going to wear what i

want to wear i'm going to not wear what

i'm not going to wear i'm going to do

what i'm going to do

and he hits his cues if there were you

know cues to be had you're going to do

the solo here he's going to hit that

stuff

but he's not ratcheting

it ratcheting it up and that just is

because the band is aging

you know the band is getting older the

boys are getting older

they're thinking more about long term

they can see longer turns into the

future

and they can see that you know either on

a path of destruction or on a path to

glory or on a path to success or freedom

or whatever we're on a path for

and in order for me to you know

completely speaking out of turn here in

order for me to further myself

i need to surround myself with people

who want to go down that same path

and i can see that i could see early on

that

there wasn't the clash of the wills and

direction or control of the band it was

more on

you just want to do your own thing and

we can't each do our own thing together

not that that gets the answer you're

looking for but that's kind of what i

saw

early early on was was there

was there uh much conflict in terms

of i mean you hear a lot of about the

conflict where like

paul liked doing the ballots the

answering machines and so are they

and the rest of the band usually would

pick on them because of it and because

they you know bob

obviously wanted to be doing dose of

thunder

i think that there there was some

friction there because of that i mean

they're a rock and roll band so let's

play rock and roll

and you know we don't want to be journey

and do these beautiful ballads what the

hell that's not what we're doing right

the yeah of course there's friction

because of that um

there is a lot to be said for what

actually occurred

outside of the performance meaning what

was recorded

you know if a recording occurred where

you know

it's paul playing all the guitars and

you know answering machine's a great

example you know just playing guitars

and singing the song

what's the man doing right it isn't us

it's you

and of course that you know when they're

young and their egos are fragile

that really becomes a big problem and it

can accelerate really quickly you hurt

my feelings i'm not going to say you

hurt my feelings what i'm going to do is

i'm just going to be obnoxious on stage

were they underwriting musicians i'm

sorry were they underrated

underrated was tommy a better bass

player than probably people thought or

any it's in down the line uh

i think that they were underrated

musicians only because people

didn't see them perform as well as they

could if they were

you know if they were just going to sit

down and actually play and not be

hammered

yeah they're incredible you know chris

has a lot of energy and

you know it's like anything if you try

it's gonna be better than if you don't

try right right right if you hit the

drums

versus letting the drums be hit and

that's really what it comes down to if

you're gonna sing open your mouth if

you're gonna

strum the guitar make sure that people

can hear that you're strumming the

guitar

and and that's where you know once

they're

once substance got into the

mix then of course it was we're you know

we know we can do this without even

thinking about it we're just having fun

doing what we're doing

when he was trying how good a guitar

player was bob simpson

um

i can't compare him to other guitar

players i'm not a guitar player myself

so i don't know

you know his chops i would say that his

consistency

was amazing and that's

you know that's a lot to be said for

somebody because if you

are very affluent in whatever your

particular instrument might be or

whatever your particular discipline

might be

you explore the other pieces of that

discipline in order to

to be self-satisfied you know if you're

gonna

you know if you're writing a story

you're gonna write from the first person

third person if you're

you know painting you're going to use

acrylics and you're going to use oils if

you're writing

you know writing a song first you're

going to try something in a rockabilly

style and then you're going to try

something in

you know 404 style whatever it might be

you're going to change it up

because you're bored with doing it the

same way you've done it for the last

five years or 25 years whatever it might

be the fact that he could

hit the same kind of emotion nightly

was really incredible and the fact that

he would do it

intoxicated is also incredible

you know it's it's and i wouldn't say

that that you know

substance equated artistic creative

creativity

substance was just a piece of who he was

right and

you know that i think he could have done

just as well and did just as well

without substance

or without substance abuse i should say

because he was out there was obviously a

lot of emotional substance there

the band from uh okay you're mexican man

the band was known for being out of tune

a lot or tuning

let's let's talk about i mean tell us

any interesting tuning stories or lack

of tuning stories

um well i think the only reason the band

was out of tune is because it

you know just like anything else they

beat the [ __ ] out of their equipment

you know it's like we're you know i

can't hear myself my

amp doesn't go any louder i got to play

harder

you know which of course destroys the

guitars tuning that's just what happens

right um so yeah i i'm i don't have any

incredible tuning stories

uh you might want to talk to sullivan

he was on stage more than i was on stage

so he might be able to go yeah whatever

there's this story about tuning or

whatever

um but paul also you know as as a writer

he definitely did his own tunings he

would you know change his tunings in his

