Original subtitles

Isn't it lovely?

Isn't it exciting?

I'm very excited.

This whole time.

It's overwhelming really.

How are you

containing

your excitement.

Through meditation

and deep breaths

and visualization?

So I'm Farah Jouni.

I am,

Lebanese born

and raised

in Jeddah.

I'm a filmmaker

producer,

currently working

in distribution

and film

distribution.

Exciting.

And it's,

very amazing

to be here

in Athar

the vibe.

I agree.

But you're

based here now.

I'm based in

Riyadh now.

Okay.

It's been

three years

I've been here.

Wow.

And,

I've been

to Athar before and

I'm very happy

with this edition.

And, Jax,

I feel like it's

the natural place

for them.

Have you been

last year and.

No.

This is my

first time

in Riyadh.

It's your

first time?

First time?

I'm in Saudi

Arabia as well.

But, you know,

what’s exciting?

because this is

very new.

Like the

the Podcast Truck is just like,

It's so exciting.

a new-born

what's exciting is

that we're going

to actually see

what kind

of audiences

it will attract.

Oh, wow.

You the first time here.

Me, the first time

doing this.

And then I was

walking around

yesterday

and the vibe

is fantastic

outside.

There's a lot

of diversity.

People

from all around

yeah!

And you feel

like it's

like there's

an economical

movement,

whether it's

creative

or financial

or whatever.

It is

like you feel like

it's actually

moving.

So, so tell me,

but I live

in Poland and,

I this is

my second time

in the Middle East.

I was in Dubai

before

I hosted an

Ai film festival

there.

I mean, like,

jumping

into specifics

right away.

I can back out,

like, in a moment,

give you

more context.

But I was

just saying that

it's like

I feel the vibe,

the energy

of the

Middle East and

and it's

very exciting

to be here.

And I feel that

there's so much,

potential

and everybody

sees it

and it's

very positive

and there's

all this kind

of top down,

you know,

governmental

support of,

of the arts

and industry

and development.

And it's all

very present.

And it's like,

you know,

and this whole

festival is kind of

tapping into that.

And I'm

from California

initially.

But I feel there's,

it's like

I don't know why.

Maybe,

maybe it's just me,

but there's like a

bigger skepticism

in the States

while there's also

the tech industry

and tech bros.

But there's also

a simultaneous

like skepticism,

which comes

through, comedy

comes through

You know, there's

lots of critics of

but in the,

in the

divide of cultures

and, you know,

left and right

and this

and that and

and then here it's

I don't know,

I just feel

this, like,

unified, like,

let's just

make the future

together.

Yes. Yeah.

But we're so young.

Yeah, exactly.

Well, even so,

from your

perspective,

it's like

because and

and I don't know,

I just know

a little bit

of the history

and understanding

of you know, I'm

still learning

about the

Middle East

and about

Saudi Arabia,

but movies

just opened back up

like seven

years ago,

like cinema.

There was no cinema

for a long time,

literally.

So like,

that's crazy

because I feel like

cinema is dying

in the US

and here it's

just being born.

Exactly. So.

And you're.

And that's

how you're

leading this?

Yes. Yes.

And that's

how I was

that exactly like.

All right. So yeah.

And now

it's your turn.

Everything that.

Tell me everything.

Everything

about about

Ai applies on the

the film

video

directing industry,

and the world

in a way

that the

old needs to

adapt to the new,

while it does,

that doesn't apply

here.

Speaking of

schools, I'm

speaking at

the Al Faisal

University

tomorrow, and I'm,

leading a

hackathon.

An AI hackathon,

also called

the Gen Jam,

which is

part of this,

group

that's from

Los Angeles

called Machine

Cinema.

And they have

been doing

a very

exciting job of

educating people

everywhere, from

creative

professionals

to tech

professionals

to just

regular people

who just want

to show up and,

you know, play

with the AI tools.

But basically,

in a few hours

you make

an AI film.

And so now

these are

the first two

I'm going to do

a Gen Jam tomorrow.

Al-Faisal,

University.

And then on

the 27th,

I'm doing

a, another Gen jam.

So at this

AI hackathon

at AUS in Dubai,

and yeah,

we make a film

with a whole

bunch of students

in just a few hours

using AI.

So it's

very exciting.

It's like hands on.

And this is part

of this education.

So I feel that

there's so

much interest

and this

Al Faisal that

they're like,

how can we

help you?

What do you need?

Can we do

press around this?

Can we, you know,

how do you want

all the departments

are just a few.

And I'm

thinking, whoa,

this is

so much excitement.

And they're

so eager to help

because,

you know,

we're coming here

with education

and just insights

and like,

hey, let's build

let's make

stuff together.

So, so yes,

I that's is

also I feel

that excitement

from the academic

institutions too.

Yeah.

And you know

what happens?

I mean, for

someone like me who

started

fifth

learning film

in 2009,

and then every time

there's an

update on

on Premiere

or Final Cut

or with a camera,

I'm scared

and I don't know

if I'm going

to be able

to learn it or not.

And what am I?

How am I going

to update

my information?

But now I have

to switch to AI

and I'm

integrating

with it.

But those new,

those new students

who are like fresh

and 18 and 20

and 21,

there's no fear.

They're just

excited.

And like let's,

talk about

that integration.

Tell me

because like

I'm scared

I don't know

what am I

going to do

if I'm going

to have a

job or not.

How am I going

to adapt.

How am I going

to learn.

And then

there's

those generations

that are just

going to

dive right into it.

Where do we start?

a couple of things

that come to mind

when you're

talking about this,

because,

so you

yourself

are also moving

into this kind of

AI space

from YouTube

to cinema

now, kind of

a new

evolution

in your process

as a creator.