guitars in order to get certain types of

sounds or

just you know to play the chords in a

different way at one point probably it

was around that chord he started

discovering the open tuning yes he would

do did a lot of open tunings

yeah which of course for somebody who's

a musician and uh what might be

back up paul is probably a musician's

musician more than he's

a performer for the general audience

and and i'm a big fan of daniel noir and

he's a musician's musician also and i

you know watching him play guitar

is wonderful um you know he's got

a very strong gift of doing sustained

long melodies and big open sounds

i don't know where paul picked that up

where he picked up open tuning and where

he decided that he was going to change

up how he was

delivering but his

when he did that musicians in the

audience are like oh wow i want to

see what's going on here of course

trying to see that through the chaos of

fast performance and see that through

the chaos of substances and

drugs and alcohol and all the craziness

that's going on

so there was that artistic component in

there or that self-creative component

that was

mixed on top of or mixed underneath

chaos

one of the people one of the groups that

we actually talked to was this

girl band called the bristols i'm not

familiar i'm sorry not for me

at the time because i know they toured

with the band a lot okay

did they give you a time frame i thought

it was

around let it be but it might have been

an early

pre-let it be okay uh because i know

they did a bunch of tours in them

and uh i just didn't know if you would

have any no okay i didn't know if that

was that was in your period

um were there any

were there how did the replacements get

along with the bands that either opened

or they opened four

um that they opened for

well we when i was working with them we

did an extensive run with x and we did

a few coincidental

events with rem and once again that's

kind of a musician's musician's

really relationship there right and as i

mentioned before you know

watching them on stage watching xzine

and john doe

and watching them on stage together

and it's a small club with the stage is

barely bigger than this table

is just that's what i live for i want to

see that

um so there was a lot of respect that

went each way there you know i think

that

more successful bands you know if you're

opening for somebody you're probably

working with who's more successful than

you are

they looked upon the replacements as

these guys are

doing they're they're doing what they

want to do

they have no path they're boundless

they're going wherever they want to go

and they're doing what they want to do

did we make a mistake by deciding we're

going to kind of

do this straight up and actually deliver

the same performance every night with a

fixed set list

not that they're not that these bands

are second guessing themselves because

they have their success in their own way

right there was respect from the

headlining acts

towards the band because of that no

holds barred rock and roll because i

know

both axine and john doe were big fans

and then there was a

an article uh where they were uh

did was it spin it was uh in matter

magazine

it was uh people of the year trying to

picking like who they

was their favorite and both of them

picked replacements

yeah in peace and which i thought was

really nice they were trying to get a

hold of them before when we go out to la

okay

um then okay rem rem obviously

had a connection with this band i mean

because i mean the first time i said

replacements they were opening for

ariema toads

okay in new haven um which was probably

83 but i was wearing a dress

um and uh

the loudest most obnoxious band i've

ever seen in my life i had no idea what

i was saying you have no idea what

you're saying and you went there to see

ram yeah

okay yeah and we were literally up

against do you remember you remember

toads

i have i've the most recent memory of

toads is that it was closed

because i was there on a monday and they

are not open one days um

because i was there in the uh early the

early decade

to for my for business um i haven't been

to toads for

since then for 20 something years so the

stage probably comes to about here but

we were literally

pressed against the stage against stage

and you know this yeah

and that was already it was an early

tour so it's probably around

right after murmur came out okay so um

you know and this this band comes out

and i just i i

don't think i fully appreciated what i

was seeing it was just it was literally

just

so unbearably loud and unbearably

it was just this like it was just i mean

you're here's the rem which is such like

jingly and pretty and

you know roger win kind of guitars right

and it was it was just it was just noise

and drunkenness and

and yeah it was like well and i don't

so that's the problem with there's too

many bands and not enough clubs or

whatever the

the problem is is that there's just

there's not enough exposure for a lot of

bands

in any case you know who do you who do

you pair up with ram or who do you pair

with replacements because they

as much as they're both popular college

bands and they both got albums in the

charts

that doesn't mean that they go well

together right right and

you know when i was

very young and i went to see concerts

it's like i just didn't even want to see

the opening acts i didn't want to be

exposed to that because i came to see

this thing over here so sometimes the

opening act

really surprises you totally definitely

let's go this way i'm not doing a

documentary on rem

you know it's like you're right you know

right 27 years later that you know

there is there is that and you know

from a consumer's point of view i would

say that it might be difficult for them

to

be an opening act because they aren't

they aren't glossy

yeah it's very gritty it's very edged

it's sometimes even painful or

embarrassing to watch if you're

expecting to see something and you see

something completely different it's like

what is this guy doing on stage in

address yeah

um so so then you know then move it down

the road

another year in in trenton and you've

got you know the butthole surfer is

opening up

and you know that looks completely

chaotic compared to

this professional man the replacements

you know it's yeah

i remember i saw uh my god

uh uncle tupelo opened for someone at

toads

and it was for to play it was true yeah

and 87 it would have been 87.88

nine was it it was the 89 88 or 89 so

was that last show with through

toads okay and um

uncle tubal came out and they were

basically what the replacements were

when i saw ram open this hardcore

sounding band

no joke but one of the hardest punk

bands i had ever seen

and then i go and buy the record i was

like it's pretty what the [ __ ] is this

i literally i bought the record thinking

i think i called you up i said

is this the same man we saw i mean it's

like we were there right i wasn't that

i'd seen them

i think that like actually was like i'm

like who is it it was like it was like

complete

well okay so that was a perfect example

of the complete opposite of life

right what are you expecting yeah i mean

and that's kind of

part of you know whether the energy was

on the record or not

yeah um well let's just say that the

energy was on the record for the

replacements

they could definitely mimic that yeah

they could mimic it or they had the same

energy live because it was nearly almost

recorded live

um and then from the opposite

perspective of when i see a band that's

highly produced and i'm a huge pop fan i

love highly produced music

when i see a produced band live i'm

expecting it to be kind of subdued or

less than

the performance this was one right i

didn't really know about uncle two below

much and that you know and

and there was such a rocking band and

then i go

the first album is so mellow it sounds

you know it's so

country and it was just it was just like

i it just

i i literally and so i so i i completely

skipped over the next uncle tuple

because i this was not anything that i

thought i'd be interested in of course

then when wilco comes out i fall in love

with wilco but

you know but um i think it's it's a lot

i mean

that first that first uh

the first time you see someone first

time you hear someone really does stick

with you

mm-hmm you know and which i think is it

was always funny for me because like

that first time i saw replacements i

really just

they did not we're not my cup of tea

well and that goes back to my first show

at duffy's it's like i was more engaged

with what i was doing and trying to pick

out

which is the guitar that i need to be

soloing and what was going on

i you know boom it happened

and i've got to figure out okay now i've

got an idea of what these

songs are like you know it's not like

i'd listen to the records for months and

months and months prior to going and go

yeah i know exactly what these solos are

oh he missed that solo

you know i had no idea what was going on

and that you know

does that mean i was exposed in a

different fashion yes it does does it

mean it was a better exposure

it's no way to know that and i think

that the the

exposure for i think the way people are

exposed to music

is very very much a personal thing yeah

you know i used to be that i would

listen to an album

non-stop for

beginning or i would listen to it

non-stop for it would be the cd in my

car for the next three weeks of

commuting or whatever it might be

and now it's like it's almost i've kind

of turned into that

that 16 or 15 year old who listens to a

song

yeah so well it's also it's funny

because i remember having conversations

about mixtapes and how mixed tapes are

such a lost art form because of the

mixtape

with a cd you just it's so easy to skip

but a mixtape it actually takes you you

know you it's effort yeah

if there's work to find where the next

song is and things like that so for

every mixtape you probably gave it

that first listen you probably actually

listen to every song supposed to like oh

yeah i don't really like this let's go

you know and uh which so yeah definitely

the lost art form

yeah yeah yeah pandora is a terrible

thing

skip skip that's good the um

let's talk about the music for a little

bit okay you as a

fan of the replacements i mean after you

left uh

after you got fired for sure did you

listen to

did you keep listening to the band yes

yes

yes yes yes um and i this is the problem

i have with every musician that i've run

into

is that i glom on to what is either

nearly their most recent or their most

recent component and go into the back

catalog

and find that grit and then

everything that comes out after that

doesn't quite meet

the need of the grit i like the more raw

i mean you know the way the way the

records are produced the way that albums

are recorded

um are very haphazard you know

double false endings or whatever that

kind of stuff is super attractive to me

and i can't get enough of that and then

when things are very

purified and glossy and trimmed and

clean and hit and they hit stuff i just

kind of go yeah that's a really pretty

song

but where's the real emotion yeah

yeah the uh so i so i i can can i make

the leap to say that

you're not the biggest fan of uh don't

tell us all i'm not

the biggest fan of don't tell a soul

yeah

yeah lost me lost me at please meet me

yeah and it's not bad it's just not

raw and i think that from a

we all grow up we all have expanding