But what you were

saying is that,

you know,

students

are getting

into this now,

although I had a

conversation here,

while there is

all this top down

support,

opportunities,

you know,

there's workshops

and it's like

the industry

is like wide

open, like

come with

your talent.

Simultaneously,

they're saying that

there

actually isn't

so much,

talent popping up.

It's still

like you,

you have

to incubate

the talent

like there's,

for instance,

how many?

And again, like,

I'm kind

of ignorant,

when it comes

to a lot of things

here.

But how many, like,

YouTubers,

influencers

that are making

AI cinema

or just or making

content

that are,

you know,

the early talents

that could move

into the

film industry here?

Are there

many of them?

Is this booming?

You're like,

nodding your head.

So we don't know

because, you know,

like we're

just like.

So the leaders

are like

the leaders of

the industry

are still

catching up.

You know what

I mean?

like short

films, for example.

That's

where you start

looking for talent.

That's

where you start

looking for

your next feature

film debut

director, writer.

Where are the shorts?

So the shorts

still don't

have AI

integrated in them.

Okay.

But there are

shorts

that are

being made.

There are

there's a lot

of shorts

that are

being made,

and even the market

of distribution

for those shorts

is changing

very quickly.

Soon we're going to

I think soon

we're going to stop

seeing short films

in that format,

and we're

going to see it

as a vertical film

format.

Yes, very soon.

I think

even a student

would do that

because

they would have

a better chance

at distributing it.

Yeah. Micro dramas.

Exactly.

You know,

interesting.

And I think that

I think

that will happen

soon.

I work

for one of the

best studios,

and the

oldest studios

in the country.

What's it called?

Telfaz 11 Studios

And until now,

I don't

receive

submissions of Ai.

I don't know.

Where are you guys?

So raise your hand,

send me an email

if there's

anyone doing

anything

on Ai.

But I think

universities

and schools

where

those students

are interacting

is where

the experimental,

work is happening.

And I

believe that

if we start

reaching out

and talking

about it,

we're going

to start to see

those

students

experimenting.

But then

you're going to

have to teach them

how to package it,

finish it,

turn it into

a product

of some sort.

It's not

that difficult.

Maybe tomorrow we

we start

The AI revolution

begins tomorrow.

At Al Faisal University

at the hackathon,

those students

will make stuff

that'll get to you.

I'll say, hey,

I know you.

And then

they're gonna go “Whoa!”

and I'm

going to say,

if you make

something amazing,

it can get to

the right people.

Exactly.

So by

the time

this episode

comes on air,

probably

their product

will be done,

their film

will be done. Okay.

After they meet

you tomorrow. Yes.

And then we can

they can circle

back to us. Yes.

So let's be

in touch

about all of this.

That's amazing. So.

But what about

your

personal projects.

So you're a

you're a producer,

but also

you're a director,

I'm a filmmaker

and I,

I did the

whole stages.

I went through

all of the stages.

What do you

love the most?

What do I love the most?

The people.

Okay.

The people.

The enabling

of the talent

is what I love

the most.

I mean.

So you're kind of.

It's kind of like

a producer mindset.

Yeah,

I do have

the producer

mindset a lot.

I mean,

I'll direct

when I have

the same

kind of producer

giving me

what I give.

I was interesting,

they were really

similar

because I feel

like I've directed

my own stuff,

but I also see

that, like,

I never had

the producer,

that I want

to become,

the producer

that I never had.

Exactly.

Yeah. Wow.

Because, you know,

like, I'm

not in a hurry

to direct.

I just,

I love the

whole industry,

and I've dabbled

in all the

different

departments of it,

and I enjoyed

every single one of

them.

And now that

I matured,

I have a strong

business side,

networking

and like,

connecting

things together

and making

things happen.

So, you know,

I embrace producing

I love

distribution,

I learned it. Yeah.

And now you're

in distribution.

I'm in

distribution.

So this is like

the main

kind of bread

and butter.

This is what

you're doing. Yeah.

But I do

I do produce

on the side.

As an independent

filmmaker,

and I,

I always look

to connect

with the talent,

you know, like,

I'll do it

if I find someone

that I believe in

and I feel like

it's a real voice,

a true

voice, authentic.

And then they have

the right,

attitude towards it

because it does

take a certain type

of, maturity

and understanding

of who you are and,

and your purpose

to be able

to produce

something

that is actually.

Produced direct,

create anything.

There's like a

kind of a

it's like

you need to have

done some soul

searching in a way,

and maybe it's,

conscious.

Sometimes

it's unconscious.

Sometimes talent

just pops up.

But I'm

curious also is

is Saudi Arabia

and the film industry here,

are there

co-productions

with other,

countries

in the region

or is it

everybody's

because in Europe,

you know,

the co-production

model

is the way that

these films

succeed.

You know, a film

that is a

whatever

a Polish language

film could

have 3 or 4

different countries

supporting it.

And then

those countries

are also calling it

their film.

Is it similar here?

So this culture

is developing.

It is a culture,

you know,

I mean, the.

Film culture,

the cinema.

Yeah, yeah.

it does happen

on a strategic

level.

There's a lot of,

cultural treaties

being signed,

so they are,

encouraging it.

But, you know,

it's been

seven years,

like you said.

So the

the local funds

and the

local support

and the local

rebate programs

and all of

this is still

kicking off,

and we have

a lot of,

companies

from outside

coming

to co-produce

with us here.

You know,

bringing the,

the expertise,

elevating our

experiences,

you know,

making

our work better

because

there's a lot

of integration

between,

like, Saudis

and expats

and locals,

residents to,

to to

produce something

and bring all of

the experiences

together. Wow.

Yes.

Can you

mention, like,

a dream project?