tastes we all decide that you know i

can't be an angry teenager for the rest

of my life

i'm going to probably be a little bit

more serious but when it comes down to

my consumption of or let's say i do have

a hard day and i want to

kind of do a little head banging

what am i going to do yeah you know i'm

not going to turn on

lawrence welk right i got to go back to

the catalog and go okay

here's what i think are the top 25

hardest hitting songs i've got in my

collection and i'm going to listen to

those songs and i'm going to go yeah

that

you know it does two things for me it

rocks

you know in the jack black it rocks and

in the it has an emotional connection

yeah whether it's a love song or talking

about running a red light

okay so which i've done

what of the album what which of their

albums i mean if you're

if you were making your desert island

list which replacements album would you

put

would you put in all replacements album

which one would it be if i took one with

me yeah

uh i'd take stink

wow okay all right i totally sure if you

were making your desert island list

which replacements album would you put

would you put an old replacement album

on which one would it be if i took one

with me yeah

uh i'd take stink wow okay

all right i totally take stick

stinking is such a [ __ ] it's really

weird it's like why would you why does

that make you i think no i think

i'm i are you second guessing yourself

no no no okay good no i

i um stink is

so loved here in minneapolis and like

and and

we're interviewing people in new york

and it's it's it seems like the

different pockets have different

favorite albums it's really oh okay yeah

yeah it's it's i mean

yeah yeah well okay but i told you that

and my exposure to them was

you know it's it's let it be

and stink sorry ma and then you know

that's what i got

yeah and that has a pretty good even

distribution of ballads and rockers and

short and fast and whatever it's got in

it it's also pretty evenly the same

material

yeah all across the board but if it was

to pick let's pick one of those three

just those three it's got to be stink

because it's got

beautiful emotion and raw energy in it

what's your favorite place in the song

go

did you ever did they ever play

hootenanny where do you got to go up and

play one of the instruments

no i no i didn't um but they did do that

yeah period clay changing instruments

but i never i'm not a

like we've talked to other people might

be afraid to be on camera i am totally

not comfortable getting on stage the

mixing board i'm the guy the behind the

stage yeah i've done smoke and mirrors

my entire life

and i really excel in that and i enjoy

doing that position i like helping an

artist

fulfill their potential that's what i

like to do

i don't need to be on stage and

coincidentally after i got off the two

or three places i started working at the

guthrie theater as a smoking

nearest technician there a stage

technician and

during the very first show i was doing

there not the first performance of that

show but the very first show

several weeks into the performance um

one of the

park hands on stage burst and drained

glass

down upon the stage and this is during

the performance

and i was directed to go on stage with

the dustpan and

broom and sweep up the glass so that at

least they wouldn't slip and fall and

cut themselves on it and i did that no i

have no problem going on the stage when

there's

100 000 people in the audience at all

until somebody engages me in the focus i

can tell the focus is upon me and of

course

you know during the performance this the

gentleman elite actor

addresses me as a porter he's like thank

you porter for cleaning that up and i'm

just like

i'm frozen and i have to

literally not think about the audience

not think about the focus that's on me

and actually get up and get off the

stage

terrifying terrifying and i can

completely sympathize with musicians who

have stage fright it's like they are all

about

expressing their emotions creating art

creating connections with audience

as long as they don't have to see the

audience it's like

yeah it's like my least favorite thing

about book writing is doing book tours

and having to read

to people to read people read my own

words i am shaking

it i absolutely i so i i like being

behind the camera

okay yeah yeah i don't mind being in

front of the camera but it's the it's a

live audience that gets yeah

what's it is that reading that i mean i

don't mind when we do film festivals and

i go up and talk afterwards because it's

really just there asks me questions

about the movie it's technical but

actually reading to me is absolutely

terrifying

well i think everyone's got their own

you know

yeah yeah yeah yeah did were you were

you writing something

oh okay the

okay so you mentioned potential

did did the replacements in your opinion

live up to their potential

are you asking me from this perspective

or from

a different perspective and if i say

this perspective is like you know now

we're

looking back and yeah i say looking back

i mean okay

i mean do you think this was a band that

should have been

bigger or more commercially successful i

mean the next rolling stone

no no absolutely absolutely not because

it would be a completely different band

you know the people who are

raving fans of the replacements let's

just use them because we're talking

about them the people who are raving

fans replacements

really really either have they have an

emotional connection to the music

or the performance and this has been to

talk about performance primarily

um we're talking about the music also

but really you're talking about

what do they do when they were on stage

how did the audience react to them