How would it work

from a production

side?

Like a story side?

I know

this is a very

tough question

and it's like,

what's the dream

project that

you want to

eventually make?

Okay, no, I

actually I

kind of have a

I have an idea,

you know, like

it all starts

with the person,

you know,

like you

find that talent

and then

and then

you're like,

oh my God,

I feel like.

This person has

something to say.

And then I read it

and then like, oh,

it's actually there

and then

It's not always

the perfect

structure

of a script,

but that's where

we come in

as producers

to create the right

development

environment,

the right

development budget,

to bring the right,

consultants

script doctors

elevate it

to make it,

to better

make it

mean something,

make it relevant

from different

angles.

You know,

socio, economical

perspective

put it in

the genre, define

the genre properly.

If you've done

if you do this

very well,

then you move into

the production

and then in

the production,

I feel like

we need to

be able to

integrate all of

the local talent,

you know,

with the necessary,

experts

from abroad,

whether it's

from the region

or if it's,

from outside,

the region.

and it's

not just about

let's bring people

with the

biggest portfolios

and CVS

and names and,

and whatnot, like

match the DNA,

match the.

Sentiment

or the, aesthetics

or the sensibility.

Like,

if I talk to you

and I want

to bring you

in to

consult on

how to bring an Ai

on that amazing

production of that

amazing director

That's actually fine.

So, you know,

let's talk

let's see if

there's chemistry.

Let's see

if there's

real understanding.

Let's see

if there's

an authentic,

genuine connection.

You know,

because a lot

of the times

someone arrives

and then

they're doing it

for the

wrong reason,

you know, and.

KPIs, ROI

where's the money?

You know,

those conversations

are too often

the main

conversations.

You're like,

wait a second,

why are we here?

I mean, we'll

do that.

But after

we connect, yes.

You know, like,

are you feeling

the director?

Are you feeling

the script?

do you feel

something?

Do you

relate to it?

You know?

Yes.

We'll bring you in

and then

all the money

and all the.

Step by step.

Yeah. Exactly.

And then create the

right environment

when you're

producing,

let everyone

feel safe.

Heard and then,

be able to face

all the challenges

because they're

that's what we do.

We face challenges.

And then

fix everything.

You couldn't

do it in production

and post and again,

that's it.

In post

now with AI,

the AI edition.

Exactly.

And there's,

there's where

the very good,

good opportunity

for the director

and some of

the locals

to travel

and maybe

do it outside,

you know, and like

see the facilities,

not necessarily

the big ones,

even the small ones

where something

cooks

and it’s very interesting,

you know,

and then you

feel like it's

a co-production

of humans,

not a

co-production of.

Machines.

Systems. Exactly.

Wow, I hear you.

Did

I answer

your question? Yes.

I was so good. So,

what projects

are you working

on right now?

Can you talk

about anything

that you're doing

specifically?

But who's interviewing who?

I don't know

because I

have my camera here

Curious aren’t you? Yes!

I would

like to know

all of

these things.

I mean, I can also.

You’re curious

So how many Polish

or Saudi production

co-productions

are there

and can we

start one

right now?

Can we just

figure it out?

Your wish

is my command.

What kind of script

are you looking for?

Oh, wow.

How can we make.

What are you

looking for?

What am I

looking for?

These are the questions

that I ask

because I'm

also shooting

a documentary

about creativity

in this age of AI.

Right. So.

Wow, what am I?

Okay, now

it's my turn.

Because if

you're looking

for something,

then maybe I can

find it for you.

Oh, well,

if you're looking

for something,

maybe I can

find it for you.

who's, like, more

altruistic here?

It's like

fighting to

be altruistic.

So you know what?

Now we can say that

the first level

of this

co-production is

we can ticket

because there's

connection.

There’s connection?

Okay.

That's connection.

All right.

Okay.

That was a

like little smash

the potato props

we just did

there off camera.

So wow.

Yeah. So.

But wait,

you're answering

What are you

looking for?

or am I answering?

Yeah.

Because

you're like,

what are you

looking for?

if you would

I mean, you

you've been here,

you've been talking

to people.

I'm sure

we're in Athar

there's

a lot of creatives

here. Yeah.

If and

and it's

a first impression.

What's very

interesting

if you would look

for a kind of story

here,

what's the

first thing that

comes into

your mind.

Well,

to answer

this question.

One thing that

I keep hearing

is everybody's

looking for

authentic stories

that are

coming from

the place,

because, you know,

you can treat

a country

like a

service provider

for Hollywood,

like it's

just a backdrop

for an

American romantic

comedy in Saudi,

you know, but

that's

not going to be

the same thing

as a local story.

but then

there's also

the outsider's

perspective on

a place.

I'm obviously

embodying that.

But coming in here

and then

asking all

the questions,

interviewing

everybody,

even though

I should be

the one

being interviewed

and coming

with a camera,

you know,

putting the lens on

everybody else

because I want to

just hear

about this.

And this is also

what my documentary

is about.

it's called

a Human Future.

And it's literally

like about people

and their stories.

And then

personally,

I'm seeing,

Africa and

the Middle East as

so much

more exciting.

It's like,

I'm from

California.

So many people,

they're like,

Wow, you're

from California.

What are you doing

living in Europe?

And why are you

in Africa,

and the Middle East?

Because I'm more

interested in

what's

out there

because it's

like California

is a very

specific place

and I love it.

And it's like,

got the coolest

music and movies

and weather

and there's so much

cool stuff

about it.

But at the same

time,

it's like that

I got it,

I know it,

I feel like

it's in my bones.

And now I'm like,

what's out there?

you know,

even my parents,

they came

from Poland,

leaving

Communist times

for California,

for Silicon Valley,

for better

opportunities.

And now I'm

I'm like, cool.

Thanks, parents.

Like you did

a good job.

You know, mission

complete for you.

And now, like, I'm

going to

take the baton

and now

I want to go,

you know, that way,

meaning

like the places

that are more

positive developing

and so now

to answer

your question,

how do we bring

this kind of idea

here into

this place?

now, is it

a stranger,

you know, this

this kind of,

genre

trope, a stranger

in a strange land,

you know,

the stranger

comes in,

the stranger can be

a threat.

The stranger

can be,

some kind of,

you know, Messiah.

So this genre idea.

I really like this.

And then you can

shine a light

on a place and see

on one level

you see a regional

kind of aspect,

but then

simultaneously

you see

a human aspect

because obviously,

you know,

it's like

we want to tell

human stories,

not just

local, isolated,

you know, stories

that don't have

a bigger appeal.

So, in this developing

co-production

that we have here,

I think, you know,

because

again, like, maybe

we'll

find a script,

maybe

you have a script,

maybe

I have a script,

but it's like

something

about this,

you know,

like going

into a place

and seeing it

from the inside.

That POV.

Yeah.

Of the outsider.

Maybe

from the outsider.

But again,

the outsider

allows you

to look at the

inside, right?

Without the,

the local bias and.

I always wonder

who is going to do

the Cinema

Paradiso of Saudi.

Wow.

Like you mean

that movie Cinema Paradiso?

That kind of films,

you know,

where you watch

the little boy,

you know,

like playing with a

pelicula

and like,

like seeing it

on a big screen,

you know, like,

like Breathless.

Truffaut’s Breathless.

So, yeah,

you know,

like films

like that,

I mean,

we saw that attempt

in a beautiful

attempt

and one of one of

the Saudis

first

theatrical

releases.

Okay,

The Book of Son

for the Qodus Brothers

And they did it

very well,

you know, like,

you see that guy

in school,

that teenager

who wants to make

his film,

and then he

goes through

all of the comedy

and all of that

different obstacles

until he does.

and he's

doing good.

It's a very

good film.

And it was

it opened,

I think,

right after Covid.

So it didn't

take its theatrical hit.

But it's

very well done.

And I

mean, The Qodus Brothers today

like are one of the

very pioneering

names,

in the industry.

and then also

you have

the Red Sea Film Festival

And the Red Sea

Film Festival

happens every year.

in Al Balad

The Jeddah historical district.

And you have

a lot of,

like, stars

coming from all

around the world,

mixing

with the

local filmmakers

and the

regional industry

in the heart of

that old town

where kids live

with their

old families

and the little

shops and,

and like

the families

of Jeddah, the old Jeddah

and then I wonder,

like that kid

who is like

seven and eight,

who looks

at the red

carpet and

looks at the

cars opening

and the

like, all the,

the stars

coming out.

And they're like

looking at this

and now,

you know, like,

that's

how I see that

film opening,

you know

what I mean?

And then what if

one of those people

who are attending

comes and speaks

to that little boy

and they

you go into that

journey of like.

I'm seeing it,

I'm seeing.

And this

reminds me of,

a film

by Satyajit Ray.

This,

Punjabi

Indian director

from the 50s.

And it's just

a simple scene

and it's kind of a

almost

even

a cliche scene,

but it's like a

little village boy

who is like, he's

wandered off

from his,

you know, his home,

and he's walking

through

these fields,

and he hears

a sound

and he's looking

off in the horizon,

and there's like,

a smokestack,

and he's

so excited,

and you're like,

feeling

the excitement.

He's running

through the field,

you know,

it's all

tall grass,

so you can

barely see his head

popping out.

And then

it's a train.

It's just a train.

And the train

zips by

and there's like

wind pushing

all the wheat,

you know,

the leaves.

And he's just

so amazed

at this train.

And it's like,

that's civilization

for him.

You know,

he's in this, like,

very old school.

This is like 1950s,

but I think

it was depicting

like India

or the

region

even earlier.

So it's

like the awe,

the excitement of,

of a basic thing,

a train. Wow.

You know,

but at the same

time, it's

just how you

approach it.

so you're,

you're basically

saying this

like the,

the stars and the,

the world

is coming in

and that like

a little boy's

eyes. Wow.

That's like.

And then 50

years later,

this guy is the

biggest director

winning an Oscar.

Or like Palme d'Or.

in Cannes or like

the best film

at the Red Sea

Film Festival.

And the Red sea

is like

50 years old

and, you know,

like 50th edition.

It's crazy.

But are we going

to write this under

and do this with AI?

Should we?

if we want

to do this

film with

AI, tell me what

would be

the journey

now you lead.

Okay.

But again

AI is not.

It's like

the film is

the film

and the story

is the story.

And then

then we find out

what are the tools

to create

that story.

Like what

are the best tools

to create

that story.

So AI can be

very helpful

with that.

I mean,

my immediate

thinking is

AI can do so much,

but if you

really want to

utilize the

power of AI,

I'm right away,

I'm thinking,

not a live

action film.

I'm actually

thinking more,

animation style

because AI

can be very,

very helpful

to simplify,

you know,

the complex

workflows of,

of animation.

So, so perhaps

this first

film, it's,

you know,

our first

collaboration,

of course.

You know,

we're thinking

aspirational

thinking here.

It could be a,

Polish

American Saudi

co-production.

And AI can be,

you know, a

selling point,

obviously,

on many levels.

But it's like,

we know that it's

not about AI

because that's

just a tool.

It's about the

human story.

Just like flow.

I don't know

if you saw flow,

which won

the Oscar.

Yeah, that's

this cat

and the other cat.

I watched

that twice

silent film.

So beautiful.