et cetera et cetera you know if anybody

had a negative reaction about

them you know they were drowned out by

the people like

oh my god i saw the most amazing thing

last night and

you couldn't you couldn't gain

widespread

commercial success in my opinion it's

not possible for banzo without actually

kind of fulfilling an expectation of the

customer

and the customers for sake of argument

50

or more of the customers expect it to be

you're going to play this song exactly

like it sounds on the record

right okay so did they meet their

potential

i believe they did 100 did they miss

something

no they didn't miss anything because

what they did was they did what they

wanted to do

whether they knew what they were doing

or knew what they wanted to do

unknown did they have a direction

completely unknown

i'm guessing no they didn't really you

know when they started out it's like you

know

we don't think we're going to be the

next rolling stones i don't think they

thought that

maybe paul thought that he would be the

next

who knows but i think that was about

paul being the next

artist not him being in the next rock

and roll band that's the world's going

to recognize

right right right do you feel

in the 20 years since they've broken up

do you

do you hear their influence a lot in

other bands

i'm trying more musically not yeah

performance not the trying to mimic

their

stage antics i don't think as much as

not in this not in this not in the

current decade which was just about to

end here um

i think that the influence was

incredibly heavily

incredibly heavy 10 plus years ago and

has of course tapered off

um because of well

maybe this is a mistake in my own

observation because i'm so old now but

i really enjoy getting a body of work

from an artist not a single

piece of work from an artist you know i

if i hear a song that's attached to a

video soundtrack or a movie soundtrack

and i go oh that sounds really

interesting i'm going to go get the rest

of that you get that album

and it isn't available because they only

did that one song for that

i need to have more exposure to the

artist

so and i think that what happens is now

artists are influenced by

more maybe artists are influenced by

single performance or this particular

piece of

artwork or art music whatever it might

be instead of

the body of work it's easy now just to

get that one song off itunes instead of

downloading an album or getting an album

from a record store

and if you got the whole album you may

go yeah the hit's great but this one

other thing

is incredible right i mean answering

machine is a great

great great song but is it

really possible to be a commercial

successful hit

maybe but maybe not his voice probably i

mean i love his voice but i mean i don't

his voice is so uncommercial

i think yes yes i mean there's

and but but the question that you you're

asking me is did it influence other

bands and i think that

you know that song or other you know go

or johnny's gonna die or whatever these

other ballads are that are really

powerful

probably info influence bands

dramatically

and they may not have ever gotten that

exposure if it had been today yeah

yeah they never i would never would have

been influenced by that band if i

had to go buy the whole album because

i'm just gonna download the one hit song

and i don't know i wish i had the

demographics to tell you that

if somebody downloads this hit song that

means they download these five other

songs by that

same color that's an interesting that

would be an interesting point to look up

yeah because

that really tells us and there's two

things that the internet can give us

that it's not giving us today

and it's difficult to do one of them is

exactly that the owners of that

information

apple or whoever the music company is

isn't going to really tell you that

you know this is what's really being

bought the second thing that i would

like and this is not

really available but could be available

is okay you asked me

who do i do i think that replacements

influenced a bunch of other bands and i

think the answer is yes and i think it's

more

the last the first 10 years since they

broke up versus the most recent 10 years

what i would love to know is okay if

this band

if the replacement influenced this band

who did this band

also get influenced by and influence

right and

vice versa replacements replacements are

influenced by by buy

right right so that web of who

influenced who

would be really nice to know yeah yeah

because

you're an author you've written lots of

books

who were you and who were your

influences and who did you influence

because if you

write this and you're influenced by

raymond chandler i'm gonna go read

raymond chandler

right if you were influenced by agatha

christie i might go read agatha christie

because

there's so much material out there how

do i find what i'm looking for right

right and

that's way off topic for this particular

but it's how i find bands nowadays i

mean when i find a band that i like

it's usually from following the links at

the bottom of i love e-music

uh you know i actually refuse to to

ever like get music for free online i

will always pay for it

it's because we're old but i've also

seen my movies

ripped online of course and it's like

it's it pisses you off it's like you

know i'm you know it's like

it's like you know i i own an internet

access and hosting company right we

i mean we have very high speed access in

my office and

you know it's frustrating for me

who i've never written a song in my life

it's pressing me to see all my employees

going to sites and downloading free

music i'm like you guys

you can't do that it's not something

that you do

and the only reason it's something you