I'd like shed

a little tear.

It was so good.

I'm like, wow,

this is like

a great film. And,

Yeah.

I also,

you know,

I don't

want to think

about that time

where we won't

have jobs anymore,

so let's not go

there.

Let’s stay here.

lots of people

are going

there though.

And there,

you know.

Do you want

to tell us

about the filmmaking future?

I didn't want to go

there.

Do you want

to tell us?

You know,

let's talk

about

what's possible

to make right now.

Exactly.

So,

you know, I mean,

we are still

not in the phase

of complete

takeover.

We are still in the

phase of

integration,

you know.

So I will

write better

with

the help of ChatGPT.

How can I make

my how I was going

to integrate

my process with it

so I can

become

faster, better,

more structured,

avoid a lot

of mistakes

that we got

in the

editing room,

or then you cringe

when you watch it

on screen,

you know?

So tell us

a little bit

about that.

let's have a

like one segment

about that

where you can

just tell us

how we can

make things

integrated

at this stage.

In.

The creative

process.

So okay, like

a little context.

Because what's

so interesting

is that

this, industry

that's so new here,

is unfolding

then it's like

every single,

industry,

every civilization,

everything has

to go through

its process.

So what's

interesting and

like in Hollywood,

there's already

this kind of

concern, fear

about what

AI is going to do,

who is it

going to replace.

But also it's

the evolution

of cinema

and it's

just always

technology gets in

and it

changes things

for better

or for worse.

It's

and then it's

a new tech

and it's

just ingrained

in the culture

It happened for film. Exactly.

From film to digital.

Exactly.

and we can go

there to agentic filmmaking

where there will

literally be

somebody

just creates

a basic prompt.

And then

a whole film

can be created

like literally

scenes edits,

you know,

lighting choices,

like you just

it could be

a sophisticated

long prompt.

Essentially,

you put in

a screenplay

and outcomes

a movie.

There is not

that future

not so far away.

But before we go

there,

because

that's still,

you know,

it's not quite

there yet,

but we're

getting close.

So AI is

on every

single level.

You know,

for instance,

moodboards,

like when I'm

coming up

with ideas,

I'm listening

to music,

I'm looking at,

image references.

Sometimes watching

films are

pulling stills

out of other films

and like,

creating a world

this way.

So AI can be

very helpful

to already do this.

And then

again,

answering

the question of,

how can AI

be helpful

at this stage?

It's like you can

essentially design

the whole movie

before you

make the movie,

but you can

design it

to a point

where it's like

you're kind

of almost already

making the movie,

especially if

it's animated.

You can

essentially create

early mock ups

that can be used

as teasers

and marketing

materials

that then it's

just like

a formality

to make the movie.

It's funny

because I

remember even

saying this

when I made my

I made,

you know, I'm

working on

my second

feature film,

as a writer,

director

or producer

as well.

But it’s kind of

a similar process.

Like,

as you may

know, I'm

speaking to

the choir here.

It's like

the more

you have planned,

the more

the vision

is not just

in the head

of a director

or a writer

or something.

The more that it's

actually like

visible on paper

and shot lists

and moodboards,

then the more

everybody goes

like, oh, okay,

this is what

we're making,

even though

that's probably

going to change.

It's

like helpful to

get to that stage.

Well, now with AI

that stage

is so much

more advanced

because you,

you're basically

in the first stages

of production

when you're already

and doing

deep development

with shot lists,

moodboards,

character designs,

all of this.

as a director,

this excites me.

As a producer,

this excites me.

As a director,

it excites me to

to be able to

put my vision

that clearly

to communicate it

to everybody,

to every

department.

And as a producer,

I'm very excited

to receive

something like that

from a director

so I can actually

do a better job

in making the film

closer

to the director's

vision. Fantastic.

So what's happening

right now

is that

who is creating

that curriculum?

that will teach

what you just said,

because what

you just said,

anyone

who is reading

about AI,

listening,

watching,

whatever everybody

who’s learning

knows that,

okay, at

this point,

you know that

you can make

your shot list

better.

Your

script better

or everybody's

attempting at it.

But

I don't know,

if I would take one

month course

somewhere,

you know, to,

upgrade my process,

where do I go?

I remember when we

when I went to

film school,

there's a

I had the

acting class

where I go

and learn

how to deal

with actors

and actually be

in the actor's

shoes.

I had the

post-production

class where I went,

and I learned

how to use

Premiere and

Final Cut,

and how to have

the mindset

of an editor and

and how

many decisions,

how many clicks

you make

per decision

when you're working

as an editor,

and how to think

like one, you know?

And then there

was the class

where we were

learning

how to deal

with the camera

and how to light,

you know,

the curriculum

was clear.

Yeah.

Who is creating

that curriculum

so that all of us

can just go

and learn that

in a month, two,

three, one year

bachelor, masters,

I don't know,

come back

and apply it

because you know

what's happening.

the AI is advancing

so fast. Yeah.

No.

And nobody's

teaching it.

Like it's

like they

have a club

where they're just

moving ahead

with AI

and nobody's

learning.

So that gap.

some of the

also problems

that I see here

is that

somebody they

they get a

little bit

of attention

because they make

some interesting

AI project.

You know, it

blows up on

LinkedIn

on Instagram.

And then they are

suddenly experts.

And they

they're like,

I'm going

to educate

everybody now

because I know

all about this.

And then

they turn it

into a business

and they're

making some money,

and you have

all of these

little

individual cases

and it's like,

this is not

how you educate

a whole population

about AI tools

by doing

mini workshops.

A lot of people,

that's their

immediate.

It's like a

financial gain.

Oh, I can gain

something

because I

have insight.

Not many

people have it.

Boom, I'm

going to make

a workshop.