not do is because

it's like somebody going to your house

and reading your journal and not paying

you for it

it's my wife's has three brothers who

are state jobs

and one of them constantly his him and

his wife are always getting free cds of

people

who are downloading really way before

they come out on dvd free

dvds and i literally said it's like okay

but

so like if i came and smoked pot in your

house would that bug you

and you'd be like yeah i would i i would

never let you do that but it's like but

you're doing something illegal here and

that

no concept of like you're stealing

wow this conversation is getting way off

the topic and i would

love to have this conversation i agree i

agree 100

that the the

the transaction the nexus of the

transaction of when you

take a piece of data and it was created

by somebody

and you're taking it for free

that should be very very simple to do

and there should be a monetary

transaction that happens at the same

time

apple did a really great job at making

it available that anybody could sell

their music online and it's low cost

part of the problem now though is what i

just mentioned before is that

you're not getting the full exposure of

the artist if they're doing an

epic opus of the meeting the recording

the loving the hating the breaking

the leaving you're just having one and

you're just seeing the loving

right right well you know but i was

saying that what i love about one of the

things i do love about this and finding

music is where

you go to these sites and it's like okay

this band was influenced by this people

they influenced these people

and they sound like these people and i

always just start clicking links and

going you know it's sort of

to to build that sort of like you know

uh

uh connection between bands and that's

that's how i usually find most of

the music i listen to you know starting

with like well if you like the

replacements

try out this new band you know or

whoever and that i think is a great way

i think that's one of the things i think

the web does give us

right it gets a large exposure i mean

that's sort of like walking into a

record store and it's like and having

the great old guys standing there who's

not

with these stars don't exist anymore you

know but saying hey it's like you know

they know what your taste is because

you're in there every week

and hey does new albums come out listen

to this i

yeah i i i think that

as much as and i think much as is on

topic or not but i think as much as

the various online retailers are good at

kind of collecting well

since you bought this you might like

this you know the amazon thing

i think that's really great but i think

it'll never be as

good as my friend amy who works at road

runner

and she says i heard about this thing

coming out

you should get it because there are

literally too many releases well if your

if your wife read

the same writer's story there's a

character in there which everyone tells

me how much they love called the

professor

and he runs a music store and he turns

the daughter of god onto all this music

professor is a completely real person

in fact he's one of my my face friends

he ran he ran

he ran a record store in waterbury i

mean my god the wreck it was something

like 8 000 square feet of just

crates alton's pack so tight you'd be

like

just pulling it apart oh my god and it

was just and he was

he was that's it yeah he was a peter

jesperson of whatever can i

probably oh boy i mean really that was

the best record story

in his time in connecticut but that

character is 100 real that is him to a t

in that book okay um but yeah and that

knowledge

i mean that's why people have editors

that's why people

are that's why content really should be

edited is because they have this

knowledge

of a larger context and go oh you know

you really ought to just try this thing

out it's not what we're being told by

the publisher is the best thing to come

out

we're actually giving you our honest

opinion third person third person's

perspective i don't

you know i'm not going to make anything

by telling you this try this

yeah we need that we need that

dramatically um

back to replacements okay um a question

um stage fright

yeah did they did they have stage fright

i don't think so well or i mean

that did that ever

was that ever a reason for any of the

drinking or

it was just them just never it never

even occurred

well would um no

i'm totally not aware okay of them

having any kind of stage fright

i never saw it never was an issue

for me that i was aware of if it existed

um to answer the question on

drinking it you know this is there's

only so many records that you can buy at

a record store there's only so many

parks you can visit

there's only so much tv you can watch

there's only so much radio can listen to

you've heard this album how many times

i'm bored

and we're in a town where we don't know

anybody

my friend jack i'm gonna go talk to my

friend jack

you know i'm not saying that that's

right or wrong i'm just saying that

the ability to self-entertain today is

so much higher

than it would have been or was at that

time

yeah and you know maybe the thing to do

is sit down and

you know write a song a day or take a

picture a day or write a journal entry

date or whatever it might be you know

to be creative i'm with you there but a

lot of times

it's miserable outside and you know

you've only got a couple hours

before you got to kill some time somehow

was westerberg ever the kind of

i mean i feel sillier because i think i

know the answer to this one but was he

ever the kind of sensitive artist type

that was sitting in the back of the van

trying to write a song while the

you guys were going to a show and i

you're laughing

[Laughter]

no he was much more sensitive than that

okay um and i you know

the to answer the question more

obliquely

i think artists in general you know

sometimes don't realize they're artists

until

later and they kind of throw things

together because they're just

emulating it's like you know

the kids all want to be baseball and

football and basketball stars today

because that's what they see

it doesn't mean that they're really good

at it and we can tell you that you know

you've got one in three million chance

of becoming a baseball superstar and

being a pitcher is even

worse odds than that whatever the odds

might be

it's really easy to watch a tv and go oh

my god that guy's

strumming that guitar and having a great

time and looking the girls fawn over him

i'm gonna do that and it's easy to pick

a guitar

and hammer out three chords and put

together a song that comes from the

heart

but does that mean you're an artist and

you can actually you know to have

discipline to do it every day

as an artist yourself you know that

actually writing is difficult work

writing a song is difficult work so

how do you do difficult work in a

chaotic environment i have no idea

voucher

so no the answer is paul was never

sitting in the back of a bus

running no the next answering machine no

i mean no no

no and i should say under discipline

absolutely not

possibly he was doing stuff in his head

um you know

journaling definitely but not

sitting down working stuff out a silly

question just occurred to me because

every girl i know including my wife

who's in love with tommy stinson

uh we're at any of what i don't know um

it's the same question every guy asked

why i have so many kissing tommy stinson

stories

it's it's it's not you know i could i

could call this kissing tommy stinson

we'll just that could be the entire film

it won't be but it could be um that'd be

great yeah

that's that's that's gonna be an extra

on the on the dvd a full feature

easter egg we need an easter egg kissing

stomach did you see the easter egg on

the website

i didn't didn't look that deep oh click

the volume control oh i did i heard the

interview

okay i love that i love that yes i love

that

um i love the story but the story takes

place after they broke up

so i was like i'm probably gonna use

this in a movie so let me just put this

here

no it's good yeah that was it was a

great that's a great story

yeah that's oh great did uh any of the

other guys in the band

ever like like what the [ __ ] is it they

see in you or was he not the chick

magnet at that point

no he was a total chick magnet okay he

was a total

chick magnet and why not i mean

super skinny lanky big hair

you know who knows what's slung below

that guitar we can't see it you know

he's got pretty

eyes makeup i mean just just

a pretty boy was would like was his

brother or

ever like like ever just annoyed by it

or just like bust his ass but

um the relationship between tom

and bob uh tommy was a ladies man

and bob was interested in his

self-exploration and then and you know

that means

don't know if i'm going to take drugs or

i'm going to drink or what i'm going to

do

what i'm going to do i'm he wasn't

interested in that kind of pursuit

was there now and and paul was not

you know paul was focused on different

things not on

picking up ladies at all um

chris i don't know if there was a desire

there or not i'm not real sure

you know i mean it's not like you know i

basically my job was get gear in get

gear out get us to the next place more

of a professional level what was there

ever

i've heard stories of like you you go to

leave at the end of the gig and tommy's

always the one that's missing yep

anything any funny stories of like

where's tommy

well the first thing that we would do is

we would ask around to say has anybody

seen tommy

and then the next thing we would do is

like did anybody get an address away to

pick up tommy

you know talk to peter talk to sully

talk to whomever

talk to the guys to say does anybody

heard did he go

somewhere and a lot of times when we

were in familiar places

like chicago or madison we would just

like you know he'll call us tomorrow

so that's normal and that's

you know once again now that i've done

more of this stuff that would never be

allowed

in a professional setting but this was

not that it was this was

seen in the pants have fun we're gonna

enjoy it

when you finally got to a professional

being on the road with a professional

rock band okay was it

shell shocked to you um

no it wasn't shell shock because i had

been exposed early on to a more

professional level and this was a change

from that this was

not opera this is rock and roll um then

i went to theater and then

i did more independent rock and roll and

going back

into independent rock and roll was a

shell shock for me

actually that's what i mean that's what

going back to other bands and like see

well

it's it's we are actually doing sound

check so

yeah and so yeah the answer is yes i

mean

going and it's like you know

knowing that somebody's going to take

care of something and

it's going to be the same thing as it

was last night

and make sure you write down the right

name of the city on the monitor so that

when they say

thanks toledo we're actually in toledo

uh did that ever happen

um i you've got to ask about the math

and now did they ever get the city wrong

no no because that that wasn't part of

their their there wasn't a spiel

okay that wasn't part of the you know

the banter was

paul just kind of

what do you want to hear more of an

interaction and question and answer

period

and then play a song and then break it

and

maybe finish it maybe not finish it if

you finish it what do you want to hear

or they're going to play something else

because they that sparked an idea for

them to play

technology no no monologues no

no i mean i and i saw paul uh do a

performance at first avenue a few years

ago

uh where he talked about his songwriting

and he still doesn't have the

story teller thing in him

yeah no i mean he talked a little bit

about his influences and

it was interesting to hear you know

michael jackson was huge and

it's just like you know i'm kind of

surprised by some of these things

and that was kind of interesting to see

but he still didn't have that