So this is

very common

in Poland

and Europe.

And this is

how a lot

of the early

AI adopters

aren't

making profits,

because they

are becoming

these isolated

little cases of

we can

teach the secrets

of making AI.

So

this is a problem

for the

bigger industry.

So

with the foundation

that I'm forming

with a friend

in Poland,

literally,

these are

the conversations

we're having where

it's like,

not let's not treat

this like

a business

because that's

taking away

from the art,

the history,

the culture.

It's like this

is something

much bigger

that we're trying

to do here,

and we're

making

this curriculum.

It's not easy

because you

basically need

a framework

before

you make an

individual

curriculum,

because the tools

are moving so fast.

You are the first student.

And then,

yeah, well, you're.

Learning it

and then you're

turning it

into a curriculum.

Yes.

So I for two years

I've been making

little AI films.

Speaking on

various panels

around the world,

hosting AI

film events,

and now

with a friend who

also went through

a very

similar process

as

a cinematographer.

He and I,

we teamed up

and we're like,

let's,

let's actually

create this

framework.

And regardless

of the,

the tools,

because the tools

are moving

so quickly, it's

almost like

you can't

there is

no throughline.

It's almost like

if you didn't

start two years ago

at the beginning

of Midjourney and,

image generation,

and if you didn't

hold on to that

and like advance

and evolve with it,

then you

you missed out

like that.

Was it that you

if you were on

then you'll

understand

everything now.

But if you

get it now

and it's

it's strange.

It's like you

only look back

a year,

but it's

kind of a

lot of work

to like,

look back

at a year of

progress and

tools and

we're now

we're trying

to create

a framework

for those people

that don't have

to understand

every single

nuance tool.

But once you get

into the framework,

then the new tools

can fit into it.

So again, it's

kind of conceptual.

We're working

on a curriculum.

We want to start

in a couple

of universities

in Poland,

and then

through various

collaborations,

partnerships

with other

entities,

because usually

it starts

with individuals.

Everything starts

with individuals.

And like

the systems,

they don't know

what's happening.

So they're kind of

at least in Poland,

they're

ignoring it.

But if you have

individuals

that have a mindset

of let's

figure this out,

not instantly

try to make

some money, haha,

yes, we're

going to,

you know,

it's like, no,

this is like

a real

cultural global,

you know,

a societal problem.

There is new tools.

We need cinema people

to like be

the cultural

ambassadors,

and we need to

know how

to communicate

with them

and educate them.

So this is we're

just building

this now.

We're going to have

our first event,

which is also a

more series

of workshops

and presentations

on December

1st in Poland.

These gen jams

that we're doing

are also

part of this,

although even a gen

jam is kind of

as exciting

as it is,

you make a film

in a couple hours.

It's not a

deep dive.

It's not a true

curriculum.

it's like,

scratching

the surface

just to get your

hands dirty.

But it's like

you need

so much

more than that.

That’s the first step.

Like the next step

is to like build

a curriculum and,

and then share

our insights

from Poland

and from Europe

and bring them

here.

So these things

are happening.

So we should

talk about it

some more. Yes.

I mean

I mean that's the

that's the thing,

you know,

because like

and I really

call well,

you know, like on

institutions and

people who

have an

institutional

mindset

to be patient

with their return

on investment.

Like you said,

those current experts

who are it's okay.

You can go and

make quick money

out of it.

It's great.

you're not that

You know, for each

they're calling,

you know,

but those like you

who are

like actually

thinking like,

we need to

invest time

and effort

and intellect

and knowledge

and intelligence

into developing

that kind

of curriculum

that can be

a foundation

of something

that can actually

be distributed

and taught

for the

longer term.

And then that keeps

that should be

maintained and

and usually

updated regularly

with all of the

quick changes

that happen.

Is it

a hamster wheel?

Are we ever

going to be able

to catch up?

It's kind of

a teaching

how to learn, how

to think,

how to think.

It's a new way

of thinking.

Exactly.

And I see

a lot of it's,

it's very

it's like

again, my,

my, the critic

in me, like, see,

there are

many people

that are

advising on

AI that

I think then

in privately

when I speak

with them,

they're very skeptical

and

they're skeptical,

but they know that

they have to advise

and speak

on at one level.

But

I also sense that

there is

a resistance.

And then

privately, like,

I'll hear

things like,

yeah, but we know

this is just like,

you know,

it's like it's

kind of a it's

hurting us

more than it's

helping us,

but we have to

go into it.

And I'm like,

oh, that's

not the thinking

that's

going to help

this thing

become normal.

That's not the

thinking that

helps it

helps people

to adopt it.

And like

because it's just,

it's at

adaptability.

It's a flexibility,

like a more

specific case.

And I was at

the Ludwigsburg

German film school

And it's,

you know, it's

a top notch

global film school

like Hollywood,

and it is collaborating with

folks there.

But I mention this

because I

was at a talk

there.

And I saw a few

artists on stage

who were showing

their workflow,

and they’ve already made some

Snoop Dogg AI music videos

and there was

no resistance

to the tools.

But basically

they had

30 tabs open,

which can be confusing

and chaotic,

but

it's the ability

to move from

so many

different online

tools,

sometimes

local tools,

but also work

with so many tools

and take

understand how

each tool,

changes

the content,

changes a scene.

and they’re so adaptable

and that adaptability is,

I think, the thing

that needs to be taught,

it's like

you have to

be so quick.

just like with

non-linear editing,

so many people

that were

editing with,

you know, old

school film,

they're like,

oh, wow, I have to now

look at more screens

move and I can move this here

and here and here.

and it’s literally called

non-linear editing

because you don't

have to think

in a linear way.

So now

it’s just like our world

is becoming

more fragmented

in so many ways.

even the film

Everything, Everywhere All at Once

It's funny because that film

it wasn’t my favorite film,

but it works on a

philosophical level

about how we see

reality now.

it’s so philosophical

because everything

is existing

all at once.

And the

new way to

make cinema

is just like that.

You have to have

a million

different tools

that you know

how to work

with quickly,

and you have to

be adaptable.

And then you can

if you have

a vision,

the vision

will go through

all those tools

and it'll come out

maybe

something

beautiful.

So that idea is

what also

needs to be

given to students.

And young folks that will hopefully,

make big movies one day.

But like now

after what you just said,

I felt a little bit

safer and better

because I felt

like we have

we still have time.

Why?

because I

don't know

who is that person

who would be.

I don't know

how many people

will be able

to reach that point

where they

can actually make

a feature film

that is not

a live action

feature film

soon enough,

because you know,

like the learning

curve is it's

not easy,

and how many people

need to learn this

to actually be able

to produce

a live action film.

And until we

reach there

we can't reach

there without

the institutional

learning,

the curriculums,

the proper

teaching on

a mass level

so that

you can create

groups,

production units

that can

actually do that.

Or is it

going to be

a singular effort

of that one genius?

with all these

tabs? Both.

It's like it's

both because,

you know,

Darren Aronofsky

like a Hollywood,

you know,

superstar.

It's a

he started

with, Pi.

Pi is a

singular effort.

I mean,

Christopher Nolan,

he made Following.

It was

a singular effort.

It's one guy

is the writer,

director,

producer, editor.

So you'll

you will have

those individuals

that just.

They're fearless.

They're like,

I have a vision.

I'm going to

use everything

I have

to tell a story,

and then they will

rise to the top.

But you

can't expect

everybody to be like that.

And so you

create systems

and then you

create systems

to nurture

individuals

who have

that talent,

but just need

more support to,

to guide them

through.

And so

I think it's like

both good.

Yeah.

That's good

news actually.

It's literally

both.

But at the same

time,

now is the time

for the Mavericks

who are like,

there's no

systems yet.

Let's just

dive into the

tools.

But I got an idea.

And

that is

exciting too,

because

literally somebody

can just be

working on

from their phone

a tiny camera.

And that camera

can be enough

to create

like a visual style

that you

put into the

AI tools.

You change

the style.

I'm waiting for

the next like

year, 2 or 3 years,

there will be

genius films

that come

from basements

with like, a kid

and three

of his friends or,

or her friends

made something

that's gonna be groundbreaking

I can't wait.

I have a theory.

Oh, do tell.

I don't know how

I came to it

IP will be king.

Oh yeah

yeah yeah yeah.

Like IP

and distribution.

And vertical videos are moving

And if you have IP

and you’re making a

vertical video,

then that can spawn

a whole bunch

of other media.

So but I agree.

Let’s get to the

human side of it.

It's a

paradoxical kind

of fear,

because I

literally think

that we are

constructing

our demise

with technology

That's why

I'm asking you.

You know,

there's

a lot of fear

because there isn't

a place to learn.

And if we

learn, then

we're actually

doing something

about it.

And then,

you know, like,

you feel

like you're

actually facing it,

you know?

So I can't wait

until we

hear the news

that, oh,

this one

month workshop

is opening,

and they're

teaching you

how to come up with

your own process

of how

to integrate with

AI as a filmmaker,

as a designer, as a

chef, I don't know.

And then,

we're no longer

avoiding this

monster and just,

looking it

in the eye

and making it

our own

and realizing

that we

can actually

benefit from it.

What do you think?

Yeah,

you kind of

nailed it

where it's like,

the fear comes

from ignorance,

generally,

especially when

it comes to

the tools that will

enhance creativity.

It's like,

that is so obvious

for me.

if there is

a creative

spark of humanity,

it needs to get out.

And the tools are all

around us.

And now there's more tools

that are more sophisticated,

and even

the process

is less important,

than the actual idea,

which is also

exciting.

You don't need

to go through a

crazy production

pipeline

that lasts 3

to 6 months

or a year.

You can actually

work with

these tools

to create something

much faster

from the mind

of the artist,

from the

storyteller, out

to the

to the minds

of the viewers.

Do you think

and this can

go off the record,

but do you think

we can list

I don't know

if somewhere

in the YouTube

there's a place

where you list

stuff.

Do you think

we can list

a couple

three, 4 or 5?

Whatever

you have in mind of

actual tools

that filmmakers

can start to dabble

with if we will

answer 1

or 2 questions

that you have

a practical answer

in your hand, like,

okay, download

this app,

you're going

to find

the tutorials

on YouTube

and start there.

For example,

do you think

we can list

two or 3 or

4 of those? Yeah.

And become a little

practical and

and just

with this

conversation

for filmmakers

maybe.

But also

it helps to

just see films

that are

made with AI

and then oftentimes

the best films

they will have

behind the scenes.

But Matthew,

there is a lot of

clutter online.

We don't know

where to start.

So I just

had a whole

talk about this.

Exactly.

It's the clutter.

And then you

don't know

what's real

and what's phony

and who’s

just selling us

I know it's

all noise.

if you can give

me one link

or one app or one,

one person

to follow

so that

a young filmmaker

or myself can just,

like, click

and look at it

and change

their algorithm

into something

useful.

Do you think

we can do that?

Yes.

I mean,

should I start

naming them now?

Please! Let's name them.

Well, it's funny

because it’s such a great

business model

that they have.

And so there is

a part of me

that thinks,

they're doing

a good thing

and they're

making a lot of

money off of it.

But I mean,

but it's also

how I got started

with AI education,

like I did a lot of

my own research,

but then

Curious Refuge,

it was

super helpful.