you know performer performer thing down

did what was the next band you worked

the next rock band you worked on

afternoon um

let's see next major tour

would have been oh i thought i went to

work at the guthrie theater for several

years and

after leaving the guthrie theater then i

worked for a local sound company and i

did lots of one-offs i did bruce

springsteen and i did judy collins and i

did

the nylon i mean those words in show is

probably completely

right it's completely the name day and i

also worked for the local stagehands

union so i did

you know bowling stones and baby bowie

and all these big

show big arena type events and it's like

you know each person has their job and

they do them exactly in sequence and the

building blocks go together and all of a

sudden

four hours later there's this ginormous

thing that's built

completely different feeling and no

emotion at all because it's about the

money and that is all about who's going

to be in these seats and make sure that

the sight lines are correct and they're

going to able to hear it because they're

paying x dollars per seat

um that yeah i just recently i went and

saw

uh carol king and james taylor and you

know

a beautiful performance but you know

very well

that since they didn't use a set list

and they play exactly the same songs

every night

they just are doing they're just going

through the motions

i mentioned to a friend earlier about

you know he said

that he saw some band and you know he'll

remember that

that show forever and i said you can i

can guarantee you the performer will not

remember that show

because it's identical to every other

show in every other arena you know

either the seats are multi-colored or

they're all the same color

that's all it is unless something goes

wrong

and if something goes wrong the more

something goes wrong

the more they're going to remember it so

if you ever do happen to run into it

pray that the sound system goes out or

something falls from the ceiling or

something major happens because that

will be the show

they remember and you can say yeah i was

in the 48th row and i saw that trust

fall from the thing

blah blah blah they'll remember and you

can have an actual connection with the

artist um so

i kind of lost your question there but

my my big my big tour

after the replacements was the jets

they're another local band

pop super pop band and they

we did a pretty extensive tour of the

south part of the country

um did it's kind of an interesting thing

you can

follow the state fairs

across the country play all the state

fairs and then kind of follow the

carnivals back across the country and

there's kind of a circuit that gets

played

um and yeah i did so i did the jets i

toured

uh i did rod stewart for a little while

and you know i

really didn't dislike being on the road

but i've been doing

enough performance and doing performance

repeatedly

over years disconnects you with the rest

of society to some degree

because you kind of lose track of where

am i doing laundry tonight and where am

i taking a shower and what city am i in

um after a while i really prefer to be

off the road and i really want to do

more recording

so i got out of that and started doing

my recording and and 88 was the last

touring year i did

you mentioned uh michael jackson let's

bring up the other

huge person from minneapolis prince okay

was there ever i mean the two of us

completely separate worlds

yes but was there was i i'm assuming the

replacements knew who prince was

obviously

did they was were there were they fans

at all or

um that's an interesting question

would they go see prince at first avenue

i i

paul probably would but i don't know

that anybody else would i mean because

you know

kiss was the influence right it was okay

i mean it was just not

not there i mean at that particular time

well

prince went to minneapolis central high

school paul went to minneapolis central

high school

his sister mary and i went to

minneapolis central high school

so we're all in this small little

community but really there is

there is a there's two separate worlds

there there's

white boy blues rock bands and then

there's funk bands

and you know having the having flight

time

play the prom you know that that prom is

not

designed to have a white boy blues band

rock band play

yeah just not going to happen so there

was there was probably a desire

later in his career to see but you know

did i go see prince when i was

you know at first ab when i had the

chance no killing myself now

really wish i would have yeah so you

know in 84 he filled in purple rain and

man that was like

that's when we were doing but the

replacements played first avenue when

some of the setup for purple rain

supposedly was there correct i believe

that

is correct that and i remember someone

someone wrote to us and said yeah

you remember western commenting from the

stage how cool it was to have all of the

stuff in there yeah um the

i think that we mentioned this earlier

is that i think that there was a

respect there's a there's there's always

respect i mean there was

whatever animosity there was between who

could do and replacements or a lot of

past rules

soul assignment replacements whatever

those things were there's still a level

of respect between

bands and that would go you know genre

to genre there's no reason that

actually i think there'd been more

respect outside of genre

because knowing how hard it is to play

jazz or knowing how to play blues

and you know have been doing it for 50

years you know that

you know not that anybody's going to get

down their knees and bow down to johnny

hooker but you know that's a guy who

amazing career amazing career

so or hank williams senior whatever it

might be

was the um rivalry between

uh mr doing replacements real

i think it was between the fans for the

fans it wasn't between the bands

that i could see or fathom because

there's no reason for it

the the rumor

is so much more powerful than the truth

and the less you say the more the rumor

just gets going right

okay um is there anything else you would

want to add about this band

that i didn't somehow cover here i

yeah the only thing i would say is that

i have to thank them for teaching me

about the

darker side of of life

okay

you