Actually, I like

it sounded like

I was saying

something bad about them?

They're super helpful.

Curious Refuge?

Refuge.

Curious refuge.

That's an app

or what is it?

It’s a platform.

They have,

YouTube, Instagram,

account

that has

regular podcasts,

insights, tool updates

educational resources.

They were

recently bought

by a new

AI studio

called promise.

So it's like

part of this whole

revolution is

in the hands of

a few companies,

which is,

like exciting,

but also

suddenly scary

because there's

like a,

you know, monopoly

kind of growing.

There's just a

few companies

that are the

leaders of AI,

and they're all in

Los Angeles or,

you know, connected

with San Francisco,

Silicon Valley.

But then there's

the Chinese

companies.

So but anyways,

Curious Refuge,

also Machine Cinema

machine cinema.

I'm collaborating

with them

on these two,

hackathons

called Gen Jams.

Machine Cinema has a,

weekly talk.

Anybody can sign in

to listen

to a conversation

between one

of the founders

of Machine Cinema

and a tool

or a company

or an artist

talking about

their process

and what they're doing.

They also have a

really cool, like,

podcast.

there's a global

AI community

on WhatsApp.

I think now,

because we're doing

these two

gen Jams in

Riyadh and Dubai

and next week

in Dubai,

we're going

to open up a

WhatsApp group

for MENA region.

And there,

there should be

a lot of resources.

What's interesting

is that the

base camp,

the main

WhatsApp

group, has,

I think,

now over

2000 people maybe

that whole conversation,

at the end

of every week

or month,

it's actually

synthesized

into a podcast

with AI.

So you can actually

just listen

to a shortened

version

of all the

interesting

insights from that.

It's sometimes

it's a chaotic conversation,

and people are sharing memes.

Sometimes

it's like, hey,

these are the

latest tools,

this is the

latest news.

And again,

I talked

a little bit

about this

on my talk.

But basically it is

it's community.

It's obviously

there's the

educational aspect

and you need that,

but there's

also just

the community

aspect

where you

share resources

and you can share

knowledge

and insights.

So it's like

Discord,

they do events.

but I realize

it's not here yet.

It's not in the

Middle East.

I hope we

benefit someone.

If there's one

AI filmmaker

who is advanced,

there's a film that

we need to watch

What do you recommend?

Oh, boy.

I don’t want to name the

usual suspects.

We probably

don't know

the usual suspects.

Well,

so I want to say.

Okay, so I'm curating

an AI section

at the

American Film

Festival in Poland,

and that's going to

be November 8th.

And so

I've basically,

worked with

the organizers there.

And there's eight films

It fills up

an hour block.

And this guy,

he's making

Hollywood level

films, short films.

He's called

Kavan the Kid.

And,

he has two

films out in this

like series

that he's made.

It's called

Echo Hunter

and it feels

like Hollywood.

It feels like

big budget.

whatever you say

about Hollywood

you love it

or leave it,

but it's very well done

like so well done

on a production level.

and he has also worked

with actors.

So, it’s a hybrid production

which is like the

the future.

and we’re showing his second film

which is

Echo Hunter 2.

Oh my gosh

the name escapes me now.

or the subtitle.

But it's

a 20 minute film.

It's available

online.

And it's so good

because it's so

like well done.

It just looks

so like

the technology is

there, we’re there

and it's a live-action as well.

It's not animation even.

Wow. Okay.

You said

the future

is hybrid.

Tell me a bit

about how you see

the future,

the near future.

Well, so

before, when we were talking

about our production,

which is a potential

animation, but

we can keep

all options

open still.

It's all so new

the future is

hybrid because

we want to work

with actors.

It's like,

you don't want to

just give

give it all away to

AI and like,

say like, oh,

I have an idea

and I will just do

everything for me.

It's like

the emotions come

through the actors

on the stage

or in front

of the camera.

And that's

still like the

entry point.

That’s the point of empathy.

It's like a

well done scene

that's like

you just

dive into it

and that's

with the actors.

The backgrounds,

the lights,

all of that

can be AI enhanced,

AI assisted.

Technically, you can do a romantic comedy

that has nothing to do with science fiction

because the Echo Hunter is very

like Blade Runner

feeling sci fi

dystopian future.

So, it almost fits

with AI

because you're using AI

to make AI

future films,

but technically

you can do

a romantic comedy

I hope we at least

keep the acting,

directing actors.

Yeah.

Do you like that part?

That’s the favorite part.

Yes. Isn't it?

yeah,

it starts there.

It's like

if you have

that connection

with the actors,

just like

you were saying

in the beginning,

you have to have

that connection

with whatever

collaborators.

Although Klaus Klinski and Werner Herzog

didn’t have a good relationship,

and they made

beautiful things

together.

I was talking

about my style.

Okay.

You know,

some people.

Like to

they like

that conflict.

They like to fight.

Yeah, they like,

I don't know.

And from the fight,

maybe good things come

Good things

come up.

Yeah. I'm.

I don't want

to fight.

I don't want

to fight.

Every day

is a fight.

And every day is a battle

I always say

we're making art.

We're not

responsible for

national security,

you know,

like, relax.

Yeah, wow,

some people,

like, put it

all together.

Sorry, what?

Oh!

Okay, we wrap it up?

Slowly?

How long have we been here?

I don’t know.

It’s still so nice to chat.

Yes, right?

We’ll keep going.

But honestly, this has been

insightful I think

This is very nice.

You just came out of nowhere

and just fit right in.

It was lovely to meet you.

So amazing to meet you as well.

Good luck on all of your projects.

Same to you.

All right.

Good. Great.

Thank you.

Thank you everybody